Communications and Digital Committee
Wednesday 15th July 2026
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11:58
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Wouldn't it be an amazing thing to do?And people would pay. And you know, we have BritBox in the US, which is all asking as you do some here. Um, why haven't we got iPlayer globally?Surely we could make that available to the world very well. But is is a smaller selection because of the rights ownership. And that's a that's a challenge. It's also an opportunity because the way we do rights since 2003, the Communications Act opening up all of our commissioning outside of news to third party independent producers, has created a huge industry of independent production, but they have now consolidated largely into scale players.
So we should think again about how those things work. So that's another example. There's the the broadcasters and platforms piece. There's actually the creative side of it. So we've got a creative powerhouse, but the dynamics are changing. How do we do that?And then thirdly, because of our investment across the UK, you know, I was in Cardiff and 25 years ago in Cardiff, aside from producing um, the daily soap, probably for S4. C there was no drama production.
The BBC chose to put Doctor Who there. 26 years later I visit Cardiff and I can see shows being made at the BBC Studios, an independent studio with productions from six streamers and networks including the BBC and being made. I go to Bad Wolf Studios, where we made the other Bennet sister and Doctor Who's Tardis sits waiting for the Next doctor, and a big Netflix show is being made there. And all of that. All of that is because of the investment that the BBC made in creating those skills in the industry.
So I think you have to zoom out and look again at the structure of competition, where we are today, and how do we do something bigger in the future. And the final point I'd made Steven Knight, the creator of Peaky Blinders, amongst other things, spoke to the Commons Select committee recently in the charter meeting, and he talked about, you know, when Netflix comes or he makes a show for Netflix or for Amazon, they might come and hire talent, which is helpful. Jobs are created or careers continue, but they don't leave behind any of the profit.
And you know, that's something we should be thinking about in how we structure our industry for the future. People want to come and work here because we've got great talent and incredible storytelling capabilities like Stephen's. But we should think again about the intellectual property and the value.
So we should think again about how those things work. So that's another example. There's the the broadcasters and platforms piece. There's actually the creative side of it. So we've got a creative powerhouse, but the dynamics are changing. How do we do that?And then thirdly, because of our investment across the UK, you know, I was in Cardiff and 25 years ago in Cardiff, aside from producing um, the daily soap, probably for S4. C there was no drama production.
The BBC chose to put Doctor Who there. 26 years later I visit Cardiff and I can see shows being made at the BBC Studios, an independent studio with productions from six streamers and networks including the BBC and being made. I go to Bad Wolf Studios, where we made the other Bennet sister and Doctor Who's Tardis sits waiting for the Next doctor, and a big Netflix show is being made there. And all of that. All of that is because of the investment that the BBC made in creating those skills in the industry.
So I think you have to zoom out and look again at the structure of competition, where we are today, and how do we do something bigger in the future. And the final point I'd made Steven Knight, the creator of Peaky Blinders, amongst other things, spoke to the Commons Select committee recently in the charter meeting, and he talked about, you know, when Netflix comes or he makes a show for Netflix or for Amazon, they might come and hire talent, which is helpful. Jobs are created or careers continue, but they don't leave behind any of the profit.
And you know, that's something we should be thinking about in how we structure our industry for the future. People want to come and work here because we've got great talent and incredible storytelling capabilities like Stephen's. But we should think again about the intellectual property and the value.
12:00
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
May I just add and reflect on the question you raised and particularly about iPlayer, and the desire for people to watch?I play around the world. Uh, Matt mentioned the point about rights, and I think that, uh, we know that the 2003 Communication Act gave the rights to independent producers. I myself benefited from it. Having been independent producer, and it was a very successful strategy. And we now have incredibly strong, talented, independent sector. But the rights question, the terms of trade falls into the same bucket as many of the other things we're going to discuss, which is the funding model, the governance structure, the regulatory, all terrific.
But they were done for a period in the past. That past is disappearing down the rear view window. We need to rethink all those areas as we create a new charter for the future. You know, that means everything should be rethought. What works for the what will enable the BBC to thrive and survive in the future and compete with the forces we've talked about on all these areas. Should we revisit the terms of trade, we must revisit the licence fee, must revisit the way we're regulated because they've done their job.
It's been very successful. But we need a new vision for that. And I'd just make one other point about that new vision. And that is and it comes through in some of these conversations, and I cannot emphasize more. The BBC is much more than a broadcaster. It is a public good. It has a role to play in the civic and cultural life of the nation. That's why we talked about what do we do with under 16 seconds?It is a role we have to play in all the roles.
We have to ensure that everything that we do in terms of our new charter supports that central idea that the BBC is much more than just a broadcaster, £180. Every household pays. Yes, it pays for the great content, but it also pays for reaching schools. It also pays for skills and training. It pays for a whole load of things, quite rightly, because that's what the licence fee payer wants, which is why our relationship to licence fee pays much more than just a transactional one, as it is with subscriptions.
It is an important. It's to do with our role in civic life.
But they were done for a period in the past. That past is disappearing down the rear view window. We need to rethink all those areas as we create a new charter for the future. You know, that means everything should be rethought. What works for the what will enable the BBC to thrive and survive in the future and compete with the forces we've talked about on all these areas. Should we revisit the terms of trade, we must revisit the licence fee, must revisit the way we're regulated because they've done their job.
It's been very successful. But we need a new vision for that. And I'd just make one other point about that new vision. And that is and it comes through in some of these conversations, and I cannot emphasize more. The BBC is much more than a broadcaster. It is a public good. It has a role to play in the civic and cultural life of the nation. That's why we talked about what do we do with under 16 seconds?It is a role we have to play in all the roles.
We have to ensure that everything that we do in terms of our new charter supports that central idea that the BBC is much more than just a broadcaster, £180. Every household pays. Yes, it pays for the great content, but it also pays for reaching schools. It also pays for skills and training. It pays for a whole load of things, quite rightly, because that's what the licence fee payer wants, which is why our relationship to licence fee pays much more than just a transactional one, as it is with subscriptions.
It is an important. It's to do with our role in civic life.
12:03
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Thank you. Um, can I come to you, Michael?Good afternoon. Now, um, thanks for coming and joining us. Um. Oh, by the way, your licence fee doesn't just pay for your iPlayer or television. It also pays for local and national radio, which is hugely important. Um, my question is to you, Matt. Um, when you gave evidence to the culture, Media and Sports Committee last week, you pointed out about recent market consolidation.
And we know of the. Public service broadcasters that channel five is owned by Paramount. We know that um sky. Is owned by Comcast and some might say bizarrely. Now of course um Sky is bidding or has in the frame for ITV. they've agreed were left in a sense with only two national. Public service broadcasters. Comcast has ambitions to take on Netflix as a streamer. How do you see that situation actually evolving or is it a crystal ball you don't really want to look in at the moment?
And we know of the. Public service broadcasters that channel five is owned by Paramount. We know that um sky. Is owned by Comcast and some might say bizarrely. Now of course um Sky is bidding or has in the frame for ITV. they've agreed were left in a sense with only two national. Public service broadcasters. Comcast has ambitions to take on Netflix as a streamer. How do you see that situation actually evolving or is it a crystal ball you don't really want to look in at the moment?
12:05
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
No, no. I mean, um, I guess a key point I'd like to get across if I haven't done that, clearly, apologies is globally changes in audience behaviour is what is driving all of this change in the industry. And um, the, the challenges the BBC faces are not different from the challenges that Sky and ITV and Comcast and so on. Face changing behaviours means that people need to have more scale in order to invest in reaching those audiences. And in the case of the commercial players, monetizing those audiences changing behaviours is one of the reasons that we have a shortfall in the licence fee funding versus where it was previously.
So, and by the way, you're right. I think to mention some of the things we haven't, which is, you know, local radio and radio more broadly, by the way, which is not covered. You know, you listen to radio, it's free. There isn't a licence fee connection there, which is a slight anomaly as well. But we reach, I think, 30 million people a week through our radio, local radio services and the Scottish, Irish and Welsh services. So the consolidation is all driven by the same forces.
What does that mean for the UK?As you rightly point out, Sky ITV will be owned by an American company. I'm impressed with the commitments they've laid out in terms of supporting local news and PSB content and two separate news services. But already, you know, there's some way behind the BBC in terms of we're the biggest funder of domestic content. We fund, I think, something like 86% of public service broadcast children's content. So we are in a world of jeopardy in terms of the British media ecosystem as well.
And as I say, I believe those forces will only get more powerful. And so we'll need public service, media and regulation and our brilliant creative skills to be able to succeed in that world. And that's why I'm trying to get across. This is not just about the BBC and the BBC, not just as a broadcaster. It's actually about national values, sovereignty, trust. I think has always done well is show us who we are and show the world who we are.
And actually the evidence from the World Service and our international reach and growth is that people want that around the world. People want that storytelling and people want that journalism.
So, and by the way, you're right. I think to mention some of the things we haven't, which is, you know, local radio and radio more broadly, by the way, which is not covered. You know, you listen to radio, it's free. There isn't a licence fee connection there, which is a slight anomaly as well. But we reach, I think, 30 million people a week through our radio, local radio services and the Scottish, Irish and Welsh services. So the consolidation is all driven by the same forces.
What does that mean for the UK?As you rightly point out, Sky ITV will be owned by an American company. I'm impressed with the commitments they've laid out in terms of supporting local news and PSB content and two separate news services. But already, you know, there's some way behind the BBC in terms of we're the biggest funder of domestic content. We fund, I think, something like 86% of public service broadcast children's content. So we are in a world of jeopardy in terms of the British media ecosystem as well.
And as I say, I believe those forces will only get more powerful. And so we'll need public service, media and regulation and our brilliant creative skills to be able to succeed in that world. And that's why I'm trying to get across. This is not just about the BBC and the BBC, not just as a broadcaster. It's actually about national values, sovereignty, trust. I think has always done well is show us who we are and show the world who we are.
And actually the evidence from the World Service and our international reach and growth is that people want that around the world. People want that storytelling and people want that journalism.
12:07
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
That's important. I mean, I just slightly worry that, um, we could follow what people want or we could lead to what we think they should have and what we offer them. And it's not just a question of, you know, just sort of sitting back and saying, oh, people want to spend all their time now streaming. Well, actually, there are other things that we should perhaps through innovation and change, uh, ensure that people perhaps do want. I mean, I'm a great advocate of local news, and I worry about the fact that in sort of 20 years, local news in my city has gone virtually.
And we've sat back and allowed that to happen. As a nation.
And we've sat back and allowed that to happen. As a nation.
12:08
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
I share your concern, and I think you're absolutely right. Um, we need to continue to be bold and brave in our journalism. That's why I said one of my three priorities was, um, editorial excellence and making sure we continue to innovate and be brave in what we're investigating, but also in the storytelling. Um, I worked actually in local news in local press 20 plus years ago, and I looked up ahead of the select committee last week when I was working in local press. There were around 9000 journalists employed by the biggest three local press companies.
There are now only 3000. Why is that?Well, because the economic model has changed. Uh, advertising, particularly recruitment advertising, which is high margin shifted online thanks to Craigslist in particular, at zero cost. The margin just collapsed. The same with motors, advertising and property advertising. And that led to an inability to fund local journalism. So the funding of the BBC in its journalism is really important. We also have to understand, I've been impressed by seeing what the colleagues at the BBC have done over recent years in across the UK, 60% of the BBC's network spend is outside London, 55% of staff are outside London.
And although we're sort of wedded to the historic transmitters in terms of our local radio network, 39 local radio stations in England alone, they've broadened the offer to ensure that there's digital content online in terms of local news and local services. His audience habits shift now. One of the challenges is to continue to support all those linear services, as well as supporting audiences where they are. And it's not just young people. You know, these habits. I suspect, around the room, many of us are going online for BBC news or enjoying local video and other reporting services.
There are now only 3000. Why is that?Well, because the economic model has changed. Uh, advertising, particularly recruitment advertising, which is high margin shifted online thanks to Craigslist in particular, at zero cost. The margin just collapsed. The same with motors, advertising and property advertising. And that led to an inability to fund local journalism. So the funding of the BBC in its journalism is really important. We also have to understand, I've been impressed by seeing what the colleagues at the BBC have done over recent years in across the UK, 60% of the BBC's network spend is outside London, 55% of staff are outside London.
And although we're sort of wedded to the historic transmitters in terms of our local radio network, 39 local radio stations in England alone, they've broadened the offer to ensure that there's digital content online in terms of local news and local services. His audience habits shift now. One of the challenges is to continue to support all those linear services, as well as supporting audiences where they are. And it's not just young people. You know, these habits. I suspect, around the room, many of us are going online for BBC news or enjoying local video and other reporting services.
12:10
12:10
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Ask a follow on question. Then, in that session with the Commons committee, you talked about how BBC could use its scale and its platform to ensure Channel Four's content could cut through. You specifically talked about channel four. Um, but Mike is quite rightly raising the issue about local news. And that's of concern.
12:10
12:10
12:11
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
So we already have the Local Democracy Reporting Service, and I visited them in Birmingham and spent some time with them. And that's an intervention that has produced over half a million stories that have been carried by a thousand local media organisations and about 165 journalists. As part of that collaboration with the industry. And that does lead to stories surfacing both on their apps and on BBC platforms. So I think there is more that could be done there. Obviously, the BBC, um, charter and its editorial guidelines and the, the standards to which it's rightly held by government differ than the standards to which other media organisations are held.
So one would have to be thoughtful about further developments in terms of standards and editorial. But I also think aside from those traditional media publishers, there are many, many local creators who are working with the platforms we mentioned earlier who want to work with the BBC. And my colleagues have had meetings across the country with many of those creators, and there's actually things that the BBC could learn from them, and there are things that they can learn from the BBC, so I'd be excited to extend that further.
With the right scope of charter and funding, I think we could go more local because you no longer need a capital intensive model to do the kinds of things that we used to do with studios and offices. As we saw during the pandemic. You know, we had people broadcasting from home and, um, the technology keeps advancing so that we can make very high quality video and audio content with much, much less investment. So I think a capital light model that allows us to get closer to the audiences where they are geographically is one that I'd see having real promise.
And the final point I make, um, for every pound we spend in the UK, it returns three and a half times that to the UK economy because it creates that that market. We have over 7000 suppliers that we support outside of the um independent. Sector. So there's real value for money for the Exchequer in continuing that investment. Equally there's jeopardy because for us to keep that investment out across the country has costs, there's duplication and so on which we try to minimise.
But it does have some cost.
So one would have to be thoughtful about further developments in terms of standards and editorial. But I also think aside from those traditional media publishers, there are many, many local creators who are working with the platforms we mentioned earlier who want to work with the BBC. And my colleagues have had meetings across the country with many of those creators, and there's actually things that the BBC could learn from them, and there are things that they can learn from the BBC, so I'd be excited to extend that further.
With the right scope of charter and funding, I think we could go more local because you no longer need a capital intensive model to do the kinds of things that we used to do with studios and offices. As we saw during the pandemic. You know, we had people broadcasting from home and, um, the technology keeps advancing so that we can make very high quality video and audio content with much, much less investment. So I think a capital light model that allows us to get closer to the audiences where they are geographically is one that I'd see having real promise.
And the final point I make, um, for every pound we spend in the UK, it returns three and a half times that to the UK economy because it creates that that market. We have over 7000 suppliers that we support outside of the um independent. Sector. So there's real value for money for the Exchequer in continuing that investment. Equally there's jeopardy because for us to keep that investment out across the country has costs, there's duplication and so on which we try to minimise.
But it does have some cost.
12:12
12:13
Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
Um, as you know, the the government have proposed the need to make economic growth a distinct public purpose in the next charter and your recent economic impact report demonstrates that the BBC already supports growth across the creative industries through its existing remit. What difference do you think making that distinct um, purpose?Would make?And what could you do if they do it that you can't do now?
12:13
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
I ask Matt to pursue that. But may I just say, first of all, and we've already mentioned it, that the BBC has been committed to growth and growing the economy, especially the cultural industries, for quite a long time now. We've done a great deal of work there, so in some ways I can say that, it sort of almost didn't need the public purpose because we were already doing it, and we have a lot of data out spend in out of London is huge. I my personal interest when I first started the chair, I was very keen that we really did turbocharge the.
Across the UK, uh, strategy, which we hadn't played out for some time. We've been very successful in moving programmes and production, and I'm keen now that we also move power, because the really important that power doesn't just stay in London, but there's power gets closer to the communities that we reach. So I think we are. And that drives growth. It's really important. If you look at the data about how much growth we drive by pushing out from London to all around the country.
So we're doing a great deal here. So I think that if it were to be a public purpose, I personally I'm open to it. But I would say we're already doing that. Um, I would, you know, I think there are other elements of the public purpose. We could talk about. Media literacy, for example, could be part of it in terms of our public purpose of supporting learning. I think it's a really important role for the BBC to play.
It's new because of the rise of disinformation, misinformation. So my own view is that we do this a great deal. Um, we don't necessarily need a further public purpose for us to do it because it's good for the BBC. It matters. It's part of our role.
Across the UK, uh, strategy, which we hadn't played out for some time. We've been very successful in moving programmes and production, and I'm keen now that we also move power, because the really important that power doesn't just stay in London, but there's power gets closer to the communities that we reach. So I think we are. And that drives growth. It's really important. If you look at the data about how much growth we drive by pushing out from London to all around the country.
So we're doing a great deal here. So I think that if it were to be a public purpose, I personally I'm open to it. But I would say we're already doing that. Um, I would, you know, I think there are other elements of the public purpose. We could talk about. Media literacy, for example, could be part of it in terms of our public purpose of supporting learning. I think it's a really important role for the BBC to play.
It's new because of the rise of disinformation, misinformation. So my own view is that we do this a great deal. Um, we don't necessarily need a further public purpose for us to do it because it's good for the BBC. It matters. It's part of our role.
12:15
12:16
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Um, I think it depends on the detail. And I'd say, you know, in the Green paper, you know, the BBC before my time in the response to the Green Paper, the BBC declared, as Samir said, being very open to this coming in, I would be personally a little bit more cautious because I do think growth is an outcome. And the purposes of the BBC are about its purpose and so impartial news and information, supporting learning, creative industry, community representation, reflecting the UK. They feel to me like a different order of magnitude.
And having worked in business, I always was very concerned when I found a business that said their purpose was shareholder value. Actually, your purpose should be delighting your customers, serving your audiences, serving your readers, and so on. And, um, shareholder value is an outcome from doing that well. So I'm a bit more concerned about that. And Samir says, I think the, what we're seeing is an outcome in terms of growth that's really positive, and reporting on that is good. Um, so my only concern would be adding sort of dilution to the focus that we need to have at the moment and possibly bureaucracy and reporting.
But I think we could agree how best to do that. So open to it. But, but bear in mind, I think it's a different order to the central purposes that are so critical to public service today.
And having worked in business, I always was very concerned when I found a business that said their purpose was shareholder value. Actually, your purpose should be delighting your customers, serving your audiences, serving your readers, and so on. And, um, shareholder value is an outcome from doing that well. So I'm a bit more concerned about that. And Samir says, I think the, what we're seeing is an outcome in terms of growth that's really positive, and reporting on that is good. Um, so my only concern would be adding sort of dilution to the focus that we need to have at the moment and possibly bureaucracy and reporting.
But I think we could agree how best to do that. So open to it. But, but bear in mind, I think it's a different order to the central purposes that are so critical to public service today.
12:17
12:17
12:17
12:17
Speaker 6
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Speaker 6
Um. I think. A number of us would agree with you that, um. A blanket commitment to growth could just end up with a stick to beat the BBC. Um, and that. To achieving growth is. An objective for government and for the nation, which the BBC will report and reflect on. But, um, I think you're um skepticism about um. We're all in favour of growth. Um so why make it one of those things that.
the BBC is failing on or. I'm not. I. Much more I think um in. Is the whole concept of supporting growth. Um if I. I mean, I agree with the. What the chairman has just said, you know, the licence fee isn't just. Just for a subscription subscription to the broadcaster, it is the broad contribution. To um. Our activities as a liberal democracy with the access to, to debate underpinned by a trust in the the news services that you provide.
Um one question. It does, uh, in another part of the forest, this committee is looking at the impact impact on artificial intelligence. And it seems to me that this is an area where the BBC using. Its old reithian. Mantra to educate could be very useful and the implications of artificial. Intelligence.
the BBC is failing on or. I'm not. I. Much more I think um in. Is the whole concept of supporting growth. Um if I. I mean, I agree with the. What the chairman has just said, you know, the licence fee isn't just. Just for a subscription subscription to the broadcaster, it is the broad contribution. To um. Our activities as a liberal democracy with the access to, to debate underpinned by a trust in the the news services that you provide.
Um one question. It does, uh, in another part of the forest, this committee is looking at the impact impact on artificial intelligence. And it seems to me that this is an area where the BBC using. Its old reithian. Mantra to educate could be very useful and the implications of artificial. Intelligence.
12:20
12:20
Speaker 6
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Speaker 6
One, it's coming down the track to you. Okay. I'm not sure what else I need to ask then. Just just to respond, there is a specific question on you, quite rightly, uh, Matt mentioned the importance. Of journalism. And a number of our colleagues are, um. Very, very interested. The BBC news. One of the things that. We find often from um, critics of the BBC is I know, uh, I exclude the one that's had 27 years, but people I know all about the BBC.
I was trained by the BBC, that pipeline of trained journalists has been a victim of some of the cutbacks. And I just wonder, in your vision of the BBC taking forward how far it is willing to, um, look at the skills and development of, um that. Broader sustainable pipeline of journalism talents across the UK.
I was trained by the BBC, that pipeline of trained journalists has been a victim of some of the cutbacks. And I just wonder, in your vision of the BBC taking forward how far it is willing to, um, look at the skills and development of, um that. Broader sustainable pipeline of journalism talents across the UK.
12:21
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
I think we're throwing into, into, into all the questions that people are going to ask to. I think that we are going to come on to that in a moment. I think I think you have covered. Let me just ask you a different question about purpose. I think we were, um, trying to get to the point about in terms. Of what I just said, whether growth purpose pushes you to prioritise commercially exportable content or measurable economic impact. But I think you've given us a given.
12:22
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
That would be the concern if you're focused on growth, then Newsround and the local journalism and investment in things like training might be deprioritized in favour of bigger shows that you could sell internationally in favour of the larger scale productions. And, you know, I haven't got all of the economics, every type of show that we do, but I think you would be at risk of losing some of the key public purpose things that Samir talked about.
12:22
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Yeah. Thank you. Um, I just want to touch on something you mentioned music and musicians, which I was glad to hear. And the BBC has this important role as the largest employer of musicians and the biggest commissioner of new music in the UK, and particularly have always played a role in championing new talent. The young musician BBC introducing um is the latest thing of singing the Music Education Initiative. But when I read your economic Impact report, that important role just didn't seem to be covered.
And the.
And the.
12:23
12:23
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
There is a mention of it in the, in the, in the, what you've just published. Um, I mean, I could say I was an MP in Salford and when the BBC moved to Salford, um having the BBC Philharmonic there, working with our communities, working with our schools, opening themselves up with their concerts was, was a remarkable thing. And, and it really has a lot of impact on, on a community to have those musicians there. And it makes a difference to what can be achieved locally.
So why don't you mention it?You need to you need to play it off.
So why don't you mention it?You need to you need to play it off.
12:23
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
The report was written before I joined, but I can tell you that, um, I went to Salford on the first week that I started to tour the country before taking the role. And one of my greatest joys actually, was I had the opportunity to sit in a rehearsal of the orchestra and to see the talent and the commitment. There was phenomenal, phenomenal. I think I, like many licence fee payers, hadn't realised the BBC was, I think, perhaps the second biggest employer of musicians.
12:24
12:24
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Well, I think after the military. Um but but you know, it's pretty big and I think most licence fee payers would have had as I had little idea of that. I also, by the way, went to. And this is an important part of what the BBC has done, I think incredibly well. I went to join the radio three breakfast programme, um hosted by Tom McKinney in Salford, and it was a joy I discovered, not the 9:00 news. If anyone stressed.
And at 9:00 they want an antidote to the news, they're not. The 9:00 news is a wonderful, relaxing piece of classical music. So I absolutely agree with you. And by the way, this week we kick off the world's largest and longest running classical music festival and the Proms. Um, and I think the impact of our music operations obviously shapes the UK and it's a big and important intervention. Again, we need to ensure that it can be funded and protected under the licence fee.
And of course, it's not just classical music. You think about radio one big weekend that was in Sunderland recently, radio two in the park, uh, which is going ahead in Stirling in September. And these things bring people together and an important public purpose in these divided times is the role that we play and other public service broadcasters in bringing people together. Music is a key part of that. It creates economic value. Those in the park and big weekends typically generate three, four, five, 6 million for the local economy, as well as obviously, a huge moment of togetherness, as does sport.
You know, we're facing some sport later today, but I was staggered. We had a bet, Samir and I, about what the overnight audience for the Mexico England game would be.
And at 9:00 they want an antidote to the news, they're not. The 9:00 news is a wonderful, relaxing piece of classical music. So I absolutely agree with you. And by the way, this week we kick off the world's largest and longest running classical music festival and the Proms. Um, and I think the impact of our music operations obviously shapes the UK and it's a big and important intervention. Again, we need to ensure that it can be funded and protected under the licence fee.
And of course, it's not just classical music. You think about radio one big weekend that was in Sunderland recently, radio two in the park, uh, which is going ahead in Stirling in September. And these things bring people together and an important public purpose in these divided times is the role that we play and other public service broadcasters in bringing people together. Music is a key part of that. It creates economic value. Those in the park and big weekends typically generate three, four, five, 6 million for the local economy, as well as obviously, a huge moment of togetherness, as does sport.
You know, we're facing some sport later today, but I was staggered. We had a bet, Samir and I, about what the overnight audience for the Mexico England game would be.
12:26
12:26
12:26
12:26
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
9.1 million. Yes. And then another 5 million. Who watched it on catch up. And then another one point something million. Who watched it replayed on BBC two. Fingers in the ears don't hear the score beforehand. So these moments are really important in a fragmenting world. And that's one of the things that could be in jeopardy if we're at the mercy of other platforms and we aren't able to continue that sort of investment.
Chair.
Chair.
12:27
12:27
12:27
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
And I do think that gathering the nation, bringing the country together is a very important role the BBC plays in our civic life. And, you know, we can all guess how many are going to turn up tonight, and it will be quite something. Yes. It's true. It's a really important part. We can't lose it. It's a really important events.
12:28
12:28
Speaker 7
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Speaker 7
Yeah, we'll have to get away from debating the sporting events bill in order to watch it later. Um, I want to reflect on R&D and the role of the BBC. And I want to start with you, Doctor Shah, because I'm going back into the past briefly before handing over to Lionel to take us into the future. Um, the, the green paper tells us that the BBC's R&D spend has fallen under the current charter. The previous one had a public purpose on emerging technologies.
Has that removal played a part in the decline in the role of the BBC in Emerging technologies, I.
Has that removal played a part in the decline in the role of the BBC in Emerging technologies, I.
12:29
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
I don't think they're connected. I think, first of all, when you say decline in the BBC, I think we've already discussed why licence fee payers are leaving and because of changing audience behaviour. I would say at the latest statistics that 94% of the British population consume BBC every month. So I challenge the decline. The key thing there are only 80% of the households pay for it. So there's a gap we need to bridge. I think the technology and Matt can talk more authoritatively about it.
Yes. In our history, in the history, we were leaders in technology and innovation. You know, right from the start, we led it from radio to television to I mean, we just I lived through quite a bit of it myself. You know, when we went to color, you know, I, we all remember Wimbledon in color. The world has changed. I mean.
Yes. In our history, in the history, we were leaders in technology and innovation. You know, right from the start, we led it from radio to television to I mean, we just I lived through quite a bit of it myself. You know, when we went to color, you know, I, we all remember Wimbledon in color. The world has changed. I mean.
12:30
12:30
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
But, you know, we talk about this a lot, but the world really has changed. If you look at the money that's being put into let's talk about artificial intelligence, we can't match it. I mean, seriously, we're talking trillions of dollars of money being poured in by the big tech players. We don't have anything like that. So as the technology, which is going to be very important, and I'm actually I'm an optimist about AI, I think we can harness AI to human creativity.
I don't think it's a, you know, an evil thing that we need to contain, but we need to be realistic. We don't have the money to develop AI to compete with us, but we need to. I think there's a role and Matt can talk about the role we can play in modern technology and how we can harness it. But I think the days when we could develop our own large language model, a BBC. I don't think so.
I don't think it's a, you know, an evil thing that we need to contain, but we need to be realistic. We don't have the money to develop AI to compete with us, but we need to. I think there's a role and Matt can talk about the role we can play in modern technology and how we can harness it. But I think the days when we could develop our own large language model, a BBC. I don't think so.
12:31
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Yeah. We'll perhaps come on to AI. I know that people can. I just address your first part of your question, which is, you know, as I come into the BBC, someone's rightly right to say, you know, the BBC harnessed technology and creativity together with radio, with television, and then with streaming. And I think in recent years, as the challenges of funding have appeared, you know, we've lost 1.3 billion of public service funding in the last ten years. The management team has focused on content and channels and services, so keeping the content as high quality as possible.
And you can see that in a BAFTA wins and in audience responses and so on, and keeping as many channels and services active as possible. I think that's been at the expense of technology investment. There are some great people in the BBC who are brilliant technicians and engineers. Um, but I think as I mentioned, things like recommendations, the news app and so on could be better. So I think there's been a choice made in that respect. Does that.
And you can see that in a BAFTA wins and in audience responses and so on, and keeping as many channels and services active as possible. I think that's been at the expense of technology investment. There are some great people in the BBC who are brilliant technicians and engineers. Um, but I think as I mentioned, things like recommendations, the news app and so on could be better. So I think there's been a choice made in that respect. Does that.
12:32
12:32
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Well, um, let's move on to AI. So I think thing one is there's been less investment in some of the technology areas than there could have been to maintain the user experience part of it. If you move on to AI, it's a very broad field. I think, you know, I'm wary of experts in the room, but I've worked with, uh, Google DeepMind and many colleagues over many years in this field. It's the application of AI to specific areas that will be both risky and beneficial to society.
And Samir rightly says, you know, we are not going to in the UK suddenly magic up a multi-trillion dollar, you know, foundation model or, um, you know. Anything of that scale, what we have the opportunity to do and what I'm keen for us to try to do at the BBC is to pioneer in the application of AI. To improve what we can offer, you know, in public service, you know, your lordships will be looking at this in the public sector completely, uh, but also to understand the risks of AI.
And I think there are really serious risks around information integrity, data security, media literacy. The corruption of content, the generation of fakes. We actually have to be using these technologies and our teams do, but I think we're going to need to do more in order to benefit our audiences, but also to maintain the integrity of our journalism.
And Samir rightly says, you know, we are not going to in the UK suddenly magic up a multi-trillion dollar, you know, foundation model or, um, you know. Anything of that scale, what we have the opportunity to do and what I'm keen for us to try to do at the BBC is to pioneer in the application of AI. To improve what we can offer, you know, in public service, you know, your lordships will be looking at this in the public sector completely, uh, but also to understand the risks of AI.
And I think there are really serious risks around information integrity, data security, media literacy. The corruption of content, the generation of fakes. We actually have to be using these technologies and our teams do, but I think we're going to need to do more in order to benefit our audiences, but also to maintain the integrity of our journalism.
12:33
Speaker 8
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Speaker 8
Well thank you. What a long lead into AI. But, um, I'll come on to AI one. General, a couple of general questions first. Um, but before that, even, um, what I wanted to say is, um. Worked in AI research for the last three decades as a professor of electrical engineering in Oxford. The reason why I mentioned that is as a department of engineering science at Oxford, we're very proud that one of our alumni is a former director general, John Birt.
We trained as an Oxford engineer. Um, actually he was in the house yesterday, spoke in the um. Cyber Security and Resilience Bill debate, second reading yesterday. So it's very nice to have two director generals in the House of Lords on consecutive days. Um and indeed in the three decades that have been. Professor, we've trained many engineers who've gone on to work in the R&D department, the BBC, perhaps fewer in the last few years, as we've just discussed. But looking forward, obviously I'm biased in terms of R&D, but your commitment to R&D innovation.
Looking forward, do you think it should be included in the BBC's public purposes?And if so, how do you frame that?Um, how should it be framed so that the BBC innovation actually serves public interests to make sure that it. Does that mean?
We trained as an Oxford engineer. Um, actually he was in the house yesterday, spoke in the um. Cyber Security and Resilience Bill debate, second reading yesterday. So it's very nice to have two director generals in the House of Lords on consecutive days. Um and indeed in the three decades that have been. Professor, we've trained many engineers who've gone on to work in the R&D department, the BBC, perhaps fewer in the last few years, as we've just discussed. But looking forward, obviously I'm biased in terms of R&D, but your commitment to R&D innovation.
Looking forward, do you think it should be included in the BBC's public purposes?And if so, how do you frame that?Um, how should it be framed so that the BBC innovation actually serves public interests to make sure that it. Does that mean?
12:35
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
I think the application of technology in the fields in which we work should be critical to the BBC's future?I think on the purpose, and I may be in a different place from from the green Paper response. It also feels to me that this is a means, not an end, and I think the purpose is having clarity in a time of uncertainty. The greater clarity you have that the easier it is for an organisation to galvanize behind it. So I think just like growth is an output, I think harnessing technology well is a how we fulfill our purposes, not a purpose in and of itself.
But I'm open to debating that because I do think we are part of critical national infrastructure. And I do think the BBC, subject to sufficient funding, should be working with the security services, with the government around information integrity. You know, there are questions about identity and logins and all of those kind of things that we encounter in our everyday lives. And there's a question about, you know, who we should trust to do these things. And so I do think there's a big opportunity for us to think strategically as a nation at this moment.
But I'm open to debating that because I do think we are part of critical national infrastructure. And I do think the BBC, subject to sufficient funding, should be working with the security services, with the government around information integrity. You know, there are questions about identity and logins and all of those kind of things that we encounter in our everyday lives. And there's a question about, you know, who we should trust to do these things. And so I do think there's a big opportunity for us to think strategically as a nation at this moment.
12:36
12:36
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
As I say, I think we should be open to discussing the modernised remit for the BBC. We absolutely are. We've got lots of detailed sessions with the department coming up through the summer pretty intensively. Um, I personally believe the purpose, which is an enduring purpose around serving audiences and the sort of five we have, is a helpful, um, and clear purpose for the BBC. Harnessing technology, delivering growth, delighting audiences, enhancing our reputation internationally. These are all outcomes. That we that we achieve by doing that well.
And I think we fulfil our purposes well. We will automatically be embracing these these things. So a specific remit, I think I would want to understand the cost implications and the capability needs to support that and how that would impact, you know, bite size and classical music and all the other services, which we need to provide.
And I think we fulfil our purposes well. We will automatically be embracing these these things. So a specific remit, I think I would want to understand the cost implications and the capability needs to support that and how that would impact, you know, bite size and classical music and all the other services, which we need to provide.
12:37
Speaker 8
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Speaker 8
Okay. Well, bite size will feature in, in my, my question next, because we finally come to AI. Now, I'm going to disagree with you about trillions of dollars for models, because it's becoming increasingly clear that, in fact, three types of AI models, there's the ones you mentioned, the frontier AI models, the ones that, um, Mr. Britton would be familiar with, uh, Gemini from Google. And they do take trillions of dollars to, to train and keep them in the frontier. Absolutely. There's the open source or more likely open weight models like Gemma and so on.
But there's a third category, which has been very much discussed in the House of Lords recently, which is sovereign AI models, not at the frontier, maybe 6 to 8 months beyond the frontier that would take over the order of millions of dollars or pounds to train. And indeed, um, as senior advisor to the um National Eye Institute, the institute, we've been discussing that and have been to see the BBC, Peter Archer to, to discuss that with you. So where do you think the BBC plays in that kind of spectrum?Um, would you want to, um that capability to own it or do we want to partner, procure or adapt?
But there's a third category, which has been very much discussed in the House of Lords recently, which is sovereign AI models, not at the frontier, maybe 6 to 8 months beyond the frontier that would take over the order of millions of dollars or pounds to train. And indeed, um, as senior advisor to the um National Eye Institute, the institute, we've been discussing that and have been to see the BBC, Peter Archer to, to discuss that with you. So where do you think the BBC plays in that kind of spectrum?Um, would you want to, um that capability to own it or do we want to partner, procure or adapt?
12:38
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
And that's what I was intervening with. Doctor Charles was talking about this. I think you're right. And it's not sort of common public parlance to talk about these things in these ways. So when I'm talking about the application of AI, I'm really talking about in the area you mentioned there. And I think, you know, there are really things the BBC is doing, and I talk to colleagues in other newsrooms around the world using tools that are like notebook LLM, for example, allowing you to upload and research documents using large language capabilities, but without the hallucination concerns.
So there are tools off the shelf that we can and should use, and we should do more. And actually partnering with other members of the European Broadcasting Union and other big. Newsrooms around the world is something that I've begun those conversations. Um, I think you're sort of implication is sort of buy or build in some of these things. I do think there's an opportunity for us. I think it would need to be in partnership to, to participate in building a sovereign model.
I also think that that would only have impact for the UK if it was to partner with a program around skill development. So I think we're in mind. I can tell what would a 21st century version of the BBC microcomputer project look like?Is there a a sovereign model and a programme of education and training and exploration?Who would you need to work with in order to do this?What's the sovereign infrastructure that one would need in order to promote it?And I think, you know, that might involve working.
I spoke the other day with the CEO at BT. You know, as we're talking about digital switchover and IPTV, all of these things come together. And as I say, um, this moment of jeopardy, but also opportunity for us in the UK to be brilliant at bringing our engineering, scientific and creative industries together around sovereign AI and the application of other AI models. As you suggest. Lloyd Tarasenko.
So there are tools off the shelf that we can and should use, and we should do more. And actually partnering with other members of the European Broadcasting Union and other big. Newsrooms around the world is something that I've begun those conversations. Um, I think you're sort of implication is sort of buy or build in some of these things. I do think there's an opportunity for us. I think it would need to be in partnership to, to participate in building a sovereign model.
I also think that that would only have impact for the UK if it was to partner with a program around skill development. So I think we're in mind. I can tell what would a 21st century version of the BBC microcomputer project look like?Is there a a sovereign model and a programme of education and training and exploration?Who would you need to work with in order to do this?What's the sovereign infrastructure that one would need in order to promote it?And I think, you know, that might involve working.
I spoke the other day with the CEO at BT. You know, as we're talking about digital switchover and IPTV, all of these things come together. And as I say, um, this moment of jeopardy, but also opportunity for us in the UK to be brilliant at bringing our engineering, scientific and creative industries together around sovereign AI and the application of other AI models. As you suggest. Lloyd Tarasenko.
12:41
Speaker 8
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Speaker 8
Yeah, well, I think we're all on the same page. I think the one thing that has been mentioned in sovereign, um, you mentioned trustworthiness. And I think the key thing, which is important to remember about these, which would be different from Gemini or Gemma, is that you'd have full control of the training data set and you would train the model according to UK law. And trustworthiness is very much part of what the BBC does. So it needs to be in the conversation without necessarily designing the model itself.
12:41
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
I agree, and I think, you know, one of the things that we're concerned about with the BBC is, you know, the public tells us they want us to be independent of government. And so part of charter is about that. So I think one would need to think in a project like that about the role of government and other bodies in building and earning that that public trust. But I think there's a big opportunity.
12:41
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
I would hesitate to to interrupt conversations to people who know a great deal more about AI than I do, but acting in the public interest. I think your point about trustworthiness is really central to it. The public rely upon the BBC to help them through this new world of technology, and I think we need to maintain whatever our relationship, whatever the partnerships, make, that central value. The BBC has to be trusted by the public needs to remain there. I think that's really important.
12:42
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
I need to move on to the next couple of questions. If that's, um so it's Diana. Baroness Kane has some questions around skills and um. Yes. Uh, and, and nations and regions. Um, hello. Um, and the BBC, obviously you say it, uh, others say it too recognised as the venture capital for the creative industries. Recognised as the cornerstone of the creative industries and the current charter. Obviously requires you to serve the UK's nations and regions and to support the creative economy across the UK.
It also requires you to collaboratively work with a wide range of organisations, um, whether that's in the public interest. Um so in many ways arguably that is your growth. Agenda within the charter. Uh, is that one that you would still see as being relevant to your future?I know you said to the Commons that you were terribly excited about, and you both articulated the progress and the work with the nations and regions.
It also requires you to collaboratively work with a wide range of organisations, um, whether that's in the public interest. Um so in many ways arguably that is your growth. Agenda within the charter. Uh, is that one that you would still see as being relevant to your future?I know you said to the Commons that you were terribly excited about, and you both articulated the progress and the work with the nations and regions.
12:43
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Yes, absolutely. I mentioned a couple of things that had surprised and delighted me about, um, you know, traveling across the country. And one was the real progress that had been made, you know, in a world where I think rightly, sort of looking at devolution in order to respond to uncertainty and to serve people, uh, by understanding their needs better wherever they may be, the BBC is actually doing incredibly well with, as I said, 60% of network spend and 55% of staff outside of London. Um, since I've joined, we have another two commissioners who will be based outside London.
I've appointed a deputy director general who's based outside London. And so I think, you know, the leadership team being more decentralized than the people making decisions around commissioning content really important. And that's what gives you the Cardiff story, the Salford story, similar stories in Glasgow and elsewhere. To sustain that, though, we do need the funding and the other part of our growth strategy needs to be BBC Studios and our commercial growth. So we need to complement the public funding with as much commercial revenue as we can do within the scope of the charter and remit.
I've appointed a deputy director general who's based outside London. And so I think, you know, the leadership team being more decentralized than the people making decisions around commissioning content really important. And that's what gives you the Cardiff story, the Salford story, similar stories in Glasgow and elsewhere. To sustain that, though, we do need the funding and the other part of our growth strategy needs to be BBC Studios and our commercial growth. So we need to complement the public funding with as much commercial revenue as we can do within the scope of the charter and remit.
12:44
12:44
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
I mean, hugely because since 2003, you know, Producer Choice and its successive changes to terms of trade mean that, you know, we are putting our commissioning out to tender all the time. So Mia mentioned he and others have benefited from that. And it's created an incredibly vibrant production sector. That sector has consolidated. We see Banerjee in all three media coming together to create a 5 million revenue business. And that's partly because, um, the. Funding for original content had a boom as the streamers kind of invested heavily in acquisition of, of new subscribers.
And that's fallen away a bit. And we face the same ourselves in BBC Studios, which is our commercial competitor. So what I'm excited about is the next generation of independent producers as well as, you know, the fantastic skills within the existing. So smaller content creators in audio and video and drama and music that we could work with. And we've seen that when we've, um, run sessions across the country. I also think that could allow us to operate in a capital lighter way.
As I mentioned earlier before. Yeah. So I hope that we can do that.
And that's fallen away a bit. And we face the same ourselves in BBC Studios, which is our commercial competitor. So what I'm excited about is the next generation of independent producers as well as, you know, the fantastic skills within the existing. So smaller content creators in audio and video and drama and music that we could work with. And we've seen that when we've, um, run sessions across the country. I also think that could allow us to operate in a capital lighter way.
As I mentioned earlier before. Yeah. So I hope that we can do that.
12:46
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Yeah. Owning rights obviously allows those companies to scale up. Um, and therefore to succeed and move on and move forward. Um, I think you mentioned as well in the Commons session that you were potentially looking at size, uh, as perhaps a variant in relation to the rights issues, um, going forward, because it seems to me that potentially there might be a tension between growing the economies in the nations and regions and removing rights from independent producers. So just giving you the opportunity to clarify, because I think, I think there is potentially concern and confusion about some of what's been said.
12:46
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Not, not intention to sell any concern and confusion, but also probably asking, answering a lot of questions briefly. So thank you for the chance to do that. Um, look, firstly, we should recognise the huge success of that sector. We partner with it, we work with it every day and we really support it. So we want to disrupt that in any way. What I was trying to make, the point was if you zoom out and look at the UK, as we've tried to do on a number of the questions that your lordships have asked, um, we need to think strategically about our industry and how we can together make changes to how the economics, rights and opportunities work so that we can continue to punch above our weight as a creative industry as a whole.
I'm conscious of the BBC has a role as one of the key cornerstones of that industry, but it's only a part of the industry and the commercial competition, and the innovation is part of it. I think also coming from where I come from, we should not just see it as those players, all of these new types of content creators. There's lots of innovation in local journalism, as you all know as well. I think we should sort of be rather. Expansive in our thinking.
But I also do, do need we do need to think about scale and how do we introduce the next generation of production success as well.
I'm conscious of the BBC has a role as one of the key cornerstones of that industry, but it's only a part of the industry and the commercial competition, and the innovation is part of it. I think also coming from where I come from, we should not just see it as those players, all of these new types of content creators. There's lots of innovation in local journalism, as you all know as well. I think we should sort of be rather. Expansive in our thinking.
But I also do, do need we do need to think about scale and how do we introduce the next generation of production success as well.
12:48
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Okay, great. And then moving on in terms of next generations, if I could move to the skills and training issues, because again, we've heard from witnesses and it's known that the BBC is an incredibly important part of that sort of training and skills infrastructure. Um, so everybody recognizes that. But interestingly, nobody seemed to pick up on the, the difference that and the mistake that was made in the DCMs green paper, which said that the BBC spent £10 million on training. And your response to that paper, which said 45 million.
So in effect, the DCMs Green Paper is wrong. My point is that nobody picked up on it. And I think in a way that relates to the focus that potentially is given to skills and training agenda, not in terms of investment but in terms of purpose and in terms of strategy. So basically we have talked to other public service broadcasters. They identified as an area where they collaborate across the industry with you. But nevertheless, there are still huge skills gaps and shortages within the workforce, even though there's underemployment at the moment.
Um, so in your response to charter review, you talk about 1000 apprentices, which is marvellous. Um, but what's the missing link?Where is the strategy?Is the strategy being developed in partnership with others in the industry?Is it actually addressing the skills gaps and shortages that are there.
So in effect, the DCMs Green Paper is wrong. My point is that nobody picked up on it. And I think in a way that relates to the focus that potentially is given to skills and training agenda, not in terms of investment but in terms of purpose and in terms of strategy. So basically we have talked to other public service broadcasters. They identified as an area where they collaborate across the industry with you. But nevertheless, there are still huge skills gaps and shortages within the workforce, even though there's underemployment at the moment.
Um, so in your response to charter review, you talk about 1000 apprentices, which is marvellous. Um, but what's the missing link?Where is the strategy?Is the strategy being developed in partnership with others in the industry?Is it actually addressing the skills gaps and shortages that are there.
12:49
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Can I let me just begin with that and I'll let Matt follow up. I think the first thing to say is, I'm very pleased that you raised this, because we've discussed before, and I've said quite a lot, that the BBC is much more than a broadcaster and one of its key roles is this skills and training. I mean, I see it in the board seats. The BBC sees it. That is absolutely central to our purpose to develop the workforce that underpins the creative industry.
That is central to what we do. In addition to being a broadcaster. Um, at a at a general level, I'm aware that our skills and training goes across board. We go to schools in what are called taster days, where we try especially disadvantaged schools to get them to enter the pipeline. We have the apprentice scheme for older people, and it's worth saying, although a thousand we have 1000. Last year, 47,000 people applied for it. You see, the demand is much greater.
And then later on when you enter the industry, we have a whole load, a load of training, masterclasses, all sorts of writers workshops to try and develop it. So I think we have a great commitment to skills and training because we want to create the next generation of pipeline. It's a really important part of what we do. The number I have here is 47 million, but I think we could do more. Let me just address that. Thousand apprentices and 47,000 applying training costs.
And we have to have a funding model. I'm sorry. It goes back to to money, but I'm really we do need to continue. We can't take the talent pipeline for granted. We need to develop it, to build it and to build it around the country. Not just but but that will cost. And it's part of our civic duty to do that. So I have a little thing about other streams that come in, fly in, fly out, live off our talent and don't contribute.
But we do have to do this. I want to.
That is central to what we do. In addition to being a broadcaster. Um, at a at a general level, I'm aware that our skills and training goes across board. We go to schools in what are called taster days, where we try especially disadvantaged schools to get them to enter the pipeline. We have the apprentice scheme for older people, and it's worth saying, although a thousand we have 1000. Last year, 47,000 people applied for it. You see, the demand is much greater.
And then later on when you enter the industry, we have a whole load, a load of training, masterclasses, all sorts of writers workshops to try and develop it. So I think we have a great commitment to skills and training because we want to create the next generation of pipeline. It's a really important part of what we do. The number I have here is 47 million, but I think we could do more. Let me just address that. Thousand apprentices and 47,000 applying training costs.
And we have to have a funding model. I'm sorry. It goes back to to money, but I'm really we do need to continue. We can't take the talent pipeline for granted. We need to develop it, to build it and to build it around the country. Not just but but that will cost. And it's part of our civic duty to do that. So I have a little thing about other streams that come in, fly in, fly out, live off our talent and don't contribute.
But we do have to do this. I want to.
12:52
12:52
12:52
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Maybe we should have spotted it in the draft anyway. But um the good news is it's bigger than the report says. The bad news is there's still a big skills gap. I know you've a lifetime of working in skills and um, I share your passion personally as I've, as I've mentioned, um, as Samir says, I'd love us to do more. It does require funding, but also requires collaboration and partnership. And I'm struck by the fact that we have 45 different industry schemes ongoing.
And I on arrival, when I started to look at this, I worried that we were sort of subscale in a number of areas. And actually what we need to do is think again about the scale of our intervention. And I'd love to talk to you and other experts about this. I mean, I'm only I'm just short of two months in. So it will be a priority. Yeah. Um, and the talent of the industry and one of the other things, I think as we reinvent the BBC for the future is we'll have to do the fact that we have to make savings.
And that means job losses means it's harder for us to employ people. But the size and shape of the BBC for the future needs to be one which will attract young and rising talent and offer them the chance to build and grow their careers. So we have to sort of deal with that conundrum as well. And I think that's why I'm encouraging us to think at an industry level collectively. Um, so that, you know, with government so that we can think about how we create those jobs of the future together.
And I on arrival, when I started to look at this, I worried that we were sort of subscale in a number of areas. And actually what we need to do is think again about the scale of our intervention. And I'd love to talk to you and other experts about this. I mean, I'm only I'm just short of two months in. So it will be a priority. Yeah. Um, and the talent of the industry and one of the other things, I think as we reinvent the BBC for the future is we'll have to do the fact that we have to make savings.
And that means job losses means it's harder for us to employ people. But the size and shape of the BBC for the future needs to be one which will attract young and rising talent and offer them the chance to build and grow their careers. So we have to sort of deal with that conundrum as well. And I think that's why I'm encouraging us to think at an industry level collectively. Um, so that, you know, with government so that we can think about how we create those jobs of the future together.
12:54
12:54
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
I just want to pick up though, something that witnesses have talked about, which is very good to hear you talk about partnerships and collaboration. Uh, it used to be said for many years that the BBC did partnership to people rather than with partner with people. Um, and that's a, that's a critical difference. Rightly say, a number of these things require the BBC to do that without necessarily reinventing wheels or, uh, or basically, uh, not working with existing organisations such as Screenskills, which you may or may not have heard of.
Matt. Um, very happy to come and talk about all of this, but it is key to the regional clusters, um, as well. Um, and those clusters witnesses have talked really positively about. So that's it.
Matt. Um, very happy to come and talk about all of this, but it is key to the regional clusters, um, as well. Um, and those clusters witnesses have talked really positively about. So that's it.
12:55
Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
That's good. That's very important. We've, we've got a couple of um areas. I will, I will touch on the finance funding. You have mentioned it as we're going through, but I will I will come back to that just before we finish the session. But, Veronica, you have a question around editorial standards and impartiality.
12:56
Speaker 10
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Speaker 10
Yes. Thank you very much. And thank you so much for the time and detail that you've given us today. It really is very helpful to us. Um, um, could I start, please, with Doctor Charlotte Sharman?Because I know it's something we share as a shared interest. And I know lifelong activity in journalism. Um, you've talked about trust and I think we all believe that trust is an absolute bedrock of the BBC. Whether you're talking about anything that's new, that's old the future, whether you're talking about AI, but you are also talking about journalism, and you have recently, um, I think in fact, yesterday acknowledged again that there have been some recent and very serious failings of BBC journalism.
Um, and I'd like to ask, I mean, obviously we're also aware of the, the very important report that was produced by Michael Prescott last year. We've, we've, we don't need to go into that now, but I'd like to know how your thinking has been refreshed with the arrival of the new DG. You did, after all, lose your last DG and head of news as a result of failure in journalism. So what steps will you, as a new team take to um bolt?Better journalistic standards and impartiality.
What is your current thinking?
Um, and I'd like to ask, I mean, obviously we're also aware of the, the very important report that was produced by Michael Prescott last year. We've, we've, we don't need to go into that now, but I'd like to know how your thinking has been refreshed with the arrival of the new DG. You did, after all, lose your last DG and head of news as a result of failure in journalism. So what steps will you, as a new team take to um bolt?Better journalistic standards and impartiality.
What is your current thinking?
12:57
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Well, thank you for that. And you know, as I said before, it was a difficult year last year. And we did have a number of failings, which I acknowledged publicly. I think since then, I would say we've taken a number of steps. We've changed. We've changed both in personnel and policies. I won't go into great detail, but I can let you know of the detail. We've we've changed the leadership of the Arabic service, which has always been an issue.
We've changed the leadership of long form journalism. We're going to. We've got a new deputy director general in charge and focus on it. And we're soon going to be going to be appointing a new director of news. So there's been quite a big change just in personnel to address the questions. We've also had a great deal of change in policies and practices in that to try and address it. Um, we have, for example, we've, uh, had a new system of oversight of a high risk, long form journalism, which has always been an issue.
BBC pre-dating last year. We have, uh. A new, uh. Won't you mention. Michael Prescott we had the standards committee has been reshaped. We have a remit, a new remit, a new purpose, new membership, new chair. Uh, and I think that the changes we've made, um, I feel confident now that, uh, should such instances arise again, that we will be able to deal with them with greater speed. I think speed was one of the big questions that arose, because if you remember, most of the issues that came up were as a result of the BBC's own investigation into our journalism, I think we were slow to act, and I think we need to be faster in acting that.
But I do feel confident that under our new leadership, which I've said along with Matt, now comes in with this new leadership that, uh, I feel confident that we will well, that we'll address issues as they will come up, they will come up, um, with speed and decisiveness.
We've changed the leadership of long form journalism. We're going to. We've got a new deputy director general in charge and focus on it. And we're soon going to be going to be appointing a new director of news. So there's been quite a big change just in personnel to address the questions. We've also had a great deal of change in policies and practices in that to try and address it. Um, we have, for example, we've, uh, had a new system of oversight of a high risk, long form journalism, which has always been an issue.
BBC pre-dating last year. We have, uh. A new, uh. Won't you mention. Michael Prescott we had the standards committee has been reshaped. We have a remit, a new remit, a new purpose, new membership, new chair. Uh, and I think that the changes we've made, um, I feel confident now that, uh, should such instances arise again, that we will be able to deal with them with greater speed. I think speed was one of the big questions that arose, because if you remember, most of the issues that came up were as a result of the BBC's own investigation into our journalism, I think we were slow to act, and I think we need to be faster in acting that.
But I do feel confident that under our new leadership, which I've said along with Matt, now comes in with this new leadership that, uh, I feel confident that we will well, that we'll address issues as they will come up, they will come up, um, with speed and decisiveness.
13:00
Speaker 10
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Speaker 10
Well, that's encouraging. I, we all hope that, that, that is the case. I mean, you will be aware that only today the former director of BBC television, Danny Cohen, has actually written a piece. I'm sure you're up to speed on that. And I will quote him because it is very important. He does actually say that there is a prevailing culture of the BBC long denied that it is more sympathetic to left of centre perspectives. And we have seen the coverage in a range of issues, from Gaza to the coverage of reform, immigration, US politics and trans rights.
Now for him to say that now, you know, when we've got a new team in place, I think it's quite significant. And I'd really like to know what your reaction is to that. And, and how confident you are that you've still got the same board. You've still got many of the same systems. You may have 1 or 2 new people, and you've got to appoint a new head of news. But what really do you think?Do you think you've got to the root of the problem?Well, and it's not just about structures and it's.
about judgment, isn't it?
Now for him to say that now, you know, when we've got a new team in place, I think it's quite significant. And I'd really like to know what your reaction is to that. And, and how confident you are that you've still got the same board. You've still got many of the same systems. You may have 1 or 2 new people, and you've got to appoint a new head of news. But what really do you think?Do you think you've got to the root of the problem?Well, and it's not just about structures and it's.
about judgment, isn't it?
13:01
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
I understand the question. And of course, I understand Danny, who I've known for a long time now, and Danny is, um, is a, is a close watch of our journalism. And he does make these points. I would say my reflection on it is I think we have, we have done a pretty good. Job in trying to tackle, uh, to make sure our journalists understand what it is to be impartial and fair and accurate. Uh, I think that we've said.
Before that, I think we're talking about the, the newsroom and the journalists as a whole. Indeed, the BBC and our recruitment. And I think it's not a surprise to learn that we tend to recruit from, uh. Liberal arts graduates. We tend to be metropolitan outlook and they bring that, uh, to the culture of the organisation. Now, everybody has a political position, so that doesn't bother me. I think what matters is that we don't see that in the journalism we do, but we need to be constantly vigilant on that and we will be.
And I think the new changes, I know you kind of dismiss the changes in leadership. I wouldn't dismiss it that much, I think both leadership and policies need to change. There have been changed pretty significantly. And I would ask Danny and you to have a look at our journalism and see how we go forward. I think we have a new team in place. I think Deputy Director will be a very important factor in that. See, and I'm confident that we will address the questions that Danny raises with me.
And generally.
Before that, I think we're talking about the, the newsroom and the journalists as a whole. Indeed, the BBC and our recruitment. And I think it's not a surprise to learn that we tend to recruit from, uh. Liberal arts graduates. We tend to be metropolitan outlook and they bring that, uh, to the culture of the organisation. Now, everybody has a political position, so that doesn't bother me. I think what matters is that we don't see that in the journalism we do, but we need to be constantly vigilant on that and we will be.
And I think the new changes, I know you kind of dismiss the changes in leadership. I wouldn't dismiss it that much, I think both leadership and policies need to change. There have been changed pretty significantly. And I would ask Danny and you to have a look at our journalism and see how we go forward. I think we have a new team in place. I think Deputy Director will be a very important factor in that. See, and I'm confident that we will address the questions that Danny raises with me.
And generally.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Um. Ask that question briefly because you quoted a small fragment of what I've said, but I'd be happy to talk more broadly about it. One of the issues I think we face with the criticism of journalism is to understand the volume and character of the output, and I've suggested that we can use technology to help us to understand and guide where we might be covering more or less, because there's a huge volume of output. And it's right that we hold ourselves to the highest possible standards.
But that's only one sort of element of the ingredients I think we need. And obviously you have huge experience in in journalism, so you'll understand, uh, standards, structures, culture, training, behaviours, management are all parts of what we need. I just, in answer to a question, suggested that we could also use technology. So when there are criticisms, we actually have the data to help us to investigate them better. And the team's begun to do that.
But that's only one sort of element of the ingredients I think we need. And obviously you have huge experience in in journalism, so you'll understand, uh, standards, structures, culture, training, behaviours, management are all parts of what we need. I just, in answer to a question, suggested that we could also use technology. So when there are criticisms, we actually have the data to help us to investigate them better. And the team's begun to do that.
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13:05
Speaker 11
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Speaker 11
Yes, obviously. Um, the BBC wants is position positions itself as the trust, as the trusted source of information. I am concerned that some of these big cuts that are being made are going to affect that to take to, to get rid of world tonight, for instance, to reduce the funding to the today programme, the absolute flagships of information for radio four seems to me a retrograde step in trying to set the BBC up, or trying to push it forward for the future as the the place of most trusted news information.
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13:06
13:06
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Yeah, the answer is we have to make £500 million of savings. That's a huge number. It's in excess of the budget for drama and sport. It's in excess of the budget for news. Um, and so we have to make some tough choices. And you're absolutely right. Trust is earned. And I think, you know, as we just discussed, it's earned through the story selection, the way those stories are told, where they appear and the expertise and eyewitness nature of the journalism in journalism.
It also has to be earned, by the way, because we're accountable for due impartiality across all of our outputs. Um, and so when you look at what we have to do in the scale of those changes, which are driven by the, the challenges in funding, as we've talked about, um, we have to make some tough choices. And so we try to focus on audience value and on reducing duplication and making sure we're going closer to the audiences. Now, I don't want to get drawn into individual programme choices, but the example you gave there is about two similar programmes, not identical, by the way, all of the programs we have are only there because they have audiences By the way, all of the programs we have are only there because they have audiences and many of them who love them.
Sometimes they angrily shout at the radio. But those programs have audiences and brilliant people working on them, so it's always a tough call. There are two somewhat similar programs. If we zoom out to the scale of what we have to do, there have to be some choices made. We can't just salami slice, there's more to come because we have the savings, which we've announced so far. The teams have worked on over recent months only amount to the beginning of the total that we need to save.
So we will need to look further at programs, at services and how we get the balance of trying to preserve audience. And it may mean, in some cases, that we focus on doing less, but raising the quality. And I think we have to understand how to do that in the context of the charter. I want us to you know, the BBC had its best, is bold and brave and innovative, as we've discussed, whether it's creatively, journalistically or through technology and whatever the size of the funding, we need to reinvent the BBC for that world.
It also has to be earned, by the way, because we're accountable for due impartiality across all of our outputs. Um, and so when you look at what we have to do in the scale of those changes, which are driven by the, the challenges in funding, as we've talked about, um, we have to make some tough choices. And so we try to focus on audience value and on reducing duplication and making sure we're going closer to the audiences. Now, I don't want to get drawn into individual programme choices, but the example you gave there is about two similar programmes, not identical, by the way, all of the programs we have are only there because they have audiences By the way, all of the programs we have are only there because they have audiences and many of them who love them.
Sometimes they angrily shout at the radio. But those programs have audiences and brilliant people working on them, so it's always a tough call. There are two somewhat similar programs. If we zoom out to the scale of what we have to do, there have to be some choices made. We can't just salami slice, there's more to come because we have the savings, which we've announced so far. The teams have worked on over recent months only amount to the beginning of the total that we need to save.
So we will need to look further at programs, at services and how we get the balance of trying to preserve audience. And it may mean, in some cases, that we focus on doing less, but raising the quality. And I think we have to understand how to do that in the context of the charter. I want us to you know, the BBC had its best, is bold and brave and innovative, as we've discussed, whether it's creatively, journalistically or through technology and whatever the size of the funding, we need to reinvent the BBC for that world.
13:08
Speaker 11
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Speaker 11
Thank you. We can end we can end with talking about funding. Given that we've touched on the cuts in your session with the culture, Media and Sport Committee, you did discuss the possibility of a household levy as an alternative funding model for the BBC, so I wanted to give you a chance, a final chance to comment on that, really. Um, in that session, I know that, um, there was discussion about household levy being taken off the table, but since then Lisa Nandy has said there are no options taken off the table.
So can you just tell us how um household. Levy would work in practice?And have you done any economic modelling to understand how it would affect the BBC's finances?
So can you just tell us how um household. Levy would work in practice?And have you done any economic modelling to understand how it would affect the BBC's finances?
11:14
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Stage we're at. We were explaining to the select committee last week, you know, how do we come to be in this situation?And I think we've touched on that in terms of the drop in public funding. Um, the majority of the drop came from licence fee freezes and the increases in scope to, to cover the over 75 and so on. So the majority of the drop came from interventions. Some came from behaviour change. And that's where we are, where we are.
Um what I've looked at with Doctor Shah and with colleagues is, well what do you need in order to maintain that universal um remit under charter with a level of funding that's sustainable. You know, it's very, very hard to run an organisation that can attract and develop the best creative, journalistic and technical people. If you're going to have to cut costs every year in an unpredictable but downward spiral. Um, so we need universality, we need sufficiency, and we need the scale to be able to do whatever the set of purposes the, the charter sets us in the best possible way.
There are many mechanisms and variants that could achieve that. We talk particularly about the household levy, because the committee had heard from various witnesses who had pointed at that as something that might be a solution, and I think we should be open to all options that could deliver that sort of set of outcomes. I do know, because I've spoken to the European Broadcasting Union, that it is something that's in place in a number of European countries in different ways. I think there are advantages in some areas.
In in some cases, it's collected through a utility bill payment and generally evasion reduces significantly. There are obviously some people who are absolutely not wanting to pay for those services. And so there's a question about enforcement there. But generally collection costs go lower. Universality increases. And I think that the sort of the view of those who would favour that solution would say, you know, if the BBC licence fee is £15 a month today, could it be £12 a month if it was more universal?And would that allow government to consider social interventions around people with lower incomes or older groups and so on?So there's some merits in that, particularly in cost of collection, evasion and universality.
There are also questions, obviously, about, you know, the willingness politically. I mean, I'm not politically from a leadership standpoint, but, you know, people are facing a real income challenge in their homes. And we're very conscious of that. And that's, you know, our audience as well. So that's one of the options. And through the summer, we'll be engaging intensively to look at those different alternatives with, um, with the department.
Um what I've looked at with Doctor Shah and with colleagues is, well what do you need in order to maintain that universal um remit under charter with a level of funding that's sustainable. You know, it's very, very hard to run an organisation that can attract and develop the best creative, journalistic and technical people. If you're going to have to cut costs every year in an unpredictable but downward spiral. Um, so we need universality, we need sufficiency, and we need the scale to be able to do whatever the set of purposes the, the charter sets us in the best possible way.
There are many mechanisms and variants that could achieve that. We talk particularly about the household levy, because the committee had heard from various witnesses who had pointed at that as something that might be a solution, and I think we should be open to all options that could deliver that sort of set of outcomes. I do know, because I've spoken to the European Broadcasting Union, that it is something that's in place in a number of European countries in different ways. I think there are advantages in some areas.
In in some cases, it's collected through a utility bill payment and generally evasion reduces significantly. There are obviously some people who are absolutely not wanting to pay for those services. And so there's a question about enforcement there. But generally collection costs go lower. Universality increases. And I think that the sort of the view of those who would favour that solution would say, you know, if the BBC licence fee is £15 a month today, could it be £12 a month if it was more universal?And would that allow government to consider social interventions around people with lower incomes or older groups and so on?So there's some merits in that, particularly in cost of collection, evasion and universality.
There are also questions, obviously, about, you know, the willingness politically. I mean, I'm not politically from a leadership standpoint, but, you know, people are facing a real income challenge in their homes. And we're very conscious of that. And that's, you know, our audience as well. So that's one of the options. And through the summer, we'll be engaging intensively to look at those different alternatives with, um, with the department.
11:15
11:15
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
We obviously, we have built models of the cost of the BBC and its services. Um, it's hard to answer that question specifically because we have to deliver against the charter. So there's a question of what the charter asks us to do and what the funding model for that is. And within that scope, you know, we'd like to do more across the UK. We'd like to do more in education and in technology. We'd like to be able to be more confident in our contribution to growth and to skills.
So there's an awful lot of things we would like to be able to do more of depends on where we reach the on scope. And then there's also a load of the industry factors that we talked about. If we're able to collaborate more with other parties, can we do more to protect the UK's incredible creative industries as a part of this?So there's an awful lot of detail to work through. What I think is, um, welcome. Is that here?And um in the Commons Select committee, the sense of the moment we're in and its importance is, I think, well understood by the department, actually by the industry.
I've been struck on my way into this job. How many people from the industry, whether it's from news publications who are critical of the BBC but understand its role or from technology companies or from broadcasters or from production companies, that will for us to continue to play a key part in the UK is very much there. So I hope that we can find a solution that allows us to do exactly that.
So there's an awful lot of things we would like to be able to do more of depends on where we reach the on scope. And then there's also a load of the industry factors that we talked about. If we're able to collaborate more with other parties, can we do more to protect the UK's incredible creative industries as a part of this?So there's an awful lot of detail to work through. What I think is, um, welcome. Is that here?And um in the Commons Select committee, the sense of the moment we're in and its importance is, I think, well understood by the department, actually by the industry.
I've been struck on my way into this job. How many people from the industry, whether it's from news publications who are critical of the BBC but understand its role or from technology companies or from broadcasters or from production companies, that will for us to continue to play a key part in the UK is very much there. So I hope that we can find a solution that allows us to do exactly that.
11:15
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
I would just add to that, that I do welcome the Secretary of State's, uh, thinking about the funding model, opening up issues like the housing household levy and extending scope. I think we're going to be in negotiation or discussions with them, because it's up for the government to decide. Um, one point that it's really important to note, apart from universality and scale, we need a stable funding because right now funding income is going down. It's very difficult to run a major complex organisation if you don't know what your incomes are.
So this model, but a household levy obviously will achieve that stability in terms of being guaranteed a level of income. Is critical to this to be able to deliver our purposes.
So this model, but a household levy obviously will achieve that stability in terms of being guaranteed a level of income. Is critical to this to be able to deliver our purposes.
11:15
Speaker 11
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Speaker 11
We are we are actually out of time, just about out of time. Um, there's a couple of points that we had questions which we didn't fully put to you, which I'll, I'll just state what they are. And then if you could let us know afterwards, I think rather than trying to extend the session, um one is about um opening iPlayer and BBC sounds to other public sector broadcasters and we wanted to know how that would work in practice, given that other SBS have got their different funding models.
I think, I think when we were talking about channel four, you know, it was like, could they exist on on short?
I think, I think when we were talking about channel four, you know, it was like, could they exist on on short?
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11:15
Speaker 11
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Speaker 11
Yeah. Okay. If there's anything extra to add to that, perhaps you just, just write to us. And um, I did want to say around skills development work that, that it's important that the BBC continues to support and sustain that pipeline of journalism talent across the UK. There's real concerns about that. So I know it all hinges on the funding. Um, and I think it.
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