Women and Equalities Committee
Wednesday 15th July 2026
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14:27
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Good afternoon and welcome to the Women and Equalities Select Select Committee. Today we're holding our first oral evidence session as part of our inquiry into. The outcome follows on from some of our other equalities areas at workplace, in the workplace and. And today, I'm really glad that we have a brilliant and large panel with us. We have Claire Ogden. We've got Fazilet Hadi. MBE, head of policy advice, information at Disability Rights UK. Um, welcome.
And Patricia Stapleton senior. Colitis UK. Yeah. Um we've got Alison Thwaite um head of employment services at the Down's Syndrome Association and James Taylor, executive director of strategy, impact and social change at scope. Welcome to you all. And if you leave here thinking, oh, I should have said that.
And Patricia Stapleton senior. Colitis UK. Yeah. Um we've got Alison Thwaite um head of employment services at the Down's Syndrome Association and James Taylor, executive director of strategy, impact and social change at scope. Welcome to you all. And if you leave here thinking, oh, I should have said that.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Thank you chair, and thank you, all of us, all of you for, for making it today to join us. It's it's a very hot day. London has been difficult to navigate today. So we really appreciate your your time being here and, and joining us online, um, whenever we have big panels, it's always difficult. People feel that they need to get in on the first question. You don't, you'll have your opportunity, but I'm going to come and, and ask is that.
Correct. Fuzzy first. Um, you, you and, and James both have a disability and you've built successful careers. To what extent have you required flexible working arrangements?The flexibilities that you need.
Correct. Fuzzy first. Um, you, you and, and James both have a disability and you've built successful careers. To what extent have you required flexible working arrangements?The flexibilities that you need.
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14:31
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Please. So, um, I think when I reflect on, um, my kind of world of work and I have worked for many decades, um, I think the single thing that's helped me most has been the access to work scheme. And when I started work, um, digital wasn't a thing. And with the advent of digital technologies, but, um, I think that that enabled me to present myself to an employer as someone who could work, um, on a level playing field to others. So that was really, really important to me.
And, um, you know, I think that's a standout, um, factor for me. I mean, in terms of flexibilities, it wasn't so much I needed flexibility in terms of. Things. So I needed people who are presenting things speak to their slides. I need people who are sending me documents to use a narrative word format and not complicated tables. I needed people in team meetings to go around the table and say who they were. So for me, the flexibilities, as I say, weren't about hours.
They were just more about. Adapting to what I needed to be part of the team and creating a more inclusive environment for.
And, um, you know, I think that's a standout, um, factor for me. I mean, in terms of flexibilities, it wasn't so much I needed flexibility in terms of. Things. So I needed people who are presenting things speak to their slides. I need people who are sending me documents to use a narrative word format and not complicated tables. I needed people in team meetings to go around the table and say who they were. So for me, the flexibilities, as I say, weren't about hours.
They were just more about. Adapting to what I needed to be part of the team and creating a more inclusive environment for.
14:32
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Disability and I think different experiences. I think for a long time. It was about me trying to get a job despite. I think, you know, I'm really privileged now in that. I work for a disability charity and get paid for being disabled and talking about my disability. Not everybody, not every person can, can say that, but when I was younger, um, I think certainly in like retail jobs and temporary jobs, uh, which were often physically demanding. Um, I would often like mask or hide things that I'd need because I didn't want to ask for them or I would feel that I was perhaps putting the employer, uh, out of their.
Way to, to do something different for me. Um, I think that's an experience that lots of. Young disabled people still have today, despite the progress we've made. Um, and I think personally, just on flexible working, I've certainly noticed a difference. It takes me a long time to get places.
Way to, to do something different for me. Um, I think that's an experience that lots of. Young disabled people still have today, despite the progress we've made. Um, and I think personally, just on flexible working, I've certainly noticed a difference. It takes me a long time to get places.
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
I think if you don't know what support is out there because you haven't been told or at school or in secondary school or in college or wherever, that information and awareness about access to work and other schemes isn't isn't shared. You just don't know. And I think a lot of young disabled people probably bottle up and would prefer not to talk about it because they want to be seen as a, as an outlier, or they don't want to be seen to be rocking the boat. Um, that they've just preferred not to ask at all.
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14:35
Speaker 6
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Speaker 6
Thank you. Yeah. So for people with arthritis who have a series of conditions, not just one condition, people of all ages, but primarily people over the age of 45, um, flexibility can often mean the difference between staying in work and leaving work. We've heard testimony from people we support that their employers don't give them any flexibility or limited flexibility or sort of a one off flexibility. They don't kind of. Asking people, you know, what do you need?How can we support you having an open, proactive approach and being really clear?Speaking to James and others experiences of an employer saying we are disabled or we are a flexible employer.
being very clear upfront at the beginning of the process for recruitment, I think.
being very clear upfront at the beginning of the process for recruitment, I think.
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Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
We work with employers from the start. We don't look at jobs that are advertised. We we contact an employer. Program is quite unique in that we don't use job coaches as a supported employment model. We ask the employer to designate people within a team to be a workplace mentor or buddy. And how they can support a person who has down syndrome at work. And then we commit to ongoing support for as long as that person is with the organisation.
And that gives employees a lot of reassurance, confidence that if things go well, they won't need us. But if anything doesn't go well, we are there a phone call or an email away and able to support them?
And that gives employees a lot of reassurance, confidence that if things go well, they won't need us. But if anything doesn't go well, we are there a phone call or an email away and able to support them?
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Speaker 7
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Speaker 7
Do. Thank you. So, um, as a fluctuating condition and. This is known as Post-exertional malaise. And it's often delayed by hours or even days. So for people with severe and very severe me, the amount they can do without post-exertional. Is more. Moderately affected can use a self management technique called pacing and that is about focused on keeping activity levels within manageable parameters to avoid triggering.
14:38
Speaker 6
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Speaker 6
Brightest people can. Um fatigue. It can really impact their energy levels. Different day to day. And it's very invisible as well. So, um, someone might be fine one day and not the next or find. Because it basically means that people can kind of adjust their hours to start later in the morning if they're tired, if they haven't slept well. or they need to attend medical appointments. It's really, really important.
There's a lot of medical admin for people with arthritis you're attending. Rheumatology department or department or getting bloods taken, that kind of thing. So the flexibility with the hours, with the start times with, with shift management really, really important and the sectors where people really struggle tend to be those service delivery roles. We do find office roles tend to be a bit more amenable to these types of things. They're not always exemplary. There's some outliers as well. So yeah.
There's a lot of medical admin for people with arthritis you're attending. Rheumatology department or department or getting bloods taken, that kind of thing. So the flexibility with the hours, with the start times with, with shift management really, really important and the sectors where people really struggle tend to be those service delivery roles. We do find office roles tend to be a bit more amenable to these types of things. They're not always exemplary. There's some outliers as well. So yeah.
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Speaker 7
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Speaker 7
Thank you. Um, so we know that the Covid 19 pandemic made flexible and remote working more widely accepted, but that's not still translated into meaningful change for many people. And many disabled people. Access to flexibility often still depends too much on employer. And workplace culture and quite rigid assumptions about what different roles require. Um, one example is, um, you know, back to the office mandates. Um, that's very draining energy wise. The commutes, noisy fixed hours, lack of a place to rest mean that that's really inaccessible for many people with me.
Um, earlier this year, we surveyed 5000 people with me. The majority were not completing any paid work at all. And those who were, um, only 1 in 10 were able to work full time.
Um, earlier this year, we surveyed 5000 people with me. The majority were not completing any paid work at all. And those who were, um, only 1 in 10 were able to work full time.
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14:42
Speaker 6
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Speaker 6
Similarly, um, arthritis or other fluctuating conditions are really poorly understood by employers. I think there's possibly and this was identified in earlier inquiries that there's a culture of fear around asking people questions about how to support them both in work and person as well. Um, so yeah, I'd say very poorly understood. And also just because of the invisible nature of it, I think it's just, it's something that really, there's a real lack of knowledge and support. We'd advise government guidance, this kind of thing, like advice, advice.
Practice, case studies, that kind of thing. Because it's really, it's an unfortunate situation to be in. And we've heard time and again with arthritis that it's poorly understood and they feel poorly supported as a result. So yeah.
Practice, case studies, that kind of thing. Because it's really, it's an unfortunate situation to be in. And we've heard time and again with arthritis that it's poorly understood and they feel poorly supported as a result. So yeah.
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14:43
Speaker 6
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Speaker 6
Similarly, so more women than men experience MSK conditions and arthritis. So absolutely, it does affect more women than, than men. We also find that women hit perimenopause as well. Some of their seems to be very similar to someone with rheumatoid arthritis or another fluctuating condition. They can get dismissed as just pain. or fatigue. So it is missed. So we don't find that there's enough even knowledge within the medical community. about this across the board.
And then in terms of women's prospects at work, we do find that women are more disproportionately impacted by things like having to work reduced hours, also having caring responsibilities. But also we found in our research that we funded that 20% of people with arthritis are more likely to be out of work, and also those with lower, lower levels of education, particularly women are even more likely to be out of work over 50. So there's a real issue there about later in life, poverty and things like that.
And often it's down to lack of reasonable adjustments and lack of flexibility.
And then in terms of women's prospects at work, we do find that women are more disproportionately impacted by things like having to work reduced hours, also having caring responsibilities. But also we found in our research that we funded that 20% of people with arthritis are more likely to be out of work, and also those with lower, lower levels of education, particularly women are even more likely to be out of work over 50. So there's a real issue there about later in life, poverty and things like that.
And often it's down to lack of reasonable adjustments and lack of flexibility.
14:44
14:44
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Thanks, Rebecca. Um, I just wanted to explore a bit about the environmental conditions as well. You've talked about the individual, um, pacing, but also the, the kind of responsibility that you think should be on the employers around the environment. Um, it's a very hot day today. Again, it has been hotter in here and it is incredibly uncomfortable, um, to work. In, um, how does extreme heat or extreme cold affect very hot day today. Again, it has been hotter in here and it is incredibly uncomfortable.
The kind of responsibility that you think should be on the employers around the environment. Um, it's um to work in um how does extreme heat or extreme cold affect affect both arthritis and me?I'll start with Claire first.
The kind of responsibility that you think should be on the employers around the environment. Um, it's um to work in um how does extreme heat or extreme cold affect affect both arthritis and me?I'll start with Claire first.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
The kind of responsibility that you think should be on the employers around the environment. Um, it's a very hot day today. Again, it has been hotter in here and it is incredibly uncomfortable, um, to work. In um, how does extreme heat or extreme cold affect affect both arthritis and me?I'll start with Claire first.
14:45
Speaker 7
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Speaker 7
Thank you. Um, at extremes of temperature can have a significant effect on people's symptoms, especially people with me who also have a common illness at the same time called, um pots. So um, it can mean that symptoms are more severe. Um and um it can make it much more, more difficult to function. Um we are hearing, we're really struggling in this weather.
14:46
Speaker 6
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Speaker 6
Similarly, um, so we find that the hot weather just, it's very energy sapping I think. And if, if you're dealing with fatigue anyway, it just makes it harder. And what we'd really advise is that around these types of days, this type of weather, people should be able to work comfortably from home if they kind of get a kind of an adaptation to that respect as well, because, you know, public transport is exhausting at the best of times, especially coming into like big cities and things like that.
So yeah, so the hot weather in particular, and then the weather also is really hard on bones and joints and people with osteoarthritis really struggle with, with the cold as well. Um, but yeah, totally different. But the travel aspect is the trickiest I think.
So yeah, so the hot weather in particular, and then the weather also is really hard on bones and joints and people with osteoarthritis really struggle with, with the cold as well. Um, but yeah, totally different. But the travel aspect is the trickiest I think.
14:47
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Should we already have you've mentioned about the extreme cold. Um, and I have relatives with arthritis and they really struggle with it, but the heat is, as you say, energy sapping. We have minimum legal requirements on, on temperatures for in cold weather and in cold environments, but we don't have a maximum workplace temperature currently. And the way that these patterns are going. Con tinued heat wave after heat wave. Um, would both your organizations recommend that there is a maximum workplace temperature put in place, or would you like to see that?
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14:49
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Um. Well, I mean. This level, as many. Steps as possible. Really as many things they can do some some work. A couple of years ago, uh, surveying 2000 disabled people, 71% said that, um, being able to. Work remotely made it easier for them to manage their disability. Um, and 60% percent who'd lost a job said they hadn't been offered any chance to try hybrid or remote working. So I think remote working is definitely one thing.
Employers need need to be considering more. Um, I think the second thing, um, that the government needs to think about is. The way we experience work now is very different to how we experienced 20 years ago, even five years ago. I'd say the world of work now is completely different. I don't think legislation, guidance and policy has kept up with how people work and how people experience work. We've talked about Bats, office mates, but we have a very rigid expectation of what people should be doing and the hours they should be doing it between.
Um, I think from our experience speaking to disabled people, and I think this is something that would benefit everybody, not to disable people having flexibility. And when your job, where you do your job, as long as you're doing your job should become the norm. And I think that's something government should be exploring. I think the third thing I'd just say is there is, quite rightly, a very big push from government and people back to work. Now, rightly or wrongly, this is targeting certain groups of people as definitely an issue where we have lots of disabled at work.
Some of those people will never be able to work because of their condition. Many, if they had the right job. It's flexible near where they lived. They didn't have to travel very far, was at a decent temperature, etcetera, etcetera would be able to work. When you go on the government jobs website, there aren't many jobs that are flexible. There are hardly any that are remote, and there are very few that are hybrid. So I think we've got a huge issue where there's a million disabled people right now who are out of a job but want one, and are going on to the government website to look for a job.
But hardly any offer flexible working. And that to me feels like something government could probably address quite quickly. If you've got a big policy push to get more people into work, you need to be sorting out the jobs to put people there. Otherwise, you're just pushing people into a system that isn't getting them a job. Job.
Employers need need to be considering more. Um, I think the second thing, um, that the government needs to think about is. The way we experience work now is very different to how we experienced 20 years ago, even five years ago. I'd say the world of work now is completely different. I don't think legislation, guidance and policy has kept up with how people work and how people experience work. We've talked about Bats, office mates, but we have a very rigid expectation of what people should be doing and the hours they should be doing it between.
Um, I think from our experience speaking to disabled people, and I think this is something that would benefit everybody, not to disable people having flexibility. And when your job, where you do your job, as long as you're doing your job should become the norm. And I think that's something government should be exploring. I think the third thing I'd just say is there is, quite rightly, a very big push from government and people back to work. Now, rightly or wrongly, this is targeting certain groups of people as definitely an issue where we have lots of disabled at work.
Some of those people will never be able to work because of their condition. Many, if they had the right job. It's flexible near where they lived. They didn't have to travel very far, was at a decent temperature, etcetera, etcetera would be able to work. When you go on the government jobs website, there aren't many jobs that are flexible. There are hardly any that are remote, and there are very few that are hybrid. So I think we've got a huge issue where there's a million disabled people right now who are out of a job but want one, and are going on to the government website to look for a job.
But hardly any offer flexible working. And that to me feels like something government could probably address quite quickly. If you've got a big policy push to get more people into work, you need to be sorting out the jobs to put people there. Otherwise, you're just pushing people into a system that isn't getting them a job. Job.
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Um, I think there's probably a better job that, that I mean, certainly our society, but, but others could be doing at really demonstrating the, the. Business benefits of having a diverse workforce, particularly a diverse disabled workforce. There's been research in America that has shown that companies that have high representation of disabled people, uh, post greater profits, a more efficient, have better cultures. I'm unaware of research that replicates that here. But we know from employers we speak to that they, they, they say the same thing.
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Um, do you mind if I just add on a bit to James's before I come to flexibilities for recruitment?I mean, I would just endorse everything James said, but I just wanted to add a couple of other points. One is, you know, the government has said since it came into power 2024, that one of its big objectives is to get more disabled people into work. Yet there is no, um, plan to close the disability employment gap. And I think you need a plan S on.
People penalising disabled people. The benefit system and a bit more around um employers who. And what changes government and other employers need to make to. Live the message of flexibility because if more disabled. From what you've heard from Writers care and Down's syndrome and me association. Unless the workplace. You are not going to get this in large numbers back to work and I just. With one of government schemes is a real gap.
Also. So the gap is the legal framework. So a great duty to. make reasonable adjustments and equality act fantastic. If anyone wants it. And we have reports from CERN, from the TUC and these are from workforce where they. Can't get their requests for reasonable adjustments. So there's something going wrong framework. And now we have the employment rights. A legal right to flexibility, at least the presumption of flexibility.
What their responsibilities are. And then just finally, in terms of what government should do. Um, I think we do the Fair Work Agency, um, which has been set up under the Employment Rights Act, could have a role around this area of flexibility, reasonable adjustments. It shouldn't be seen as something different. That's because it's to do with disabled people sits somewhere else. So I think some sort of enforcement agency would really help with reasonable adjustment. The burden shouldn't be on us as disabled people.
I mean, just coming back to, um recruitment, it's really difficult because I think most people who are in the workplace after, you know, 20 or 30 years when they often develop, acquire a disability or health condition. They've kind of got enough, um, trust. Within their, their workplace, their employer to begin to negotiate what reasonable adjustment looks like, what flexibility looks like. And we see employers like in the NHS and others really wanting to keep their workforce because they're going to, they're going to if talent walks out the door, they're going to really struggle to get new talent in.
So I think there are some there are some good things happening for people maybe already in a job who are trying to negotiate around acquiring a disability or a health condition. But when it comes to recruitment, um, I think that's very, very different. As James was saying earlier, there's vanishingly few jobs being advertised with any sort of flexibility from the advert stage. Um, you're a young person or a person looking for work. You've got you're feeling powerless in this situation. You're not really wanting to stand on your rights on the Equality Act.
And so unless something happens at that stage to really encourage employers to design jobs differently, to think about more part time work, to think about, um, how. They get the job done, but not in traditional ways, unless there's some kind of encouragement, stroke, um, enforcement. And I don't know how we're going to break the logjam between young people who want to get into work, but actually need adaptation to do that, and employers who want to recruit as they've always recruited in traditional ways. And there seems to be an impasse.
And I think Alan Milburn did kind of touch on that in his recent report. But I think it's a real, real problem for young people and other people who are making their first step into the job market. And until you've got a job, it's very hard to show that you can do a job. So I think that that, um, transition is so crucial and needs a lot more thought.
People penalising disabled people. The benefit system and a bit more around um employers who. And what changes government and other employers need to make to. Live the message of flexibility because if more disabled. From what you've heard from Writers care and Down's syndrome and me association. Unless the workplace. You are not going to get this in large numbers back to work and I just. With one of government schemes is a real gap.
Also. So the gap is the legal framework. So a great duty to. make reasonable adjustments and equality act fantastic. If anyone wants it. And we have reports from CERN, from the TUC and these are from workforce where they. Can't get their requests for reasonable adjustments. So there's something going wrong framework. And now we have the employment rights. A legal right to flexibility, at least the presumption of flexibility.
What their responsibilities are. And then just finally, in terms of what government should do. Um, I think we do the Fair Work Agency, um, which has been set up under the Employment Rights Act, could have a role around this area of flexibility, reasonable adjustments. It shouldn't be seen as something different. That's because it's to do with disabled people sits somewhere else. So I think some sort of enforcement agency would really help with reasonable adjustment. The burden shouldn't be on us as disabled people.
I mean, just coming back to, um recruitment, it's really difficult because I think most people who are in the workplace after, you know, 20 or 30 years when they often develop, acquire a disability or health condition. They've kind of got enough, um, trust. Within their, their workplace, their employer to begin to negotiate what reasonable adjustment looks like, what flexibility looks like. And we see employers like in the NHS and others really wanting to keep their workforce because they're going to, they're going to if talent walks out the door, they're going to really struggle to get new talent in.
So I think there are some there are some good things happening for people maybe already in a job who are trying to negotiate around acquiring a disability or a health condition. But when it comes to recruitment, um, I think that's very, very different. As James was saying earlier, there's vanishingly few jobs being advertised with any sort of flexibility from the advert stage. Um, you're a young person or a person looking for work. You've got you're feeling powerless in this situation. You're not really wanting to stand on your rights on the Equality Act.
And so unless something happens at that stage to really encourage employers to design jobs differently, to think about more part time work, to think about, um, how. They get the job done, but not in traditional ways, unless there's some kind of encouragement, stroke, um, enforcement. And I don't know how we're going to break the logjam between young people who want to get into work, but actually need adaptation to do that, and employers who want to recruit as they've always recruited in traditional ways. And there seems to be an impasse.
And I think Alan Milburn did kind of touch on that in his recent report. But I think it's a real, real problem for young people and other people who are making their first step into the job market. And until you've got a job, it's very hard to show that you can do a job. So I think that that, um, transition is so crucial and needs a lot more thought.
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Speaker 8
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Speaker 8
Thank you. Um, Alison, I'm going to come to you in a minute, but just before I do, I wanted to ask Patricia and Claire whether they had anything to add on that and to also, um. Tell me what, what extent do you think people are being put off from applying for jobs because of conventional or rigid application and recruitment processes?And is there anything the government could do to be addressing this problem?
14:58
Speaker 6
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Speaker 6
I'm happy to go first. Yeah. So I think the challenge is, is that if companies don't say up front at the recruitment stage in the advert that they are, they offer flexible working, that they offer reasonable adjustments, that they offer a culture of having inclusive HR policies. People just don't know if it's the right job for them. I think there's often a fear about even applying, you know, if the applicant is putting people off, people are deselecting. So there's that.
I think what really needs to happen is I would agree with my colleague Faisal, is that I think there needs to be more of a push, um, for companies to be more explicit. I think about what they do offer and offering that kind of hybrid working. And absolutely job redesign is really important as well. Um, and being really clear that it's a safe place that reasonable adjustments will be offered. And absolutely it should be about not people being present 9 to 5.
It should be about what they're doing, what their outcomes are, what they're producing.
I think what really needs to happen is I would agree with my colleague Faisal, is that I think there needs to be more of a push, um, for companies to be more explicit. I think about what they do offer and offering that kind of hybrid working. And absolutely job redesign is really important as well. Um, and being really clear that it's a safe place that reasonable adjustments will be offered. And absolutely it should be about not people being present 9 to 5.
It should be about what they're doing, what their outcomes are, what they're producing.
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Speaker 7
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Speaker 7
Yeah. So I think there's there's a real limited understanding of the of the social model of disability still. So that means many employers continue to think about disability primarily in medical terms. But instead of saying, how do we accommodate this person's limitations, it should be about asking, how can we design this role so that a wider range of people can succeed in it?As James has said, diverse teams mean better outcomes for for businesses. And yeah, absolutely agree that clear information about flexibility and adjustments is needed in recruitment.
Um, materials, um, lots of people I think are put off because of the stigma around me. So, you know, we offer job share wherever possible. We're clear. We have a flexible working policy. We include that policy in the job pack and um, there's, there needs to be a bigger push to, to support employers to do that and to show them why it's valuable as well. The, the benefits that that can bring them.
Um, materials, um, lots of people I think are put off because of the stigma around me. So, you know, we offer job share wherever possible. We're clear. We have a flexible working policy. We include that policy in the job pack and um, there's, there needs to be a bigger push to, to support employers to do that and to show them why it's valuable as well. The, the benefits that that can bring them.
15:00
Speaker 8
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Speaker 8
Thank you. Um, Alison, somebody who's also I have also supported young people with down syndrome. The age of approaching working age. So, um, I'm very interested in just digging into down syndrome, specifically learning disability specifically for a second. Um, what support would you say people with down syndrome and other learning disabilities need to navigate the job applications and interview processes?
15:01
Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
It's very rare that we find an employer producing, um, job, which is accessible in a format that's accessible for somebody with a learning disability. It's very, very unusual. Hence the Down's Syndrome Association. We don't look at jobs being advertised. We contact an employer. We tell them about the support that we can offer, and we ask them, are they willing to carve an entry level role on a part time basis?For somebody who has Down's syndrome, and this is all of the support that we can offer them free of charge for them to do that.
So it's about helping them to understand things like reasonable adjustments. I think there is a a fear and anxiety with a lot of employees around reasonable adjustments. And again, that's something that government can help with. You know, just explaining that it's not an expensive process. It's not a long winded process. We can go into an employer site and offer sort of 3 or 4 reasonable adjustments very, very quickly and simply that will make a huge difference to that person who has down syndrome going into work.
I totally agree with James about the, um, a diverse workforce being a strong workforce. And I think some employers are understanding that they're seeing the team building the improvement in staff morale, the, um, the positive response from customers and those kinds of things. That's all very good. One thing, one approach, we're slightly different to in terms of other people on the panel is flexible working for many of our people that we support isn't necessarily going to work. The majority of people that we work with want to be in a face to face environment, rather than working from home.
They want to be working set days and hours across the week because they need that structure and they need that repetition. So I just wanted to put that forward for you to bear in mind, for people with learning disability, that that structure is really, really important, flexible working. We did have a couple of people working from home during the Covid pandemic. Um, but they were very, very prescriptive jobs. Um, but for the vast majority of people that face to face support in the workplace with their team is really, really important.
So it's about helping them to understand things like reasonable adjustments. I think there is a a fear and anxiety with a lot of employees around reasonable adjustments. And again, that's something that government can help with. You know, just explaining that it's not an expensive process. It's not a long winded process. We can go into an employer site and offer sort of 3 or 4 reasonable adjustments very, very quickly and simply that will make a huge difference to that person who has down syndrome going into work.
I totally agree with James about the, um, a diverse workforce being a strong workforce. And I think some employers are understanding that they're seeing the team building the improvement in staff morale, the, um, the positive response from customers and those kinds of things. That's all very good. One thing, one approach, we're slightly different to in terms of other people on the panel is flexible working for many of our people that we support isn't necessarily going to work. The majority of people that we work with want to be in a face to face environment, rather than working from home.
They want to be working set days and hours across the week because they need that structure and they need that repetition. So I just wanted to put that forward for you to bear in mind, for people with learning disability, that that structure is really, really important, flexible working. We did have a couple of people working from home during the Covid pandemic. Um, but they were very, very prescriptive jobs. Um, but for the vast majority of people that face to face support in the workplace with their team is really, really important.
15:03
Speaker 8
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Speaker 8
Thank you. Um, it's been that figure of 6% of people with a learning disability being in any kind of paid employment. I mean, it's been really sticky for a long time that that number, um, do you think that more needs to be done to make mainstream recruitment processes more inclusive for people with learning disabilities, or should it remain this sort of targeted approach?
15:03
Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
Well, the targeted approach works for us really successfully. And our retention rate is 92%. So people going into permanent jobs are staying in jobs. And I think a lot of that is down to the ongoing support that we commit to, because we know life happens to people. You can be in a job for years, things can be going very well, and then something happens. Maybe bereavement or moving home for somebody with a learning disability, anything that's a big change in their lives can be very disruptive generally.
So I would say there are different elements. I still get employers contacting me to say, could we invite some people with down syndrome to an assessment day, come and spend the day with us?And I have to explain, well, that's not really a suitable accessible format for somebody with a learning disability. They would need a 1 to 1 discussion. They would need a tour of your site. They would need to maybe talk to a few people, look at the kind of work that was available.
So assessment days are not viable. So it's the whole job design. We tend to start with a blank sheet of paper with an employer. And hence we don't look at a job that they've advertised. We say let's start with a blank piece of paper. Let's look at your business and what your needs are. Let's look at the kind of jobs that you have now. Entry level jobs usually. Let's look at those tasks.
Let's break it all down and let's work together and carve a role that someone with down syndrome could do.
So I would say there are different elements. I still get employers contacting me to say, could we invite some people with down syndrome to an assessment day, come and spend the day with us?And I have to explain, well, that's not really a suitable accessible format for somebody with a learning disability. They would need a 1 to 1 discussion. They would need a tour of your site. They would need to maybe talk to a few people, look at the kind of work that was available.
So assessment days are not viable. So it's the whole job design. We tend to start with a blank sheet of paper with an employer. And hence we don't look at a job that they've advertised. We say let's start with a blank piece of paper. Let's look at your business and what your needs are. Let's look at the kind of jobs that you have now. Entry level jobs usually. Let's look at those tasks.
Let's break it all down and let's work together and carve a role that someone with down syndrome could do.
15:05
15:05
15:06
Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
We hear a lot of different variations around people coming out of school or college with very little in terms of employability skills. Parents tend to describe the end of college as a cliff edge. They don't know what's going to happen. That transition is obviously is often very, very worrying. We talk to parents regularly about what we call a presumption of employment, and we encourage them through Ehcp plans and discussions with education, social workers, whoever that support network is, to talk about the presumption of employment.
My expectation is that my young person will be going into work, and how can you support that person to achieve that?So we think that's absolutely vital. From the age of 14 onwards, we encourage people to register with the Work Fit programme from 14 onwards to to be looking ahead and we might do some work experience for them in the course of their academic career. But that presumption of employment, we think, is absolutely crucial.
My expectation is that my young person will be going into work, and how can you support that person to achieve that?So we think that's absolutely vital. From the age of 14 onwards, we encourage people to register with the Work Fit programme from 14 onwards to to be looking ahead and we might do some work experience for them in the course of their academic career. But that presumption of employment, we think, is absolutely crucial.
15:07
15:07
Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
Well, it's very individual, so we'd want them to talk to us and we'd want to be able to advise them. Everything that we do is free of charge and without any obligation, but we'd be happy to offer them some advice, resources, training, anything that would help them to maybe adjust their traditional approach to recruitment and look at more accessible options.
15:07
15:07
Speaker 7
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Speaker 7
Thank you. And again, it's about that individualised approach. Um, we have resources that support people with me to have these conversations, to think about what their needs are and how those needs might be met. Um, but the challenge is that the onus is on them to do that. So we're also here to support employers who want to think about what support structures they want to put in place for recruitment, for supporting people to put reasonable adjustments in place internally. We have templates for this.
We have training sessions for managers. Um, because we want to make sure that we're applying the reasonable adjustments duty fairly and, and consistently, but still taking that kind of individualized person centered approach.
We have training sessions for managers. Um, because we want to make sure that we're applying the reasonable adjustments duty fairly and, and consistently, but still taking that kind of individualized person centered approach.
15:08
15:08
Speaker 6
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Speaker 6
Similarly would take a very person centred approach. And also as a, in our own workplace, we have a policy of asking people upfront if they have any reasonable adjustments. At the time of interview and being really clear about that and offering an online interview. We often send out kind of interview questions in advance. We kind of will meet with people, things like that. So we'll make it as as accessible as possible.
15:09
15:09
Speaker 10
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Speaker 10
Thank you. Richard Quigley asking a question. Um, you've noted a catch 22 situation for disabled workers where they need managers to trust them to be able to get flexible working, but quite often they'll need flexible working arrangements before they start work. How how can disabled workers escape that situation where they're sort of asking the impossible?No, they're not asking the impossible. Sorry. They're in a position where it's not what is possible isn't being provided.
15:10
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
I think it's really difficult. And that's why we mentioned it in our, um, response. Um, so this is where I was talking earlier about when you're disabled employee and you've, you've achieved a level of trust and cooperation, you're valued within the organisation. Then when you ask things, um, of course it's, you know, not in your gift to make it happen, but somehow the negotiation is, is, is um, more. On an equal basis, let's say. And so we mentioned that sometimes though some disabled people, they feel that trust isn't there because their performance hasn't been as good as it could be because they haven't had the flexibility to begin with.
So they're in a bit of a catch 22 because they can't demonstrate that actually they could deliver the outcomes of the role if the role was designed a bit differently and they had some more freedoms within it. Um, it's very hard to know how, how to get out of that at the time, you know, I think you'd have to take a few steps back and have employers that were inclusive from the top. I know there's a lot of talk about how line managers need to be inclusive and support and develop their staff, but actually, most of us who are disabled find that.
Uh, it's the, the overall culture of an organisation that makes it inclusive. And if it does have an inclusive culture from the top down, from the CEO to all the HR professionals, then the line manager will have that, freedom, that kind of desire, that ambition to make it work for you as an individual employee. So I think you've got to take a few steps back from that catch 22 situation. And then taking a few steps back from the employer, even what is out there to really help employers, um, navigate situations which are quite complex for them, particularly small and medium sized employers.
Um, there isn't any agency out there that is really supporting employers to, I mean, it's great what the Down's Syndrome Association are doing, but at scale, perhaps that needs to be done for many more disabled people. And employers like really thinking about, um, you know, how could jobs be redesigned?How could things work differently?How could an employer still get the outcome, the business outcomes they need, but think much more creatively about the jobs they shape and whether they're flexible, whether they're part time, whether they're remote, um, whether there's change, you know, other changes that are needed by staff members.
So I think we'll never solve that problem if you like. Um, it's hard to solve in the, in the present for the people it's happening to without taking a few steps back.
So they're in a bit of a catch 22 because they can't demonstrate that actually they could deliver the outcomes of the role if the role was designed a bit differently and they had some more freedoms within it. Um, it's very hard to know how, how to get out of that at the time, you know, I think you'd have to take a few steps back and have employers that were inclusive from the top. I know there's a lot of talk about how line managers need to be inclusive and support and develop their staff, but actually, most of us who are disabled find that.
Uh, it's the, the overall culture of an organisation that makes it inclusive. And if it does have an inclusive culture from the top down, from the CEO to all the HR professionals, then the line manager will have that, freedom, that kind of desire, that ambition to make it work for you as an individual employee. So I think you've got to take a few steps back from that catch 22 situation. And then taking a few steps back from the employer, even what is out there to really help employers, um, navigate situations which are quite complex for them, particularly small and medium sized employers.
Um, there isn't any agency out there that is really supporting employers to, I mean, it's great what the Down's Syndrome Association are doing, but at scale, perhaps that needs to be done for many more disabled people. And employers like really thinking about, um, you know, how could jobs be redesigned?How could things work differently?How could an employer still get the outcome, the business outcomes they need, but think much more creatively about the jobs they shape and whether they're flexible, whether they're part time, whether they're remote, um, whether there's change, you know, other changes that are needed by staff members.
So I think we'll never solve that problem if you like. Um, it's hard to solve in the, in the present for the people it's happening to without taking a few steps back.
15:12
Speaker 10
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Speaker 10
Thank you. I mean, you mentioned culture and sympathetic line management. I've just come from an evidence session on eating disorders. And there's a lot of parallels really around mental health and flexible working and very similar outcomes. Uh, unfortunately, how would you train line managers to be more sympathetic?What could you do?Because you're right, the culture has to come from a CEO. But at the moment, it's just not happening. You know, we've been it's not new.
It's not a new phenomenon. Disabled people wanted to join the workforce. Why do you think we're not making any changes or not making any headway?And that's to anyone. But starting with Claire and then Patricia.
It's not a new phenomenon. Disabled people wanted to join the workforce. Why do you think we're not making any changes or not making any headway?And that's to anyone. But starting with Claire and then Patricia.
15:13
Speaker 7
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Speaker 7
Thank you. Um, I think managers can often view flexible working through the lens of organisational policy. And they, they're worried about getting it wrong. Um, and that's what training can address. It can help them understand that for disabled employees, flexibility, you know, is, can be a reasonable adjustment. It's not something to be just discretionary. Um, and training can encourage that sort of collaborative solution focused approach that's needed. I think, um, some conditional disability specific training can also be helpful to address assumptions that perhaps fluctuate in performance reflects poor commitments or capability.
But in terms of, um, you know, the, the catch 22, I think there's a wider issue of stigma around disability full stop. Um, you know, all good employers start from a position of trust that they've secured the right person for the right role and that they're competent to do the job. And that shouldn't be any different for employers of people with me and other disabled people. So I think there's something, um, something there about us needing better understanding universally of disabilities and long term conditions.
Patricia.
But in terms of, um, you know, the, the catch 22, I think there's a wider issue of stigma around disability full stop. Um, you know, all good employers start from a position of trust that they've secured the right person for the right role and that they're competent to do the job. And that shouldn't be any different for employers of people with me and other disabled people. So I think there's something, um, something there about us needing better understanding universally of disabilities and long term conditions.
Patricia.
15:14
Speaker 6
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Speaker 6
Absolutely. Very similar would echo that. I find the role of line managers is absolutely pivotal. It can be the difference between someone staying in work or leaving, but often the line managers, if they don't have the right information, they don't have the right organisational support. They won't be able to support that person. And we often find that if there's even a slight glitch in terms of how they work with that person, they can feel very, very unsupported. So I would absolutely agree.
I think there needs to be more national guidance on these types of things with advice, information and best practice case studies, especially around fluctuating conditions and other conditions that are hidden and poorly understood. Um, and it should be something that should be, the government should be working on. I don't think it should be down to individual employers to make that decision.
I think there needs to be more national guidance on these types of things with advice, information and best practice case studies, especially around fluctuating conditions and other conditions that are hidden and poorly understood. Um, and it should be something that should be, the government should be working on. I don't think it should be down to individual employers to make that decision.
15:15
Speaker 10
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Speaker 10
Thank you. So several of you have mentioned good practice and the existence of good practice out there. Um, could you describe that good practice and then tell me how, how would you get more businesses and persuade more businesses to, to start from a position of, of best practice?And what, what do you see as the handbrake to that happening, starting with.
15:16
Speaker 6
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Speaker 6
Yeah. Thank you. Um, so to be honest, flexible working is a, is a retention tool. It keeps people in work. We know that people who are able to attend their medical appointments, who don't worry about, you know, having to use their annual leave or any of these things or getting sanctioned for missing too much work. We know they perform better at work. They'll feel supported. They're less likely to go off on long term sick leave.
Um, so we just think it's just, it just makes sense. Recruitment is expensive, you know, finding the right people for a role is expensive. It's difficult. So you just have to create that environment where it is. Okay. We've heard from people who work in all sectors, particularly the NHS and service delivery roles, where they have to use their annual leave. They have to go to their appointments, um, and they don't have enough time then for their wellbeing, you know, so and they end up working in a very kind of adversarial environment.
So it's just not appropriate. Yeah.
Um, so we just think it's just, it just makes sense. Recruitment is expensive, you know, finding the right people for a role is expensive. It's difficult. So you just have to create that environment where it is. Okay. We've heard from people who work in all sectors, particularly the NHS and service delivery roles, where they have to use their annual leave. They have to go to their appointments, um, and they don't have enough time then for their wellbeing, you know, so and they end up working in a very kind of adversarial environment.
So it's just not appropriate. Yeah.
15:17
15:18
Speaker 7
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Speaker 7
So I would echo what's been said and also that it that it does start with with recruitment. So there's, there's a whole whole process from job design to recruitment to supporting managers to do it. So at action for me, we devised with our team some flexible working principles. You know, we, you know, about where we choose, where we work best. Those are in our recruitment packs. I call it handbook. We're really clear about our duty and willingness to make reasonable adjustments.
We want to create a supportive environment for disclosure. We want to provide reassurance about confidentiality and keep the focus on adjustment needs about rather than than diagnosis. Um, and it's, it's about showing that that framework means that you get the best out of your employees. It's, it's, again, it's that it's that social model. Like, what are we doing here to help people thrive?
We want to create a supportive environment for disclosure. We want to provide reassurance about confidentiality and keep the focus on adjustment needs about rather than than diagnosis. Um, and it's, it's about showing that that framework means that you get the best out of your employees. It's, it's, again, it's that it's that social model. Like, what are we doing here to help people thrive?
15:19
Speaker 10
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Speaker 10
Thank you. That's really helpful. Um, I'll ask this question to Alison first, but I think it's probably fair to let everybody else answer as well. Um, to what extent does the Disability Confident Accreditation Scheme provide an effective template for the supportive conversations that people need about their flexibility at work?
15:19
15:19
15:19
Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
You go. I think I think in principle there are a lot of positives, but I think disability confidence doesn't go far enough. I think it could go much further to address fears of employers around reasonable adjustments. It could do much more in terms of signposting employees to specialist support. There's a lot of expertise in this room. You know, people that genuinely want to help keep people in jobs and get people into jobs so that it really could. It's a huge opportunity, I think, to develop disability confidence, to make it much more fit for purpose, for employers to use.
Um, there's, there is that, um, that fear, that lack of understanding, one of the things that we do in the training is we talk in great detail about the condition of down syndrome. So we talk about, you know, what this person might experience, how they might feel, how they might communicate, how will their buddies and team members communicate effectively with them?We go into quite a lot of depth, and you can see what a change that makes in terms of perception. People in the team feel much more confident.
They feel prepared, they feel ready. So I think disability confidence at the moment, I use an expression, I say it lacks teeth. It needs a bit more, um, oomph, a bit more bite, a bit more bolstering. It needs to be stronger. But it's got potential.
Um, there's, there is that, um, that fear, that lack of understanding, one of the things that we do in the training is we talk in great detail about the condition of down syndrome. So we talk about, you know, what this person might experience, how they might feel, how they might communicate, how will their buddies and team members communicate effectively with them?We go into quite a lot of depth, and you can see what a change that makes in terms of perception. People in the team feel much more confident.
They feel prepared, they feel ready. So I think disability confidence at the moment, I use an expression, I say it lacks teeth. It needs a bit more, um, oomph, a bit more bite, a bit more bolstering. It needs to be stronger. But it's got potential.
15:21
15:21
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Well, I think exactly that. I think so much of what we're talking about is, is really. About people feeling very awkward talking about disability. And something we do a lot at scope is try and remove that awkwardness and try and focus it on the social model of disability. So rather than how can we help you manage your condition, which inherently puts the disabled person at a negative space?It's what can we do to support you to thrive?And I just wanted to say that I think in terms of disability confidence itself, you know, coming up to a decade of disability confidence now, thousands of employers have joined it.
Disability, employment gap hasn't shifted in over 15 years. Um, I think the time is right now to have a proper root and branch. Look at how well that scheme is working for, talked about there being no national strategy for disability employment yet. The government's got the disability Confidence scheme, the youth guarantee, access to job centers and work coaches across the country. I think we'd want to see is how does all of that join up?How do you go from someone out of work, a very young age and support them through the system into a disability, confident employer?Um, I think the second thing is we'd like to see more teeth around levels two and three.
So some minimum thresholds for the proportion of the workforce that are disabled. Um we know that um pay gap reporting legislation on, on race and disability is, is on the cards somewhere. Um, and hopefully that comes into force at some point, but I think requiring employers as they move up the levels to be meeting certain thresholds would be, would be very welcome. Um, and then I think also reporting on the satisfaction of disabled colleagues, um, experience with reasonable adjustments requests as well would just be a handful of things I'd suggest.
Disability, employment gap hasn't shifted in over 15 years. Um, I think the time is right now to have a proper root and branch. Look at how well that scheme is working for, talked about there being no national strategy for disability employment yet. The government's got the disability Confidence scheme, the youth guarantee, access to job centers and work coaches across the country. I think we'd want to see is how does all of that join up?How do you go from someone out of work, a very young age and support them through the system into a disability, confident employer?Um, I think the second thing is we'd like to see more teeth around levels two and three.
So some minimum thresholds for the proportion of the workforce that are disabled. Um we know that um pay gap reporting legislation on, on race and disability is, is on the cards somewhere. Um, and hopefully that comes into force at some point, but I think requiring employers as they move up the levels to be meeting certain thresholds would be, would be very welcome. Um, and then I think also reporting on the satisfaction of disabled colleagues, um, experience with reasonable adjustments requests as well would just be a handful of things I'd suggest.
15:23
15:23
15:23
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Yeah. I mean, you know, that kind of says it all. It's a good kind of, um, envelope that needs something in it to make it more, a bit more real and a bit more significant. And you know, there's no doubt that disabled people um, aren't. Confident to, to say they have an impairment or health condition at work. In fact, millions don't. And as Charlie Mayfield found out, that means that you can't have the conversation with the employer early enough because the disabled person is worried about how the employer will respond.
I think Claire was talking earlier about the stigma of disability, and that's very real for a lot of disabled people in work. Um, I always remember like, um, the NHS staff survey, um. Says that the people completing that 24% say they're disabled. But if you look at the employee record for the NHS, only 4 or 5% say they're disabled. So it gives you quite a good indication that, you know, millions of disabled people aren't comfortable talking about impairments or health conditions at work.
If you've got that from our side legitimately, because people fear what the reaction is. Plus, employers with very little idea about how to do things differently and needing a lot of help to shift the way they do things. I think the Mayfield Review did kind of touch on this kind of lack of discussion between disabled employees or people acquiring impairments in health conditions, and the employer at an early enough stage, but actually, Mayfield is like 120 Vanguard employers. It's again, not at the scale to to really shift things.
And the government is, you know, wanting disabled people in work. But some of the the scale of its ambition does just doesn't seem big enough.
I think Claire was talking earlier about the stigma of disability, and that's very real for a lot of disabled people in work. Um, I always remember like, um, the NHS staff survey, um. Says that the people completing that 24% say they're disabled. But if you look at the employee record for the NHS, only 4 or 5% say they're disabled. So it gives you quite a good indication that, you know, millions of disabled people aren't comfortable talking about impairments or health conditions at work.
If you've got that from our side legitimately, because people fear what the reaction is. Plus, employers with very little idea about how to do things differently and needing a lot of help to shift the way they do things. I think the Mayfield Review did kind of touch on this kind of lack of discussion between disabled employees or people acquiring impairments in health conditions, and the employer at an early enough stage, but actually, Mayfield is like 120 Vanguard employers. It's again, not at the scale to to really shift things.
And the government is, you know, wanting disabled people in work. But some of the the scale of its ambition does just doesn't seem big enough.
15:25
15:25
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Thank you very much, Richard. I just had a quick question about the the work on promoting more disability inclusive workplaces. Um, we've talked about employers, we've talked about employees and we've talked about the organisations, the fantastic work that you do. We haven't talked about trade unions. Is there a role for trade unions to be able to promote disability inclusive workplaces at all?And have you seen any good examples of that?
15:26
Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
I can't give any examples that we talk to employers about positive action. We talk about ring fencing rules for disabled people. Again, there's an education piece there. A lot of employers have no idea what we mean and don't believe that they're able to ring fence a role for a person with disability. So that's part of the education piece. I think.
15:27
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
I mean, unions play a critical role in in workplaces, don't they?And for employees and employers, um, I'm unaware of anything specific, but I would like to think they're supporting disabled colleagues who are experiencing difficulties. So I think they do have a role to play in helping us get more disabled people in work.
15:27
15:27
Speaker 11
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Speaker 11
Thank you. Chair. Um, we're going to talk a bit more about the Equality Act and reasonable adjustments. Um, and James would like to bring you in on the first one if that's okay. There's research evidence which suggests that many job seekers, employees and employers are unaware that flexible working arrangements are probably in line with the Equality Acts. Reasonable adjustments. Why do you think that is?Is that lack of awareness?And also, what can we do to raise awareness of that?
15:28
15:28
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
So I suppose there's two things. One is that. Um, you know, most ordinary people aren't particularly aware of their legal rights. It's just it's very difficult to communicate them. And it's even harder to actually use them. Um, so I think, I think there is a communication issue. I think like for people like me who work at disability rights UK, obviously reasonable adjustments, trips off the tongue, but I don't really know how many, how many disabled people in work would use that term.
Even. Um, and I think so I think there is an issue and I don't, I don't know how we, I think we could do a lot more to communicate reasonable adjustments to employers and to disabled employees. And maybe, um, it's a bit to do with the last question, but there are many, many disabled staff networks. Now we see in some of the bigger organisations and perhaps they have a role as well, um, having a. I just think enforcement though is such an issue because if you have a, you know, I've got the right to a reasonable adjustment at work, but do I really want to like litigate that?Right?Probably not, because, you know, works are kind of quite delicate ecosystem, the power relationship.
The employer has more power than me as an employee. And actually I want to be I want to be able to be somewhere where the employer recognises that it's an obligation of theirs to make that adjustment. I don't want to bring a case. I don't want to start a grievance. ET cetera. ET cetera. So I think maybe it's more important that, um, employers understand what a reasonable adjustment is. And, and. Interestingly, the Employment Rights Act and will make flexibility, I Ability.
I think much. I suppose much more known about. Because that that isn't a right that you get from being a disabled person. That's a right to for any employee to ask for flexibility. And, you know, the presumption is you get it unless there's a good reason. But how does how do disabled employees within that broader flexibility process, um, exert their stronger equality act right to reasonable adjustment?And that's just, just not very clear how that's going to play out.
Even. Um, and I think so I think there is an issue and I don't, I don't know how we, I think we could do a lot more to communicate reasonable adjustments to employers and to disabled employees. And maybe, um, it's a bit to do with the last question, but there are many, many disabled staff networks. Now we see in some of the bigger organisations and perhaps they have a role as well, um, having a. I just think enforcement though is such an issue because if you have a, you know, I've got the right to a reasonable adjustment at work, but do I really want to like litigate that?Right?Probably not, because, you know, works are kind of quite delicate ecosystem, the power relationship.
The employer has more power than me as an employee. And actually I want to be I want to be able to be somewhere where the employer recognises that it's an obligation of theirs to make that adjustment. I don't want to bring a case. I don't want to start a grievance. ET cetera. ET cetera. So I think maybe it's more important that, um, employers understand what a reasonable adjustment is. And, and. Interestingly, the Employment Rights Act and will make flexibility, I Ability.
I think much. I suppose much more known about. Because that that isn't a right that you get from being a disabled person. That's a right to for any employee to ask for flexibility. And, you know, the presumption is you get it unless there's a good reason. But how does how do disabled employees within that broader flexibility process, um, exert their stronger equality act right to reasonable adjustment?And that's just, just not very clear how that's going to play out.
15:31
15:32
Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
Um, yeah, I'd like to echo what, um, just said. So people are unaware of their rights, but also, people with arthritis might not see themselves as disabled and they might not. Then the Equality Act is really vague. So I think there needs to be absolute clarity on the definition of disability under the Equality Act, but also what reasonable adjustment means with practical examples, I think so. So lots of people with arthritis will note they have health issues. They've got ongoing long term health conditions, but they might not think, oh, I'm a disabled person.
I'm entitled to X, Y, Z. It's very unclear what they're entitled to. And employers will have the same issue.
I'm entitled to X, Y, Z. It's very unclear what they're entitled to. And employers will have the same issue.
15:33
15:33
Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
I think it goes beyond raising awareness. It's something about moving from awareness to the enforcement side of things, and the duty of an employer to actually create a healthy work environment for all their employees, and not just the fit and healthy ones. Um, because we know that culture of fear makes it really difficult for people to kind of thrive, you know?
15:33
15:33
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Well, I'll just support that. I think it's. It's really down to the discretion of the employer, whether they grant the reasonable adjustment or not. And so many, you know, the research I talked about earlier, I think we found about half, 48% of disabled people who left work had encountered a problem trying to access a reasonable adjustment. And I think we can raise awareness as, as, as much as we like, if, if, if, if that duty isn't properly enforced and if the, the it's all on the disabled person employee to, to push for that.
Right. It becomes really tricky. And I think government should be, you know, how can we be working better with the Ehrc to properly enforce this duty?
Right. It becomes really tricky. And I think government should be, you know, how can we be working better with the Ehrc to properly enforce this duty?
15:34
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Great. Thank you. I mean, the next section of this is really about fluctuating conditions. And you've mentioned it, all of you. But but I think it is what we're trying to get at in this section is a lot of disabled people wouldn't necessarily know what those definitions are themselves because it's about their everyday lived lives. And that's very specific to them, isn't it?So how can how can we as lawmakers be a bit more educated on that generally, because each of the conditions that you represent, they're very different and each human being is very different.
So is it just a much more flexible approach and a more person centred approach generally, do you think, and what role can the Ehrc and the government and us play in that?Sorry, Claire, did you want to come in on that?
So is it just a much more flexible approach and a more person centred approach generally, do you think, and what role can the Ehrc and the government and us play in that?Sorry, Claire, did you want to come in on that?
15:35
Speaker 6
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Speaker 6
Um thank you. So I think there's some there's some unifying principles here that, yes, you know, everyone's condition is different. And even with me, everyone's experience of me is different. But there's some, there's some, there's some texts you can take steps that can be taken with underlying principles that it's, um, you know, we at ten years ago, we did, um, an employee employment support project where we looked at what those steps might be. And I think from what I'm hearing here, they would be applicable to other conditions.
So there's something about, you know, bringing that guidance together and presenting it in a way that, um, is accessible for employers, that gives them the resources that they need. But again, also promotes this as a positive move. This is bringing people with really valuable insight and skills and experience into your workforce and helping them stay there.
So there's something about, you know, bringing that guidance together and presenting it in a way that, um, is accessible for employers, that gives them the resources that they need. But again, also promotes this as a positive move. This is bringing people with really valuable insight and skills and experience into your workforce and helping them stay there.
15:36
15:36
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Claire said, but also what Claire said earlier about the social model of disability. I think it's really important that, you know, employers, um, think in terms of removing barriers and, and people have said this earlier, creating inclusive, um working. Environments for all their colleagues. Disabled people are 25% of the, the working age population. And, you know, it always feels like we're being accommodated or we're getting special treatment. But actually, I suppose in terms of being legislators, etc., you know, we are citizens, we're part of the population and everything should be designed with us in mind, you know, workplaces work.
Transport, housing, social care. ET cetera. ET cetera. And it often feels like in these discussions that, you know, there's, we're asking for special pleading or something. And I just don't think that's the case. I think the case is if you're an employer, you need to think that the workforce is made up of a diverse group of people, men and women, disabled, non-disabled, LGBTQ and not, etc., and design. With that in mind. And I always feel like we're kind of a bit on the back foot thinking, well, how do we make this better for disabled people when actually, if they if people just designed things, uh, more inclusively, including employment, it would help enormously.
And then I'm sure there's still the need for personalization. You know, people have made comments around the table. You, you do know we're all different as disabled people. Every other blind person is probably, you know, different to me. And similarly, across the board of impairments and health conditions. So you'll never get away from personalization, but we could actually do so much more if we kind of started with the social model and created things that were inclusive for all citizens.
Transport, housing, social care. ET cetera. ET cetera. And it often feels like in these discussions that, you know, there's, we're asking for special pleading or something. And I just don't think that's the case. I think the case is if you're an employer, you need to think that the workforce is made up of a diverse group of people, men and women, disabled, non-disabled, LGBTQ and not, etc., and design. With that in mind. And I always feel like we're kind of a bit on the back foot thinking, well, how do we make this better for disabled people when actually, if they if people just designed things, uh, more inclusively, including employment, it would help enormously.
And then I'm sure there's still the need for personalization. You know, people have made comments around the table. You, you do know we're all different as disabled people. Every other blind person is probably, you know, different to me. And similarly, across the board of impairments and health conditions. So you'll never get away from personalization, but we could actually do so much more if we kind of started with the social model and created things that were inclusive for all citizens.
15:38
15:38
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Thank you. I think as legislators, it's still surprises me. It's 2026. We have very few people who will identify as disabled, actually, in the chamber of the House of Commons, where we know it's kind of 1 in 5, 1 in 6, 25%. I think has just said, you know, that's still quite behind the kind of national picture, isn't it?Yeah. And it probably would help if we weren't like that. Um, okay. Does anybody on the panel favor a change in the law?And, you know, particularly related to the Equality Act?And if so, what changes would you like to see?
15:39
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
I mean, in terms of the law, it'd be great to see. I don't know if it needs to be um, a, a, a law or procedure or some sort of statutory instrument, but I'd love to see a real clear, um. Guidance, stroke requirements for when a reasonable adjustment request has to be responded to by, you know what the appeal is if you don't get it. ET cetera. ET cetera. So a bit like the thinking that's going on on the flexible, um, the right to flexible working, some thinking on, you know, how do we enforce this?And also maybe some thinking on do we need an enforcement agency like the fair work agency or someone else to really get a grip of this reasonable adjustment flexibility?Look at it all as a whole and try and again, drive that, um, compliance.
Um, the other thing, um, we've been thinking about is whether the UK needs a new accessibility act, um, which builds on the Equality act, but is, is really drives inclusion through accessibility. Because one thing, the Equality Act doesn't, it's, it's, it's great on, um, giving me as an individual the right to bring a case, you know, if someone discriminates against me because I've got a protected characteristic, but it's quite weak on institutional change. So the public sector equality duty is weak despite what some parties think about that.
I think it's weak. And the anticipatory duty is weak. So all the two duties that are put on institutions are incredibly weak. And as a disabled person, I haven't got a clue whether they're being implemented or not. And there's no comeback if they're not implemented. So what some countries have done, and we're looking to the um Accessibility Canada Act particularly is that they've put much greater duty on institutions to drive systemic change. And that includes employers.
So that, you know, it's not just on little old disabled person to come up and take a case. It's actually systemic change, whether that's, you know, um, employers or transport or, um. Other organisations so that each year you have plans, those plans are co-produced and those plans are monitored so that we see something a bit more systemic happening. Because I love the Equality Act a bit, but it is not bringing about the systemic change we need.
Um, the other thing, um, we've been thinking about is whether the UK needs a new accessibility act, um, which builds on the Equality act, but is, is really drives inclusion through accessibility. Because one thing, the Equality Act doesn't, it's, it's, it's great on, um, giving me as an individual the right to bring a case, you know, if someone discriminates against me because I've got a protected characteristic, but it's quite weak on institutional change. So the public sector equality duty is weak despite what some parties think about that.
I think it's weak. And the anticipatory duty is weak. So all the two duties that are put on institutions are incredibly weak. And as a disabled person, I haven't got a clue whether they're being implemented or not. And there's no comeback if they're not implemented. So what some countries have done, and we're looking to the um Accessibility Canada Act particularly is that they've put much greater duty on institutions to drive systemic change. And that includes employers.
So that, you know, it's not just on little old disabled person to come up and take a case. It's actually systemic change, whether that's, you know, um, employers or transport or, um. Other organisations so that each year you have plans, those plans are co-produced and those plans are monitored so that we see something a bit more systemic happening. Because I love the Equality Act a bit, but it is not bringing about the systemic change we need.
15:42
15:42
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Well, I'd agree that the act isn't isn't delivering the systemic change that disabled people need and want, but I'm not sure that amending the act would do that either. Um, I think I think completely echo what Fazila was saying in the second part of her answer, which is I think it is it's awareness. It's better interpretation of the act and understanding what happens if you as an employer or a service provider don't meet it. There is very little comeback on either of those things at the moment.
It's all on the disabled person to raise the issue. And I think that's a rebalancing that should happen, but I'm not sure it's a change in the Equality Act itself.
It's all on the disabled person to raise the issue. And I think that's a rebalancing that should happen, but I'm not sure it's a change in the Equality Act itself.
15:42
15:42
15:43
15:43
15:43
15:43
15:43
15:44
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Lovely. Thank you chair. Hi everybody. I'm Kim thank you for coming today. Um, just something that Faisal said really struck with me about inclusive design. And I think that's really fundamental to a lot of this conversation, both in terms of jobs and employment. But also, I wondered if you had any thoughts about what that might look like from an education perspective and from a curriculum perspective, because when we're sending disabled people out into the world of work, so with any other young person, surely the groundwork could and should be done.
Prior to that point, I just wondered if anybody wanted to comment on anything that you think could be done from an education and a curriculum perspective. Alison.
Prior to that point, I just wondered if anybody wanted to comment on anything that you think could be done from an education and a curriculum perspective. Alison.
15:45
15:45
15:45
Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
Similarly, uh, very happy to send you some. We've developed a toolkits for what higher education students can do, but also employers can do for like early career people with long term health conditions. So it's like, it's information about the Equality Act, about adjustments. So people need that kind of thing. Very happy to share that afterwards.
15:46
15:46
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Yeah, I was just going to say, I think this this issue is something that um, um, Alan Milburn's interim report, um, is quite strong on, which is that, you know, for young people who are not in education, employment or training and need to move into work, actually some of the damage is kind of being done by other systems, you know, whether that's education system or benefits or, you know, employment support. There's quite a he points to quite a few systemic failings that are leading to then disabled young people, particularly, um, not being kind of able to get a job.
And I suppose coming back to education. Um, when we worked with some disabled, um, apprentices a couple of years ago, one of the things they said was that they didn't get the right, um, kind of didn't have the right careers conversation early enough. They thought that should be at 14. They were channelled down particular options. Like some were encouraged to go to university, some were encouraged to do apprenticeships, but very few people were given a full menu of options. So they didn't know about access to work.
So they felt that would have made a huge difference if they'd known there was a support scheme that could have helped them into work. So there's all those kind of things to help young people begin to think about things a lot earlier. And I think, um, I think Milburn makes a point that there's maybe far too much in the curriculum around academic qualifications and far too little weight given to other types of, um, competence, whether that's, you know, um, more kind of vocational. Uh, led work in schools and I suppose just, just general life skills, you know, just are young people learning about how to communicate and how to operate, how to use money, all those kind of fantastic skills that actually, when you get out into the world of work are so, so important.
So there probably is quite a mismatch, I think, between what schools are measured on, which is academic attainment. And then what we want from people who are entering the workforce.
And I suppose coming back to education. Um, when we worked with some disabled, um, apprentices a couple of years ago, one of the things they said was that they didn't get the right, um, kind of didn't have the right careers conversation early enough. They thought that should be at 14. They were channelled down particular options. Like some were encouraged to go to university, some were encouraged to do apprenticeships, but very few people were given a full menu of options. So they didn't know about access to work.
So they felt that would have made a huge difference if they'd known there was a support scheme that could have helped them into work. So there's all those kind of things to help young people begin to think about things a lot earlier. And I think, um, I think Milburn makes a point that there's maybe far too much in the curriculum around academic qualifications and far too little weight given to other types of, um, competence, whether that's, you know, um, more kind of vocational. Uh, led work in schools and I suppose just, just general life skills, you know, just are young people learning about how to communicate and how to operate, how to use money, all those kind of fantastic skills that actually, when you get out into the world of work are so, so important.
So there probably is quite a mismatch, I think, between what schools are measured on, which is academic attainment. And then what we want from people who are entering the workforce.
15:47
15:48
Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
Would echo that. What we find is that young people in school with long term health conditions are often told what they shouldn't do or what they can't do or what. And just be. They're kind of wrapped up in cotton wool, so they're not given good careers advice earlier on at all. And the schools are quite. They'll also be excluded from activities because of fears around doing too much physical activity. So they're often not getting the right amount of physical activity as well.
There's a real issue there. So absolutely need to move to more social model of disability and education institutions as well.
There's a real issue there. So absolutely need to move to more social model of disability and education institutions as well.
15:49
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Yeah that's brilliant. Thank you very much. And I'm going to come on now to the Employment Rights Act, which we've touched on already. Um but if you want to add anything to this, it'd be great. I'll come to you first of all, if I may. To what extent do you think the Employment Rights Act, flexible working provisions provide improved access to flexible working for people with disabling impairments and health conditions. You've already said that you think it raises awareness of it, but do you think they'll actually be a practical benefit to the act?
15:49
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
I mean, the thing I really like about it is, is that it it normalizes flexibility. And, you know, we've already touched on so many disabled people don't want to well, might not even label themselves as disabled, but might not want to label themselves as disabled. And it gives them the opportunity to use the flexible, flexible, flexible rights provisions without having some big conversation sharing things that they may not be ready to share with their employer. So I think kind of it is a step forward.
I think where I'd where I'm a bit concerned is that, um, actually disabled people do have a stronger right under the Equality Act for reasonable adjustments, um, which doesn't have some of the, um, if you like the, the kind of caveats that the right to flexible working has like, you know, you only get the right to flexible working. Um, if it doesn't, um, go against the business outcomes, whereas with reasonable adjustment, I think you've got, you can, you can show that you need a reasonable adjustment and that that will help you deliver if you like the business outcome.
So it's a slightly different test. So I suppose what worries me a bit is that these two legal provisions are sisters, but no one quite knows how they're going to work together. And the Equality Act, as we've said earlier, the reasonable adjustment provision has got no enforcement kind of guidance, no time limit, nothing. Whereas the government is consulting on the enforcement mechanism and the how many weeks the employer has to get back to you on the flexible working requests. So I think this is causing this will, you know, there's a danger that this is going to cause messiness.
The positive is that the flexible working right can be used by all of us. And I think that is a big step forward. Um, definitely.
I think where I'd where I'm a bit concerned is that, um, actually disabled people do have a stronger right under the Equality Act for reasonable adjustments, um, which doesn't have some of the, um, if you like the, the kind of caveats that the right to flexible working has like, you know, you only get the right to flexible working. Um, if it doesn't, um, go against the business outcomes, whereas with reasonable adjustment, I think you've got, you can, you can show that you need a reasonable adjustment and that that will help you deliver if you like the business outcome.
So it's a slightly different test. So I suppose what worries me a bit is that these two legal provisions are sisters, but no one quite knows how they're going to work together. And the Equality Act, as we've said earlier, the reasonable adjustment provision has got no enforcement kind of guidance, no time limit, nothing. Whereas the government is consulting on the enforcement mechanism and the how many weeks the employer has to get back to you on the flexible working requests. So I think this is causing this will, you know, there's a danger that this is going to cause messiness.
The positive is that the flexible working right can be used by all of us. And I think that is a big step forward. Um, definitely.
15:51
15:51
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Yeah, I really like that description of uh, them as. Esters because I think that's really good. Um, but, but I think the, the, um, the right under the Equality Act, some reasonable adjustments. Trump's flexible working and I think we need to see how it plays out in, in practice. Um, because you could foresee employers turning down flexible working requests under the Employment Rights Act that could be challenged under the Equality Act potentially. And that I think like does feel a bit messy.
Um, you know, I think it's probably, I think for us, it's government trying to make clear. How those two things interact and which one is more important than, than the other. Yeah.
Um, you know, I think it's probably, I think for us, it's government trying to make clear. How those two things interact and which one is more important than, than the other. Yeah.
15:52
15:52
Speaker 6
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Speaker 6
Um. Yes, please. Um, so, um, it's it's worth noting, I think that um access to flexible or hybrid or homeworking doesn't remove disability related costs. It can shift them, um, through increased energy use at home or having to adapt home environment. So we'd really like to see, you know, a faster, more responsive access to work system that can help people with those adaptations, um, with training and support for assessors to work with people with, with fluctuating conditions, delayed support can make work unsustainable and increase the risk of relapse.
But the right support at the right time can be transformative.
But the right support at the right time can be transformative.
15:53
15:53
15:53
Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
Was at an event with Sir Stephen Timms a few weeks ago, and he said, um, one of the things that we talk about is that the bottleneck, the backlog of cases and claims for access to work, and that's actually caused some of the people that we support to drop out of work because they haven't had travel claims paid. Families can't afford to sustain that cost, which is a real shame. And he did say there were more than doubling the number of staff involved in processing claims, and that the backlog would be cleared in September.
And then there was a beat and he said, 2027. And I'd got quite excited because I thought he was going to say September of this year. But I'm delighted anyway, that there are extra people doing those processing things. But I just wanted to come back to this point and put a slightly different point of view around people in understanding the Employment Rights Act and how it's going to affect them at work. For people with learning disabilities, um, helping them to navigate something like that and helping them to understand their rights at work would be very difficult.
And obviously we do try and explain all of that for some of the people we work with, they don't necessarily understand that they're allowed to take holidays. And we, you know, we have to get into a lot of that. We provide a lot of easy read information, but we also have parents who've spent probably most of their lives fighting for the rights of their child in different arenas, education, um, social care, all of those things. And we do have cases where a family will say, oh, well, my son or daughter is working for X employer and has been there as a volunteer for 4 or 5, six years.
So these so people have been working for a commercial organisation and not being paid. But parents will say, but we don't want to rock the boat. So just to say, you know, families are really up against it and probably the Employment Rights Act and, you know, their rights in it will not be at the top of their list. They're just happy that their young person is active and out in the community and doing something worthwhile. I just wanted to put that point of view across.
And then there was a beat and he said, 2027. And I'd got quite excited because I thought he was going to say September of this year. But I'm delighted anyway, that there are extra people doing those processing things. But I just wanted to come back to this point and put a slightly different point of view around people in understanding the Employment Rights Act and how it's going to affect them at work. For people with learning disabilities, um, helping them to navigate something like that and helping them to understand their rights at work would be very difficult.
And obviously we do try and explain all of that for some of the people we work with, they don't necessarily understand that they're allowed to take holidays. And we, you know, we have to get into a lot of that. We provide a lot of easy read information, but we also have parents who've spent probably most of their lives fighting for the rights of their child in different arenas, education, um, social care, all of those things. And we do have cases where a family will say, oh, well, my son or daughter is working for X employer and has been there as a volunteer for 4 or 5, six years.
So these so people have been working for a commercial organisation and not being paid. But parents will say, but we don't want to rock the boat. So just to say, you know, families are really up against it and probably the Employment Rights Act and, you know, their rights in it will not be at the top of their list. They're just happy that their young person is active and out in the community and doing something worthwhile. I just wanted to put that point of view across.
15:55
15:55
Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
Thank you. I just had one point about access to work, and that it is an incredibly useful tool to keep people in work, but very often employers just don't know about it. We've met employers. We did a survey a few years ago. A lot of employers had no awareness. So we would argue it needs to be promoted much more among the general public as well.
15:56
15:56
Speaker 10
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Speaker 10
Thanks, Kim. Um, I've just got a couple more questions on occupational health services. Um, Claire and Patricia, I'll come to you first. Patricia, to what extent can occupational health services help people with fluctuating health conditions remain in work?And what extent do the people you advocate for have access to effective or good and supportive occupational health services?
15:56
Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
Absolutely. It really depends on the employer. It's very patchy. We know it's absolutely critical to people remaining in work if they get the advice soon enough and not when they're at kind of like a critical kind of a moment. So we just think that, uh, good, good, high quality occupational health is very important. Much earlier in the journey, though, people should be having those conversations when they begin work, what's available to them as an employee?What's the employee kind of benefit to them?Um, we just think like the practical support, it's the difference between them falling out of work basically.
But we do think there needs to be some sort of incentives from government to, especially around those small and medium sized businesses who might not be able to offer the same kind of high level of quality support.
But we do think there needs to be some sort of incentives from government to, especially around those small and medium sized businesses who might not be able to offer the same kind of high level of quality support.
15:57
15:57
Speaker 6
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Speaker 6
Um, I think, um, occupational health, um, is often. Often seen as, as punitive. It's a stage that people get to when they've got employers are worried about capability issues. It often focuses on in is this employee fit for work?Um, if there was a more strength based approach, it would ask questions like, you know, what barriers exist, what adjustments would enable this person to thrive, what workplace factors improve productivity and and wellbeing?Um, and, um, as Patricia said, you know, being able to refer early enough for that, that it's not, it's often not a cheap or affordable thing to do for, for small and medium businesses.
15:58
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Yeah. And I guess there's a, you know, employers. Can reject the advice. Uh, which I think plays into plays into your, your question. And I think also I've heard already, but, you know, only a small amount of small and medium businesses provide it. But most of us work in that for one of those companies, a small or medium company. So it feels like a big difference there. Um, I mean, I just wanted to share a story from Carol, who's one of our campaigners, about her experience of occupational health, which I think probably answers the question better than I can.
So, um, she was in work and her employer refused to let her speak to the occupational health um service, and they instead sent information about her from the HR department to the occupational health team and used that to deny carol adjustments. She then had to leave the job as paying for her own adjustment, which is what she was doing was costing her more than she was earning. And she wasn't really actually asking for anything outrageous, just a change to her shift pattern. But the answer was always no, and she felt like she was treated like a troublemaker.
And, you know, I don't think Carol's experiences is unique. I think disabled people have tried to access occupational health up and down the country, have probably had similar experiences. And that's what we need to shift.
So, um, she was in work and her employer refused to let her speak to the occupational health um service, and they instead sent information about her from the HR department to the occupational health team and used that to deny carol adjustments. She then had to leave the job as paying for her own adjustment, which is what she was doing was costing her more than she was earning. And she wasn't really actually asking for anything outrageous, just a change to her shift pattern. But the answer was always no, and she felt like she was treated like a troublemaker.
And, you know, I don't think Carol's experiences is unique. I think disabled people have tried to access occupational health up and down the country, have probably had similar experiences. And that's what we need to shift.
16:00
Speaker 10
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Speaker 10
I'm sure that you all have experiences of the people that you work with. In a similar kind of vein to what James has just said. But what is what would be a suitable level of accountability and who should hold businesses accountable for, for doing that?And what changes can be made to ensure that when occupational health make recommendations that they're actually adhered to and listened to and treated with the seriousness that they should be.
16:00
16:00
14:04
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
It does. It does seem to me from what Claire and James and my own experience, that occupational health often comes in when there's quite an adversarial situation between the employee and the employer. And I don't know, and it feels like they're there for the employer. I don't know what that's my sense of it. And you'd almost have to conceive a different type of occupational health, which was maybe there for the for the person, you know, to talk to the person about what might be some of the solutions and ways forward.
I just, I don't think we can assume the interests of the employer and the employee are the same always. And I just wonder when we talk about occupational health, it always sounds like it's very kind of bland and neutral, but I think it's often paid for by the employer. And as I say, often when it's called in, I think Claire Claire's made the point. The employee disabled employee has more confidence in as understanding the social model, being not having any stigma around disability and what they can and can't do, and being there to really support them continue in that job.
And I don't know if that means rethinking occupational health. I probably, um, think it does isolate.
I just, I don't think we can assume the interests of the employer and the employee are the same always. And I just wonder when we talk about occupational health, it always sounds like it's very kind of bland and neutral, but I think it's often paid for by the employer. And as I say, often when it's called in, I think Claire Claire's made the point. The employee disabled employee has more confidence in as understanding the social model, being not having any stigma around disability and what they can and can't do, and being there to really support them continue in that job.
And I don't know if that means rethinking occupational health. I probably, um, think it does isolate.
14:05
14:05
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Claire said it's only when occupational health is often brought in, when the employer is worried about your capability to do the job. And by that time, it almost feels like you're on different sides of the fence, employee and employer. And I suppose I just, um, wondering whether we need to think about employing disabled employees who need support and some confidential advice about how they could maybe rethink their work or, um, maybe. Maybe getting that before we get to the stage of occupational health, which is an employer service.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
14:05
Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
And often very stressful for the people, the employee involved. It's often very, very difficult. You know, I have to explain sometimes to a person who has Down's syndrome that they need to go to occupational health assessment and trying to explain to them, you know, what that will be about and why they have to do that. It can be very stressful and cause a lot of anxiety. And very often the report doesn't add any value to the situation. And I think for employers, sometimes it's a tick box exercise as well.
14:05
14:05
Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
Patricia would agree. Just would give them the example of sometimes what they ask is isn't very much. So we had a case, also a case study, a man called Ken, he was a nurse in the NHS Scotland actually. Um but he had an occupational health assessment and the outcome was that he just needed a chair and adapted chair. And his line manager said no. So he ended up leaving his role and going to work in bank, which is agency, which is more expensive.
So he can work and he gets flexibility with banking and work when he needs to. So it's often not a huge demand, you know?So yeah.
So he can work and he gets flexibility with banking and work when he needs to. So it's often not a huge demand, you know?So yeah.
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Speaker 10
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Speaker 10
There is. Um, I just have one final question. If there was. And I just want a short answer of what your priority would be for changing the workplace kind of culture and experience for the people that you represent, what would that one, um, priority be?And I'm going to start with James and then I'm going to come to Claire. Did you have a question?
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Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
Educating employees about the support and help that's out there. We talk about diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging at work. And I think that belonging word is probably the most important. We want to help employers to understand they can create a culture of belonging, and they can do it very successfully. And I think that's a better approach than maybe threatening, threatening with the Fair Work Agency and things like that. I think we can bring employees into the fold if we do it right.
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Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
I'd agree it's a mix of stick and carrot approach. I think there has to be more signposting to services. We find employers often don't know what's out there, you know, so and they're actually really good services being funded through like work well and things like that. And like health and work coaching throughout the at the health system, as well as through DWP. But just yeah, absolutely need national guidance. And let's look to like Charlie Mayfield come up with some really good examples of what's happening in Denmark and Sweden.
Early help, good advice and a mix of incentives.
Early help, good advice and a mix of incentives.
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Um, I'd like um, government to really think about what levers it has to begin to move the UK's workforce into being a much more flexible and inclusive workforce. And I'd really like chief executives and like managers at the top to really shout about inclusion and shout about their own disabilities when they've got them, which a lot of them must have because a lot of them are quite old. So I just think, you know, we just need more people at the top really shouting about disability inclusion.
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Speaker 10
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Speaker 10
But this committee has done an inquiry into female entrepreneurship. So I just wanted to touch very quickly on self-employment. And, you know, freelancing and setting up your own business. Um, there are obviously many barriers in that world as well. And I wondered if there's anything any of you have very quickly, uh, that any message you would like to, to give to us as a committee on what could be done differently to support people with disabilities in self-employment.
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
I think there's a huge problem at the moment with access to work for disabled entrepreneurs, and there are more, I think proportionately, like any group that struggles to get into traditional employment, there will be more disabled, um, self-employed and people. And I think that barrier of the access to work scheme, not really supporting them is huge at the moment.
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Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
You just say that it depends on the type of work that someone wants to do as well. Their level of education, what their, you know, what their capabilities are. So I think for some people, we also have case studies of people who left work, started their own businesses, and then created a flexible work environment for others. But that means that they have a high level of education. They've got a good work experience. It really depends on the type of work.
But yeah, having access to good again, government advice, things like that as well, that keeps people in work. It's essential.
But yeah, having access to good again, government advice, things like that as well, that keeps people in work. It's essential.
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