Domestic Abuse Act 2021 Committee

Thursday 3rd September 2026

(began 1 month ago)

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10:38
Baroness Kennedy of Shaws Portrait Baroness Kennedy of Shaws
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One. And can I welcome everyone to this session, which is on the Domestic Abuse Act, which was passed five years ago. And this is Pre-legislative post-legislative scrutiny, seeing how the legislation has worked. And and it's not done with all pieces of legislation, but this piece of legislation has involved changes in many different levels. And so we've wanted to look at whether it was really effective and producing the aims that were sought.

Now, let me just welcome the expert team of witnesses that I have here with me today. I'm sitting there to the left in red is Florence Eshalomi MP. She's the Minister for homelessness, democracy, communities and Faith and was appointed Minister of State in July of this year. Her responsibilities include community, green spaces, social cohesion, faith, homelessness and supported accommodation for domestic abuse victims. And clearly that's the the key issue for us.

With with yourself today. And you were the chair of the co-chair of the Appg. That's the all party parliamentary group on ending homelessness. And so it's going to be a big challenge for you, given the priority the Prime Minister has given to this. But we're very concerned that the victims of domestic abuse are a high priority within that category. And then I'd like to welcome Alex. Alex Davies-jones, who's the parliamentary under-secretary for victims Violence against Women and Girls.

And she's the international justice at the Ministry of Justice. And Alex was appointed parliamentary under-secretary in July as well. So a new and important arrival. She has had responsibilities including criminal law, victims, witnesses and vulnerabilities, rape and serious sexual offences, the Criminal Injuries Compensation Authority and miscarriages of justice. And that's going to keep you very busy, I'm sure. But we're glad to see you here today. And here we have also John McCallister, who's the parliamentary.

Josh. Sorry, Josh. Forgive me. Parliamentary Under-Secretary of state and Josh was appointed parliamentary Under-Secretary of state for Children and Families and at the Department of Education on the September. You were actually in post before you were given that role in September 25th, and you were reappointed in July of this year, and you're. Have really been given priority to the position of children. And that's one of the issues that we want you to deal with here today.

So I want to just start off by saying, how are responsibilities for different provisions of the act divided in practice? I mean, one of the problems we always have with some things is that they fall between ministries. And how do you get that sort of cohesion? Who's accountable for ensuring that the act actually works coherently? And and I see a nod coming from Alex.
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None Portrait Speaker 1
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problems. And. And they're not all that effective. I don't think that will be a a bomb shelter members. But the work that particularly Jess and Alex have led with the Vawg inter-ministerial group is unusual in its effectiveness and the degree of accountability that comes with it, and the fact that there is a clear action plan with a strategy that this has got a very effective. Ministers that have driven it has been a large part of the ability to bring across government commitments together, including at the Department for education.

And I think it's worth if if part of your work is looking at government's ability to work across departments, there is definitely more to to be done. But this is probably one of the areas where that's been more effective than others. And the second is to say that most departments will have an insight into the same group of families that we're concerned about when we're talking about domestic abuse with families where there's a mental health concern, families where there may be substance abuse, substance abuse issues, housing problems, child poverty.

And so we often find ourselves coming at the problem through the perspective of the system. So in my world, that's children's social care, how we make sure that social workers are most effective and equipped in a system to respond to significant harm and abuse , where, you know, with Jess and with health colleagues, I would be chairing the Keeping Children Safe Board, where domestic abuse is a massive feature of the discussions that we're having. And so I guess it's to say that there are moments where we step back as ministers and realise we are talking about the same group of families we are all crowding in or trying to crowd in investment and changes to systems with a common aim.

It doesn't necessarily mean they all fit into the same spreadsheet of tracked actions that are called the Vawg strategy. So on a point of reassurance, I'm happy later on in this session to elaborate a bit more on some of those changes.
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Baroness Hyde of Bemerton Portrait Baroness Hyde of Bemerton
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Yes, thank you, Lord Russell. I would say the biggest challenge that victims are dealing with is the criminal justice system at the moment. Given the incredible backlogs and court delays, the issue of victim support, the capacity problems we have across the system, it is proving incredibly challenging. You will all be aware of the issues surrounding the entire criminal justice system at the moment. Prisons at capacity, courts with severe delays, rape victims waiting three four years for their trials to get to court.

Victim support very patchy across the across England and Wales, particularly for child victims who, as you quite rightly pointed out, chair were recognised for the first time as victims in their own right as part of this act. Yet services and support for them is still very, very limited. All of this has been recognised by not just the Ministry of Justice, but by the cross-Government working Group to tackle the problem. We have funded record levels of court sitting days.

We have funded record levels of victim support services, half over half a billion for the next three years, and made that funding available for three years, which is something that the sector primarily told us was needed in order to put that sustainability and continuity in place. However, it's not enough. It's not enough. In terms of the court sitting days, it's not enough in terms of victim support services. So we really, really need to get to the heart of tackling prevention, looking at what more we can do.

Specialist domestic abuse courts, problem solving courts are doing really, really great transformative work, which is where the judge follows the victim and perpetrator through the entire journey, bringing in positive requirement trainings, which was something that the domestic abuse protection orders, again introduced in the Act were are we are trialling them across specific areas in England and Wales at the moment, but they are truly life saving. They are. So we're committed to rolling them out as quickly as possible.

But again, there's issues with them because they don't cover children. So family courts are choosing not to use them. So again we've recognised this and are seeking to address it. But in terms of the provision. So the funding, the record funding for police and crime commissioners, which is devolved to them, but we've ring fenced the violence against women and girls part that we give to them ensures that they are able to fund more adverse and child adverse where necessary, because we know victims have told me the huge, huge impact that they make in the Courts and Tribunals bill that is currently making its way through the Commons.

We have made a provision for it to sit as a trusted person in the courtroom with victims as well. So that will be a new measure that we're introducing to improve victim experience in court. We are getting rid of so-called bad character, good character evidence in the court as well, which can be used to showcase perpetrators in specific lights, which is not helpful, and also to discredit victims and survivors of domestic abuse as well. We're also ensuring that trauma informed training is rolled out across the criminal justice system for every part of it, because that is essential in terms of how victims and survivors are treated within the system, working with the judiciary, who who are, of course , independent, but who recognise that domestic abuse and particularly coercive and controlling behaviour needs to be better identified in the courtrooms.

So the judicial college are working on training packages. They've been working with Women's Aid to develop this, and I am looking forward to actually seeing, for the first time ever this training being rolled out. So the judicial college and the judiciary have invited me in to witness this, which is a first. I'm very looking forward to that too.
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None Portrait Speaker 1
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So , well, in 2 in 2 parts again, the, the, the biggest barrier for parents and adults in terms of the children's social care response is that we have a children's social care system that over a number of years has become increasingly skewed towards late stage crisis intervention. It's now spending about £15 billion a year. And whilst that's gone up hugely above inflation every year, that's been driven by a rise in the number of children in care, and particularly those in residential care where costs have escalated.

And so we're in a cycle of more and more of the share of overall spending going on that late stage, costly and often poorer outcome resulting service, which has squeezed what was already a very limited amount of support for families in the first place. The government's plan, which follows my independent review of children's social care, which was published under the previous government in 2022, has now got a £2.4 billion reset package over the next three years.

We're into the first full year of that rollout across England at the moment. That's money going into local authorities. That's conditional upon those areas building up a family help service, which is multidisciplinary. It's not just social workers. It's made up of other practitioners, including those that work in domestic abuse fields, that can do more intensive work to help change family circumstances before the crisis escalates into a child protection or care concern for for the child.

I can say a lot more about that, but the essentially the main system obstacle is finite resource to help families. Because of the doom loop of late stage crisis interventions that is being addressed at the moment through a massive programme of change that's about funding and legislation specifically for children. The biggest barrier, if you're a practitioner at the moment is there is no UK based, evidence based intervention of what works to respond to children as victims of domestic abuse, which is staggering because it is one of the most prevalent causes for state intervention in family life.

And so we are feeling around in the dark for what to do that's effective for these children. And if this was any other public health area, we would have had four years randomised controlled trials, impact evaluations in the field, identifying what works and what doesn't. And it's not just a UK problem that is a worldwide issue of of an evidence gap. Before being elected here, I was the executive chair of foundations, which is the What Works Centre for Children and Families.

We began a programme of building up the evidence around the most promising interventions, two that are currently now in in evaluation, bounce back for kids and for babies sake. And I believe that you've heard as a committee from from the organisations behind those both have been through or are in a randomised controlled trial as a pilot, one of them's now in a full pilot, full randomised controlled trial. That matters so much for the Department for education and the work that we're doing, because establishing a proven model of intervention, which changes outcomes for children who are victims of domestic abuse, allows me, as a minister, to set practice guidance that can then be inspected against.

So the system follows scientific, rigorous evidence of efficacy, rather than spending lots of money on lots of people trying to do their best, which sometimes can cause more harm than good. And a good example of this is some of the evidence around doing group work with perpetrators can actually be can result in not just it not being effective, but can be counter counter to the effort. So yeah, there's a specific problem to overcome in regards to what works.

And there is a broader system dynamic at play, which we're we're addressing.
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None Portrait Speaker 2
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Good morning. From a housing perspective, the biggest barrier is definitely access to secure, safe, affordable social housing. There simply isn't enough accommodation for for women and children fleeing domestic abuse. And you look at a situation across England where a majority of councils are seeing major financial challenges. And in my former role as the chair of the housing, Communities and Local Government Select Committee, one of the key areas we looked at was the issues around temporary accommodation and the impact on women and children.

And and that report highlighted because of the situation with housing, there are some councils who are sadly sending women fleeing domestic abuse into shared accommodation with men who have just been released from prison. There are women sharing accommodation where they're having to use facilities and mixed kitchens, bathrooms with men and, you know, known abusers. You have situations where children are being placed outside of their home borough, so families are travelling up to two hours just to get to school every morning.

So the impact that's having on those children, you have a situation where a number of councils, because of this pressure are are looking at this situation where they're placing families and women fleeing domestic abuse in hotels, no cooking facilities, no proper washing facilities. The impact that is having on women who are fleeing really horrific circumstances is just adding additional burden onto that. So I think the key area that we are looking at from Mhclg is how we are working with local authorities in terms of bringing down the temporary accommodation Bill.

A number of councils across England have been given additional support in the form of exceptional financial support to stop them going into bankruptcy, but that's not a solution because, in essence, we don't want councils relying on on almost, you know, what we've described across the sector as an overdraft facility from the government and how do we look at fixing the long term issues. And that will only happen if we build the homes. That will not happen overnight.

The government's key ambition is making sure we build 1.5 million new homes before the end of this Parliament. And what I'm really keen to see is making sure a number of those homes are affordable homes that will be able to address this issue. But but in the interim, there are things that we can be doing. And in terms of looking at areas where we can help, it's around making sure councils are remembering their duty. So we regularly expect, inspect and help councils on that.

It's around funding for the Women's Aid. No one turned away. So when women and children are presenting before their local councils for emergency accommodation, they're not being turned away. It's around looking at plans, working with housing associations and private housing providers around what more they could be doing in terms of that duty. It's around some of the really good plans in the No fault Evictions and Renters Rights Act bill, where we are securing tenancies for women, where before that threat of being evicted by a landlord for no good reason was hanging over their head, you know, you've finally been able to secure somewhere and then that threat of being evicted because the landlord just changed their mind.

So I think that's a monumental piece of legislation that will help many women in terms of having a base, having roots in the social housing bill that's that's going through now. There'll be additional changes to protect the tenancies, because we're finding that whenever there is an issue around domestic abuse, it's the women and children that have to leave the property. Why should they? And in most cases, the abuser stays in a property. So making sure we are addressing that through legislation so women and children have a safe space to to get to lay their heads.

But I think it's recognising that there is a lot more to do on that, on the Itfa one. So the Itf's are generally supported by major funding for the housing efforts. It's a local decision from the councils in terms of how they allocate that funding. So again, working with the Local Government Association and other councils, ensuring that that money is being spent in the right area. So I think there's a lot to be done. But I think rightly, there's a lot more that needs to be done to address this area.
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Baroness Neate Portrait Baroness Neate
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Yeah. So just to say, I mean, I'm really heartened actually from everything all three of you have said about addressing some of the real systemic issues that lie behind. And, and, you know, in my professional experience, I've seen all of those. And, you know, I am heartened by that. And I guess my question is kind of about the here and now really. So one of the things that we've heard repeatedly in the evidence, and which certainly I've personally seen, is just the lack of understanding of domestic abuse right now and the dynamics of domestic abuse in many of the professions that victim survivors and their children come into contact with on a daily basis now, and also a lack of understanding and knowledge of the responsibilities that some of those statutory agencies hold in relation to domestic abuse and the interplay between those statutory duties and a real and getting the dynamics behind domestic abuse so that you really know when you should be applying those duties in the first place.

And I just one way to address this could be mandatory or improved training. Training is not a panacea. Absolutely. Get that. But it could be one way to address this knowledge gap. And this is a kind of short term issue, and it has been going on for a long time. So I just wanted to know what views you have on. And we've heard a bit about the judiciary, which is absolutely brilliant.

I have to say, we have heard that the family court is a retraumatising experience for survivors, and I've certainly seen that in my career a lot. So I'd like to just hear a bit more about training in the judiciary, in local authorities, and particularly maybe housing, and also in children's social work, children's services, because again, the understanding of just the dynamics of domestic abuse among children's social workers is often not great.
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None Portrait Speaker 2
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Yeah. I think from a housing perspective, it is important that we are looking at the there's an independent evaluation on part four of the duty, which found that in some places the duty had been strengthened by local authorities, but I think it's fair to say there is work and report back, and I'm sure you've probably seen some of the evidence that across different local authorities, it can be a bit patchy. It's not that I'm here to defend local authorities, but equally talk about the challenges that they continue to face.

Many of them have had to take difficult decisions in terms of funding and and changes in frontline staff. But it's how we in the ministry continue to remind them of their duty under that act. So I think it's about how do we look at the infrastructure, local experiences and what additional support they have. So we do regularly engage with with different local authorities just in terms of their implementation of part for duty. So there are regular webinars, just reminding them about about that and looking at how we can help.

We're also investing an additional 12 million over the next three years looking at the workforce capability and homelessness team during the National Workforce Programme. And I think that will be a key area to pick up some of the key issues. I think that there was a report from a crisis or shelter I need to double check. But again, just looking at specific training for housing officers, especially when they are coming into contact with people who are presenting as homelessness.

So just recognising that because I think it's really important where, you know, all staff are trained to recognize when a women, you know, women and others are presenting with, you know, with homelessness and, and it's coming from a background, but I think it's recognising that there is a lot more that we can be doing on the train. And I think these are key areas that we'll continue to focus on.
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None Portrait Speaker 1
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is the notification system. When police get a call for a suspected domestic abuse incident, it automatically notifies the designated safeguarding lead or the headteacher of the primary school. The child in that household attends so many, many stories now of teachers greeting a child at the school gate. And they may not have a conversation with the young person, but they know a little bit about what might have been going on for them the night before. And it does something really powerful to close some of that gap between information being shared between different services.

Operation compass, it's roll out, the strengthening of keeping children Safe in education guidance, which is an effective Bible for designated safeguarding leads in schools that has heightened awareness in the education field. And I think education is doing a much better job than it was a few years ago. In recognising the the impact of domestic abuse. And there's a lot more to do. We're making changes to the Irish relationship, sex and health education curriculum to put a greater emphasis on violence against women and girls, domestic abuse, and what healthy relationships look like.

And further to that, we're working with the Home Office as part of the cross-government Vawg strategy to test and roll out whole school approaches to improve that, that kind of development for children. And a big part of that is what we're doing to support teachers in teaching it. On the children's social care side amongst social workers. So this gap around knowledge of domestic abuse and its impacts has been flagged by a number of reports, including my own back in 2022.

And the national panel looks at patterns around very serious incidents and child deaths. Also highlights again and again gaps in knowledge. And so what we are doing, again, off the back of a recommendation from my work taken forward by this government, is building a new post qualifying professional development program. So at the moment, lots of effort goes into getting social workers qualified. But we know from any field of expertise that the kind of novice to expert journey really begins when you're in practice working with families and honing your craft.

So we are introducing a new post qualifying, two year early career standard for all social workers. We'll fund it across the whole of England. We're right now appointing a number of national lead providers who will be really good in the quality of what they're designing the curricula to be. I've set out and published new standards that those curriculum bodies need to meet, and that will be rolled out from September next year. So this time next year, all new social workers for the first two years will be getting very high quality instructional teaching on how to build and advance their knowledge and skill beyond just the initial experience of social work.

And again, further to that, we've set another set of standards out for lead child protection practitioners. These are social workers who should be even more experienced, who will be working in multi-agency child protection teams. So these are essentially the social workers making the very difficult decisions about whether the threshold for significant harm has been met, where the state steps in to a family and says, this is not a relationship we've got based on your consent.

This is the state saying, we are so worried. We are now getting involved in the family in a way which is much more hands on and may result in a care order for those social workers. We've set an even higher expectation on their knowledge and skill, and there'll be a corresponding professional development programme for them as well.
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None Portrait Speaker 2
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think measures in the Housing and Social housing bill will help that in terms of the roll out to to have it in legislation to increase protections for victims of domestic abuse. So that would be a way that we could essentially roll out what they're piloting in in Greater Manchester. Another area is looking at developing a domestic abuse homelessness prevention kit, because prevention, as we know, is better than cure. How do we stop people who are fleeing domestic abuse, facing homelessness in the first instance, it's always a good way.

So I think it's looking at a range of packages. You know, are there patterns in terms of people falling behind on their rent? Are there issues where we are seeing children not attending school? These are key signs to show that there is something going on within that family unit and making sure that, you know, housing officers and staff are able to spot that working in conjunction with children's social workers. So developing that homelessness prevention toolkit is something that we're keen to look at in, in the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government, making sure that's rolled out and supported by the Local Government Association.

I think also the the other area that I would want to talk to is around the whole housing approach delivered by standing together against domestic abuse. So this is a key framework in looking at how you address housing and safety needs across all tenures. We do talk about social housing a lot, but actually this has happened in the private rented sector. This is happening with owner occupiers. This is happening with people who own their own property and who, you know, we know that people in many different forms of housing face domestic abuse.

So that's another area where I think in terms of innovation, to capture some of the issues around domestic abuse and homelessness and rough sleeping. So it's a key area that I think, you know, making sure we're talking to to all sectors. So again, it's not just a role for local authorities. What role do our housing associations who again, have a large chunk of homes, what role do private landlords play in this, who again have a large chunk in terms of people with with tenancy? And
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None Portrait Speaker 2
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the.
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None Portrait Speaker 1
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know.
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None Portrait Speaker 4
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Councils across England are spending over. £2 billion a year on that. So it's a big issue in terms of, you know, how much housing provision is. available for for women and children fleeing domestic abuse. And part four of the duty in terms of providing that accommodation is locally led, and it enables local authorities to be able to. respond to to the needs within their respective areas and the statutory, you know, MH Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government.

guidance has clear national. expectations on how local authorities should be carrying out and making sure that they all meet in that. And I think it is important that we have it is locally led. But however, it is a case where in some local authorities, they just do not have the means to be able to house people fleeing domestic abuse. And it's how we build a new services and help with those local authorities.

In last July, there was a review and evaluation which found that the. The duty had seen significant improvements across different local authorities. But as you said, there is still still some patches depending on where where you live, you know, some areas not having any form of decent accommodation, some areas having really poor accommodation. And all of this comes as a cost to the taxpayer. You know, there's a big cost to this because this is public money funding some of this unsuitable accommodation.

So I do acknowledge that there is variations across different local authorities depending on which local council you present to at any one day in terms of homelessness. And I think it's how we continue to work with the sector, with homelessness.
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None Portrait Speaker 1
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keen to understand as well your current thinking around that. Thank you. You're right to highlight this, the Domestic Abuse Protection Order pilots that are currently live in five pilot areas have been . transformational where they've been granted, they've definitely saved lives. We know this for a fact. The police have stated that around a thousand of them have been issued thus far, and we have seen really, really strong evidence of police responding to any breaches of them immediately with the recall to prison.

That has made a dramatic difference. The difference that being able to apply for them via third parties, local. authorities has also made a huge difference. We have committed to rolling them out nationally and doing so quickly, whilst also recognising that they're not perfect. In terms of, as I've already stated, they don't cover children, so the family courts are favouring to still choose. Non-molestation orders over domestic abuse protection orders at the moment, for quite obvious reasons, because they cover children too.

So that is something we are determined, a loophole we are determined to close, but we do need legislation to do so. But we have plans in in train to do so. You're right to. identify patchy nature again of positive requirement trainings. It is down to funding and practitioners being. available in certain areas. North Wales, where currently the pilot is operating, has shown really good promise with this. In terms of the Police and Crime Commissioner Andy Dunbabin there really.

prioritising it and funding it as well. But again, it depends on the Police and Crime Commissioner and the funding from the Home Office. So all of this is very joined up and we are alive to that and we are getting real world feedback. Another challenge has been legal aid. So yes, we have provided legal aid for the depots for victims to be able to apply. But because of the nature of how the legal aid is.
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None Portrait Speaker 3
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. Understood
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None Portrait Speaker 3
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they need to.
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None Portrait Speaker 4
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Is needed in local.
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Baroness Kennedy of Shaws Portrait Baroness Kennedy of Shaws
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would appreciate it. And thank you for the spirit of your comments as well. And I think Stuart Stewart was, was a voice that was really important in in the children's issue when this legislation went through and he stayed with it. And as come on to the committee, basically because it's so close to his heart and as it is for all of us. But but it was particularly important that he took a stand and, and, and it's had an impact.

So I'm sure that you could work closely with him, but I, I like him want to say that. And I'm sure this is a view shared by everybody. It is really heartening hearing the, the depth of understanding that all three of you have. And of course, and, and, and as Stuart has said, Josh, the idea that you're you're the man in this seat is, is a particularly reassuring thing. And it's really wonderful.

Alex. There's an issue that Lord Russell wanted to raise. And I think it's in all of our minds, in the in the hot discussion that there's been about releasing people from prison in order to deal with the crisis within the prison system. And we can't underestimate just how serious that crisis is, because we do want those who might, you know, be arrested tonight having viciously assaulted or raped a girl or woman. We want there to be a place for them to go.

And we and that will be happening. Not just one, a one off, but up and down the country. Every night there are going to be people arrested for doing terrible things. So there is a serious challenge here. But there's also the issue of what happens around domestic violence. And you know, that many of the victims have said the idea that the man who made my life so wretched and my children's lives so wretched and who has even after we separated, pursued and harassed and made me terrified for my very existence.

Coming out of prison tomorrow is a very. Or in September. Whenever is is a very frightening prospect. I needed a period of .
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None Portrait Speaker 3
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. That there
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None Portrait Speaker 3
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. The.
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None Portrait Speaker 3
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to be.
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None Portrait Speaker 3
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. Helpful to
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