Justice Committee
Tuesday 8th September 2026
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14:38
Tessa Munt
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Tessa Munt
Order. Order! Welcome to this session of the Justice Committee. This is the second session of our Youth Justice Inquiry and focus on sentencing in youth justice cases and community based alternatives to custody. For our second panel, we'll be hearing from the Children's Commissioner. But first, we're hearing from the Youth Justice Board and the Youth Justice Legal Centre. Before we begin our questioning, the members of the committee will need to briefly make their direct declarations of interest.
So can I start? Ashley.
So can I start? Ashley.
14:39
14:39
Tessa Munt
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Tessa Munt
There we are. I'm Tess. I'm acting chair this afternoon until we elect our chair for the next session of Parliament. So I'm the member of Parliament for Wells and Mendip Hills, which is in Somerset. And I'm also a director and the vice chair of whistleblowers UK, which is a not for profit organisation, and the Chair of Penal Affairs, Appg, the all party parliamentary group. Thank you.
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14:40
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14:40
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Yes, I am Laura Cooper. I am a director of the Youth Justice Legal Centre. I'm a specialist youth justice lawyer, and the Youth Justice Legal Centre is a centre of excellence and innovation in youth justice, law and practice, and we support professionals to get better outcomes for children with the the aim that that benefits the wider community and society.
14:40
Pam Cox
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Pam Cox
Hi everyone. I'm Steph Roberts, I'm the chief exec of the Youth Justice Board. We're an arm's length body of government sponsored by the Ministry of Justice. We have a number of statutory functions that come out of the Crime and Disorder Act, namely to provide advice to ministers on how best to prevent children offending, and another a number of other functions relating to overseeing the system, exchanging information and publishing data, sharing best practice and commissioning and undertaking research on the cohort of children in the system.
14:41
14:41
14:41
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Yeah. So so the sentencing framework is intended to be and rightly extremely different to that of the adult framework. So it's important to start with the, with, with the child and not and not look at go to the adult guidelines. And there are a number of guiding principles that that must be considered and followed in relation to children. So you have. You know, you have an entirely different approach.
So you've got to look at a number of different key principles. So we have the statutory aim of preventing offending, obviously, under section 37 of the Crime and Disorder Act, you've got to look you've got to have regard for the welfare of the child, the best interests, the under the UN CRC. And then obviously these are all reflected in the Sentencing Council guidelines for children and young people. And so there's obviously got to be a very individualized approach.
And that sort of all brought together with the child first principles that were that were embedded by the. They can it does, it can it overlaps often in many cases. And so that's a consideration as well. And also, I would agree with you that, you know, absolutely. I think victims need better information. We see it through our advice. And again, as well, when they're contacting us that they are not getting, you know, information about what's happening with their case.
And so there's a whole piece around that that we definitely see that that is that is missing to ensure they understand what's happening, why that outcome is being given to forgive.
So you've got to look at a number of different key principles. So we have the statutory aim of preventing offending, obviously, under section 37 of the Crime and Disorder Act, you've got to look you've got to have regard for the welfare of the child, the best interests, the under the UN CRC. And then obviously these are all reflected in the Sentencing Council guidelines for children and young people. And so there's obviously got to be a very individualized approach.
And that sort of all brought together with the child first principles that were that were embedded by the. They can it does, it can it overlaps often in many cases. And so that's a consideration as well. And also, I would agree with you that, you know, absolutely. I think victims need better information. We see it through our advice. And again, as well, when they're contacting us that they are not getting, you know, information about what's happening with their case.
And so there's a whole piece around that that we definitely see that that is that is missing to ensure they understand what's happening, why that outcome is being given to forgive.
14:58
Ashley Fox
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Ashley Fox
Me, this isn't just a question of information for victims. This is about the criminals receiving a punishment that is seen by society and the victims as just. And very often, if the if the aim of the. The court system and the punishment is to rehabilitate the criminal, then I. My view is we lose sight of the need to punish the criminals and for society to see that they've been punished.
14:58
Pam Cox
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Pam Cox
I think. I think, though, this is so we could perhaps give you some data, Sir Ashley, on the what we call the victim perpetrator paradigm. So a number of children who have been victims before they become perpetrators, which I think might be helpful for your discussions. But I think this goes back to the point that we were making at the very first point about the sentencing framework, that the law says the purpose of the youth justice system is to prevent further offending.
It doesn't say to punish in the way that the framework for adults does. And I think so when people are, you know, no one goes to work to do a bad job. So I think people are coming at this from what does the evidence tell us? What does the legislation require that I do? And at the moment, the legislation and the Crime and Disorder Act 1998 is very clear. The youth justice system is there to prevent future and further offending.
And I think that that talks to not only the sentencing framework, but then the role of custody. And I know, again, you spoke about that a lot. We know that taking children into what I call the depths of imprisonment actually contributes to higher reoffending rates, particularly when their needs are not being met. We're unable to give them any fence related work because they may be locked in their rooms for 2223 hours a week, not gaining meaningful access to education, not having their full range of health needs met, not having their trauma addressed.
It doesn't say to punish in the way that the framework for adults does. And I think so when people are, you know, no one goes to work to do a bad job. So I think people are coming at this from what does the evidence tell us? What does the legislation require that I do? And at the moment, the legislation and the Crime and Disorder Act 1998 is very clear. The youth justice system is there to prevent future and further offending.
And I think that that talks to not only the sentencing framework, but then the role of custody. And I know, again, you spoke about that a lot. We know that taking children into what I call the depths of imprisonment actually contributes to higher reoffending rates, particularly when their needs are not being met. We're unable to give them any fence related work because they may be locked in their rooms for 2223 hours a week, not gaining meaningful access to education, not having their full range of health needs met, not having their trauma addressed.
14:59
15:00
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15:00
Warinder Juss
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Warinder Juss
Yeah, I just wanted to come in there. Following on from the previous line of questioning, I do understand that members of the public do want to see offenders being punished, but is it not right to focus on preventing reoffending? Because, I mean, the main purpose of that is not only about the individual who is offended, but also preventing further victims in the future. Absolutely. I mean, that's paramount, isn't it? Would you not agree? I mean,
15:00
15:01
15:01
Janet Daby
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Janet Daby
Yeah. Thank you. Chair. Just for context, a custodial sentence is used as a last resort for an offence where a fine or a type of community sentence can't be justified. And Steph, I just want to come to you. I just want to ask, is custody currently being used as a last resort for children and young people?
15:01
Pam Cox
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Pam Cox
I feel that custody is generally being used when a child has been found guilty of an offence. It's for me, the concern about the high levels of remand and the unnecessary use of remand, which is very, very high and there is much more we could and we are trying to do and indeed should be doing to prevent children being taken into that environment, particularly when so many of them then don't go on to get a custodial sentence. So we have further traumatised them.
We've separated them from family, loved ones, we've put locked them in rooms for 22 hours a day, exacerbated perhaps any underlying mental health conditions, and we've disrupted their education if they are in education. So I think we really, really need to be looking at how can we continue to reduce remand. We are clear there is a place for custody in the most exceptional and serious offences that should be available to us, but the current arrangements for delivery of care to children in custody is, in our view, not fit, not fit for purpose.
And I want to be really clear. You know, that's that's not about operational failures. That's about systemic failures, but which we know impact on particular groups of children more than others. Laura spoke a bit earlier about disproportionality, particularly of children from global majority backgrounds. So black, brown and mixed background children, but also those children who have special educational needs, neurodiversity and underlying mental health conditions.
We've separated them from family, loved ones, we've put locked them in rooms for 22 hours a day, exacerbated perhaps any underlying mental health conditions, and we've disrupted their education if they are in education. So I think we really, really need to be looking at how can we continue to reduce remand. We are clear there is a place for custody in the most exceptional and serious offences that should be available to us, but the current arrangements for delivery of care to children in custody is, in our view, not fit, not fit for purpose.
And I want to be really clear. You know, that's that's not about operational failures. That's about systemic failures, but which we know impact on particular groups of children more than others. Laura spoke a bit earlier about disproportionality, particularly of children from global majority backgrounds. So black, brown and mixed background children, but also those children who have special educational needs, neurodiversity and underlying mental health conditions.
15:03
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15:18
Pam Cox
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Pam Cox
And those provisions aren't always readily available. I think Laura spoke to this as well, have multiple complex needs that need support from multiple services at the right time in the community. So I think what we need are not only beds for children from a sort of a privatised market, but we need a bed with a holistic, trauma informed, wraparound support that we have. A real assurance is going to work to meet the needs of the child so they don't cause harm.
So I hope that and that, I think, addresses the where there's being increased, because some of those private provisions are very, very expensive for local authorities. We're talking thousands of pounds , and that there could be seen as a cheaper option of remanding into custody.
So I hope that and that, I think, addresses the where there's being increased, because some of those private provisions are very, very expensive for local authorities. We're talking thousands of pounds , and that there could be seen as a cheaper option of remanding into custody.
15:18
Sarah Russell
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Sarah Russell
You mentioned that there was a lack of sitting days of youth courts. Do you know anything about statistics in terms of how many children are being sentenced or had have their hearings in the mags versus the youth courts versus the Crown Court? And where do you think that should be if it's not where you currently think it should be?
15:19
Pam Cox
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Pam Cox
15:19
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Yeah. I mean, for us, we we train youth justice services around the country and we hear regularly that the children are, you know, because some areas of the country, the children are remanded and there's only a court sitting once every two weeks for a youth court. They are invariably in an adult setting when they are having their first appearance, hence the remand. And so that is a concern that we do hear about, again, anecdotally around the country from youth justice services, when we when we train them around court bail and remand.
15:20
Sarah Russell
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Sarah Russell
One of my other concerns is about the fact that there is no potential for the Attorney General to make references for unduly lenient sentences associated with either the magistrates court or the youth Court. Do you have any information or any sense around whether or not children are being sentenced in those courts versus the Crown Court and to sort of to what extent and and with what regularity for serious violent offences.
15:20
Pam Cox
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Pam Cox
We I don't have a sense that they're being I think you're I think you're asking me, do I think that there's any evidence they're being sentenced inappropriately? I think if I if tell me if I'm putting words in your mouth, I don't intend to be. We don't have any any evidence to suggest that. And we are very close to the frontline centre. So I would have expected if Youth Justice Services felt that children were being inappropriately sentenced, we'd pick that up.
I do think we've got some concerns about potential changes of net widening that may come from some of the changes in the white paper that we would be providing advice on, as the government starts to consult on those changes to sentencing to make sure that we're not net widening, we're not bringing more children in, because I think the intent of the White Paper is absolutely honourable. I think there's a bit that could be strengthened in terms of looking at the current evidence base, and that might include some of the data that you've referred to.
I do think we've got some concerns about potential changes of net widening that may come from some of the changes in the white paper that we would be providing advice on, as the government starts to consult on those changes to sentencing to make sure that we're not net widening, we're not bringing more children in, because I think the intent of the White Paper is absolutely honourable. I think there's a bit that could be strengthened in terms of looking at the current evidence base, and that might include some of the data that you've referred to.
15:21
15:21
Pam Cox
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Pam Cox
So net widening is where you may bring more children into the system, because you're going to change some of the sentencing framework. So I'm trying to give a good example. So you may be trying to prevent you may be trying to think about an alternative sentence, perhaps, but that may then create a gap, which means that rather than a child getting a community sentence, they may be brought into custody.
15:21
Sarah Russell
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Sarah Russell
Where children aren't getting community sentences because there aren't consistently available community. Options, both in terms of remand, because there's nowhere for them to go or after sentencing. What's the what is hindering community sentence or or on remand options? Are they different problems and are they.
15:22
15:22
15:22
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
I think one area that we see is with with variable levels of intensive supervision. So the direct alternative to custody is a youth rehabilitation or within intensive supervision and surveillance. That was initially there was quite a lot of, you know, when it when it first came in, it was very much about being this alternative to custody, intensive supervision and surveillance as, as it says, really structured activities, electronic tag and so forth. But that now is becoming really in again, anecdotally, and Steph might have things around that.
But anecdotally, with youth surface Services, we go to delivering sentencing training. Is that the that ES is variable. Some areas don't have it. Some areas do some yeah. Some areas just can't can't afford it. So it's a really it's really varied. And therefore that option in front of the court is can be limited for some children in different areas of the country. So they just don't have that alternative. They're available.
But anecdotally, with youth surface Services, we go to delivering sentencing training. Is that the that ES is variable. Some areas don't have it. Some areas do some yeah. Some areas just can't can't afford it. So it's a really it's really varied. And therefore that option in front of the court is can be limited for some children in different areas of the country. So they just don't have that alternative. They're available.
15:23
Pam Cox
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Pam Cox
And it talks to the point about earlier when I said about the sentencing framework is pretty robust. It's the application of that by geography and locality. So I think there are a number of things, just as Laura was speaking that I wrote down here, the first is capacity. So do you have workforce capacity to be able to. So with intensive supervision and surveillance, you would expect a child to be working with a youth justice worker, probably on a daily basis.
They would be expected to attend somewhere to be doing something constructive, whether that's reparation work, education or training. It's a lot of the day that they are expected to be doing something, and that, of course, needs a resource. So there's something about workforce capacity. The second is about the capacity of partner agencies as well. So these are the children with the most complex needs. So there may be, for instance, on a waiting list for a mental health intervention.
They may be waiting an assessment
They would be expected to attend somewhere to be doing something constructive, whether that's reparation work, education or training. It's a lot of the day that they are expected to be doing something, and that, of course, needs a resource. So there's something about workforce capacity. The second is about the capacity of partner agencies as well. So these are the children with the most complex needs. So there may be, for instance, on a waiting list for a mental health intervention.
They may be waiting an assessment
15:39
15:39
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
And we need to really, really think about workforce, you know, some of the roles that we need people to be working. And so it is across all statutory partners that I think that's a challenge. I think there's a challenge in skills and capability. I think there is a lack, a lack of in the . So clinical.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
I think is a challenge. And then we would say an understanding of the evidence base, which we've spoken about with you and colleagues today and really understanding what works. And we see that as our role to really help people to. understand what works best. And there are gaps in the evidence base, and we need to be better. I think coming together across the. academic arena to be, to, to, to use all of the resources that are there to answer some of the really big questions, some of the questions you've asked me today that we couldn't answer, we should be .
Able to,
Able to,
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15:42
Tessa Munt
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Tessa Munt
Resume with our second panel. Our witnesses, the Children's Commissioner. Welcome. And I'm going to ask you very briefly if you would introduce yourself. I'm Rachel de Souza, children's Commissioner for England. Thank you very much indeed. And can you explain the role of the Children's Commissioner in relation to the youth justice system? Yeah. I mean, look, I it's my job to protect the rights, the rights of every child under 18 in this country to protect and promote their rights.
I have a particular responsibility to those living away from home. Children with custodial sentences are living away from home. So one of the things and I have a few superpowers, one of those are to enter anywhere where children are any public place where children are. So I often turn up at YOIS and other places that children are in custodial in with custodial sentences and just enter and talk to them. I'll be bringing some of their voices to you today.
I go stand at Kent is a small boats come in and meet the children there. You know, wherever there are children who are away from their parents, it's my job to be there and talk to them and see them. I also have data powers and I've been using. You will see some of the things the work I've done in youth justice is around the use of those data powers. We were the it's my team that that continually look at the number of children in remand.
For example, look at the backgrounds of children in the youth justice system, particularly those with custodial sentences. I did a piece of work on the educational journeys of every single child who's been in prison over the last five years. You will be horrified to know that 20% of them went to six schools. We traced their. We literally traced back their educational journeys. So it's my job to use those data powers to really get under the skin of, you know, of children and young people's experiences.
I also get the voice of those young people, both victims and perpetrators, and try to bring that to you as parliamentarians, to government and to senior public servants, to try to get them to understand children's experience. Thank you. Can I just ask you to repeat that bit of data you just gave to us? It's on my website. So basically we I did a piece of work on the educational journeys and what schools , every, every child who's been in a yoi or had a custodial sentence, what, where they went to school when they were last at school and 20% of them went to six schools.
It's on my website. You can read it. I did a media round on it, I apologize, I didn't know that. Yeah. Thank you. And your and we've worked out exactly. We've talked to the school leaders where, you know, and for some of those school leaders, there was one particular school that had 42 children who'd been had custodial sentences and they didn't know. And so I was able, because I wanted to know, were they doing something right? For example, were they bringing children in particularly? But no.
So, you know, we've tried to make sure that we sit with those boys and talk to them. They feel you can see they're coming to terms with what they've done. They're thinking about their lives. They've been taken through that. So I think it's it's that smaller environment rather than the big YOY adult prison wing, which is what the y y just feels like an adult prison . I've been to, you know, the scrubs. I've been to Feltham.
There's the scrubs are calmer. Yeah, it's let's be honest. So so I think smaller, more, more actually more challenge for change to the young person. I mean, I've had kids, you know, in secure children's homes telling me, telling me what they've done. I killed my brother. Will I ever have a normal life, you know, and been able to have the space to have the conversation? No. But you could have a good life.
And so we, we, you know, and you, you can change and you can do things. It's , we need an environment that can allow for that process, you know, to happen. Whereas when I'm in our office, I'm just going to give you an example of this is what I'm dealing with with YOY. So I did a entry, you know, just turned up to get me, get me some young people to talk to. And one boy was brought to me, a boy on remand, six foot one black boy obviously got special educational needs.
Obviously, he was colouring in a piece of paper that said, I'm on the verge of something amazing and a big boy. And he was looking over his shoulders because he said, Because I'm tall, they try and make me fight and if I don't fight, then they fight. The other gangs get me. So I said to him, what do you want me to tell the Prime Minister about boys in your eyes? And that's what I'm I'm telling you.
What do you want me to tell the Prime Minister about boys in your eyes? And I was expecting. We want better education. Normally it's, you know. Well, we want more vocational things, more sport. He said, can you tell him I'm starving? And literally, because he'd been in fights and he was locked in his room for, you know, many, many hours a day, 20 hours a day. And he didn't have any, any, you know, he couldn't go to the tuck shop because his, his things are given his sandwich in the evening.
He was starving. And that's a six foot one boy. So I think you, I think, you know, on the one hand we have we have these fantastic secure children's homes that are, you know, really trying to do a good job. On the other hand, we have y o ys where I've got boys telling me they're starving. Now. I sorted that out. He's no longer starving, but I just need to think about that.
So yeah, around the world, the kinds that the best practice I've seen. I mean unbelievable in the Nordics. I mean Oslo, you know because they're just fund it so well. So they've got really good, you know, therapeutic support. There's hardly any children in prison. The prison officers are working side by side like mentors with, with the kids out doing things all day, you know, doing sport learning, you know, but there there is no funding gap there.
Probably one of the things I was most surprised at in terms of systems was LA. I thought I'd go to LA and think it was awful. Right. I was expecting you know, it's going to be terrible. I think relationships wise it had the edge on our wire wise, it was much better. Relationships were much stronger because their prison officers are probation and know their families. So they keep the relationships.
Relationships were important, but also they had every year in the prisons like a parole hearing. And they, the boys had a possibility of amending their sentences. So rather than just you've done something wrong, we're going to make your sentence longer, which is what happens now. It's, you know, every year, you know, you're going to get a chance to talk, you know, and they're going to look at look at it again.
I have a particular responsibility to those living away from home. Children with custodial sentences are living away from home. So one of the things and I have a few superpowers, one of those are to enter anywhere where children are any public place where children are. So I often turn up at YOIS and other places that children are in custodial in with custodial sentences and just enter and talk to them. I'll be bringing some of their voices to you today.
I go stand at Kent is a small boats come in and meet the children there. You know, wherever there are children who are away from their parents, it's my job to be there and talk to them and see them. I also have data powers and I've been using. You will see some of the things the work I've done in youth justice is around the use of those data powers. We were the it's my team that that continually look at the number of children in remand.
For example, look at the backgrounds of children in the youth justice system, particularly those with custodial sentences. I did a piece of work on the educational journeys of every single child who's been in prison over the last five years. You will be horrified to know that 20% of them went to six schools. We traced their. We literally traced back their educational journeys. So it's my job to use those data powers to really get under the skin of, you know, of children and young people's experiences.
I also get the voice of those young people, both victims and perpetrators, and try to bring that to you as parliamentarians, to government and to senior public servants, to try to get them to understand children's experience. Thank you. Can I just ask you to repeat that bit of data you just gave to us? It's on my website. So basically we I did a piece of work on the educational journeys and what schools , every, every child who's been in a yoi or had a custodial sentence, what, where they went to school when they were last at school and 20% of them went to six schools.
It's on my website. You can read it. I did a media round on it, I apologize, I didn't know that. Yeah. Thank you. And your and we've worked out exactly. We've talked to the school leaders where, you know, and for some of those school leaders, there was one particular school that had 42 children who'd been had custodial sentences and they didn't know. And so I was able, because I wanted to know, were they doing something right? For example, were they bringing children in particularly? But no.
So, you know, we've tried to make sure that we sit with those boys and talk to them. They feel you can see they're coming to terms with what they've done. They're thinking about their lives. They've been taken through that. So I think it's it's that smaller environment rather than the big YOY adult prison wing, which is what the y y just feels like an adult prison . I've been to, you know, the scrubs. I've been to Feltham.
There's the scrubs are calmer. Yeah, it's let's be honest. So so I think smaller, more, more actually more challenge for change to the young person. I mean, I've had kids, you know, in secure children's homes telling me, telling me what they've done. I killed my brother. Will I ever have a normal life, you know, and been able to have the space to have the conversation? No. But you could have a good life.
And so we, we, you know, and you, you can change and you can do things. It's , we need an environment that can allow for that process, you know, to happen. Whereas when I'm in our office, I'm just going to give you an example of this is what I'm dealing with with YOY. So I did a entry, you know, just turned up to get me, get me some young people to talk to. And one boy was brought to me, a boy on remand, six foot one black boy obviously got special educational needs.
Obviously, he was colouring in a piece of paper that said, I'm on the verge of something amazing and a big boy. And he was looking over his shoulders because he said, Because I'm tall, they try and make me fight and if I don't fight, then they fight. The other gangs get me. So I said to him, what do you want me to tell the Prime Minister about boys in your eyes? And that's what I'm I'm telling you.
What do you want me to tell the Prime Minister about boys in your eyes? And I was expecting. We want better education. Normally it's, you know. Well, we want more vocational things, more sport. He said, can you tell him I'm starving? And literally, because he'd been in fights and he was locked in his room for, you know, many, many hours a day, 20 hours a day. And he didn't have any, any, you know, he couldn't go to the tuck shop because his, his things are given his sandwich in the evening.
He was starving. And that's a six foot one boy. So I think you, I think, you know, on the one hand we have we have these fantastic secure children's homes that are, you know, really trying to do a good job. On the other hand, we have y o ys where I've got boys telling me they're starving. Now. I sorted that out. He's no longer starving, but I just need to think about that.
So yeah, around the world, the kinds that the best practice I've seen. I mean unbelievable in the Nordics. I mean Oslo, you know because they're just fund it so well. So they've got really good, you know, therapeutic support. There's hardly any children in prison. The prison officers are working side by side like mentors with, with the kids out doing things all day, you know, doing sport learning, you know, but there there is no funding gap there.
Probably one of the things I was most surprised at in terms of systems was LA. I thought I'd go to LA and think it was awful. Right. I was expecting you know, it's going to be terrible. I think relationships wise it had the edge on our wire wise, it was much better. Relationships were much stronger because their prison officers are probation and know their families. So they keep the relationships.
Relationships were important, but also they had every year in the prisons like a parole hearing. And they, the boys had a possibility of amending their sentences. So rather than just you've done something wrong, we're going to make your sentence longer, which is what happens now. It's, you know, every year, you know, you're going to get a chance to talk, you know, and they're going to look at look at it again.
16:03
Janet Daby
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Janet Daby
Hope that's what I want to say. Really helpful hope, really, really helpful information. I just want to draw you now to and I do hope that's thank you for sorting out that situation with that boy that was hungry. And I just hope that there's not many others like that in that situation. But I think as a committee, we've heard. Do you support the Bar Council's. recommendation to raise the age of criminal.
16:03
Tessa Munt
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Tessa Munt
Responsibility from 10 to 14? Yes, and I my office has done for for a number of years we've been speaking about this. We think the Bar Council's proposals are particularly sensible and thorough. And I think people need not worry, because that doesn't mean that children won't be detained if they need to be when they're younger than that, if there's a safeguarding need, if there's a if there's a support need. So it's not like, oh, nothing will happen.
It's just it's I think it's really important. I think the Bar Council makes a good case that we should be . With our.
It's just it's I think it's really important. I think the Bar Council makes a good case that we should be . With our.
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16:05
Tessa Munt
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Tessa Munt
Is the most important factor. Would you agree? Well, look, as the children's Commissioner, I think the I think for me, I'm deeply concerned about victims and I'm deeply concerned about children who offend, you know, and the need to divert them, to stop them offending in the first place and to deal effectively with it so that they can become adults. Now I am that doesn't mean I don't think the rule of law needs to apply and that justice needs to be done.
I'm not I'm not really going into that space. And I think I because I think there are people far better qualified than me to talk about legal about tariffs for children or what have you. But, but I do think I do think it's important that and this I say this as a headteacher, as a mother, as someone who sees children or child victims and child offenders, I do think it's important that there are consequences to our actions and that we say what's right and wrong and that there's a sense of justice.
I think that's important, but I also think trying to divert children from offending early before they offend is really important, and trying to stop them, stop them re-offending. It's incredibly important, you know, on and I hope I've expressed that in a deep way, which is about they come to understand that what they did was wrong and that they want to live a different kind of life. And, and part of that is, you know, has to be about the recognition of what they've done and, and making reparation for it.
That's life, isn't it? That's how we . Develop
I'm not I'm not really going into that space. And I think I because I think there are people far better qualified than me to talk about legal about tariffs for children or what have you. But, but I do think I do think it's important that and this I say this as a headteacher, as a mother, as someone who sees children or child victims and child offenders, I do think it's important that there are consequences to our actions and that we say what's right and wrong and that there's a sense of justice.
I think that's important, but I also think trying to divert children from offending early before they offend is really important, and trying to stop them, stop them re-offending. It's incredibly important, you know, on and I hope I've expressed that in a deep way, which is about they come to understand that what they did was wrong and that they want to live a different kind of life. And, and part of that is, you know, has to be about the recognition of what they've done and, and making reparation for it.
That's life, isn't it? That's how we . Develop
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Tessa Munt
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Tessa Munt
think we should be doing basically instead. So remand figures have gone up. If you look at the. When you go into the. Wire wise, I think it's about 50% of children in there will be on remand and those children will be mixing with killers, rapists, gang members, and 60% of them, more than 60% of them, won't get a custodial sentence after the time they've spent there. Seems to me absolutely mad.
But we're doing that, that we're putting them in there again. We're disrupting their education. Now often, I think I think the reason I've looked hard at why are they being put into the year when they're on remand and they haven't even been sentenced? Can you imagine the bitterness that would strike at your heart? And it's and it's disproportionately black children, disproportionately care leavers. Can you imagine the bitterness and pain now? Some of them.
And when even those who are sentenced, it's not going to be a custodial sentence. So what should we do? Well, first of all, they're often been put there in the middle of chaos for safety, right. And we should have better, safer places for these children. And I think that's the answer. So we need and there have been little bits of movement on this. You know, there have been some of the London boroughs have done something on this.
We need specialist fostering. We need places that children can go who you know, to keep them safe in this situation. But it's not in the middle of a prison full of children who are, you know, gang members deeply traumatised from killing, from from raping. That is not where you put someone who's not even going to . Get a
But we're doing that, that we're putting them in there again. We're disrupting their education. Now often, I think I think the reason I've looked hard at why are they being put into the year when they're on remand and they haven't even been sentenced? Can you imagine the bitterness that would strike at your heart? And it's and it's disproportionately black children, disproportionately care leavers. Can you imagine the bitterness and pain now? Some of them.
And when even those who are sentenced, it's not going to be a custodial sentence. So what should we do? Well, first of all, they're often been put there in the middle of chaos for safety, right. And we should have better, safer places for these children. And I think that's the answer. So we need and there have been little bits of movement on this. You know, there have been some of the London boroughs have done something on this.
We need specialist fostering. We need places that children can go who you know, to keep them safe in this situation. But it's not in the middle of a prison full of children who are, you know, gang members deeply traumatised from killing, from from raping. That is not where you put someone who's not even going to . Get a
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Tessa Munt
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Tessa Munt
ambitious enough, and is the funding sufficient? Look, I am always I always praise the government when it tries to do something good, and it is good to try to reduce this, but I am going to judge them on delivery. And in fact, if I had for the last since Covid, my biggest concern has been about the inability to deliver these things quickly and well. So I guess in a nutshell, they need to get on with it.
So great. The money's there. Great. The intentions there. I'm so pleased to see the recognition that, you know, we shouldn't be remanding kids to wise, but let's get on with I mean, the Youth Justice Board were doing fab stuff on, you know, making sure that kids weren't weren't remanded to custody. We need the local authorities with the wire judge to be working together and to make sure we've got specialist foster carers, places that are safe for children to be and their families, rather than remanding them to us.
So great. The money's there. Great. The intentions there. I'm so pleased to see the recognition that, you know, we shouldn't be remanding kids to wise, but let's get on with I mean, the Youth Justice Board were doing fab stuff on, you know, making sure that kids weren't weren't remanded to custody. We need the local authorities with the wire judge to be working together and to make sure we've got specialist foster carers, places that are safe for children to be and their families, rather than remanding them to us.
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Tessa Munt
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Tessa Munt
specifically. Just wanted to get your view and understanding. I've been absolutely clear that I don't think we should be using Pava spray. I think the use of Pava spray has only. When I've talked to governors and others, the justification is about violence and their own safety. But that's because we're running organisations, we're not running organisations properly. We had, you know, the right education provision, the right, the right things for youngsters to be doing if we weren't locking them up in their cells for 22, 20 hours a day, if we weren't allowing gangs stuff to be rife, if we were dealing with that, we wouldn't .
Need to
Need to
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Tessa Munt
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Tessa Munt
What feedback have you had from them? I think community sentences can be really effective, and I think the yacht teams, the yacht, the youth offending teams where youth offending teams are strong, they're really the community sentences are really, really good. I think they're particularly strong where there's some mentoring involved, where there are some, you know, really clear and, you know, robust actions because I think psychologically, you know, it's good for young people when they've when they've done something wrong, when they've offended to make reparation, put things right and to and it's a moment of reflection.
So I've seen good, good community sentences. I'm pleased about the rehabilitation orders going to first time offenders. I think we should do more of it. I think. I think there's yeah, yeah. So I . Think
So I've seen good, good community sentences. I'm pleased about the rehabilitation orders going to first time offenders. I think we should do more of it. I think. I think there's yeah, yeah. So I . Think
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Tessa Munt
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Tessa Munt
Both in terms of the offenders and also the victims, what, what changes would you make? Okay, so I think I think sometimes courts are too chaotic. The experience is really chaotic. So children's education and care arrangements are often missing. So you get a community sentence. But they haven't sort of thought about that side of it. I think for victims I think we need to I think, again, it's really effective communication.
So often victims say to me, if only someone had just written to me and told me, I think for victims, it's they need to know what's happening, be kept in the loop and understand what's happening. And then it's then, you know, and, and have a sense of, you know, yeah, this is, this will have an impact. This, this is good. So I think it's more about communication. And I think there is something about who, rather than just carrying a perfunctory, carrying it out in a perfunctory way, we need to be listening to both victims and the offenders talking through their experience with them, you know, making sure we're thinking about the evidence base again.
I go back to those Southport writers. You know, when I actually spoke to when I went and spoke to all of them, the ones who got the custodial sentences and otherwise what they had been accused of doing, they all thought that all their experience was different. They had a completely, you know, they had a unique take on it. And what worked for them was different for many of them. So so some of those Southport writers, you know, just going on that course and learning about people, the people who they thrown the bricks through the window, who could have been sitting behind that window was enough to horrify them.
I talked to boys who were like, I was horrified about the damage I could have done. And in that community centre they learnt about that. For some of them it was getting them mentor someone who would support them. So I think it's about it's about listening to the young people, understanding their experience and getting it right, but not disrupting their care or their education situation as well, because that you can mess up something that is going to be the thing that will really help get that child on the straight and narrow.
If you, you know, mess up their college course or mess up, you know, it's,
So often victims say to me, if only someone had just written to me and told me, I think for victims, it's they need to know what's happening, be kept in the loop and understand what's happening. And then it's then, you know, and, and have a sense of, you know, yeah, this is, this will have an impact. This, this is good. So I think it's more about communication. And I think there is something about who, rather than just carrying a perfunctory, carrying it out in a perfunctory way, we need to be listening to both victims and the offenders talking through their experience with them, you know, making sure we're thinking about the evidence base again.
I go back to those Southport writers. You know, when I actually spoke to when I went and spoke to all of them, the ones who got the custodial sentences and otherwise what they had been accused of doing, they all thought that all their experience was different. They had a completely, you know, they had a unique take on it. And what worked for them was different for many of them. So so some of those Southport writers, you know, just going on that course and learning about people, the people who they thrown the bricks through the window, who could have been sitting behind that window was enough to horrify them.
I talked to boys who were like, I was horrified about the damage I could have done. And in that community centre they learnt about that. For some of them it was getting them mentor someone who would support them. So I think it's about it's about listening to the young people, understanding their experience and getting it right, but not disrupting their care or their education situation as well, because that you can mess up something that is going to be the thing that will really help get that child on the straight and narrow.
If you, you know, mess up their college course or mess up, you know, it's,
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Tessa Munt
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Tessa Munt
chaotic. I think it's addressing their education that's important. Yeah. Look, there's there's there is a kind of movement to, to think about whether we should have youth courts. I've seen youth courts in the States, for example, with superb judges, like really well trained judges in the youth courts who are so impressive, like in LA, they were amazing the way they talked to young people, took their views and also the decision making, the thoughtfulness of it.
I think maybe it's more of a reflection of our entire system and the pressure on it at the moment. But I do think our you know, and I've spoken to the president of the family Division about this. I haven't talked to the criminal judges as much, but, I mean, I do think there's something about being able to communicate and speak to young people and understand what their lives might look . Like when
I think maybe it's more of a reflection of our entire system and the pressure on it at the moment. But I do think our you know, and I've spoken to the president of the family Division about this. I haven't talked to the criminal judges as much, but, I mean, I do think there's something about being able to communicate and speak to young people and understand what their lives might look . Like when
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Tessa Munt
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Tessa Munt
training issue for judges here? Look, we've got incredibly well trained judges. I just I just was struck. It's simply an observation. And I've had pushback from, you know, when I've spoken to to judges about this. But but I was very struck by how skilled the judges in LA were at working with youth and families. They were incredibly skilled, and it made the experience of those children in absolutely harrowing cases.
I think it made the children feel safe and protected and heard. And that's what we want, isn't it, for victims.
I think it made the children feel safe and protected and heard. And that's what we want, isn't it, for victims.
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Tessa Munt
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Tessa Munt
20% or the remanded children by 20%? No, this is the overall number. Okay. I mean, you we're obviously all aware that the number of children in custody has shrunk. And it's it is a success story. There are only about 450 or so children in the U.S. and that's a success story. So shrinking that by another 20%. Well, given that 50% of those probably are on remand, that leaves 30% still on remand in there.
They could do better. Come on. So I'd want to give them a bigger target than that. You know, let's, let's, you know, you know, you know, shrink of the remand population, 5 to 10% of the current population might need remanding into yours. Nobody else. We've got to do better. And it costs a fortune. So that money could be. So I'd rather see local authorities setting up secure, really good, secure accommodation .
And
They could do better. Come on. So I'd want to give them a bigger target than that. You know, let's, let's, you know, you know, you know, shrink of the remand population, 5 to 10% of the current population might need remanding into yours. Nobody else. We've got to do better. And it costs a fortune. So that money could be. So I'd rather see local authorities setting up secure, really good, secure accommodation .
And
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Warinder Juss
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Warinder Juss
They'd be much better. Thank you. I've just got one more question. I don't know if anybody else has any other. So finally, do you have any other. reflections on your broader work that you've done on the state of the secure youth estate? So as I say, there's a lot of information you've given today, which has been .
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Tessa Munt
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Tessa Munt
Really helpful, but any final reflections that you might have? Yes. So, look, I'm really pleased that Jake Richards, the justice minister, has asked my team and I a few months ago, and we've been working hard on it, to look at education in the eyes and to make some suggestions about the way forward. And that was with him knowing that I think we should close them. But nonetheless, there are there are many boys there.
There are. It's all boys now, isn't it? There are boys there and they need a decent education. And I think, you know, in terms of silver bullets and ways forward, we have to do better than the current education offer. I've taught extensively to governors, to prison officers, to those delivering education. But but I've been taking educators from AP and mainstream schools in to look. There is a huge will to do better. And the boys themselves talk to me about wanting to make sure they can pass their exams, their maths, their English, you know, have have tutoring to get that done because, you know, often the classroom doesn't work.
So having a one on one tutor for that, they talk about the desire for more vocational courses, which is really good for them. Even at Feltham, who I've spoken so harshly about Feltham, but actually I've seen some of the best vocational work going on there. Horticulture, painting, there's just not enough. And the governor knows that we need to be investing in, you know, they should be out there doing that every day. They want sport.
And I also think the Education Act tells us that every child is is entitled to spiritual, moral, social, cultural education. And those children in the eyes, no less, they need to think about who they are as human beings and how they're going to function afterwards. So we will shortly be publishing A Way forward, and we'd love to talk to this committee about it. And we're proud of the minister .
There are. It's all boys now, isn't it? There are boys there and they need a decent education. And I think, you know, in terms of silver bullets and ways forward, we have to do better than the current education offer. I've taught extensively to governors, to prison officers, to those delivering education. But but I've been taking educators from AP and mainstream schools in to look. There is a huge will to do better. And the boys themselves talk to me about wanting to make sure they can pass their exams, their maths, their English, you know, have have tutoring to get that done because, you know, often the classroom doesn't work.
So having a one on one tutor for that, they talk about the desire for more vocational courses, which is really good for them. Even at Feltham, who I've spoken so harshly about Feltham, but actually I've seen some of the best vocational work going on there. Horticulture, painting, there's just not enough. And the governor knows that we need to be investing in, you know, they should be out there doing that every day. They want sport.
And I also think the Education Act tells us that every child is is entitled to spiritual, moral, social, cultural education. And those children in the eyes, no less, they need to think about who they are as human beings and how they're going to function afterwards. So we will shortly be publishing A Way forward, and we'd love to talk to this committee about it. And we're proud of the minister .
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Janet Daby
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Janet Daby
ask us to have a look at that. Chair, just one last question. So thank you for that, because that sounds all that sounds more. optimistic in terms of why oh, why is really being. significant and making a difference in children's lives, as well as the. education to improve our eyes like Feltham. And it's really positive to hear that. Where else do you think the really .
Significant positive
Significant positive
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Tessa Munt
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Tessa Munt
So I briefly yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm just so education is my big one, right? But I also think I also think things like community work and working in get the boys actually working and engaging in the running of their eyes. I was sitting with a, a little boy the other day and Feltham and I said, what do you want to be? And he was like, I want to be a chef, like and like.
And I was like, I'll find you a chef. I'll find you a chef to talk to. We'll get you some work experience when you get out. But also get him helping running the food, you know, it's, it's so I think there's something about recognising that the why oh, why needs to be home. And if it's going to be home, we have to like, treat the young people in it, you know, both, you know, so that they can help run it, be part of it.
And also in the old days, although there was lots wrong 30 years ago in, in the system, the prison officers had the time to like, sit on the wing with the boys, play a game of draughts. Men to them have an almost fatherly relationship, which is often something that's missing. And I think that's important. And I think also just thinking of the human. And I wanted to read you one thing. So when I was in Feltham, the boys were writing letters to their future selves, and most of them said, you know, I want to do well in my future self.
I'll have made my mum proud. I'll have sorted myself out there, boys. But here this boy to my future self. Well done for changing your mindset, not for focusing on the easy illegal money anymore. I'm so proud you're standing here today with all of your building qualifications and your bricklaying business, and the fact that you came from a broken home, but managed to defy all the odds is something to be proud of.
That's what we need to be tapping into. I didn't see one letter to my future self from the boys at Feltham that wasn't hopeful, that wasn't grateful to its parents, that wasn't thinking about their education and trying to think about becoming better people. And I think that's what we need . The we need the eyes if they're going to . exist, to . Turn
And I was like, I'll find you a chef. I'll find you a chef to talk to. We'll get you some work experience when you get out. But also get him helping running the food, you know, it's, it's so I think there's something about recognising that the why oh, why needs to be home. And if it's going to be home, we have to like, treat the young people in it, you know, both, you know, so that they can help run it, be part of it.
And also in the old days, although there was lots wrong 30 years ago in, in the system, the prison officers had the time to like, sit on the wing with the boys, play a game of draughts. Men to them have an almost fatherly relationship, which is often something that's missing. And I think that's important. And I think also just thinking of the human. And I wanted to read you one thing. So when I was in Feltham, the boys were writing letters to their future selves, and most of them said, you know, I want to do well in my future self.
I'll have made my mum proud. I'll have sorted myself out there, boys. But here this boy to my future self. Well done for changing your mindset, not for focusing on the easy illegal money anymore. I'm so proud you're standing here today with all of your building qualifications and your bricklaying business, and the fact that you came from a broken home, but managed to defy all the odds is something to be proud of.
That's what we need to be tapping into. I didn't see one letter to my future self from the boys at Feltham that wasn't hopeful, that wasn't grateful to its parents, that wasn't thinking about their education and trying to think about becoming better people. And I think that's what we need . The we need the eyes if they're going to . exist, to . Turn
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Warinder Juss
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Tessa Munt
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Tessa Munt
it's very good, but there's not enough of it. Isn't it as patchy? But I mean, and they've got the space. So again, I think that thinking about what the education model should be and then doing that big kind of, you know, lots of these big firms build prisons. They can build some vocational spaces. You know, let's, let's,
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Tessa Munt
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Tessa Munt
education. in YOS and y Y's? Really? I mean, I'm going to go really practical. I think we should be. I think if you are sent to a YOY, you should have the best teachers in the country. It's a bit like the moment of greatest crisis is when we need the best teachers in there. And I think we they need to be the personal tutors who are doing the maths and the English, and that I've met children in there who've got serious special educational needs, who need basic literacy help.
I've met absolute geniuses who who should be doing their, you know, Open University physics course. So that personal tutoring, you're never going to, you know, so and I think we should draw on our brilliant education system. And I would all the, all the school trusts and schools I talk to are putting their hands up. They're saying, let us do that. So we need to somehow unleash that. And then it's vocational.
If you the stress relief of learning to paint, painting the house, doing the. Whatever the vocational is combined with the skill development so that when you go out, there's a job to do and you don't have to go back to the easy money. It's absolutely right. And I also think we need skilled, skilled, like philosophers and theologians and personal development people talking to those boys about if you've killed someone, you're going to think hard about about what it is to exist and who you are.
And we need to be answering that both with the whatever religious tradition they come from, but also, you know, people who can help them work through that. It's not just trauma informed and therapy. It's more than that.
I've met absolute geniuses who who should be doing their, you know, Open University physics course. So that personal tutoring, you're never going to, you know, so and I think we should draw on our brilliant education system. And I would all the, all the school trusts and schools I talk to are putting their hands up. They're saying, let us do that. So we need to somehow unleash that. And then it's vocational.
If you the stress relief of learning to paint, painting the house, doing the. Whatever the vocational is combined with the skill development so that when you go out, there's a job to do and you don't have to go back to the easy money. It's absolutely right. And I also think we need skilled, skilled, like philosophers and theologians and personal development people talking to those boys about if you've killed someone, you're going to think hard about about what it is to exist and who you are.
And we need to be answering that both with the whatever religious tradition they come from, but also, you know, people who can help them work through that. It's not just trauma informed and therapy. It's more than that.
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