Education Committee
Tuesday 15th September 2026
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10:03
Helen Hayes
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Helen Hayes
Order, order! Welcome to this oral evidence session of the Education Select Committee. This is a session this morning as part of our inquiry on the Schools White Paper, Every Child achieving and thriving. Can I, first of all, invite any members of the committee who'd like to make declarations of interest to do so? Serena?
10:04
10:04
10:04
10:04
Helen Hayes
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Helen Hayes
Thank you very much indeed for being with us this morning. I will begin our questioning. We've heard concerns from teaching unions about overburdened schools being asked to take on new commitments, such as responsibility for enrichment and belonging , alongside curriculum reforms, alongside the new Ofsted inspection framework. There's really a lot coming at our schools and teachers and school leaders at the moment. How should the government make the implementation of all of this change manageable for schools and what should be prioritised? And I'll start with you, if that's okay.
10:05
Jodie Gosling
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Jodie Gosling
Thank you. So I would say that I recognise that as a problem in the system. Just the schools . White paper has 102 separate policy commitments, and we've been working hard with the department since the publication of the white Paper to talk about the importance of sequencing and implementation and rigour, so that we don't overburden the school system. There is also the delicate issue of funding. So if we're going to pursue this important reform agenda, then that needs to come with funding and a strong implementation plan.
10:06
10:06
Caroline Johnson
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Caroline Johnson
Yes, I think the position would agree very much with with that from Leora. I would just add that local authorities have also got a huge amounts of capacity. When we look at the reforms that are falling on that area. So I think in terms of schools capacity, local authorities can support, when we think about enrichment, the culture and leisure services within local authority and the delivery of the half programme can help support those areas within the curriculum.
But I think it comes down to allowing flexibility. Local authorities and schools understand their children, they understand their communities and their local areas. So I think the fact that a lot of the requirements are non-statutory is important. And I think it's important to allow them to implement within their own timescales and deliver their priorities that they seem fit for their areas.
But I think it comes down to allowing flexibility. Local authorities and schools understand their children, they understand their communities and their local areas. So I think the fact that a lot of the requirements are non-statutory is important. And I think it's important to allow them to implement within their own timescales and deliver their priorities that they seem fit for their areas.
10:07
10:07
Jodie Gosling
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Jodie Gosling
I think it's a number of of of separate policy commitments. And as I say, the burden on on the school system. But I would say to the committee that there is also a risk in doing nothing. So the Sen reforms are probably the most important education reforms in this generation. And we do need to together, lean in to co-construct those reforms so that we create better outcomes for our children and young people with special educational needs.
10:07
Caroline Johnson
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Caroline Johnson
Yes, I think I would add it's how we look at supporting our small schools, our rural schools. I think funding needs to follow. When we think about capacity, it's far easier for schools that are larger and part of those larger multi-academy trusts. So I think the white paper needs to consider our small schools and having a strategy for that.
10:08
Caroline Voaden
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Caroline Voaden
Thank you. Good morning. Under the new under Andy Burnham, the new government has announced new technical pathways for education. So I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about how you think these proposals will be implemented in schools. How do you think this legislation will affect schools, and what do you think the impact is of introducing this policy at this point in the policy cycle? So start with you, Natalie.
10:08
Caroline Johnson
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Caroline Johnson
Yeah. So obviously it's welcome news would be our position from the LGA. We understand that we've got a huge issue with with young people and employment. I think the policy in as a standalone policy will struggle to achieve that, because I think we have got to look at the opportunities and the the ability for them to follow into the workforce once they have followed those pathways. I think the the economic stagnation and the rise of employers, National Insurance have had a huge impact on that.
So I believe that this needs to work in unison.
So I believe that this needs to work in unison.
10:24
Jodie Gosling
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Jodie Gosling
Financial accountability within the sector are actually greater in relation to governance. Trusts do have to publish on their websites and make available all of all of their governance structures, who their trustees are. That is actually a legal requirement in company law and in in charity law. So all of that is, is open to scrutiny and entirely transparent as well. In the same way that it is for maintained schools.
I think though, I wonder if there's something in in your at the heart of your question about the fact that some larger trusts can perhaps appear to be slightly more distant from from a parent body. And this means that local governance within within the trust sector is really important, and that stronger local governance for, for every academy, school or small group of schools becomes very important as a point of, of, of contact for parents and, and for the local community.
But I don't recognise that this is this is a problem in, in the academy trust sector. I think perhaps it is rather a misunderstanding of what academy governance is financial governance and in fact, actual governance.
I think though, I wonder if there's something in in your at the heart of your question about the fact that some larger trusts can perhaps appear to be slightly more distant from from a parent body. And this means that local governance within within the trust sector is really important, and that stronger local governance for, for every academy, school or small group of schools becomes very important as a point of, of, of contact for parents and, and for the local community.
But I don't recognise that this is this is a problem in, in the academy trust sector. I think perhaps it is rather a misunderstanding of what academy governance is financial governance and in fact, actual governance.
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10:25
Jess Asato
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Jess Asato
going to intervene there just to say that many of the contacts that I receive from parents as a local MP, we have a number of schools in my area which are part of Academy Trust. So to deal with the fact that once they've had their interaction with their local school headteacher and processes, there is nowhere else to go. There is no accountability for wider processes. And so I think there is definitely something out there. From the parent perspective and from a community perspective.
Similarly, if you've got a number of schools that are parts of different academy chains and many of them don't necessarily talk to each other, so, you know, they won't come to local school forums, they won't talk about the wider community. And you mentioned place, which is very, very important and how we want to see trust play a much bigger role in place at the moment. It's very difficult to see that happening in practice.
Similarly, if you've got a number of schools that are parts of different academy chains and many of them don't necessarily talk to each other, so, you know, they won't come to local school forums, they won't talk about the wider community. And you mentioned place, which is very, very important and how we want to see trust play a much bigger role in place at the moment. It's very difficult to see that happening in practice.
10:26
Jodie Gosling
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Jodie Gosling
Do you want me to respond to that? Yes. So as I said earlier, the work that we've done about trusts as civic institutions is really important here, but also their work as anchor institutions. So anchoring their schools more, more deeply in place. I mean, it's hard for me to, to, to comment on, you know, information.
10:26
10:26
Helen Hayes
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Helen Hayes
I mean, I would just follow up by saying to say that something is a misunderstanding. Rather puts the onus on the parents to somehow do better at understanding. I think the experience of probably every member on the committee, every member, probably across the House of Commons, is that the misunderstanding only comes when parents have got a real need to engage, and then their experience is poor. And that is quite a widespread perception. That is a different perception between academy trusts and the relationship that parents have and that local communities have with schools and the wider structures that govern schools and local authority schools, where I think the perception is that contact and the relationship is much more direct.
So, I mean, I don't know if you want to respond further to that, but I would really caution against a narrative of this is a misunderstanding on the part of parents, because parents don't have an abstract relationship to their school. That's about an academic understanding of the structures. They have a relationship with their schools, and they tell all of us in various different scenarios, in various different parts of the country that sometimes that doesn't work very well.
So, I mean, I don't know if you want to respond further to that, but I would really caution against a narrative of this is a misunderstanding on the part of parents, because parents don't have an abstract relationship to their school. That's about an academic understanding of the structures. They have a relationship with their schools, and they tell all of us in various different scenarios, in various different parts of the country that sometimes that doesn't work very well.
10:27
Jodie Gosling
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Jodie Gosling
So apologies. I was not saying it was a misunderstanding in parents. I was I was saying it was misunderstanding of the structures that govern academy governance and academy finances. Just to be clear that I would not say it was misunderstanding on parents behalf. I think the way that I would respond to that is to say that collectively we have, I think, quite a serious problem with the huge escalation, the huge rise of parental complaints, and that is across different types of schools and different types of structures.
So we are seeing many more parental complaints across the entire school estate and working to understand that better and helping parents to feel more engaged with schooling, all types of schools. The school that they choose to send their child to is a challenge for all of us. And I think a challenge that we in the trust sector want to lean into as, as I'm sure my colleague, Councillor Oliver, would say, in the maintained sector, we we want to lead to.
It is a shared problem. I don't think that this is is peculiarly a trust problem.
So we are seeing many more parental complaints across the entire school estate and working to understand that better and helping parents to feel more engaged with schooling, all types of schools. The school that they choose to send their child to is a challenge for all of us. And I think a challenge that we in the trust sector want to lean into as, as I'm sure my colleague, Councillor Oliver, would say, in the maintained sector, we we want to lead to.
It is a shared problem. I don't think that this is is peculiarly a trust problem.
10:29
Caroline Johnson
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Caroline Johnson
Yeah. Well, no, I do. I can understand just as remarks and also the remarks from Helen, I think I also receive a lot of emails as my lead member role from parents who do feel more detached once they reach a school, which is a multi-academy trust. I also think that there is probably something in the transition from primary to secondary as well, and how that sort of changes as a feel for parents.
I think naturally you feel more detached with that transition anyway. So I do think that there is work for trusts, and I'm not saying all trusts, obviously it will differ depending on on, on which trust we are talking about, but there probably is some work to do. And I do agree with you, there probably is some work to do within the maintained landscape as well. I'm not saying that it works perfectly over there, but I think if parents are making sounds that they do feel distressed, then there is definitely work to do in that area.
I think going back to the transparency, I think inspection could assist with that. I think at the. Moment
I think naturally you feel more detached with that transition anyway. So I do think that there is work for trusts, and I'm not saying all trusts, obviously it will differ depending on on, on which trust we are talking about, but there probably is some work to do. And I do agree with you, there probably is some work to do within the maintained landscape as well. I'm not saying that it works perfectly over there, but I think if parents are making sounds that they do feel distressed, then there is definitely work to do in that area.
I think going back to the transparency, I think inspection could assist with that. I think at the. Moment
10:44
Jodie Gosling
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Jodie Gosling
with the education at the moment, some of which you know, are very significant. The problem that we have with school attendance, the problem that we have around the disadvantage gap, the problem with, I think, all of the problems that face us within schooling young people, not in education, employment or training, the problem of falling roles, these require a partnership mindset. We are not going to solve these problems on our own. We really do need to to lean in the as I mentioned, the Children's Wellbeing and Schools Act does give new powers to the adjudicator, particularly in relation to pupil admission numbers.
So I think that there . There is now a way that that local authorities can make representation to to the adjudicator, but I would always see that as a as the end point and not as what would happen. First, I would genuinely hope that as a school community that we could together work to solving the problems that face us.
So I think that there . There is now a way that that local authorities can make representation to to the adjudicator, but I would always see that as a as the end point and not as what would happen. First, I would genuinely hope that as a school community that we could together work to solving the problems that face us.
10:45
10:45
Jodie Gosling
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Jodie Gosling
Thank you. This question for Laura around your written submission that was quite critical of the government's proposals for the regional improvements and standards teams, and I'd really like to explore what changes you think are needed to make rise work effectively for schools, especially those that need support. So thank you for for that question. I think it is fair to say that in the early days of rise, there were some quite significant operational issues with with the Rise programme.
I think that the new director general has done a lot to smooth those operational issues and difficulties, and that the Rise programme is now functioning in a much more optimal way. We are working very closely with with the department to iron out any residual issues, but from the point of the of the time that we submitted the written evidence to now, I would say that there that there has been some quite some quite significant changes to those operational issues that we were experiencing in the early days of rise.
And I do believe that the Department, under the leadership of the new director general, has got a grip on some of those issues. Could you outline or be more explicit about what you think those key changes were? Yes. So I think that the in the early the early days, when rise was first launched, the matching process between the supporting organisation and and the school needed a little bit more structure and rigour to it.
So sometimes the matching process didn't work as, as, as well as it as, as it might just as an example, I think that the matching process is now much stronger, much more rigorous, and there's much more thought behind getting the right supporting organisation for the school than perhaps there was in those early days. And that generated, I think, in the early days, quite a lot of friction and concern and anxiety. But there is much less of that now, I think, in the system.
Okay. Thank you.
I think that the new director general has done a lot to smooth those operational issues and difficulties, and that the Rise programme is now functioning in a much more optimal way. We are working very closely with with the department to iron out any residual issues, but from the point of the of the time that we submitted the written evidence to now, I would say that there that there has been some quite some quite significant changes to those operational issues that we were experiencing in the early days of rise.
And I do believe that the Department, under the leadership of the new director general, has got a grip on some of those issues. Could you outline or be more explicit about what you think those key changes were? Yes. So I think that the in the early the early days, when rise was first launched, the matching process between the supporting organisation and and the school needed a little bit more structure and rigour to it.
So sometimes the matching process didn't work as, as, as well as it as, as it might just as an example, I think that the matching process is now much stronger, much more rigorous, and there's much more thought behind getting the right supporting organisation for the school than perhaps there was in those early days. And that generated, I think, in the early days, quite a lot of friction and concern and anxiety. But there is much less of that now, I think, in the system.
Okay. Thank you.
10:47
10:47
Caroline Voaden
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Caroline Voaden
Thank you. The previous government published the enrichment framework in June of this year and committed to additional funding, including the Every Child Can program. So the evidence that we've received here has emphasised the need for ring fenced funding to ensure that provision is inclusive, and discussions around the structure of the school day, the length of the school day. So can I ask you what further measures you think are needed to meet the government's ambitions on enrichment, so that every child can benefit from enrichment, regardless of disadvantage or rurality, or what type of school they're in? And I'll start with Natalie.
10:48
Caroline Johnson
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Caroline Johnson
Okay. Thank you. So again, I think predominantly it comes down to funding and the ability of schools to be able to deliver the enrichment within. However, I do feel that as local authorities, we can we can really support when it comes to enrichment. We've got our, our culture portfolio in terms of our libraries and also our leisure facilities, which will be there throughout the holidays as well as throughout the school week.
So it's something that we can really support with. I think the the LGA were incredibly relieved to hear about the extension of the half programme. I think we do need to consider our vulnerable children and our children living in our more deprived areas and what those holidays actually look like for them, and I think the half programme has been an overwhelming success in being able to give all children the experiences they need to, to widen their knowledge and their experiences.
We all know how valuable. Those sort of activities are for children in expanding their capacity. And, and sort of, you know, when we think about forest schools and being outside and how good that is for, for not only their, their learning, but also their mental health. So I would suggest that the half programme is fantastic. Personally , talking from experience in Lincolnshire, we are probably barely touching the sides in the in the sessions that we should be able to deliver.
So, you know, always take an opportunity. More funding for the half programme would be fantastic so that we can support more of our vulnerable children and our children living in more deprived areas to really impact on their curriculum and their development. And also, we know how well it works in terms of attendance and getting them back to school, especially that long summer break. So I do feel that, again, coming down to partnership working schools will need funding to be able to deliver the enrichment added curriculum in a meaningful way, but we can also very much support as local authorities with the the infrastructure that we have already got in place.
So it's something that we can really support with. I think the the LGA were incredibly relieved to hear about the extension of the half programme. I think we do need to consider our vulnerable children and our children living in our more deprived areas and what those holidays actually look like for them, and I think the half programme has been an overwhelming success in being able to give all children the experiences they need to, to widen their knowledge and their experiences.
We all know how valuable. Those sort of activities are for children in expanding their capacity. And, and sort of, you know, when we think about forest schools and being outside and how good that is for, for not only their, their learning, but also their mental health. So I would suggest that the half programme is fantastic. Personally , talking from experience in Lincolnshire, we are probably barely touching the sides in the in the sessions that we should be able to deliver.
So, you know, always take an opportunity. More funding for the half programme would be fantastic so that we can support more of our vulnerable children and our children living in more deprived areas to really impact on their curriculum and their development. And also, we know how well it works in terms of attendance and getting them back to school, especially that long summer break. So I do feel that, again, coming down to partnership working schools will need funding to be able to deliver the enrichment added curriculum in a meaningful way, but we can also very much support as local authorities with the the infrastructure that we have already got in place.
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Jodie Gosling
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Jodie Gosling
by saying I think enrichment is fundamentally important to the wider purposes of education. I think education is about building human capacity, and enrichment is a key part of that. Enrichment can help children and young people find their sense of joy in school, feel a much greater sense of belonging to their school. Finding what they're good at is brilliant, but I would I would agree that the constraints in relation to the school environment are significant at the moment, and in particular the funding constraints.
So we started off our conversation with the burden of reform on our school system. And I think it would be a terrible thing indeed, if we lost the wonderful capacity for enrichment because of the burden of reform and because there is insufficient funding with within our schools to to deliver that. I think there is a collective will to make this work. I don't think anybody who works in education is not 100% committed to those wider purposes of education and making schools joyful places where all children feel like they belong.
So we started off our conversation with the burden of reform on our school system. And I think it would be a terrible thing indeed, if we lost the wonderful capacity for enrichment because of the burden of reform and because there is insufficient funding with within our schools to to deliver that. I think there is a collective will to make this work. I don't think anybody who works in education is not 100% committed to those wider purposes of education and making schools joyful places where all children feel like they belong.
10:51
Caroline Voaden
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Caroline Voaden
Thank you. And if I could just also talk about the length of the school day in 2021, the centre for Social Justice advocated for a longer school day and an evaluation of 1500 schools with extended school days showed that 69% said it had at least some influence in raising attainment, and 71% reported it helped them engage disadvantaged families. So do either of you have a view on whether you think there should be a conversation around the length of the school day, and whether that would help, because we know that the curriculum is absolutely packed already.
And if we're going to start trying to add back in all the things that we used to enjoy at school, you know, art and music and drama and PE, you know, the things that seem to have fallen out of the curriculum. Do you have a view on whether you think that would be one way of addressing it? Obviously, there would be workforce issues.
And if we're going to start trying to add back in all the things that we used to enjoy at school, you know, art and music and drama and PE, you know, the things that seem to have fallen out of the curriculum. Do you have a view on whether you think that would be one way of addressing it? Obviously, there would be workforce issues.
10:52
Jodie Gosling
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Jodie Gosling
Yes, there would be workforce issues. So I think I would say in response to this, that context matters hugely here and place matters. So there's a trust that is a member in Bedfordshire, for example, where there are many parents who work beyond school hours. So they have extended their school day very deliberately to be able to support parents in that in that community, including the children, actually do their homework through that extended school day so that when they go home to their parents, that is quality, that is quality time, but that is responding to a particular parental need.
I, I'm not sure that we mandate this from the centre. I think we look at what the way that we serve our communities and that we plan our school day and our school provision to be optimally benefit to children and young people and the communities we serve.
I, I'm not sure that we mandate this from the centre. I think we look at what the way that we serve our communities and that we plan our school day and our school provision to be optimally benefit to children and young people and the communities we serve.
10:53
Caroline Johnson
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Caroline Johnson
I would just say, I think it is a huge conversation and Laura is absolutely right. There is there is so much more to think about, isn't there? When we think about extending, extending the school day in terms of transport, in terms of the the wraparound care industry as well, and how that would impact there. I think the LGA does not have an official position at this point on extending the school day. So I think I would probably leave it there.
Thank you.
Thank you.
10:54
Helen Hayes
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Helen Hayes
Thank you. Just quickly, to follow up, do you think we've had a lot of evidence, including in previous evidence sessions , about the the how and the where about enrichment? And I wonder whether it's your view that the government needs to be clearer about what it's asking. Expectation is in terms of what should happen within schools in terms of enrichment, what should happen within schools, within the curtilage of the school day, what should happen within schools, but ancillary to the school day, breakfast clubs after school, what should happen within the wider community to give children that option of access to enrichment everywhere in the country? And just very quickly, do you think the White Paper is clear enough about what the expectations are on the different bits of the system to deliver the important aspiration of enrichment for every child?
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Jodie Gosling
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Jodie Gosling
do, so I don't think Whitehall should determine be determining those sorts of things. I think that is about place and about making partners in place work to to deliver against a broad enrichment framework. So I think that that is absolutely the right approach. I don't think we need to see more compulsion or more prescription from central government. I think what would be nice from central government is more funding to make this work.
10:55
Caroline Johnson
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Caroline Johnson
I would agree with that. And I also think that other policies are coming through and strategies that could well help to support enrichment. So I think when we think about the youth strategy and how that looks, we very much incorporate the community and the voluntary sectors in being able to help deliver enrichment. And also that's really good for helping our disadvantaged children to access. With that, there are some questions in terms of the youth hubs, again, it could work well for sort of London boroughs or or city areas where things are far more accessible.
When we think again about Rurality, how that looks when you think about transport. So again, I think there are several areas that can support in the delivery of enrichment. But again, it does come down to sufficiency and funding in order to be able to provide that, especially for, like I say, the more rural, the smaller schools that don't necessarily have the ability.
When we think again about Rurality, how that looks when you think about transport. So again, I think there are several areas that can support in the delivery of enrichment. But again, it does come down to sufficiency and funding in order to be able to provide that, especially for, like I say, the more rural, the smaller schools that don't necessarily have the ability.
10:56
Jodie Gosling
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Jodie Gosling
May I make one further point? And that is about special schools and enrichment. So I think we really do need to understand the particular constraints on special schools in relation to the expectations on enrichment. Of course, children with special educational needs and special schools have the same entitlement to a brilliant enrichment programme as other types of schools, but the constraints there are more difficult to manage, particularly with with school transport. So we do need to lean into looking at the logistics of getting this right across our different types of schools.
Rurality is a particular issue, but I think special schools are create another set of issues for us to acknowledge.
Rurality is a particular issue, but I think special schools are create another set of issues for us to acknowledge.
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10:57
Peter Swallow
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Peter Swallow
Thank you. And on on that topic of expanding the curriculum, of having a broad curriculum, the government's proposed changes to school accountability measures such as progress eight, which would cover English, maths, two sciences, two breadth subjects and two choices. Do you support these changes or. We start with you.
10:58
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10:58
Jodie Gosling
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Jodie Gosling
I wouldn't like to see it scrapped altogether. I think it's a it's a really very important measure. There are a number of technical considerations to progress because essentially, if you take one, if you put one thing in, you have to take another thing out and. And that's quite a fine balance. I think it's really important that we have a breadth bucket, but I think it's equally important that we maintain high academic standards by having English, maths and science there.
So I think the balance of progress. Eight right now and the way that it's it's being constructed is, is maximally efficient. But I think some of the things that were considered through the curriculum assessment review are really important considerations. So I look forward to understanding what this government intends to do with progress.
So I think the balance of progress. Eight right now and the way that it's it's being constructed is, is maximally efficient. But I think some of the things that were considered through the curriculum assessment review are really important considerations. So I look forward to understanding what this government intends to do with progress.
10:59
10:59
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Open to persuasion. Well, so with respect, I can't comment on what what I don't I don't know yet what the what the changes might or might not be. So it's, it's hard for me to comment, but I think I would say that progress eight in it's no measure is perfect. No measure is ever perfect. But progress eight has some very. important elements of. accountability to it, and I think that there are complex arguments about taking things out.
And then what goes back in and that can that can shift and shape the, the pattern of. education differently. So I,
And then what goes back in and that can that can shift and shape the, the pattern of. education differently. So I,
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11:01
Peter Swallow
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Peter Swallow
for inclusion. So it's how that will all pan out, I would suggest. Okay. Thank you. And we've also mentioned funding quite a few times today. The the White Paper committed to a new model for targeting disadvantaged through the national funding formula. We've heard concerns about the current formula being too complex. So what would a sort of what could a new model look like? Should it, for example, look at replacing free school meal.
eligibility with family income? And should a wider definition of. disadvantage be used? Should there be a, you know, more bold and wider .
eligibility with family income? And should a wider definition of. disadvantage be used? Should there be a, you know, more bold and wider .
11:01
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Reforms proposed? Councillor Oliver, perhaps start with you. Yeah. So I would suggest that the the LGA has has always been opposed to direct national funding. I think it's important that the. flexibility is maintained. At the end of the day, local authorities and schools understand their children and their communities and how that works. So I think to maintain.
11:02
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
would be preferable. Does that mean in practice? So I would think schools being able to ensure that the funding was utilised and diverted into the right space. I think it's important that the funding is utilised to. create an environment that can meet need for all of their children that they have on role, instead of the the funding probably being. directed in a person. So in line with the send reforms, I think it's important that funding can be .
Utilised
Utilised
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11:03
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Okay. Thank you. And Laura, did you have a view on this? I don't have much to add at the level of of principle. I mean, again, this is quite a. technical debate. We have published quite extensively on funding futures. And I make the same offer that I made to Jess. We'd be happy to put forward a written.
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11:04
Sureena Brackenridge
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Sureena Brackenridge
My question. I'm so, so, so sorry. Thank you. The schools white paper makes several announcements around attendance, behaviour and belonging. How far is tackling poor attendance and poor behaviour a. responsibility for. schools and how far does it need to be a joined up. integrated approach with local government and other .
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
And how that can support, with attendance in. continuing that sort of ability to stay within routines so that they are school ready when they need to go back. And then it also helps to. support parents with that as well. So the other implicating factor will of course be the send reforms, making our schools more.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
So I would suggest that that would be the best way to for us to realize that schools are implementing the reforms accordingly. And I think, again, as I mentioned earlier, local authority having those backstop. powers so that when we deem that schools aren't being serious and aren't implementing the reforms to the level that we would expect, that . We
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
account for that. Okay. Laura. I think the issue that we face with school attendance is a complex social issue. I don't think it is just an issue for the for the school system, but I would like to really. commend successive. governments on the work that has been done on attendance. So I think daily.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
feeding that data back into the system, that is something to be really proud of. We have done that well in in England, and I think that, you know, other countries and jurisdictions look at look at that and and wish they had something similar that creates a very, very good. platform for us to be. granular and rigorous. about attendance, daily attendance data and daily.
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Speaker 2
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thing that we would seek to do. Oliver. Yes, I would very much agree with that. I think it's important that we look at the why. Why are these children not making it into school? And if we can deal with that, then. potentially there are two strands to this. You may have the parents that will sort of take children out to take them on holiday, because it's cheaper to do so.
That's one, that's one scenario. But then you could have a scenario where there is a really difficult circumstance going on at home. So to just put a fine there could actually accentuate those circumstances. So I think it comes down to those unique. circumstances . And.
That's one, that's one scenario. But then you could have a scenario where there is a really difficult circumstance going on at home. So to just put a fine there could actually accentuate those circumstances. So I think it comes down to those unique. circumstances . And.
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Rebecca Paul
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Rebecca Paul
understanding why that child isn't in school. Thank you. Can I thank you both very much for being with us this morning and for answering our questions. I think for both of you indicated that you would write to the committee with some follow up information. If there's anything else that you want to mention that we didn't have time to get to today, please do feel free to include it as well. But thank you very much.
And . If we
And . If we
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
introduce. yourselves to the committee, starting with Geoff Barton? Yes. Good morning everyone. Geoff Barton, grizzled old English teacher, headteacher of a comprehensive school for 15 years and then a trade union baron, as the Daily Mail called me when I looked after the Association of School and College Leaders. I've stepped down from that. So it's important just to say, whereas in the past I would be.
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Speaker 4
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our school system and how it can be achieved? So belonging, we feel, I should say the network is a loose assembly of people, so we're not I'm not speaking totally on their behalf . Those co-chairs of canvass opinion. But but belonging is at the heart of what education is. There's a lot of research evidence to show that if young people feel that they belong in school, they're more likely to feel happier, they're more likely to achieve, they're more likely to be having their their needs met.
And I really would welcome, by the way, the white papers emphasis on engagement and belonging, because we feel that the two go together. Belonging needs to be at the heart of education. So I don't think it should be an additional add on. I looked at some of the evidence from yesterday. I can see the the union leaders worries about extra workload on on, on the teaching staff, but actually it belonging is at the heart of.
education we feel actually reduces workload. It makes schools safer places to be for, for young people and staff. And that's what it needs to be at the core. So if it is at the core, then it's not the additional .
And I really would welcome, by the way, the white papers emphasis on engagement and belonging, because we feel that the two go together. Belonging needs to be at the heart of education. So I don't think it should be an additional add on. I looked at some of the evidence from yesterday. I can see the the union leaders worries about extra workload on on, on the teaching staff, but actually it belonging is at the heart of.
education we feel actually reduces workload. It makes schools safer places to be for, for young people and staff. And that's what it needs to be at the core. So if it is at the core, then it's not the additional .
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Rebecca Paul
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Rebecca Paul
So it needs to be at all of what the daily business of the school does. And just to drill down a tiny bit more, you've described what school should feel like when there's a good sense of belonging and how important it is, and that it should be a whole school ethos. How do you how do you break it down? Is it about trusted relationships within school? Is it about a clear articulation of the.
ethos of the place? Is it about what goes on in terms of like what, what, what, what I'm really interested in? Because, because we know that some schools are good at it and some schools are not. The question is, how do you get more schools to be good at it? In order to answer that . Question, you've
ethos of the place? Is it about what goes on in terms of like what, what, what, what I'm really interested in? Because, because we know that some schools are good at it and some schools are not. The question is, how do you get more schools to be good at it? In order to answer that . Question, you've
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
got to really drill down into question of what it is and how you deliver it. I mean, the key is relationships. As you mentioned, we did some work. Some of the universities on on school exclusions. And we found that, you know, England excludes and suspend far greater numbers than proportionately than the other UK jurisdictions. And the big. difference was that in Scotland particularly, they talk about relationships or in all of their paperwork, whereas in in this country we tend to talk about behaviour and looking at.
behaviour and problems of behaviour is where you start. It's very difficult to get at the root of why those people are behaving in the way they are, and why they don't feel that their belonging. So relationships is key. It's relationships between adults and young people, but also the relationships that can be fostered between young people and allowing the schools to be position where, as I say, need is both met and.
behaviour and problems of behaviour is where you start. It's very difficult to get at the root of why those people are behaving in the way they are, and why they don't feel that their belonging. So relationships is key. It's relationships between adults and young people, but also the relationships that can be fostered between young people and allowing the schools to be position where, as I say, need is both met and.
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
You know, that they're silent corridors, etc.. And what when you listen to Ian and what my experience is, is that the kind of place you would want your own children to go to is a school where relationships matter, where talking about belonging isn't seen as something soppy. It's the opposite. It's actually having. expectations that you need to be in school. It's really important you're in school. We will teach you and reteach you.
If you're not understanding something, that's where the teachers skill is so.
If you're not understanding something, that's where the teachers skill is so.
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Rather than the idea that you're the passive recipient. And I've most recently been chairing a commission on Oracy. And when you say to experts about Oracy, Robin Alexander is the guru on this, what's the one thing that oracy the ability to speak, to listen and to communicate? What does that bring for children and young people? It brings agency. And for me, that whole notion of young people having a sense of. agency is good for young people.
It's good for teachers who are going to see young people motivated by the subject, and it's good for society, particularly if those young people are going to get the vote at the age of 16. All the more reason we need them to learn how to disagree agreeably. So that probably doesn't answer the question about what does an engagement framework or whatever it looks like. But I do think there are schools doing extraordinary work which not stop being sentimental and is giving that sense of agency to young people.
It's good for teachers who are going to see young people motivated by the subject, and it's good for society, particularly if those young people are going to get the vote at the age of 16. All the more reason we need them to learn how to disagree agreeably. So that probably doesn't answer the question about what does an engagement framework or whatever it looks like. But I do think there are schools doing extraordinary work which not stop being sentimental and is giving that sense of agency to young people.
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Not I in terms of examination results or performing and conforming to, to school rules, which from the outside, from my perspective, can sometimes look quite draconian. So the idea that you can't speak in a corridor to me would be not the sort of school that I would have wanted to work in, but it's also not where I feel that children learn. So children learn in the classroom. They also learn in the corridor, they learn outside of school. And part of that is the ability to engage with each other in.
constructive and collaborative ways that are not. necessarily resort to to. hostility at the first possible occasion. So engagement has to be worked at. And, and I think it's both the school's.
constructive and collaborative ways that are not. necessarily resort to to. hostility at the first possible occasion. So engagement has to be worked at. And, and I think it's both the school's.
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Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
do well in terms of attainment. Thank you. I agree with. everything colleagues have have said. I think what it doesn't look like is another form of performance table, not not something that would be used as a stick to beat schools up with, I think I think we've got to be really cautious of that. I think the one thing that's really key here is how pupil Voice feeds into that process.
I think if we if we're genuinely talking about something that. makes children and young people feel a sense of. ownership and membership, if you like, I think that's a good word. Membership feeling like a member of, of, of their school. Their voice has to be instrumental in forming that. And I, I'm not sure that has quite .
I think if we if we're genuinely talking about something that. makes children and young people feel a sense of. ownership and membership, if you like, I think that's a good word. Membership feeling like a member of, of, of their school. Their voice has to be instrumental in forming that. And I, I'm not sure that has quite .
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Sureena Brackenridge
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Sureena Brackenridge
Thank you very much. We'll go to Sabrina now. Thank you. There still remains much concern regarding school attendance. Yes, things have improved since the Covid low point, but we still have. 1 in 5 young people who are. persistently absent. So it's a very. stubborn dial to shift. The government has announced specific attendance targets for each school based on their context.
What further measures are needed to . Ensure
What further measures are needed to . Ensure
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Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
I'm walking into controversy inevitably with it, is that if your child was at school. pre-COVID and then was at home with you and could have a pretty comfortable time, and it was quite nice for you and quite nice for the child. Something has shifted for some parents, not all parents about your child saying on a Friday, I don't feel very well or I'm going to have five supply teachers today. I don't want to go to school.
And I think without rebuilding a sense of the relationship between schools and.
And I think without rebuilding a sense of the relationship between schools and.
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Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
Attendance is going to be problematic. And I think, again, Laura hinted at it, we are seeing the people who I used to represent school and college leaders, proud members of Asacol, for example, who are being subjected to a barrage of complaints. And I think rebuilding a sense of if you've got a complaint about the school, that's quite legitimate, just like I have a complaint about Marks and Spencers and something. But there are ways in which we do all of that.
And I think rebuilding the sense of how is the school working for you, giving you a voice as the parent, giving you a sense of agency as the young person, and getting back to that civilised. responsibility for you as a parent to have your child in school? I think we just need to really, really keep articulating that and celebrating those schools who appear to be often in places of adversity. Absolutely. Getting that right.
How are they doing that? And can the behaviour hubs, for example, help to illuminate what precisely they're doing? I'm not
And I think rebuilding the sense of how is the school working for you, giving you a voice as the parent, giving you a sense of agency as the young person, and getting back to that civilised. responsibility for you as a parent to have your child in school? I think we just need to really, really keep articulating that and celebrating those schools who appear to be often in places of adversity. Absolutely. Getting that right.
How are they doing that? And can the behaviour hubs, for example, help to illuminate what precisely they're doing? I'm not
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
issue. Okay. Thank you Ian. Well, I agree with Geoff, but also would add that the. relationship side of, of, of keeping children within school and meaning why they want to go to school has to be at the forefront of all we're thinking about because someone said in the last session that we have to look at the reasons why young, significant numbers of young.
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Some find life a bit more exciting outside of school. And that leads to all sorts of dangers to. safeguarding and so on. So how do we make school more, you know, a belonging place for them to turn up? That's that's really what we need to focus on. And, and it really worries me, the narrative behind blaming. parents as to why children don't go. Some parents think their child does go to school.
They don't actually reach school or they leave school early. Other just feel powerless in the sense of, you know, of what's going on both in their lives but also in their child's child's life. So I think just finding parents is not the answer. I think finding ways to make schools more inviting places for those young, young people. And that may . Be
They don't actually reach school or they leave school early. Other just feel powerless in the sense of, you know, of what's going on both in their lives but also in their child's child's life. So I think just finding parents is not the answer. I think finding ways to make schools more inviting places for those young, young people. And that may . Be
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Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
Where attendance and behaviour behaviour have become joined at the hip. And I think I think there's an issue there because actually some schools that have done amazing work on. attendance are not recognised for that because actually the cohort of children that they've come come with additional behaviour needs. So I think there is there is an indicator there that. sometimes just a blunt tool can, can create a bit of a problem.
I think the, the wider. narrative around. attendance nationally has been problematic at times. I think, you know, you turn on the news and you, you, you're getting told that all of the attendance issues are to do with parents taking their children to some sunny country abroad that, you know, it's, it's that's not how it is. And I think parents and children have been alienated from,
I think the, the wider. narrative around. attendance nationally has been problematic at times. I think, you know, you turn on the news and you, you, you're getting told that all of the attendance issues are to do with parents taking their children to some sunny country abroad that, you know, it's, it's that's not how it is. And I think parents and children have been alienated from,
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Caroline Voaden
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Caroline Voaden
Whilst also stating that schools should have inclusive policies that get to the root causes of poor, the root of the cause of poor behaviour. So if I could ask you what do you what support or guidance or resources do you think are needed to try and resolve the behaviour issues that we're seeing in . Schools at the
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Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
And if I could start with Mr. Barton? Yeah, I know from my days as a head teacher that there were certain points in the year when you asked members of staff, how are things? Behaviour would always be the issue. So there's a sense in which if you were a teacher and you've got a class of 28 young people, that's a tough gig and always has been a tough gig, and it becomes harder at certain points in the year, right? Something has happened with young people, though, partly the kind of role models they might be seeing.
publicly aren't perhaps where they were in the past. The tendency of people to be cross about everything all the time is something which we all feel. And I think probably what we're seeing in the best schools is not that militaristic regime I talked about, which basically tells you to be passive and listen to what I say because I matter more than you, but actually is modelling what good behavior looks like. And we felt back in King Edward's that one of the most important things we could do as a staff wasn't just what we did in the classroom, it's what we did around the school, modelling, having conversations with young people, eating together, all of those kind of things.
And the more we could not just talk about the standards agenda, but talk about the way behaviour feeds into the standards agenda and what does good behaviour look like in schools that don't often get much attention? That, it seems to me, would be a really important way of starting to re-empower those schools who feel they're doing really important work but don't get noticed for it. And I think part of that is around the curriculum. And I think if what we're going to get is a national.
publicly aren't perhaps where they were in the past. The tendency of people to be cross about everything all the time is something which we all feel. And I think probably what we're seeing in the best schools is not that militaristic regime I talked about, which basically tells you to be passive and listen to what I say because I matter more than you, but actually is modelling what good behavior looks like. And we felt back in King Edward's that one of the most important things we could do as a staff wasn't just what we did in the classroom, it's what we did around the school, modelling, having conversations with young people, eating together, all of those kind of things.
And the more we could not just talk about the standards agenda, but talk about the way behaviour feeds into the standards agenda and what does good behaviour look like in schools that don't often get much attention? That, it seems to me, would be a really important way of starting to re-empower those schools who feel they're doing really important work but don't get noticed for it. And I think part of that is around the curriculum. And I think if what we're going to get is a national.
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Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
does some revisions and does the stuff I'm interested in oracy so that young people feel more engaged, whether it's simultaneous equations or the. tempest that they're studying. But they feel that actually this matters to them. They're enjoying it and they're being given a voice and sense of agency. All of that is likely to lead to them behaving better in school and . Then
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Thank you, Mr. Thompson. So, I mean, one of the issues is, is what we describe as behaviour. So sometimes what as an ex teacher, Paul behaved for me would often be that they weren't listened to my wonderful anecdote. But actually what I was failing to see that I wasn't engaging them. And, and it's about staff thinking about how do they engage all the young people but also staff them being given the resources to do that.
So there's lots of research evidence to say that. programmes that focus on attachment.
So there's lots of research evidence to say that. programmes that focus on attachment.
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
You don't need to worry about it. It'll go again in three minutes time as well. And we don't need to worry about that. Keep talking. So your question was that, you know, should all children behave the same in every classroom? Well they won't they're not always able to for whatever reason. But as teachers, they need to be empowered to feel that it's okay. They can make that work, as long as the behaviour doesn't become dangerous to anyone else, or to impact the learning in the classroom to a point where that's not not manageable.
So a lot of it is about helping staff. It's about training staff. It's also about the awareness of of what difference is, you know, I really will balk at very strict draconian behaviour policies. That means that some children with particular needs simply will never be able to, to, to manage. And we, we noticed that particularly after Covid, when children were going back into quite.
So a lot of it is about helping staff. It's about training staff. It's also about the awareness of of what difference is, you know, I really will balk at very strict draconian behaviour policies. That means that some children with particular needs simply will never be able to, to, to manage. And we, we noticed that particularly after Covid, when children were going back into quite.
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Caroline Voaden
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Caroline Voaden
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Early life trauma in from the way children are behaving? I mean, as someone who's worked in. education a lot, not enough in truth. I mean, of course will will touch on it and but the pressures of, of, of, of initial teacher education courses is to teach to a fairly standard curriculum and to a fairly standard set of, of, of, of practices. So yes, I think it would be really helpful if it was far more attention given to, to need and to recognise indeed , and to working.
collaboratively as schools to be able to, to meet that need. And that. allows the children who don't have . Those needs
collaboratively as schools to be able to, to meet that need. And that. allows the children who don't have . Those needs
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Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
Yeah. Because it's good for all of them in the end. Yeah. Sam. I mean, I, again, I really agree with what's been said already. I think one thing I wanted to add. was the around the, some of the. alarming I evidence that, that we've seen in terms of practice. operated in some places. I think there's been quite widely covered around silent corridors and those sorts of things.
But actually it goes further than that. And I think I don't want to get too far into the the structural issue here, but I think some trusts in particular, we've seen examples of that which obviously been covered by the press. And I think I don't think that's done any any good in terms of bringing children and young people along that engagement journey. I think the uniforms. Another
But actually it goes further than that. And I think I don't want to get too far into the the structural issue here, but I think some trusts in particular, we've seen examples of that which obviously been covered by the press. And I think I don't think that's done any any good in terms of bringing children and young people along that engagement journey. I think the uniforms. Another
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Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
And actually the vast majority of those are, are local needs. They are, are needs that are, are, are difficult to look at through the lens of a national level. And actually, our members tell us about all sorts of things that actually, if you get up on a national stage, a very hard to relate to. So I think, I think what what we've seen, particularly with the accountability system in this country, is that we've, we've not not allowed that kind of.
contextually aware. approach to, to develop. I think some schools and trusts have been really hindered. Their. The white Paper was very encouraging when it talked about community anchors and anchoring schools within the community. I think we have a ready made source for doing that, which is governance, particularly at a local level. Our one concern there is that, again, there are some trusts that that don't have local governance in in a way that I think people want to be a part of anymore.
So that's something that we've been urging the department recently. They're going to consult on what local governance will look like. We really think that needs to come with real. agency at local level. And if it doesn't, local volunteers, you know, you . Would
contextually aware. approach to, to develop. I think some schools and trusts have been really hindered. Their. The white Paper was very encouraging when it talked about community anchors and anchoring schools within the community. I think we have a ready made source for doing that, which is governance, particularly at a local level. Our one concern there is that, again, there are some trusts that that don't have local governance in in a way that I think people want to be a part of anymore.
So that's something that we've been urging the department recently. They're going to consult on what local governance will look like. We really think that needs to come with real. agency at local level. And if it doesn't, local volunteers, you know, you . Would
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Shall I start with Doctor Thompson? So, I mean, Peter wouldn't be my focus. It's a focus in many countries around the world. It's a measure. But if you look what it actually measures, it's a particular form of. examination that certain groups of children are schooled into. So I think it's a very imperfect measure. Having said that, you know. attainment is important.
So so looking at. particularly literacy levels and numeracy and understanding scientific need and so on. But I would I wouldn't focus on Peter, I think I think it's a mistake to do so. I think we need to focus on. which schools are doing things right. So quite often as as academics, we get accused of sort of talking in blanket ways about, about, about schools. And I catch myself doing it sometimes.
Not all schools in England are doing poorly in terms of behaviour, in terms of attendance, in terms of.
So so looking at. particularly literacy levels and numeracy and understanding scientific need and so on. But I would I wouldn't focus on Peter, I think I think it's a mistake to do so. I think we need to focus on. which schools are doing things right. So quite often as as academics, we get accused of sort of talking in blanket ways about, about, about schools. And I catch myself doing it sometimes.
Not all schools in England are doing poorly in terms of behaviour, in terms of attendance, in terms of.
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
And that's what we need to focus on. So when you go into a school where relationships are really at the core, you can see circle time being done by schools, which some would say would take it out of curriculum time. But those young people are far more likely to be open and honest with each other. They're far more likely to feel safe in the school, and they're far more likely to feel belong. And those schools do extremely well in, in in attainment.
There's a danger with all league tables. League tables can be perverse.
There's a danger with all league tables. League tables can be perverse.
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Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
game, to fit the league table. It was a very good editorial yesterday by John Severs, the editor of the Times Educational Supplement, in which he just reflected on what happened with the publication of Pisa results last week. And he said people essentially saw in it what they wanted to see in it. So you saw the trad right brigade saying, this shows England's doing better than the rest of the UK. You had other people who might label on the left, or you might just say they had a different view, who were saying, actually, this is because there has been a stalling by of progress in other countries.
To me, it as a school which had a partnership with kids in Shanghai, and we used to take children out to Shanghai and bring those. The idea that you can compare. culturally different young people, you know, on Saturday mornings in Shanghai, I'd bump into the kids at that school say, where are you going? They were going to their extra physics lessons, etc. education was part of their DNA. So I'm a bit sceptical about what Peter might tell us, except for this one thing, and this is a missed opportunity by the government this year, like last year, like the year before and like the year before, a third of young people at GCSE in English got a grade three or grade two or grade one.
When I asked the minister Gibb, what do you call a grade three? If you call grade four a standard pass, what do you call grade three? And he said, presumably it's a good fail. We have to do better than that. We have to. With a third of young people, the the forgotten third, we have to give them the dignity of saying, here's what I can do instead of rubbing their noses.
So before we all gloat too much about what Pisa was telling us about reading skills, etc., we ought to be sorting out that GCSE. qualification so that those young people have the dignity of. achievement and can move on with a sense of self respect. That, for me would be the real big win. And the curriculum review did nothing about that.
To me, it as a school which had a partnership with kids in Shanghai, and we used to take children out to Shanghai and bring those. The idea that you can compare. culturally different young people, you know, on Saturday mornings in Shanghai, I'd bump into the kids at that school say, where are you going? They were going to their extra physics lessons, etc. education was part of their DNA. So I'm a bit sceptical about what Peter might tell us, except for this one thing, and this is a missed opportunity by the government this year, like last year, like the year before and like the year before, a third of young people at GCSE in English got a grade three or grade two or grade one.
When I asked the minister Gibb, what do you call a grade three? If you call grade four a standard pass, what do you call grade three? And he said, presumably it's a good fail. We have to do better than that. We have to. With a third of young people, the the forgotten third, we have to give them the dignity of saying, here's what I can do instead of rubbing their noses.
So before we all gloat too much about what Pisa was telling us about reading skills, etc., we ought to be sorting out that GCSE. qualification so that those young people have the dignity of. achievement and can move on with a sense of self respect. That, for me would be the real big win. And the curriculum review did nothing about that.
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Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
paper does enough about it either. Some very similar, although I wouldn't articulate it as well as Geoff has, I think I think for me, the, the, the Pisa results have already been. weaponized politically, which obviously I understand that, but it does mean as a result, it's hard to to know how helpful they are. I think I think what they don't really do and what the conversation hasn't really focused on is enough is actually what was the cost of, of getting there? You know, we have I know the select committee already had an inquiry into Ofsted a couple of years ago.
And actually, you know, we the situation among head teachers and and teachers at the moment is pretty catastrophic for lots of people. So I think we need to pick deeper about . Actually
And actually, you know, we the situation among head teachers and and teachers at the moment is pretty catastrophic for lots of people. So I think we need to pick deeper about . Actually
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Peter Swallow
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Peter Swallow
Thank you. Thank you. We'll go to Peter. Thank you. So there has been a huge amount of stuff coming out in this space from the the schools white paper, the curriculum assessment review. And we're all waiting, of course, for Alan Milburn's final report on NEETs. But we've had the interim report, and a lot of this is looking at how we can make sure our young people are empowered with the right skills they need for the future of employment, for the future of their lives.
What do you think the steps should be to get us to . A place
What do you think the steps should be to get us to . A place
11:41
Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
where our young people are empowered with the skills they need? Sam, starting with you. Yeah, I, I think the first thing to say is I think there's still a lot of thinking to be done, both from the government, but also from, from organisations like ours. We, you know, it is very much an emerging conversation in lots of ways. I think that we again, I'll refer to my earlier point. I think we actually need to make sure within that, that, that scoping, that that exploration exercise that we are, we are genuinely listening to both what children and young people are saying, but also.
parents and not alienating them from that conversation. So I
parents and not alienating them from that conversation. So I
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Ian. So children missing education are most likely to be neat. It seems really obvious thing to say, but we need to start with the process of why so many children are missing so many days of school, and what the effect of that that has on them in terms of their future life outcomes, which research evidence is very strong on that I would I would welcome, you know, the, the. proposals to, to, to.
strengthen some some forms of different forms of education, but it needs to be given the status when I'm old enough to have been through quite a few reviews that have argued the same thing and each time, and we've been promised that a. vocational awards would have the same status. They simply haven't. They haven't been seen that way by schools and, and, and often not by employers as well. So that's what we need to get right.
We need to get to, to a place where schools and. employers and where.
strengthen some some forms of different forms of education, but it needs to be given the status when I'm old enough to have been through quite a few reviews that have argued the same thing and each time, and we've been promised that a. vocational awards would have the same status. They simply haven't. They haven't been seen that way by schools and, and, and often not by employers as well. So that's what we need to get right.
We need to get to, to a place where schools and. employers and where.
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11:43
Peter Swallow
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Peter Swallow
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
looking at all subjects developing young people's skills? I think we should look at all sorts. But as a grizzled old English teacher, we could talk a lot about literacy across the curriculum and the importance of that. You know, it's still there. I mean, you know, most teachers will say that that's an important thing, but actually we need to do far more of that. So we talk about Oracy. Well, Oracy is part of all subjects.
You know, it's an integral part of all subjects, but it's also particular to subject. And whether it's. vocational or. scientific or your studying Shakespeare, you need to develop a language which is subject.
You know, it's an integral part of all subjects, but it's also particular to subject. And whether it's. vocational or. scientific or your studying Shakespeare, you need to develop a language which is subject.
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Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
Your thunder there, but, but what would you add? What I would add is I think that the white paper tries to do too much. It adds 104. I think it is new requirements on schools and colleges. If we're not careful, we're going to flog the system to death here. The starting point should be we've got a good education system in England, right? What would be the game changers? What three things would be the game changers? Transition from primary to secondary appears to be where a lot of the things start to unravel.
Attendance, for example, behaviour. And to its credit, by setting up a key stage three task force, the government has now brought some people with real insight to say, what do we need to do around key stage three? So we one. priority that previous point about GCSE and the forgotten. Third, why don't we sort that out? And to take your specific point about vocational.
Attendance, for example, behaviour. And to its credit, by setting up a key stage three task force, the government has now brought some people with real insight to say, what do we need to do around key stage three? So we one. priority that previous point about GCSE and the forgotten. Third, why don't we sort that out? And to take your specific point about vocational.
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11:45
Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
would think from some of the narrative which had been playing out, that what we're saying is all all of those working class kids are now going to become carpenters and aren't going to be expected to do English and maths. It's nonsense, absolutely nonsense. What we're saying is, in my case, because we sent 20 young people to the college next door, right, for two days a week, they did better in their English and maths GCSE. They were more engaged, their behaviour was better.
They had a sense of pride in what they were doing. So opening up that space and getting away from the snobbery of vocational, technical versus academic would seem to me three game changers that we've got. But there's too much in there, and too many of the people I used to represent will feel that they've got to jump through too many hoops here. And I think we do have an opportunity with a new education secretary, a new prime minister, to look back at that document and say, so what are the key.
elements and what's the timeline? What should we be expecting people to do? And that, I . Think,
They had a sense of pride in what they were doing. So opening up that space and getting away from the snobbery of vocational, technical versus academic would seem to me three game changers that we've got. But there's too much in there, and too many of the people I used to represent will feel that they've got to jump through too many hoops here. And I think we do have an opportunity with a new education secretary, a new prime minister, to look back at that document and say, so what are the key.
elements and what's the timeline? What should we be expecting people to do? And that, I . Think,
11:45
Peter Swallow
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Peter Swallow
Would start to take the profession more along with us on the reform agenda? Yeah, I too much in there is, I think, a fair critique, but it's a difficult one to balance, isn't it? I mean, in the last panel we were hearing about how important it is to improve enrichment in schools. I think, you know, we would all agree that that is really important. You know, you you've obviously spoken at great length about the importance of putting more oracy into the curriculum, but how do we get this balance between all of the things that we all rightly want to add in? And perhaps, you know what we might need to take out? You said this too much in there.
I guess what I'm saying is, how do we . Work out
I guess what I'm saying is, how do we . Work out
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Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
then what we don't go forward with given I think there's some stuff in there which is pretty. managerial really, if I'm honest, which, you know, the reality is, as a head teacher in Suffolk, I used to think that people in Westminster thought they knew better than than we did and stuff about how to run schools. There's some stuff around behaviour and attendance. Yes, set.
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Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
to strip back some of this, have a curriculum that we're. And the trouble with the curriculum is that 12th Night is 12th Night in the hands of teacher A. It's inspiring and wonderful, and the hands of teacher B, it's absolutely abysmal. I never want to see Shakespeare again. Thank you very much. That comes to pedagogy. So thinking about the curriculum, thinking about how do we develop our.
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11:47
Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
Giving young people agency, how do we then have pathways so that young people feel a sense of achievement? And how do we get the special needs agenda right for young people? I've listed four things there. Those, for me would be the priorities. And the Secretary of State and the Prime Minister would look back and think, we have started on the road to taking a good education system, but making it work for those 30% for whom .
It's not working at the
It's not working at the
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11:48
Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
Let's start with some. I think I think part of the issue here I will come to. The answer, I promise, is that obviously we've. We've had quite disjointed sector for for a long time, and I think there is a need to work towards a system that works. better across the piece, I think. I think that that's one thing, whether whether every school should be in a trust or not, I think sort of almost feels like we're moving past that question in lots of ways.
I think actually it's for for us, it's actually when we think about.
I think actually it's for for us, it's actually when we think about.
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11:48
Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
What, what is, what is their value? And I think, I think that's what has to be asked before we get more schools into trust. It's what, what value will that trust add to that school? And actually, if we have a trust for every school that adds value, then then fair enough that that works. I think at the moment, part of the issue is there's too many schools out there who, who either say, I can't find a trust that's going to add real value.
There's other schools that have been in a trust, and it's it's. not what they expected it to be.
There's other schools that have been in a trust, and it's it's. not what they expected it to be.
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11:49
Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
The they almost wish they'd never done that in the first place. And I think, I think these are really big problems that haven't really been been solved yet. And I think, I think for us, that's that's part of there's still a lack of evidence, I think, for, for lots of schools out there who have not made that move. And until that evidence is there and given in a way that is truly accepted by every school,
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11:49
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
to. Yeah. I mean, if I think back to the local. authority relationship with schools before, before trusts, where it worked well, it was because local authorities was able to offer challenge but support. And it's the latter that's the most important in terms of supporting. schools to do the challenging things and that. And if that means meeting needs better educational needs, for.
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Trusts do that. Well, I mean, I've seen examples of where that happens. Others don't do it well at all. In fact, almost make it difficult for those children to remain within their system. And there are still local authorities that work well with schools. But others, other local. authorities feel they've had resource taken away to the point where they do very little else but special. educational needs.
So I think it needs a real rethink. I'm, you know, I'm I'm, I don't think we need to be pro or anti trust in any position. We need to think, well, what, what should a trust be or what should a local authority be? It needs to be able to do those things to challenge and . Support
So I think it needs a real rethink. I'm, you know, I'm I'm, I don't think we need to be pro or anti trust in any position. We need to think, well, what, what should a trust be or what should a local authority be? It needs to be able to do those things to challenge and . Support
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11:51
Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
A headteacher in London came up to me just after her open evening and she said a parent had brought a child with mild anxiety and so on, and had been to a previous open evening, a rival school, as it were, right where that school had said we don't really do special needs as our school. You'd be better off going to that school. At the moment, it's in my. interest not to have certain children in my school and they go to your school, said, now that comes down to how do we get a genuine sense that we are measured by the child who is in my school, or your school, or your special school or your pupil referral unit? How do we have a collective accountability for all of those children so they're not falling through the cracks? To its credit, the government is taking that on and it needs to be taken on.
Now, whether that means we're working in a partnership cord to trust, whether we're working in a partnership called something else, we really need to. incentivise what I think we do in the main C, which is people working together on behalf of those children and young people. But probably the accountability system needs to make sure that none of those children are disappearing. And that's the bit I would be interested in. And . We were
Now, whether that means we're working in a partnership cord to trust, whether we're working in a partnership called something else, we really need to. incentivise what I think we do in the main C, which is people working together on behalf of those children and young people. But probably the accountability system needs to make sure that none of those children are disappearing. And that's the bit I would be interested in. And . We were
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11:52
Rebecca Paul
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Rebecca Paul
that in the Haskell days, as you well know. Can I just follow up on your point about schools joining trusts and then maybe regretting that? And how do you make sure that every school is in the right trust, accepting that that is government policy? Now, do you think there's a need for a change in the rules about decision making around which trusts school is in? So I just want to give you an example from my constituency.
We had a school that is still still part of a trust that is based a very long way away. It has no sort of geographical locus at all that, for a time, was desperate to join a very locally based trust under the current rules, that can only happen if that school is effectively released by its current trust, and that they were not willing to do that. And so it couldn't be resolved. And I just wonder whether you could see a case for the government joining up its.
agenda on. place with its actual. practical decision making arrangements and .
We had a school that is still still part of a trust that is based a very long way away. It has no sort of geographical locus at all that, for a time, was desperate to join a very locally based trust under the current rules, that can only happen if that school is effectively released by its current trust, and that they were not willing to do that. And so it couldn't be resolved. And I just wonder whether you could see a case for the government joining up its.
agenda on. place with its actual. practical decision making arrangements and .
11:53
Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
Rules on the the membership of different trusts. It's we've debated this point a lot in terms of what our. position should be as an organisation, because it is really tricky. We have, just for context, we have an equal number of members either side, those in in trusts and those maintained schools or single academy trusts. I think in an ideal world, we should have exactly what you've you've just said. I think there is a real.
challenge at the. moment with. unpicking the sort of empire building that happened, you know, five, ten years ago, the the. reality that a lot of trust growth has in the past been based on .
challenge at the. moment with. unpicking the sort of empire building that happened, you know, five, ten years ago, the the. reality that a lot of trust growth has in the past been based on .
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11:54
Mark Sewards
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Mark Sewards
Have taken on schools to increase the the count school count rather than. necessarily to say, actually, this this school fits our local agenda. So I think yes is my answer. It's not an official NGO position at this point in time. I think it would have to be done at a point, and I don't know how we get there, but the sector needs to be mature enough to, to, for, for some trust to say, actually, yeah, I can, I can see that you would be much better in that trust there that has that, that local positioning around where you are.
We do know some trusts that have done that. And have even asked for schools to be released to those trusts. And
We do know some trusts that have done that. And have even asked for schools to be released to those trusts. And
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11:55
Darren Paffey
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Darren Paffey
Thank you very much. That's really helpful. And we'll go to Darren for final questions. Thank you. Ministers have made narrowing the. disadvantage gap one of their kind of central objectives. And we all know there are multiple challenges to that. There's the problem of identifying disadvantaged in the first place. There's the problem of targeting resources effectively. And then there's the issue of all the kind of factors outside of the home that have an impact on child's disadvantage within school.
In your view, which of those is the bigger. problem and what are the measures that are needed in . Order to kind
In your view, which of those is the bigger. problem and what are the measures that are needed in . Order to kind
11:56
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
of achieve those outcomes? Geoff, do you want to start? Yeah, I mean, it's a very, very big question that and it's it's the issue which has bedevilled the education system across the UK, including in England, isn't it? For me, the issue is how do we. incentivise leaders to go into those most disadvantaged communities, and how do we. incentivize teachers to go and work there and teaching assistants as well? And at the moment, a bit like we were saying, it can seem to be in my interest for some young people to go to your school, not to mine.
It is definitely my interest not to go into certain communities. Now, we've seen all kinds of attempts to try and incentivise that, partly through pay, etc. I do come back to the. accountability measures because it has felt too often, and there are some very well known. examples that you get a bad Ofsted and you'll pay the price for it. I used to run a trade union. We were first hand supporting those people where the governor suddenly lost confidence in someone because of an Ofsted.
And this isn't to to to point the finger of blame only at Ofsted, which is oversimplistic. But there is something about how do we give a sense of long term. commitment from leaders who know that it's going to take time to improve that school? And part of what we need to do is to have teachers who are going to stay with us on part of that journey. Again, there are. examples around the country and perhaps the White Paper talking about its coastal mission and talking about its mission northeast, etc.
perhaps that can shine a light on how do we get great people to go to the communities who most need great teachers and great leaders? And I think disadvantage? It is a big question, but it's the right question to ask, the right question to try to to pinpoint, because I think Jeff's right. The schools in particular parts of the country, particularly with high poverty, but also other social issues where the teaching force is, is struggling and people don't see them as a place to go to.
Well, we've seen the opposite where schools thrive in in similar challenging areas, there's a different feel to those schools. They do feel that belonging, the staff feel proud to be there. They feel proud to work in, in those those communities. Sometimes they're very close to those communities. You can you can tell by the accents when when you hear the staff, both teaching staff, but particularly the support staff, I would say within those schools, they've often come through those those communities with a keen sense that these are our children, our responsibility.
So I think, you know, the. identification of. disadvantage is an important thing to do. It can be can seem difficult because, you know, people don't like to be labelled and they certainly don't like labelling. But, but to, to, to think that if I come from privileged.
It is definitely my interest not to go into certain communities. Now, we've seen all kinds of attempts to try and incentivise that, partly through pay, etc. I do come back to the. accountability measures because it has felt too often, and there are some very well known. examples that you get a bad Ofsted and you'll pay the price for it. I used to run a trade union. We were first hand supporting those people where the governor suddenly lost confidence in someone because of an Ofsted.
And this isn't to to to point the finger of blame only at Ofsted, which is oversimplistic. But there is something about how do we give a sense of long term. commitment from leaders who know that it's going to take time to improve that school? And part of what we need to do is to have teachers who are going to stay with us on part of that journey. Again, there are. examples around the country and perhaps the White Paper talking about its coastal mission and talking about its mission northeast, etc.
perhaps that can shine a light on how do we get great people to go to the communities who most need great teachers and great leaders? And I think disadvantage? It is a big question, but it's the right question to ask, the right question to try to to pinpoint, because I think Jeff's right. The schools in particular parts of the country, particularly with high poverty, but also other social issues where the teaching force is, is struggling and people don't see them as a place to go to.
Well, we've seen the opposite where schools thrive in in similar challenging areas, there's a different feel to those schools. They do feel that belonging, the staff feel proud to be there. They feel proud to work in, in those those communities. Sometimes they're very close to those communities. You can you can tell by the accents when when you hear the staff, both teaching staff, but particularly the support staff, I would say within those schools, they've often come through those those communities with a keen sense that these are our children, our responsibility.
So I think, you know, the. identification of. disadvantage is an important thing to do. It can be can seem difficult because, you know, people don't like to be labelled and they certainly don't like labelling. But, but to, to, to think that if I come from privileged.
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11:58
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
I, you know, I will have life easier than if I don't come from that, that privileged. background and therefore the need will be greater. So, you know, provision needs to be placed for that need and that may need schools getting extra funding. You know, there's a lot of talk about the way that schools are funded and some of the funding decisions have been made in the past have actually moved some of the the money away from inner city schools to areas which which also have.
disadvantaged been heard a lot in that previous session about, about about rural schools. And it's true poverty exists in all pockets of the country, but resources need to be there at the right time, and help needs to be there at the . Right time
disadvantaged been heard a lot in that previous session about, about about rural schools. And it's true poverty exists in all pockets of the country, but resources need to be there at the right time, and help needs to be there at the . Right time
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11:59
Mark Sewards
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Mark Sewards
identified as early as possible. Yeah. Thank you. I think the only thing I'd add, I completely agree with both Ian and Geoff. I think the the one thing the white paper is doing well is it's opening up that conversation that hasn't really been been very. accessible in lots of ways. I think the time has come for us to not just look at how we fund disadvantaged, but actually, you know, through the through the funding mechanism, which the White Paper is doing, but actually more holistically.
Look at how we define. disadvantage in its entirety. I think that we've, we've kind of had this quite narrow focus. And one of the pieces of work we've done at Nga is, is broadening the definition of disadvantaged. So I, I'll be sure to, to send that on afterwards. But again, I think as well, without not wanting to sound like a broken record, I think again, it does really come down to the accountability narrative, I think.
We really need to. incentivize schools to, to, to, to take, take. I don't even like saying this, but to take a risk, take a chance, because it is it is that for them, I guess that corresponds with Jeff's story that he shared, which I think is really powerful, actually. We need to see more schools taking risks on, on, on children and young people they haven't done before. And I think actually, if we widen out .
The
Look at how we define. disadvantage in its entirety. I think that we've, we've kind of had this quite narrow focus. And one of the pieces of work we've done at Nga is, is broadening the definition of disadvantaged. So I, I'll be sure to, to send that on afterwards. But again, I think as well, without not wanting to sound like a broken record, I think again, it does really come down to the accountability narrative, I think.
We really need to. incentivize schools to, to, to, to take, take. I don't even like saying this, but to take a risk, take a chance, because it is it is that for them, I guess that corresponds with Jeff's story that he shared, which I think is really powerful, actually. We need to see more schools taking risks on, on, on children and young people they haven't done before. And I think actually, if we widen out .
The
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
I think is vital. Great. Thank you. They need to know that they're not going to be. penalised for doing the right thing. And what I mean by that is for making them, you know, looking at aspects of belonging, looking at relational practice, that's quite hard work in schools to, to change cultures. We think typically it takes three years and they need to know that within that, within that period, you know, they're not going to be pilloried for, for, for not towing a particular line, whether it's a multi academy trust and or perception of what Ofsted is looking for, because it's often not what .
They're,
They're,
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
that in the context of accountability measures not not accountability but measures, but also, you know, when, when, when they do need help ? Echoing both Sam and Jeff, I mean, collaboration is the key to that. And it's collaboration between schools and local authorities and, and trusts. That's really important. So we're sharing best practice, but also. resource where that's available. So, you know.
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
could be addressed. That'd be a really important step forward. And what I'd be saying to ministers is Winston Churchill said headteachers have got more power than the British Prime minister. They forget that. But they've got more power than the Prime Minister. If ministers you think place matters and I'm head teacher in this place, I'm going to do what we believe is right for the young people in our community. You've given us.
102 additional responsibilities. We're going to choose the things that we think will make the difference. And that means there will be some things in your white paper that we won't be doing, because we're going to focus on what will be the game changer, particularly for those children from disadvantaged backgrounds. And I speak from experience with that. I'm a trustee of the Royal Shakespeare Company, who go into the most disadvantaged. communities on a ten year basis, long term building.
And I went up to Cumbria and watched some kids debating whether they preferred Titus. Andronicus to The Tempest. They were seven and eight year olds.
102 additional responsibilities. We're going to choose the things that we think will make the difference. And that means there will be some things in your white paper that we won't be doing, because we're going to focus on what will be the game changer, particularly for those children from disadvantaged backgrounds. And I speak from experience with that. I'm a trustee of the Royal Shakespeare Company, who go into the most disadvantaged. communities on a ten year basis, long term building.
And I went up to Cumbria and watched some kids debating whether they preferred Titus. Andronicus to The Tempest. They were seven and eight year olds.
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Helen Hayes
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Helen Hayes
accountable for that. Really clear. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you so much. If there were any topics that we didn't get to cover today, any further thoughts that you've got, please do write to us afterwards. We would really welcome that. But thank you, all three of you, for taking the time to be with us this morning and to consider these important issues. That .
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