Digital, Culture, Media and Sport Committee
Tuesday 13th October 2026
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09:59
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Habits have changed in that we've seen the 14 day. The 14 night holiday is a thing of the past. The average length holiday now is about 9.6 days. We're seeing people trading down ever since 20 2021, when tourism peaked post-pandemic. It's been falling away in terms of expenditure and in terms of duration as well. So we're seeing people trading down for either spending less time in destinations or less time and staying in cheaper properties and destinations.
We've seen a move away across Europe and in the UK of moving away from traditional accommodation, hotels, guesthouses, B&Bs into short term rentals known as STRs, your Airbnb type thing that now, within a very short time that has grown to take probably 2,025% of the market. So hotels traditional accommodation is now around 40 to 45%. Let me think. Let me just look at my notes and say what else has changed in the past few years? I've said downsizing.
I've said we're shifting away. Funnily enough, this is something that's across Europe now, which gives you a real indication of how tight spending is, how little disposable income people have. It's not just the UK. I heard it in Spain as well. People self-catering in hotels, cleaning staff going into hotel rooms and finding supermarket bags in their in the UK and in Spain. And I heard about it last week in Switzerland as well. So the general indication is there's much less money around, but people still, particularly the British, will always put.
I mean, the joke is they'll put a holiday before a kidney replacement. They were always prioritized travel, but they're having to cut their cloth to suit their budget.
We've seen a move away across Europe and in the UK of moving away from traditional accommodation, hotels, guesthouses, B&Bs into short term rentals known as STRs, your Airbnb type thing that now, within a very short time that has grown to take probably 2,025% of the market. So hotels traditional accommodation is now around 40 to 45%. Let me think. Let me just look at my notes and say what else has changed in the past few years? I've said downsizing.
I've said we're shifting away. Funnily enough, this is something that's across Europe now, which gives you a real indication of how tight spending is, how little disposable income people have. It's not just the UK. I heard it in Spain as well. People self-catering in hotels, cleaning staff going into hotel rooms and finding supermarket bags in their in the UK and in Spain. And I heard about it last week in Switzerland as well. So the general indication is there's much less money around, but people still, particularly the British, will always put.
I mean, the joke is they'll put a holiday before a kidney replacement. They were always prioritized travel, but they're having to cut their cloth to suit their budget.
10:01
10:01
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
think as a priority, they want yeah, a new experience that they can maybe put on their social media and they can talk about and something they've never done before. It's not really going to somewhere and then just lying on the beach, they want to be out doing things, entertaining the children with whatever they can and going to like the coolest cafes and more interesting, adventurous travel.
10:01
10:01
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
I think a lot of attractions and places are making them more visually interesting and sort of having activations there where you can take your Instagram photos and tag them and share ways to share the experience easily and things that you have to do when you go to a destination. So I think they're trying to add to the experiences there by creating Instagrammable visual things to do there.
10:02
10:02
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
I don't think they've really adapted to it at all. I don't think they I think they've yet to realise that. They don't know whether this is a permanent change or a temporary change. Everyone's kind of hoping for the best that people will choose more. But what I wanted to add to, to what I said about changing habits, my area of expertise is the British coast, the UK seaside and overnight stays in the British seaside have dropped by 18% in the past ten years.
Not only that, the duration of short breaks has gone from 3.3 days down to 2.9. The average duration people. So I just wanted to add that to your previous question. But in terms of their the industry's preparedness for shorter durations and shorter spend, no, they're not ready for it. But what I want to make clear, this is not uniquely British. This is exactly the same across Europe. There is an article in the Spanish trade trade press this morning talking about how hotels have been hit by the fact that people are spending so little money in hotels.
They're not buying, they're not going to restaurants, they're not going to spas, they're not buying all those extra things. They're also not doing in the UK either. But the problem is, if you're going to offer spa's and 24 hour dining, you have to have the staff there. So you're not taking the money, but you're still spending on the on the provision.
Not only that, the duration of short breaks has gone from 3.3 days down to 2.9. The average duration people. So I just wanted to add that to your previous question. But in terms of their the industry's preparedness for shorter durations and shorter spend, no, they're not ready for it. But what I want to make clear, this is not uniquely British. This is exactly the same across Europe. There is an article in the Spanish trade trade press this morning talking about how hotels have been hit by the fact that people are spending so little money in hotels.
They're not buying, they're not going to restaurants, they're not going to spas, they're not buying all those extra things. They're also not doing in the UK either. But the problem is, if you're going to offer spa's and 24 hour dining, you have to have the staff there. So you're not taking the money, but you're still spending on the on the provision.
10:04
Caroline Dinenage
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Caroline Dinenage
And that sounds unsustainable in the long term. Yes. Yeah. Well, I mean, good news for you. At least two of our committee represent coastal potential tourist destinations, myself and bio. So we can we can liaise with you later on that. But Vicky, I wanted to just quite a lot of what you do. It talks about how families can still go away, even though they might have financial constraints or, you know, the cost of living pressures are mounting up on them.
What do you see that families prioritise when they're deciding whether a holiday offers good value for money?
What do you see that families prioritise when they're deciding whether a holiday offers good value for money?
10:04
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
I think it would be the overall experience and the cost of the overall experience. But like Chris said, I think people are prioritising self catering, so obviously that can save a lot of money. And then there's a whole movement online of travel hacks and money saving travel hacks. So like cooking in your hotel room. I mean, there's things about making meals with your with your hotel kettle and just ways that people can really save on things like that so that they can spend it on experiences and getting out.
10:05
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10:05
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Where to go? Yeah. I'll go. I'll tell you what the facts are. What the statistics say is that the average British family and by that it's two, you know, husband, wife and two kids. That's the average British family. Average British family takes about 3 to 4 holidays a year. That at least is from ONS .
10:06
10:06
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
3 to 4 holidays a year. They will be the big summer trip, almost always the Southern Med or maybe Florida or the US. The big and. But it's generally an overseas trip. They will also take another trip during the year, possibly at half term, which is either going to be short haul Europe or UK, UK coast. They will then take two further 1 or 2 further breaks during the year, which could be a weekend away in the UK or a city break in Europe.
That's the general model at the moment. The average spend is I did have the average spend here. Actually I've got it. The average spend for all that they say. According to statistics, this is like JFK and amateur data. It's about £7,500. I don't believe that. I think it's a lot more than that now. But going back to your question about what makes them choose , the one driver with the British holidaymaker is value is money.
It's the cost . And the permanent constant problem with UK holidays is the high cost. So just for example, if you wanted to go away to a four star hotel, a famous four star hotel in Cornwall. Next half term spring half term next year, may half term next year. That will cost you £1,020 per person B&B. You can have a week all inclusive in the Algarve for 960 or a week's all inclusive in the cost of Almeria in Spain for £778.
It's not competitive and bear in mind I just said that was 1020 per person B and B. If you add a modest £30 a day per person for lunch, dinner, drinks, ice creams, things like that, that takes a full price up to 1200. So it's twice the price of going to Spain. That is one of the biggest drivers. And that makes that makes increasingly makes the sort of the glamorous side of the British coast, the north Cornish coast, the south Devon coast.
That makes that more and more a middle class destination.
That's the general model at the moment. The average spend is I did have the average spend here. Actually I've got it. The average spend for all that they say. According to statistics, this is like JFK and amateur data. It's about £7,500. I don't believe that. I think it's a lot more than that now. But going back to your question about what makes them choose , the one driver with the British holidaymaker is value is money.
It's the cost . And the permanent constant problem with UK holidays is the high cost. So just for example, if you wanted to go away to a four star hotel, a famous four star hotel in Cornwall. Next half term spring half term next year, may half term next year. That will cost you £1,020 per person B&B. You can have a week all inclusive in the Algarve for 960 or a week's all inclusive in the cost of Almeria in Spain for £778.
It's not competitive and bear in mind I just said that was 1020 per person B and B. If you add a modest £30 a day per person for lunch, dinner, drinks, ice creams, things like that, that takes a full price up to 1200. So it's twice the price of going to Spain. That is one of the biggest drivers. And that makes that makes increasingly makes the sort of the glamorous side of the British coast, the north Cornish coast, the south Devon coast.
That makes that more and more a middle class destination.
10:08
10:08
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Just to say that I think the cost of holidays in school holidays is just escalating out of control. So a holiday part that I was looking at was £700 for four nights at the start of May, but then in the May half term, it's three and a half times as much at 2386. And that's just a basic lodge, no food or anything like that. And I just think it's making it totally prohibitive for people to go on holiday.
10:08
Bayo Alaba
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Bayo Alaba
Well thank you. And I mean, I represent sort of Southend. Beautiful part of the country. Very historic. But I suppose, as you mentioned, over a generation or so, it has lost out to sort of international travel. And so you mentioned that you spend, you know, part of your experience and speciality is sort of coastal community. So what should communities like Southend do in order to sort of, you know, increase, ensure its sort of appeal to sort of tourism to the tourism market.
10:09
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
I think. Can I make a position statement here? I've travelled almost everywhere. I can't tell you how many countries I've been to and in my job. And so I'm in a position of authority when I say that the British coast is the most beautiful on earth, without doubt the most beautiful. And I've seen, I've seen almost everywhere. I haven't been to Chechnya, but I don't think they've got a coast.
The other thing we need to bear in mind is the great British seaside is almost a figment of our imagination. If you look at the history of the British seaside, it was developed for short term gain. It was those massive Victorian buildings which need all that maintenance, all that wrought iron, all that decoration and grandeur. You need a lot of money to to maintain that. And that money isn't there. And it never was there during a 12 week season.
The season's longer now than it was in the the height of the British seaside. It was never built to last. So the idea that we can go back to what we had is, is ludicrous. But that said, what can Southend do? I'll give you two towns, two very different towns to look at Bude in North Cornwall and Great Yarmouth in. In Norfolk, Great Yarmouth was a moribund Victorian classic Victorian resort with piers and all those attractions that you'd expect.
Winter gardens in a state of decay in a state of near collapse. It wasn't quite up to sort of HMO level, but it was getting there. Bude, on the other hand, is a little country town, north coast of Cornwall. Great Yarmouth has benefited from the off, so it's benefited from external funding. I mean, first off, their council has gone for every grant they can get from the government. So the small town scheme, the community, the community trust schemes, the heritage funding, they've gone for everything, but also they've got a big income stream from offshore energy from.
Renewables. So they've got a lot of money and they are transforming that place. They're taking it there. The it's astonishing in the past few years how it has grown. So that's one way that they're doing. You can change fortunes. The cheaper way to change fortunes is to engage the community. Imbued is the exemplar of that. They have a very big. If you've ever been on the British beach and you've seen the two minute beach clean stands, you'll see a two minute beach clean.
It'll have a litter picker and some bags. That was an idea that came out of Bude. Bude is the only place, apart from South Shields, that it's one of the two places in the country that has a coastal parliament made up of citizens who make decisions about what their town needs to survive and thrive. That's all community engagement. And it's it's so it's, it's almost the polar opposite to the to the Great Yarmouth model using external funding.
It's doing it from within and, and, and it's succeeded. We, I mean, I write the Sunday Times Beach Guide and it won beach of the year this year. And that is a tough competition that Southend has never won.
The other thing we need to bear in mind is the great British seaside is almost a figment of our imagination. If you look at the history of the British seaside, it was developed for short term gain. It was those massive Victorian buildings which need all that maintenance, all that wrought iron, all that decoration and grandeur. You need a lot of money to to maintain that. And that money isn't there. And it never was there during a 12 week season.
The season's longer now than it was in the the height of the British seaside. It was never built to last. So the idea that we can go back to what we had is, is ludicrous. But that said, what can Southend do? I'll give you two towns, two very different towns to look at Bude in North Cornwall and Great Yarmouth in. In Norfolk, Great Yarmouth was a moribund Victorian classic Victorian resort with piers and all those attractions that you'd expect.
Winter gardens in a state of decay in a state of near collapse. It wasn't quite up to sort of HMO level, but it was getting there. Bude, on the other hand, is a little country town, north coast of Cornwall. Great Yarmouth has benefited from the off, so it's benefited from external funding. I mean, first off, their council has gone for every grant they can get from the government. So the small town scheme, the community, the community trust schemes, the heritage funding, they've gone for everything, but also they've got a big income stream from offshore energy from.
Renewables. So they've got a lot of money and they are transforming that place. They're taking it there. The it's astonishing in the past few years how it has grown. So that's one way that they're doing. You can change fortunes. The cheaper way to change fortunes is to engage the community. Imbued is the exemplar of that. They have a very big. If you've ever been on the British beach and you've seen the two minute beach clean stands, you'll see a two minute beach clean.
It'll have a litter picker and some bags. That was an idea that came out of Bude. Bude is the only place, apart from South Shields, that it's one of the two places in the country that has a coastal parliament made up of citizens who make decisions about what their town needs to survive and thrive. That's all community engagement. And it's it's so it's, it's almost the polar opposite to the to the Great Yarmouth model using external funding.
It's doing it from within and, and, and it's succeeded. We, I mean, I write the Sunday Times Beach Guide and it won beach of the year this year. And that is a tough competition that Southend has never won.
10:12
Bayo Alaba
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Bayo Alaba
Yeah. No it's an interesting thing. I mean what I would say is yeah, South is definitely one of the fastest growing sort of seaside towns in terms of day visitors, but not sort of overnight, which is something that we touched on. And, and I suppose this takes me to my next question, Vicky, in terms of you were talking about the experience being very important. And and I suppose that's something that's quite big in terms of my constituency in Southend because of its growing sort of visitor base day visitors.
In terms of the experience, what were the coastal community? What should UK sort of like tourist destinations? What should they do to increase the experience? You you spoke about the the visual elements, what else should they be doing to sort of attract sort of families? And, and.
In terms of the experience, what were the coastal community? What should UK sort of like tourist destinations? What should they do to increase the experience? You you spoke about the the visual elements, what else should they be doing to sort of attract sort of families? And, and.
10:13
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
So I live in Portsmouth and I have lived there the last nine years. I moved there to be by the sea because I'm from the Midlands. But I think something that Portsmouth does really well is we have so many events every weekend, especially through the summer, and so people are coming down to join. There's music festivals, food festivals, car festivals, there's all sorts going on throughout the summer and I think that really helps to bring in people. So one of our main festivals is victorious.
A lot of people come and then they're so impressed by Southsea and Portsmouth that then they come back, they have evidence of this. And so I think events like that are really important to to bring people in, because people might not necessarily have thought of Portsmouth or they might think of sort of Portsmouth in years gone by when it wasn't the most attractive place to go. But now they've done a lot of work on the seafront and it's looking good and there's a lot of there's a lot to do there.
We've got the Portsmouth Marine Dockyard that is the biggest attraction, but then it's nice just being there. It's a very arty place, coffee shops and so people want to come back after they've been to these festivals. They want to come back and see more.
A lot of people come and then they're so impressed by Southsea and Portsmouth that then they come back, they have evidence of this. And so I think events like that are really important to to bring people in, because people might not necessarily have thought of Portsmouth or they might think of sort of Portsmouth in years gone by when it wasn't the most attractive place to go. But now they've done a lot of work on the seafront and it's looking good and there's a lot of there's a lot to do there.
We've got the Portsmouth Marine Dockyard that is the biggest attraction, but then it's nice just being there. It's a very arty place, coffee shops and so people want to come back after they've been to these festivals. They want to come back and see more.
10:14
Bayo Alaba
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Bayo Alaba
In terms in terms of sort of regional mayors, the government is quite keen for regional mayors to have more sort of say there's talk about sort of overnight sort of visitor levies. What would be your view, your position on visitor levies for coastal communities or even for sort of any sort of tourist attraction sort of area? I can come back to you, Vicki. First.
10:14
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
I think if you can directly see that it's benefiting where you're staying, then great. But if it just sort of if the money just sort of disappears. But I think if maybe if there was a way to. A way for it to pay for something tangible that you could actually see, and you could say, oh, this is what we got from the levy rather than just being like, rather than just saying it was distributed.
10:15
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
This I don't think I've ever seen any evidence of tourism levies making the slightest difference to visitor intent. They come anyway, and no one's not going to go to Saint Ives because they've got to pay £5 extra a night. They'll still go. If anything, tourism levies are too low. Way too low to make any difference. I think you could go a lot higher. I also think you could probably start charging people to get into museums as well, because they're coming.
10:15
Bayo Alaba
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Bayo Alaba
Brilliant. My last question, chair, do I have. Right. My last question. So if there was a opportunity for communities to have sort of like package sort of offers, so train hotel accommodation, that kind of stuff, maybe even into 1 or 2 attractions, would that be something that communities or towns or cities could do to support their local communities? I know how that is administered could be a challenge, but is that something that communities should be thinking about?
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10:16
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
I'm interested, as you say, that because the systemic challenge faced by UK inbound by domestic travel in the UK is that it's up against a mature, efficient, highly polished industry that takes people, puts them on planes and delivers them by bus to the door of a hotel with a water park in it. That's all inclusive. This is the the the outbound travel agent. But you look at any travel agency in the UK, look in the window of any travel agency and see how many UK offers are there.
There might be a coach trip to go and see Mamma Mia or something. There is no equivalent. So the UK inbound is is up against. UK domestic is up against this huge, huge machine of the travel industry. We don't have the equivalent. Yes, that's the same in other countries, but the other countries have. And I'll look at Spain for example, Tour Espana has been massively successful at promoting Spain to Spanish people.
It created the Espana Verde campaign, which completely transformed Galicia, Asturias and the Basque Country, and turned that into a massive tourist attraction. That's the equivalent of finding a new Cornwall in the UK and then Andalusia, which is always popular with everybody. But they managed. They had a campaign called Andalusia Tierra and bringing people from all over Spain down there. I don't know at the moment, I don't know if it's visit England or visit Britain. I don't know what they do.
I don't hear from them ever. So I don't and I'm in the industry. So I think stronger representation, if it's not going to come from the public sector, from the private sector, it would have to come from the public sector, a way to represent British tourism attractions to the British people, like the English Tourist Board or something like that. That's my answer. So but I'd ask you to think about packages. Yes, definitely.
If we could somehow work. There's only one all inclusive hotel in the UK. Wow. It's on the Norfolk. It's on the Norfolk coast or Suffolk coast. It's called Hopton's near Lowestoft. But packages is a. That's a very good idea. I don't know how it would work though.
There might be a coach trip to go and see Mamma Mia or something. There is no equivalent. So the UK inbound is is up against. UK domestic is up against this huge, huge machine of the travel industry. We don't have the equivalent. Yes, that's the same in other countries, but the other countries have. And I'll look at Spain for example, Tour Espana has been massively successful at promoting Spain to Spanish people.
It created the Espana Verde campaign, which completely transformed Galicia, Asturias and the Basque Country, and turned that into a massive tourist attraction. That's the equivalent of finding a new Cornwall in the UK and then Andalusia, which is always popular with everybody. But they managed. They had a campaign called Andalusia Tierra and bringing people from all over Spain down there. I don't know at the moment, I don't know if it's visit England or visit Britain. I don't know what they do.
I don't hear from them ever. So I don't and I'm in the industry. So I think stronger representation, if it's not going to come from the public sector, from the private sector, it would have to come from the public sector, a way to represent British tourism attractions to the British people, like the English Tourist Board or something like that. That's my answer. So but I'd ask you to think about packages. Yes, definitely.
If we could somehow work. There's only one all inclusive hotel in the UK. Wow. It's on the Norfolk. It's on the Norfolk coast or Suffolk coast. It's called Hopton's near Lowestoft. But packages is a. That's a very good idea. I don't know how it would work though.
10:18
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10:18
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Amble in Northumberland. That was a that was a it was a derelict former coal port. And the community took the harbour over and turned it into this fabulous tourist attraction. It started with a coffee shop and it's great now and. But what you see, if you go to Hamble, you could get hold of old pictures of Hamble from maybe 20 years ago, and look at the High Street going down to the harbour, and now look at the way prosperity has radiated back up that high street.
And it's gone from being pound shops to sort of boutiques. And there's a deli. It's almost like Southwold. So amble is a good one. Hastings is another good one as well. Hastings took derelict a huge derelict. Department store in town, took it, turned it into community art centre, put gigs on there. You've got craft breweries again. That's it's getting the community involved. Bournemouth one thing I would like to say.
Bournemouth, South Beach very good example. Neglected beach at the far end. Bournemouth one of the most beautiful beaches in Europe. If it was treated properly by those who look after it, I mean the council. South Beach renovated a patch of neglected beach. They put a double double decker bus down there, turned it into a cafe . They were holding classes for, send children, for veterans, for the lonely, for widows.
It became a proper community asset used by the whole community. Brought tourists into the beach. Now the lease has run out and the council is saying, you've got to go. We're going to give someone else the job. They don't mind that. They don't mind going if someone else comes straight in, but it could take two years for the permissions, at which time South Beach just collapses again.
And it's gone from being pound shops to sort of boutiques. And there's a deli. It's almost like Southwold. So amble is a good one. Hastings is another good one as well. Hastings took derelict a huge derelict. Department store in town, took it, turned it into community art centre, put gigs on there. You've got craft breweries again. That's it's getting the community involved. Bournemouth one thing I would like to say.
Bournemouth, South Beach very good example. Neglected beach at the far end. Bournemouth one of the most beautiful beaches in Europe. If it was treated properly by those who look after it, I mean the council. South Beach renovated a patch of neglected beach. They put a double double decker bus down there, turned it into a cafe . They were holding classes for, send children, for veterans, for the lonely, for widows.
It became a proper community asset used by the whole community. Brought tourists into the beach. Now the lease has run out and the council is saying, you've got to go. We're going to give someone else the job. They don't mind that. They don't mind going if someone else comes straight in, but it could take two years for the permissions, at which time South Beach just collapses again.
10:20
10:20
10:20
Jeff Smith
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Jeff Smith
10:21
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10:21
Jeff Smith
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Jeff Smith
10:21
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
I think a lot of the TikTok and Instagram is it's what's it's what's come naturally, not necessarily the tourist boards putting their information out. It's sort of organic posts that just randomly do really well rather than a targeted thing. But obviously they should do that as well. And they do include influencers and they do invite influencers on trips and invite them to try new places out. But I think it's quite hard to make something go viral, right?
10:22
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10:22
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
You can. I'll give you a very, very quick example. A guy at WTM two years ago told me to choose a random travel video from YouTube, and it turned out to be a weekend, a German having a long weekend in in London, and he put that URL into a into an AI travel agent called Mind Trip, and it scanned it and came back with exactly the same, the exactly the same itinerary, where to stay, where to go, tower bridge.
This is the time to get there. Not only that, having gone through the user's Google records to find out what kind of shops he goes to, what he. What kind of food he buys, it recommended restaurants, hotels. It was absolutely personalized. That was terrifying to see. But that said, the travel industry is talking about it all the time now. Every conference you go to, there's a module on AI and is it going to steal our jobs? And they're being very they've either got their heads in the sand or they're being extremely sanguine, but they're saying no, because you're always going to need a human behind AI.
They're seeing it as a tool that travel agents could use, rather than something that would make travel agents redundant. Do you
This is the time to get there. Not only that, having gone through the user's Google records to find out what kind of shops he goes to, what he. What kind of food he buys, it recommended restaurants, hotels. It was absolutely personalized. That was terrifying to see. But that said, the travel industry is talking about it all the time now. Every conference you go to, there's a module on AI and is it going to steal our jobs? And they're being very they've either got their heads in the sand or they're being extremely sanguine, but they're saying no, because you're always going to need a human behind AI.
They're seeing it as a tool that travel agents could use, rather than something that would make travel agents redundant. Do you
10:23
10:23
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
I remember when I first when I first started in this industry 29 years ago, I was told to write an article called The Travel Brochure is Dead and it's. You still get travel brochures, you still get the glossy brochures. They're still making them. So no, I don't think it will put travel agents out of business, but I think they'll have to adapt.
10:24
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10:24
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
have used it for research, but I am of the stance that I think people will always want people. And I think that's why social media has is so influential, because people see actual people like them doing the kind of trips that they want to do, and then they can recreate it rather than just typing it in. And then a AI thing avatar telling you what to do. I wouldn't follow that information. I'd want a real person.
10:24
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10:25
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10:25
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
We see a lot of suspicion and fatigue in our readers at the whole notion of influencers and a certain amount of travel writing as well. It's basically you have a free holiday and write something nice about it. So there's lack of critical analysis. Yeah. But what we can bring to it is critical analysis. If we don't, if we think something is rubbish, we'll say it's rubbish. That has changed in the past, not so much at my newspaper, but in the past.
At other in other traditional media, there was the idea that if you can't say anything nice about it, don't write it. But that's changed now. Yeah, because the public need it. Yeah.
At other in other traditional media, there was the idea that if you can't say anything nice about it, don't write it. But that's changed now. Yeah, because the public need it. Yeah.
10:26
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10:26
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
think people still like them and it's just a different way of giving the information a different way for people to receive it. One of my friends has just written the Cornwall Guide actually, but she is also a travel influencer. So I think seeing it from those two different perspectives from the influencer, yeah, maybe getting free things to make the videos. Whereas The Lonely Planet, you're not allowed to get anything for free at all. It's interesting to see the different approaches.
10:27
Rupa Huq
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Rupa Huq
Yeah, thanks. Really interesting answers. It's reminding me of that Morrissey song. Everyday is like Sunday. Do you know that? I think it's about Blackpool, isn't it? The seaside town they forgot to shut down. I mean, some of the pen portraits are a bit sad, really, that you're describing of the infrastructure not being up to scratch of some of these regional destinations. I just wondered the party conferences.
That's when I used to get my trip to seaside, Bournemouth, Blackpool. I remember seeing Tony Blair at Blackpool. I think they've stopped using those because, like you said, that they just can't cope anymore. We're we're doing a trip to Blackpool aren't we? Is is the onus going away from these regional seaside towns to cities for things like because they used to be conference venues, did they not? News conference also used to be in Blackpool twice a year.
I remember.
That's when I used to get my trip to seaside, Bournemouth, Blackpool. I remember seeing Tony Blair at Blackpool. I think they've stopped using those because, like you said, that they just can't cope anymore. We're we're doing a trip to Blackpool aren't we? Is is the onus going away from these regional seaside towns to cities for things like because they used to be conference venues, did they not? News conference also used to be in Blackpool twice a year.
I remember.
10:27
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
I can't remember the statistic, but the vast majority of. As I said, the seaside has dropped off 18% in in the past ten years, but an overall overnight trips have also dropped off. They've gone from 100 and they've dropped by 12% since 2021. The amount of time people are spending away from home in the UK. But big now is event tourism, so you'll fill this city up for Taylor Swift or you'll fill Manchester up for Oasis.
They're not playing in the seaside. They're playing in the cities because that's where the that's where you can get the crowds in. That's where the infrastructure exists. To get that many people into a venue and out. And yeah, it's. The truth is, many of our seaside towns are in a terrible state of decline. It's. Blackpool is one you look at. Look at Eastbourne as well. Bognor Regis.
They're not playing in the seaside. They're playing in the cities because that's where the that's where you can get the crowds in. That's where the infrastructure exists. To get that many people into a venue and out. And yeah, it's. The truth is, many of our seaside towns are in a terrible state of decline. It's. Blackpool is one you look at. Look at Eastbourne as well. Bognor Regis.
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10:29
10:29
10:29
10:29
10:29
10:29
10:30
10:30
10:30
10:30
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
The 43 million, 43 million we get coming from overseas here every year, and they spend £33 billion, but they're they're from the US mainly then from the EU, then from Asia Pacific, then from Middle East. They spend an average of eight nights here. But they go to in order London, Edinburgh, Cambridge, Oxford and and recently Manchester is popular. So they don't go to the seaside.
10:30
10:30
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
I think there is a lack. You're right. It's not quite up to scratch. It's very seasonal. A lot of seaside towns are beautiful on a summer's day, but as soon as the sun goes in and winter time, they're just ghastly. There's we have an issue with the British seaside in that because it declined as an industry from the late 60s onwards because of the rise of the package holiday, the.
They ended up becoming. Many of our seaside towns have become retirement homes because the. The property was cheap and people could move to the seaside. The British dream to retire to the seaside. But there's no youth there. The young people have had to move away to move away to the cities. Bude is different because people always come back to you, but that's what makes it unique. Most places they leave, they don't come back.
So you have a place which is effectively a retirement colony. There's not. The season is only 12 weeks long. The industry is all focused on making as much money as you can in the season and not investing. Because if you think of those huge Victorian properties along the seafront, like Bognor or Eastbourne, again, the cost of the cost of maintaining those is staggering. So who is going to take on a great big building and open it as a seaside hotel in Cromer? In Norfolk we have the hotel de Paris, which was opened in 1888 by a Parisian hotelier who saw the future in the British seaside.
It's now almost derelict, but the problem is we have such a massive. Whereas every other country in Europe, not every other country, but the Southern Med has serious issues going forward. If you look at. Look at any climate science you like, but take world Weather attribution or take Cr's take anything. The prediction is that by the middle of this century, one 1 in 2 summers will be detrimental to health.
We will have blisteringly hot summers detrimental to health every on be 50% frequency from it's now it's supposed to be 1 in 10 now, although it's not what we've already seen. There's something called Caucasions. Everyone talks about Caucasions now. They don't really exist in the UK yet, but the idea is, is that people fleeing the summer heat to the northern climes to, to, to get away from the heat and enjoy it. We talk about people going to Finland, Lapland, but the UK is in a perfect position to, to to grasp that opportunity and to profit from it.
We have the seaside resorts, we have properties within the seaside resorts. It would be when we see the migration of people from the south, so people from Spain, Spain, Italy, Greece would be coming on holiday in the UK, in Ireland, in. In the Netherlands, in Scandinavia, the.
They ended up becoming. Many of our seaside towns have become retirement homes because the. The property was cheap and people could move to the seaside. The British dream to retire to the seaside. But there's no youth there. The young people have had to move away to move away to the cities. Bude is different because people always come back to you, but that's what makes it unique. Most places they leave, they don't come back.
So you have a place which is effectively a retirement colony. There's not. The season is only 12 weeks long. The industry is all focused on making as much money as you can in the season and not investing. Because if you think of those huge Victorian properties along the seafront, like Bognor or Eastbourne, again, the cost of the cost of maintaining those is staggering. So who is going to take on a great big building and open it as a seaside hotel in Cromer? In Norfolk we have the hotel de Paris, which was opened in 1888 by a Parisian hotelier who saw the future in the British seaside.
It's now almost derelict, but the problem is we have such a massive. Whereas every other country in Europe, not every other country, but the Southern Med has serious issues going forward. If you look at. Look at any climate science you like, but take world Weather attribution or take Cr's take anything. The prediction is that by the middle of this century, one 1 in 2 summers will be detrimental to health.
We will have blisteringly hot summers detrimental to health every on be 50% frequency from it's now it's supposed to be 1 in 10 now, although it's not what we've already seen. There's something called Caucasions. Everyone talks about Caucasions now. They don't really exist in the UK yet, but the idea is, is that people fleeing the summer heat to the northern climes to, to, to get away from the heat and enjoy it. We talk about people going to Finland, Lapland, but the UK is in a perfect position to, to to grasp that opportunity and to profit from it.
We have the seaside resorts, we have properties within the seaside resorts. It would be when we see the migration of people from the south, so people from Spain, Spain, Italy, Greece would be coming on holiday in the UK, in Ireland, in. In the Netherlands, in Scandinavia, the.
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Rupa Huq
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Rupa Huq
10:34
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
think reviews are very controversial because, yeah, anyone can leave them and you can be really annoyed at something because, you know, you see reviews for people moaning that a mountain was too windy and things like that. Like it's not a science. It's just, it can just be an opinion in that moment. And it's not a one star, a one star review can just totally drag them down and competitors can do it. I used to work at a company called Hostel Bookers, and competitors of the hostels would book a one night stay, so they'd only have to pay the deposit, and then they'd drag each other down with their reviews.
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10:34
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Thank you, chair. And can I refer members to my register of members interests and also declare that I was previously worked in the tourism sector, was a tourism minister and shadow minister, and have taken hospitality from players in this sector previously. Chris and Vicky, thank you. There's so much that you've already mentioned. One area that I would like to look into is how can and should our tourist destinations or individual attractions or individual hotels differentiate themselves? And Chris, you've alluded a little bit to this.
So if you if you imagine a, a tourism resort, similarly beautiful, similarly beach, everything else, what makes the difference in terms of controllable things that either a local authority or an individual hotel can do? And what I'm thinking here is things like, Vicky, you're probably familiar with this. Is it cleanliness? Is it just basic smelliness and customer service? Is it access to toilets, those kind of practical things that can differentiate one place versus another that makes something stand out? Or indeed, what do people complain about? Probably come to you, Vicky.
First of all. I
So if you if you imagine a, a tourism resort, similarly beautiful, similarly beach, everything else, what makes the difference in terms of controllable things that either a local authority or an individual hotel can do? And what I'm thinking here is things like, Vicky, you're probably familiar with this. Is it cleanliness? Is it just basic smelliness and customer service? Is it access to toilets, those kind of practical things that can differentiate one place versus another that makes something stand out? Or indeed, what do people complain about? Probably come to you, Vicky.
First of all. I
10:35
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
think there's a lot of things that you can do to add value to a destination or an attraction. If we're already paying all the money that it costs, which some people for some attractions would deem too expensive. If you can add value by by being kind by the place, being clean, and by people helping you and having maybe more things to do there, especially for the kids, like an app or even just some activities for the kids to do while they're there.
Then I think you can add value in that way. And it doesn't. It's not necessarily all about what there is like what they're directly doing, but they can. There are different ways that they can make it a better attraction and more appealing to people, and make people want to tell their friends about it as well, so that it can either come in through word of mouth or through them sharing it on social media.
Then I think you can add value in that way. And it doesn't. It's not necessarily all about what there is like what they're directly doing, but they can. There are different ways that they can make it a better attraction and more appealing to people, and make people want to tell their friends about it as well, so that it can either come in through word of mouth or through them sharing it on social media.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
If you if you speak to anyone who's been to Disney World in the US or in the one thing they always say, it's so clean. It's and it's we've seen a real big problems in the west of this country, where councils have stopped emptying bins, they have closed public toilets and depending on the private sector to provide toilets and the private sector's like, okay, you pay £0.50 to use it, that causes distress. So I think it's very, very simple.
Divesting car parking to Anpr. People furious about that. You know, you don't you don't pay your you don't buy your ticket within three minutes, £60 fine in the post, rapidly becoming £200. That's what gets people's goat, I think. So it's very easy fix if you've got the money to, to keep the council, the local council on it, keep it clean, keep the facilities open, make sure the toilets are clean, make sure the bins are emptied and make sure the car parking is fair.
Divesting car parking to Anpr. People furious about that. You know, you don't you don't pay your you don't buy your ticket within three minutes, £60 fine in the post, rapidly becoming £200. That's what gets people's goat, I think. So it's very easy fix if you've got the money to, to keep the council, the local council on it, keep it clean, keep the facilities open, make sure the toilets are clean, make sure the bins are emptied and make sure the car parking is fair.
10:37
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Because following the pandemic, we had a bit of a staycation boom and lots of people were saying, look, first time I've had a domestic holiday in ages, it's great, really enjoy it. But then Chris, you've come up with some really quite alarming figures about numbers declining recently. And I think you've mentioned as well value for money and the prices. And it's a very expensive in the UK compared to is that is that the killer? Is it all about the money? Is it all about the cost?
10:38
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
It is and it isn't. We must. We have to look. Yes it is, but it's the same everywhere. I looked at the top complaints in the German media and the Spanish media and the French media to see what they complained about. It's exactly the same. Top of it is the cost of living, the price. The other thing that I thought was uniquely British was the what's called the service window.
The fact that you walk into almost any British pub at 8:00 in the evening and the kitchen's closed, sorry, you can't eat. You end up with, you know, family sitting in cars, eating fish and chips. The same argument in Germany, the same argument in France, the same argument in Spain. So it's across the. So I don't think our travel industry is as bad as we sometimes think it is. I think in many ways it's better than than other countries.
Yeah.
The fact that you walk into almost any British pub at 8:00 in the evening and the kitchen's closed, sorry, you can't eat. You end up with, you know, family sitting in cars, eating fish and chips. The same argument in Germany, the same argument in France, the same argument in Spain. So it's across the. So I don't think our travel industry is as bad as we sometimes think it is. I think in many ways it's better than than other countries.
Yeah.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
I just want to say that I think one of the biggest things in the UK is the state of the waters and everything that Surfers Against Sewage are doing, like the amount of sewage that's getting pumped in. Personally, I think that's huge with this decline in coastal accommodation and coastal holidays, because it's not as fun to go in the sea anymore. Even if they say it's a clean sea, you've still got it in your head that it's where they pump sewage in.
There's a place in Portsmouth like by the pier. That's probably one of the most populated parts of Portsmouth where everyone's coming to the beach. But you can't. You're not meant to swim in that bit year round. It's just condemned. But people still do. And I think that is shown around England as well as recently in Northumberland on a beautiful beach, and then there's just toilet roll everywhere. And I check on the app and it says that you can't and that there's just been a sewage discharge there.
And so I just think that is a huge part of what is affecting coastal tourism in the UK.
There's a place in Portsmouth like by the pier. That's probably one of the most populated parts of Portsmouth where everyone's coming to the beach. But you can't. You're not meant to swim in that bit year round. It's just condemned. But people still do. And I think that is shown around England as well as recently in Northumberland on a beautiful beach, and then there's just toilet roll everywhere. And I check on the app and it says that you can't and that there's just been a sewage discharge there.
And so I just think that is a huge part of what is affecting coastal tourism in the UK.
10:39
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Can I add to that? The it's the difference is, is we have Defra running, doing samples on bathing water throughout the season, 20 samples throughout the season every year. They then rate the beaches. But when you go to a beach and you go to Cromer Beach next year, you'll be looking at. Last year's ratings have three stars, so it was good last summer. There's no. The peril on the British beaches are the CSO discharges, the combined sewage outflow discharges, which can happen at any time.
And as Vicky said, we are now dependent on private sector apps to find that out. Surfers Against Sewage safer river service that is a is a massive turn off for the British coast now.
And as Vicky said, we are now dependent on private sector apps to find that out. Surfers Against Sewage safer river service that is a is a massive turn off for the British coast now.
10:40
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
And that concern of the British public and indeed overseas visitors for the impact of their tourism on the environment and sustainable tourism. It's been going around for a while, but do we need to worry in the UK about overtourism or is that fabricated? Are there any areas that you think Cornwall? Isn't
10:40
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
everyone going to Cornwall when there is so many beautiful places? Last year in the. I'm sorry. This year in the heat waves I went up to Northumberland and the beaches were just. There was barely anyone about where I'd come from. Portsmouth and the roads are blocked and everyone's going to Cornwall and Dorset. And so there's definitely areas like Cornwall where everyone's going, but there's many beautiful parts of the UK that people aren't.
I think so, yeah it is, it is a problem.
I think so, yeah it is, it is a problem.
10:41
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
And how do we deal with that then? We've talked a little bit earlier on about the tourism tax, which personally I'm dead against, because I think we're already very expensive and shouldn't be taxing this sector more. However, there is an argument about it. It looks like it is being brought in. But one of the logic of a tourism tax is to, you know, inhibit overtourism, you know, Venice and so on. Well, well, well, some of the argument for that.
So. Well, the logic overseas is, is the point. I'm saying. So, so but but is that part of something that we should do here in the UK.
So. Well, the logic overseas is, is the point. I'm saying. So, so but but is that part of something that we should do here in the UK.
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10:41
Caroline Dinenage
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Caroline Dinenage
Don't they. I mean you've seen in areas like Barcelona and Venice, there have been sort of almost objections by local residents to the volume of tourists that are coming in. And you kind of begin to sense that a little bit. Now in some parts of Cornwall where, you know, the the resident population is completely overwhelmed in the height of summer by this huge ingress of, of, of visitors, you know, is there, is there anything I mean, it's a, you know, really, really double edged sword because these are areas whose economy is entirely reliant on the visitor economy.
But equally, you know, they can sometimes become absolutely swamped in the summer months, making it unbearable for those who live there all year round. Is there a, I guess, you know, is there a kind of balance where the taxation could be used to try and find a happy medium to that?
But equally, you know, they can sometimes become absolutely swamped in the summer months, making it unbearable for those who live there all year round. Is there a, I guess, you know, is there a kind of balance where the taxation could be used to try and find a happy medium to that?
10:42
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
I think I'd need to think about that more, because as you say, these places want all those people. But then at the same time, and like the Cotswolds and the Lake District, and people are parking on people's gardens and things like that, like it is a problem. But I'm not sure how a tourist tax would help those people.
10:43
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
It need to be a significant tourist tax to deter anyone. As I said, like, you know, £5 extra. That's not going to stop anyone going to Porthmeor Beach. Is it? Insane times. But more to the point is the is looking at seasonality is looking at extending the season at the moment. All the traffic is happening within a few months, three months, maybe four months when everyone's piling into the British seaside or and resorts are the good resorts are working to extend seasonality.
That's that's initiatives within the private sector and within the public sector as well.
That's that's initiatives within the private sector and within the public sector as well.
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10:44
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
I think if we go back to the model at the beginning, the way the British travel is, the big holiday is almost always overseas. It's a package holiday to the med in general. It's not. So they wouldn't be coming to the UK in the summer months anyway. They wouldn't be spending July in Cornwall, although some people are. But. The issue is just to spread it out more across the year.
And if we're taking four holidays in a year, if there was something, if there were, if there was a something that would attract us down to, say, Cornwall or the Gower Peninsula or the Llyn Peninsula in in October, the one thing, one thing that has transformed the British seaside is neoprene, because now you put the kids in a wetsuit, it doesn't matter if it's raining, doesn't matter if it's 12 degrees, they'll have fun all day. That has been transformative in the UK coast, so it's not when.
It's not that we only go to the seaside in the summer when it's sunny.
And if we're taking four holidays in a year, if there was something, if there were, if there was a something that would attract us down to, say, Cornwall or the Gower Peninsula or the Llyn Peninsula in in October, the one thing, one thing that has transformed the British seaside is neoprene, because now you put the kids in a wetsuit, it doesn't matter if it's raining, doesn't matter if it's 12 degrees, they'll have fun all day. That has been transformative in the UK coast, so it's not when.
It's not that we only go to the seaside in the summer when it's sunny.
10:44
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Yeah. And I think this is one of the points that we'll be looking at very carefully here, because I think you've hit the nail on the head is seasonality is the key to British you know, the success of the British tourism. It'll help with productivity, all the problems with people getting a job in the summer and then being unemployed for six months, all of that kind of thing. If we can extend the seasonality, that's the magic thing that.
But how do we do that in the UK? Recognizing the challenges of the weather.
But how do we do that in the UK? Recognizing the challenges of the weather.
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10:45
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Lots to cover. Yeah. But Chris, can I just challenge you again on the tourism because I know what you're saying. £5 probably wouldn't make the difference, but £50 would, given what you said earlier on about people coming to a to a caravan. And then the first thing they do is do the little shop rather than go to the pub bar and restaurant nearby. So, so so I think, I think you're right, a few pounds here wouldn't make the difference.
But there is that magic point at which the tourism tax, if levied in in an appropriate way, could make the difference between people's decision to go. Do you do you think that might be the case?
But there is that magic point at which the tourism tax, if levied in in an appropriate way, could make the difference between people's decision to go. Do you do you think that might be the case?
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
It could also just develop the UK as a low volume, high price destination. That would be another option wouldn't it. Rwanda's done it. Bhutan has done it. They've done it. Botswana has done it fantastically. The Balearic Islands are trying to do it. They're clamping down on STR short term rentals and all inclusive properties, trying to get people to people, to people basically to get people to come and spend more money, fewer people, but spending more money.
10:47
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
And and finally, sorry, chair, is that one of the key things, because we've been obsessed in the UK with domestic tourism or inbound tourism numbers, volume as in 43 million or 100 million overnight stays. Do you think that's the wrong thing? Because I think you've alluded earlier on, it's the length of stay and how much they're spending. That's key.
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10:48
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
The US already are spending a lot of money. Yeah. They they stay for eight days and they spend a fortune. Their biggest complaint though, the one thing you could do is to change is to bring back VAT free shopping, tax free shopping in the UK. That is the biggest complaint of all the foreign markets coming to the UK. Yeah, yeah. And they're going to Madrid. Madrid's London's loss is Madrid's gain.
10:49
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10:49
Caroline Dinenage
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Caroline Dinenage
We did. Yeah we did a couple of times. Can I just sweep up a couple extra questions Chris you mentioned how areas like Galicia have been really, really successful at attracting tourists away from your kind of your main stream Spanish destinations. What could the UK learn from them? How did they do that? I mean, as you say, we've got some amazing coastal locations. Not all of them are the kind of right there in the sort of heartlands of the tourist destination.
So what could we learn from areas like that?
So what could we learn from areas like that?
10:49
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Well, come straight to mind when you ask. That is, do you remember those those great railway posters for the seaside? Even now you see those posters and you think, wow, I actually do want to go to Grimsby or wherever it is Scarborough. It's so bracing it Skegness, Skegness, it's so brazenly, it's as simple as that. It's just to remind people how to have. And it's not going to be private sector because there is no.
The travel industry doesn't doesn't deal with the UK. It would have to be public sector somehow just reminding people how beautiful the UK is, what they're missing. We do it in the news, in our newspaper all the time.
The travel industry doesn't doesn't deal with the UK. It would have to be public sector somehow just reminding people how beautiful the UK is, what they're missing. We do it in the news, in our newspaper all the time.
10:50
10:50
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Espana, the Spanish National Tourist Board, but working in conjunction with Dmos in the regions. Said, let's promote your region. What have you got? And it's worked so, so well, so much so. There was an anti-tourism protest in Asturias two years ago. Which, going back to the. There's no definition of overtourism. It's. If you think it's like Father Christmas, if you think you've got overtourism, then you've got overtourism, but it's not defined there.
The increase in visitors had gone up by 0.02%, and the village decided. Santiago Santillana del Mar decided it had too much tourism and they had a protest and the mayor had to come out and show them the statistics and say it's basically the same as it was two years ago.
The increase in visitors had gone up by 0.02%, and the village decided. Santiago Santillana del Mar decided it had too much tourism and they had a protest and the mayor had to come out and show them the statistics and say it's basically the same as it was two years ago.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
The main points were about the sewage that's ruining coastal tourism, in my view, and just about affordability, especially when you've got children in school, how you're meant to be able to afford to go on holiday in England, because my friends do want to go on holiday in England. It's easier than all the airport drama, but at the same time it's just too expensive and you can get a week abroad for cheaper and guaranteed weather and entertainment for the kids rolled into that.
If you stay in a hotel with a water park, so it's just very difficult.
If you stay in a hotel with a water park, so it's just very difficult.
10:52
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
I wanted to I also wanted to raise the. The state of the state of our bathing waters is such a. Turn off. The comments below. The line for the beach guide this year were basically. I wouldn't go to the British coast. I don't want to get sick. I mean, that's a terrible thing to have. You know, it's absolutely awful. Yeah. To have that reputation for our coast.
We were we have come back to be in terms of bathing water quality again, the sick man of Europe, which was what we were before the the legislation came in in the 1990s. And we've slipped back to that. And it's so detrimental. The one thing to bear in mind is that the great British seaside was born in Scarborough. The seaside holiday began in Scarborough at the spa. Scarborough South Beach is now underrated, but it's dangerous to swim in that water.
It's not even one star. It's unrated. Which is criminal.
We were we have come back to be in terms of bathing water quality again, the sick man of Europe, which was what we were before the the legislation came in in the 1990s. And we've slipped back to that. And it's so detrimental. The one thing to bear in mind is that the great British seaside was born in Scarborough. The seaside holiday began in Scarborough at the spa. Scarborough South Beach is now underrated, but it's dangerous to swim in that water.
It's not even one star. It's unrated. Which is criminal.
10:53
Caroline Dinenage
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Caroline Dinenage
Okay. Very helpful. Very, very good landing of your message. Can I thank you both very much indeed for your time this morning. I will clearly bump into Vicky at some point in the Portsmouth area, but in the meantime, we're going to suspend this panel very briefly while we bring in the next witnesses. Order, order! Welcome to our second panel this morning. We are now joined by Jamie Kristen, the chief executive of Chester Zoo, which is the UK's most visited tourist attraction outside of London.
And Alex Polizzi, the hotelier, businesswoman, television presenter and star of The Hotel Inspector on Channel five. What a CV. Welcome to both of you. I'm going to kick off the questioning with you, please. Jamie, how would you assess the current health of the UK tourism sector?
And Alex Polizzi, the hotelier, businesswoman, television presenter and star of The Hotel Inspector on Channel five. What a CV. Welcome to both of you. I'm going to kick off the questioning with you, please. Jamie, how would you assess the current health of the UK tourism sector?
10:55
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
I think it needs a lot of support. I've been in the tourism sector for the majority of my career, first of all, working in Devon and link to visit Devon and seeing over the last 20 years or so the funding for the tourism sector from the public purse decrease substantially to the point of almost zero. One of my other roles at the moment is I'm chair of Marketing, Cheshire, which is the LVP and DMO for for Cheshire and Warrington.
We're going through devolution at the moment with a mayor next year, which will hopefully maybe change things, but we're getting to a point at the moment where the three local authorities within Cheshire and Warrington have got more or less zero funding for marketing Cheshire, and therefore, as a result of that, the the impact that that organisation can make within the county has diminished massively. And I've seen that happen over the last 20 years. So I think the tourism sector does need a huge boost from government.
It's been supported where it can be by the private sector, but fundamentally, we need some support from government to try and move us back up to where we were 20 odd years ago.
We're going through devolution at the moment with a mayor next year, which will hopefully maybe change things, but we're getting to a point at the moment where the three local authorities within Cheshire and Warrington have got more or less zero funding for marketing Cheshire, and therefore, as a result of that, the the impact that that organisation can make within the county has diminished massively. And I've seen that happen over the last 20 years. So I think the tourism sector does need a huge boost from government.
It's been supported where it can be by the private sector, but fundamentally, we need some support from government to try and move us back up to where we were 20 odd years ago.
10:56
10:57
Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
would argue that it's not so much that we need support. It would just be helpful if they didn't keep swiping the legs out from underneath us. I did, in preparation for coming here, I did a brief analysis of the costs, the rising costs over since the 1st of February 2024, and between business rates, the utility rise, the national insurance rise and the rise in minimum wage between our three little hotels, we have added a staggering £950,000 to our cost base, and I think you will agree that that's a rather difficult sum to absorb.
We're very.
We're very.
10:57
10:57
Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
So my staff costs alone. I can talk to you best about the staff because that's the one I'm involved with most in Sussex are staffing costs are 46% of turnover. And I'm very you know, we do very well. So I think we're increasingly worried about the visitor levy and about what impact that will further have, especially in Cornwall, where so many of our so many of our customers are domestic customers. And I was listening with great interest to the panel before the witnesses before me.
And, you know, certainly in Cornwall, we're passionately against the visitor levy, partly because it it impacts lots of low cost holidays. And and I don't and I would completely disagree that think that we want to only have rich people coming into this country and spending lots of money because what our work, what everyone normal working people supposed to do where they supposed to holiday, do we really want to export them all to Turkey? You know.
And, you know, certainly in Cornwall, we're passionately against the visitor levy, partly because it it impacts lots of low cost holidays. And and I don't and I would completely disagree that think that we want to only have rich people coming into this country and spending lots of money because what our work, what everyone normal working people supposed to do where they supposed to holiday, do we really want to export them all to Turkey? You know.
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10:59
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Well, you know, just to back up a comment that Alex made a few moments ago about our feet being taken from beneath us. Chester Zoo the impact of the increase in National Insurance contributions cost me 600,000 overnight, which is a is a conservation education charity is money that could have been ploughed into into conservation. We we employ 1200 people at Chester Zoo , and a large proportion of those people are on lower pay, a lot of seasonal staff, obviously, because we're very much a seasonal business and very much an organisation that is trying to encourage those people who are not in education, employment or training into, into, into, into work.
And the hospitality and tourism and visitor economy sector is, is, is key for that. So certainly to have a lot of money that's taken away from you overnight is, is pretty difficult for us to be able to, to manage. So that's, you know, just, just to add to that point in terms of the overnight visitor levy, my, one of my other roles within marketing Cheshire, we try to bring an accommodation bid to Chester, to the city of Chester last year, which absolutely failed in the end, which was a disappointment for the city.
It would have generated about 1 to £1.5 million extra for the City of Chester overnight, so we have a quite a pragmatic view of overall. You know, if it's locally, if it's proportionate and simple to administer, then it's something that we'd probably might think is a good idea. But we understand at the moment that there is significant opposition to it. But I do see the benefit of it. If it is managed properly at a local city or county level.
And the hospitality and tourism and visitor economy sector is, is, is key for that. So certainly to have a lot of money that's taken away from you overnight is, is pretty difficult for us to be able to, to manage. So that's, you know, just, just to add to that point in terms of the overnight visitor levy, my, one of my other roles within marketing Cheshire, we try to bring an accommodation bid to Chester, to the city of Chester last year, which absolutely failed in the end, which was a disappointment for the city.
It would have generated about 1 to £1.5 million extra for the City of Chester overnight, so we have a quite a pragmatic view of overall. You know, if it's locally, if it's proportionate and simple to administer, then it's something that we'd probably might think is a good idea. But we understand at the moment that there is significant opposition to it. But I do see the benefit of it. If it is managed properly at a local city or county level.
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11:01
Caroline Dinenage
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Caroline Dinenage
Thank you. Can I just also get a sense from you both on whether you think there is a full understanding of the contribution that tourism businesses make to the local and visitor attractions, as well make to the local economies in the areas that you, that you , that you operate, but also sort of nationally. Do you think the government as a nationally understand the contribution that you make? Alex.
11:01
Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
Of course I'm going to say no. I mean, traditionally, hospitality and retail have employed the largest number of of entry level workforce. And so we are disproportionately affected by the changes that have come in and the changes that are proposed to come in. About the increase in minimum wage for the
11:01
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Wage for the under 21 year olds. Again, there's going to be an enormous leap. I calculated that if it does come in, that's an extra eight and a half grand to my wage bill. And again overnight. So I don't think that there is much. appreciation for the fact that we are actually. encouraging young people. I've got, I think. 5 or 6 young ones who started with me at 15 and are now.
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11:02
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
And who I would like to think I've. contributed and helped to make them upstanding members of the community who are now paying their parents rent, who bought themselves cars, who know how to talk to people, who know how to appear professionally. And that part of my role, my job, I take really seriously and I'm incredibly proud of, but I feel it's rather thankless. Certainly, I've never been thanked for the fact that I assist the first faltering steps upon in work.
And so that is something that I think that we're not sufficiently. appreciated for. There's a lot of chatter about minimum wage, but the truth is, quite often you take people in who are starting their work who have absolutely no idea almost how to tie their own.
And so that is something that I think that we're not sufficiently. appreciated for. There's a lot of chatter about minimum wage, but the truth is, quite often you take people in who are starting their work who have absolutely no idea almost how to tie their own.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
And you're noticing that more and more with the new, new generations. And so you are really taking people on and having to teach them very basic, quite often very basic social skills. As well as technical skills. And it's an honor and a pleasure to do so. But I don't think the. difficulty involved in that the, you . Know,
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11:03
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
area, which you think is is underestimated. Jamie, do you agree? Yeah, absolutely. You know, just to give you some statistics, tourism supports nearly. 1 in 15 jobs. In the UK about. 2.4 million jobs overall. And the sector. generates about. £52 billion in tax revenues. That was a figure from 2024. It's a vitally important sector within Cheshire and Warrington.
£4.3 billion in visitor economy value. 39,000 jobs within the sector and. 59 million visitor days coming into Cheshire and Warrington. So I see it as vitally important just at Chester Zoo. You know, we're. 2.136 million visitors. Last year will be over. 2.2 million visitors this year. You know, in the last panel you were talking a lot about seasonality. A lot of the work that we do at Chester Zoo now is making sure that we've got visitors coming through throughout the year.
We have campaigns going on throughout the year. We're just about to launch a Christmas campaign where we'll see another. 175,000 visitors coming to our zoo on an evening that's supporting further jobs, further.
£4.3 billion in visitor economy value. 39,000 jobs within the sector and. 59 million visitor days coming into Cheshire and Warrington. So I see it as vitally important just at Chester Zoo. You know, we're. 2.136 million visitors. Last year will be over. 2.2 million visitors this year. You know, in the last panel you were talking a lot about seasonality. A lot of the work that we do at Chester Zoo now is making sure that we've got visitors coming through throughout the year.
We have campaigns going on throughout the year. We're just about to launch a Christmas campaign where we'll see another. 175,000 visitors coming to our zoo on an evening that's supporting further jobs, further.
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11:04
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
bringing money into the city of Chester, bringing money into Cheshire and Warrington, people staying overnight, staying for a long weekend, travelling on to North Wales, travelling to Manchester, Liverpool etc. so I think it is vitally important and I. I agree with Alex wholeheartedly, but I don't think . Government
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
look at the fact that you're the most visited tourist attraction outside of London? Oh, I've got a list. Where do I start? You know, we we're an. organization that's been running for 90, 95 years now. We have a fantastic reputation as a conservation education charity. We I said welcome over. 2.1 million visitors every year. 250,000 school children come to us every year. We. We teach young.
conservationists about what they should be doing in the future to help. support their lifestyles, to help support the United Kingdom and the world. And we work in 20 countries around the world. I've just come back from India over the weekend. I'm going out to Uganda next month to help support the work that we do and the projects that we've got worldwide as a conservation education charity. We're there to help stimulate people into being inspired about the natural world and helping them to help.
support and revitalise biodiversity in nature, around, around the world. I think since Covid, especially, people are trying to get out and connect with nature and connect with wellbeing to help support their mental health, to be able to spend time with their families and to get away with away from the stresses and strains of of daily life. And that's what we are there to do. We're the National. Conservation Zoo, and people come and flock to us just because they can see and look and understand things that we do at Chester Zoo, and also to be able to stand what we do and the impact that .
We have
conservationists about what they should be doing in the future to help. support their lifestyles, to help support the United Kingdom and the world. And we work in 20 countries around the world. I've just come back from India over the weekend. I'm going out to Uganda next month to help support the work that we do and the projects that we've got worldwide as a conservation education charity. We're there to help stimulate people into being inspired about the natural world and helping them to help.
support and revitalise biodiversity in nature, around, around the world. I think since Covid, especially, people are trying to get out and connect with nature and connect with wellbeing to help support their mental health, to be able to spend time with their families and to get away with away from the stresses and strains of of daily life. And that's what we are there to do. We're the National. Conservation Zoo, and people come and flock to us just because they can see and look and understand things that we do at Chester Zoo, and also to be able to stand what we do and the impact that .
We have
11:07
Rupa Huq
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Rupa Huq
charity. Thank you very much. Let's move to Ruth, please. Thanks. Thank you both for coming. Your deputy lieutenant as well. Okay. The king's representative. How cool is that? Yeah. Look, you've both painted a very compelling portrait of all the pressures that you're under with the National. Insurance and. utilities and all those things.
I . wondered, Alex, do you. remember the . Caspian
I . wondered, Alex, do you. remember the . Caspian
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Rupa Huq
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Rupa Huq
never reveals her age. No, she's pretty amazing, isn't it? Yeah. And the boy? He must be a fair amount as well. Yeah, just. I've been lobbied by them. And obviously your intervention was key there, so thank you so much. When he comes and sees me and even in the street, his issue is Airbnb. So he says these guys, they're not regulated. They're not subject .
To the same
To the same
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
requirements we are. They're undercutting us. They're killing us. Well, I would say that there's that that's an issue. And then the other thing that we feel very strongly in Cornwall is how unfair it is with the small business rates relief for places that are holiday homes. So from the very moment that you let them consider letting your place, you obviously have to adhere to a whole set, quite rightly, of health and safety regulations.
So you have to refit your house. completely in order to accept visitors. You have to have be able to let your house for. 140 days, and it has to actually be let for 70 days. So you'd only get a decent a more relaxed tax regime if you're. successful in your letting. So anywhere is being. squeezed by people who. basically get better rates on their tax than than an ordinary B&B.
Airbnbs are definitely have definitely affected my.
So you have to refit your house. completely in order to accept visitors. You have to have be able to let your house for. 140 days, and it has to actually be let for 70 days. So you'd only get a decent a more relaxed tax regime if you're. successful in your letting. So anywhere is being. squeezed by people who. basically get better rates on their tax than than an ordinary B&B.
Airbnbs are definitely have definitely affected my.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Partly because employing anyone has become so very hard. So all these small businesses are desperately trying to keep their businesses going, basically as one man bands or in the caspian's play a mother and son band. And it's somewhat thankless. I mean, I don't think many people. understand just how hard the hospitality . Is,
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
So we've got a load of. professionals now trying to support, try and start up the Cornish Cornwall Visitor Alliance. And one of the things they feel very strongly about is that they're being unfairly. penalised because of the second home counts. 200% council tax, because people are now moving to rent out their their. homes to try and reduce that. They just feel like there's, there's not a kind of level playing field.
And that. actually one, one doesn't make an enormous amount of money renting out one's home as a second property. And if you don't manage 70, 70 nights a year, then you're back to your 200% council tax. It's really the. only example I can think of. I mean, an ice cream shop doesn't isn't only an ice cream shop. If it sells a certain number of ice cream cones a year, for example.
So I would suggest that we are unfairly penalised. I would very much like to see that go. And I think it would it would be nice to have a professional register of. properties so that they can be properly. inspected and it can be a more. We're very happy for it to be more. professional side of the.
And that. actually one, one doesn't make an enormous amount of money renting out one's home as a second property. And if you don't manage 70, 70 nights a year, then you're back to your 200% council tax. It's really the. only example I can think of. I mean, an ice cream shop doesn't isn't only an ice cream shop. If it sells a certain number of ice cream cones a year, for example.
So I would suggest that we are unfairly penalised. I would very much like to see that go. And I think it would it would be nice to have a professional register of. properties so that they can be properly. inspected and it can be a more. We're very happy for it to be more. professional side of the.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
But not to treat us all as if, you know, we're , we're taking advantage of a tax regime because it's, it's, it's a, it's a pretty hard picture down there, I would say, particularly in Cornwall. Interesting that you think that there's too many people going down there because my stats show that it's there's a million. There was a million visitors less last year. Yeah. And that, I think is because it in its peak it is rammed exactly what they were saying before.
And there's very little business in the shoulder months. And that is because of terrible transport links.
And there's very little business in the shoulder months. And that is because of terrible transport links.
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11:12
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
And the fact that so many businesses just close. So what do you go to Cornwall for in the. winter when you can barely find a restaurant open? Yeah, it's very hard. Or an attraction open. I mean, there are the sterling ones like the Eden Project, etcetera, etcetera. They've done such a good job in bringing people to Cornwall,
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
think of the regulatory changes? I mean what would you suggest? What would I suggest? Yeah. You know, from a zoo sector. specific point of view, the first thing I'd say is that one of the big issues that we have is that zoos don't fit neatly within existing government policy structures. So we're. regulated quite potent in the news at the moment. We're regulated by Defra in terms of our animal welfare standards and what we do with with our animals and plants within our zoos.
But we're also major visitor attractions. We're employers or education providers. Chester Zoo is a major scientific.
But we're also major visitor attractions. We're employers or education providers. Chester Zoo is a major scientific.
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11:14
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
And we're also drivers of regional economic growth. So that means we we end up sort of like falling between departments, between Defra, a bit of biz bit of DCMs. And therefore we've seen a couple of examples of where we've missed out on opportunities. So one example being the. 1.5 billion cultural and heritage Investment package, which was launched by DCMs in January 2026. We would love if the zoo sector could have been part of that, but we seem to fall between the cracks and that wasn't available.
Going back a few years to Covid also. demonstrated the limitations of existing support structures. So there was. 97% of our revenue comes from our visitors coming through the gates. We don't get any other. funding apart from people who give donations, people who give money to us as sponsors. My zoo costs around about. £1.6 million a month to run. So you can imagine during Covid we were closed for 280 days.
We had zero income coming in, but it was still costing 1.6 million. I had 200 people still working at the zoo because we had. 37,000 animals to feed, to look after, with with zero money coming in . And there was a subsequent zoo animals fund, but about. 85% of that was left unspent because of the the way it was, it was structured. And again, it was an example of where zoos seemed to just fall, fall, fall between the cracks.
So that's one example. The other example is, is gift aid for our day visitors coming to Chester Zoo. The only way that we can gift aid is applied is if they will pay at least. 10% donation on top of their ticket price. And we would love for that 10% to be taken away, or that need for that 10% to be taken away to allow us to be able to claim that gift aid, you know, with.
2.1 million . People coming
Going back a few years to Covid also. demonstrated the limitations of existing support structures. So there was. 97% of our revenue comes from our visitors coming through the gates. We don't get any other. funding apart from people who give donations, people who give money to us as sponsors. My zoo costs around about. £1.6 million a month to run. So you can imagine during Covid we were closed for 280 days.
We had zero income coming in, but it was still costing 1.6 million. I had 200 people still working at the zoo because we had. 37,000 animals to feed, to look after, with with zero money coming in . And there was a subsequent zoo animals fund, but about. 85% of that was left unspent because of the the way it was, it was structured. And again, it was an example of where zoos seemed to just fall, fall, fall between the cracks.
So that's one example. The other example is, is gift aid for our day visitors coming to Chester Zoo. The only way that we can gift aid is applied is if they will pay at least. 10% donation on top of their ticket price. And we would love for that 10% to be taken away, or that need for that 10% to be taken away to allow us to be able to claim that gift aid, you know, with.
2.1 million . People coming
11:16
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
generate another million pounds to us. Why is that, Jamie? Why is why that's that's just the current. legislation states that you can only claim gift aid if you if you donate at least. 10% on top of your ticket price, HMRC. So we would like that taken away. That would allow us to be able to pump another million pounds worth in every year. As you can imagine, if people are booking online as the majority of people book now, it's quite difficult to have a discussion with them .
Online
Online
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Ukraine or whatever? Could you stick that in the we we, we try all the all the legal arguments to make sure that people will try and donate. Yes. But you know, when they're already paying a ticket price and we've heard from the last panel about how, how people are really looking for value for money at the moment, it is it is difficult to be . Able to
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
You know, a school, a classroom with. 250,000 schoolchildren coming to our zoo every year, and we're taking children from primary school all the way through to higher education and teaching about conservation in the main, but also teaching them about how a business operates, teaching them about feed and what we supply our animals, you know, all sorts of . Different
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
How have you found is it overlapping with the things Alex mentioned? Yeah, absolutely. You know, we are a young disruptor. We became a hoteliers last year for the first time. It's pretty scary stuff. We built a hotel on the first day. I thought, what have we done? We you know, we've got 51 Lodge Hotel, which is in one side of the zoo, 16 of those lodges around a paddock with northern giraffe Grevy's zebra blesbok.
So I can open the curtains in the morning and look out onto our animals and actually see our keeping teams do their work in and around the zoo. It allows our visitors to get into the zoo before we open in the morning, and also we allow our visitors to go into the zoo at night and have nocturnal tours of the zoo and see the animals that you wouldn't normally see during the day. So it's been hugely popular, but it is a massive, steep learning curve.
Being a hotelier, you learn all the things that go on in hotels that you don't see or sometimes you see on hotel inspector and but, you know, it's our visitors have loved us for doing it. And it's been one of the things that we've been really keen on doing since Covid and since being closed for 208 days, we've realised that we can't just rely on. admissions and people buying through retail and food and beverage. We need to find other ways of making sure that we can survive in the future.
And opening a hotel is one part of that.
So I can open the curtains in the morning and look out onto our animals and actually see our keeping teams do their work in and around the zoo. It allows our visitors to get into the zoo before we open in the morning, and also we allow our visitors to go into the zoo at night and have nocturnal tours of the zoo and see the animals that you wouldn't normally see during the day. So it's been hugely popular, but it is a massive, steep learning curve.
Being a hotelier, you learn all the things that go on in hotels that you don't see or sometimes you see on hotel inspector and but, you know, it's our visitors have loved us for doing it. And it's been one of the things that we've been really keen on doing since Covid and since being closed for 208 days, we've realised that we can't just rely on. admissions and people buying through retail and food and beverage. We need to find other ways of making sure that we can survive in the future.
And opening a hotel is one part of that.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
say that you're implacably opposed to the overnight levy? I'm. We have a view that. And I've been should go back a step. Cheshire and Warrington are going through accelerated devolution. At the moment we've got a combined authority which has just been set up, and we will have a mayor from next May. And I'm already talking to. We've got two candidates for for mayor at the present time.
We're talking to both of them about overnight visitor levy. One of them is against it. One of them is in. support of it. But the argument I've been making is as long as it's locally led, that the money is pumped directly into. tourism within the area, and it's not there to fund buses or fill.
We're talking to both of them about overnight visitor levy. One of them is against it. One of them is in. support of it. But the argument I've been making is as long as it's locally led, that the money is pumped directly into. tourism within the area, and it's not there to fund buses or fill.
11:20
11:20
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Then I am supportive of it. There is a there is a need for the tourism sector to have a boost, a kick start. We're clearly not going to get it from local authorities or from government in any other way at the present time. And and as I said earlier on, I've been working in this sector for 20, 30 years, initially down in the south west of England, and I've seen government funding and local authority funding.
slowly drift away to being more or less zero. And within Cheshire and Warrington, two of the three local authorities. I think the funding for marketing Cheshire going forward is zero, so it's the only opportunity I think we've got at the moment.
slowly drift away to being more or less zero. And within Cheshire and Warrington, two of the three local authorities. I think the funding for marketing Cheshire going forward is zero, so it's the only opportunity I think we've got at the moment.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
mayoral authority, then I would support it. Okay, good. I would like to agree with you about one key thing that the money, if it comes in, should be ring fenced, because at the moment, I think we're worried that it's going to dribble away in a number of other things. And as we all already pay business rates and have our rubbish collected privately and. ET cetera. ET cetera. I don't really want it to go unspent be spent on that.
I think it depends very much on the area in which you work, whether you're rural or whether you're urban. I think. seasonality is going to make a massive difference. I mean, it's not going to help Cornwall stretch out and be more successful in the colder months. If you're on top of, you know, trying to tempt people down, you're also charging them more for coming still more for coming in October and November than they would than they than they would have paid before.
I think domestic visitors, we have to be very careful because people who holiday. domestically are often the ones on the lower incomes. And I think I mean, I would argue that I don't want my. visitors to have to pay more. I do understand, so I like I understand Barcelona, I understand Venice, it's got some of the wonders of the modern world, and those cities have to manage their numbers very carefully.
But there's a whole great big swathe of Cornwall that is crying out for this not to happen. And so I say it for them. I understand why it . Would
I think it depends very much on the area in which you work, whether you're rural or whether you're urban. I think. seasonality is going to make a massive difference. I mean, it's not going to help Cornwall stretch out and be more successful in the colder months. If you're on top of, you know, trying to tempt people down, you're also charging them more for coming still more for coming in October and November than they would than they than they would have paid before.
I think domestic visitors, we have to be very careful because people who holiday. domestically are often the ones on the lower incomes. And I think I mean, I would argue that I don't want my. visitors to have to pay more. I do understand, so I like I understand Barcelona, I understand Venice, it's got some of the wonders of the modern world, and those cities have to manage their numbers very carefully.
But there's a whole great big swathe of Cornwall that is crying out for this not to happen. And so I say it for them. I understand why it . Would
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11:23
Bayo Alaba
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Bayo Alaba
Brilliant. Thanks. Thank you very much. Let's move on to bio, please. Thank you. Chair. So I want to sort of go on to sort of workforce and skills. And I mean, the irony is not lost on me. I before coming into this place, I, I come from a hospitality background. My background is bars and restaurants. And I think she spoke about sort of business rates, minimum wage, cost of living, national insurance, that kind of stuff.
And Jamie, you spoke about sort of government support as well. So I understand that. And obviously feel free to sort of to sort of advance those cases. But I also want to see if there's anything else that is presenting that that is preventing tourism businesses from recruiting and.
And Jamie, you spoke about sort of government support as well. So I understand that. And obviously feel free to sort of to sort of advance those cases. But I also want to see if there's anything else that is presenting that that is preventing tourism businesses from recruiting and.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Probably 6 or 7 chef. vacancies on our books at any one time. The. I think the most important thing for us as an. organisation is having a fantastic staff engagement, which allows our staff to hopefully to try and stay with us for a long time. Some of our staff at Chester Zoo have been working for us for over 40 years. I've got one member of staff who's been doing the same job for.
47 years. Imagine that, a zoo keeper. So we're lucky within the zoo sector that we don't have that much of an issue in retaining staff, encouraging staff to come to work for us because of the type of organisation that we are, and because of things and the opportunities that we give to our staff. But we do have pockets of areas where it is. particularly difficult. All the skills training that we do is all zoo funded.
We don't get support from government or elsewhere in funding for those particular skills. They're all done through either the British and Irish Association of Zoos and.
47 years. Imagine that, a zoo keeper. So we're lucky within the zoo sector that we don't have that much of an issue in retaining staff, encouraging staff to come to work for us because of the type of organisation that we are, and because of things and the opportunities that we give to our staff. But we do have pockets of areas where it is. particularly difficult. All the skills training that we do is all zoo funded.
We don't get support from government or elsewhere in funding for those particular skills. They're all done through either the British and Irish Association of Zoos and.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Again, pay and pay progression is one of the main reasons why people don't stay within the sector. We're seeing. specifically since Covid many, and again, chefs is a key example. Many people who were chefs who were working in hot kitchens on a weekend at 11, 12:00 at night, I found other careers where they're getting better pay or equal pay, whether or not under the same sorts of pressures than they were before. And that's had a big impact on especially hotels and small, smaller.
businesses and food and beverage businesses. And that continues to be a an issue right through throughout the sector. So yeah, pay and skills are particularly important. And trying
businesses and food and beverage businesses. And that continues to be a an issue right through throughout the sector. So yeah, pay and skills are particularly important. And trying
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
We offer. accommodation to our to our staff, but obviously I can't offer. accommodation to a. 1516 year old. The government. mandated allowances. What I'm allowed to charge my staff, which is. £11.10 a day, which is the grand sum of. £336 per calendar month, don't exactly make it attractive for me to buy housing to, especially in the South east, where housing is very.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Does that affect the visitor experience? Can I jump in? I'm sure, like you, I spend an enormous amount of time and energy training my staff up. I mean, I've made my career talking about customer service, and it's still something I'm completely and utterly passionate about. And I always believe that a . Smile
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Staff, even when you're not at work. Yes, I know. Yeah. But, you know, work should be pleasurable. And I'm very proud in training young people. But they, you know, it is amazing how many people I meet who come out of school barely, I mean, really barely able to read and write after they've left and with very low. expectations for their life. And I think part of the training that I do as much as anything else, is to show them of what they're capable of.
But it is all done in house. Like you, I get no support for it. It is constant. If I was ever going to give up.
But it is all done in house. Like you, I get no support for it. It is constant. If I was ever going to give up.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
the doors for us for for apprenticeships. Yeah. We do have an apprenticeship scheme. I mentioned it a little bit earlier on in various different skills throughout the zoo. It's not massive and we're probably only in its infancy. We probably have around. 20 to 30 apprentices. apprentices every year. That's in a full workforce of 1200 people. But it is something that's growing.
And and what we have found is all of those apprentices have found paid full time work either in Chester Zoo or the zoos around the UK after . Doing that
And and what we have found is all of those apprentices have found paid full time work either in Chester Zoo or the zoos around the UK after . Doing that
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
I think that's partly because they have Chester Zoo on their CV and it's yeah, they've got the top zoo in the UK on their CV. It really helps. Yeah. Just going back to your question around, does does the skill shortage affect the visitor experience? The answer I would say is no. Same as Alex was saying, you know, we work extremely hard in making sure that our staff are trained. Plus we're in a fantastic outdoor environment.
You know, who wouldn't like to come and work in Chester Zoo when you're spending out spending time with. 37,000 animals and plants, and you're in an outdoor environment in 130 acres of beautiful.
You know, who wouldn't like to come and work in Chester Zoo when you're spending out spending time with. 37,000 animals and plants, and you're in an outdoor environment in 130 acres of beautiful.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Being looked after by the. organisation that you work for and being trained and have that that job on your CV. We we also have very luckily, we've got Chester University in the city and we do find our Chester University students come as fresh as in year one and have seasonal jobs with us across the three years. So we do get a high degree of returning seasonal staff coming back to us year in, year out, which actually does help us means we don't have to retrain people as much as we do have had to do in the past.
But no, I think our, you know, our our vision engagement scores are very high, both in the hotel and within the zoo. Although we are working like swans below . The
But no, I think our, you know, our our vision engagement scores are very high, both in the hotel and within the zoo. Although we are working like swans below . The
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Bayo Alaba
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Bayo Alaba
The sector carries the load does quite a lot. Alex, you alluded to it as well earlier and yourself just now. Jamie, how hard is it to sort of convey or to get across the sort of long term career objectives, the long term pathway? It can be a. sustainable long term? I mean, obviously you've got someone who's been at your organisation for 47 years,
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Zookeepers do it because they're extremely passionate about animals. They they spend more time with their animals that they look after. They do with their families. They take their laptops home at night and open their laptops and look at the animals on CCTV overnight. So there's, there's massive passion for, for, for the role that they do. And they do it for passion, for that passion rather than for salary and for progression. As I said earlier, all of our.
230 Zookeeping staff and conservationists at Chester Zoo all have a at least a bachelor's or a master's degree in animal behavior or zoology, which is obviously done before they've come to Chester Zoo. We provide training for them as they move through their career and through the ranks, but many of them just stay doing the job that they first came to do , because that's what they want to do. And they're not interested in management and not not interested in passion, in passion like that.
And many of the people that we employ as. conservationists and animal keepers do it because they prefer animals more than they do people. So they're not particularly good people , managers sometimes. At the other side of the.
230 Zookeeping staff and conservationists at Chester Zoo all have a at least a bachelor's or a master's degree in animal behavior or zoology, which is obviously done before they've come to Chester Zoo. We provide training for them as they move through their career and through the ranks, but many of them just stay doing the job that they first came to do , because that's what they want to do. And they're not interested in management and not not interested in passion, in passion like that.
And many of the people that we employ as. conservationists and animal keepers do it because they prefer animals more than they do people. So they're not particularly good people , managers sometimes. At the other side of the.
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Speaker 1
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think that they are not touted enough. And it is still. considered a. rather a last choice career and not a profession. So what I always say is, you know, I still love it. I still love it because it allows you to interact with people and to engage with people and to participate in joyous moments in people's lives. And I think partly I have to, I feel like one of my jobs is to lead by example.
You know, if I show the pleasure that I take in my work, it's a lot easier for everyone around me to take pleasure in what they're doing in their work. I think I spend an awful lot of time. encouraging people to think about their next steps, what their next want to do, how I can skill them up, what they need to work on. There's a lot of employee. engagement and , and I'm always thrilled when someone moves on from me to a kind of high flying job.
But I have quite a few staff rather like you who. actually are quite happy, just have no. responsibility and want to come in and want to do their eight hour shift as a waitress, serving breakfast and tidying up afterwards, and then go home and live a life. The ones who want to progress. I mean, there's enormous.
You know, if I show the pleasure that I take in my work, it's a lot easier for everyone around me to take pleasure in what they're doing in their work. I think I spend an awful lot of time. encouraging people to think about their next steps, what their next want to do, how I can skill them up, what they need to work on. There's a lot of employee. engagement and , and I'm always thrilled when someone moves on from me to a kind of high flying job.
But I have quite a few staff rather like you who. actually are quite happy, just have no. responsibility and want to come in and want to do their eight hour shift as a waitress, serving breakfast and tidying up afterwards, and then go home and live a life. The ones who want to progress. I mean, there's enormous.
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Bayo Alaba
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Bayo Alaba
Possibilities in this industry, and I'm always pointing them out to people. And would you say just finally, would you say you said you spend a lot of time in schools, which is one thing. colleges encouraging, you know, letting people know about the pathway to sustaining a career. Would you . Suggest that
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
also. conversations can and should be had with parents as well? That is very difficult. I, you know, I was you know, if you look at the old model, the old English model, the first son inherited, the second son went into the army, the third son went into the church. And the fourth idiot child goes into hospitality. I always feel, you know, it is not considered a viable career for one's children.
And yet here I am.
And yet here I am.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
And I know lots and lots of clever. multi-talented people who are doing this because it's a actually, it's a fantastic career to be in. But I have an uphill struggle persuading parents of that, who all say the hours, the pay, the you know, there's still a big hangover from the bad old days when you did a lot of overtime. You weren't paid for it. Wages were really terrible. I mean, you definitely earn a living wage.
Now, a lot of my staff, a lot of my young staff are buying their first homes at 26. You know. So it is. possible to have a really good life in hospitality. But .
Now, a lot of my staff, a lot of my young staff are buying their first homes at 26. You know. So it is. possible to have a really good life in hospitality. But .
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Jeff Smith
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Jeff Smith
Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Jeff. Please. Thanks. Good morning. A question for both of you. There was some research from VisitBritain that said. 57% of . International. Visitors could not imagine what there was to see outside London. As as people who, you know, have a focus outside London, how can the UK encourage more international. visitors . To
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
explore. destinations outside London and and domestic visitors as well? Okay. I think I mentioned a while ago we regard ourselves as the National Conservation Zoo, although officially we're not the National Conservation Zoo at the present time, and we would love government to be able to. support the fact that the the UK zoo was in the north of England and not necessarily in London and the South east.
And we're lucky. You know, number ten North is literally 30 odd miles away from . Chester and taking those. opportunities to be able to move and have a national asset in the north of England, I think would be a fantastic step forward. Now we we have all the proof points that we think we need to become National Conservation Zoo. We are leading. We have the most visitors coming to us.
We're here today giving evidence at this select committee. So to be able to have some really key. assets that are.
And we're lucky. You know, number ten North is literally 30 odd miles away from . Chester and taking those. opportunities to be able to move and have a national asset in the north of England, I think would be a fantastic step forward. Now we we have all the proof points that we think we need to become National Conservation Zoo. We are leading. We have the most visitors coming to us.
We're here today giving evidence at this select committee. So to be able to have some really key. assets that are.
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know, whether if I put on. stargazing or guided walks or. foraging anything like that, people are really, really interested and we have some of the most wonderful natural environments. I mean, I'm slightly spoilt because I sit in the South Downs National Park, which is completely wonderful. Ends by Dartmoor, which is all completely wonderful. I've got the Cornish coastline, which is absolutely wonderful. I think it is a question of banging on about it.
I mean, certainly people who come to me in Sussex are constantly saying, goodness, I had no idea that East Sussex had so much to offer. And, and so I think, you know, you we it's it's about us talking to our customers as much as possible. I had a group of.
I mean, certainly people who come to me in Sussex are constantly saying, goodness, I had no idea that East Sussex had so much to offer. And, and so I think, you know, you we it's it's about us talking to our customers as much as possible. I had a group of.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
soul. And I think it does need to be banged on about. Okay. I think one of the one of the big problems that we do have, and Alex mentioned it earlier, is around transport and transport infrastructure. Chester is just . Over. Two hours north of London on the train, supposedly supposedly Avanti West Coast is the training provider, thankfully is going to be nationalised next March. But we've had constant issues.
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Jeff Smith
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Jeff Smith
to other parts of the UK, a lot easier than we do currently, then that would really help. Took the words out of my mouth. That was going to be my next question, actually. And it's not just about those kind of main routes, but it's also about the last mile, I think, as well, which has been an issue that's been. identified to what to what. extent are attractions and accommodation .
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
infrastructure? About zero. Not at all. Yeah. 90 odd percent of our visitors come by car. We know we're trying to reduce our scope three carbon emissions, as you'd expect with an environmental charity virtually impossible. You know, the majority of the people that come to a place like Chester Zoo are families. There's absolutely no way they're going to get onto public transport to try and get to the zoo and back because of that last mile issue, as well as as well as the south north connectivity, it's the east west connectivity, which is pretty poor as well, you know, trying to get from Manchester to Chester or to Liverpool,
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
and not particularly pleasant either. No. Is that your experience? My experience Cornwall is a very tricky one. I mean, the last few times I've gone to Cornwall , I've been chucked off the train. unceremoniously at a much earlier point in the journey and on one occasion with a, you know, sharing a carriage with 40. schoolchildren and their poor teachers who were trying to wonder how on earth they were going to get them home.
Clearly. Sussex has obviously we had the. derailment at Lewes, and I'd like to. charitably assume that some of the problems we're having at the moment may still be connected to that. But again, I would say that. probably obviously, I have much fewer visitor numbers than you, but at least. 90% of my hotel guests come by car, partly because they come, they want to explore the . Area,
Clearly. Sussex has obviously we had the. derailment at Lewes, and I'd like to. charitably assume that some of the problems we're having at the moment may still be connected to that. But again, I would say that. probably obviously, I have much fewer visitor numbers than you, but at least. 90% of my hotel guests come by car, partly because they come, they want to explore the . Area,
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Can weather digital weather information be improved to support you? Okay, the issue is that many people coming to Chester Zoo is a largely an outdoor attraction. All those people going to indoor attractions in reverse will check a weather app before they come around. About 70% of people we believe are. The research has shown, will check a weather app. If you look at your BBC weather app, it tends to give a single icon as you go into it, which probably I'm guessing today might haven't looked at London .
Today,
Today,
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
From now onwards or from 12:00 onwards, it's going to be pure sunshine. That's that that's the issue that that icon will pick up maybe 20 minutes of showers at 8:00 at night, which has no bearing to what's going on during the day. And the research that we've had, say, about. between 42 and 45% of people that look at those icons will change their mind because of what that major icon says, which can have a massive effect to visit attractions, to hoteliers, to indoor attractions as well.
In the reverse , on what people decide to do on that day at Chester Zoo, we we estimate the worst case examples that we've seen could cost us about. £137,000 in a single day. In terms of visitor income, what we would like to see is a new model which there's. There is a.
In the reverse , on what people decide to do on that day at Chester Zoo, we we estimate the worst case examples that we've seen could cost us about. £137,000 in a single day. In terms of visitor income, what we would like to see is a new model which there's. There is a.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Which allows the icon to show the weather at four points during that day. First thing in the morning, around lunchtime, mid afternoon, and the evening, which is really simple to see rather than just this big one icon. People don't scroll down to look at what the the detail is below that. They will just look at that single icon and make the decision on what they're going to do that day. And we have had interest from DCMs on this, and we have had over.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
From around the UK back our campaign. We had a weather summit with the Met Office in early in early summer. Unfortunately, it was the start of the heat wave. So you know, the there was only one weather so slightly difficult to try and explain to them, but we do want to continue with that campaign. We do want to get further support to get those icons changed, to make it a lot easier for people to see what the weather .
Actually
Actually
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Speaker 6
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Speaker 6
And last but not least birthday boy Nigel. Thank you. I'm going to talk a little bit now about government strategy and government support. And Alex, you came in at the very beginning and you said nobody's ever thanked you. So. So I'm going to correct that today and say thank you, Alex, to you for creating opportunities for so many young people. And also Jamie and I've visited Chester Zoo many times.
Your team are absolutely fantastic. And I think this is the point you both contribute towards and the millions of others who work in tourism.
Your team are absolutely fantastic. And I think this is the point you both contribute towards and the millions of others who work in tourism.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
back? Alex, maybe you first, I really don't. I just I feel like I feel like there's a perception that. hospitality in general is something that you can turn upside down and shake till the, you know, or squeeze until the pip squeak. You know, I have no. expectation of there to be a vat cut to allow us to compete properly with Italy, France, Germany, any of the other European countries that have got.
10% or lower VAT. But I mean, there have been a whole series of things that that I really feel that were mistaken. And for me, the top of that was the National Insurance hike that has made, you know, a. 700 grand difference to my bottom line. And I don't know, I don't want to have it taken away with one hand and given back with the other. I think.
10% or lower VAT. But I mean, there have been a whole series of things that that I really feel that were mistaken. And for me, the top of that was the National Insurance hike that has made, you know, a. 700 grand difference to my bottom line. And I don't know, I don't want to have it taken away with one hand and given back with the other. I think.
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Speaker 6
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Speaker 6
you know, an. aspirational career. Yeah. And Alex, you've also mentioned earlier on about you get up at seven in the morning, probably earlier than that, you're providing breakfast. I've seen this a lot in my constituency as I've been travelling around the country as well. You've been bombarded with all of these additional taxes. And one thing I'm worried about, because you're coming here all positive, energetic, absolutely fantastic to see.
But all of these taxes coming your way and you're working all hours. God send. I'm worried that a lot of people in the . Sector are not
But all of these taxes coming your way and you're working all hours. God send. I'm worried that a lot of people in the . Sector are not
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
probably I don't write myself. And do you think that's quite common? Moonlight as a television presenter, to be allowed to indulge my hobby as a hospitality provider, I think that's really common because, you know, I want to make sure I've borrowed money to put in money to, you know, to, to develop a project. Obviously, I want to pay back the bank. I need to keep up. I never just pay minimum wage.
I want to pay my, my wonderful people as well as I possibly can. I want to enhance the visitor. experience to whatever degree I can. I mean, there are lots more things that are higher priority on my list than paying myself. Now I'm fortunate I have a secondary career and I can do that. But you know, I've just been looking at the casting tapes for the next sort of hotel inspector. And I mean, people are.
I want to pay my, my wonderful people as well as I possibly can. I want to enhance the visitor. experience to whatever degree I can. I mean, there are lots more things that are higher priority on my list than paying myself. Now I'm fortunate I have a secondary career and I can do that. But you know, I've just been looking at the casting tapes for the next sort of hotel inspector. And I mean, people are.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Absolutely desperate. And, you know, it's no surprise. It's a well touted fact. How many pubs close every year? Over 300 pubs close a year in the UK. And I'm afraid that's also going to be true of some of the bed and breakfasts and small. hospitality providers. And that will be a shame. because there's a lot more . People
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
themselves minimum wage. Yeah. So there's a hidden danger there. There's definitely hidden costs. And I that's something I feel very strongly about for small business owners. I mean, I'm one of the very I'm a successful one. You know, I've managed to pay back the bank. I've managed to do all the things that I want to do. But you see people who've put their families, their health and their, you know, their, their, their, their security on the line to embark and to try and do something.
And who are absolutely desperate.
And who are absolutely desperate.
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Speaker 6
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Speaker 6
And I see more and more of those every year. Yeah. And, and then, Jamie, you've mentioned as well some. frustrations about dealing with government and that you're falling between the cracks. And this, again, is something that's a perennial problem, I think, with tourism and. hospitality straddles multiple government departments. Do you think it would be best for the sector if DCMs didn't exist and you were just part of business or another government.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Only the animal welfare section of what we do in zoo, which is a big part of what we do, is within Defra and as zoos become more and more commercial because they have to , to be able to fund what they do to be able to pay for the increasing utility costs. You can't put a jumper on a Komodo dragon and just reduce the, you know, the temperature in that particular building that we have to become more and more commercial.
So to be able to have a, a better footing or a stronger footing within DCMs for zoos, I think would be much, much better. And so we would like to sit within one department totally rather than being able to be spread out across other other departments. So we do think, you know, the forthcoming national visitor economy strategy could really help us by taking into account how diverse we are as as a sector and to take into account how we sit across tourism, conservation, education, science and employment.
We know we don't sit into one fully, but we'd much rather a a government department said, right, we'll pick zoos up and we'll, we'll deal with them in totality from a from a your original question around. support and what government think around zoos. We do get a lot of support from local government, from our council, from our MP who happens to be sat in the room today and from others. So, you know, locally we get lots and lots of support because they see.
firsthand what we do as an organisation. They've come to Chester Zoo and you and you have and Jeff, you've been as well, and you've actually seen on the ground that what we do. And we would say, you know, we try and encourage every MP and everyone involved in government to come and see what we do. Only when you're actually on the ground seeing the . Fantastic work we
So to be able to have a, a better footing or a stronger footing within DCMs for zoos, I think would be much, much better. And so we would like to sit within one department totally rather than being able to be spread out across other other departments. So we do think, you know, the forthcoming national visitor economy strategy could really help us by taking into account how diverse we are as as a sector and to take into account how we sit across tourism, conservation, education, science and employment.
We know we don't sit into one fully, but we'd much rather a a government department said, right, we'll pick zoos up and we'll, we'll deal with them in totality from a from a your original question around. support and what government think around zoos. We do get a lot of support from local government, from our council, from our MP who happens to be sat in the room today and from others. So, you know, locally we get lots and lots of support because they see.
firsthand what we do as an organisation. They've come to Chester Zoo and you and you have and Jeff, you've been as well, and you've actually seen on the ground that what we do. And we would say, you know, we try and encourage every MP and everyone involved in government to come and see what we do. Only when you're actually on the ground seeing the . Fantastic work we
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Speaker 6
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Speaker 6
do, you can get a better understanding of how significant we are. Well, we're running out of time today, but we'd really appreciate what you would like to see in the strategy, because the strategy does seem to be a little bit focused on inbound as opposed to domestic tourism. And that's something, Alex, you spoke about earlier on as well, the importance of domestic, but also the reason why I was raising that question is the reality is the budget of DCMs is tiny.
1.3 trillion government spending and the DCMs budget is 7 billion. But it's not because 4 billion of that is BBC licence fee. Therefore. Visitbritain's budget and Visitengland's.
1.3 trillion government spending and the DCMs budget is 7 billion. But it's not because 4 billion of that is BBC licence fee. Therefore. Visitbritain's budget and Visitengland's.
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Speaker 6
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Speaker 6
You know, is is tiny and what you would like to see from them, recognising they've got limited resources as well is really key. They do a really great job with tiny budgets compared to what we see around the world. And I think, you know, as the report will be, writing as well is quite important to suggest to government what we'd like to see in there. So please, do . You
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Rupa Huq
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Rupa Huq
feedback coming. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Yeah. I just wondered throughout Covid, I remember there were debates about having a dedicated. hospitality minister because that sector was so done over. Would you advocate I know Chester Zoo is a bit different because it straddles so many things, but a . Dedicated
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
see any structural change that would be helpful? Well, I've actually just applied to get on to the board of the tourist authority. So British Tourist Authority. So for that very reason, really, I do think there is some confusion around what VisitBritain does, what. VisitEngland does, what Lvefs do, what Dmos do. It just needs to be made a lot more simple. A for us as. employers and as .
People working
People working
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Caroline Dinenage
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Caroline Dinenage
have at the moment. You know, not falling between those cracks. Yeah. Thanks. I mean, really, I think that the professionalisation of the industry is something that I've been banging on about for a long, long time. You know, we've got T levels, we've got this, you know, we've got apprenticeships and nothing seems to even touch the surface. And I honestly believe that it's about time that we had a centre of excellence in this country, that we could all therefore be proud of people who are in this industry and contributing so much.
Thank you.
Thank you.
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