Women and Equalities Committee
Wednesday 14th October 2026
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14:20
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Good afternoon and welcome to the Women and Equalities Select Committee. And can I also just say at the outset, this is my first in the chair as chair of the Women and Equalities Select Committee, and I'd like to say a huge thank you to my predecessor, Sarah Owen, for her phenomenal, phenomenal service and fantastic leadership of this committee, and she'll be missed. But I'm extremely excited to be stepping into her shoes. Today we are holding a session for our inquiry into routes, into non-participatory roles in sport for girls and women.
And, you know, in the evidence we've heard so far, we can see that women are underrepresented in those roles and facing many barriers and sometimes overt discrimination. So we're really looking forward to hearing from our first panel today. And we will hear from Flo Lloyd Hughes, who is football broadcaster and founder of The Cutback, Natalie Perks, who is a former BBC sport correspondent, and. Fiona Thomas, a women's sport reporter at The Telegraph. Thank you so much, all of you, for coming.
We're really grateful to you for giving up your time, and we're looking forward to asking you questions this afternoon. I'm going to hand over, first of all to Rachel to kick us off. Rachel.
And, you know, in the evidence we've heard so far, we can see that women are underrepresented in those roles and facing many barriers and sometimes overt discrimination. So we're really looking forward to hearing from our first panel today. And we will hear from Flo Lloyd Hughes, who is football broadcaster and founder of The Cutback, Natalie Perks, who is a former BBC sport correspondent, and. Fiona Thomas, a women's sport reporter at The Telegraph. Thank you so much, all of you, for coming.
We're really grateful to you for giving up your time, and we're looking forward to asking you questions this afternoon. I'm going to hand over, first of all to Rachel to kick us off. Rachel.
14:21
14:21
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Yeah, I think it's very different depending on what landscape you look at. I think if you look at kind of legacy media in the broadest sense, so print newspapers, there's not strong roots in it's predominantly older, probably white male terrain. And that's probably represented on press boxes, but also big awards, recognizing and acknowledging the achievements of, of those in sports press. But also, I think if you were to walk into many newsrooms, you would also see that.
So I think there's that kind of reality of numbers actually in those roles. But then I also think there's a perception that impacts the wider interest in those roles. So I think personally, as someone who does, you know, chat to young people, go into schools and deliver workshops and talk to them about the jobs that they might be interested in this landscape, a lot of it is focused on content creation and the digital world, and not necessarily traditional media roles.
And there's obviously huge opportunity in the growing digital world that we live in, in terms of how you can be part of the wider sports media conversation and get jobs that way. But I think when when you look at sort of traditional media, I think young people probably don't see it as a landscape for them anymore.
So I think there's that kind of reality of numbers actually in those roles. But then I also think there's a perception that impacts the wider interest in those roles. So I think personally, as someone who does, you know, chat to young people, go into schools and deliver workshops and talk to them about the jobs that they might be interested in this landscape, a lot of it is focused on content creation and the digital world, and not necessarily traditional media roles.
And there's obviously huge opportunity in the growing digital world that we live in, in terms of how you can be part of the wider sports media conversation and get jobs that way. But I think when when you look at sort of traditional media, I think young people probably don't see it as a landscape for them anymore.
14:22
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
I would very much echo what flow has basically said, like, I think for women in the industry who cover women's sport on a regular basis, they're probably mixing with press packs who are very much more gender diverse than, you know, press packs that solely cover men's sport. And I think it's getting harder for not just women, but for young people in general to break into, you know, the media, the sports media industry, because of the rise of AI.
And lots of people are sort of masquerading as journalists these days, but in reality, they are content creators on social media.
And lots of people are sort of masquerading as journalists these days, but in reality, they are content creators on social media.
14:23
14:23
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
I'm obviously a lot older than flow. Yeah. So my experience sort of lasts two decades working in sports broadcasting. And when I started, I was very much one of one, maybe one of two in a, in a press box and a press room. So you learn to, you have to be a certain type of woman to then rub along with this very male press pack. Yeah. I think now there's a landscape in certainly in print and, you know, print journalism where they're losing headcount rather than adding people.
So it becomes a lot harder to break into those traditional legacy media roles. But there is there are a lot more women now in press boxes. You know, I will go into a press box or go into a press conference and there'll be maybe five, six women. We all know each other. Of course, we all talk, but that feels more positive. And when you go to events, there are a lot more of us, and that does feel like a step forward.
But equally, when it comes to what type of women are now getting those roles and what type of women are coming in, that does feel like a bit of a step back because journalism itself isn't quite what it was. And so if you're coming through a degree, for example, and you're a woman that's taking a journalism degree and you want to work in sport, what the advice I would give now to women is very different to the advice I would give women a decade ago on getting your getting your journalism degree and, you know, working really hard and going into a print room and doing your work experience, it's just not the same way in anymore.
So it's become better and harder at the same time.
So it becomes a lot harder to break into those traditional legacy media roles. But there is there are a lot more women now in press boxes. You know, I will go into a press box or go into a press conference and there'll be maybe five, six women. We all know each other. Of course, we all talk, but that feels more positive. And when you go to events, there are a lot more of us, and that does feel like a step forward.
But equally, when it comes to what type of women are now getting those roles and what type of women are coming in, that does feel like a bit of a step back because journalism itself isn't quite what it was. And so if you're coming through a degree, for example, and you're a woman that's taking a journalism degree and you want to work in sport, what the advice I would give now to women is very different to the advice I would give women a decade ago on getting your getting your journalism degree and, you know, working really hard and going into a print room and doing your work experience, it's just not the same way in anymore.
So it's become better and harder at the same time.
14:25
14:25
14:25
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
I think to a certain extent, yes, there has been a small uptick in the number of women specific roles when it comes to, you know, digital and print. But I would I would argue that everyone talks about this broadcast boom. And I think there's there's been a print lag when it comes, you know, the, the coverage of, of women's sport and how much it how much coverage it gets these days. I mean, you know, you pick up any newspaper out on the shelves today, flick, flick through the the back pages and I will guarantee you that there are a couple with that of female bylines.
And that's, that's been the, that's been the, the same for, for quite a while now.
And that's, that's been the, that's been the, the same for, for quite a while now.
14:26
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Oh, just to jump in, I would say, yeah. I mean, in the last four years, you'd see you've seen a huge shift in that probably before the Women's Euros in 2022, we weren't at a stage where there was a national correspondent for women's football at every single newspaper. Now we've got to that stage. Some newspapers even have two. So that is huge progress. But that doesn't necessarily filter out across the board. And as Fiona has mentioned, you know, like men's Premier League football still dictates a vast majority of coverage.
And, you know, I know the Women's Sport Trust, I think last week just released their most recent visibility report. So they're constantly crunching the numbers on how much coverage women's sport is actually getting around, whether that's newspaper or viewing figures. But I think so much of that also relies on kind of how the market's looking. And obviously for a lot of legacy media, they're having to shift their focus to more kind of digital element, and therefore sometimes women's sport or more women getting to those roles like might suffer.
But I think it's also there's, I think there's sometimes a, like unfortunate assumption that women's sport and women working within women's sport and media roles are the same. And I think like, I wouldn't speak for the others on the panel, but sometimes you feel like you're necessarily, you know, fighting that assumption that they often do go hand in hand, but they're also separate in that there are lots of women who just work predominately in the men's game.
And that was the case for me, probably up until the Women's Euros, where it just shifted because there was more media spend going towards women's football. But up until then, you know, pretty much all my work was in the men's game.
And, you know, I know the Women's Sport Trust, I think last week just released their most recent visibility report. So they're constantly crunching the numbers on how much coverage women's sport is actually getting around, whether that's newspaper or viewing figures. But I think so much of that also relies on kind of how the market's looking. And obviously for a lot of legacy media, they're having to shift their focus to more kind of digital element, and therefore sometimes women's sport or more women getting to those roles like might suffer.
But I think it's also there's, I think there's sometimes a, like unfortunate assumption that women's sport and women working within women's sport and media roles are the same. And I think like, I wouldn't speak for the others on the panel, but sometimes you feel like you're necessarily, you know, fighting that assumption that they often do go hand in hand, but they're also separate in that there are lots of women who just work predominately in the men's game.
And that was the case for me, probably up until the Women's Euros, where it just shifted because there was more media spend going towards women's football. But up until then, you know, pretty much all my work was in the men's game.
14:28
14:28
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
I think they're hugely important. I belong to with women in football probably do as well. And that is an invaluable network of women that started out as as a few women who were just fed up in, in a pub and had a conversation, and it's now grown to thousands of people that work in sport, women that work in sport. And also, I think we have to talk about the importance of male allies as well, because sometimes it can come across, as you know, perhaps that men are difficult or men are the barriers to.
And actually, yes, I've obviously experienced that in my 25 years, but I've also experienced brilliant male allies, men that absolutely want to make a difference. They know they need. There is a need to employ more women and bring more women through. So I think, you know, we have to acknowledge that as well. Going back to what you were saying, you know, there's a saying in news that if it bleeds, it leads. And when it comes to sport, it's it's Premier League football.
And so it often leaves very little space for anything else. And women's sport certainly does get a bit of a raw deal when it comes to coverage. Unless they're winning or doing something exceptional, it's probably not going to get on. And that is the reality. And when it comes to this digital space that we're now living in, if people aren't clicking on it, then it's perceived as people aren't interested in it. So it gets pushed down the agenda.
And actually, yes, I've obviously experienced that in my 25 years, but I've also experienced brilliant male allies, men that absolutely want to make a difference. They know they need. There is a need to employ more women and bring more women through. So I think, you know, we have to acknowledge that as well. Going back to what you were saying, you know, there's a saying in news that if it bleeds, it leads. And when it comes to sport, it's it's Premier League football.
And so it often leaves very little space for anything else. And women's sport certainly does get a bit of a raw deal when it comes to coverage. Unless they're winning or doing something exceptional, it's probably not going to get on. And that is the reality. And when it comes to this digital space that we're now living in, if people aren't clicking on it, then it's perceived as people aren't interested in it. So it gets pushed down the agenda.
14:30
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Yeah. Just on that point, I, I think women's sport is now at the stage where it tends to coverage tends to spike around major events such as. I mean, that's very true for football, rugby, cricket. And yeah, it's it's not too dissimilar from Olympic coverage really. It's very hard, I think, to sustain a kind of consistent cut through during regular seasons, because I guess leagues like the Premier League are still so, so dominant.
You know, football is king. It always will be. But I know certainly from a domestic perspective, you know, at the Telegraph we do cover women's sport on a on a weekly basis from, you know, the run of the mill season. But it is very difficult to, to, to, to cut through, you know, during, during the regular months when there isn't a sort of a World Cup or a euros happening.
You know, football is king. It always will be. But I know certainly from a domestic perspective, you know, at the Telegraph we do cover women's sport on a on a weekly basis from, you know, the run of the mill season. But it is very difficult to, to, to, to cut through, you know, during, during the regular months when there isn't a sort of a World Cup or a euros happening.
14:31
14:31
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
And just before I come to Nadia, I was really interested in your point there that you made that you have to fight against this assumption that just because there's more interest in women's sport, that is going to mean there are more women in in sports roles. So I just wanted to invite the panel to sort of say anything further about that and why you think that might be and, you know, why. Why you wouldn't see an increase in the number of women working in sport if there has also been that expansion of interest in women's sport?
14:31
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Yeah, I think a lot of it comes down to the realities of the economies of the media landscape. Obviously, we're at present witnessing, you know, huge cost cutting of the BBC and changes that have been made in relation to that. And I think women's sport and minority sports in general actually often bear the brunt of that. And I think that's the unfortunate reality of the ecosystem. And, you know, even the BBC itself, its coverage around the WSL, for example, short window of pre-match, short window of post-match.
It's not necessarily always guaranteed to be on linear BBC one or BBC two. And that over time, takes its toll around the number of eyeballs that are going to see that. Obviously, you know, things around number of contracts that can be awarded to pundits to be on that coverage, etc.. So I think all of that is operating within the challenges of the wider media landscape that we're seeing. And actually, the reality is, very few major sports in this country, apart from the Premier League, have the opportunity to actually be as kind of aggressive in the media market.
Everyone else is actually fighting for eyeballs, whether that's men's cricket, men's rugby against that beast. So I think there's not always a runoff. And I think that kind of wider digital view on things means people are trying to, in a way, it's been democratized it because you can jump in and you can tell those stories, but it's probably removed the kind of allowance of the legacy media to, to do that.
It's not necessarily always guaranteed to be on linear BBC one or BBC two. And that over time, takes its toll around the number of eyeballs that are going to see that. Obviously, you know, things around number of contracts that can be awarded to pundits to be on that coverage, etc.. So I think all of that is operating within the challenges of the wider media landscape that we're seeing. And actually, the reality is, very few major sports in this country, apart from the Premier League, have the opportunity to actually be as kind of aggressive in the media market.
Everyone else is actually fighting for eyeballs, whether that's men's cricket, men's rugby against that beast. So I think there's not always a runoff. And I think that kind of wider digital view on things means people are trying to, in a way, it's been democratized it because you can jump in and you can tell those stories, but it's probably removed the kind of allowance of the legacy media to, to do that.
14:33
14:33
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Anything I would add is that sort of from from my perspective as a broadcaster, I don't think you have to be a woman to cover women's sport. There would often be, and this is industry wide. I'm not speaking as just a former BBC person, but industry wide, there's a you know, you you put put your woman on it. And it's lovely to be able to go and cover women's sport. And I've done it my whole career and it's brilliant.
But I don't think, you know, you're maybe slightly doing it a disservice if you don't put your sports editor on a woman's story. If it's big enough, why aren't you putting a man on it as well? It doesn't have to just be the woman you've got in that day. So and I have seen that happen across the industry. So I'd say that there's there's that element to it as well. As much as we want women to be covering these stories, it doesn't just have to be.
But I don't think, you know, you're maybe slightly doing it a disservice if you don't put your sports editor on a woman's story. If it's big enough, why aren't you putting a man on it as well? It doesn't have to just be the woman you've got in that day. So and I have seen that happen across the industry. So I'd say that there's there's that element to it as well. As much as we want women to be covering these stories, it doesn't just have to be.
14:34
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
I mean, I joined the Telegraph seven years ago, and it was a newly created role called Women's Sports Reporter, and I was one of two. We still have two at the paper, but over time, I have kind of genuinely just, you know, morphed into, you know, all sport. And, you know, while it was sort of my, my big break per se, because I came from local news at the time, it felt really novel. And I think having having been in, you know, writing for a national for seven years now, you do.
I do think there is this sort of strongly held belief that, you know, women can only cover women's sport. Like, you know, they have their expertise questioned more when when, you know, they are sent out to men's sport. And obviously there are there are exceptions. I mean, like Natalie touched on earlier, there's probably a handful of, of women who are regularly covering, you know, the Premier League football from, from a print perspective. Anyway, it's different for digital and broadcast.
And that all has a knock on effect for like further up the the food chain, there are less women in editor roles and less women commissioners, you know, on, on sports desks. And, and that ultimately means that historically there are less, I would argue, female issues that are covered by the mainstream media. And I'm very fortunate enough to have been mentored by some brilliant women in sports journalism, such as Anna Kessel, who, who's always pushing, you know, the sort of the female the sports science take, like, you know, how is athletic performance impacted by those who take the contraceptive pill or when a woman is on their period and just going, going back to the kind of male allyship angle that Natalie touched on.
I, you know, I've been fortunate enough to have some kind of quite eye opening, brilliant conversations with male colleagues who, who want to know more about how these sort of female specific issues are relevant to sport, just because, you know, whether they come to you for advice because they're not, they're a bit under-confident on how to approach these subjects. You know, that's totally fine by me. It's not to say they can't, but I, I do think there has been historically a sort of kind of belief.
Yeah. That that women can only cover women's sport and it's and it's just not true.
I do think there is this sort of strongly held belief that, you know, women can only cover women's sport. Like, you know, they have their expertise questioned more when when, you know, they are sent out to men's sport. And obviously there are there are exceptions. I mean, like Natalie touched on earlier, there's probably a handful of, of women who are regularly covering, you know, the Premier League football from, from a print perspective. Anyway, it's different for digital and broadcast.
And that all has a knock on effect for like further up the the food chain, there are less women in editor roles and less women commissioners, you know, on, on sports desks. And, and that ultimately means that historically there are less, I would argue, female issues that are covered by the mainstream media. And I'm very fortunate enough to have been mentored by some brilliant women in sports journalism, such as Anna Kessel, who, who's always pushing, you know, the sort of the female the sports science take, like, you know, how is athletic performance impacted by those who take the contraceptive pill or when a woman is on their period and just going, going back to the kind of male allyship angle that Natalie touched on.
I, you know, I've been fortunate enough to have some kind of quite eye opening, brilliant conversations with male colleagues who, who want to know more about how these sort of female specific issues are relevant to sport, just because, you know, whether they come to you for advice because they're not, they're a bit under-confident on how to approach these subjects. You know, that's totally fine by me. It's not to say they can't, but I, I do think there has been historically a sort of kind of belief.
Yeah. That that women can only cover women's sport and it's and it's just not true.
14:36
14:36
Nadia Whittome
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Nadia Whittome
Thank you chair. The committee has heard previously, and also from the three of you today, about how women in sports media roles are still facing gender bias, whether it's having their expertise and their credibility questioned and undermined. We've heard previously from academics at Nottingham Trent University that men are often seen as an automatic authority on sports and on sports journalism, whereas women are having to kind of prove themselves in order just to get a seat at the table.
How far in, in your experience, if I can start with you, Flo, does gender bias shape women's careers in sports media roles?
How far in, in your experience, if I can start with you, Flo, does gender bias shape women's careers in sports media roles?
14:37
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
I think I think we've already spoken about some of that, especially around expertise and certainly around like pigeonholing you based on your gender. But I think for me personally, a huge angle is around social media safety. And I think that's something that's very much gender specific in, in sport and especially football, but also I think probably is something that impacts a lot of minorities, whether that's people who are, you know, from different races or ethnicities, different religions, sexualities, you know, anyone trans working in football especially.
So I think that's something I've experienced massively. When you have a more public facing role within journalism, and it's obviously not something that's exclusive to sport or football either, but it's something that I've experienced, and I think you can see that that you know, how you are treated on social media is a huge barrier to wanting to work in sport and wanting to work in media, because it's certainly something that, given my experiences, I'm not sure I would say to the next generation, or I do say to them, now, look, you know, you need to go in eyes wide open about the realities of existing on X or Instagram or TikTok in this society that we live in and how people are going to view your opinions on football or your analysis or anything, really, because that is one of the things you have to deal with in realities and working in this industry, from the minor things to kind of the more extreme end of the scale, which is certainly stuff that I've experienced where you're having to, you know, get police or lawyers involved because of those experiences.
And there are lots of people in our field who have experienced very similar things.
So I think that's something I've experienced massively. When you have a more public facing role within journalism, and it's obviously not something that's exclusive to sport or football either, but it's something that I've experienced, and I think you can see that that you know, how you are treated on social media is a huge barrier to wanting to work in sport and wanting to work in media, because it's certainly something that, given my experiences, I'm not sure I would say to the next generation, or I do say to them, now, look, you know, you need to go in eyes wide open about the realities of existing on X or Instagram or TikTok in this society that we live in and how people are going to view your opinions on football or your analysis or anything, really, because that is one of the things you have to deal with in realities and working in this industry, from the minor things to kind of the more extreme end of the scale, which is certainly stuff that I've experienced where you're having to, you know, get police or lawyers involved because of those experiences.
And there are lots of people in our field who have experienced very similar things.
14:39
14:39
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
I've never had anything like that. I guess because I've worked in news for the majority of my career, which meant I wasn't giving my opinion. I have now got a podcast where I do give my opinion and boy, I listen to it. Yeah. Thank you. Boy, do people like to tell me I'm wrong. You know, even if I've expressed an opinion that's exactly the same as my male co-star, I will be told that I'm the one in the wrong.
Especially. We did an episode on women's football. Well, that was enlightening, but it's not something I've experienced badly. I've had all the usual misogyny, but. But never anything like that. I
Especially. We did an episode on women's football. Well, that was enlightening, but it's not something I've experienced badly. I've had all the usual misogyny, but. But never anything like that. I
14:40
14:40
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Yeah. Often. You know, I sometimes get if I'd done a live broadcast about something, someone saying, you know, it wasn't good or whatever. And I think it must be what it's like to be a, you know, a footballer when someone who's never played the game is telling them they're very bad at their job, it's like, I'm sorry. Until you do live broadcasting to millions of people in a stadium where you can't hear yourself think, you know, until you've done that, come back to me.
But until. Then,
But until. Then,
14:40
14:40
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
And I think it's probably, you know, the fact that you are saying the usual misogyny, misogyny as well is that we normalize it so much because we feel we see it as part of the job. And I'm sure there's lots of young people who are so now exposed to some of the darker side of social media that they, too, may see it as part of the reality of existing on the internet, whatever field you're in. And it's a challenge that doesn't necessarily have an answer, whether that's, you know, the work that women of football have tried to do or online safety Bill, bill and things like that.
But it's almost kind of we've normalized it so much now as part of our jobs.
But it's almost kind of we've normalized it so much now as part of our jobs.
14:41
14:41
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
On that particular question? Yeah, I think the reality is you need a thick skin to work in this industry, to not be affected by those, these sorts of issues that we've just talked about. I'm quite fortunate, like Natalie, not to have experienced, you know, the scale of, of, you know, the abuse that flow flow just referred to. But unfortunately, it's, it's symptomatic of, of the world we unfortunately live in. And, you know, in terms of young people trying to break into this industry, like we've already touched on it is it is unfortunately shrinking, like jobs are being cut left, right and centre.
And, and that makes it puts the pressure on, I guess, to push your own brand. I suppose as a journalist, you know, the role of a traditional print journalist has has had to change so much to adapt to the boom in social, I mean, an uptick from from a women's sport coverage perspective, I suppose, to counter all this kind of negative chatter is the fact that we are seeing a lot more kind of athlete led storytelling, which has been, you know, crucial to the rise in women's sport coverage.
But yeah, the bottom line is you do need a thick skin.
And, and that makes it puts the pressure on, I guess, to push your own brand. I suppose as a journalist, you know, the role of a traditional print journalist has has had to change so much to adapt to the boom in social, I mean, an uptick from from a women's sport coverage perspective, I suppose, to counter all this kind of negative chatter is the fact that we are seeing a lot more kind of athlete led storytelling, which has been, you know, crucial to the rise in women's sport coverage.
But yeah, the bottom line is you do need a thick skin.
14:42
14:43
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
I've only ever worked in sports, but we know that women are terribly underrepresented across the journalism sector as a whole. And I think I think the figure, the latest figure is something like women accounted for 10% of all sport print journalists in the most recent research, which, you know, is still really woeful, I think, with regards to things like, you know, workplace culture, I've been in media suites where I'm sure you guys have as well, where you are the only woman.
And it happened to me earlier this year where I walked in and there was a, a hospitality angel there working at this particular stadium, and she had locked the ladies toilet because she said that I've locked it for you because the men use it. And I think as a young journalist, when it, when I, when I when she first came up to me, she still works at the same at the same ground. And I, I sort of didn't question it at the time because I was young.
You know, you're eager, you're starting out. You want to make an impression and not cause a fuss. But, you know, the fact that it's that sort of thing is still happening. It's like, well, I am starting to question it because I'm older, I'm more experienced. And it's like, I wouldn't expect to walk into the Telegraph and for the men to be using the women's toilets, for example. So why should it happen? You know, in other areas of work, such as media suites and things like that, that's probably like a really tip of the iceberg example.
I'm sure that, you know, if you spoke to many women across the industry, especially those who cover solely very male dominated sports such as F1 or the Premier League, they'd have much worse stories to tell than that. But that's just an example of how woefully women are underrepresented in sports print journalism.
And it happened to me earlier this year where I walked in and there was a, a hospitality angel there working at this particular stadium, and she had locked the ladies toilet because she said that I've locked it for you because the men use it. And I think as a young journalist, when it, when I, when I when she first came up to me, she still works at the same at the same ground. And I, I sort of didn't question it at the time because I was young.
You know, you're eager, you're starting out. You want to make an impression and not cause a fuss. But, you know, the fact that it's that sort of thing is still happening. It's like, well, I am starting to question it because I'm older, I'm more experienced. And it's like, I wouldn't expect to walk into the Telegraph and for the men to be using the women's toilets, for example. So why should it happen? You know, in other areas of work, such as media suites and things like that, that's probably like a really tip of the iceberg example.
I'm sure that, you know, if you spoke to many women across the industry, especially those who cover solely very male dominated sports such as F1 or the Premier League, they'd have much worse stories to tell than that. But that's just an example of how woefully women are underrepresented in sports print journalism.
14:44
14:44
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
I think we touched on it earlier, but when thinking about this sort of like gender diversity of, of sports press rooms themselves, I think we've got to a positive place, but we need to make sure we don't risk sort of othering women's sport and women that work in sport, in that we've created a platform for a lot more women to work in the industry by crafting more roles for women's sport coverage. So, for example, if I go to a women's game, the vast majority in the press box will be women.
It'll be a very white press box. And that's a huge challenge for the media industry moving forward. But it's very probably 60, 40 women, I'd say maybe even more, which is great, but I think there is a risk of continuing to sort of like other that so more women get pushed into that, more women go into those opportunities. And that only makes the men's side of sport even more male heavy. So I think that would be one to, to consider around the, you know, not making sure there's not a lack of opportunity for women because there just continue to be pushed elsewhere.
It'll be a very white press box. And that's a huge challenge for the media industry moving forward. But it's very probably 60, 40 women, I'd say maybe even more, which is great, but I think there is a risk of continuing to sort of like other that so more women get pushed into that, more women go into those opportunities. And that only makes the men's side of sport even more male heavy. So I think that would be one to, to consider around the, you know, not making sure there's not a lack of opportunity for women because there just continue to be pushed elsewhere.
14:46
14:46
14:46
Christine Jardine
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Christine Jardine
I'm Christine Jordan. I used to be a journalist. And as part of my career, I did sport at a time when there were almost no women and there was no coverage of women's sports full stop, other than golf and curling. But I wondered, just from what you're saying about women being pushed into covering women's sports, there was at the time when women started to break through. There was a kind of, oh, well, we've got to do this attitude in broadcasting is, does that still persist? Is there still a kind of resistance to the sort of developments that we want to see with women having access to all areas in their careers and being able to progress? Is there still a kind of underlying, almost resentment sometimes.
Do you find.
Do you find.
14:47
14:47
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
I certainly think I've seen examples across the industry, broadcast industry of almost we've got we've got one. We don't need any more. Yeah. You know, because we've we've ticked that box. I do genuinely feel, particularly in newsroom newsrooms that I've worked in, there is a real desire to bring more women through and to give them opportunities. But again, I do hear still too often of the WhatsApp groups that the men are in or the golf days that they'll take to go and have the conversations that women are just naturally excluded from the decisions that are being made by very senior men that affect women's careers.
Also think, you know, as a slightly older broadcaster now, you could probably we could all probably sit here and name the women that are prominent in broadcast sports broadcast that are 50 or over, and we could do it on one hand. And I do feel that that is a problem, because whilst the pathways need to be good, there needs to be a world where you don't reach 45 and feel like your career is over. I don't think that's got much better.
And I think in the digital world that we're now living in and that push for new talent coming through, it's almost like one in, one out. We probably do need to be much better as an industry at looking after women that reach a certain age and want to stay. A lot of friends that I have, and we talk about this a lot, going freelance or becoming self-employed like I've just recently done, because they want a better work life balance, because they want to be with their children, for example.
But they also feel their career has reached a natural stop and they can't really see what that next bit is. So we're not particularly good as an industry at doing that either.
Also think, you know, as a slightly older broadcaster now, you could probably we could all probably sit here and name the women that are prominent in broadcast sports broadcast that are 50 or over, and we could do it on one hand. And I do feel that that is a problem, because whilst the pathways need to be good, there needs to be a world where you don't reach 45 and feel like your career is over. I don't think that's got much better.
And I think in the digital world that we're now living in and that push for new talent coming through, it's almost like one in, one out. We probably do need to be much better as an industry at looking after women that reach a certain age and want to stay. A lot of friends that I have, and we talk about this a lot, going freelance or becoming self-employed like I've just recently done, because they want a better work life balance, because they want to be with their children, for example.
But they also feel their career has reached a natural stop and they can't really see what that next bit is. So we're not particularly good as an industry at doing that either.
14:49
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
And just to follow up on that, Natalie said there, when I started my media business two years ago, that was very much at the forefront of that is, you know, a lot of it was about creating. I wanted to create more coverage opportunities for women's football. But I also realised as a woman working in broadcast, you age out very quickly. There's always a younger, fresher, more interesting person behind you. It's it's the same for, you know, much of the media industry, TV , film, that's kind of the way of the visual landscape.
So I was very conscious of how do I pivot ahead of time? Because I think the reality is, is that very few people in broadcasting are going to be working even in mid 40s. And that's a pretty scary reality when most of us are going to be having to work till our 70s. So I think that's the kind of, I think, challenge for that more public facing broadcast side for sure.
So I was very conscious of how do I pivot ahead of time? Because I think the reality is, is that very few people in broadcasting are going to be working even in mid 40s. And that's a pretty scary reality when most of us are going to be having to work till our 70s. So I think that's the kind of, I think, challenge for that more public facing broadcast side for sure.
14:50
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Also, as an industry, we've worked really, really hard to bring these women through and train them and get them to a point where they're actually very good at their job, and then you watch them walk out the door. What was that for? What was or what were all those years for? If, if we're letting women walk away.
14:50
14:50
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
going to say, I mean, Natalie will be able to speak on this point more, but I've certainly witnessed from from, you know, older colleagues within the industry. You know, once you have kids as a woman, kind of how hard is it to actually, you know, get back into the game as such? Because I've seen, I've seen, you know, women editors having to rush out of news conference because they've got to do the school run and feeling really guilty about it.
And as a young woman looking up to these women, it kind of makes you think, well, you know, what is that going to look like for me in 5 or 10 years time? Because, you know, doing this job, you there's a lot of travel involved. You're, you're required to cover events, sometimes many miles away from home and have extended periods away from home. And we know, you know, as a society, most of the caregiving roles still fall on women's shoulders.
And it just isn't the same for men who become fathers in the industry, take their paternity leave, and then they just sort of kind of walks back in. And, you know, I'm not saying I'm I'm not saying it's not challenging for them, but I just, I just don't think it's the same as women.
And as a young woman looking up to these women, it kind of makes you think, well, you know, what is that going to look like for me in 5 or 10 years time? Because, you know, doing this job, you there's a lot of travel involved. You're, you're required to cover events, sometimes many miles away from home and have extended periods away from home. And we know, you know, as a society, most of the caregiving roles still fall on women's shoulders.
And it just isn't the same for men who become fathers in the industry, take their paternity leave, and then they just sort of kind of walks back in. And, you know, I'm not saying I'm I'm not saying it's not challenging for them, but I just, I just don't think it's the same as women.
14:51
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
And I think there's also an assumption for many people. And I had a friend who recently went up for a role, and there was an assumption because she was a parent, that she therefore wouldn't be up for the role because of the travel. So even then, there's an assumption about your limitations before you even, you know, get started.
14:52
14:52
Richard Quigley
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Richard Quigley
Thank you. I think somebody something struck me that you said there Natalie was the usual misogyny and that sort of a bit of a chill through. I mean, as politicians we get lots of abuse. But I know Nadia will get more abuse because she's a woman and it's just not acceptable anywhere, really. Is it in society to be able to say usual misogyny? But something you did say, which my wife and children will be cheering at at home, is men are difficult to get in the way.
So I can only agree with that. And they'll be really glad you pointed that out on on employment conditions. And to Natalie, first things like job security, flexibility, maternity pay, all the things, you know, expecting a normal job. Do you think the provision or lack of in your industry is preventing women entering it?
So I can only agree with that. And they'll be really glad you pointed that out on on employment conditions. And to Natalie, first things like job security, flexibility, maternity pay, all the things, you know, expecting a normal job. Do you think the provision or lack of in your industry is preventing women entering it?
14:52
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
I was hugely fortunate in that when I had my two daughters, I was working in ITV, ITN and at the BBC, both of whom looked after me very well, both of whom gave me the exact maternity leave I wanted and supported me, and I went straight back into my role and I had no issues. If I were about to embark on my journey as a mother now, I don't know in this industry and again, not about those individual newsrooms, but just industry wide that I would feel as comfortable or as confident.
And if I was freelance, I would be incredibly worried because Fiona is incredibly, you know, you absolutely spot on in that you're coming back after with my. I actually planned both my pregnancies around the Olympics. That's how ridiculous I. Well
And if I was freelance, I would be incredibly worried because Fiona is incredibly, you know, you absolutely spot on in that you're coming back after with my. I actually planned both my pregnancies around the Olympics. That's how ridiculous I. Well
14:53
14:53
14:53
14:53
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
It was a man. Yeah, funnily enough, but I think with my first, I only took six months because I needed to be back for London. And you know, you can't miss the London Olympics. And it was not enough and it broke my heart. And then the second time I took nine and a half months and the first thing I did was fly to Rio and present the 1:00 news for 15 minutes with no autocue, no monitor throwing around.
And I was so scared and someone remarked to me afterwards, you should probably just smile more.
And I was so scared and someone remarked to me afterwards, you should probably just smile more.
14:54
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
dear friend of mine. But yes, again, it was a man and it was it was just a bit of a different time. But my point was, was going to be when you sort of talk about usual misogyny, it is so much water of water off a duck's back now that it is something we just deal with. I did a story about sexism in sport where this very prominent woman in her sport was being chanted at regularly.
Every time she went to a football match, she was getting awful sexist abuse. And when I had this conversation internally, a woman said to me, well, I go to football every week, and you just hear that all the time. Like, what's the issue? We have become a little bit. It's just we're so used to it that it's just become a bit normalised. Yeah.
Every time she went to a football match, she was getting awful sexist abuse. And when I had this conversation internally, a woman said to me, well, I go to football every week, and you just hear that all the time. Like, what's the issue? We have become a little bit. It's just we're so used to it that it's just become a bit normalised. Yeah.
14:55
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
And there's a certain resilience as well that you, you build up. And so you probably are desensitized to certain things as well. So that, you know, normalising the misogyny and what you experience because it becomes so regular and so common. I think as a freelancer and being self-employed, you don't have any of that security. And that's something that, you know, I think about a lot in terms of if I were to experience long term sickness, I have no security, no maternity leave.
So if I don't work, I don't make any money. And that's, you know, for the vast majority who work in sports and media industry, they are freelancers.
So if I don't work, I don't make any money. And that's, you know, for the vast majority who work in sports and media industry, they are freelancers.
14:55
Richard Quigley
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Richard Quigley
And I think for the concern around that is some of the work I'm doing on creative industries. You find what is happening is people entering the creative industry, the ones whose parents can pay for them to do it, and there's a danger that you're not getting rewarded for your specialism and ability to be a journalist. You're getting rewarded because your parents can afford to, not you guys. But and it's a bit of a concern that an industry is disappearing that way.
But keeping on self-employment and freelance, is it even harder for women than it would be for your male counterparts? And you'll know the answer to that. I'm not trying to lead the question, but if we in what ways is it harder if you're freelance and self-employed to stay in the industry?
But keeping on self-employment and freelance, is it even harder for women than it would be for your male counterparts? And you'll know the answer to that. I'm not trying to lead the question, but if we in what ways is it harder if you're freelance and self-employed to stay in the industry?
14:56
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
I think it's harder, certainly, when it comes to the case of maternity, because you have to decide to make those decisions. And I've heard very similar stories to Natalie's in terms of people who rush back to get to work because they're worried if they don't turn up, someone else is going to take their place. You know, it's probably very similar to how a player feels when they get injured is if they don't come back, they're not going to get back in the squad or they're not going to get their place on the pitch.
And I think that's the reality of certainly being self-employed and being. And it's very different if you are a father or a mother, I think, because it's that that physical impact that you have, as you know, as as a parent and like Fiona said, is that, you know, more often than not the main caregiver in the family. So I think that that is a big element of it. And some places are really supportive and, and others aren't.
And I think there's such a because there are so few jobs now, it increases that competition and it increases that uncertainty and that insecurity about your place. And I think social media has added to that too, because I think as someone who is freelance, that comparison culture is always there because you're saying, oh, that person's doing that, that person's doing this. I need to make sure I say yes to this because otherwise I won't get this. So that is kind of a constant cycle of things playing on your mind.
And I think that's the reality of certainly being self-employed and being. And it's very different if you are a father or a mother, I think, because it's that that physical impact that you have, as you know, as as a parent and like Fiona said, is that, you know, more often than not the main caregiver in the family. So I think that that is a big element of it. And some places are really supportive and, and others aren't.
And I think there's such a because there are so few jobs now, it increases that competition and it increases that uncertainty and that insecurity about your place. And I think social media has added to that too, because I think as someone who is freelance, that comparison culture is always there because you're saying, oh, that person's doing that, that person's doing this. I need to make sure I say yes to this because otherwise I won't get this. So that is kind of a constant cycle of things playing on your mind.
14:57
14:58
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
I think it's I think it's widened opportunities for fans and those who consume women's sport, because we know that I think the fandom in women's sport is very different to fandom in men's sport. So a prime example being it's very niche and you don't read a lot about it in newspapers because male, predominantly male desks won't commission it. Netball, because the men haven't ever played it. It's very unlikely they've ever been to a netball match or know much about the sport itself.
I know for a fact that, you know, Sky have broadcast netball for the past two decades and, and they, they're, they've blown up their, their YouTube channel, which is entirely I think it's the largest female audience of across all, all of their sports that they show. And they've noticed that they don't normally , women won't necessarily watch the sporting event live, but they'll come back to it because they've got other commitments, whether that's, you know, putting the kid to bed or whatever it might be.
So I think, I think it's I think the boom in social and digital is definitely kind of led to an uptick in the cut through when it comes to women's sport. It's reaching more people. You know, people are engaging with it more. But yeah, I guess the counter, the counter side to that is that, you know, they're, they're scrutinised more. They're, you know, they receive, they receive more abuse, more pylons, those sorts of things.
But yeah.
I know for a fact that, you know, Sky have broadcast netball for the past two decades and, and they, they're, they've blown up their, their YouTube channel, which is entirely I think it's the largest female audience of across all, all of their sports that they show. And they've noticed that they don't normally , women won't necessarily watch the sporting event live, but they'll come back to it because they've got other commitments, whether that's, you know, putting the kid to bed or whatever it might be.
So I think, I think it's I think the boom in social and digital is definitely kind of led to an uptick in the cut through when it comes to women's sport. It's reaching more people. You know, people are engaging with it more. But yeah, I guess the counter, the counter side to that is that, you know, they're, they're scrutinised more. They're, you know, they receive, they receive more abuse, more pylons, those sorts of things.
But yeah.
14:59
14:59
14:59
Kim Leadbeater
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Kim Leadbeater
Lovely. Thank you chair. There's a nice segue from Richard's questions actually there. And I just think it's really fascinating. And thank you for giving such honest and open evidence to us. We could be having probably pretty much the same conversation about women in politics and women in sport and women in broadcasting. So you've got three areas there where I think we've probably got a lot of shared experiences, shall we say. So just diving into that a little bit further, how significant a factor would you say online abuse is in shaping women's experience of your profession at the moment? Natalie, I'll go with you first of all.
Well, I
Well, I
15:00
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
think if I were starting out and I was seeing the level of abuse, that's that future me would would get it wouldn't it wouldn't make me want to do that as a job. I can't say I want my children to become camera facing journalists, if I'm honest. Because it's not particularly nice. So yeah, I think when I started out, my role models were were women like Clare Balding and Gabby Logan, and latterly obviously brilliant Kelly Cates and all still brilliant at their jobs today.
But we didn't have social media then, so I couldn't see what anyone thought of Clare, you know, two minutes after she came off Air Wimbledon broadcast because it didn't exist. So people coming into this industry now are and living in a very different landscape to the one I came into. And I came into one without too many women, but brilliant role models in them, and very much being on my own in press boxes and sort of taking a having to learn to rub along with men and get their help.
And, you know, I'm forever grateful to the men in those press boxes that really helped me in my early career. But now, if I could go back and see the abuse that that women do get now, it would I feel it would be a barrier. I'm not sure I'd want to do it as much as I did when I started out, but you guys.
But we didn't have social media then, so I couldn't see what anyone thought of Clare, you know, two minutes after she came off Air Wimbledon broadcast because it didn't exist. So people coming into this industry now are and living in a very different landscape to the one I came into. And I came into one without too many women, but brilliant role models in them, and very much being on my own in press boxes and sort of taking a having to learn to rub along with men and get their help.
And, you know, I'm forever grateful to the men in those press boxes that really helped me in my early career. But now, if I could go back and see the abuse that that women do get now, it would I feel it would be a barrier. I'm not sure I'd want to do it as much as I did when I started out, but you guys.
15:01
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
I would I would probably say I encounter it less than the two women either side of me, and that's purely because I work in print journalism. That said, it is so energy sapping to scroll in the comment section, which I've you know, I've now stopped doing it because of the amount of misogyny that it's like a cesspit of misogyny most, most times. And we were all actually me and Flo were saying before we came into the room that, you know, in this day and age, journalists have no choice but to push themselves on social media to, you know, foster their brand.
But we wouldn't necessarily have it if we weren't doing this job because of, you know, all the stuff that you have to put up with in this day and age. So yeah, it's just modern day world, isn't it?
But we wouldn't necessarily have it if we weren't doing this job because of, you know, all the stuff that you have to put up with in this day and age. So yeah, it's just modern day world, isn't it?
15:02
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Yeah. I would echo what Fiona and Natalie have said and said if I was having a conversation with a young person, I would probably have to be quite frank and say, consider what you might be experiencing if you put yourself into a public facing role and maybe, you know, doing something where you blend more into the background and you don't have to put yourself in such a exposing position, that might be the way to go, because I think you have to be willing to kind of take so much.
And it does take its toll.
And it does take its toll.
15:03
Kim Leadbeater
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Kim Leadbeater
I saw depressing, isn't it? I mean, and that is I mean, and we have the same in our jobs. I mean, I've just shown a bunch of schoolchildren around Parliament, and you want to say to those young girls and women, get involved, we need good women in public life. And actually it is a hard sell. It's challenging. And do you think for people who are currently working in the industry, there is an element of self-censorship, censorship that you don't say things that you might want to say because you're worried that there might be consequences, because we've had evidence for the committee that that can be the case.
Any experiences that you personally or maybe other people?
Any experiences that you personally or maybe other people?
15:03
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
100%. For me, I would say 100%. So in the early days of Twitter, I would be far more likely to share my opinion on things. And after what I experienced over a number of years, I completely changed my the way that I use any social media, I restricted and altered my privacy settings entirely. I reveal hardly anything of my opinion myself on there, and it's purely kind of self-promotion in a very basic way, and that's the only reason to be on there.
And if I didn't need to be on there pushing articles and trying to grow a business, I would absolutely not be in there. But unfortunately, in my line of work, I kind of have to be on there. But I wouldn't be if I didn't have to be, if I.
And if I didn't need to be on there pushing articles and trying to grow a business, I would absolutely not be in there. But unfortunately, in my line of work, I kind of have to be on there. But I wouldn't be if I didn't have to be, if I.
15:04
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Yeah, I can totally relate to what Flo is saying in the sense that I the longer I've been in this industry, the more about, you know, your personal life. You don't want to put on social media because you're purely on it for, for professional purposes. I mean, I think that's increasingly common, to be fair across the industry because, you know, your profile is everywhere these days. People can just look you up, you know, know where you live.
And as a woman, it can be quite scary if you kind of reveal too much about yourself. But yeah, I'm, I'm fortunate in that I've, I've not had anything as drastic as, as Flo.
And as a woman, it can be quite scary if you kind of reveal too much about yourself. But yeah, I'm, I'm fortunate in that I've, I've not had anything as drastic as, as Flo.
15:05
15:05
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Oh, 100%. I mean, anyone that knows me knows I'm quite opinionated on lots of things, but there's just no point. What's the point? Because once you've put it out there, it's it's out there and then you're just going to get it's just not worth it. And then it just consumes you. And then, you know, you're knee deep in the comment section or something, and it's just not good for your mental health. So I really, I did reach my 40s and just go, I'm not doing this anymore.
15:05
Kim Leadbeater
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Kim Leadbeater
Yeah, yeah. And just following on again from what Richard was asking. So given that that is the landscape that you're all working in, what more can employers do to try and support you and help with that? And Flo, as a freelancer, you know, you don't have that support that you would hopefully get from an employer. So what does that look like? So first of all, what do you think employers could do to sort of address those issues a bit more? Natalie.
I'll go that way down.
I'll go that way down.
15:06
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
I would say, be mindful of when working with anything that's going out publicly, being in conversation with who you're working with, about what the clips are, you are posting. So for example, there was one particular broadcaster I used to work with, and I just had to say, please don't tag me in anything because if you tag me in something, these are the consequences. So making sure you work alongside someone so that you can protect them as well, or if you know you're looking at a segment and you think, oh, this 20s is going to go so well, we should, we should pump that out.
Is being mindful of the person of what that clip out of context and the impact of that, and not just because you think it's going to be a great engagement for the website or the broadcast or whoever it may be. So I think keeping the person front of mind rather than the engagement and the reach of said clip, I think is really important. But I've had lots of support from people I've worked with and people in the game, you know, managers that I know who've been really supportive of when I've experienced things, which is great.
And I think, you know, because they go through it as well, because social media is that's the reality of social media now. So I think it's just making sure that, yeah, you support people to protect them from certain things for sure.
Is being mindful of the person of what that clip out of context and the impact of that, and not just because you think it's going to be a great engagement for the website or the broadcast or whoever it may be. So I think keeping the person front of mind rather than the engagement and the reach of said clip, I think is really important. But I've had lots of support from people I've worked with and people in the game, you know, managers that I know who've been really supportive of when I've experienced things, which is great.
And I think, you know, because they go through it as well, because social media is that's the reality of social media now. So I think it's just making sure that, yeah, you support people to protect them from certain things for sure.
15:07
15:07
15:07
Rosie Duffield
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Rosie Duffield
Thanks, chair. Again, everything you've just said in that answer, I think will, you know, totally resonates with all of us as politicians. Fiona, we've been told that women's sport currently occupies less than 10% of annual TV and print sports coverage. That's quite a shock, actually, isn't it? 10%. What is your view of that percentage relative to the demand? Because, you know, we know about those figures in netball and just Women's World Cup and all of that, and it doesn't seem to tally with how much coverage it gets.
15:08
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Yeah, it's woefully low when you hear it out loud, isn't it. And you know that's the highest it's ever been. Like, you know, ten, 15 years ago it would have been as low as 2%, I would argue. And I think we've already touched on before, it hasn't necessarily kind of tallied with a rise in the number of sports writing roles for women. They've very much stayed the same, if not, you know, we're talking really like women's football specialists who we have one I know the mail have won, the Guardian have two where women's football is probably leading the way on, on those kind of specific on that sort of front.
But yeah, it's I think in print it's it's difficult. I think during major events when interest levels will spike, that's when you'll tend to see women's female athletes on the on the front pages actually like being the front page news. And, you know, during the regular season, it's, it's very hard to come by unless there's, you know, a massive story that that breaks or, you know, you're fortunate enough as a print journalist to land a big exclusive, which is sort of agenda setting, etcetera.
I think it goes back to the, the reality that a lot of the people on sports desks are, are male. You know, there aren't a lot of women in editorial roles. There aren't a lot of women who are, you know, at the decision table per se. And although it has got better, I think I think the quality of women's sport coverage has grown significantly over the past 5 to 8 years.
We're seeing lots of, you know, long read interviews. We're seeing a lot more analysis, which, you know, ten, 15 years ago, it would be very, very sketchy, you know, very few and far between. And, and I think that's the ongoing challenge. You know, women's sport wants to be female athletes want to be taken seriously, like it's their profession. They, they, they want to be critiqued. They want to be, you know, they want to be treated from a performance perspective.
And there has been a big push on that front. But I think there's still a lot of there's still a lot of a lot of work to be done. You know, it goes without saying that the column inches are very firmly rooted in in men's sport.
But yeah, it's I think in print it's it's difficult. I think during major events when interest levels will spike, that's when you'll tend to see women's female athletes on the on the front pages actually like being the front page news. And, you know, during the regular season, it's, it's very hard to come by unless there's, you know, a massive story that that breaks or, you know, you're fortunate enough as a print journalist to land a big exclusive, which is sort of agenda setting, etcetera.
I think it goes back to the, the reality that a lot of the people on sports desks are, are male. You know, there aren't a lot of women in editorial roles. There aren't a lot of women who are, you know, at the decision table per se. And although it has got better, I think I think the quality of women's sport coverage has grown significantly over the past 5 to 8 years.
We're seeing lots of, you know, long read interviews. We're seeing a lot more analysis, which, you know, ten, 15 years ago, it would be very, very sketchy, you know, very few and far between. And, and I think that's the ongoing challenge. You know, women's sport wants to be female athletes want to be taken seriously, like it's their profession. They, they, they want to be critiqued. They want to be, you know, they want to be treated from a performance perspective.
And there has been a big push on that front. But I think there's still a lot of there's still a lot of a lot of work to be done. You know, it goes without saying that the column inches are very firmly rooted in in men's sport.
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Rosie Duffield
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Rosie Duffield
Thank you. I want to move on to Flo because Fiona just touched on analysis. And that's the other thing, isn't it? It's not just coverage. It's kind of let's discuss this and get really down into it. And Flo, you've previously commented on the lack of quality in-depth analysis and the coverage of that. What do you think are the challenges that still remain? You you mentioned the economic landscape and that women's sports still seen as a minority interest, which seems crazy because the majority of the population.
Do you think that plays a huge part?
Do you think that plays a huge part?
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Yeah, I think the opportunity is with digital media. That's something that I'm really focused on. And I think with, you know, we spoke about content creators and how they're coming into the landscape. But I do think the digital approach from legacy media or digital approach of new media in general can put a spotlight on women's sport. And that's really important because I think some of the traditional media are going to constantly going through the same motions and going through the same cycles, and they will still focus on the top six teams of the Premier League and not necessarily even EFL, for example.
So I think we're going to go through those same patterns and that really changes. But I do think the rise of digital new media allows people to create that for themselves. Certainly something I'm trying to do, which is, you know, a frustration, having worked in many sports environments where you were just telling the same story about the same England player or the lack of women's FA Cup prize money, which is an important story to be told. But you can't be saying the same thing every season.
So I think the the good thing is, is there are people like myself and others who are trying to challenge that or trying to say, look, can we actually write about what's happening on the pitch for once? And I think that will continue to happen, you know, within traditional media landscapes too, because people are fighting for that. But there is more of a kind of a new media and digital media push, I think, to make that happen.
So I think we're going to go through those same patterns and that really changes. But I do think the rise of digital new media allows people to create that for themselves. Certainly something I'm trying to do, which is, you know, a frustration, having worked in many sports environments where you were just telling the same story about the same England player or the lack of women's FA Cup prize money, which is an important story to be told. But you can't be saying the same thing every season.
So I think the the good thing is, is there are people like myself and others who are trying to challenge that or trying to say, look, can we actually write about what's happening on the pitch for once? And I think that will continue to happen, you know, within traditional media landscapes too, because people are fighting for that. But there is more of a kind of a new media and digital media push, I think, to make that happen.
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Yeah, probably frees me up to have an opinion because I haven't been able to have that my whole career. And I can now whether I want to, because of all the things we've already said. You know, that's the big question, I guess. I suppose it goes back a bit to what I was saying earlier. If it bleeds, it leads in news in, in, in the digital world, if you're if you're getting clicks and they will push it higher.
So if they can see that people are reading it, they'll push it higher. But Premier League football and you know, if England are playing men's football, it will just dominate. And so women's sport just gets pushed down and it becomes what's the story. You know if the Lionesses are winning if they go and you know win and they're now in the play off final that's a story. But it will get jumped by what Lisandro Martinez said last night because that's men's football.
So it's almost like a hierarchy thing. And I'm just not sure unless you're in the middle of a of a World Cup for the women or the euros for the women, and they happen to do quite well. You know, I've been in situations where I've covered women's finals and it's been dropped from the broadcast because they lost. So that was only a decade ago. We're not talking about 50 years. So, you know, I think we're we are much better.
But they still women still need to seem to do to do something exceptional. They have to be winning. And there has to be a story, and there has to be something for journalists to get stuck into. It can't just be they've done this thing, you know, it has to be exceptional.
So if they can see that people are reading it, they'll push it higher. But Premier League football and you know, if England are playing men's football, it will just dominate. And so women's sport just gets pushed down and it becomes what's the story. You know if the Lionesses are winning if they go and you know win and they're now in the play off final that's a story. But it will get jumped by what Lisandro Martinez said last night because that's men's football.
So it's almost like a hierarchy thing. And I'm just not sure unless you're in the middle of a of a World Cup for the women or the euros for the women, and they happen to do quite well. You know, I've been in situations where I've covered women's finals and it's been dropped from the broadcast because they lost. So that was only a decade ago. We're not talking about 50 years. So, you know, I think we're we are much better.
But they still women still need to seem to do to do something exceptional. They have to be winning. And there has to be a story, and there has to be something for journalists to get stuck into. It can't just be they've done this thing, you know, it has to be exceptional.
15:14
15:14
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
You, thank you, Rosie. You've all given extremely powerful and helpful evidence this afternoon. Thank you very much for doing it. And although it is it is very depressing. It's a consistent theme from this inquiry, the sense that women in sport have to be kind of exceptional. And it's come across again today that you need a thick skin to sort of succeed. And it's it's really tough to hear. So I'm just going to ask in the last one minute a hard question.
What's the one thing now that you think would be most helpful to a young woman starting out trying to have a career in sports journalism? What's the one thing that would be most useful that you would like to see that young woman have to have a good career in sport journalism? Told you. It's a hard question. Who wants to start?
What's the one thing now that you think would be most helpful to a young woman starting out trying to have a career in sports journalism? What's the one thing that would be most useful that you would like to see that young woman have to have a good career in sport journalism? Told you. It's a hard question. Who wants to start?
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15:15
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
I've got one. If you need more time. I think recognition, I mean, it's something we talk about a lot in our industry because so rarely are women recognised for their achievements in industry awards or elsewhere and beyond. So I think a way that recognises women to keep them coming back, because that's the kind of stuff that keeps you feel like you're respected by your peers, you're doing good work, you feel like you're doing impactful work.
It's making a difference. Your audience appreciates it. That stuff, I think, keeps you going. And I think this industry probably really does grind people out because they rarely see that recognition.
It's making a difference. Your audience appreciates it. That stuff, I think, keeps you going. And I think this industry probably really does grind people out because they rarely see that recognition.
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
It's a good one because we can all relate to the number of women who were shortlisted for journalism sports journalism awards. I would I would say, don't let your gender hold you back. I know it's easier said than done, but if you want to paint your nails pink and walk into a room full of men and ask the questions that truly matter, which can be hard, especially when they're relevant to female athletes. Don't shy away from from doing that.
Because, you know, I think when you ask those sorts of questions, people, you automatically kind of pull the wool up from someone's eyes, often male eyes, and you open the door to a completely different avenue that they might have not explored or thought of. Yeah, just just be you. And although it's tough, kind of just, yeah, tough it out.
Because, you know, I think when you ask those sorts of questions, people, you automatically kind of pull the wool up from someone's eyes, often male eyes, and you open the door to a completely different avenue that they might have not explored or thought of. Yeah, just just be you. And although it's tough, kind of just, yeah, tough it out.
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
I would just say it's not a, it's not an industry for the meek, but it has got better. I know we've just spent maybe the last hour showing that it hasn't. But it, but it has. I have had entire awareness chants, sexual obscenities and obscenities at me live on air. That doesn't happen now. It is much better. There are more of us. We are. We all know each other. We all talk.
We all have each other's backs. It is getting much better, but don't come in expecting it to be easy.
We all have each other's backs. It is getting much better, but don't come in expecting it to be easy.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Hello and welcome to our second panel this afternoon. And thank you so much, all three of you, for joining us. And I hope you've enjoyed listening to the first panel. I thought it was really interesting. And it's given you a good flavor A really interesting. And it's given you a good flavor of the kinds of topics that we want to discuss with you this afternoon for our second panel today. We're really pleased to be able to hear from Ashley Broadley, who's the chair of the Sports Journalists Association.
Thank you for coming. Leon Mann, the founder, the Black Collective of Media in sports, and Barbara Slater, a former at BBC sports. A really fantastic panel. Really looking forward to hearing from all of you.
Thank you for coming. Leon Mann, the founder, the Black Collective of Media in sports, and Barbara Slater, a former at BBC sports. A really fantastic panel. Really looking forward to hearing from all of you.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Our people who apply for the awards because we want to celebrate. journalism through the SGA Awards. That's our main our flagship awards ceremony. So we look at how many young people are entering. We look at how many women are entering, and it's something we've looked at closely over the last few years. It was mentioned just previously now about that and how important recognition is.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Otherwise, you know, we're all wasting our time here. What does it look like? Interesting. We've got a job going at the moment that's just been. advertised at PA, which is for a Premier League football reporter in London, which sounds really. exciting and and will be . And also we'll be covering a bit of England cricket at Lord's and the Oval, etc. and I've just got some information this morning.
170 applicants as of this morning and 19 were women. So from a from a starting point of where that where you begin, that's, you know, what is it just less than 10%, 10% is a percentage figure that we keep hearing ten, 12%. It seems to be that sort of figure. We've got to look at why those people aren't applying for those jobs. Why aren't women applying for the sports journalist roles? I did some work a few years ago where we I spoke to our recruitment.
department and we made the language on an advert specific. I got people in women in football to retweet the job advert and we got the same 200 applicants, 20 from women. So there's something fundamentally wrong there and why women aren't feeling as though they're comfortable . Applying for
170 applicants as of this morning and 19 were women. So from a from a starting point of where that where you begin, that's, you know, what is it just less than 10%, 10% is a percentage figure that we keep hearing ten, 12%. It seems to be that sort of figure. We've got to look at why those people aren't applying for those jobs. Why aren't women applying for the sports journalist roles? I did some work a few years ago where we I spoke to our recruitment.
department and we made the language on an advert specific. I got people in women in football to retweet the job advert and we got the same 200 applicants, 20 from women. So there's something fundamentally wrong there and why women aren't feeling as though they're comfortable . Applying for
15:21
15:22
Alex Brewer
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Alex Brewer
Barbara Leon, please feel free to add anything to I mean, I would I would echo what you've said, and I think the issue is almost where are you recruiting from? Because I think that recruiting pool is, is almost a sort of a kind of filter that that is making it more difficult for, for, for women. So if you are looking to appoint a.
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
ways a consequence of what's happening if you like lower down. Yeah, I think it's an interesting question and one that as an industry, we should be able to answer fairly easily. I think anecdotally, we can say speaking and looking around our industry, there's an. underrepresentation of women. But I'm incredibly. disappointed that we don't have any data points to look at. So even the three of us, we can refer to different data points, but it's not actually an industry wide kind of picture.
So how do you go about trying to solve a problem without understanding where it is, as becomes where the black culture, media and sport. We are a group of black men that started and then my wife told me off and pointed out that it was black men. And actually black people are women as well. So we quickly made a change in terms of making sure we were relevant and actually kind of effective for our, for our industry. But we, we are a black led group, but we have done a series of.
conferences that we've called the D word. In fact, last week at the Premier League headquarters, we held our sixth D word. We hold them every two years and we do like a bit of a head count. Essentially, it's diversity that we can see, which is very dangerous because of course, we're only able to kind of that person of mixed heritage. If you look at one of my daughters, maybe she wouldn't count as someone's looking in terms of she's got blonde hair and blue eyes.
And my other daughter would count, for.
So how do you go about trying to solve a problem without understanding where it is, as becomes where the black culture, media and sport. We are a group of black men that started and then my wife told me off and pointed out that it was black men. And actually black people are women as well. So we quickly made a change in terms of making sure we were relevant and actually kind of effective for our, for our industry. But we, we are a black led group, but we have done a series of.
conferences that we've called the D word. In fact, last week at the Premier League headquarters, we held our sixth D word. We hold them every two years and we do like a bit of a head count. Essentially, it's diversity that we can see, which is very dangerous because of course, we're only able to kind of that person of mixed heritage. If you look at one of my daughters, maybe she wouldn't count as someone's looking in terms of she's got blonde hair and blue eyes.
And my other daughter would count, for.
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
They both should be as part of a head count of women of colour within, you know, a data point. But the fact that we don't know, we don't have data is a real kind of problem. Every single D word conference that we've held, we have asked the industry, please come together as leaders and put some research together, because what we're talking about here is just what we can see. So we can see reporters, we can see, you know, we can look at a byline in a newspaper and.
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Then it's mainly men. That was my experience of different places, mainly men, I'd say. And Barbara, I'd love you to challenge me because I want us to have the data to be able to kind of back it up. But in terms of what I experienced being on the shop floor, I saw an. underrepresentation of women in particular areas and. underrepresentation of men in other areas, but we don't have any data. So this is all finger in the in the air stuff.
And that's not how you solve a serious problem. Like we need to come together as an.
And that's not how you solve a serious problem. Like we need to come together as an.
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Put a little bit of money, dare I say it aside, maybe get some support from. government to say this is something that we need to look at, maybe work with. universities in terms of who's coming out there. That's not the only pathway, but that's a significant one. We know there's lots of research from. universities that shows people are coming out waving their kind of qualification in the air, and then they haven't got the networks or the soft skills.
necessarily to get into the industry. So there are loads of things, loads of opportunities that we have. But to . Answer your
necessarily to get into the industry. So there are loads of things, loads of opportunities that we have. But to . Answer your
15:26
Alex Brewer
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Alex Brewer
question, yes, it's much harder for women, I think. I think there is a degree of tracking of that in the legacy media, but I think what we are seeing is such fundamental. shifts in this industry. I mean, they are they're huge. And actually it's very difficult once you you're you're looking at the social media and the digital world actually to, to make those assessments. Because so much of it, it's, it isn't just about pure journalism skills.
It's about. And we've heard it mentioned before about content. creation and, and influencers. And if you like, I would almost describe them as subject matter experts. And that might be an athlete that now creates their own channel or network. So we're seeing on the one hand, I think a shrinking of.
It's about. And we've heard it mentioned before about content. creation and, and influencers. And if you like, I would almost describe them as subject matter experts. And that might be an athlete that now creates their own channel or network. So we're seeing on the one hand, I think a shrinking of.
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Alex Brewer
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Alex Brewer
those traditional media, but you're seeing a literal. explosion of. opportunities elsewhere. And I think if one wants to address some of the issues, I think it's really important that we're looking at where the future opportunities are coming from. You know, and I'm possibly slightly more broadcast rather than journalism. And, you know, I think some of the progress we've seen with, with, with, with women has been based on their success as athletes.
So we're sort of seeing, if you like, new. roles being. created for, for people that have got the. credibility in the eyes of the audience and the audience want to engage with them, and they want to follow what they've got to say. You know, you just look at the explosion in.
So we're sort of seeing, if you like, new. roles being. created for, for people that have got the. credibility in the eyes of the audience and the audience want to engage with them, and they want to follow what they've got to say. You know, you just look at the explosion in.
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Alex Brewer
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Alex Brewer
A credibility and an expertise. So how do we get make sure that our women are having those opportunities? And I would say actually, the investment that's been made on the field of play has been really, really important. And actually. allowing women to be. credible in sport. And I don't think it was that long ago where they were not. And you look at. 2012 and the extraordinary success.
You look at our women footballers, our women rugby players, women cricketers. I mean, they are they're they're they're, if you like, in the first. Battalion to really win over a mindset. change about the value of women's sport, its.
You look at our women footballers, our women rugby players, women cricketers. I mean, they are they're they're they're, if you like, in the first. Battalion to really win over a mindset. change about the value of women's sport, its.
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15:28
Alex Brewer
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Alex Brewer
The enjoyment a fan can get from it. And I think what we've got to hope is that over time, those role models and they might be on the field of play, but that will. translate to an industry that is more welcoming to women and accepts women. Because the truth is, I'm sure. Well, actually I've got two men, so I can't say you've probably experienced it, but you know, the, the you know, I've been in a room when I was a sort of junior and I just was a non person.
Why would anybody care about my opinion. You know, I was just a woman, you know. And . And
Why would anybody care about my opinion. You know, I was just a woman, you know. And . And
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
There is no kind of overall industry. There may be, but I'm sure BBC will know exactly what the stats are. They're not being shared with us as becomes, but we're not asking directly. Maybe we should, but we would love to know what it looks like behind the scenes at Sky sports. You know, we'd love to know. It looks like behind the scenes across the print media, because our stats are showing it doesn't look great.
So let's find out what the picture is. We know it's not good. It's not going to be a good news story. It's fine. Let's just crack on with what we're actually going to do and and have a plan from there. In terms of some of the things that beacons have done. So in. recognising that pathways into the industry are incredibly hard. So people are just putting an application in, sorry, you unsuccessful.
What I've discovered through my career is actually this is a contacts business. This is about who you know, this is about them understanding who you are. This is about understanding where the opportunities are. So we put together what we've called our Beacons Academy. It's 25 young people in the north, 25 young people in the south. And across the year they will go into different places like the BBC, like ITV, like TNT, Sky news, UK, etcetera, etcetera.
And they will do. masterclasses so they will understand the environment, but they also allow the industry to see these young people. And as a result of the masterclasses we've been doing, we're really, really proud. Our masterclasses in the South have 100% success rate of all 25 young people going into paid work. We're really, really proud of that. In the north it's 70%. So again, it goes to show when you're really.
intentional and you have a plan and you give people an opportunity. This is about opportunity. There is talent there. But when talent doesn't have.
So let's find out what the picture is. We know it's not good. It's not going to be a good news story. It's fine. Let's just crack on with what we're actually going to do and and have a plan from there. In terms of some of the things that beacons have done. So in. recognising that pathways into the industry are incredibly hard. So people are just putting an application in, sorry, you unsuccessful.
What I've discovered through my career is actually this is a contacts business. This is about who you know, this is about them understanding who you are. This is about understanding where the opportunities are. So we put together what we've called our Beacons Academy. It's 25 young people in the north, 25 young people in the south. And across the year they will go into different places like the BBC, like ITV, like TNT, Sky news, UK, etcetera, etcetera.
And they will do. masterclasses so they will understand the environment, but they also allow the industry to see these young people. And as a result of the masterclasses we've been doing, we're really, really proud. Our masterclasses in the South have 100% success rate of all 25 young people going into paid work. We're really, really proud of that. In the north it's 70%. So again, it goes to show when you're really.
intentional and you have a plan and you give people an opportunity. This is about opportunity. There is talent there. But when talent doesn't have.
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
You know, again, it just drifts away. And then people work in different areas of the industry. So I can only really talk to the work that I've been involved in helping to deliver. And there are people that work for beacons that deliver this and are specialists in working with younger people. They are not journalists. They are working with organising young people to get them into places. The
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
And engaged with this. In the North, it's the BBC and specifically who support that. In the South we've got some commercial funding from Nike to be able to kind of do things. We want to scale up this work. Journalists aren't necessarily good at getting funding, so it's not our our skill set. But but there are things that can potentially be done if there's a unified approach to these problems. And I'd say on these.
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15:32
Richard Quigley
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Richard Quigley
If we're going to hold people to account, we have to hold ourselves to account as part of that. That's interesting that you say that, you know, it's tracking, which is great. You know, it's four times the average we're hearing in the industry. But what is, you know, what is stopping that other 10%? There's obviously something. fundamental out there that's stopping it happening. So just in terms of the apprenticeship point and access one way or another is you're saying.
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
You're in, I think quite simply, it's a plan and a plan. If we sat here to make more money, we would all have a plan, right? We would have things that we measure. We would have things that we do. People would be accountable. If someone didn't do their job properly, they might get sacked. With this. It's just chip shop. It's just rely on an. individual who might give a monkeys and put all the all the pressure and kind of pat them on the back, etc.,
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Alex Brewer
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Alex Brewer
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Alex Brewer
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Alex Brewer
Which actually I think was because there was a plan, but I, I totally agree with you. There was not a plan across the industry. And I think that that's very different. And actually, it can be very powerful when you work together. And I remember conversations we had with channel four when they were doing the Paralympics, because obviously they brought a lot of, you know, disability athletes into their team and we didn't want them to just disappear.
So I think we tried to find ways of actually whether whether opportunities. So I do think cross cross collaboration. But I do think the legacy, the legacy media are shrinking. And I think that actually you could they could do a lot more. But in the end, I think there is a bit of a free for all going on over here. And I think it's how we , we can support people more with within that, because that's probably where the opportunities are for the future.
And that's where we will achieve maybe long term greater, greater equality. And I remember, I think it was your comment, you said, is this something we have to do? I would I would personally very much dispute that. I think it was seen as. incredibly in in terms of having that relationship with your, with your, with your, with your audience. So I, I'm not trying to get the legacy media off the hook by any means.
It's not perfect. Far from it. But I worry more around where the future opportunities are coming from. And . In
So I think we tried to find ways of actually whether whether opportunities. So I do think cross cross collaboration. But I do think the legacy, the legacy media are shrinking. And I think that actually you could they could do a lot more. But in the end, I think there is a bit of a free for all going on over here. And I think it's how we , we can support people more with within that, because that's probably where the opportunities are for the future.
And that's where we will achieve maybe long term greater, greater equality. And I remember, I think it was your comment, you said, is this something we have to do? I would I would personally very much dispute that. I think it was seen as. incredibly in in terms of having that relationship with your, with your, with your, with your audience. So I, I'm not trying to get the legacy media off the hook by any means.
It's not perfect. Far from it. But I worry more around where the future opportunities are coming from. And . In
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
many ways a broader, a broader mindset. Just very briefly, going back to the stats again, I suppose SGA is in a unique position in that we've got a wide range of membership. So our we've got close to a thousand members and around 12% of those are women. So again, that 12%, 10%, 12% figures are coming in again. Interestingly, we've also got an SGA Academy, which has around. 500 members. These are young people trying to get into the industry who we help and support.
And that percentage of women is about 25 to 30%. So there's something happening there between people wanting to get into the industry and being interested and then eventually getting . Into the
And that percentage of women is about 25 to 30%. So there's something happening there between people wanting to get into the industry and being interested and then eventually getting . Into the
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Alex Brewer
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Alex Brewer
industry. So that's just going back to some stats, but I think that's where the role models are really important. And when we've got fantastic role models and Natalie mentioned it, didn't she, in Clare Balding and Gabby Logan and Kelly Cates, I think it gives to young women , this is an industry that actually can welcome me. And , and so I do think that there is a big time lag, but I think it's absolutely crucial that we.
celebrate some. fantastic women. broadcasters who have, you know, overcome, I'm sure, huge challenges in getting to their, their, their position. But I think that that does open the door and allows people to, to sort of, if you like, see.
celebrate some. fantastic women. broadcasters who have, you know, overcome, I'm sure, huge challenges in getting to their, their, their position. But I think that that does open the door and allows people to, to sort of, if you like, see.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Which we commissioned internally, which I'm happy to share with with you, and came up with some recommendations about how we can improve the shortlist because it's important that those role models exist. A lot of women were telling us, you know, it's a model for excellence. It can. Even having an award can be career changing. You see journalists being interviewed on television and they've always got their a trophy in the.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
We did a number of other things like looking for workshops and mentoring. That was something that was really came up out of it. What happened though? We lost our major funding partner. We're going to go back to money now. We lost our major sponsor. And then for 18 months after that, we were spending our time just trying to get this award ceremony to happen.
And we're all volunteers on the committee. And this was just like, that was our priority. It wouldn't have happened. So now since April, when we had our awards, we have improved the number of people, women on the shortlist. That has.
And we're all volunteers on the committee. And this was just like, that was our priority. It wouldn't have happened. So now since April, when we had our awards, we have improved the number of people, women on the shortlist. That has.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
But it's still not where it should be. But we've also implemented a new structure on the committee where I've asked for. subcommittee groups, one in particular looking at inclusion and. diversity .. So they can concentrate on that, because what we found is we were all concentrated on trying to get the award ceremony off the ground, and we weren't looking at the other aspects that we should have done. So yeah, that's that's and the mentorship is something key to that, something very .
Key to
Key to
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Kim Leadbeater
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Kim Leadbeater
next year or so. Thank you. Thank you, chair. Thank you, chair, and thank you all for coming. Ashley. It's always good to hear a good, strong Yorkshire accent in Parliament. And as in true Yorkshire style, it does always come back to money. You're quite right, Barbara. I'm going to start with you if I can, and I'll just disclose that I had the pleasure of coming to see you at BBC sport.
I think it's about four years ago and had a fantastic visit. So thank you very much for that, and I hope you're enjoying the freedom of being able to speak a bit more freely, maybe now than you could. But you've touched on this in terms of role models, both in terms of presenters, particularly talked about, but in terms of having women in senior decision making roles when it comes to. recruitment .
I think it's about four years ago and had a fantastic visit. So thank you very much for that, and I hope you're enjoying the freedom of being able to speak a bit more freely, maybe now than you could. But you've touched on this in terms of role models, both in terms of presenters, particularly talked about, but in terms of having women in senior decision making roles when it comes to. recruitment .
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Alex Brewer
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Alex Brewer
You know, there's a long way to go when you feel very lonely at times. Yeah. I'm afraid, I wish I wish it didn't, it didn't. But and I think there's sort of lots of lots of complicated reasons for that, you know, often, you know, you've got a very, very talented woman and, you know, for personal reasons, they, they, they decide other things are more important. A work life balance, I think is incredibly relevant here, you know, because it's a, it is a very competitive industry.
And, you know, and, you know, I think that, you know. Natalie spoke spoke very, very, very, very well on that. And there is a, there is a pressure and that doesn't necessarily always work with family life. I think that should be somehow recognised and built in. I think it is better. significantly better.
And, you know, and, you know, I think that, you know. Natalie spoke spoke very, very, very, very well on that. And there is a, there is a pressure and that doesn't necessarily always work with family life. I think that should be somehow recognised and built in. I think it is better. significantly better.
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Alex Brewer
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Alex Brewer
And I hope that over the next six years, we'll see far more women coming, coming through. And interesting. I mean, look, when I joined, it was many, many years ago, if you'd said to me they would ever have been a head of department, there was a woman, I would have laughed at you. And I've said, that is simply not possible. I would now say that if you have got the absolute steel and. determination and the talent that that you can, you can aspire to all sorts of roles.
You know, we have a woman chair of the FA. If I look at across UK sport, what an amazing track record of really impressive senior women. You know, Liz Nicol comes to mind. Sally Munday, you know, women who are. absolutely shaping British. sport at that level. So I, I think massive.
You know, we have a woman chair of the FA. If I look at across UK sport, what an amazing track record of really impressive senior women. You know, Liz Nicol comes to mind. Sally Munday, you know, women who are. absolutely shaping British. sport at that level. So I, I think massive.
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Kim Leadbeater
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Kim Leadbeater
Progress is made. But whoa, it's not there yet. Just on that point, going back to Richard's question about apprenticeships, we were fortunate to be able to go to Sky sports this morning, and we met some absolutely outstanding young female apprenticeships on their scheme, and that was a scheme I didn't know about, which was extremely impressive. And you could tell that those four young women had got huge futures ahead of them. But in terms of the barriers that they may .
Face,
Face,
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Alex Brewer
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Alex Brewer
what do you think the biggest barriers are that might stop them from progressing? I suppose it is some of the attitudes that they will. encounter because sadly, there are quite a few dinosaurs still out there, and I thought it was very interesting. Somebody talked about allyship, and allyship is really, really, really important. And, and seeking those out and rewarding those that. demonstrate that.
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
within the sports media. sector change over time? Yeah, we had this question at our. conference two weeks ago. I did a conference and there were varied answers from those in the room. So I have my perspective, and I'll probably start with that. In terms of saying things have absolutely changed. We're seeing Jeanette quite key, for example, who is on our board. She's emerged from being a former athlete into now being a main major part of the BBC's talent team.
Reshmin Chowdhury is an Asian woman who's come through from Real Madrid TV to being on TNT as a lead presenter for them. There are. examples that that things have got better, but but but not enough. So many of the people at the conference would shout me down for saying this here. And so it's important to share that perspective as well, because for them, they said things haven't changed at all, which for me, I don't think that's the case.
But they feel in terms of their industry, they're feeling that things haven't changed at all, which is an interesting feeling. In terms of the stats, it would be great to like show what has changed so people can, you know, have a look at what's changed, but how they're feeling, they're feeling that things haven't changed. And I think sometimes when we talk about role models and change, it's kind of like, who are we talking about? You know, are we talking about women of colour? Are we talking about women who wear hijab? Are we talking about, you know, the wide spectrum of what it means to be a woman or to be diverse? Because often, you know, and Barbara, this is not a slight on what you're saying at all, because those are very good examples.
But those are all white women. Many of them have. incredible support. networks to help them achieve. And that's not saying that it would have been easier for them at all, because if your dad is a famous footballer, you will have other challenges in the workplace because people will assume you're being given things. So it's a complex conversation. It's not kind of a straight line thing. And again, many people at that conference would shout me down for even sharing that perspective here because they don't feel that's the case.
They feel people get favours because of who their family members are, etc. but I believe it's much more complex than that, and that's what I would want to represent here. But but things are getting better, but they're not getting better for everybody. A lot of the young black and Asian women who are coming into the. industry are seeing the Jeanette's, the regimens, the Alex Scott's, etc. on screen and going, I want to be like them.
But but the pathway is is incredibly tricky. And many of them haven't won gold medals in Olympics or been in Olympics. Many of them haven't played 400 times for their country or won major medals in football in this in this country, or been athletes at all. So so they begin to question things. And I guess that's where a Richmond Chowdhury becomes more of an achievable role model, because she's presenting the Champions League on TNT as somebody who hasn't kicked a ball.
Sorry if you're watching and you have, but as far as I know, she's a good friend of mine. She hasn't played professionally. She's worked through those professional layers. So so we need to consider all of those things when we're kind of talking about who the role models are and who gets opportunities and chances. Because I have a major. problem going into a school in Tottenham, in.
Reshmin Chowdhury is an Asian woman who's come through from Real Madrid TV to being on TNT as a lead presenter for them. There are. examples that that things have got better, but but but not enough. So many of the people at the conference would shout me down for saying this here. And so it's important to share that perspective as well, because for them, they said things haven't changed at all, which for me, I don't think that's the case.
But they feel in terms of their industry, they're feeling that things haven't changed at all, which is an interesting feeling. In terms of the stats, it would be great to like show what has changed so people can, you know, have a look at what's changed, but how they're feeling, they're feeling that things haven't changed. And I think sometimes when we talk about role models and change, it's kind of like, who are we talking about? You know, are we talking about women of colour? Are we talking about women who wear hijab? Are we talking about, you know, the wide spectrum of what it means to be a woman or to be diverse? Because often, you know, and Barbara, this is not a slight on what you're saying at all, because those are very good examples.
But those are all white women. Many of them have. incredible support. networks to help them achieve. And that's not saying that it would have been easier for them at all, because if your dad is a famous footballer, you will have other challenges in the workplace because people will assume you're being given things. So it's a complex conversation. It's not kind of a straight line thing. And again, many people at that conference would shout me down for even sharing that perspective here because they don't feel that's the case.
They feel people get favours because of who their family members are, etc. but I believe it's much more complex than that, and that's what I would want to represent here. But but things are getting better, but they're not getting better for everybody. A lot of the young black and Asian women who are coming into the. industry are seeing the Jeanette's, the regimens, the Alex Scott's, etc. on screen and going, I want to be like them.
But but the pathway is is incredibly tricky. And many of them haven't won gold medals in Olympics or been in Olympics. Many of them haven't played 400 times for their country or won major medals in football in this in this country, or been athletes at all. So so they begin to question things. And I guess that's where a Richmond Chowdhury becomes more of an achievable role model, because she's presenting the Champions League on TNT as somebody who hasn't kicked a ball.
Sorry if you're watching and you have, but as far as I know, she's a good friend of mine. She hasn't played professionally. She's worked through those professional layers. So so we need to consider all of those things when we're kind of talking about who the role models are and who gets opportunities and chances. Because I have a major. problem going into a school in Tottenham, in.
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Kim Leadbeater
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Kim Leadbeater
That most schools don't even talk about those jobs. So most kids don't even know those jobs exist. So I think there's maybe a piece of work to be done there in terms of and we talked a lot about race. We've talked a lot about gender. And I guess with lots of other issues, there will be an intersection with disability and LGBT communities as well. So what do you think the most important intervention is to.
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Who's a good example of someone who's amazing, who's made his way through again, former athlete in terms of his pathway into the presenter seat. But I think we don't have enough. information and knowledge around those experiences. We don't have enough data to refer back into. So I can give you a view, but it's very, very much based on my experience of the world as a straight man of mixed heritage from north London.
And that might be of value, but it's kind of again, it's not kind of anchored in all the things that if you're trying to change any industry, it would be around data, it would be around serious knowledge, it would be around bringing serious expertise. It would be about a pathway plan. It would be about what are we saying to our universities? What are we saying to our media schools? They're calling me going. We're not getting enough diverse people from the colleges.
I'm going. Right. Okay. That's another problem to add to the list to solve. If we're all really joined up about this, we can do some amazing things. I'm really positive about it because the change that we've had, in my view, has come down to. individuals who care and have done things and have made decisions as.
And that might be of value, but it's kind of again, it's not kind of anchored in all the things that if you're trying to change any industry, it would be around data, it would be around serious knowledge, it would be around bringing serious expertise. It would be about a pathway plan. It would be about what are we saying to our universities? What are we saying to our media schools? They're calling me going. We're not getting enough diverse people from the colleges.
I'm going. Right. Okay. That's another problem to add to the list to solve. If we're all really joined up about this, we can do some amazing things. I'm really positive about it because the change that we've had, in my view, has come down to. individuals who care and have done things and have made decisions as.
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
But that's what it is. It's like there's a woman at the BBC, formerly of the BBC, Shelley Alexander. She said, Leon, I reckon you could, you could do something at the BBC one day. And I was an anti-racism. campaigner and I was like, oh really? You think I could? Because I've always wanted to do that, but never saw anyone who looked like me, who was doing it.
And what about Garth Crooks? I said, well, he played 400 games for Tottenham Hotspur and the top league, so I'm all right at football, but I'm not that good. So like, what is the plan? What are the conversations? And I must say, I've been really, really encouraged by the individual conversations I've had from very senior leaders right at the top of Sky, TNT, the.
And what about Garth Crooks? I said, well, he played 400 games for Tottenham Hotspur and the top league, so I'm all right at football, but I'm not that good. So like, what is the plan? What are the conversations? And I must say, I've been really, really encouraged by the individual conversations I've had from very senior leaders right at the top of Sky, TNT, the.
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Rachel Taylor
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Rachel Taylor
But we are going to have to whizz through them. I think both questions and answers would be great. I mean, it's interesting you're talking about the the pathways for for people who have been fairly famous athletes or sports people. And that's kind of where our inquiry first started about. participation in sport more. broadly from , from the playing. But, but moving on from that, Ashley, I'll come to you first. In your experience, how.
supportive is the sports media. sector .
supportive is the sports media. sector .
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Of employees with family or caring responsibilities? Yeah, I mean, I can only look at it through what I oversee at PA. You know, I came from a news background. So when I was at PA in the news desk and then moved to the sports desk, and I saw that there was far less women. And it was something that, you know, it was quite stark. I put in place some. initiatives that have had some success with for the Paris Olympics, for example, we sent eight reporters and I insisted on it being 50/50 gender split.
We've improved our maternity leave. We've we've got a woman CEO and a woman chief people officer right at the top of the business, which is really. encouraging and great role models. And, and to Leon's point, it's been a slow process, though. So now we've got a deputy sports editor who's a woman, but that's taken some years because people remain in the positions a long time and the industry is shrinking.
So put those two things together and you've got.
We've improved our maternity leave. We've we've got a woman CEO and a woman chief people officer right at the top of the business, which is really. encouraging and great role models. And, and to Leon's point, it's been a slow process, though. So now we've got a deputy sports editor who's a woman, but that's taken some years because people remain in the positions a long time and the industry is shrinking.
So put those two things together and you've got.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
You've got blockers there. And that is something has to be. overcome somehow and very quickly. On to Leon's point about collaboration. That is something that came out in our report about the awards, in that we've got all these amazing groups. Women in football. becomes the SGA. We do talk, but we're not talking well enough together. And I think if we can, with the support of government, then I think it could be a much more.
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Alex Brewer
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Alex Brewer
widely? Yeah. There's a different sort of culture in the workplace. There's maybe a bit of a legacy issue there that I think over time, will will be overcome. I believe it will. So there's there's probably a starting point that, in a way, going back to sort of expertise, you know, do women have the expertise? I mean, hopefully that's just something a myth that's just, you know, we can get rid of of.
Of course. But I just think there's a bit of a time lag. So I think it is tougher in sports journalism. Yes, I think it is. And there's probably still a reluctance to maybe have women talking about men's sport that isn't. sufficiently in place. And I also think one of the the big. challenges around what you was just saying is it is increasingly a freelance world.
And I do think that we should not lose sight of the fact that I think that does. disadvantage women. because there isn't there there is not the workplace. protections for a very, very freelance driven culture. And I would say that that's and as as as legacy .
Of course. But I just think there's a bit of a time lag. So I think it is tougher in sports journalism. Yes, I think it is. And there's probably still a reluctance to maybe have women talking about men's sport that isn't. sufficiently in place. And I also think one of the the big. challenges around what you was just saying is it is increasingly a freelance world.
And I do think that we should not lose sight of the fact that I think that does. disadvantage women. because there isn't there there is not the workplace. protections for a very, very freelance driven culture. And I would say that that's and as as as legacy .
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
thought there would be an opportunity there to. diversify your your workforce because for years we were told, well, actually there's no jobs here. So there's very little movement. And to kind of address the question beforehand about sport versus the wider media, it kind of feels like lots of people don't leave . Sport
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
It is true, it is true. But not just in journalism. No, but but really, I would flip this on its head and say, okay, we've got more freelance opportunities, so you have more opportunities to choose who you have coming in. You're not wedded to the person who won't move from their contract because they're waiting for the Olympics in LA, so you can have more freedom of movement in terms of who you choose to employ, employ more women, more freelancers.
I think there's maybe an opportunity there, but and that would actually, I think, suit the kind of trends I'm seeing with many of the young people who don't actually want a full time job. necessarily at the BBC, because they can do their content. creation and then they can do their kind of production work, and they can live between those, those two worlds and have a more interesting, maybe career as opposed to being on one path. I .
Think it'd
I think there's maybe an opportunity there, but and that would actually, I think, suit the kind of trends I'm seeing with many of the young people who don't actually want a full time job. necessarily at the BBC, because they can do their content. creation and then they can do their kind of production work, and they can live between those, those two worlds and have a more interesting, maybe career as opposed to being on one path. I .
Think it'd
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Rosie Duffield
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Rosie Duffield
Thank you very much. Thank you chair. Thank you, thank you. Rachel. Rosie, over to you. Thank you, Chair Barbara. First, what's your assessment of how effectively broadcasters approach the safeguarding of their staff, particularly those in the public eye? And I'm really mindful of the fact that actually, this is all to do with the fact that we're essentially in a Wild West . Situation
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Alex Brewer
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Alex Brewer
Because I just think this is a massive issue and there is only so much an employer can do. And by the way, I think there is a real appetite to offer support and help in these circumstances. But it's incredibly difficult. And I suppose, and I know I'm reaching way beyond the powers probably of this group, but I suppose I just don't understand how it's. possible for people to be so abusive and without them being. identified and called to account.
You know, if if a newspaper published an article that defamed somebody or what have you, I mean, there would be consequences. Yet it seems to me entirely possible that you can say what you like, however. derogatory and you know, in and nothing is done. And I know, and I'm sure other organisations are the same. You know, there is a. moderation of the comments. So there are people who are acting as a filter.
So if if there are comments, but that's that is controlled within only that.
You know, if if a newspaper published an article that defamed somebody or what have you, I mean, there would be consequences. Yet it seems to me entirely possible that you can say what you like, however. derogatory and you know, in and nothing is done. And I know, and I'm sure other organisations are the same. You know, there is a. moderation of the comments. So there are people who are acting as a filter.
So if if there are comments, but that's that is controlled within only that.
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
do you feel a bit lost as well? Like, how do you control that? Yeah, I know, kick it out. I've done a lot of work in this space, particularly around the protection of many of the footballers. And Sanjay Bhandari as as chair has done loads and loads in this space. You know, what we're seeing and hearing from our journalists is kind of very, very similar to what Flo was sharing earlier. You share an opinion on something.
There's a big pile on. I've noticed what feels like a real. coordinated response to some of the things that I might say on social media, where I almost feel like what I've said is just putting a WhatsApp group of the far right or forums on the far right, because like, there's so much engagement on that particular post and there's not on other bits. So it's something that we need to be aware of.
We know all the challenges that there are with freedom of speech, etcetera.
There's a big pile on. I've noticed what feels like a real. coordinated response to some of the things that I might say on social media, where I almost feel like what I've said is just putting a WhatsApp group of the far right or forums on the far right, because like, there's so much engagement on that particular post and there's not on other bits. So it's something that we need to be aware of.
We know all the challenges that there are with freedom of speech, etcetera.
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
And the dynamic that exists. But it will. absolutely put off young women from becoming journalists. It will put off people of colour, it will put off, it's going to put off so, so many people at the London Olympics in 2012, when it wasn't how it was now, I saw household names jump off social media because they just couldn't deal with the abuse and do their job in the best possible way I was.
I was shocked, but that was the reality that they faced. They could not . Do their
I was shocked, but that was the reality that they faced. They could not . Do their
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Isn't it? Social media companies have responsibility. Yeah, and it should be them who we are telling, whether there's legislation that can be done around it or. But surely that is like Barbara said, if we publish something that defames someone, you know, we would be held to account for that through, you know, ipso or through the courts. But, you know, it's just it is the Wild West, as you say.
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
traced back to individuals. Well, it would be interesting to see what the. interventions around porn have been in terms of. registering your passport or whatever read in the news and the. impacts that that has had. positively in that space. That would be interesting to kind of review that, because I do believe there needs to be some regulation. regulation here, clearly. And if that.
involves you using a particular platform in this country, you have to share your, your, your details. I understand in other parts of the country, parts in the world. Sorry. So I've heard the argument for if you're in the Middle East, actually sharing your details was one example that I'd heard could be kind of dangerous for you using that platform, I understand that. Do we have a different situation here in the UK? That actually means we should be asking people to kind of register their passport, their details.
I don't think we've had that. conversation loudly enough, in my opinion, because something needs . To
involves you using a particular platform in this country, you have to share your, your, your details. I understand in other parts of the country, parts in the world. Sorry. So I've heard the argument for if you're in the Middle East, actually sharing your details was one example that I'd heard could be kind of dangerous for you using that platform, I understand that. Do we have a different situation here in the UK? That actually means we should be asking people to kind of register their passport, their details.
I don't think we've had that. conversation loudly enough, in my opinion, because something needs . To
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Christine Jardine
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Christine Jardine
Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Over to you. Thank you very much. Just I was remarking when you were all out, this is quite odd for me because I worked for both the Press Association and the BBC in my career. So deja vu. But Barbara, I wonder if I could ask you, what factors do you think are. influencing the. prominence given . To
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Alex Brewer
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Alex Brewer
and the volume of women's sports broadcasting? Now, that's I mean, firstly, I think that huge progress has been made. And and I think we have major events which have actually, I think, really ignited interest in women's sport. And I think that they've provided a great platform. I think it is a struggle, though, and I think the truth is that the economic climate. We're in the cutbacks to something like, you know, your public service.
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Alex Brewer
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Alex Brewer
A massive challenge. And I think there are massive opportunities in the digital space, you know, example of netball, because the challenge there is getting the eyeballs to that content. So there is now, compared with even relatively. unprecedented choice. Governing bodies are individually able to cover their events. And they might not have a. traditional media partner, but there is YouTube and other.
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Alex Brewer
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Alex Brewer
there's broadcasting in the digital space. The problem is, how do you let an audience know it's happening? And so on the one hand, you've got massive. opportunity and on the other you've got the the challenge of audience ever finding that comment. But I don't think we should lose sight of the importance of those pinnacle moments because that, that that I think the. success across a number of events, including women's football, women's rugby, etc., and our on our athletes across Olympic sports, have.
fundamentally shifted an attitude and a mindset to women's sport. And I think we should not lose sight of. I think the big challenge is how to keep that momentum going and how to build from it, because those pinnacle moments, I mean, you know, the women's football was one of the most watched television programmes of the year. I mean, of anything of dramas, of comedies, of etcetera. That was extraordinary. You think about that a few years ago, people would have said, that's that's.
fundamentally shifted an attitude and a mindset to women's sport. And I think we should not lose sight of. I think the big challenge is how to keep that momentum going and how to build from it, because those pinnacle moments, I mean, you know, the women's football was one of the most watched television programmes of the year. I mean, of anything of dramas, of comedies, of etcetera. That was extraordinary. You think about that a few years ago, people would have said, that's that's.
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Alex Brewer
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Alex Brewer
appeals to as broad a section of the of the population as you can, accepting that in a public service space, you can take risks, you can take more. risks than you can't. If you're a predominantly commercially driven model. And I would say we've, we've , we've seen that the evidence of that. So so it's, it's a, it's a moment of, of, of concern. But but I don't think we should lose sight of progress made.
And I think one of the challenges. How do you let people know there is actually a really huge volume of coverage of . Women's
And I think one of the challenges. How do you let people know there is actually a really huge volume of coverage of . Women's
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Alex Brewer
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Alex Brewer
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
When people want to make money, they make big decisions and they do big things. Just on the amount of content of women's sport, it has increased. I mean, we've seen a lot of. newspapers put some in Premier League still rules, as we've said at the by the earlier the earlier panel we've introduced at the Women's Football Journalist Award to recognise how much reporting goes into that now and then with my PA hat on, we ripped up our spec some 5 or 6 years ago.
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16:16
16:16
16:17
16:17
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Thank you, thank you. You've all given brilliant evidence this afternoon. Thank you. I just have one final question just to ask Barbara before we close. And I think I think the general theme of everything we've heard this afternoon is that you've said things probably are getting better. Yes, but we started off at the beginning with not enough applications that are coming in for the jobs. Yes. Even now.
And we've also talked about the challenge of there's athletes being translated across because they kind of come with the currency of having that prominence. Yes. So yes, things are getting better and that's good to hear. But from your rich.
And we've also talked about the challenge of there's athletes being translated across because they kind of come with the currency of having that prominence. Yes. So yes, things are getting better and that's good to hear. But from your rich.
16:17
16:17
16:17
Alex Brewer
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Alex Brewer
the reason that there are not more women in that application pile? Well, I think it's where you're recruiting from. So I think you've got to track it right back down to the universities. And I certainly remember we, we, we, when I was in post, we did work with universities and we were always. incredibly taken by. universities for which equality was, was, was important. And it was interesting for some universities, it just wasn't an issue that they were even considering.
So, you know, I've gone and lectured and. spoken and, and, and, you know, you look across a room of people and, oh, yes, there's a woman at the back and it literally is like that. So, so I think it is this isn't this isn't just a top end issue. It's got to go right the way down and almost to the. playground where, you know, if you're in a. playground and chances are the girls are standing around the outside and the boys are playing football.
And it's, it's that. rooted in in and so that so I don't think we're going to see big changes until there is more societal change, which in a way is why I think if you go to the top end, it's where you want attitudes and mindsets to change towards women's sport that it's seen to be. It's got credibility, it's got kudos. It's I want to be that champion footballer. I want to win that medal at the games.
And okay, a lot of people won't be able to do that. But I still think it opens doors to a role in the industry. And we shouldn't just look at journalism. If this is a whole.
So, you know, I've gone and lectured and. spoken and, and, and, you know, you look across a room of people and, oh, yes, there's a woman at the back and it literally is like that. So, so I think it is this isn't this isn't just a top end issue. It's got to go right the way down and almost to the. playground where, you know, if you're in a. playground and chances are the girls are standing around the outside and the boys are playing football.
And it's, it's that. rooted in in and so that so I don't think we're going to see big changes until there is more societal change, which in a way is why I think if you go to the top end, it's where you want attitudes and mindsets to change towards women's sport that it's seen to be. It's got credibility, it's got kudos. It's I want to be that champion footballer. I want to win that medal at the games.
And okay, a lot of people won't be able to do that. But I still think it opens doors to a role in the industry. And we shouldn't just look at journalism. If this is a whole.
16:19
16:19
Alex Brewer
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Alex Brewer
There's a massive technical roles there, which again, is a massive space of opportunity. And again, we sit very male dominated. We don't see women. And if you probably go to the technical colleges, I haven't been I don't know, I have to admit, but I suspect you're going to see a similar balance. So your your nursery slopes, if you . Like, your training
16:19