Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee
Tuesday 27th October 2026
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10:02
Henry Tufnell
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Henry Tufnell
And a real opportunity. And I've been conscious that the government has been working really hard on a whole range of areas, including the land use framework, the farming roadmap and other initiatives representing a constituency that looks to the sea for its food and for its livelihood is a real pleasure and really conscious that actually it's been a very challenging time for farmers across the country. We always say that farmers are used to dealing with change, but they don't take resilience, you know, for granted. And that's why I've been really keen to get out and about across the country, to engage with our fishermen and our farmers on the issues and challenges that they face.
It's very clear to me that as a result of that, we need to do more to support the resilience of the sector across our country.
It's very clear to me that as a result of that, we need to do more to support the resilience of the sector across our country.
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Alistair Carmichael
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Alistair Carmichael
Okay. Right. I want to start this morning by looking at a few issues around fisheries. You know, the committee has its inquiry into fisheries and the marine environment. We have published our first report, Resetting the Relationship with Fishing Communities. We've had your response. Read it short. You're quite happy with the relationship between the industry and the communities and the government.
10:04
Henry Tufnell
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Henry Tufnell
We want to work in partnership with fishing and seafood sectors. There's lots of ways that government already does that. I've made it a priority in my first few months in post representing Portsmouth South with a small fishing community. I'm not complacent, and that's why I'm really keen to engage with communities across the country, which is why I visited Newlyn. I've been up to Scotland, to Fraserburgh and Peterhead, I've been to Weymouth, I've been to Grimsby to meet fishermen directly, to talk to processors and others.
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10:04
Henry Tufnell
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Henry Tufnell
So we do engage already through regional fisheries groups, and we've certainly taken on board the feedback with regards to improved communication with the MMO. I've also spent time with the MMO in Portsmouth as well. I think there's lots of ways that the department already engages with the fishing community, but there's always more we can do. But I want to make sure that engagement is meaningful and improves outcomes to drive the agenda that we want to see, which is a thriving, sustainable fishing community.
10:05
Henry Tufnell
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Henry Tufnell
There are already structures in place. There's online meetings, there's physical meetings. I've been very impressed by how I've seen the MMO engaging with the fishing community. You know, there's obviously work in hand around negotiations currently, but I regularly engage with the fishing community. I've established a regular forum to meet with representative bodies as well.
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Henry Tufnell
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Henry Tufnell
Well, I welcome the work of the Appg for fisheries, and I'm due to meet representatives of the Appg in the next few days. And what strikes me coming into post is there isn't a particularly clear strategy around fisheries, so therefore I will use the feedback from this committee and from the Appg to set out a direction of travel to support our fisheries communities for the future.
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Henry Tufnell
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Henry Tufnell
Of course. And obviously, I've seen the kind of principles for the negotiations. I can't get into the detail of what those negotiations will look like, but obviously my engagement with the sector has been key to those negotiations, as has some of the visits that I've done to Norway and other places, to understand some of the issues and challenges.
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Ben Goldsborough
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Ben Goldsborough
So so but our starting point is the science. There's been a lot of work over the last year or so with Icss, the International Council for the exploration of the seas to look specifically at all the scientific questions around Cod, including the sub stock question. They've set up a Tiger team. Actually, the minister isn't aware. We had a letter yesterday from ISIS thanking the UK scientists for the contribution that that gives a base a reasonable basis, with a range of scenarios for negotiation that will then take place for northern cod between EU, UK and Norway.
A zero TAC advice is always extremely difficult, including because of the risk of closing other fisheries if you can't have any bycatch. So it is complicated.
A zero TAC advice is always extremely difficult, including because of the risk of closing other fisheries if you can't have any bycatch. So it is complicated.
10:09
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Ben Goldsborough
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Ben Goldsborough
Has to be given to other measures. So there's been work throughout the year with the sector as well on additional measures such as spatial closures or other forms of closure that could provide stock protection that allows some fisheries and other fisheries to continue. But as the minister says, this is like negotiations.
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Ben Goldsborough
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Ben Goldsborough
We might, I don't know, the very latest formal assessment as we were part of the Ices Tiger team. That does suggest there is still uncertainty around the sub stock and the. In the southern North Sea in particular. And there are ways in which scientists are trying to understand the different recovery potentials of the sub stocks, but they are all managed as a single stock in these negotiations. But those are the things that the expert negotiators, not just from the UK but from other countries, work through and where we take industry positions. So last week we received material, for example, from the some of the Scottish whitefish producers setting out alternative ways in which you could manage this fishery.
So those are some of the inputs you would take into this kind of negotiation.
So those are some of the inputs you would take into this kind of negotiation.
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10:11
Henry Tufnell
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Henry Tufnell
10:11
Henry Tufnell
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Henry Tufnell
Well, I am aware of the challenges around Shetland in particular, which is why I've written to you and said I'm keen to come up to Shetland next month or indeed in December. Obviously under the current terms it's a reciprocal relationship between the UK and Norway. So therefore Norwegian vessels can come into UK waters and vice versa. But I'm conscious about the balance and obviously we will continue to engage with stakeholders on these issues to make sure UK interests are at the heart.
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Ben Goldsborough
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Ben Goldsborough
So there's an overall balance, as the Minister said, within the reciprocal access for some parts of the fleet that access is working really well. For others, there's the imbalance. You've talked about our interests working with the sector, and we met them yesterday to Fisher Level, and they wrote to the minister yesterday to follow up and to thank thank officials for the engagement and with the Scottish Government will be to to find the best UK position and then to try and secure the best outcome with with Norway.
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Alistair Carmichael
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Alistair Carmichael
It's good to see specifically, you heard me speak about the Norwegian fishing trawler, the half strand, 70 metre refrigerated trawler, 787 tonnes of sea in one trip. So put that into context. That's 50% of what the entire Shetland fleet has for a whole year, and 12% of the UK quota for safe in the North Sea. If you drill down, though bad though, these statistics are, the catch ups suggest that, in fact the majority of that catch is smaller size safe, which we should be leaving in the sea really, shouldn't we? So safe is according to ices, a a species that is under biological pressure.
So it's subject to overall TAC reductions this year. The deal that you did last year, do you think that helps or hinders that?
So it's subject to overall TAC reductions this year. The deal that you did last year, do you think that helps or hinders that?
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Ben Goldsborough
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Ben Goldsborough
Well, I don't know that I'd have phrased the question in that way. The way that we take forward the negotiations is to secure outcomes that are backed by the science and reflect the science. And that does include things like catch composition and the the state of the stock, not by year class. We have a good understanding of that. And then we. So that's what goes into the overall TAC announcements, agreements. And then through the negotiations on access that that doesn't undermine that science.
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Ben Goldsborough
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Ben Goldsborough
I don't have enough information to happen. I'm sorry about any particular pressures for that stock around, you know, more beyond the kind of overall stock level. What I can say is these are all issues that the that we have been talking through. We had the Shetland Fishermen's Association yesterday. They followed up with the minister. And they're all of these sorts of things are exactly what goes on the table to try and get a good a good outcome. Noting that there are more interests than just safe in the UK, Norway access arrangements, and that overall in these things, there are other access to other stocks that might be of interest to other parts of the fleet.
I don't have the full details of the full arrangement. As you say, it's up to 30,000 tonnes, and there's different elements of the the fleet that are interested in different parts of it. And in fact, the Shetland Fishermen's Association letter to our letter to the Minister is explicit that for some parts of the sector, the agreement is working well, but they're worried about all the issues you've been raising around safe large vessels, large catches and small fish. So all of those are live issues in discussions.
I don't have the full details of the full arrangement. As you say, it's up to 30,000 tonnes, and there's different elements of the the fleet that are interested in different parts of it. And in fact, the Shetland Fishermen's Association letter to our letter to the Minister is explicit that for some parts of the sector, the agreement is working well, but they're worried about all the issues you've been raising around safe large vessels, large catches and small fish. So all of those are live issues in discussions.
10:16
Ben Goldsborough
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Ben Goldsborough
10:16
10:16
Ben Goldsborough
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Ben Goldsborough
Each year. So last year, the sector was not unhappy with the prospect of that agreement. And then what has happened this year has changed the pattern. So then that's the sort of thing that you would then think about reflecting in the next negotiating position. The as I say, the sector wrote to the minister yesterday and they they were specific about their the way they feel confident. They're working with officials to develop these positions that we can take into negotiations. But there will be a balance at the end. The minister will have to agree a balance in those access arrangements.
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Henry Tufnell
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Henry Tufnell
So that's a message I heard loud and clear from my visit to Newlyn to to Weymouth and other ports across the country absolutely recognise the pressures that the industry is under. There's obviously support for fuel via our existing tax system, and we are monitoring the situation very closely to understand the pressures that fishermen are facing.
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10:18
Alistair Carmichael
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Alistair Carmichael
As a consequence of the decisions that were taken by the previous government, and then baked in for another 12 years by this government. Our fishermen are competing with fishing industries in other European countries. Got press notices here. Commission approves €15 million. Irish state aid for fishing and agriculture companies facing increased fuel prices. Commission approves €25 million. Spanish state aid for fishing companies. Commission approves €4.5 million . State. German state aid for fishing and aquaculture companies. These are the people that we are expected to compete against. They are helping. Why are we not helping our industry?
10:19
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Ben Goldsborough
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Ben Goldsborough
A decision for me, obviously. As the minister says, we're looking at his request at options, not least because the sector have asked us to reallocate that funding. They've specifically said we we understand there might not be new funding. Can we reallocate that funding in its own in its own right? That raises questions about whether that's one possible.
10:19
Alistair Carmichael
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Alistair Carmichael
Final question around the SPS agreement. Now we know that you're not going to be able to answer any questions about the SPS agreement, because nobody knows what's in it. You probably are as much in the dark as we are, but can you give me some assurance that you wouldn't sign up to an SPS agreement that would bring into into the field of play fisheries management issues?
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Henry Tufnell
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Henry Tufnell
To protect British interests? I heard loud and clear in Paris last week that benefits an SPS agreement will bring in terms of cheaper, easier exports to other countries and the benefits it will bring our sea fish industry. As I heard loud and clear on my visit to Newlyn. But I obviously can't get into any detail about the negotiations because we've.
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Sarah Dyke
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Sarah Dyke
Good morning. This year has been an exceptionally difficult year for farmers. We've had drought, we've had the chaos around SFI and the worst bluetongue outbreak on record. Particularly badly hit has been the South west. But on top of the immediate costs of the bluetongue vaccination, veterinary treatment and fallen stock, fallen stock collections in the south west ran at 3 to 4 times the normal levels this summer, with charges of up to £35 per sheep and over £160 per cattle. Obviously, disposal is a legal requirement and it's vital for disease control, but when we were looking at this, many farmers are not only concerned with those, those costs that are impacting their farm businesses, but they're also concerned about the longer term losses from reduced fertility and birth defects.
So what support will the government provide to those farmers who've been so badly affected by outbreaks this year?
So what support will the government provide to those farmers who've been so badly affected by outbreaks this year?
10:22
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Henry Tufnell
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Henry Tufnell
Question, sir, and absolutely understand how incredibly difficult it's been for farmers across our country. I've met with the National Sheep Association, met with the NFU, been talking directly to farmers about the challenges that they face on top of other issues around input costs, drought, wildfires, etc. worth saying that as of yesterday, there's now 3445 confirmed cases across the United Kingdom. It's obviously been a significant outbreak this year. I was very keen to get on farm engaging in these issues early on, which is why I visited Cornwall to talk to a farmer that had been affected alongside Tom Bradshaw.
The NFU president absolutely recognised the real challenges that farmers have faced, and that's why I've made it a priority to work through options for further improvement, which is why we worked with industry to support the vaccine supply. While we've reduced some of the admin burdens that farmers have had to face , while we've supported on farm veterinary support, while we've enhanced testing capability, I've been to APhA and Pirbright to see directly what the scientists have been doing in terms of testing capability and more specifically , on fallen stock. We are working through options and monitoring the situation closely, working with industry on future options worth me also saying that in the House when we had an urgent question as well, there are particular issues that were raised around maps and we've improved the heat map, so we know where the confirmed cases are across the country.
So a range of things we've done based on engagement we've had with farmers, but always more we can do, which is why I think it's worth just stressing as well. I'm keen to learn lessons from the outbreak this year. They've already started that process with my officials to make sure what we've learned from this year doesn't get repeated in future years.
The NFU president absolutely recognised the real challenges that farmers have faced, and that's why I've made it a priority to work through options for further improvement, which is why we worked with industry to support the vaccine supply. While we've reduced some of the admin burdens that farmers have had to face , while we've supported on farm veterinary support, while we've enhanced testing capability, I've been to APhA and Pirbright to see directly what the scientists have been doing in terms of testing capability and more specifically , on fallen stock. We are working through options and monitoring the situation closely, working with industry on future options worth me also saying that in the House when we had an urgent question as well, there are particular issues that were raised around maps and we've improved the heat map, so we know where the confirmed cases are across the country.
So a range of things we've done based on engagement we've had with farmers, but always more we can do, which is why I think it's worth just stressing as well. I'm keen to learn lessons from the outbreak this year. They've already started that process with my officials to make sure what we've learned from this year doesn't get repeated in future years.
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Henry Tufnell
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Henry Tufnell
I mean, my understanding is that it's not something that we would consider at the moment around subsidising vaccination. That's very much, obviously, whether or not you take up the vaccine or not is a decision for a farm alongside their vet. But the current situation is we don't believe that there is a case for mandatory vaccination or subsidising of vaccines. The costs are obviously between £2.50 and £3 in most cases. I think what's key is the communication to encourage farms to make sure that they do take up the vaccine.
10:24
Sarah Dyke
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Sarah Dyke
Yeah, I think the communication is something I want to touch on, because some farmers and industry representatives have argued that the government communications were not sufficiently timely or proactive as the outbreak spread so quickly. One Devon farmer and councillor Cheryl Cottle Hunkin, criticized Defra's handling of communications during the emergence of cases in the South West, and she was incredibly vocal about this, having outbreaks on on her own farm. And she argued that farmers were not adequately alerted to suspected local cases or increasing disease risks. And she suggested that delays in communication left some farmers feeling they had lost the opportunity to take proactive action at an early stage.
So who was ultimately responsible in getting the message across to farmers about the urgency of getting those vaccinations done?
So who was ultimately responsible in getting the message across to farmers about the urgency of getting those vaccinations done?
10:25
Henry Tufnell
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Henry Tufnell
On outbreaks such as these, Defra uses tried and tested approaches to work with the sector to make sure information is got across to the relevant agencies. And I think there's always lessons we can learn from our approach, which is why this lessons learned exercise is really important. What strikes me is that Defra did a number of things which I think were successful. There were a series of webinars which were well attended. I think in some cases 1000 farmers attended one, and obviously we use various different portals and blogs to get information out to community. Very grateful for the work the NFU have also done on communication as well, but I would say it's a partnership approach.
I think there's everyone can play their part in making sure the messages get across to farmers and that's a PHA, that's Pirbright, that's the NFU and other farming organisations and Defra at the heart of all of that. Yeah, I mean.
I think there's everyone can play their part in making sure the messages get across to farmers and that's a PHA, that's Pirbright, that's the NFU and other farming organisations and Defra at the heart of all of that. Yeah, I mean.
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Henry Tufnell
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Henry Tufnell
I think it's a partnership approach, and that's why I'm proud of some of the things that department did in terms of the webinars, the communication regularly with farmers, there's always more we can do, and I think we will take on board the feedback we've learned from farmers this year to make sure we improve it for next year.
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Henry Tufnell
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Henry Tufnell
Thank you for the question. Obviously, there is the TB control strategy, which came out in June of this year following extensive stakeholder engagement and co-design with the sector. We have agreed to adopt the strategy, but obviously we are looking to publish the kind of next stage of that process, which I can confirm it will be out before Christmas.
10:28
Sarah Dyke
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Sarah Dyke
I've got personal experience of TB this month. My family farm are. Two cows were culled after reacting to a TB test. When the results came back after slaughter, both animals were clear of TB. This isn't the first time it happens at all of the time. It's happened to my neighbouring farms, friends, family. So I know how heartbreaking, firsthand, how heartbreaking this. For farming families. Bovine TB costs the taxpayer of £100 million a year in England, and healthy animals are being lost along the way, and what staff are doing to improve the accuracy of the testing so that cattle aren't slaughtered unnecessarily.
And with the previous minister admitting the SPS work was delaying cattle vaccine trials because of the capacity problems, will the 2030 target for cattle vaccination be met?
And with the previous minister admitting the SPS work was delaying cattle vaccine trials because of the capacity problems, will the 2030 target for cattle vaccination be met?
10:29
Henry Tufnell
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Henry Tufnell
There's lots in there, but worth saying that I hear your concerns, and I heard that loud and clear from spending a day on the farm in Cumbria with James Robinson have been working through with him a very similar experience and putting him in touch with the VMD and with a PHA. In terms of vaccine, it's worth saying we're continuing to develop the cattle vaccination and skin testing. There's obviously the rollout of the badger vaccination vaccination in priority areas, and we're collecting found dead badgers as well. They might just turn to Mike to add anything further with regards to TB.
10:29
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
No, I think that covers it, Minister. I mean, obviously it's a devastating disease for the farms that contract it. And it's something that in the department, whilst it's not under my personal responsibilities, I know that the teams on it are trying to look at every tool in the toolbox in terms of how we can get a grip on the disease. I think there's work that's been done to make use of privately funded TB blood testing to support better risk based disease management, and longer term, our approach on a number of issues that are facing the sector is to try and think, how do we build long term resilience into the farming sector so that we can be better at equipping farmers with the tools they need to manage multiple risks?
Some of that can be done through peer to peer learning, in terms of trying to get best practice to be common practice.
Some of that can be done through peer to peer learning, in terms of trying to get best practice to be common practice.
10:30
Sarah Dyke
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Sarah Dyke
And I've seen TB testing on farm, you know, it's the inaccuracies are incredible. The caliper system, it's been in place for 40 odd years now. We should be doing this much better, you know, and at present, cattle that tests positive on a non-statutory test face compulsory slaughter. Resolved inconclusive reactors can already be kept on farm under a lifetime restriction sold only direct to slaughter. But when will the department create an equivalent responder category for non-statutory tests? Positive, so farmers and vets can manage these animals in a way that is best for their herd?
10:31
Henry Tufnell
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Henry Tufnell
Well, thank you for that, and I will certainly take those concerns back to the department. And obviously, it just reminds us how important the next stage of the strategy is. Worth noting that obviously, we are developing a new industry government strategy board to drive the recommendations from the strategy and are certainly feed that back and take it forward. In terms of work that I'm doing alongside Baroness Hayman, who's the minister responsible for biosecurity.
10:31
Sarah Dyke
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Sarah Dyke
Yeah. Thank you. And just my final question is the current guidance only allows non-statutory tests in OTF herds that have already had gamma testing, and it stops further testing the moment a status has been regained. That means farmers cannot keep checking for hidden infection once a herd is clear. And we've heard that, we've heard that. I've had that on my own farm. We also heard that when we visited Gatcombe Farm down in Devon, they found that exact example when they were reinfected back in 2023. So will you allow these tests in OTF herds without affecting their status?
And how will the government, going forward, make sure the SPS agreement doesn't restrict this activity?
And how will the government, going forward, make sure the SPS agreement doesn't restrict this activity?
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Yeah, I think I think it's right, Minister. That's something we can look at in the strategy. I know that there is expansion of government funded mandatory interferon gamma blood testing to help try and detect infection sooner, reduce breakdown duration. But I don't know enough about the issues, you know, if that specifically addresses your question, but it's definitely something we can pick up with the teams in Defra.
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Henry Tufnell
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Henry Tufnell
Minister, I'm just wondering whether you're worried about. You know, we've got the current policy on on TB and we've got the strategy in respect of TB. I was just worried about in terms of SBS, I know you can't comment on negotiations and but you're worried about the divergence, the difference between what our strategy and our policy says in this country and the European and the divergence between the two. I mean, we obviously take these issues extremely seriously. And protecting the security of our country is is vital. That's why we work really closely with Baroness Hayman.
That leads on both the SPS and biosecurity issues. And those are at the forefront of our mind in the negotiations. I mean, you know, the EU is not permitting us to vaccinate cattle. We've got extending testing regime. Is that are you worried about that in terms of combating TB and our fight against TB to have official TB status by, I think, well. 2038 yeah. I mean, lots of things that we do are world leading in this space, and which is why I was keen to see what Pirbright and are doing on the specifics. We can obviously get back to you in terms of the response that Sarah has asked for, and I'm very happy to do so.
Thank you.
That leads on both the SPS and biosecurity issues. And those are at the forefront of our mind in the negotiations. I mean, you know, the EU is not permitting us to vaccinate cattle. We've got extending testing regime. Is that are you worried about that in terms of combating TB and our fight against TB to have official TB status by, I think, well. 2038 yeah. I mean, lots of things that we do are world leading in this space, and which is why I was keen to see what Pirbright and are doing on the specifics. We can obviously get back to you in terms of the response that Sarah has asked for, and I'm very happy to do so.
Thank you.
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Josh Newbury
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Josh Newbury
I just wanted to pick up on the consultation that was released yesterday on CO2. Stunning of pigs. I'm very much with the government on the animal welfare agenda. I think that the strategy is a visionary document. Obviously, to actually achieve welfare gains. We need to make sure anything we do is based on robust evidence. Now, the statement released by Defra yesterday stated that minimising distress during handling and slaughter is an important part of safeguarding pig welfare, and that both argon and electric stunning are proven to substantially reduce animal suffering. But then, if you dive into the animal welfare's opinion, it notes that exposure to argon still causes vocalizations and sometimes escape attempts.
It takes longer for pigs to lose consciousness, which could have welfare implications and would certainly have commercial impacts for abattoirs. It then goes on to say that the CCTV the committee saw wasn't in the gas system itself, so that it was inadequate to properly assess their welfare. An automated electric stunning. We know that in the pigs trial, as much as one fifth of pigs showed signs of consciousness after they'd gone through the process, by that point, they're hoisted up by their rear trotters, so they would have to get the pigs down, rest on them, put them back up again, which could have, again, terrible welfare implications.
And pigs are big beasts, so potentially that could place a risk to staff as well, further exacerbating labour shortages that abattoirs are already facing. So given all of that, can you hand on heart at this point say that the evidence base is strong enough to bring that consultation forward?
It takes longer for pigs to lose consciousness, which could have welfare implications and would certainly have commercial impacts for abattoirs. It then goes on to say that the CCTV the committee saw wasn't in the gas system itself, so that it was inadequate to properly assess their welfare. An automated electric stunning. We know that in the pigs trial, as much as one fifth of pigs showed signs of consciousness after they'd gone through the process, by that point, they're hoisted up by their rear trotters, so they would have to get the pigs down, rest on them, put them back up again, which could have, again, terrible welfare implications.
And pigs are big beasts, so potentially that could place a risk to staff as well, further exacerbating labour shortages that abattoirs are already facing. So given all of that, can you hand on heart at this point say that the evidence base is strong enough to bring that consultation forward?
10:35
Henry Tufnell
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Henry Tufnell
So we've engaged with industry in advance of going out to public consultation. You'll know that the commitment to do so is very much from our animal welfare strategy, which Baroness Hayman and the government launched last December. I think it's really important that we have that engagement with industry and obviously encourage people to respond to. The consultation opened only yesterday with a deadline of December. I'm very keen to make sure we do deliver on our manifesto commitments as we set out at the election, but also to work with industry around mitigate any risks and challenges. Mike, I don't know if there's anything further you wanted to add in terms of the specifics of Josh's question.
10:36
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Not only that, I think the consultation provides an opportunity for some of those issues that you've raised about argon and whether or not how suitable it might be as a replacement method. This is about gathering the evidence so that ministers can then take decisions on the back of that consultation. So we're keen to hear views about all aspects of the document that's been out.
10:36
Josh Newbury
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Josh Newbury
But clearly written responses to a consultation are not the same as a full industry led trial with independent oversight, which seems to me to be what we really need. Even the Animal welfare Committee isn't saying argon electric stunning is certainly better. There are definitely reservations there. There are huge gaps clearly in the evidence. So my question is, should that not have been gathered before the consultation was released?
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10:37
Josh Newbury
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Josh Newbury
Well, just lastly, yesterday I hosted a drop in on CO2 used for the National Association. We didn't know the consultation was going to be coming out yesterday, but it was quite timely. And they told me that they have had many meetings with Deborah officials, and they've raised these concerns and many others. And yet none of that seems to have had any bearing on what's in the consultation document whatsoever. They don't see any of those nuances even reflected. Will you be engaging going forward with pig producers and abattoirs? Because from their concerns, I think we can see that they're only going to grow louder and louder in the coming weeks.
And I think there's a lot going on in the industry. This is another thing that they've been heaped on.
And I think there's a lot going on in the industry. This is another thing that they've been heaped on.
10:37
Henry Tufnell
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Henry Tufnell
Yeah. So yes, absolutely understand the pressures that the sector is facing. That's why early on I've met with the National Pig Association. It's why I've met with pig farmers directly on farm. I'm committed to having a summit with industry, with processors and others to recognize the challenges that the sector are facing and to work through what the options might be to provide.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
So I think so I have to be clear as well. It's not my policy area, but my understanding is that the Animal Welfare Committee report that was published in 2025 recommended all the reasons set out in that report, phasing out the current methods CO2, and that there are other methods that the committee in their report suggested. And what we're trying to do now is gather information, evidence from the industry about the implications of moving from the current methods to those new methods.
10:38
10:39
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10:39
Alistair Carmichael
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Alistair Carmichael
But you're content to go on this. Okay, well, maybe raise the bar when she's coming in later. And Stephen, you mentioned there your summit, is that summit going to address the fact that the pig sector is going to have too many pigs on farm between now and Christmas. They're not going to be on contract. There's going to be no a no no way for them to get to market. So that's going to lead up to a back up of stock on farm, which in itself then becomes a animal welfare issue. Is that something that your summit is going to address?
10:40
10:40
Henry Tufnell
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Henry Tufnell
And that's why I'm really keen to work with the sector to drive growth in the sector. You all know from your experience that it tends to be boom and bust in the pig sector. And therefore, you know, a key point that I'd want to get across in the summit is about market monitoring and forecasting and working with industry and what the options are for growth for the future.
10:40
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10:40
Henry Tufnell
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Henry Tufnell
The way that I operate, working with the sector is to ask what issues they want to discuss with me. Then we work through those. It's a partnership approach to then improve outcomes for our farming community. Very much in the spirit of the farming roadmap. So I'm very happy to explore issues they would like to raise with me when we have that.
10:41
Ben Goldsborough
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Ben Goldsborough
And I should refer to my wider register of interests submitted to the committee in relation to my family connections with the industry. Just going back on Josh's point here, I think I think it's quite well established within industry that electrical stunning could lead to worse welfare outcomes. But the use of argon and nitrogen we have readily available CO2 presents another issue because I would ask you, where do you expect which countries would you expect to import the argon or nitrogen from?
10:41
Ben Goldsborough
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Ben Goldsborough
Okay. Well, I can tell you that Russia is a major producer of those gases, and that would mean that our domestic food security is further compromised by relying on Russian imports. So that in itself would seem to be the wrong way about it. And as the chair just alluded to, we already have 15,000 pigs backed up on farm. The transition period was consultation around the use of CO2 talks about 2 to 3 years. That would require shutting down the abattoirs for a conversion, that these are abattoirs that are running at full capacity trying to deal with the situation.
The market, as it is 2 to 3 years, would be unworkable and would create additional welfare problems on farm, because there wouldn't be the throughput in the abattoirs to get the pigs that were already producing. So I think that does really need to be considered when you're looking at this. Would you agree with that?
The market, as it is 2 to 3 years, would be unworkable and would create additional welfare problems on farm, because there wouldn't be the throughput in the abattoirs to get the pigs that were already producing. So I think that does really need to be considered when you're looking at this. Would you agree with that?
10:42
Henry Tufnell
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Henry Tufnell
Well, thank you for that. And I know that you speak with real authority on these issues. Having worked for the National Pig Association in the past, it's really important that as many people as possible contribute to the consultation, and I'm very happy to meet any member on these issues to make sure that their views are fed into consultation. Okay.
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10:42
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
My circumstance. So the trial of the avian influenza vaccine has just come to an end within Norfolk. We're very proud of what our local poultry producers have been doing to work with the Animal and Plant Health Agency on that. I had a meeting with the APhA on Friday of last week to talk about this. One of the things that was raised with me is obviously the findings are now coming to conclusion, but the vaccine itself does have to be administered through a travelling process using liquid nitrogen. So it does make it quite a costly process.
So will that be taken into account when recommendations are given on if this vaccine is given approval going forward?
So will that be taken into account when recommendations are given on if this vaccine is given approval going forward?
10:43
10:43
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
And in terms of the next steps for this, obviously, if we look at other counterparts around the world, Australia, for example, they have had their first cases of avian influenza this summer. Over in August, they have done a mass rollout scheme for wild birds. Around about 230 million AUD is the scheme that they're rolling out. So it is doable in terms of if a government takes its mind and puts it to it, what do you believe is going to be the next steps for the government in terms of as AI is going to be approaching us as the season has now started?
10:44
Henry Tufnell
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Henry Tufnell
10:44
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
And in terms of moving away from Barris Hayman's portfolio towards yours, obviously, one of the issues that we have within the poultry sector is the lack of insurance that is now available. I raise this with former minister Daniel Zeichner in a Westminster Hall debate. There doesn't seem to be any action that's come from since that point, in terms of the support divergence and increasing the number of insurance providers. Is this something that is you're aware of at all? Minister.
10:44
Henry Tufnell
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Henry Tufnell
Thank you for raising this. You're know, we published our farming roadmap earlier this year and have established a Farming and Food partnership board. There are a number of growth plans, sector growth plans that we are taking forward. There's one around horticulture. There's one around poultry. I met at the partnership board yesterday, Representatives from the poultry sector. We want to make sure we've got a really good plan to build resilience and a sustainable sector for the future. So all those issues that you describe around insurance and other matters will be brought out in the plan so that we can ensure growth for the sector, for the future.
10:45
10:45
Henry Tufnell
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Henry Tufnell
So I've met with representatives of the poultry sector. I've not had that particular point raised with me directly yet, but I'm very, very happy to follow through on those as we work out the sector growth plan for the future. I don't know if you want to chip in more broadly around support for the poultry sector.
10:45
Josh Newbury
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Josh Newbury
Yeah. So as the minister mentioned, the sector growth plans, we're trying to make sure they're industry led. They were commissioned by the Farming and Food Partnership Board. We're expecting the poultry one to be submitted back to the board within the next six months. As the minister said, these sorts of issues alongside others. We are aware that there are issues in the planning system, for example, that's holding back growth in the sector. So we're trying to look across the board at the systematic challenges that need to be addressed in order to enable the sector to grow, and I would expect this to feature in that plan somewhere.
10:46
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10:46
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Minister, I wanted to ask you about the issue of local abattoir provision. It's something that has been vastly eroding in recent years. And in Sussex, where my constituency is, we have just one abattoir left in the entire county at a national level. In the 70s, we had 2500 abattoirs. We now have just 200 in the whole country. So it's a really big issue for local farmers because it means they have to transport animals much further for slaughter, and that can have animal welfare considerations. And also it impacts their ability to sell meat locally and reduce food miles as well.
When we lose abattoirs, which we have lost many of this week, the NFU published a letter with 150 organisations saying that the sector is in crisis and needs government support. So can I ask, given that Defra put a huge amount of money into supporting the farming industry in this country, is it not right that we also think about protecting this vital national infrastructure abattoirs? So can I ask, do you recognise abattoirs, local abattoirs and the network of them as vital national infrastructure? And can you say anything about how Defra can support them and make sure we don't lose more abattoirs in the future?
When we lose abattoirs, which we have lost many of this week, the NFU published a letter with 150 organisations saying that the sector is in crisis and needs government support. So can I ask, given that Defra put a huge amount of money into supporting the farming industry in this country, is it not right that we also think about protecting this vital national infrastructure abattoirs? So can I ask, do you recognise abattoirs, local abattoirs and the network of them as vital national infrastructure? And can you say anything about how Defra can support them and make sure we don't lose more abattoirs in the future?
10:47
Henry Tufnell
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Henry Tufnell
Thank you for the question. It's an issue that's come up on the engagement that I've had through agricultural shows and visits across the country over the summer, and I'm aware of the coalition's letter, led by the NFU and 150 different organisations. Defra works really closely with an abattoir working group and a task and finish group to work through the options for the future. I've met with Susan at the FSA to look at what options can be done around regulation and vet visits. It's worth saying that we've seen about a 2.5% reduction in local abattoirs across the country, so don't recognise the 10% reduction, but they are hugely important to food resilience and that's why I'm pleased there is work going on, working with industry and my officials to monitor the situation and see what further action can be taken.
10:48
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
And can that working group look at setting up a dedicated fund to support local abattoirs? Because we if we're putting 2 billion a year into supporting farming in this country, it would make sense that we put a small amount of money into that local infrastructure. That is, the farming is dependent on.
10:48
Henry Tufnell
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Henry Tufnell
So my understanding is the letter calls for a dedicated funding stream to support that. What I want to do is look at what other measures we can take at this stage in terms of reducing some of the regulatory burden, some of the inspection burdens on abattoirs, and then see if there's anything further we can do to deliver on the commitments we've made.
10:48
Sarah Dyke
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Sarah Dyke
30s thank you, chair, just on this, and I think it's a really, really important point. The small and medium sized abattoirs are closing at a rate that there simply won't be any left in, in ten years time, and that's really important for the local supply chain, for rare breeds, for native breeds, for organic farmers. But recently we had the smaller abattoir fund closed in 2024 and September, and it hasn't been replaced. And will you be looking at bringing in replacement for that and how are we going to stem these closures?
10:49
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10:49
Terry Jermy
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Terry Jermy
Apologies. I'm leading a Westminster Hall debate at 11. So I shall ask a couple of quick questions. I don't run that fast, so I shall have to ask quickly and run away. But good morning Minister. I wanted to ask about water resilience because it's been an incredibly tough year when it comes to drought. It's been like this for a number of years now in places like Norfolk. And if you follow the news, it seems we're not out of the woods yet. There's potentially more to come. Water is obviously crucial to the operations of farms, absolutely critical.
And I welcome the £15 million in grants for on farm reservoirs. But the core problem, and farmers tell me this all the time, is getting the necessary licenses and planning permissions. I get that this cuts across different departments, different briefs, Mhclg as well. But when can farmers expect progress on getting licences and planning permissions easier?
And I welcome the £15 million in grants for on farm reservoirs. But the core problem, and farmers tell me this all the time, is getting the necessary licenses and planning permissions. I get that this cuts across different departments, different briefs, Mhclg as well. But when can farmers expect progress on getting licences and planning permissions easier?
10:50
Henry Tufnell
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Henry Tufnell
Thank you for that. And just to echo what you've said, Terry, I absolutely agree with how difficult it's been for farmers across the country this year. And again, it's a message I heard loud and clear on a farm visit with Tom Bradshaw to his own farm around the value of reservoirs. We're obviously funding the water management grant £15 million, which will . The detail of that will come out next month, but there's a range of things that I'm keen to do across government, which is why yesterday there was a discussion at the Farming and Food Partnership Board with representatives from across government, including Mhclg, working through some options for the future.
So obviously, the Prime Minister has taken this issue extremely seriously, hence the announcement of the additional 15 million announced in August when he was on farm in Cornwall on a potato farm. But there's a range of things we want to do around abstractions, working with the Environment Agency and speeding up the planning process to deliver the change that we need. I mentioned yesterday there was a very healthy discussion about these issues at the Partnership Board, working with the sector, and we've set some key, clear milestones to take forward further action. Mike, anything on the specifics you wanted to add around abstraction planning or funding and finance?
So obviously, the Prime Minister has taken this issue extremely seriously, hence the announcement of the additional 15 million announced in August when he was on farm in Cornwall on a potato farm. But there's a range of things we want to do around abstractions, working with the Environment Agency and speeding up the planning process to deliver the change that we need. I mentioned yesterday there was a very healthy discussion about these issues at the Partnership Board, working with the sector, and we've set some key, clear milestones to take forward further action. Mike, anything on the specifics you wanted to add around abstraction planning or funding and finance?
10:51
Josh Newbury
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Josh Newbury
Yeah, maybe just to add. So we're trying to take a system wide look at the barriers. So some of those might be in the planning system. Hence we had colleagues from CLG in the meeting yesterday that the minister referred to. We know there are issues with abstraction. And if you have to have an environmental impact assessment, there can be issues with the Natural England screening of that. So we had both of those organisations represented in the room and are trying to sort of crack this in a in a group way, as well as looking at the role that finance can play in doing it.
So we agreed yesterday a plan of action with the sector, with those other bits of government, as I mentioned, to try and work through some of those things. Now, smart abstraction may well be one thing, whether it's being trialled at the moment, but currently farmers would need to apply to the Environment Agency in order to get abstraction licences. Are there ways in which we can use technology, automatic monitoring of river levels, so that we can sort of take that out of the loop? And that's one example of the changes that we're looking at, but we totally get the urgency.
We started this work just before we experienced the extreme drought, and it's something that ministers are committed to, to resolving.
So we agreed yesterday a plan of action with the sector, with those other bits of government, as I mentioned, to try and work through some of those things. Now, smart abstraction may well be one thing, whether it's being trialled at the moment, but currently farmers would need to apply to the Environment Agency in order to get abstraction licences. Are there ways in which we can use technology, automatic monitoring of river levels, so that we can sort of take that out of the loop? And that's one example of the changes that we're looking at, but we totally get the urgency.
We started this work just before we experienced the extreme drought, and it's something that ministers are committed to, to resolving.
10:52
Henry Tufnell
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Henry Tufnell
So if you want to build more reservoirs, make it easier for people to build reservoirs. And obviously, the National Policy Framework planning framework is also helpful, which has come out recently, which is about prioritising food production and the work of farmers. And I think that's a really helpful strategic document which should drive the change that we need.
10:53
10:53
Terry Jermy
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Terry Jermy
I'm glad you appreciate the urgency, particularly around abstraction licences. And as you'll be aware, last week I held a farming conference in south west Norfolk, 70 farmers, landowners. I've got numerous farmers where their abstraction licences are up for renewal next March. They need to be put in seed orders in now, and they don't know if they're going to have the water available. They're making. It's risky enough. We need to de-risk where possible. Do you think the current arrangements for abstraction licences properly prioritise food production and support for farmers indicate that perhaps they don't. And that's what we're looking to reform.
10:53
Henry Tufnell
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Henry Tufnell
I mean, more generally you want to make it easier to build reservoirs. We want to sort of review and update the planning guidance and remove some of the unnecessary barriers that exist. And I've heard those messages loud and clear from parliamentarians, but also on on farm visits as well. Mike, was there anything further in terms of those issues that you wanted to cover?
10:53
Josh Newbury
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Josh Newbury
Yeah, I mean, clearly there's there will always be a lead in time for getting a reservoir from getting the permissions through to then building it. You obviously need to factor in any health and safety considerations with regards to the agency aspect in this, but we are the actions that we agreed yesterday with other partners around the table. We are hoping that they would see some benefit in terms of the construction of reservoirs next year, which obviously with the summer that we've had, we'd all prefer that to be quicker. But equally, this is a challenge that's been left unresolved for too long.
We're trying to grip it now. Great. Thank you Minister. Thank you chairman.
We're trying to grip it now. Great. Thank you Minister. Thank you chairman.
10:54
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
I wanted to just continue Terry's questions there, but also delve into the wider issue of the very hot summer that we've had and the impact for farmers as well. So just to follow up on, on Terry's question there, we know that in August, the government announced £50 million of funding would be reallocated to SFI to help farmers adapt to the risk of future droughts. Can can you comment on how Defra has ensured that this money is ring fenced for drought resilience?
10:55
Henry Tufnell
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Henry Tufnell
Thank you for the question. So 15 million allocated when we've done similar schemes before, slightly smaller amount. I think it supports about 70 reservoirs across the country. We will set up the kind of specifics of the application opportunity when we publish it next month. But but more broadly, you know, I'd say that this is alongside broader work the government is doing around private investment going into the water sector to improve water management issues, which I know you're very passionate about and do lots of work on.
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10:56
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10:56
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Okay. And then on the more broad issue of the very hot summer that we've just had, we also saw a number of wildfires, which is something the committee has been looking at. And in Stourbridge, particularly, farmers played a critical role in getting those wildfires under control by creating firebreaks. I know in my own constituency when we've been thinking about this issue, we've actually asked the local council whether they're in touch with local farmers in preparedness for any wildfires, and there is there is no such link, no such database and no such connection. So in light of all the work going on in government about wildfire preparedness, what role does Defra see for farmers in that?
And are you doing any thinking about how we can further upskill local farmers and support them in that role, and the fact that they own land that can be used in response to wildfires?
And are you doing any thinking about how we can further upskill local farmers and support them in that role, and the fact that they own land that can be used in response to wildfires?
10:56
Henry Tufnell
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Henry Tufnell
Thank you for the question. And I just want to pay tribute to what farmers did do over the summer, tremendous activity, and obviously just demonstrates, again, the kind of resilience that we see from our farming sector. You'll be aware that the Prime Minister hosted a wildfire summit last week on these very issues, and I was able to secure the NFU representation at that important summit so that farmers voices are heard in decisions around what we might do differently in future. More generally, you mentioned the kind of the firebreaks that were put in, which were measures that we announced the new flexibilities with Environment Agency on Farm in August when the Prime Minister was in attendance.
And obviously, I think there's more work we can do around preparedness, which is why, you know, be working directly with the sector is really important to to learn lessons and make sure that we have a robust system for future.
And obviously, I think there's more work we can do around preparedness, which is why, you know, be working directly with the sector is really important to to learn lessons and make sure that we have a robust system for future.
10:57
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10:58
Josh Newbury
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Josh Newbury
So outside Elms, absolutely. There's clearly the Elms budget is 2.3 billion a year, but there's also work on local nature restoration strategies. There's work that can be factored in from biodiversity net gain. And actually only yesterday, I think it was announced that the government has partly contributed funding to secure the Rothbury estate, for example, in order to try and get extra funding into more nature resilient farming on important landscapes. So there's a range of measures specifically on wildfires.
We also made those announcements regarding new actions in Elms last week as well.
We also made those announcements regarding new actions in Elms last week as well.
10:59
10:59
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10:59
Sarah Bool
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Sarah Bool
Enthusiasm with the lists of the farms that you've been visiting and all the things you've done. But I think given that farmer confidence in Defra is has been devastated with the shambles, as it has been said by farmers themselves as of SFI window two, I think we really do need to drill into some of the details. So can I take us back to the 21st of September? So the day before the launch of that window? Two. So can I ask, what sort of estimate did Defra have of the number of eligible farm businesses likely to apply compared to the budget?
10:59
Henry Tufnell
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Henry Tufnell
So thank you for your question, Sarah. And just to start by saying that obviously earlier this year, we did redesign SFI based on feedback from the previous year, and that was about making sure that the funding was more fairly distributed and targeted more effectively to farmers as much as possible, which is why we introduced the two windows of opportunity. The first window opened earlier this year in the North Sea. The second window closed later in September. I'm really keen to learn lessons from what happened this year. The system held up despite huge demand, and that's why I've started conversations with the sector to see how we design the scheme for the future.
11:00
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11:00
Alistair Carmichael
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Alistair Carmichael
Sorry. I mean, if we don't get this right, right at the start, we're going to be here for the rest of the day talking about this, Sarah has asked you a very direct question here. How many applications did you expect to receive? I don't know if you know that Steve, Stephen, or if Mike knows it or if nobody knows it. That's the question that's been asked. And unless we get the right answer to that, nothing else is going to make sense.
11:01
Josh Newbury
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Josh Newbury
Yeah. So our best estimates, noting that we've made some changes to the scheme compared to the previous iterations, was we had in excess of 20,000 expiring agreements. Some of those we would have expected to come into SFI. We clearly had the window, one that was open for people without an existing agreement. And obviously we don't know who might have started an application on the following day because of the speed at which it closed.
But for the window two, as I think, you know, we secured 12,200 applications. And our best guess is that around northwards of 10,000
But for the window two, as I think, you know, we secured 12,200 applications. And our best guess is that around northwards of 10,000
11:02
11:02
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Have wanted to come in. But. So you were expecting 20,000. Is that what you're saying? So we knew that we had in excess of. 20,000 agreements expiring, but we couldn't always guarantee that, given the changes that we've made to scheme, whether or not people would want to go into the new scheme, noting that it would remove some actions, we'd change some payment rates, or would they want to go into other schemes?
11:02
Sarah Bool
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Sarah Bool
Clearly, what we saw over the summer was an exceptional spike in demand as a result, growing conditions, because I think it's really important this because I think there's been a lot of there's a lot of expectation on farmers to be able to forward plan. And part of forward planning is to know exactly whether they can or can't get into these schemes. So if there was.
11:02
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11:02
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Basically you went in knowing that farmers wouldn't be able to get it. Yeah. So we made a number of changes to the scheme to try and make the money go as far as possible, such as reducing those actions from 102 to 71. We capped agreements for the first time at 100,000. We reduced the three most popular payment rates. We brought some of the actions under a cap so that you could only do it on a your holding for a certain hectare. We removed the management payment. So against that backdrop, we were not comparing like for like in terms of those old agreements.
And equally, some of the expiring agreements are mid tier, which are the sort of legacy agreements which are halfway between what we would describe as SFI or higher tier, for example. And we didn't know who might want to go up into higher tier versus down. So this is all modelling estimates forecasting. But we knew that the budget was going to be heavily.
And equally, some of the expiring agreements are mid tier, which are the sort of legacy agreements which are halfway between what we would describe as SFI or higher tier, for example. And we didn't know who might want to go up into higher tier versus down. So this is all modelling estimates forecasting. But we knew that the budget was going to be heavily.
11:03
11:03
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Hence why we made all the changes that we did to try and make it go as far as possible. And right at the last minute we were able to secure an agreement to put, firstly, that extra 50 million in it was announced in August, and then an extra. 20 million and a residual 3 million. So having published that, the budget would be. 180 million earlier in the year, when we said when the scheme would open, we were then able to put an extra 73 on top of that, around a 40% increase. Clearly, in light of the experience that we had, that wasn't enough because the demand was as high as it was, but we knew we were going to have high demand, which is why we made that suite of changes in consultation with stakeholders.
Around about this time a year ago, I should say, because we knew .
Around about this time a year ago, I should say, because we knew .
11:04
11:04
Sarah Bool
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Sarah Bool
Finite and was unlikely to meet all the demand to the budget 153 million. But in that basis, then why did you make it a first come, first serve? Because you knew demand would be higher, because we've had reports like we did a Ephra did its own survey. 60% couldn't get in the application time. One farmer left a funeral to try and get the .
11:04
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Application in on time. You setting farmers up to fail. I mean, I've committed to move away from first come, first served. We refined the scheme this year. You'll appreciate that was before my time in the department, but I'm very keen to learn lessons from this year. I've heard heartbreaking stories of the impact it's had and how stressful it's been for farmers across the country, and that's why I welcome the survey that you've. undertaken to capture views and .
11:05
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11:05
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Explain where's that difference if. 210 million gone. Yeah. So I think the NFU is assumption there would be that everyone in an expiring agreement would all go sort of downwards in the hierarchy of schemes within the elm sweet into SFI rather than upwards. So that is if everyone who had an expiring mid tier, for example, all went and looked at SFI rather than up at higher tier. So I do recognise those numbers .
11:05
11:05
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
You're committing to making sure the funding there, but there isn't. There is an open gap here. So I don't accept the characterization that there's missing money. The department set out the full details of the spending review settlement that was secured nearly two years ago. Now headline level. That includes. £2.3 billion for the farming budget, of which roughly. £1.9 billion is for environmental land management schemes. As per what we set out in our farming roadmap. Over time, we are seeing money that previously has been earmarked for SFI being applied to higher tier and landscape recovery.
So this notion of missing money, like I say, I don't recognise. But there is we have been, I think publicly in our farming roadmap, recognising that money within the farming budget is going to be tight and therefore, over time, we expect that higher tier and landscape recovery will take a bigger share of it. That said, SFI is still the largest scheme that we have at the moment and we estimate spend this year will be around about. £851 million on both on those legacy agreements that we've already got. And clearly in the window to. And the window one that we saw this summer, we committed £310 million.
And because these are three year agreements, that's a further. £930 million .
So this notion of missing money, like I say, I don't recognise. But there is we have been, I think publicly in our farming roadmap, recognising that money within the farming budget is going to be tight and therefore, over time, we expect that higher tier and landscape recovery will take a bigger share of it. That said, SFI is still the largest scheme that we have at the moment and we estimate spend this year will be around about. £851 million on both on those legacy agreements that we've already got. And clearly in the window to. And the window one that we saw this summer, we committed £310 million.
And because these are three year agreements, that's a further. £930 million .
11:07
Sarah Bool
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Sarah Bool
That's been signed up to in applications that we've received. So from what I'm taking so far, you knew exactly knew it was going to be completely oversubscribed. There wasn't sufficient funding to allow this. And farmers weren't given any indication. They were just they weren't told exactly when the window would open. So many were staying up throughout the night. It opened at ten. It shut just under six hours later. Minister, I know you said you were going to learn lessons, but how are you going to stop this happening again? And how could farmers have known? This is the thing.
I think this this is numbers and banding around. But how could possibly farmers have known? This is the repeated fences for the last two years of the carpet being swept away from under their feet.
I think this this is numbers and banding around. But how could possibly farmers have known? This is the repeated fences for the last two years of the carpet being swept away from under their feet.
11:07
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11:07
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Was there earlier on in the year. We set up the overall design of the scheme earlier in the year through the farming conferences that took place, obviously before my time in the department. And then in terms of the date at which we opened window two that was announced, I think about at least three and a half weeks in advance. Obviously, in terms of the time it opened at 10:00 that morning, that wasn't public knowledge, and that was because RPA needed to run some .
11:08
11:08
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Applications in God. Goodness help a farmer trying to when they were on farm. I mean, again, just to stress the importance of I've already said we're going to scrap the first come, first served approach. That means some trade offs in terms of how we design the scheme for next year, but we're already working in partnership with NFU and others to design that scheme to get it right for the future. As Mike said earlier, NFU and others were involved in the design of the scheme for this year, but we need to work through what the options are for next year to make .
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11:09
Alistair Carmichael
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Alistair Carmichael
Specifics of Sarah? Are you saying that they help them? Yeah. Can I just get a sense of what was happening inside the department, though? You've had the first window now, 25% of a much less pressured window was allocated on the first day. So this fastest finger first approach should have been obvious to the department at the end of June .
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Because you're the minister here. Mike's the official, so very much understood the level of demand lessons have to be learned, I think, for the future, as I've clearly got across today and on the day itself was made aware of how it was going. And that's why we certainly communicated that information via the Defra blog, to .
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11:11
Alistair Carmichael
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Alistair Carmichael
Nevertheless. because the information about how the scheme would operate had already been published. Yeah, but if you were told, if you knew that you'd published what was going to be how it was going to be done, and it was apparent to you, as Mike was telling us, that she'd had been apparent to you, it was always an option for you to turn around and say, look, this isn't going to work. We need .
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11:12
Sarah Bool
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Sarah Bool
Then the 20 million as well, which took the overall pot to 253 million. Sir, I think I think when farmers talk about wanting a consistent approach, they just want to know that they can actually apply to a scheme and that there'll be money. I think they would much rather have this been paused and delayed further. What's another week at this point, rather than the devastation which this has caused, because this is now shifting farm practices and this is going to have a far longer impact, because actually they're going to have to put land back into production.
They're going to have to diversify the. intensification on farm. So this.
They're going to have to diversify the. intensification on farm. So this.
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11:13
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
But I have no faith that this won't be repeated in the future. Well, politely remind you that this is a scheme inherited from the previous government that had no budget control. We refined and improved the scheme over the years since we've been in office, but you've already heard me get across that are keen to design a better scheme for the future, building on what has worked and what hasn't.
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11:13
Alistair Carmichael
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Alistair Carmichael
The problem is the budget is just not big enough, isn't it? I mean, you can't account for this 210 million that's been lost because the NFU figures, which come in a freedom of information request from the department itself, say that those people who were coming out of schemes were getting £520 million. The window envelope for SFI 26 was 310. So we've lost 210 million. We don't know where in.
Mike, you've answered that point .
Mike, you've answered that point .
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11:14
Sarah Bool
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Sarah Bool
Anybody else got anything on? On just one point, Minister, I would just say that this is farmers livelihoods here. So this is not about political points. We very much try to keep the politics out of this room when we're discussing this. The department, though, has announced that there is a technical issues group which will be expanded to allow farmers who reported an issue up to one week after the window closed. So .
11:15
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11:15
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Those those as we speak? Mike, do you want to just give the specifics? Yes. So there's two groups. One is those that requested assisted digital support and one who reported, as you mentioned, that they had some system issues and RPA working through all of those cases, contacting individual farmers. And so it will depend on the individual circumstances of the farm, because in some.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Administer SFI? I don't have that information. Can you get us that information? It should surely be. And a key part of that information is also looking at the benefit to cost ratios that we get from SFI. Compared to Baps, Bbps was generally regarded as having zero or very modest benefit cost ratio. It was poor value for taxpayers money SFI, depending on the actions, because some deliver more for the environment and others have benefit to cost ratios up to 5 to 1.
So we also need to .
So we also need to .
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Benefit ratio. If you're looking at very different. metrics from what you're saying, well, I still think we apply a common economic assessment to the use of public money that looks at the public money that used to be disbursed through basic payment scheme, very low, and the value for public money. We get through SFI. And as you go upwards into higher tier and landscape recovery, those assessments get bigger. So even though there might be different schemes, we still apply a common .
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Now that we've had this second window, that's going to be quite a substantial number of farms. So I think, as the minister has mentioned, there are a range of options we can look at for how we can learn the lessons from this year. Scrapping first come, first serve is one of those, and look at what we might do in terms of the scheme next year. There are some stakeholder organisations that will be calling for the actions that we offer to be those that deliver most of the environment. We will have to balance both maintaining an attractive offer, respecting what's happening in the industry.
And I think one of the challenges we face is whilst I fully understand that farmers want certainty and they want planning.
And I think one of the challenges we face is whilst I fully understand that farmers want certainty and they want planning.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
And that's why this year we tried to set out the details of the scheme as early as possible, even though the budget turned out to be not enough. But we are also in a highly dynamic environment. Agriculture doesn't sit still. Three years ago, arable farmers in particular didn't want to come into the scheme, so calibrations had to be made to make it more attractive. Now the arable sector is feeling a very different set of headwinds, so we need to find ways in which we can, again, there are discussions live with stakeholders at the moment, think about what's going on in the sector.
Look at the uptake against the various actions. Do we need to restrict the number of actions? Do we need to look at payment rates again? Do we need to look at the overall cap? These are all calibrations we can make to try and learn lessons from this year as we prepare the offer for next year, noting there's a real pressure to get clarity on this quickly. But equally, I'm hearing quite a lot of .
Look at the uptake against the various actions. Do we need to restrict the number of actions? Do we need to look at payment rates again? Do we need to look at the overall cap? These are all calibrations we can make to try and learn lessons from this year as we prepare the offer for next year, noting there's a real pressure to get clarity on this quickly. But equally, I'm hearing quite a lot of .
11:19
Ben Goldsborough
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Ben Goldsborough
Demand for quite fundamental change as well. Yeah, just extremely quickly on one of the points you raised there, Mike, and I'd just be interested in the minister's reply to this as well. SFI does not focus on food production. It focuses on public good for public money, but obviously without taking into account food production,
11:19
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Don't you think that's fundamentally flawed for the future security of our nation? I mean, obviously the farming roadmap sets out an ambition to at least maintain current levels of food production, and sector growth. Plans will drive that work, which industry led, as Mike said earlier. But more broadly, I want to see stronger, fairer, more sustainable funding streams for the sector, and that's why you're coming in. Looking at it with a fresh pair of eyes, I'm looking at the various schemes and making sure .
11:20
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
We do deliver on the commitments we've set out in the farming roadmap if you wanted to. Yeah, maybe just to directly address the point even further, in addition to what the minister said. So SFI, we very much see working in tandem with food production and not displacing it. And actually, some of the changes that we made in response to SFI 24 was in some cases, we'd made some payment rates so generous that whole fields were put into legume, fallow or herbal leys, for example. So we restricted the payment rates and restricted the amount of land for some of those actions to try and make sure we weren't.
inadvertently displacing food production. So it's very much a land sharing scheme, whereas some of the other schemes are mentioning, you might be looking more at taking land out of .
inadvertently displacing food production. So it's very much a land sharing scheme, whereas some of the other schemes are mentioning, you might be looking more at taking land out of .
11:20
Ben Goldsborough
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Ben Goldsborough
Production and landscape recovery. If planting trees or restoring peat bog is your aim. But isn't the heart of the problem with SFI 26? Part two that we've just seen is not necessarily the case. It could be the best administered scheme in the world. The reason why we've got such a dash for people going for it, because there's no profitability in farming, for the production of food, and because the government and previous governments have taken the opinion that there isn't going to be a basic payment system now for the production of food, our farmers are. consistently be disappointed by any process that we put in place.
Is that .
Is that .
11:21
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Something that you're considering in terms of reviewing the system going forward? I mean, obviously we've responded to Minette Batters profitability review, which is really important piece of work that we commissioned in government alongside the roadmap. So very much keen to make sure we are driving. productivity and. profitability in the sector. That's why I think these growth plans are really important, and the work of the Partnership Board that I mentioned earlier is vital as well, but we need to make sure the .
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Ben Goldsborough
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Ben Goldsborough
Scheme match the overall strategic ambitions as we've set out in the roadmap. Aren't we really in risk here though unfortunately, of just producing a lot of strategies and roadmaps and plans, which only do good for the forestry sector and nothing else, and we're not actually putting any additional funding. We're not looking at how we can streamline processes through either. regulation or tax .
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
A strict economic definition, so I production, I think it's something that has wider societal benefits. The more food we can produce domestically, I think it contributes to our national food security. I should confess, as I'm probably displaying, I'm not an economist. Whether or not it's strict meet the strict definition. Probably not is my instinct. But that doesn't mean that food production isn't important. And in fact, in our land use framework and in the farming roadmap, we committed, I think for the first time, strong wording about wanting .
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11:23
Alistair Carmichael
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Alistair Carmichael
Production to be at least maintained, if not grown with seeing. I started this right at the top, talking about the damage to reputation and the standing amongst farmers. If you were one of the farmers that didn't get your application and you don't know what you're going to do between now and the beginning of next year, I allocation. And you heard that the government at the biodiversity Cop has just announced something just shy of £2 million to go into the purchase of the Rothbury estate, on top of £5 million of public money that's come from the National Lottery Fund.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
How do you think you would feel? I mean, obviously, I've heard. frustrations from colleagues today and indeed from the farm visits I've done following the closure of the scheme. That's why I think being really clear on what our vision is around how we're supporting a profitable and productive farming sector is vital, which is why I think the roadmap is a key document to drive the .
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Leads on the specific issues. But, Mike, I don't know if you wanted to chip in on that specific. Yeah. So this funding didn't come from the farming budget. It was elsewhere in Defra's resources. And it was an explicit commitment made in regards to the government's international commitments on 30 by 30. Now, one of the issues that we will obviously be looking at closely is how this might affect the tenants on the .
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Higher tier and landscape recovery are living up to those aims? Mike So on Countryside Stewardship higher tier, we opened it on a new live service only last year, last September. Prior to that, it was a legacy of long standing problems. We were reliant on paper based application forms, and we've already secured. 751 live IT agreements worth. 31.8 million since we opened that service, but we absolutely recognise that there was more we need to do to try and. simplify countryside stewardship. Higher tier. We've made commitments about wanting to move away from the invitation only approach, and we've introduced a new expression of interest process to try and make it easier for more farmers to access the scheme.
We've introduced some new single action agreements, for example on woodland creation or on species rich grassland, which is a way in which we hope we can ease some of the pressure on SFI. And there's further work that we're doing. We're providing advice for the minister right now in terms of other changes we think we can make to higher tier in order to get more people into it. I think the one thing that I would say about higher tier is it is very analogous to sort of similar schemes, such as the old countryside stewardship, environmental stewardship and new countryside stewardship.
Sorry for the stewardship overload. Those schemes have been operating in this country since, I think, 1989. We have good experience of them. We've Natural England advisors have been working on them for a while. So whilst that sort of the new higher tier is relatively, it's only a year since we put it on the system. It is building on decades of practice for landscape recovery. That is definitely the newest and the most innovative of all of the schemes that form the Environmental Land Management Suite. We've currently got 56 projects in the pipeline, three of which have moved into implementation.
I think we recognise that some of the complexity that we've encountered in a new, innovative scheme of trying to get multiple landowners to agree to long term actions at scale across big.
We've introduced some new single action agreements, for example on woodland creation or on species rich grassland, which is a way in which we hope we can ease some of the pressure on SFI. And there's further work that we're doing. We're providing advice for the minister right now in terms of other changes we think we can make to higher tier in order to get more people into it. I think the one thing that I would say about higher tier is it is very analogous to sort of similar schemes, such as the old countryside stewardship, environmental stewardship and new countryside stewardship.
Sorry for the stewardship overload. Those schemes have been operating in this country since, I think, 1989. We have good experience of them. We've Natural England advisors have been working on them for a while. So whilst that sort of the new higher tier is relatively, it's only a year since we put it on the system. It is building on decades of practice for landscape recovery. That is definitely the newest and the most innovative of all of the schemes that form the Environmental Land Management Suite. We've currently got 56 projects in the pipeline, three of which have moved into implementation.
I think we recognise that some of the complexity that we've encountered in a new, innovative scheme of trying to get multiple landowners to agree to long term actions at scale across big.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Is perhaps harder than we thought it would have been when we first had the ideas for the scheme. But we are again preparing advice for ministers on various things we can take to open up the pipeline and get more projects through to implementation. There are some due to go into implementation very soon,
11:28
Josh Newbury
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Josh Newbury
But again, it's ministers have asked us for advice about what more we can do to open that up, and I really welcome a lot of those changes that you set out to higher tier. I think that will enable a lot more particularly smaller farms to to get in, which was a real concern we had when we kind of took over as committee a couple of years ago. But when we spoke to Baroness batters in reference to landscape recovery, she made it clear that she fears that the way that the scheme is.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Do you think that represents good value for the taxpayer or for nature? Well, thank you for the question. And I mentioned earlier, when I came in to post, I was very keen to understand all the schemes. And do you see how complicated they are and how we might do things differently? Is something that I've heard loud and clear from the sector. I was keen to get up to to Cumbria, to see Upper Dublin and see what was going on there and what I saw. There was a young farmer who was really. ambitious and hopeful for the future as a result of that money going in.
But just to pick up on the specific points that you raised, Josh, I think, you know, it's a complex scheme. The governance is tricky, but we are investing obviously significant amounts of public money over a significant amount of time and therefore working through what that looks like is absolutely a priority .
But just to pick up on the specific points that you raised, Josh, I think, you know, it's a complex scheme. The governance is tricky, but we are investing obviously significant amounts of public money over a significant amount of time and therefore working through what that looks like is absolutely a priority .
11:30
Josh Newbury
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Josh Newbury
Of mine and welcome any feedback or concerns to feed into that process. Okay. I'll come back to landscape recovery in a minute. But just going back to higher tier, earlier this year, Defra announced new single focus high tier agreements, as you mentioned, for species rich grassland and scheduled monuments, because clearly the department has got specific objectives on those, and it thinks the scheme could help to reach those. In stark contrast, though, to what we've discussed around SFI, despite there being a budget for. 1200 agreements, it seems from what we can see publicly that only. 650 expressions of interest were received between July and September.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Why do you think that scheme isn't attracting farmers? Yeah, so I'd want to check those numbers. I'm not disputing them, by the way. They just don't have them before me. But I think some of the changes we announced earlier in July are still being worked through, if you like. So we're trying to, as broadly as possible in in the right sequence, move away from that invitation only to date, it's been quite heavily and advisor led scheme. We're also looking to see if there's ways in which we can get external. advisors to be able to help sign off applications, because we're aware of resource pressures in Natural England.
So the sort of changes that we announced in July at Groundswell are very much a first step in terms of what we're trying to do to open up higher tier stewardship. Again, this was something that we discussed with a group of. stakeholders within the last two weeks in terms of some .
So the sort of changes that we announced in July at Groundswell are very much a first step in terms of what we're trying to do to open up higher tier stewardship. Again, this was something that we discussed with a group of. stakeholders within the last two weeks in terms of some .
11:31
Josh Newbury
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Josh Newbury
Of the other things and some of the other actions we can take. It's a work in progress. Well, we've heard as a committee that a particular clause in agreements that would allow Defra to unilaterally withdraw funding is something that's particularly causing concern. Farmers who understandably don't want to make permanent changes to the way that they manage their land, only to find that funding then disappears, is that .
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
You've been picking that up as a concern. That puts some of them off from expressing an interest. Thank you for flagging that very much. An issue that had been raised with me. So I basically brought together different applicants to understand some of the challenges and issues as they sort of progress their applications.
11:32
Josh Newbury
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Josh Newbury
It's definitely something that I'm aware of and exploring with my officials. Okay. And you mentioned, Mike, you're kind of looking at where to go next. Are you looking to redeploy that money elsewhere? Are you looking to broaden the focus of the agreements that are available, or you're just going to do another promotion .
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Drive and hope that you reach that 1200, potentially for the money to be spent? So what we're very much focused on is trying to simplify the schemes on an administrative basis so that we don't have a bottleneck of people wanting to get in because they're waiting for either permissions from Natural England advisors or others. So it's administrative changes that we're focused on that the scheme is it's high ambition in terms of the outcomes that it's pegged to in terms of either triple C restoration in particular, where you need quite specific actions on specific landscapes. So it's always going to be more involved from a delivery perspective than SFI, which is designed to be self-service.
But I think what we're trying to do is take out any unnecessary .
But I think what we're trying to do is take out any unnecessary .
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Into that? As you alluded to, some of the sort of challenges of complexity of it? Yeah, I mean, it picks up on what I was saying earlier around some of the barriers and challenges that the sector has faced. There's unique partnerships being established. You know, these are things that people are signing up to which will have quite lasting impact. So working through that. detail is vital. They are complex agreements, essentially.
And as Mike says, we want to sort of make that .
And as Mike says, we want to sort of make that .
11:33
Josh Newbury
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Josh Newbury
Process simpler. So that's something that we're very much focusing on. And you mentioned that in the farming rollback, it mentions that the deaf will provide information about future rounds of landscape recovery in 2026. Obviously, we know that applications haven't been open at all during this Parliament, given that we're a little over two months away from the end of the year now, do you intend .
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Sarah Dyke
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Sarah Dyke
For me at the moment. Okay. Thank you chair. Thank you. Chair. Recently, I went out to the Northmoor just outside Langport to meet the project team behind the Greater Sedgemoor Landscape Recovery Project and Matt Damon Bridge, who from the RSPB, who is leading on that? They've got over. 4000 acres in that scheme. They're at advanced stage of their.
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Sarah Dyke
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Sarah Dyke
And could I ask your department to push on that so that we can get this project off the ground? Also, bearing in mind what Josh has just said, they have said to me very. explicitly that there is a real bottleneck getting farmers to take up on this scheme. because of that two year. withdrawal element, because they're making a long term commitment, they need to be able to plan, and that is one of the problems that they're not getting all the farmers within that catchment set up. So if we can, we can deliver on that. But I'd also like to specifically ask if we can get that this this project, the Greater Sedgemoor Landscape Recovery Project, up and running.
I've also got another one in my patch, the adapting the levels, which is also at a stage. I'd like to very much .
I've also got another one in my patch, the adapting the levels, which is also at a stage. I'd like to very much .
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
End of 2027? So I might need to come back in terms of by the end of 2027. But I know as of right now, we have. 84,000 live Elm revenue agreements in place at the moment. Clearly, as part of the work that the minister is alluding to in terms of how we recalibrate SFI, we know we've got lots of schemes and agreements that are due to expire next year. We're trying to again work with stakeholders to think how far can we spread the money and some of those decisions that we take over the coming months about the design of schemes for next year will have a material impact on the .
11:36
Ben Goldsborough
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Ben Goldsborough
Number of agreements by the end of 2027. So that's why it's difficult to speculate. I think it's one of those things that, though, that I'd really urge the department to actually get a proper number on, because if you don't know the numbers that are going to be outside of the scheme, I would ask what support is going to be made available to them, because we need to make sure that all our farmers are being supported in best possible ways. So have you got .
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Any sort of future plans on how you support people outside of the schemes? Well, again, just one of the comments I made earlier, which I think one of your colleagues also picked up on, SFI is not designed to be a universal income support payment, so there will always be a finite budget for it. We would love to see as many farmers as possible adopting more nature friendly farming practices, regenerative farming practices. That's very much the ambition in the roadmap. We've got public money that we'll try and go as far as possible to encourage that we know and recognise, and we set this out, I think, quite honestly, in the roadmap as well.
Over time we expect the balance of schemes to change. But at the moment SFI is not .
Over time we expect the balance of schemes to change. But at the moment SFI is not .
11:37
Ben Goldsborough
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Ben Goldsborough
11:38
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
That you'd be planning on doing to help in terms of regulatory framework there , working with it? Yeah, thank you for that. And obviously, what I want to do is make sure that our farmers are equipped to deliver what they need to deliver. And I have a key role in making that happen with my officials. And that's why, you know, lots of things we set out in the farming roadmap were to drive productivity and profitability. We mentioned the growth sector plans earlier. We mentioned the issues around water storage as well, looking at how we change. regulations and do things differently .
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
To in order to achieve profitability is absolutely a priority of mine. Can I maybe just add because I think it's relevant to your final point? So we have commissioned a law commission to undertake a review in the environmental legislation that applies to agriculture. That review launched in April earlier this year, and we're expecting it to conclude in early 2028. And the Law Commission, obviously a leading independently, but they are planning to do a consultation on changes that we can make to simplify that suite of environmental legislation. So we are on in terms of regulation, we're trying to look systematically at all of the things we might need .
11:39
Ben Goldsborough
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Ben Goldsborough
To encourage the profitable, productive, sustainable, resilient sector we want. Okay. And just turning towards fair access and food security. So one thing I'd be interested to know is how will Defa replace the first come, first serve aspects of the SFI system in. 2027 to ensure funding reaches farmers delivering the greatest environmental benefits without. disadvantaging smaller farms or,
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Undermining domestic food production. Well, thank you for that. And obviously, there are some trade offs we need to think through as we co-design the scheme for next year. And I mentioned earlier about the kind of workshops we've been doing with the sector. I'm also keen to hear from. parliamentarians about what they want to see in the scheme, looking like for the future. There's only a finite resource for SFI, but working .
11:39
Ben Goldsborough
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Ben Goldsborough
Through that detail with you to design the scheme for the future is absolute priority one. One thing that I'm slightly concerned about that Mike, you said earlier on, is. effectively food doesn't have an economic benefit. When I said, would food be. included in a reviewed system going forward as a benefit for public payment? I'm .
11:40
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Really concerned if that's a thought of Defra going forward. So I think I was answering your the specific point about is food considered a public good, and I was trying to give you the sort of economic textbook answer. I think I've been in the department 26 years. I've never seen. There have been so much of a focus within the Department on both environmental aspects of farming and economic aspects of farming. We tried to set that out in a roadmap, and ministers have talked about that being two sides of the same coin. We've got commitments made in the land use framework and in the farming roadmap around at least maintaining domestic production.
We've set up the Farming and Food Partnership Board on the back of the batter's review. We're trying to get sector growth plans in as many sectors as possible, though, starting with horticulture and poultry, because they're the two where we see the biggest early opportunities. But that's not where our ambition ends. So I don't necessarily agree with that characterization that we do not take food and food production. Importantly. In fact, you only have to look at the hearing in front of the Public Accounts Committee last week where our permanent secretary was talking about food security being national security, and the work we're doing on food resilience.
I don't think it's ever been as .
We've set up the Farming and Food Partnership Board on the back of the batter's review. We're trying to get sector growth plans in as many sectors as possible, though, starting with horticulture and poultry, because they're the two where we see the biggest early opportunities. But that's not where our ambition ends. So I don't necessarily agree with that characterization that we do not take food and food production. Importantly. In fact, you only have to look at the hearing in front of the Public Accounts Committee last week where our permanent secretary was talking about food security being national security, and the work we're doing on food resilience.
I don't think it's ever been as .
11:41
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
High up the departmental agenda in my period there since 2000. And just to add to that, obviously food is a key part of my portfolio. The Good Food strategy came out in July of 2025. It's an area of priority for me, and obviously there's themes around resilience, affordability and healthy support for children and young people as well. Some good outcomes have been achieved from that .
11:41
Ben Goldsborough
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Ben Goldsborough
Strategy, but we're working through at the moment what that might look like for the future. Okay. And just moving on to a slightly different aspect within Elms, obviously nature markets. So the farming roadmap does. envisage private nature markets playing a greater role in farm incomes. Yet many farmers tell us that markets do not simply exist for them. So when we went up to the Westmorland Show to gather evidence up there, we had Lisa Bennett, who gave evidence to us. She's a local farmer up there. And when I raised a question about nature markets, she just shrugged her shoulders.
If, say, I've never heard of this before. Upland farmers. This isn't for likes of us. It's for large arable, maybe down in south in Norfolk, for example. So I would like to hear what concrete steps Defra is actually taking to develop these markets. And how will they ensure that public funding remains .
If, say, I've never heard of this before. Upland farmers. This isn't for likes of us. It's for large arable, maybe down in south in Norfolk, for example. So I would like to hear what concrete steps Defra is actually taking to develop these markets. And how will they ensure that public funding remains .
11:42
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Available where private finance cannot take that slack? Yes, I think there was a publication we put out yesterday called Growing Places, which very much looks at this issue of how can we get more private finance into farming in some respects, farmers I visited around the country, some of them would already benefit within their food chain for producing to a certain standard that doesn't necessarily need government intervention or government backed schemes to enable it. So there are pockets of it happening. One of the things that we've also committed to is to set up a working group looking at private finance, to try and understand more systematically where the barriers are.
So I think the opportunities are big. We're trying to get private finance in alongside landscape .
So I think the opportunities are big. We're trying to get private finance in alongside landscape .
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Ben Goldsborough
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Ben Goldsborough
Recovery as well. But again, there is much more work we need to do on. This isn't the other issue that we face with this is it is a free market. There is no sort of set. structure for these private investors come in and set out schemes which make sense for farmers. We. I can speak to some of my farmers who are on the Norfolk , Suffolk border. They have been involved with schemes with Nestle or PepsiCo or other bodies like that. But then you'll go two mile up the road and there won't be a scheme available.
And is the department going to take any action to setting out a .
And is the department going to take any action to setting out a .
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Framework of what these private finance initiatives should actually look like? That's what I think this working group I mentioned will absolutely look at where are the pockets, where it is actually working. And I, you know, I recognise it's pockets. It's not widespread. What are the conditions for success where it is successful? What are the barriers where it's not working and access to setting up the market in the first place is probably the biggest one of those.
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Ben Goldsborough
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Ben Goldsborough
Certainty and consistency, we're looking to deliver over. 25 year plan, essentially. And just for you, Minister, do you have full confidence that the private sector will be able to take over all the slack within the system to finance these schemes? Because obviously, as the processes are set out from government expenditure, it will decrease on SFI. It will close eventually in the hope that private .
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Finance will take over the complete. Do you do you honestly believe that will happen? I mean, we want to work in in cooperation and partnership with the private sector. I mean, I think the growth plans are going to be really important. They're industry led, but certainly I'm keen to make sure we're engaging banks around the opportunities are for the farming .
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Ben Goldsborough
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Ben Goldsborough
Community going forward. So there's a nice blend of both public and private investment. And do you think in the economic climate, we are in the world that there will be private companies that will wish to invest in these environmental schemes, or will they just see it as a nicety that they can go without? A lot of my farmers turn around and say, they're only doing this because it's greenwashing. And then once they .
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
England in 20 years time. What do you see the uplands looking like? Well, thank you for the question. Henry. And uplands will be a priority of mine as a new minister. That's why I've been to Dartmoor. I've been to Cumbria to understand some of the complexities and challenges that are, in some cases, long standing. And obviously, the land use framework is a key document in terms of recognising the. significance of the uplands. Obviously, there's issues around grazing numbers and how the land is used, and that's why I think the land use framework is vital and hopefully will lead to better decision making.
I'm also really mindful of the important work that Doctor Hilary Cotton's doing down in Dartmoor, which is setting out a longer term vision with the community down there, which is a place based approach, which is community led, which I hope will deliver lasting change in the area. And obviously, alongside that, we need a key role around the funding streams that we offer and to deliver on that vision. I think it means .
I'm also really mindful of the important work that Doctor Hilary Cotton's doing down in Dartmoor, which is setting out a longer term vision with the community down there, which is a place based approach, which is community led, which I hope will deliver lasting change in the area. And obviously, alongside that, we need a key role around the funding streams that we offer and to deliver on that vision. I think it means .
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Might think it's semantic, but it is what you think in terms of that. So I mean, grazing numbers are obviously really important. And those are issues that farmers raise with me as are delivering environmental outcomes. And I think it's more nuanced than kind of this binary choice. And obviously, Natural England has a particular role to play around supporting farmers with their H lease agreements. But I recognise that these are contested spaces, and that's why having a clear.
strategy and vision for these .
strategy and vision for these .
11:47
Henry Tufnell
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Henry Tufnell
Communities is vital, which is why I welcome the work the doctor at Hilary Cotton has been doing, because, I mean, I should declare that my dad's a non-executive board member of Natural England before we come to Natural England, but we've got five and a half. 5400 higher level stewardship arrangements are going to.
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Henry Tufnell
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Henry Tufnell
And, you know, you talk we talked about and that's the reason why I thought it was important to understand whether or not farming or grazing is issued to be managed or rather sort of integrate integral to the to the beauty of the uplands and in of itself. Because how many of those agreement holders do you have a route into replacement schemes,
11:48
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
And how will you prevent a funding gap for those that don't? So obviously you want to avoid a cliff edge. I've already had those conversations with Natural England. Obviously some will be expiring. We're working through those specifically as we speak in the case of Dartmoor, and we'll continue to prioritise that work. It's really important. I think, that obviously what we do in investing in our uplands is tailored to habitat, site.
conditions and environmental outcomes, and that's why I think there's more work .
conditions and environmental outcomes, and that's why I think there's more work .
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Henry Tufnell
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Henry Tufnell
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
To try and address that cliff edge specifically? I want to ask the capacity. Yeah. So, I mean, maybe first reaction to one of your first questions. You know, I can remember when the Lake District was designated as a Unesco World Heritage Site. It was because it was a farmed landscape. So we absolutely want thriving farming throughout the throughout the country. On the specifics of the HLS explorers that we've got, what we're trying to do is take a cohort by cohort approach, and this will vary depending on the land. In particular, if there is any land associated with some of the agreements and the state of that sea, because there may well be some HLS agreements as they expire, that it might make sense to just try and do a sort of move of best fit into higher tier without trying to elaborate those agreements.
There may be others, depending on the state of the sea condition and the management options or practices that agreements historically have funded that might need more of a hands on approach and more discussion and negotiation with natural England. So Natural England are on it in terms of trying to work through those cohorts and how to sort of make sure that we've got a smooth transition. And it might mean taking slightly different approaches for different groups of agreements, depending on, in particular, the status of the sea.
But .
There may be others, depending on the state of the sea condition and the management options or practices that agreements historically have funded that might need more of a hands on approach and more discussion and negotiation with natural England. So Natural England are on it in terms of trying to work through those cohorts and how to sort of make sure that we've got a smooth transition. And it might mean taking slightly different approaches for different groups of agreements, depending on, in particular, the status of the sea.
But .
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Is that what we should expect for Cumbria. 76% stocking rate? So as our. independent statutory nature conservation adviser, Natural England will look at the state of individual SIS, it's not my understanding that they're providing a blanket one size fits all approach across the country. They will look at what's needed .
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Henry, I mean, I've been down to Dartmoor, attended the Dartmoor Forum that Sir Geoffrey Cox hosts. I've also met with a number of farmers through the groups that Hillary Cotton was convening. I think it's really important that we do engage through local. processes and local organisations, and obviously down in Dartmoor there are existing groups and poorer that we work with in order to deliver the .
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Henry Tufnell
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Henry Tufnell
Kind of commitments that we want to see delivered. It's not that's not so. So you're saying that we shouldn't lead with Natural England, that there should there should be a more. Because if we're if we're putting all the emphasis on natural England to lead this process and deal with this cliff edge, what we're hearing from other stakeholders is that might create. I mean, either we're going to end up with. 76% destocking rates, or we're going to end up with farmers, local farmers on the land feeling that .
11:53
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
They're not being listened to or not being taken along on this process. We're always keen to work in partnership with Natural England, respecting that they have, by statute. independent status as our nature conservation advisor, and what we're trying to do is work with the Natural England team. And I should say, I've also heard anecdotal evidence where the relationship with Natural England on the ground is very good with some landowners, and there's something there that I think how we get that more common across the country, because it does work in some areas, but we are trying to work in partnership with Natural England to look at all of the expiries that we've got to try and take that chunking approach to think, how do we treat different cohorts of agreements,
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Henry Tufnell
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Henry Tufnell
And then we'll be providing advice to ministers on the best way forward. Okay, I'm conscious of time, but if we the what about the social and cultural value? So if we if we're thinking about going back to this, this issue and you talked about how you think that farmers play an integral role in terms of the landscape of somewhere like Cumbria, are you are you worried that we don't have any .
11:54
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Emphasis on on those traditions, traditions, traditional practices? I mean, that's why I think Doctor Hilary Cotton's work is really important around looking at sort of the system approach to supporting the kind of important heritage, as well as the habitat protection and grazing. levels and setting out sort of longer term vision. As I mentioned, I think for far too long, upland communities have seen sort of. converging challenges. And that's why sort of addressing those issues in partnership and what Hillary's doing, which hopefully .
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
That's all. Something that is very concerned about. Yeah, those are issues that are on our radar. And again, it will depend in particular where we're talking about Ellis Island, where there's quite specific regulatory framework that actually will not operate within. It's really hard to give you sort of here's the one size fits all approach, but I think the .
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Henry Tufnell
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Henry Tufnell
Best outcomes we've had for him in agri environment schemes over 40 years have been asking for one size fits all approach, because that's not what anyone's telling us when we're going. You know, we went up to Westmoreland show. We've been engaging with stakeholders and the farmers. I mean, I think you had one farmer quoted to you earlier. That's definitely not the approach that we're that we're we're being reflected back to us for the committee. Can I just quickly ask about the Commons land and that common .
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Being able to apply so they can apply, but there's certain issues at the moment with the system. Yeah. So we're so the the system. historically has not provided for this, at least on the common land itself, although in by land can be accessible. We are currently piloting an approach which is RPARI should say, to see if we can get countryside stewardship higher tier land onto the system. And if that works, we would look to open up the scale of that.
But at the moment you're correct. Common land is not eligible for SFI at the .
But at the moment you're correct. Common land is not eligible for SFI at the .
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Alistair Carmichael
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Alistair Carmichael
Excluded there on the case, fixing it . Now, in terms of the trials in the pilot, before we move on, Henry's point, about 75, 76% destocking. That comes because you have a very particular view on how Dartmoor should be managed and how it should look. That's the vision point. Surely the vision should not be coming from Natural England. It should be coming from the Department, and Natural England should then .
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
And what we're trying to do with Natural England is work with the land managers down there to see if, and I should say as well, with the Dartmoor Dartmoor Land Use Management Group, chaired by Phil Stocker, to see if there are different ways in which we can tackle this problem. Now, I know quite often the accusation is around blanket stocking rates. Actually, I've heard the former CEO and chair of Natural England talk about the biggest issue is overwintering of sheep. So one of the things that we're working with at the moment with Natural England is if there are ways in which we can reduce overwintering of sheep without reducing overall stocking levels.
So there's a level of detail beneath that sort of headline figure, which I know has got some traction. But we are trying to balance both Natural England and our .
So there's a level of detail beneath that sort of headline figure, which I know has got some traction. But we are trying to balance both Natural England and our .
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Alistair Carmichael
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Alistair Carmichael
Charlie. We're awash with them at the time, and we've got the land use framework we've had the review into for profitability. We've got the farming roadmap. Now given if we just take the land use framework calling for 9% of agricultural land to be focused on environmental and climate benefits, we've got a further 5% still to be used for food production whilst incorporating environmental environmental benefits, 2% to be used for housing. How does that .
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Marry up with the batters review and with the farming roadmap? Yes, obviously the land use framework is exactly that. What it says on the tin. It's an overall framework and more work to do to to help deliver that. But it's about making sure we're making better decisions based on the land use across our country. On the farming roadmap, obviously, this is about setting certainty and consistency for the sector over the next 25 years.
And it's very much it's the document that's driving the .
And it's very much it's the document that's driving the .
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Alistair Carmichael
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Alistair Carmichael
Decisions and inform the advice when it comes to me, is absolutely a priority of mine. I take one sector briefly. I think poultry is a really interesting one because we do import large amounts of chicken from countries that we perhaps wouldn't choose to produce it ourselves. China's one example, but other countries in the Far East, there hasn't been a single broiler unit approved new broiler unit approved in this country for the last two years because of problems with the planning system. We've got NGOs jumping on the back of every planning application, issues with statutory consultees such as Natural England, preventing increased domestic food security and increased food production.
Supermarkets and processors will tell you if we produce more chicken meat at home, they will be able to sell it. So can I ask you, Minister, to go away, work with your colleagues across Mhclg and others to ensure that we break down these barriers comes at no .
Supermarkets and processors will tell you if we produce more chicken meat at home, they will be able to sell it. So can I ask you, Minister, to go away, work with your colleagues across Mhclg and others to ensure that we break down these barriers comes at no .
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Cost to the government, and it's actually a real boost to the rural economy. Thank you for that, Charlie. And that's absolutely the spirit in which the Partnership Board is working and the growth sector plans that we are taking forward working with industry. So I mentioned. horticulture and poultry one. We're expecting those in the new year. I think they can be really .
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Alistair Carmichael
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Alistair Carmichael
Helpful documents that will take forward the growth that we need to see in poultry in other sectors, but specifically on the planning point as well. You undertake to work with colleagues in the planning department to try and look at a way in which the current system is preventing. And it's not just we've got farmers wanting to replace decaying buildings to increase to reduce stocking density. So better welfare, better for the environment because they're capturing more emissions and yet they're unable to do that.
And it seems to me barmy that .
And it seems to me barmy that .
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Thank you. Are you going to get a food strategy? So we've obviously already got the good food strategy, which came out in July 2025. I'm working through the details of that. There's some performance metrics on their way. Some good things have been achieved through the Good Food. Neighbourhoods scheme, which was announced relatively recently, £10 million to support 45 local authorities across the country. The introduction of breakfast clubs, the increased eligibility for free school meals.
I want to make sure we get on and deliver some good, positive .
I want to make sure we get on and deliver some good, positive .
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Ben Goldsborough
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Ben Goldsborough
Up is around horticulture. So Ben, do you want to take the lead on that? Thank you very much, chair. I know that's already been alluded to in terms of horticulture roadmap and plan that's coming through, which is going to be co-produced. But within that sector, the protected horticulture sector, I must admit, I've got the greenhouse growers, which are in Kirby, been in my constituency, which are on the Crown Point estate. They are facing a lot of trouble because obviously there's not a SIC code that allows them to access the energy intensive industry. compensation scheme. Obviously, without that, with rising.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Excluding this sector from the E I, I support schemes, so thank you for this. And I mentioned the importance we're placing on the horticultural sector, hence why we're developing a sector growth plan with them. And it's a real pleasure to meet with representatives of the industry in the last couple of weeks with the NFU, to work through the detail of what that plan will look like, which we hope to publish early in the New year. You all know that I think 20% of farm gate value comes from the cultural sector, but only 2% of land.
It's a huge opportunity, I think, for the sector going forward. I'm aware of some of the challenges that they are facing around labour, around energy costs and others with regards to specifically around high energy costs, recognise that this is a significant concern for industry and we're working through that. Having met with the industry recently, I've seen it directly in terms of the issues that were raised when I joined you in Norfolk. But indeed, when I visited the Isle of Wight tomatoes over summer as well.
So we're continuing to look at options .
It's a huge opportunity, I think, for the sector going forward. I'm aware of some of the challenges that they are facing around labour, around energy costs and others with regards to specifically around high energy costs, recognise that this is a significant concern for industry and we're working through that. Having met with the industry recently, I've seen it directly in terms of the issues that were raised when I joined you in Norfolk. But indeed, when I visited the Isle of Wight tomatoes over summer as well.
So we're continuing to look at options .
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Ben Goldsborough
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Ben Goldsborough
A success. If I can think specifically wants to add just the other thing, just quickly from me is last time that I asked this question to the former Secretary of State for Defra, I was told by a representative from the department, well, it's a it's for the the global trade bodies. It's also for the National Audit Office to define this. And it just didn't seem to me there was any ministerial engagement on this process. So can you give .
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