Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee
Tuesday 3rd November 2026
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10:01
Alistair Carmichael
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Alistair Carmichael
Order, order! Good morning, everyone, and welcome to this meeting of the environment, Food and Rural Affairs Select Committee. We return this morning to our inquiry into the future of farming. And in particular, we are going to be looking at the animal health implications and indeed, the commercial implications of the 2026 bluetongue outbreak. Can I welcome you, Kat Gwen, to the committee? And just for the benefit of those who are following our proceedings and for our own official records.
Can I ask you to introduce yourselves, please?
Can I ask you to introduce yourselves, please?
10:01
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10:02
Alistair Carmichael
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Alistair Carmichael
Okay. Well good morning both. The bulk of our questioning this morning is going to be around the handling of the bluetongue outbreak. But as inevitably seems to be the case at the moment, there's always something else coming over the horizon. You will have seen the reports of the outbreak in Wales and over the border into England of Qimonda virus. Can Gwen, do you have any thoughts to offer us on how that should be handled? And if there are perhaps some lessons to be learned from our experiences earlier in the years?
10:02
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
When I. I mean, the first thing to say is it's obviously a worrying time, I think, to be a farm vet or a farmer. And on the back of this year's bluetongue outbreak, to have Qimonda now confirmed is an additional worry for everyone. There is still a lot of uncertainty. It's very new and was reported yesterday, but I think there's a feeling among vets that this was only a matter of time in the UK that we would be picking up Qimonda. We knew that it was in the Channel Islands and in Ireland. And so the fact that this has been these cases have been picked up is, I suppose, perversely reassuring in that the surveillance is doing what it should.
And we have picked these cases up.
And we have picked these cases up.
10:03
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Yeah. I mean, it is a it is a concern for for livestock keepers and farmers in the NFU. We've we've been trying to raise awareness about it for the last you know, the last couple of months, I still think it will probably come as a nasty shock and surprise to an awful lot of farmers. I'm sure they're not aware of it. Some of them. And I think the very fact that, you know, there is no easy treatment, no easy control mechanism, I think that will probably concern them as well, because, you know, it's just something else that they're going to have to have.
10:04
Alistair Carmichael
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Alistair Carmichael
Because it does feel like there's sort of just wave after we've we've had avian influenza, we've had bluetongue, we've now got qimonda. And on the continent, we've still got, I think, foot and mouth outbreak in parts of, of Eastern Europe. You've got African swine fever, which we thought was being held back by a fence down Germany, but now seems to have reappeared in Spain. It does, I guess, just emphasise the importance of vigilance and traceability in terms of livestock movements and the rest of it.
10:04
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
I think one of the things as well that that we need to start and think about is, is the country's capability to actually deal with, you know, with a situation where we've got several big exotic diseases all converging at once. And I think this is one thing that certainly is the NFU. We are very concerned that our capability just isn't there to deal with it on several fronts.
10:05
Alistair Carmichael
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Alistair Carmichael
We all talk about food security, but I mean, again, to pick from the news this morning about the hacking of freezers, you realise actually there's a cyber security aspect now to to food security as well. So that's why we're here. But so to come then just to the, the impact of, of the the bluetongue outbreak, I'll maybe start with you first and just take the most general broadest question. And that is tell us what the impact has been to the farmers financially, emotionally, to the animals in terms of their animal welfare and the sector as a whole.
And then Gwen will maybe get the same perspective from yourself from the profession's point of view.
And then Gwen will maybe get the same perspective from yourself from the profession's point of view.
10:06
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Okay. So I mean, the impact is much wider than just confirmed premises. So farmers have faced animal deaths, severe disease, reproductive losses, milk and growth losses, extra labour, veterinary costs, disruption to breeding and sales. And obviously as well we've got some losses will probably only be be known at the next lambing and calving times as well. We've also though had had lots of farmers under severe emotional pressure and stress as well. And I don't think that's something that we can ever forget. You know, we've we've done various meetings around, around some of the countries and especially those most hardest hit and the We've done various meetings around around some of the countries, and especially those most hardest hit .
And the emotional turmoil that that this has caused on farms has just been really stark. And they all said last year. So those animals in the southwest and those animals in Wales were. vulnerable from that moment to spread of the disease. They were vulnerable anyway. But it will have.
And the emotional turmoil that that this has caused on farms has just been really stark. And they all said last year. So those animals in the southwest and those animals in Wales were. vulnerable from that moment to spread of the disease. They were vulnerable anyway. But it will have.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Seven, eight when we had bluetongue eight as well. And I think the big difference that we've got to compare is the way that the policy was enacted. So bluetongue eight was a lot more highly regulated. As Gwen said, we snapped out of out of zones quite quickly with bluetongue three this time, whereas bluetongue eight was a lot more.
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Sarah Bool
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Sarah Bool
To questions around communication and messaging. And Sarah, you're going to lead the question there. Yes. Thank you chair. Yes. Just on that basis of, as you said, when the severity increased, although foreseeable risk, although probably unpredictable, how it was dealt with and you were just talking about the need to do more prevention rather than firefighting. And obviously vaccines are a key part of that. So why do we think actually, despite the fact that you had the hashtag battle Bluetongue campaign and everything last year, why why didn't it translate .
10:18
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Into earlier vaccinations? To both of you? You go first. I don't mind. I mean, it's in a way for many the million dollar question. I think there were some very valiant efforts to communicate. particularly on a vaccine uptake prior to this season. And there were some really good resources out there put together, and that messaging was there, but it didn't penetrate, I suppose. And I think, you know, it's. partly the nature of. communicating risk and discussing risk in uncertainty. It farmers are farmers and vets are always. balancing risk and benefit. And it's very difficult sometimes to invest in a just in case when you are when your margins are extremely tight and the vaccine isn't a cheap vaccine and the decision to vaccine.
vaccinate for farmers just in case was an expensive one, and therefore it was a hard sell. It is a difficult. Thing to say. We don't know that this will definitely be a problem, but if you want to protect yourself, you should vaccinate. And I think that, you know, it was the same on the continent. Vaccination rates increased. massively after there has been a big bad outbreak. And and so it's a very complex picture around this communication.
Vets did, I think, try very hard and find it.
vaccinate for farmers just in case was an expensive one, and therefore it was a hard sell. It is a difficult. Thing to say. We don't know that this will definitely be a problem, but if you want to protect yourself, you should vaccinate. And I think that, you know, it was the same on the continent. Vaccination rates increased. massively after there has been a big bad outbreak. And and so it's a very complex picture around this communication.
Vets did, I think, try very hard and find it.
10:19
10:19
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
But also very much. understood that the decision to vaccinate or not vaccinate is one of many, many decisions that farmers are making every day. And they have to balance risk and uncertainty. And in this case, I think there are a lot of farmers who wish they had vaccinated sooner. Yeah, I wouldn't disagree with any of that. I think, you know, kind of uncertain local risk, cost, fertility.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
You know, kind of a couple of years ago, we weren't having to battle some of the social media claims. So there was some. misinformation kind of flying around there as well, which all undermines confidence. But I think, I think what we have done really well this year, I think is, is that kind of, you know, bluetongue hub with the ruminant health and welfare group. So that was a collaboration from all of. industry HDB, you know, the vets, farming groups, everybody all kind of coalescing the messages. So there was one single place for. information and, you know, kind of to give government lots of credit.
I mean, they, they were firing their comms into that as well. So, you know, it's, it was a really good place. But, you know, we, we still had a lot of farmers were, were having to think, can I afford this vaccine? Can I get hold of the vaccine? You know, we had this all the supply .
I mean, they, they were firing their comms into that as well. So, you know, it's, it was a really good place. But, you know, we, we still had a lot of farmers were, were having to think, can I afford this vaccine? Can I get hold of the vaccine? You know, we had this all the supply .
10:21
Sarah Bool
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Sarah Bool
Issues as well. So so as Gwen says, it was really complicated. I think I just wanted to explore that because, as you said, there was a lot of misinformation about it around the infertility and the productivity impacts. Do you think we've tackled that in terms of the messaging now? Do you think we've dispelled that myth, or is that a message that anyone listening right now needs to hear very .
10:21
10:22
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
And let's face it, farm vets are are recognised as being trusted individuals for, for, for farmers. So I think the more that we can have those grown up conversations about what exactly vaccines do, they will not stop infection. They, you know, they can prevent some of the some of the problems they can make make it a less worse situation. I think the more that we can get that message out, there will always be misinformation. We'll never be able to get rid of it. Totally. If I can add to that, I agree with all of that.
And I think, you know, we are in a different world now when it comes to vaccine skepticism. And that has . changed perhaps. people's understanding of. vaccines and what they do. I think what we were dealing with here was a new vaccine as well, with very little last year, particularly. information on efficacy and on safety. So we knew it was safe. It was licensed well, it was allowed to be used in the UK. But what we have had is an increasing picture of how effective the vaccine is. So we know we're fairly confident now. But when vets were first having these conversations with farmers, there was a lot more uncertainty about how how valuable these vaccines would be.
And perhaps that.
And I think, you know, we are in a different world now when it comes to vaccine skepticism. And that has . changed perhaps. people's understanding of. vaccines and what they do. I think what we were dealing with here was a new vaccine as well, with very little last year, particularly. information on efficacy and on safety. So we knew it was safe. It was licensed well, it was allowed to be used in the UK. But what we have had is an increasing picture of how effective the vaccine is. So we know we're fairly confident now. But when vets were first having these conversations with farmers, there was a lot more uncertainty about how how valuable these vaccines would be.
And perhaps that.
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10:24
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Vaccine was released. I mean, it was a new vaccine as well. But the vaccine was released on a regional basis. And basically we rolled vaccine up the country. So we went I think I'm trying to remember, I basically kind of followed it, doing lots of meetings around, around the country. So we started off in the South east and the East Coast, and we gradually kind of moved vaccine as we hit various trigger points. And this was all done very much with, you know, with government kind of saying when the trigger points had been hit and then releasing licences for vaccine to be used by farmers in the new areas.
So they basically they over I think it was probably the course of, shall we say, nine months to a year, something like that. The vaccine was gradually rolled out. And ultimately we got ahead of the disease with the vaccine campaign. So ideally, yes, it worked. It did what it needed to do, but it also was a very costly process for government .
So they basically they over I think it was probably the course of, shall we say, nine months to a year, something like that. The vaccine was gradually rolled out. And ultimately we got ahead of the disease with the vaccine campaign. So ideally, yes, it worked. It did what it needed to do, but it also was a very costly process for government .
10:25
10:25
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Do you know why they didn't do it this time ? Or do you? Decisions we probably can't answer for for the policy, but I think it was probably that cost issue. I think, if I may, there has been a slight legacy from what happened with the. vaccination for BTV eight that has impacted on people's decision to vaccinate this time or not, and I think it was a victim of its own success almost. And there was an element of pushing to vaccinate and people spent money to vaccinate. And then it wasn't a problem because partly vaccinated, partly, perhaps.
Yes. And so that's something that our members have been saying, is that when they're having these conversations and trying to talk about.
Yes. And so that's something that our members have been saying, is that when they're having these conversations and trying to talk about.
10:26
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10:26
Sarah Bool
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Sarah Bool
Uncertainty, they're really hard conversations to have. So I guess really overall, the cost of not doing it is potentially much, far higher than, than doing it. So it's probably better to do it. The vaccine. We can say, look, it is it's new, but it's trusted. And then you flagged about the bluetongue hub. So basically, if we want to send a message to any of our farmers, just to make sure that they're looking there for all the information.
10:27
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10:28
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Cases and those cases being finally confirmed. And what we had in August that changed in. September was. In September. Government started. reporting suspicious cases. And therefore we had a much. better picture of what was happening. locally at that time. Before then, the picture of confirmed cases was 2 to 3 weeks old. By the time those cases were added to the map, which meant that. communicating the risk in those. areas in a an evolving situation that was changing almost daily was very difficult because you would try and, you know, you're trying to communicate that the risk is very high, and yet the map isn't reflecting it because it's reflecting 2 to 3 weeks ago.
And so it was it, it did take time, I think, to fully. appreciate the scale and. severity of what was happening in the southwest at the time because of that lag .
And so it was it, it did take time, I think, to fully. appreciate the scale and. severity of what was happening in the southwest at the time because of that lag .
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Affected animals? Is that what you're talking about in terms of that? Yeah. Sorry. I should have been more clear. What what happened is the heat map that was published was updated to include suspected cases that had been submitted. And that was a huge step forward. Vets found that, you know, vets still coming up and saying that that changed everything when it came to having those conversations with farmers and trying to show, look, this is what is happening. And it was more, much more real time, and it was much better at. communicating what was happening now.
And so I think that has been a huge step forward for everyone having that heat map. Yeah. I think as, as Gwen said, that that heat map was really. important comes back to, again, how farmers are balancing and managing risk. And I think, you know, kind of having those, those.
And so I think that has been a huge step forward for everyone having that heat map. Yeah. I think as, as Gwen said, that that heat map was really. important comes back to, again, how farmers are balancing and managing risk. And I think, you know, kind of having those, those.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
You know, suspected cases mapped, mapped, showed them that that neighborhood risk it put it into a different kind of quantity, quantity and fear for them. But yes, I mean, the delays that we were seeing in the peak, I mean, I had some farmers were reporting they were waiting a lot longer than three weeks for their for their test results to come in, certainly down in the southwest. And, you know, that's a horrendous position for a farmer to be to be placed in. And I get that there were, you know, there were reasons for it. And again, it comes back to this this kind of ability to have this kind of surge capacity when needed.
But, you know, kind of if you, as a farmer, you know, that you've got a problem, you've reported that problem, you know, you are now left having to deal with the aftermath and still no clear. confirmation of what you're dealing with. It becomes it feels as if it becomes an even worse problem. And as I say, it all adds to that emotional stress. So I don't think. I would like to think that we can actually review and take some, take some lessons and think about exactly what happened and why there was that delay, and at what point in the.
process those delays started to be kicked into the, you know, into the system. And it would be really good if we could come up with some kind of different way of doing things that made it a more, more.
But, you know, kind of if you, as a farmer, you know, that you've got a problem, you've reported that problem, you know, you are now left having to deal with the aftermath and still no clear. confirmation of what you're dealing with. It becomes it feels as if it becomes an even worse problem. And as I say, it all adds to that emotional stress. So I don't think. I would like to think that we can actually review and take some, take some lessons and think about exactly what happened and why there was that delay, and at what point in the.
process those delays started to be kicked into the, you know, into the system. And it would be really good if we could come up with some kind of different way of doing things that made it a more, more.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
On other. diseases at play and the impact of those circulating? I personally, from the Nfu's point of view, we're we we're worried because, you know, bluetongue could look like some other, you know, lots of other exotic diseases and, you know, you end up with reporting fatigue, I think, kicking in. So farmers are assuming that it's, it's bluetongue, even though everything is notifiable. And we've been telling farmers and reminding them of their of their.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
But, you know, kind of I just hope and pray that we're not missing things. I know there's winter surveillance is coming up and I am crossing my fingers that that winter surveillance that's done a lot more, a lot less passively, shall we say, doesn't identify some of the things that have slipped under the net. Yeah. And I would agree, you know, vets do have particularly foot and mouth at the front of their mind as a concern. Whenever you're looking at bluetongue. And even in those regions where vets were being called out and they were spending their entire day seeing sick animals with.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
You have to remain vigilant for foot and mouth. And you don't you know, it's it's a very difficult thing to. differentiate between the two. And that is a very big. responsibility being placed on that vet to , to report correctly, but to also. identify any suspicion that it could be foot and mouth and .
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
I think we. understand why that. Decision was made. And given the. extent to which bluetongue is now here, I think, you know, pragmatic. decisions have to be made on reporting. And it's not that BVA. necessarily disagree with that decision. I think the. decision was communicated at very short notice and without much. Without much consultation. I don't think with the. stakeholders we were. Made aware of maybe. 36 hours before the changes happened, that they would happen. And it was very difficult then to. communicate that to vets who were suddenly very worried that the ball would be in their court around deciding whether this was foot and mouth or not.
And the. communication was patchy and difficult in that time when the transition happened. I think what we do not yet have is good information on what impact that change in reporting has had on the levels of reporting of disease. So , yes, I think it wasn't necessarily the wrong decision, but perhaps it could have been.
And the. communication was patchy and difficult in that time when the transition happened. I think what we do not yet have is good information on what impact that change in reporting has had on the levels of reporting of disease. So , yes, I think it wasn't necessarily the wrong decision, but perhaps it could have been.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Then that is something to take very seriously. If it helps with reporting, then again, that is a good thing. So I think we would want to see some information about the impact before coming to a conclusion on that. Yeah. And I think, again, it comes back to that, that concept that . we need to have. confidence that in in a disease outbreak, we have insufficient.
capacity in, you know, in the reporting process, in the government vet.
capacity in, you know, in the reporting process, in the government vet.
10:36
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
In the lab. capacities to actually deal with, with what we need to do. What I hope is that we don't end up doing this type of big policy change in the middle of an outbreak just to deal with lack of infrastructure. I would like to think that it had been done with a lot of thought, a lot of understanding, a lot of training and a lot of support for for private vets and farmers so that they felt confident in what they were doing.
And it wasn't just a reaction to we have no more, we .
And it wasn't just a reaction to we have no more, we .
10:36
Henry Tufnell
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Henry Tufnell
Can't do this the way we're going to have to suddenly change overnight. Thank you, can I I'm a Welsh MP, so I'm in I'm in Pembrokeshire. And the chair has already alluded to the sort of different approaches in respect of Wales, Scotland and England. I think in terms of England having to pay farmers in England , having to pay for vet fees and.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Or thinking about some of those farmers who farm either side of a border. And I think that's where you start to get some some difficulties coming into the into this system. I think in terms of. equity when it comes to paying for official tests, I would like to see it being a bit more of an equitable. position .
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Supported in all tests in the same place. Right. So no. Well, I mean, we've we've now got the new lab capacity. We've got. So we've still got Pirbright is obviously the primary one. But I mean, they've just they've opened up. Morden and. Is it. They've got Weybridge. But they were also allowing I think it was Morden in Scotland and I think it was one of the Welsh universities was going to start.
You'd need to check with different APhA and things but. But I think they were kind of trying .
You'd need to check with different APhA and things but. But I think they were kind of trying .
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
The to the system. I think when it comes to. disease of exotic disease control in the devolved nations, it is a as Kat says, it is a really difficult area because policy has devolved. But the disease doesn't. necessarily know that. And it can create mixed messaging and it can create a feeling. Perhaps, perhaps in Wales, farmers feel very glad and grateful that they are still able to test and get confirmation of disease. There are, and I mentioned it earlier, there are. implications for decisions that are made across borders on countries the other side of the border.
So with the snapping out of the R z last year. That essentially meant that Wales had to kind of become part of the R z as well. And we may be looking at a very different picture of disease in Wales because of that decision that was not made in Wales. And so there's a feeling from vets in Wales and from our members that. They are in control of some policy, but not all policy, and it is a very difficult thing to then navigate. And again, it comes down to that feeling of. multiple policy decision making that doesn't always.
So with the snapping out of the R z last year. That essentially meant that Wales had to kind of become part of the R z as well. And we may be looking at a very different picture of disease in Wales because of that decision that was not made in Wales. And so there's a feeling from vets in Wales and from our members that. They are in control of some policy, but not all policy, and it is a very difficult thing to then navigate. And again, it comes down to that feeling of. multiple policy decision making that doesn't always.
10:41
Alistair Carmichael
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Alistair Carmichael
Translate into what happens on the ground. Thank you Henry. So just flip the telescope around. We're sitting here in Westminster with 2020 hindsight, of course, looking at what happened, looking at it from the on farm perspective, you've had a situation where, as you say, it was predicted somehow or another, we didn't make that emotional connection of how bad it was going to be. It happens. It hits. So there's an element, possibly of a bit of guilt in there, just not knowing what was happening. You've got a delay where people are left, still not knowing, still not having that final element of certainty.
And in that mix, you then throw in a regulatory change, which then surely has an impact on the relationship between the vet and the the farmer. With hindsight, you're brewing the perfect storm here, aren't you? I don't know that it's necessarily a question in that, but it does kind of feel that, you know, we're seeing this as some sort of exercise in government comms in the same way that you would to say, you know, you should wear your seat belts, but it's an awful lot more involved than that.
And in that mix, you then throw in a regulatory change, which then surely has an impact on the relationship between the vet and the the farmer. With hindsight, you're brewing the perfect storm here, aren't you? I don't know that it's necessarily a question in that, but it does kind of feel that, you know, we're seeing this as some sort of exercise in government comms in the same way that you would to say, you know, you should wear your seat belts, but it's an awful lot more involved than that.
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
We've covered some of the situation challenges we faced last year around that later uptake, and it seems to be that there was a point where we did have sufficient availability of vaccine Europe that was then hit with a spike, which led to high demand over there, and vaccine was then distributed in Europe. There's a finite amount of vaccine produced each year. What's your reflection on that? What do you think we can do in. 2027 to try and ensure that we don't end up in the same situation? If Europe is .
10:42
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Hit first and all vaccine gets used there? Yeah, it's a question that a lot of us have been asking ourselves. And I think the the trouble with vaccines, in a way, is that it's such a. complex supply chain and it's a very. difficult thing to stockpile. They have short shelf life, and it's very difficult to massively increase. supply at short notice, which is what we saw this year. So by the time the extent of the outbreak was. realised and farmers and vets were sort of clamoring to get that vaccine, there were delays in being able to get that.
vaccine and having, you know, spoken to our vets and spoken to the vaccine. manufacturers and suppliers as well. A lot of what needs to happen is better. predictability of the demand for vaccine. And so that is why it is going to be so. important to push. vaccination going forward, as you know, to get vet practices and farmers to get those orders in so that those manufacturers have the confidence that they will be sold if they come to the country and that those animals have protection ahead of next season. I think that those would be my core messages on what we can do.
Yeah, and I think I think on the wider scale, I mean. In the NFU, we were we were delighted that the VMD have have started with their five year, five year vaccine strategy. I think that's that's a really good thing and positive piece of work, because I think this is one of the things, you know, kind of.
vaccine and having, you know, spoken to our vets and spoken to the vaccine. manufacturers and suppliers as well. A lot of what needs to happen is better. predictability of the demand for vaccine. And so that is why it is going to be so. important to push. vaccination going forward, as you know, to get vet practices and farmers to get those orders in so that those manufacturers have the confidence that they will be sold if they come to the country and that those animals have protection ahead of next season. I think that those would be my core messages on what we can do.
Yeah, and I think I think on the wider scale, I mean. In the NFU, we were we were delighted that the VMD have have started with their five year, five year vaccine strategy. I think that's that's a really good thing and positive piece of work, because I think this is one of the things, you know, kind of.
10:44
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
I mean, obviously I can't I'm not speaking for them, but for my perception, you know, they are trying their best to forecast what the demands will be. But every time that they start and kind of think we're going to have to have a vaccine for such and such, there is naturally that manufacturing time delay. And as soon as you get that, you know, the disease won't sit and wait for the vaccine to be ready, you know, kind of. So we're always basically going to be running behind, behind a disease front and something. And I think that's one of the things that we did with, you know, that has happened with bluetongue three.
So we were running behind the behind the vaccine line, you know, kind of behind the disease line. We also then have, of course, issues with, you know, pack sizes, you know, kind of there was lots of complaints that the pack sizes weren't right. And for those smallholders, those smaller farms, those up in the remote areas, they didn't. necessarily want to buy, you know, the large kind of what was it, 50 dose bottles, 100 hundred dose bottles. So you then have all the kind of regulatory issues and kind of and decisions about, well, do they spend the money?
It's an expensive vaccine. Do they spend the money and end up wasting it? Do we end up then having vets, you know, the ability that they can, they are the only ones who can open and distribute amongst their clients. So there's all those kind of things come into it as well. And I think that's the type of thing that we need to have in peace time. Those .
So we were running behind the behind the vaccine line, you know, kind of behind the disease line. We also then have, of course, issues with, you know, pack sizes, you know, kind of there was lots of complaints that the pack sizes weren't right. And for those smallholders, those smaller farms, those up in the remote areas, they didn't. necessarily want to buy, you know, the large kind of what was it, 50 dose bottles, 100 hundred dose bottles. So you then have all the kind of regulatory issues and kind of and decisions about, well, do they spend the money?
It's an expensive vaccine. Do they spend the money and end up wasting it? Do we end up then having vets, you know, the ability that they can, they are the only ones who can open and distribute amongst their clients. So there's all those kind of things come into it as well. And I think that's the type of thing that we need to have in peace time. Those .
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Are not very stable. And you have to have a very you have to have confidence in the cold chain and to make sure that these vaccines are still going to work. So the the risk of doing that is that you are paying for a vaccine that won't work anyway. And there were a number of vet practices who were doing vaccine brauch days where you could where smallholders could come and they would split a bottle at the practice when the cold chain was more. reliably kept. But yeah, I think certainly anecdotally from our members and vets, we heard that there was quite a bit of sort of Facebook marketplace and that kind of thing and reselling of vaccine.
Yeah. I think the VMD made the right call in issuing that notice. I mean, ultimately, from the Nfu's point of view, we've been telling farmers for a long time what is legal practice and what is not legal practice. And, you know, I don't want to see any of my members. inadvertently going into the illegal practice because of something that they feel is a practical solution to a problem. So, so yeah, I, I think it is something that we need to keep putting that message out there.
What .
Yeah. I think the VMD made the right call in issuing that notice. I mean, ultimately, from the Nfu's point of view, we've been telling farmers for a long time what is legal practice and what is not legal practice. And, you know, I don't want to see any of my members. inadvertently going into the illegal practice because of something that they feel is a practical solution to a problem. So, so yeah, I, I think it is something that we need to keep putting that message out there.
What .
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Henry Tufnell
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Henry Tufnell
You can as a farmer, what you can do and what you can't do. Thank you. And just finally, therefore, would it be your hope and. expectation going into next year that having farmers, having been through this, these difficulties this year in terms of obtaining vaccine and the impact of of the disease that the market would adjust so there would be sufficient vaccine and sufficient early uptake.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
It is a it is something that I think we will all do everything we can to ensure it becomes the case. It. A lot of the complexities we talked about about communicating risk, you know, still apply. And farmers do still have to make a judgement call on whether they accept the risks or not of. vaccinating compared to the costs of vaccinating. But I think given what has happened this year, it will be a warning that makes the messaging and the conversation actually easier for vets to have as well. You've got the heat maps, you've got what's happened this year.
We can talk about the risk in a bit more of a certain way with our. clients now. Yeah. And certainly in the NFU and amongst the farming.
We can talk about the risk in a bit more of a certain way with our. clients now. Yeah. And certainly in the NFU and amongst the farming.
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Alistair Carmichael
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Alistair Carmichael
Reticent to spend it on early vaccines. But you have to wait and see, I suppose. Yeah. Thank you, thank you. We've made the emotional connection now. So, I mean, in many ways, we've got a bigger problem than we realize. If we've not if we don't manage to get the message through next year, surely the challenge now is right back to our early comments about what else is going to come down the track. How do we learn the lessons from bluetongue to make sure that when we are talking about managing risk, that farmers actually genuinely understand the risk that they're managing , because the people who chose not to vaccinate weren't doing it out of any sense of capriciousness or whatever else, they just didn't really grasp, it would appear the full implications of the risk that they were managing in case .
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Helena Dollimore
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Helena Dollimore
Round of questions about lessons to be learned. So, Helena, you can thank you, chair. And I think you've you've kind of alluded to some of this in your earlier answers, but do you think that we should now see bluetongue as an endemic risk that has to be managed every year, rather than a sporadic thing that happens? Do .
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
And I think we are in the. situation now that they were in following their large outbreak in a way, and that, it seems, did really. motivate uptake of vaccine. And then they they're, you know, through probably a combination of. immunity from previous infection in animals that had been infected and then developed. immunity and an increase in vaccine uptake and. coverage means that they now seem to have a good level of herd and flock immunity in the country, which seems to be, you know, have had a very positive impact on disease levels there. So I think the main message to come from that is go hard on vaccine now, which is what they did, and.
hopefully we will then see .
hopefully we will then see .
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Trust really . impacted by how the summer unfolded? I, I think. ultimately farmers. Farmers trust their vets, and that's still very strong, strong, trusted partnership. I think. farmers will trust other farmers. I mean, that's certainly one of the things that is, I say in the NFU that we've done this time that we maybe haven't done as much is, is we got a lot of our messaging out through case studies. So we, as I say, it was about 6 or 7 case studies. Again, I can send you some written details of those case studies afterwards if that would help.
And each case study basically kind of led with a different policy message and policy. advice and tried to kind of show our advice to farmers through through another farmer's eyes. So I think there's, there's different ways that we can get messages out to farmers. I still don't think government relying on. gov.uk is the best way to do things. And yet I have to say, I sit on the on the government core group for bluetongue and exotic disease and the.
communications team that come in from that from Defra have been fantastic. They've embraced.
And each case study basically kind of led with a different policy message and policy. advice and tried to kind of show our advice to farmers through through another farmer's eyes. So I think there's, there's different ways that we can get messages out to farmers. I still don't think government relying on. gov.uk is the best way to do things. And yet I have to say, I sit on the on the government core group for bluetongue and exotic disease and the.
communications team that come in from that from Defra have been fantastic. They've embraced.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
You know, kind of sharing of information. They've embraced the ruminant health and welfare in the bluetongue hub. You know, they've tried to make things better, but the government website is still not. It's still quite a hard maze for genuine farmers to find their way around. So I think I think all of the things that we're doing, the.
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Helena Dollimore
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Helena Dollimore
I think if we can get that right, then I think that will probably help. Yeah. And then lastly, to throw in a question unrelated to bluetongue, but very relevant to the veterinary sector. There is a big issue in my constituency in Hastings and Rye about access to emergency vets out of hours, and people have to travel a very long distance to Eastbourne. 45 minutes by car in the night, out of hours. It's very difficult to get there if you don't have a car. The journey by public transport with a sick animal is even worse. When I discussed this last year with the VA, one of the issues that was raised was that obviously a lot of big conglomerates have taken over a lot of vet.
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Helena Dollimore
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Helena Dollimore
And then that means they have one base, which might be a lot further, and that distance that you have to travel for emergency vet cover is not defined in law. It's not defined in regulation. There's no kind of common understanding of what a reasonable distance is to travel for emergency vet cover. Is that something that you think with the upcoming reforms to the Veterinary Act? Gwen, do you see .
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
A reasonable distance to travel for emergency vet cover? Oh, so I it sounds like you're specifically talking about companion animal emergency cover in in this case. And I think that, yeah, the, the demographic and the makeup of veterinary provision and veterinary practice has changed significantly. Whether you can put a.
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Helena Dollimore
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Helena Dollimore
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Alistair Carmichael
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Alistair Carmichael
Hadn't prepared anything. Sure. Today. Thank you. It's almost like running a veterinary practice is a difficult thing to do. You knew? Well, listen, can I thank you both for your attendance and for your evidence today? It's been enormously insightful, very helpful to the committee. We are going to pause proceedings slightly briefly, while we bring in the panel for the next round of questions.
But thank you. And, you know, we would this is a matter in which I think we will remain engaged. So any developments that .
But thank you. And, you know, we would this is a matter in which I think we will remain engaged. So any developments that .
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Alistair Carmichael
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Alistair Carmichael
Think we should know about, we're in the market for hearing them. Thank you very much. Thank you. And then I see the next panel sitting at the back already. So if you want to come forward, we can effect a seamless transition. I don't think we need to suspend. Key. If everyone is seated and comfortable. Welcome to the committee.
Can I just ask you, as I did previous panel, to .
Can I just ask you, as I did previous panel, to .
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Alistair Carmichael
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Alistair Carmichael
I'm Dan Horton. I'm director of science at the Pirbright Institute. Okay. Well, thank you for your attendance and for your assistance this morning. We will doubtless come to some of this later, but I think just right at the top of the session, it's been apparent to us from the evidence that's been submitted to the committee, that all the people who work in your various organisations really put in a shift to tackle this. You know, we've heard quite remarkable stories of of people being retasked, spending all their time in the rest of it. So I think it's important that they hear from the committee that, you know, that's understood and appreciated.
And I hope that you will take our thanks back to them from the committee for that. So we're going to cover some of the same territory that we covered with the previous panel. But,
And I hope that you will take our thanks back to them from the committee for that. So we're going to cover some of the same territory that we covered with the previous panel. But,
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
To see how hard colleagues at APhA worked during this outbreak. I spent time with colleagues right across the country. It was most impactful spending time with colleagues in Devon and Exeter specifically, who were taking calls before dawn in the early dawn, summer, dawn, letters and beyond. Midnight on the same day, working seven days a week trying to respond. So I would say, first of all, the response of colleagues at ABA and Defra too, and my partner. organisations was extraordinary. But I did say twofold. I think the second way that I'd. characterise the. response is that as an.
agency and referencing the Nao report specifically, as well as an.
agency and referencing the Nao report specifically, as well as an.
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Not as a result of the bluetongue virus that we've seen explosion this summer. But before that. If I can give you a brief example of why that is and therefore how that might have impacted our response this year, in the years of 2015 to 2020. So six years inclusive, there were. 57 reports of exotic disease outbreaks in GB in the six years after that, we are getting on for .
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Not quite, but not far off. 5000 reports. And so. previously you would have a member of. APhA staff doing a day job and then being asked to pivot across to deal with an exotic disease outbreak. And when it was 57 across six years, you could do that. And the return to your day job and find there may be a small black backlog, but able to clear that in a reasonable amount of time with the explosion of work that's happened. We are seeing colleagues at APhA who are almost. exclusively pivoted now towards dealing with exotic disease outbreak, and that has hindered our ability to deal with the bluetongue virus.
cases for this year, because we are not funded at APhA to deal with outbreak, exotic disease outbreak. Back when there was a small number of cases, we would go to Treasury on an annual basis to say these rare events have happened and through our colleagues at Defra, we would get a sum of money that wouldn't cover all of our costs, but cover some of the costs . That model, or the way that we are structured now, ignores the reality of our. situation rather than faces into it. And so the restructure that we've. undertaken in the midst of, as I say before this outbreak, is there to address that.
continuum issue that we have between business as usual, which is the work that we would do in any case versus outbreak. And we are asking the same people to do those two jobs. And that's unfair over the long term period. So our Bridge to Better program, which .
cases for this year, because we are not funded at APhA to deal with outbreak, exotic disease outbreak. Back when there was a small number of cases, we would go to Treasury on an annual basis to say these rare events have happened and through our colleagues at Defra, we would get a sum of money that wouldn't cover all of our costs, but cover some of the costs . That model, or the way that we are structured now, ignores the reality of our. situation rather than faces into it. And so the restructure that we've. undertaken in the midst of, as I say before this outbreak, is there to address that.
continuum issue that we have between business as usual, which is the work that we would do in any case versus outbreak. And we are asking the same people to do those two jobs. And that's unfair over the long term period. So our Bridge to Better program, which .
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
I could see the case for it being not a notifiable disease, having a positive impact on some aspects of our work. I can see that. But that is a policy decision that definitely would need to make, and there may be trade implications on that as well, because it is notifiable. It isn't just in this country, but beyond the borders of this country, then we are still have a duty to report that into the World Organisation for Animal Health, for example. So there are there are wider. considerations than my own agency in that regard. But that would be a question for .
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Josh Newbury
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Josh Newbury
But we do have a mandate on behalf of Defra as a national reference laboratory for nine diseases. And bluetongue is one of them. So in this context, we took the lead on the diagnostic testing. So as Richard alluded to, I mean, first of all, just to acknowledge the impact of this, I'm a vet myself. And so to watch it unfold has been really difficult, not just the suffering for the animals, but the impact it's had on farmers and vets. You know, some of my friends have been out in the field. So from that context, it's been a horrible outbreak.
So but I've also seen some good things. I've seen science evidence and data used to help inform decisions. And I've seen people step up as chair , kindly gave tribute. I'd like to also give tribute to my colleagues who have been working hard and in sometimes in working in high containment. And that takes a particular set of skills and resilience. But there have been. bottlenecks in the process of testing, not just in the lab, where they explore those hopefully a bit more, but bottlenecks in the process from suspicion of disease through to confirmation. And regardless of the impact they may or may not have had on the ability to control the disease.
They as you know, they do have an impact on the farmers and vets, because I know what it's like if you've taken a sample and you're waiting for a test result and it's longer than you're expecting, then that has a negative impact emotionally. And I .
So but I've also seen some good things. I've seen science evidence and data used to help inform decisions. And I've seen people step up as chair , kindly gave tribute. I'd like to also give tribute to my colleagues who have been working hard and in sometimes in working in high containment. And that takes a particular set of skills and resilience. But there have been. bottlenecks in the process of testing, not just in the lab, where they explore those hopefully a bit more, but bottlenecks in the process from suspicion of disease through to confirmation. And regardless of the impact they may or may not have had on the ability to control the disease.
They as you know, they do have an impact on the farmers and vets, because I know what it's like if you've taken a sample and you're waiting for a test result and it's longer than you're expecting, then that has a negative impact emotionally. And I .
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Sarah Dyke
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Sarah Dyke
Completely get that. And I'm sorry that people have had to go through that. Just, just coming in on, on that. Some of the vets that I've spoken to, I'm Somerset MP and obviously Somerset, along with other areas of southwest, have been particularly badly hit with bluetongue over over the summer. But some some of the vets that I've spoken to have warned that the signs or some of the signs of bluetongue are similar to that of foot and mouth, and we've covered that in the previous session here this morning in that it's really, really difficult for farmers to tell apart.
And, you know, where there's been the most cases in the southwest. This is, I think, been particularly challenging. So how confident are you that a foot and mouth. incursion would not .
And, you know, where there's been the most cases in the southwest. This is, I think, been particularly challenging. So how confident are you that a foot and mouth. incursion would not .
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
The sort of front end of it. And I can talk a little bit about our role in that. Any chief exec, I think, would be foolish to assert absolute confidence that nothing would be missed by the processes that we've got. But I am reassured the work that our colleagues at APhA have done to differentiate between those two things. So, first of all, the testing regime that started, and of course, that's a matter for Dan and the.
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
And there are some clinical signs which are different between these two diseases. And therefore , with more practice and more cases that vets are seeing, we have seen confidence rise in being able to diagnose properly for the disease that they have. We have had experts on the end of a phone to speak to any vet that's wished to do that, to ensure that the thing that they are seeing is the thing that they think that it is. And so therefore, we are vets aren't in the field completely on their own. Alongside that, we had an online reporting system that was stood up earlier this year, and that had a number of ramps of which you would run if you started.
reporting clinical signs, which are more akin to foot and mouth. We've stress tested that system as well. One of our senior colleagues at APhA put a mock report on and. started to tick the boxes, which were more foot and mouth related in terms of the clinical signs that they were seeing. Just to check whether this system was working, he had a phone call within ten minutes from one of our vets. I'm reassured, therefore, that the systems and processes that we put in place mitigate the risk of that. But as I started my response to this question, you cannot assert complete confidence in any system.
It's important that we remain vigilant to this. And of course, if we keep simply blood sampling and testing for gluten, you are. overwhelming labs with a number of samples. That in itself produces risk for something that may be missed in amongst so many thousands of tests. So there is a balance, a tension between clinical signs reporting and blood testing. I think we struck that balance reasonably well this year, but undoubtedly there'll be lessons that we will need to learn in our learning.
The lessons exercise, the full day event that we have on. the 17th of November at APhA,
reporting clinical signs, which are more akin to foot and mouth. We've stress tested that system as well. One of our senior colleagues at APhA put a mock report on and. started to tick the boxes, which were more foot and mouth related in terms of the clinical signs that they were seeing. Just to check whether this system was working, he had a phone call within ten minutes from one of our vets. I'm reassured, therefore, that the systems and processes that we put in place mitigate the risk of that. But as I started my response to this question, you cannot assert complete confidence in any system.
It's important that we remain vigilant to this. And of course, if we keep simply blood sampling and testing for gluten, you are. overwhelming labs with a number of samples. That in itself produces risk for something that may be missed in amongst so many thousands of tests. So there is a balance, a tension between clinical signs reporting and blood testing. I think we struck that balance reasonably well this year, but undoubtedly there'll be lessons that we will need to learn in our learning.
The lessons exercise, the full day event that we have on. the 17th of November at APhA,
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Josh Newbury
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Josh Newbury
Which has a whole host of partners invited to it. I don't want to answer that. If I may just briefly add. So at the the Pirbright Institute, as you would have probably read in in the response to your your queries, we did what we call an all institute response. So everyone is suitably trained in every facility that was available was put towards the bluetongue outbreak. And to do that we have to stop some things. But the things we don't stop are statutory. responsibilities for the other notifiable diseases that we have responsibility for. So just to reassure you that there is still someone on call 24 hours a day for for foot and mouth, and they've come out in the middle of the night, if.
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Josh Newbury
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Josh Newbury
To do the testing for that. So and we can and have done notifiable disease. investigations for foot and mouth during this period. Also, ASF, African swine fever is another one that we keep. We're a national reference laboratory. And over the same period as bluetongue outbreak, we've been doing African swine fever surveillance, as we do all the time in wild boar, for example, and unexpected deaths in domestic pigs.
So from a laboratory response, we maintain that. capability for the other.
So from a laboratory response, we maintain that. capability for the other.
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Sarah Dyke
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Sarah Dyke
Notifiable whilst. weathering the storm that we have. Okay. Thank you. Richard, just coming back to you, we've heard that there's been obviously there's webinars and engagement events going on during the summer, but they were attended by about. 1000 farmers. Obviously, this season, as we know, bluetongue has confirmed over.
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
To around. 150,000 registered keepers, SMS messages to more people than that running very early this year and indeed last year, and the importance of vaccination. I think government played a significant role. And we heard some of that evidence earlier in. communicating the needs. The diversity of voices point, I think, is an important one. So we amplified the voice of things such as Battle Bluetongue, which is an industry led initiative and a very good industry led initiative. So we did a significant amount, but I don't think you can ever. overcommunicate on issues such as the risk and the importance of vaccination.
I would hope I won't rely on hope, but I would hope that the virus has done our work for us for next year. In terms of the need for vaccination. I was in a farm in Devon earlier this summer. A farmer who had.
I would hope I won't rely on hope, but I would hope that the virus has done our work for us for next year. In terms of the need for vaccination. I was in a farm in Devon earlier this summer. A farmer who had.
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Albeit late, and the other farmers in attendance at that meeting told me that some of them had already ordered the vaccines for next year. It is the year after. I think our work is going to be important as well. This is a. multi-season event that we need to be thinking of, not in terms of next summer and potentially a huge increase in vaccine uptake, which I would hope to see. But the year after, if the problem doesn't.
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Sarah Dyke
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Sarah Dyke
Or the late disease. Indeed, that's going to be absolutely sure. Yes, yes. And just just on that, and I bring Abigail in on this. There's often warnings, isn't there, that the second year of a newly. introduced strain can be more severe than the first. So how much did that. inform your workings and planning and.
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Helena Dollimore
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Helena Dollimore
In been reported in just in the last couple of days. Yeah. Thank you. I think I mean, I think this is why it's really important that we do the lessons learned that Richard was referring to. And I think the theme that you've heard already in the in the first session, and certainly I will reiterate, is the real importance of. communications and the importance of. finding the forum that their heard.
You know, we heard that farmers trust Farmers and Farmers
You know, we heard that farmers trust Farmers and Farmers
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
tionS and the importance of. finding the forum that they heard. You know, we heard that Farmers trust farmers and Farmers trust. Vets and vets trust vets and maybe gov.uk. Albeit a channel that we use. Could be. amplified through other mechanisms. And we certainly need to learn that lesson and take that back and iterate what we've done this year for future years. I'm, you know, happy to talk about our vaccine strategy, maybe in due course, but it's really dependent on the.
uptake of. vaccination as a principle. And .
uptake of. vaccination as a principle. And .
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
And with hindsight, do you think it could have been done sooner? So it's worth differentiating between two different things that were stood up since the National Disease Control Centre. So that is the. recognised way that you would deal with an outbreak such as this. And that was stood up earlier, not significantly earlier. But that is a different. Response to the virus within a page. We stood up a gold group, as you. recognised shortly after that. That was to do a slightly different thing. It was an internally focused meeting that we had as a gold group, because I recognise that as well as responding to bluetongue across the country, we had a whole host of other.
responsibilities that we needed to ensure that we kept undertaking. So whether that's TB testing, for example, or animal. byproduct inspection work. So that was a means of ensuring that whilst we were responding effectively to bluetongue, that we were also able to shift resources to deal with other things as and when required. So the National Disease Control Centre is the recognised means through which that you would run a command centre for an outbreak such as this. The gold group was a slightly different function, which is an internally focused meeting, and it is only at that point that it became clear that there are other parts of our.
agency needed the. support that they needed to keep business as usual work up and running. As I mentioned earlier, there's this tension that we have between business as .
responsibilities that we needed to ensure that we kept undertaking. So whether that's TB testing, for example, or animal. byproduct inspection work. So that was a means of ensuring that whilst we were responding effectively to bluetongue, that we were also able to shift resources to deal with other things as and when required. So the National Disease Control Centre is the recognised means through which that you would run a command centre for an outbreak such as this. The gold group was a slightly different function, which is an internally focused meeting, and it is only at that point that it became clear that there are other parts of our.
agency needed the. support that they needed to keep business as usual work up and running. As I mentioned earlier, there's this tension that we have between business as .
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Which means that the co-chairs are meeting, that goes from an amber call to a red call and confirmation of a disease, and then the system kicks in thereafter. That has worked well in previous years, when exotic disease has been rare. It's now business as usual for us and it is continuous. And so standing up and standing down the deck is something which I think requires further thought. I've discussed that with the CVO. She's in agreement that that is something that we should probably .
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Farmers and. professional veterinary professionals? It can always be better. And so I dare say there are aspects of the way we communicated that we've already touched upon and the way that we move from blood sampling and testing to clinical signs that we definitely could have improved upon. I am pleased to say that the gold group that we had internally had representatives not just from Defra, but the Scottish CVO and the Welsh CVO.
So we ensured that A, B, A J and through Defra as well, that there was a GB wide response to this. But .
So we ensured that A, B, A J and through Defra as well, that there was a GB wide response to this. But .
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Henry Tufnell
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Henry Tufnell
Thanks. Henry, do you want to start the question? Thank you. Chair, just with Abbey. I mean, I think you told us in in June, in terms of the role that the VMD to provide. manufacturers and distributors with sort of clear. timely information on expected demand. So the vaccine supply could be the match, the need. But given the.
shortages .
shortages .
11:20
11:20
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Went wrong? So the work with the. manufacturers to get the vaccine authorised within GB for for. bluetongue happened over a over a number of years. And we did that through a number of different mechanisms. Firstly with the schedule for release for the emergency use back in. 2024 and then in. 2025 with the provisional .
11:21
11:21
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
For the three products. Manufacturers, as we heard, will provide stocks. But these stocks, they don't want to waste them. And so if there is not enough uptake, they will remove those stocks from a GB marketplace and place them elsewhere. So I think that what they're trying to do is match supply to demand. And it's the theme that will come out in the vaccine strategy is a really important element that we face into what's happened this summer is that there was insufficient demand for stocks to be maintained within GB to be able to then respond in July.
11:21
11:21
11:21
11:21
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Which is to bring in products from the EU. And I was really pleased with the response that my team has had and similarly to to Rich and others saying, you know, we really did a tremendous effort over the course of the summer. And we brought in over 4 million, nearly 5 million doses were brought in in a very short period of time. Once the extent of the demand was realised. And then working with those. manufacturers to say, here's the demand that we now have, how can we ensure that supply can meet, that? We know that there'll be another.
5 to 6 million doses brought in between a couple of months ago and and April, so that we have that sufficient supply now going forward. Again, it's it's a it was a live lessons learned that really feeds into the vaccine strategy work that we've been looking at anyway and really. highlighted the. importance of that active.
5 to 6 million doses brought in between a couple of months ago and and April, so that we have that sufficient supply now going forward. Again, it's it's a it was a live lessons learned that really feeds into the vaccine strategy work that we've been looking at anyway and really. highlighted the. importance of that active.
11:22
11:22
11:22
11:22
11:22
11:22
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
The communication that you've got with manufacturers? I mean, it's it's one of the the four pillars of the vaccine strategy. And it's a really, really important one. And I think this experience with bluetongue has been has been a good live example to test some of the ways in which we can communicate. I mean, what we've been doing over the course of the summer is having one to ones with the. manufacturers and weekly check ins on that forecast between demand and supply. I think what we want to get to is a model where we don't have to be quite so.
reactive in in an emergency where we can actually forecast what the demand is going to be in advance of these. vaccinations can be done over the course of the year in advance of there being a problem. So it's tested some of those communication channels which have been stood up really quickly and have worked really well, but I would anticipate not needing to.
reactive in in an emergency where we can actually forecast what the demand is going to be in advance of these. vaccinations can be done over the course of the year in advance of there being a problem. So it's tested some of those communication channels which have been stood up really quickly and have worked really well, but I would anticipate not needing to.
11:23
11:23
11:23
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
What impact did that have on your supply constraint? I mean, that was that was due to, obviously, manufacturers wanting to make sure there was a limited wastage of their products. You know, they do have a shelf life they would have to consider. And, and the demand within GB at that time, of course, if we see a. continuation of demand that is not. quantifiable from, from from GB farmers and vets, then of course that could be a risk. And that's what we want to try and avoid by making sure that we can have a better. communication channel to .
11:24
Henry Tufnell
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Henry Tufnell
11:24
11:24
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Or clear as maybe you would have wanted or needed it to be. So in, in normal times, outside of the outbreak, we wouldn't be having a. communication with manufacturers about what we anticipate demand to be. That's not something that routinely happens, but it's part of what the strategy looks at for going forward so that we .
11:25
11:25
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Costs, extra work for distribution. Yeah. How are you addressing that. So when it comes to the pack sizes, the priority in August and September is to make sure there was some stock coming back in. And we acknowledge that that means that you don't get all of the pack sizes. That may be useful. But what we were able to do in a pragmatic way and mitigate that was advise vets that they could. administer the vaccines to animals belonging to different owners once they had broached a single bottle, and if necessary, in exceptional circumstances, the vet could decant some of that product into a smaller vessel for for a specific use, if that needed to be the case.
And that's the pragmatic way we deal with a shortage of a particular pack size. Pack size shortages are quite a quite common. Again, it's led by the demand from to the to the.
And that's the pragmatic way we deal with a shortage of a particular pack size. Pack size shortages are quite a quite common. Again, it's led by the demand from to the to the.
11:26
11:26
11:26
11:26
Alistair Carmichael
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Alistair Carmichael
Communicate what we expect to be needed. It does seem to come back to the initial communication, the failure to get the message across of the severity of what was going to hit meant that by the time you got to July really scrabbling around for vaccines, then it was too late. And what would have been a great response time in March, April needed to be .
11:26
11:26
Alistair Carmichael
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Alistair Carmichael
Fast come July. Is that fair comment? Yeah, absolutely . Right. I'm going to move on to the question of testing capacity. But this will have actually just before I do though, on the availability of of information on this personal experience here, I was desperate to find out having vaccinated last year because of our proximity to Northern Ireland and my farming enterprise, whether or not I needed to vaccinate again this year. Now, as you heard earlier, I'm not sure of veterinary advice. All the answer I got all the time was the data sheets are silent on this.
Is that routine or is that something that was .
Is that routine or is that something that was .
11:27
11:27
11:27
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Jumping a bit here. Is it? No, no, no. Okay. So I think in terms of vaccination, vaccination schedules and vaccination policy, that's a different aspect rather than vaccine, which would be with the VMD. But if there's if there is additional information that is. required in order to help communicate the message, I think this is what we need to understand. And it's been really helpful, actually, to hear from the from the panel, from the first session about what has landed.
Well, as the message and what more is .
Well, as the message and what more is .
11:28
11:28
11:28
11:28
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
That's just another chip out. The I think, I think as well, the products that we currently have available are under the provisional marketing authorisation route, which means that there are elements that the the manufacturers still need to generate the data in order to make them full marketing authorisations, at which point all of the .
11:28
11:29
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
You likely you're not going to let the best be the enemy of the good. Well, indeed. But we need to make sure that what we publish in terms of. information are known scientific facts. And of course, what we're not trying to do is say we need to. Exactly as you've said, we won't wait. That's the idea of having the provisional marketing authorisation when we know there is a need for the product and we can be assured of the safety. And yet there'll be further developments in terms of the data package that are required to make it a full marketing authorisation.
11:29
Alistair Carmichael
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Alistair Carmichael
We won't wait for that. When we have such a situation that we need to address. Yeah, I mean, I just wonder it feels like even when you're looking at the availability of pack sizes, you know, it feels like you've got a system here that's designed for the benefit of the manufacturers and the producers rather than the .
11:29
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
End users. Is that am I being unkind there? I think you've got what we've got is a system which is led by the. manufacturers in terms of what they want to. market and what they will bring to us for us to . license we. But that, again, has been really helpful in the work that we've been doing with the vaccine. strategy is to understand from those sectors what their needs are, and to open those communication channels between the species sectors and the.
manufacturers so that the the. requirements are better understood, which of course .
manufacturers so that the the. requirements are better understood, which of course .
11:30
Alistair Carmichael
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Alistair Carmichael
Would then ensure the sales that the manufacturers need. Okay. I'm going to move on to some questions around testing capacity. So I guess to Dan and Richard yourselves, I mean, your your organisation really did step up to the plate, but you've all acknowledged that there were bottlenecks within the system. What do you feel these bottlenecks were and what do we need to do to eliminate them between .
11:31
11:31
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Perhaps I can come across to the hospital. Plus, thank you. Thank you very much, Rich. Thanks, chair. So just to, I guess, reiterate the scale. So 10th of July first case and then the the submissions to our laboratory were in the region of 100 a week for the next two weeks, and then the last week in July went up fourfold. So we're getting. 150 a day. And that's when we instigated our whole institute response. As I've told you about five times, the number of staff, staff working overtime and weekends, etc. and thank you very much to them.
The consequence of that. So our normal we'd normally endeavour to to do tests, certainly the first 1 in 20.
The consequence of that. So our normal we'd normally endeavour to to do tests, certainly the first 1 in 20.
11:32
11:32
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Our sort of standard test turnaround time is five days. And right that beginning of August, it became apparent that that was going to be a struggle. And I'll give the reasons for reasons why in a minute. So we told Defra, the main customer, that we were more likely to meet a. 10 to 12 day turnaround time on those. So that's the and the overwhelming. majority were within that period in the laboratory. And by the end of August, we actually cleared our backlog and the bottlenecks went elsewhere, which we can maybe explore in a minute the reasons for the bottlenecks, which is the important bit, I guess, and why we need to think about lessons learned.
So one of them is that we've heard that private vets were able to sample for bluetongue. This is was. implemented end of last year for good reasons. But what that meant is that rather than having one submission with lots of.
So one of them is that we've heard that private vets were able to sample for bluetongue. This is was. implemented end of last year for good reasons. But what that meant is that rather than having one submission with lots of.
11:32
11:32
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
We had lots of. individual submissions. So, you know, crates full of jiffy bags, all with three samples in all with individual submission forms. And we estimated that 40% of those submission forms lacked information that we needed to be able to test and then report them to APhA. And again, that's nobody's fault. I've been there, you know, filling out long. forms in the dark, in the rain is not easy.
Well, there wasn't much rain, but in the dark. So that's one of the reasons. It was just a simple .
Well, there wasn't much rain, but in the dark. So that's one of the reasons. It was just a simple .
11:33
11:33
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Of changing the regulations. Mid-campaign isn't it really possibly an unintended consequence of what was a good decision? I think in the autumn, the other the other thing we did was to. prioritise submissions from Pre-movement testing. So these are the ones where the information can be really useful for disease control, because we obviously can't do anything about the midges moving locally. They can travel up to three kilometres and much further in blown wind, but we can help stop people moving infected animals across borders. So we would. prioritise those submissions and we'd aim to do those within three days.
But prioritising those meant that it added to the bottleneck. And then the last thing is just the ramp up time. So we we didn't actually exceed our stated testing capacity. So at full ramp up we can do 10,000 tests a week. But that's individual PCR tests. We didn't actually get to that because of this. The bottlenecks at the beginning with all these all these submissions coming in.
But prioritising those meant that it added to the bottleneck. And then the last thing is just the ramp up time. So we we didn't actually exceed our stated testing capacity. So at full ramp up we can do 10,000 tests a week. But that's individual PCR tests. We didn't actually get to that because of this. The bottlenecks at the beginning with all these all these submissions coming in.
11:34
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11:35
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
A report from a farm into the team. And they're thereafter, as I say, highly skilled individuals spending all of their time, nearly all of their time on administrative tasks. So checking various. databases and spreadsheets to make sure the information they received was correct, the certificate they provide in order to confirm diseases is one of the most important tasks they will undertake. So the information contained therein is very important. The fact that they have to check across several.
11:35
11:35
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Excuse me, slows them down significantly. And so the bottleneck that we had was not enough capacity of. veterinary surgeons within that team to confirm disease. It is usually the case that the CVO will confirm disease, of course, but on the scale such as this, it is unrealistic. And so the CVO devolves. Defra, for at least the scale perhaps is slightly different in the other countries. Of course, the CVO will delegate that responsibility to vets in the vendor team. So the bottleneck that we have there are the number of cases that are coming in in a very short period of time, versus the number of experts we have in that team.
As I say, the. transformation work that we have underway is on digitising end to end disease management. Yeah, it is a paper based system. So if I can give you a small example, when an exotic notifiable disease case comes in, a vet in a field will will fill out on paper a 40 page form. All the information is relevant, lots of free text boxes. They will then return to the hotel room that they are staying in or at home. If they are lucky, type up that form and then submit it to the vendor team who do a whole host of other amount of work.
Now, if you.
As I say, the. transformation work that we have underway is on digitising end to end disease management. Yeah, it is a paper based system. So if I can give you a small example, when an exotic notifiable disease case comes in, a vet in a field will will fill out on paper a 40 page form. All the information is relevant, lots of free text boxes. They will then return to the hotel room that they are staying in or at home. If they are lucky, type up that form and then submit it to the vendor team who do a whole host of other amount of work.
Now, if you.
11:36
11:36
11:36
11:36
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
You are into tens, if not hundreds of thousands of pieces of paper that are vets are having to manage digitising. That is something which has been a priority for some time. I'm delighted to say that later this month we will. test an online digital system for AI season, which means that the. problem on this particular issue was .
11:37
11:37
11:37
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11:37
Alistair Carmichael
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Alistair Carmichael
Another step in the onward march of artificial intelligence. Absolutely, yes. Okay. You've not mentioned one aspect of this that was actually raised in a meeting in this building recently, one of the all party groups on farming, and that's the classification of bluetongue A as a Sapo three a, a group, whatever the full term, a m term is. Now, because it's Sapo three, the testing samples go to you, Dan. And I think, did I hear from the earlier session there was a possibility of using more done and possibly somebody else in in Wales as well. But that sounds like a bottleneck in itself.
If it were Sapo two, there would be a wider range of facilities that could do the testing. So I think the question is, is it necessary to have BTV three as a sample .
If it were Sapo two, there would be a wider range of facilities that could do the testing. So I think the question is, is it necessary to have BTV three as a sample .
11:38
11:39
11:39
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
You're doing the the the sharp pain work here. I can I can as Rich says, the decision, whether it's. So it's named on the specified animal pathogens order under the Animal Health Act, which for reasons of the nature of the virus and the threat that it may pose. So yeah, whether it's on that is would be a policy and then legal change. So I won't cover that.
11:39
11:39
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
But just in terms of the impact that has on our ability to use other labs, I think that's a really important thing that I'd like to discuss and present some evidence to you. So it's that is one thing. That is one aspect of it, the. biosafety aspect, and there are any laboratory that wanted to test would need to do it within a, a facility that was licensed by the Health and Safety Executive to, to do that. And then there's various transport. regulations that HHS also regulate. There are, however, others. So there's security. So bluetongue is on schedule five of the.
Anti-Terrorism Crime Act, which means that there are. additional appropriate security measures, I believe is the term that need to be.
Anti-Terrorism Crime Act, which means that there are. additional appropriate security measures, I believe is the term that need to be.
11:40
11:40
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Which are at the discretion of a local. counter-terrorism security adviser. So and then possibly one of the most intensive is the quality assurance process. So and there are good reasons these are in place because when it's the first case of rabies or foot and mouth, or when we have to tell the chief veterinary officer that there's a case, we have to be very sure that we're right. And the consequence of that is a very thorough quality assurance process. So we're accredited to international standards by the UK Accreditation Service. So any laboratory that would want to take this on would need to do the.
11:40
11:40
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Quality assurance. And then there's the logistics and data management. Richard has alluded to this, but we're at the moment, it's very important that Pirbright becomes part of the Bridge to Better program, and we're working really closely with them on that because our computer systems need to talk to APhA and that comes it's difficult enough when you've got publicly funded institutes that are trying to talk to each other. But when you're dealing with private.
11:41
11:41
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Which have different that have different computer systems. So I'm not complaining. This is just the way it is. And so we've been. discussing through the there's a group called the Disease Emergency Response Committee. It's APhA chaired, but it involves Defra and other Antifolates. Can we try and facilitate other labs becoming official laboratories so they'd need to be designated. Still, there are two that are for bluetongue. Get to the answer to your question. It's not my news to share if that's okay, which two they are. But we should be finding out. And we we have. And they may well be happy to share that.
And we can follow up in writing if that's okay. But it would help with regionalisation. We are working really closely with them and have been for some time to help bring them up to the standard. As a national lab, we still have a mandate to oversee that. So it's not resource negative for government because we have to help them basically and oversee them. And then the final thing, just.
And we can follow up in writing if that's okay. But it would help with regionalisation. We are working really closely with them and have been for some time to help bring them up to the standard. As a national lab, we still have a mandate to oversee that. So it's not resource negative for government because we have to help them basically and oversee them. And then the final thing, just.
11:42
11:42
11:42
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
It's not financially viable to do it. So yeah, in addition to that, I think the. symbiotic nature of the relationship between our labs is important. We are not the reference lab for bluetongue, as you've heard today, but we stood up our own. capability to ensure that we were able to help her bright. I know they would do the same for us in reverse, should it ever occur. When it comes to the regional labs as well.
11:42
11:42
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
When we're having. conversations during the peak of an outbreak, when we talk to them about, well, how many people may might you be able to dedicate to this work? The answer sometimes is 2 to 3 people. Not all of them are on bluetongue, but we have a thousand. scientists working at APhA, a significant number of Pirbright. And so we do scale particularly well. I think the time for the conversation with smaller labs who may wish to add to the national effort is after the outbreak.
Now, when we can spend more time devoting that because .
Now, when we can spend more time devoting that because .
11:43
11:43
11:43
11:43
Alistair Carmichael
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Alistair Carmichael
Reclassification, but I accept there will be policy implications that perhaps I don't understand. Yeah. Look, I mean, what I'm hearing is lots of process arguments, which is reasonable. You know, we have processes for a reason. It's not irrational. But if you flip your telescope around again and look at outcomes, you've got farmers on farms waiting for results. So I'm not hearing you telling me. Dear God, no, man, that would be a disastrous thing to go from 3 to 2.
11:44
11:44
11:44
11:44
11:44
Alistair Carmichael
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Alistair Carmichael
The case, was the question specifically on the amount of money they spend on testing? Well, you see, this is the problem when you rely on FOI, governments tell you as little as they possibly can. And it wasn't actually the committee that that that made the request, because we don't need to rely on FOI. We ask our information and they tell us. But it does seem to be quite a chunky figure. We'll. We will pursue that, I think. And then just finally. You know, we we've been warned that a greater reliance on clinical confirmation in areas without a high bluetongue virus prevalence carries risks.
So, Dan Richard, how do you characterize these .
So, Dan Richard, how do you characterize these .
11:45
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Risks and how significant are they? Well, there are certainly risks there in clinical confirmation. It may be that you're confirming something which it isn't, of course, or a different serotype to the one that you think that it is missing mild cases, which may be atypical in nature. So there are clear risks that we are aware of of clinical. confirmation as opposed to lab testing. But as I mentioned earlier. overwhelmingly lab with so many samples also carries its risks as well. So there needs to be a balance between. understanding the nature of an outbreak in a localized area and what additional sampling provides in terms of information that you may need.
So that balance is one, which is one which is managed live on a regular basis. There's a number of things that you can do to mitigate that risk. I think you can undertake targeted testing. Any doubts at all you report. And that's something that we saw over the course of the summer. I hope I've reassured the committee that we did our own stress testing of the system to make sure that that was the case, and perhaps triggers for retesting, if that's an issue as well. I'm not sure if Dan has anything to add, but it does free up your resource in order to report on clinical signs.
When there is so .
So that balance is one, which is one which is managed live on a regular basis. There's a number of things that you can do to mitigate that risk. I think you can undertake targeted testing. Any doubts at all you report. And that's something that we saw over the course of the summer. I hope I've reassured the committee that we did our own stress testing of the system to make sure that that was the case, and perhaps triggers for retesting, if that's an issue as well. I'm not sure if Dan has anything to add, but it does free up your resource in order to report on clinical signs.
When there is so .
11:46
11:46
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
About the spread. Dan, do you have anything to add to that? No, only to, you know, no vet wants to be the one that misses foot and mouth. And I think that, you know, risk aversion we've heard a bit about that with, you know, decisions about vaccination risk aversion and risk appetite. The two different things play into that. So but on but on the face of it, for bluetongue, certainly one, I think one of the. It's been a good thing. It was welcomed by the Institute, this decision to move to clinical diagnosis. You know, in the simple situation where you've got a farm next to a farm which has already got bluetongue confirmed and you've got bluetongue signs and no signs of any other notifiable disease, then you can see it would be a clear decision.
And I'm.
And I'm.
11:47
11:47
11:47
11:48
Josh Newbury
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Josh Newbury
Resilience to animal diseases. So, Josh, I'll ask you for leaders here. Thank you. Chair, I'm going to start, if I may, with quite a broad question, which is probably directed at all three of you. Do you think that bluetongue could ever be eradicated in this country, or is this a threat that we're going to .
11:48
11:48
11:48
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Possible and that we have a vaccine. You know, it's a vector borne diseases. So such as blue tongue are notoriously difficult to control. But we do have a vaccine for this. It's also a because it's a vector borne disease. There's a so-called vector period. It's usually starts now in late December. And so there's a theoretical period where we don't have circulation. So we we should in theory be able to get ahead of it. We've got proof of principle with BTV eight. So the. 2007 outbreak that we were able to control, and there's good evidence from Europe, near neighbours in Europe, where comprehensive vaccination.
campaigns have at least significantly reduced the impact of it practically. It's going to be quite a challenge for all the reasons I think that we've, you know, touched on today. And so but the decision on whether it becomes endemic or not is, as we've heard, is a sort of policy decision, really, but it it is a disease that we will it's not over for us already, put it that way. Our submissions are still twice what they would be.
We're dealing with germplasm. So for breeding, testing and we're preparing for winter surveillance.
campaigns have at least significantly reduced the impact of it practically. It's going to be quite a challenge for all the reasons I think that we've, you know, touched on today. And so but the decision on whether it becomes endemic or not is, as we've heard, is a sort of policy decision, really, but it it is a disease that we will it's not over for us already, put it that way. Our submissions are still twice what they would be.
We're dealing with germplasm. So for breeding, testing and we're preparing for winter surveillance.
11:49
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
So we're not resting on our laurels at all. I so for the comments that Dan has made and we've seen in Europe, as he's mentioned, that a comprehensive vaccine programme does manage the disease, there is a difference, of course, between the detection of the disease in this country and the fact that the disease may be just circulating without our knowledge. We only know what we know, and we would encourage farmers, therefore, to keep reporting. It is.
notifiable and it provides us with the .
notifiable and it provides us with the .
11:49
11:50
Josh Newbury
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Josh Newbury
Yeah, very well said by both of my panel members there. So if we if we fast forward then to 12 months time, how do you hope if we have another outbreak next year, how do you hope that we will have responded better? What lessons have we learned from this year that we can apply within the next 12 months to .
11:50
11:50
11:50
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
As we've heard already, is the route out of the number of cases that we've seen this year. In terms of lessons, by next year, I think we would make an error at APhA if we focus on simply preparing for another serotype or the same serotype. I think the lesson that we need to learn more than anything is the ability to respond at scale and quickly. And that's that's disease agnostic. It can be anything. And so it is surging at short notice, large numbers of people in order to respond to a thing, whatever that thing may be.
Disease X. So that's the major lesson for us. The flex of resource as quickly as possible to deal with whatever the threat is. There are other lessons in terms of communication that we've mentioned earlier in the day, but that would be the key takeaway for me. And as I mentioned, on.
Disease X. So that's the major lesson for us. The flex of resource as quickly as possible to deal with whatever the threat is. There are other lessons in terms of communication that we've mentioned earlier in the day, but that would be the key takeaway for me. And as I mentioned, on.
11:51
11:51
11:51
11:51
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
This big meeting, you know, could you give us an insight into what's on the agenda at least? Absolutely, yes. So Defra also held two internal reviews already. If it has done anything, it has. reinforced the need to invest in Bridge to Better, which is our transformation program. Nobody would have wished to go through what we did this summer, but it has done anything for us. It has further strengthened the case for the transformation of the.
11:52
11:52
11:52
Josh Newbury
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Josh Newbury
The threats of today as opposed to the threats of yesterday. And just to kind of expand on this, you mentioned there, Richard, that a lot of the work has got to not just be through the lens of BTV three, but we've got to kind of look more broadly at how we can boost our resilience across the board, because we don't know what will face us next year if a new strain emerged or you were facing, you know, an outbreak that looked very different in terms of perhaps how it's spread, perhaps it's kind of.
11:52
11:52
11:53
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Would you kind of. prioritize to, to respond to something a bit different? It would be dependent on what happens next summer. That doesn't answer your question. I think what I would do. generically is perhaps work with policy colleagues to make sure the decision to move from testing to clinical signs happens at an appropriate time that may be earlier in the season than it happened this year, but it would be dependent on what we face next year. Of course, that would mean that our vets are freed up to undertake other important work, but also respond to bluetongue as well.
That Pirbright may not be receiving the number of samples that they did this summer, and therefore, the speed of both of our agencies in terms of providing. responses is quicker. So I probably limit myself to that specifically because we're not sure what we're facing next year. We have epidemiologists working on this already. Of course, what we could not have predicted this year, the vector didn't change, the animal didn't change. But what did change was the climate around now, whether heat stress and other things.
That Pirbright may not be receiving the number of samples that they did this summer, and therefore, the speed of both of our agencies in terms of providing. responses is quicker. So I probably limit myself to that specifically because we're not sure what we're facing next year. We have epidemiologists working on this already. Of course, what we could not have predicted this year, the vector didn't change, the animal didn't change. But what did change was the climate around now, whether heat stress and other things.
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11:54
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Laboratory is is an official laboratory for bluetongue. So it's already, although it's another it is a government agency. It's already the example of using another laboratory. And it worked really well this this year. And I think we do that more and quicker with the consent of APhA, of course. But we also had APhA staff came to work particularly to deal with this bottleneck bit at the beginning, because they're very experienced at dealing with the. submissions that work really well. So we do I think we do more of that. And the other just general point I'd like to make, I suppose, is that the only thing I can just about guarantee is that the challenge of the next outbreak, whether it be bluetongue or another, will be different.
And that's the thing. These diseases, avian.
And that's the thing. These diseases, avian.
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
And at the sort of the level we're at, these are they're almost as different as as they could be in the ways that we need to approach them. So I think there is no one solution to that. But there's two things that help. One of them is having a cadre of scientists and people interested in this. So investment broadly in UK science, you know, we're 1% of the world's population, but still, I think published 12% of the most highly cited papers. You know, this is the reason why we're an. international reference laboratory for many diseases.
So investing in that, I think, is key. And the international focus. So these are global problems. You know, the foot and mouth situations that we referenced earlier, they're unprecedented. The strains of foot mouth that are emerging. And so.
So investing in that, I think, is key. And the international focus. So these are global problems. You know, the foot and mouth situations that we referenced earlier, they're unprecedented. The strains of foot mouth that are emerging. And so.
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11:56
Josh Newbury
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Josh Newbury
For our ability to do our job as a national lab. And can I just press you on one point, which is. concurrent outbreaks? This is something that we picked up in our first report as a committee. And I think the National Audit Office referenced it in theirs as well. How different would the situation be if, for example, we have a similar outbreak of bluetongue next year and then we're dealing with another outbreak down? Earlier, you mentioned African swine fever. We've seen for a mouth in Germany, if we were having to deal with two through this process of lesson learned, are you kind of wargaming what that would look like and how we might be able to manage the.
11:57
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Complexity of multiple disease outbreaks at any given time, but we are dealing with that currently. So over the course of the summer, of course. bluetongue Asian or long yellow legged hornets, as they're called , plant diseases. So across a whole host of areas, we are dealing with multiple threats. As you mentioned earlier, first appeared in Africa in the 1960s. We are seeing.
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11:57
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Viruses moving their way slowly north towards the UK. And so the bridge to Better plan, which I've mentioned several times already, is partly designed to ensure that we are able to deal with multiple outbreaks at once. Foot and mouth, in the scale of. 2001 would provide a challenge to any government, of course, and we hope never to return .
11:57
Josh Newbury
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Josh Newbury
To a crisis such as that. But preparing for it is going to be vital. Okay, I'll just move on then to kind of wider points around resilience. Richard, you know, you mentioned that the APhA is in this kind of kind of continuous response mode to exotic diseases. What kind of impact has that had on the. organization's capability.
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11:58
Josh Newbury
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Josh Newbury
You've mentioned British Tibet. You know, you kind of referenced that in your letter. We know that you're looking at things like. balancing outbreak response with your business as usual with reducing reliance on what you called. unsustainable surge capacity, boosting the overall resilience of the organization, learning lessons from other countries. That's a lot of work. And so how do you kind of balance that alongside everything else you're doing? And, you know, you've kind of referenced the need for greater resource to be put behind that.
What kind of does that look like? What would you .
What kind of does that look like? What would you .
11:58
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Like to see in the months ahead to put you in a stronger position? Absolutely. I will talk with the impact on colleagues in APhA, but before I do so, in the preface, my comments by saying and recognizing the impact this has had on our farming communities. I know Dan made those comments earlier too. I was on a farm in Devon earlier this summer, and the farmer told me he dreaded getting on his quad bike in the morning and what he would find in the fields. So the main impact of this is on our farming communities.
I do want to make that community. However, we have seen in the internal questionnaires that we do that the. impact that dealing with multiple outbreaks all at once has on our colleagues at APhA is profound because we are asking them to undertake two jobs, the job that they're paid to do, and then outbreak as well. And there are many hundreds of people dealing with outbreak at any one point. The bridge to Better program we've put together.
So when I was appointed in in June of.
I do want to make that community. However, we have seen in the internal questionnaires that we do that the. impact that dealing with multiple outbreaks all at once has on our colleagues at APhA is profound because we are asking them to undertake two jobs, the job that they're paid to do, and then outbreak as well. And there are many hundreds of people dealing with outbreak at any one point. The bridge to Better program we've put together.
So when I was appointed in in June of.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
I undertook 100 days of listening before taking any strategic decisions about the future of APhA. The one issue that people kept coming back to was this outbreak versus business as usual issue. So the bridge to better program, as I say, has been set up to resolve that very issue. And work is well underway in terms of what we need over the months to come. I already have a cast iron commitment from policy colleagues at Defra that they are supporting the. transformation that we have. There is a pressure across government when it comes to money, of course, but this is the transformation programme, of course, will drive.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
But the point is to make sure that we provide a better service to our farming. communities and that we ensure the resilience of our colleagues as well. So over the months to come, it is just the continued support that I've had from Defra. towards the programme. As I say, the. digitalisation for AI season, which has already started, but we're getting there in terms of November for the digital.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
The continued support to make sure that we move beyond what some would consider a minimal viable product to something which is truly transformational for the agency. So the focus of the course of the winter will be that putting technology in the hands of our vets in the fields and beyond that, setting up permanent capabilities. The vendor team that I mentioned earlier, for example, on paper, they are nine five Monday to Friday. They work seven days a week on rotas, and we need to recognise as an agency as well that we need to structure ourselves for a seven day a week approach, not people doing so at weekends, on call or through.
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Josh Newbury
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Josh Newbury
Structured in that way so that we can deal seven days a week with the problems that we face. Well, I think you're right to say that public finances are stretched, but I think we as a committee certainly agree with you that making that investment would be potentially saving a lot down the line, particularly, as you said, for our farming communities. I think we'd be with you on that. But you've touched on their kind of issues around. workforce staff wellbeing. We know that in some key roles, you've kind of got a vacancy rate sitting somewhere around 20%.
So it's clearly not just an issue purely of resource, but also being able to recruit the right people. And we've kind of heard that across the board. If you look at vets, for example, there's a shortage in pretty much every sector and attracting them into government is is difficult. We spoke to your predecessor when we visited last year about that, and we kind of heard some of the plans that were in place to try and begin to address that. But .
So it's clearly not just an issue purely of resource, but also being able to recruit the right people. And we've kind of heard that across the board. If you look at vets, for example, there's a shortage in pretty much every sector and attracting them into government is is difficult. We spoke to your predecessor when we visited last year about that, and we kind of heard some of the plans that were in place to try and begin to address that. But .
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
What progress have you made and what challenges are kind of still remaining there? Significant progress. So you were correct. We had vacancy rates for vets, which were running at 20%. We've recently won a Civil Service Commissioners Award for the work that we've done to attract vets at APhA. The vacancy rate is now down to a manageable 6%. It will never be at zero because people transition in and out of organisations, of course, but I must commend the work of colleagues at APhA and Defra that have brought that figure down to something, which means that the.
vacancies across the country in all three nations of GB that we. administer and serve is much lower than it was. There remains an issue of vets being employed in more rural areas and and remote areas of the .
vacancies across the country in all three nations of GB that we. administer and serve is much lower than it was. There remains an issue of vets being employed in more rural areas and and remote areas of the .
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Josh Newbury
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Josh Newbury
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Inform future vaccine policy? I think your question. Vaccine trial actually. Yeah. So the vaccine trial, it's commercially sensitive at the moment, but the challenge phase is now completed at a bar. So the vaccine has been. provided to animals at APhA over the course of the summer. Those results are currently being analyzed. I don't have the results of them at this stage, and as I say, they are still commercially sensitive because of the role of pharmaceutical companies in that work as well. But so far the results seem promising. But as soon as I have more information that I'm .
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Josh Newbury
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Josh Newbury
I'm more than happy to write back to the committee with those findings. Okay. We'd really appreciate that. Thank you. And then just lastly, can I ask about Qimonda? It's been mentioned quite a few times this morning. We know that we've had a case in Jersey, which is the APhA is responsible for this last month, rather, we had a human fatality in France as well, which is really concerning. A lot of the diseases that we're talking about don't affect humans, but it seems like this one could, and it is. What are the chances of a significant outbreak in this country next season?
Is this something that is a point of concern? Is it one of the ones that we should be less worried about?
Is this something that is a point of concern? Is it one of the ones that we should be less worried about?
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
And if so, what's the response going to be to that? Well. epidemiologists are working this as we speak at APhA to make sure that we have a good. understanding of the scale of what happens. We've had two detections, as you've mentioned in mainland GB already. We are offering free sampling to make sure that we get a better understanding of the scale of the problem that we face is far too early to say at the moment. I did meet with my counterpart at UK HSA yesterday. The risk to humans is very low, but of course this is an emerging .
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Picture and this is something that we will see over the months to come, I'm sure. Okay. And just to add on that, I mean, there isn't obviously a vaccine or antivirals, but if there if if. manufacturers take up that that challenge, then of course, what we have learned through the work we've been doing on bluetongue over the years is how we can rapidly assess and bring an emergency product to the market, and then a provisional product, then the end point being a full .
12:05
Josh Newbury
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Josh Newbury
Marketing authorisation over the course of time. So that's been well tested now through the bluetongue. Do you know, given that there's been cases in mainland Europe, if that is being looked at in those countries, this is something that, you know, markets overseas are keen to see products coming to market in time for next year.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Is that too ambitious to think that it would be there for next year? I wouldn't be able to say, I'm afraid. But I think that when we're facing into something that is deemed to be so serious that we need to have an emergency response to it, then the understanding of producing something. rapidly is well understood. However, of course. manufacturing and and the creation of a of a vaccine is very. complicated and will take time.
And that's the understanding we have to have with any disease response is that .
And that's the understanding we have to have with any disease response is that .
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Helena Dollimore
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Helena Dollimore
I'm aware of some researchers who believe that with climate change, the risk of mosquito borne diseases in this country, both to humans and animals, increases because we have different kinds of mosquitoes coming into the country who can spread different diseases. I'm a South Coast MP, so I'm acutely aware of this and that we will be perhaps hit first. Indeed, I think they've found on the Romney Marsh. mosquitoes that can carry diseases like dengue fever already.
Is that something you think the sector is set up .
Is that something you think the sector is set up .
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
For, Richard? Is that something you're engaged in planning on? We plan for any emerging risks that may be approaching GB, and as I mentioned earlier, the number of risks we face have moved steadily north over the years to come and are not just at our borders now, but actively in the country. So the. surveillance we do with international colleagues as well, and understanding what threats they're facing, does ensure that we are better prepared for the threats that we face in the future, specifically on mosquitoes. I'm very aware that I have a veteran scientist out to my left who would provide a more cogent response than I will, but I can respond in writing and any work that we're doing at APG.
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Specifically on mosquito borne viruses. But I wondered if Dan had something to do. I will just add, if I may. I mean, I concur with what Richard said in terms of our preparedness, it's surprisingly difficult, as you probably are aware, to actually prove the links between weather and climate and emerging diseases. I mean, it's suspected, but there's always confounding factors. The exception, of course, is vector borne diseases where viruses have to get into as part of their life cycle, get into an insect because it's not only the the fact that it can have the effects of climate change or climate effects can allow mosquitoes and other insects to get into new areas that they weren't before, as you alluded to.
But also, we've got really good evidence from laboratory studies that the temperatures. So even for bluetongue, we've got we had midges already that can transmit it. But it's, you know, a small change in temperature can have a massive impact on how quickly the virus can replicate in the midges. So you may have seen, you know, 20 days would be average for bluetongue. And it was shortened down to to three days. So it's it's new diseases that we're alert for things like West Nile.
But also, we've got really good evidence from laboratory studies that the temperatures. So even for bluetongue, we've got we had midges already that can transmit it. But it's, you know, a small change in temperature can have a massive impact on how quickly the virus can replicate in the midges. So you may have seen, you know, 20 days would be average for bluetongue. And it was shortened down to to three days. So it's it's new diseases that we're alert for things like West Nile.
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
One you may have heard of, which is a threat that there are, you know, we have laboratory contingency plans that are maintained and tested for diseases like that, but it's also increased impact of diseases that we know about already in bluetongue is a good example of that this summer, where the weather conditions, I think. conspired to mark.
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12:09
Alistair Carmichael
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Alistair Carmichael
We're alert across it. Yeah. Good, good. Note to end on. Can I thank you for your attendance for your input. We're very much approaching this. I hope, from the point of view of how we learn lessons and do things better in the future. But and in that respect, the evidence that you've given us today is enormously helpful. We could probably carry on down different rabbit holes all day on this, but we are limited in time.
We have overrun it.
We have overrun it.
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