Justice and Home Affairs Committee
Tuesday 3rd November 2026
Skip to latest contribution
This debate has concluded
(began 1 day, 1 hour ago)
Watch LiveSkip to latest contribution
This debate has concluded
10:36
Lord Foster of Bath
-
-
Lord Foster of Bath
Okay. Order, order! The meeting is now being recorded in public. Proceedings are beginning five four. Welcome, everybody. And to this meeting of the Justice and Home Affairs Select Committee. Following up our work on prisons, we're absolutely delighted. We've got Dame Anne Owers with us today. Dame Anne, if you'd be kind enough to just introduce yourself and your background.
10:37
Lord Tope
-
-
Lord Tope
Thank you chair. We told just now we may call you Anne. I hope that is all right. Thank you. I noticed the chair didn't. That's why I thought I would check. I didn't obey your own rule suggestion. Let's move on. Nice simple question to start with. How do we get out of the prison capacity crisis? And what you think about the simple answer to that question? You made a number of recommendations. I think a while back, five recommendations. I see that the then minister accepted the in principle, the majority of them. Can you tell us which ones were not accepted and how you're getting on with the ones that are accepted?
10:38
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
Okay. If I could deal with those questions in turn. I think one of the things in my report or two preliminary comments, my report is pointing not just to one capacity crisis, but to what I called a perma crisis. And those crises have not stopped since I produced the report. Prisons are good at crisis management. They have to be. But if you're operating always under crisis, you're not operating at optimal capacity. And capacity, as I said in my report, isn't just about space. It's about whether you've got the capacity to actually deal with the issues that have brought people to prison in the first place and will bring them back if you don't do something about it.
And also, before I get on to my to my own recommendations, I think there are two rather large elephants in the room, one of which is the rise in prison sentences, which everyone is is aware of at least 40% rise recently, 80% in some serious cases. So that what is building up people is that people are not getting out of prison as quickly, or whatever you do at the front end. And the second, which I also mentioned my report, is the importance of investing in what I call not prison investing in not just the probation service, but those other services in the community which people need if they are not to get there in the first place or not to come back.
And if you look at what's happened in the youth justice system, where when I was inspecting, there were 3000 children in prison, and there are now in the three hundreds because because of the engagement of other services in the community, and there's been a reduction in youth offending. So those are the sort of preliminary comments. How we get out of the crisis is, is, as I say, by in in those in those in my view, those those are some of the key areas. The response to my report. Well, I think this committee will be aware of the fact that when you produce reports, people accept things in principle.
And then you look at the practice and you wonder what precisely has changed. And that, I think, is the case for many of the things that that I recommended. There is , and I know this committee is aware of this, that Amber Rudd is is doing a review of the Prison Service, which I think is needed to, to look independently. And indeed, I would like the Chief Inspector of Prisons to be able to look more at the prison service itself instead of individual prisons. I think that would be helpful. I, I so so that is useful.
I, I also made quite a lot of recommendations about probation, about, about the need to do the same with the probation service because we know what's happened to the probation service, the pressures, the capacity pressures that there are invisible, but very real. And also the need to involve the third sector more in, in planning, not not just in delivery, but in planning for delivery. And I haven't seen any change in that. The thing that both David Gauke review and my own recommended was that there should be some independent advisory body to provide advice and validation of capacity, strategies and challenges in both prisons and probation, and in particular, any proposed changes in the criminal justice system.
It's always tempting to tinker with the system and to tinker with sentencing, as we have found quite recently, there is no independent validation of what might happen as a result. When I started just to conclude, when I started my my own review, I was presented with what the permanent Secretary in the Ministry of Justice had done before, which was to set out something she called Operation Rear View, which is to collect evidence that would show the impending result of what was happening in prisons and prison capacity, which everyone was aware of. That was very helpful to me.
I would like there to be an independent body that that carries out operation forward look, because if you're driving a car and you only ever look in the rear view mirror, you know what will happen. And it keeps on happening. So I don't see as yet any movement. And this is also something David Gauke recommended. I don't yet see any movement on that. I think having some independent body, which is looking at at the impact on capacity in both prisons and probation of any interesting new development thought plan would be incredibly helpful because it's known internally, but it's not always known externally.
And also, before I get on to my to my own recommendations, I think there are two rather large elephants in the room, one of which is the rise in prison sentences, which everyone is is aware of at least 40% rise recently, 80% in some serious cases. So that what is building up people is that people are not getting out of prison as quickly, or whatever you do at the front end. And the second, which I also mentioned my report, is the importance of investing in what I call not prison investing in not just the probation service, but those other services in the community which people need if they are not to get there in the first place or not to come back.
And if you look at what's happened in the youth justice system, where when I was inspecting, there were 3000 children in prison, and there are now in the three hundreds because because of the engagement of other services in the community, and there's been a reduction in youth offending. So those are the sort of preliminary comments. How we get out of the crisis is, is, as I say, by in in those in those in my view, those those are some of the key areas. The response to my report. Well, I think this committee will be aware of the fact that when you produce reports, people accept things in principle.
And then you look at the practice and you wonder what precisely has changed. And that, I think, is the case for many of the things that that I recommended. There is , and I know this committee is aware of this, that Amber Rudd is is doing a review of the Prison Service, which I think is needed to, to look independently. And indeed, I would like the Chief Inspector of Prisons to be able to look more at the prison service itself instead of individual prisons. I think that would be helpful. I, I so so that is useful.
I, I also made quite a lot of recommendations about probation, about, about the need to do the same with the probation service because we know what's happened to the probation service, the pressures, the capacity pressures that there are invisible, but very real. And also the need to involve the third sector more in, in planning, not not just in delivery, but in planning for delivery. And I haven't seen any change in that. The thing that both David Gauke review and my own recommended was that there should be some independent advisory body to provide advice and validation of capacity, strategies and challenges in both prisons and probation, and in particular, any proposed changes in the criminal justice system.
It's always tempting to tinker with the system and to tinker with sentencing, as we have found quite recently, there is no independent validation of what might happen as a result. When I started just to conclude, when I started my my own review, I was presented with what the permanent Secretary in the Ministry of Justice had done before, which was to set out something she called Operation Rear View, which is to collect evidence that would show the impending result of what was happening in prisons and prison capacity, which everyone was aware of. That was very helpful to me.
I would like there to be an independent body that that carries out operation forward look, because if you're driving a car and you only ever look in the rear view mirror, you know what will happen. And it keeps on happening. So I don't see as yet any movement. And this is also something David Gauke recommended. I don't yet see any movement on that. I think having some independent body, which is looking at at the impact on capacity in both prisons and probation of any interesting new development thought plan would be incredibly helpful because it's known internally, but it's not always known externally.
10:42
10:43
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
Well, I think it is it is looking independently at what's happening in in the prison service as a whole. As I say, the chief inspector can look at individual prisons. There isn't at the moment, and I think there should be a regular capacity for looking at what's happening in prisons, what's happening to staffing, what's happening to buildings, what's, you know, all of those things that are very important. So I think that's helpful. But I think your point is a wider one, isn't it, that it is very easy and governments are very good at commissioning independent reviews and, and indeed independent inspections and independent, all kinds of things.
But the advantage of independence, of course, is that you can say what should be happening rather than what can happen right now. But but but the proof of the pudding is, is actually whether anything changes.
But the advantage of independence, of course, is that you can say what should be happening rather than what can happen right now. But but but the proof of the pudding is, is actually whether anything changes.
10:44
10:44
Baroness Bertin
-
-
Baroness Bertin
Yes. Good morning. If we could just sort of carry on a little bit from your your question, the first question about how effective actually are the systems in place for prisoners leaving prisons, for example, tagging, housing and health. I realise there are three quite big meaty subjects, which I realize you can't answer totally in full, but particularly if we could begin on tagging, because as you will be very aware that the victims of domestic abuse are terrified by the early release scheme and the fact that tagging does not seem to be, as far as we can tell, being put put in place in a in a manner that is entirely proper.
10:44
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
No tagging is. I mean, I'm not an expert on tagging, so I'm not I'm not going to venture too many opinions except to say that I know the Institute of Government has done a look at it, hasn't it? And there are some serious issues about about compliance and, and so on and about fitting tags and, and unfitting tags and so on and so forth. And of course, it will it also adds to the pressure on police service and so on. That's that's evident. I think the other problem with tagging, though, is it is enforcement, it's not support.
And if you rely solely on enforcement, I mean, what what people leaving prison very often need is the services that are very stretched outside housing, mental health services, drug and alcohol services, employment, all of those things. I mean, that's the crucial, the crucial thing. If we just invest in prisons or indeed just in, in, in any sort of enforcement, it's I used to say it's a bit like just investing in the accident and emergency services in the health service. What you're doing is picking up what's going wrong elsewhere. You're not actually engaged in prevention support and making people healthier and making people less, making people less likely to commit crimes.
And if you rely solely on enforcement, I mean, what what people leaving prison very often need is the services that are very stretched outside housing, mental health services, drug and alcohol services, employment, all of those things. I mean, that's the crucial, the crucial thing. If we just invest in prisons or indeed just in, in, in any sort of enforcement, it's I used to say it's a bit like just investing in the accident and emergency services in the health service. What you're doing is picking up what's going wrong elsewhere. You're not actually engaged in prevention support and making people healthier and making people less, making people less likely to commit crimes.
10:46
Baroness Bertin
-
-
Baroness Bertin
If I could just have a follow up on that, particularly around housing and health, I mean, how far away do you think we are really in getting to a place that can actually those issues help people from going back into prison as you put forward? I mean, you know, how could you put a sort of estimate on how far away we are from getting to a better place on that.
10:46
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
In quite a long way away? I mean, if you look at the fact that two thirds of those who are homeless will end up back in prison, I mean, that's just one statistic. I mean, I could bore you with statistics for a long while on this, but but but what , you know, what you know is the people who are in prison are, you know, more of them, more of them will have used drugs and more of them have mental health issues. So and we know that community services are very stretched. It is evident the criminal justice system acts as a sort of as a sort of emergency mental health service, both in terms of policing and in terms of prisons.
So it's so, you know, without that, without that, without investment in not prison, I think we're going to be back in the same circle.
So it's so, you know, without that, without that, without investment in not prison, I think we're going to be back in the same circle.
10:47
10:47
10:47
10:47
10:47
Lord Hogan-Howe
-
-
Lord Hogan-Howe
And there's also geofencing, which helps reassure people like domestic violence victims, that people will not be entering an area in which they live, for example. So I just wonder what more because it's not just the present system, which is inefficient, it's the future. That's not, it seems to me, not been mapped out.
10:47
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
Yes. Yeah. I take your point. Lord Hogan-howe. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I'm not saying that tagging is ineffective and certainly can provide some assurance to people, but unless you deal with the underlying causes, it's it's the same as, as, as, as prison. You're, you're not in the end, going to going to make the community safer.
10:47
10:48
Baroness Buscombe
-
-
Baroness Buscombe
Thank you. I have to say, Damon, we're really pleased that you've come here today , because some of us have been debating this for over 20 years. And no change, just a different approach. And the latest one, of course, is to try and sort the cost and time and delay through the Courts and Tribunals bill. So that's supposed to have a positive effect on prison capacity and the prison estate. I'd love to have your.
We'd love to have your thoughts on that. But also what changes you'd like to see made to the bill.
We'd love to have your thoughts on that. But also what changes you'd like to see made to the bill.
10:48
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
I have to confess that I haven't looked at the bill in detail, because it's not something that that it you're right that there will be an effect, certainly a an immediate effect on both prisons and probation. The impact assessment for the bill indicates that there will be there will be a quick consequence pressure consequence for both prisons, prisons and probation in the Courts and Tribunal bill. It's not really. And it will increase probation costs. I think that the premise of the Bill of Faster Justice is a good thing in itself. I mean, it is a good thing for victims.
It's a good thing actually for offenders to to and and what I saw in prisons a lot is prisoners serving almost the whole of their sentence on remand, which is not good for anybody because it means that they can't obviously, they can't be put into offending behaviour programmes because they haven't offended, they're not obliged to go to work or education, and prisons often can't can't make the space for them to do that. So that and people sometimes I found in my report released directly from court without even any probation supervision, because they'd served every part of their sentence already before they'd even been sentenced.
So faster justice is, is, is in principle a good thing. But I go back to the point that it's it requires the support. It requires support for prisons, then to be able to do what they're supposed to do.
It's a good thing actually for offenders to to and and what I saw in prisons a lot is prisoners serving almost the whole of their sentence on remand, which is not good for anybody because it means that they can't obviously, they can't be put into offending behaviour programmes because they haven't offended, they're not obliged to go to work or education, and prisons often can't can't make the space for them to do that. So that and people sometimes I found in my report released directly from court without even any probation supervision, because they'd served every part of their sentence already before they'd even been sentenced.
So faster justice is, is, is in principle a good thing. But I go back to the point that it's it requires the support. It requires support for prisons, then to be able to do what they're supposed to do.
10:50
10:50
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
Absolutely. I know I don't I wish I had more confidence, but as I said earlier, probation, there has been a a capacity crisis in probation for a very long time, not helped by extensive reorganizations and reorganizations and, and, and difficult difficulties with staffing difficulties in, in all areas. So, so I think that, you know, the system is not working as it.
10:50
10:50
Lord Bach
-
-
Lord Bach
No, no. For the next. Well, this is a hugely wide question. I'm going to try and ask you about one aspect of it. The question is what are the major challenges that you see in our prison system moving forward? I'm almost slightly embarrassed asking you that question, and I would like to just direct your mind towards a bit with your experience. Is the issue around prison officers? We've debated this and reported on it quite a lot recently, and there does seem to be a real problem still in terms of prison officers. I wonder if you have any solutions.
10:51
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
Our solutions. I, I agree with you and yes, I if you were to ask me about the major challenges, I think we would probably be here until at least lunchtime. And I don't propose to subject you to that. If you're thinking about staffing. Yes, there is a real problem. There is a problem both in prisons and probation, about the numbers and about the levels of experience of of staff who are dealing with some very, very difficult and problematic people and some very some people have a lot some in prisons, a lot of experience of prisons.
I mean, if you look at the fact that 31% of the main prison officer grade have been there less than three years and only 25% more than ten years. And if you look back to 2010, when I stopped inspecting prisons, there were only 13% of prison officers under three years, and there were 56% who had more than ten years. Now, just being there for a long time doesn't necessarily make you a great prison officer, but it does mean that you've got experience. It does mean that when you're very young and on the landings and you're.
And the thing that struck me when I went round prisons was the inexperience, but also the youth. I mean, these are sometimes 18, 19 year old people who are, are not, you know, there aren't enough experienced prison officers around to, to, to warn them about not not about being strong in the right places and not and not and, and not homing in on the wrong things at the wrong times so that the inexperience, inconsistent practice, limited capacity. And I also have always thought that we do not invest enough in training our prison staff or our prison governors.
They're doing an incredibly difficult job. And. There is there is insufficient investment in continuing in both early and continuous training.
I mean, if you look at the fact that 31% of the main prison officer grade have been there less than three years and only 25% more than ten years. And if you look back to 2010, when I stopped inspecting prisons, there were only 13% of prison officers under three years, and there were 56% who had more than ten years. Now, just being there for a long time doesn't necessarily make you a great prison officer, but it does mean that you've got experience. It does mean that when you're very young and on the landings and you're.
And the thing that struck me when I went round prisons was the inexperience, but also the youth. I mean, these are sometimes 18, 19 year old people who are, are not, you know, there aren't enough experienced prison officers around to, to, to warn them about not not about being strong in the right places and not and not and, and not homing in on the wrong things at the wrong times so that the inexperience, inconsistent practice, limited capacity. And I also have always thought that we do not invest enough in training our prison staff or our prison governors.
They're doing an incredibly difficult job. And. There is there is insufficient investment in continuing in both early and continuous training.
10:53
Lord Bach
-
-
Lord Bach
Can I just have one quick supplementary? I think we if I remember rightly, it looks like our allies are other countries. When we look internationally, kind of professionalize, make it sort of more worthy profession in terms of eyes of the public than prison officers perhaps are sometimes here. Is there something in that should, is, is part of it an attempt to really make it sound and be a better job? And people are able to be more proud of it than they are perhaps sometimes because people aren't particularly appreciative of them. Is there anything in that at all?
10:54
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
I think there's something in it, but I mean, I think perhaps going down the Norway route of two years to two years academic training before you become a prison officer is probably not. I, I think we need definitely more, more training. And also. But it is also about. I think the second bit of your question is important. It's about the respect for the job.
10:54
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
And people don't know what goes on in prison. So people see police officers and the job that they're doing, the very difficult job that they're doing. People don't see prison officers. They don't see what happens behind those walls. So I think more more investment in , in staff generally and, and in-service training and all those. I mean, there are projects starting, but in my experience, projects start and then sometimes they sort of just fade away.
10:54
10:54
Baroness Hughes of Stretford
-
-
Baroness Hughes of Stretford
Thank you chair. Good morning. This committee has called for a greater focus on meaningful, purposeful activity in prisons. And indeed, the Chief Inspector has lamented the lack of meaningful purpose activity now over many decades. Why do you think that is? And what, in your view, is the best way to achieve it? Is it a matter of resource political priority? Is it just in the too difficult box? How do you see that? Because it has been a sustained picture, hasn't it? The failure to realise the potential of prison, to help people when they get out, to avoid offending through activity?
10:55
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
That's absolutely true. It's partly a function of what we were talking about earlier, which is the sheer number of people in prison that that limits budget. I mean, you've only got to look at the fact the education budget, for example. Now, what the Prison Service will say is the education budget hasn't been cut. Well, no, it hasn't. But the number of prisoners has risen and teacher salaries have also risen. So there's an effective 30 to 40% cut in prison education. And and that is crucial because you are often dealing with people who have avoided or been avoided by education for most of their young lives.
And, and you've got an opportunity there to do something. I think the other thing about prison education that I'd say is that one of the things that's taken a real deep dive, real dive is vocational training. Because if you've got people who have, as I say, been avoiding classrooms for most of their lives, sitting them down in a classroom is not necessarily the best way of learning. And we're looking in education generally at vocational training, actually linking in training to what people might want to do. I can remember when I visited Aylesbury Prison a long time ago, and Nissan had invested in a car workshop, a beautifully constructed car workshop, so that kids who outside prison had been taking cars, were now learning and were fascinated by cars, were learning how to fix them, and were really enthused by that.
So that kind of that kind of thing. So I focused a bit on education but generally purposeful activity. I mean, if you look at the surveys from the Prison Inspectorate of of 34% of people locked up for 22 hours a day. I mean, what what's going to happen is they're going to be locked up waiting for the next drone drop or and watching television. It's, you know, we've got there's an opportunity.
You have literally a captive audience and you ought to be doing something with them.
And, and you've got an opportunity there to do something. I think the other thing about prison education that I'd say is that one of the things that's taken a real deep dive, real dive is vocational training. Because if you've got people who have, as I say, been avoiding classrooms for most of their lives, sitting them down in a classroom is not necessarily the best way of learning. And we're looking in education generally at vocational training, actually linking in training to what people might want to do. I can remember when I visited Aylesbury Prison a long time ago, and Nissan had invested in a car workshop, a beautifully constructed car workshop, so that kids who outside prison had been taking cars, were now learning and were fascinated by cars, were learning how to fix them, and were really enthused by that.
So that kind of that kind of thing. So I focused a bit on education but generally purposeful activity. I mean, if you look at the surveys from the Prison Inspectorate of of 34% of people locked up for 22 hours a day. I mean, what what's going to happen is they're going to be locked up waiting for the next drone drop or and watching television. It's, you know, we've got there's an opportunity.
You have literally a captive audience and you ought to be doing something with them.
10:57
Baroness Hughes of Stretford
-
-
Baroness Hughes of Stretford
Do you think the resource constraints are a major factor , or has there grown in the prison service amongst the staff? Are they inured now, you know, more to locking people up all day than they used to be, because it used to be when I visited prisons, when I knew you, you know, that was something that people really officers really wanted to avoid. And yet it's very commonplace now.
10:58
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
I think the combined impact of inexperienced staff, Covid, the Covid lockdowns and some and let's be honest, some difficult, difficult, difficult to reach prisoners. The combination of all of those things, I think, has made a different feel in prisons than it used to be in when when I used to inspect prisons in a bad prison, there was a saying of of officers, happiness is door shaped. In other words, everything was all right as long as the prisoners were behind their doors. That was, that was unusual and rare and frowned upon. It's now become, you know, prisoners locked up for 22 hours a day.
It's now become normalized in some places. And I think so. So I agree with you. I think I think prisons are much less purposeful and much less active places than they used to be when even when when I was inspecting them by any means perfect. But if you look at the assessments of the Chief Inspector of prisons and purposeful activity, I think from memory there's only one closed prison which which he said was good.
It's now become normalized in some places. And I think so. So I agree with you. I think I think prisons are much less purposeful and much less active places than they used to be when even when when I was inspecting them by any means perfect. But if you look at the assessments of the Chief Inspector of prisons and purposeful activity, I think from memory there's only one closed prison which which he said was good.
10:59
11:00
11:00
11:00
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
I would I would say to some extent, the rate of reoffending does depend on the number of short sentence prisoners you've got, of course, because there are now fewer prisoners serving short sentences. And those are your revolving door prisoners. So they will revolve until a certain point at which a light goes on and they and they become too old or they stop doing it. So it does depend a bit on the on the composition of the prison population as well as what's happening in prisons.
11:01
Lord Dubs
-
-
Lord Dubs
Good morning. Anne. In our report, we talked a lot about the power of governors and how much autonomy they have. And indeed, we felt, and I quote from our report, governors are hindered by an overly complicated and confusing management structure. Too much bureaucracy. ET cetera. ET cetera. What do you think?
11:01
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
I agree in principle. And so, of course, as the Prison Governors Association, unsurprisingly, I do think that governors often feel that their hands are tied in terms of things that they can see, that they want to do, even even things that they want to get for the prison, even even or everything is very, is very, very centralised. So I think that and I know that in probation, it's looking they're looking at devolution to local areas . And, and that would fit in with with also governors getting more involved in what's going to happen outside. But it does require training if you are going to give more , more autonomy, more decision making to governors, then you like prison staff you need to invest in because this is a very difficult job to do.
I mean, you're running something which has to provide everything that a small town would, you know, a very complex environment with some very complex people. So I think I think more devolution to governors would be helpful. Combined, combined with more training and also hopefully less movement of governors, I noticed in the Prison Inspectorate report that there was one or was the IMB one prison had had three governors in a year. Well, the staff know that they just need to sit around and wait for the next one. I mean, it's not you know, you're not going to be able to you've got to stay long enough to be able to manage the consequences of the changes that you want to, that you want to put in place.
I mean, you're running something which has to provide everything that a small town would, you know, a very complex environment with some very complex people. So I think I think more devolution to governors would be helpful. Combined, combined with more training and also hopefully less movement of governors, I noticed in the Prison Inspectorate report that there was one or was the IMB one prison had had three governors in a year. Well, the staff know that they just need to sit around and wait for the next one. I mean, it's not you know, you're not going to be able to you've got to stay long enough to be able to manage the consequences of the changes that you want to, that you want to put in place.
11:02
11:03
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
It's certainly something that prison governors have said that they would like to be more involved in. And I can see the point that in in other institutions, you do get to choose the people who work for you in a school and so on. So I, I think I think more, I think also more a different, more different kind of interviewing for prison staff because there's an awful lot of drop out very early on in prison staff because people genuinely don't realise what they're getting into. And an experienced governor would be able probably to ask the right questions.
11:03
11:04
Lord Anderson of Ipswich
-
-
Lord Anderson of Ipswich
Well thank you. The question is about oversight. This committee found last year that the recommendations of the Chief Inspector are often disregarded, even if, as I think you were hinting, they may have been accepted in theory. And it also found that the capacity for the independent monitoring boards to deliver robust and consistent oversight had diminished. And I wondered if you had any thoughts on those conclusions, whether you agree with them. What do you think perhaps ought to be done to remedy them, if you do agree? And then if that wasn't enough, can I add a final curveball?
It's something this committee has been thinking about in a slightly different context. Do you think there is still any place for crown immunity in our prison service?
It's something this committee has been thinking about in a slightly different context. Do you think there is still any place for crown immunity in our prison service?
11:04
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
Well. Oversight mechanisms. I think there's always been a tension, I think, in oversight between effectiveness and independence. If you're going to be independent, you can't you won't be recommending things that this service can immediately do or can or, and sometimes it doesn't want to do. I mean, you wouldn't be independent if all you were doing was, was, was saying how, how things, how things should be, how things are so. In prison. And that for that reason, chief Inspector of prisons have always been independent, always come from outside the Prison service and, and have always been genuinely, genuinely independent.
So you're not tied to what the system can currently do, which does create a tension because you are sometimes recommending things that can't immediately happen. However, I do think that there ought to be a rather more effective mechanism of of testing what actually has been done in, in relation to inspection reports review. You talked about the number of reviews and so on. Are it's I think I think I think some sort of formal reporting reporting to this House or to, or to, to the other place some, some formal look at what what has actually happened would be, would be incredibly, would be incredibly helpful.
And that's one of the reasons why in my review, I was talking about some, some sort of body that was looking forward at what was happening because what inspectorate's all Inspectorates can do, if they do it well, is to tell you what's happening now and, and what the consequences of your actions have been. They can't they can't predict. They can't they can't tell you what is happening at the time. They tell you what's happening at the time, not what might happen in terms of independent monitoring boards. It is I think it is. There are some there's some genuine difficulties.
Recruitment is always is always going to be difficulty difficult to a voluntary, unpaid, unpaid role. The advantage of independent monitoring boards is that they are there all the time, and really they ought to be a very effective complement to the inspectorate because they're your they're your permanent. They can tell you, you know, what the trajectory of a prison is, as opposed to a deep dive at one particular moment. So it feeds in very well to occasional inspecting, having people there, there on the ground. And I think the most recent annual report of the Imb's is, is a really good description of what is happening just now in the prison system.
So I think working together, those two bits of, of, of inspection can do all that inspection can do, which is to tell you what's actually happening.
So you're not tied to what the system can currently do, which does create a tension because you are sometimes recommending things that can't immediately happen. However, I do think that there ought to be a rather more effective mechanism of of testing what actually has been done in, in relation to inspection reports review. You talked about the number of reviews and so on. Are it's I think I think I think some sort of formal reporting reporting to this House or to, or to, to the other place some, some formal look at what what has actually happened would be, would be incredibly, would be incredibly helpful.
And that's one of the reasons why in my review, I was talking about some, some sort of body that was looking forward at what was happening because what inspectorate's all Inspectorates can do, if they do it well, is to tell you what's happening now and, and what the consequences of your actions have been. They can't they can't predict. They can't they can't tell you what is happening at the time. They tell you what's happening at the time, not what might happen in terms of independent monitoring boards. It is I think it is. There are some there's some genuine difficulties.
Recruitment is always is always going to be difficulty difficult to a voluntary, unpaid, unpaid role. The advantage of independent monitoring boards is that they are there all the time, and really they ought to be a very effective complement to the inspectorate because they're your they're your permanent. They can tell you, you know, what the trajectory of a prison is, as opposed to a deep dive at one particular moment. So it feeds in very well to occasional inspecting, having people there, there on the ground. And I think the most recent annual report of the Imb's is, is a really good description of what is happening just now in the prison system.
So I think working together, those two bits of, of, of inspection can do all that inspection can do, which is to tell you what's actually happening.
11:08
11:08
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
And crown immunity. Yeah. I, I am surprised by a couple of things. Looking at crown immunity. I'm surprised, for example, that the police and the NHS don't have crown immunity. And I'm also surprised that private sector prisons don't. And it does seem to me rather strange to the point of being really difficult to defend, is that if you are lucky enough to be in a private prison, it. Then it will have to. It will have to comply with what, what what with with the Crown premises, fire safety inspection. If you're in a public sector prison, well, they can say, well, we we might do something about it, but we haven't done anything about it right yet.
I noticed there were nine step away notices recently, including two in a young offender institution, which is and I know this committee has taken a lot of interest in fire safety. Which is which is one of the one of the huge risks. But there are others such as Legionella, such as radon, such, you know, there are there are these are these are these are potentially very risky places and, you know, fire, fire safety smoke alarms. So I, I struggle to see why there shouldn't be why there should still be crown immunity with, with, with other public sector bodies.
There are sort of reduced fines. So you don't, you don't reduce the capacity of the body to be able to act by, by enforcing. But you do it concentrates the mind wonderfully.
I noticed there were nine step away notices recently, including two in a young offender institution, which is and I know this committee has taken a lot of interest in fire safety. Which is which is one of the one of the huge risks. But there are others such as Legionella, such as radon, such, you know, there are there are these are these are these are potentially very risky places and, you know, fire, fire safety smoke alarms. So I, I struggle to see why there shouldn't be why there should still be crown immunity with, with, with other public sector bodies.
There are sort of reduced fines. So you don't, you don't reduce the capacity of the body to be able to act by, by enforcing. But you do it concentrates the mind wonderfully.
11:09
Lord Foster of Bath
-
-
Lord Foster of Bath
Thank you very much. It was already referred to the large number of reviews that have taken place about prisons in one aspect or another of them in recent times. And we've also had annual Chief Inspector of Prisons reports and of course, the probation reports, all of this happening. But I think you rather implied not a lot has changed. I can also tell you that, sadly, our committee advisor has just looked up the figures to show that, in fact, there has been no change in the return rate of prisoners over the last sort of 30 odd years.
So apart from a slight blip during Covid, it's remained remarkably consistent. So my question is, what is your view about all these reports and yet everything remaining much the same? What can we do to give Chief Inspector reports, reports of committees like this and others a bit more teeth to get some changes made?
So apart from a slight blip during Covid, it's remained remarkably consistent. So my question is, what is your view about all these reports and yet everything remaining much the same? What can we do to give Chief Inspector reports, reports of committees like this and others a bit more teeth to get some changes made?
11:10
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
I wish I had a really very concise answer to this, and I'm not sure I do. Reviews. Usually reviews almost always follow a disaster, don't they, rather than preventing it. So I think the I think the trick is to try to make sure that those preventive mechanisms which exist have I. As I said in answer to the previous question, I don't think you can have an enforcement role because otherwise you couldn't point to what's good and what's necessary rather than what's possible. But certainly a greater a greater accountability for to the prison service for responding to and, and, and not sort of saying in principle, we, we, we accept this when in practice, as I said, nothing, nothing has happened.
And there are lots of organisations also in the voluntary sector that, that are good, that that point to things that that do go wrong. And I am very tired of hearing, you know, lessons have been learnt. Well, if they had I'm I'm afraid I wish they had because I don't think you'd pass the GCSE if, if that was, if that was the way that you'd learnt lessons because they, they tend not to. So to I think a more , a more active role for the Chief Inspector in terms of the prison service, as I've said, a reporting to Parliament on, on on recommendations and what's actually happened.
But sometimes these things do take time. But but it it isn't it isn't enough simply to say.
And there are lots of organisations also in the voluntary sector that, that are good, that that point to things that that do go wrong. And I am very tired of hearing, you know, lessons have been learnt. Well, if they had I'm I'm afraid I wish they had because I don't think you'd pass the GCSE if, if that was, if that was the way that you'd learnt lessons because they, they tend not to. So to I think a more , a more active role for the Chief Inspector in terms of the prison service, as I've said, a reporting to Parliament on, on on recommendations and what's actually happened.
But sometimes these things do take time. But but it it isn't it isn't enough simply to say.
11:12
11:12
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
I think inevitably it would. As I say, I think it concentrates the mind wonderfully. If it didn't, we wouldn't have a criminal justice system. It's it. Unless if there is no penalty whatsoever for things which are which are unsafe and potentially catastrophic. And, and of course, you know, as and when a catastrophe happens, as we found in other areas of public life, everyone wrings their hands and says, you know, why didn't we know? Why didn't we do something about it beforehand? Well, this is a way of doing something about it beforehand.
11:13
11:13
Baroness Berridge
-
-
Baroness Berridge
You mentioned earlier about planning and the third sector being involved in planning. Could you give us I used two years ago, be involved in a charity called Kainos that merged with Langley Partnership because we couldn't manage the big procurement that MoJ needed. So just as background, what's happening to the third sector, who are involved in in rehabilitation over sort of the last in terms of their their capacity and involvement in our prison estate.
11:14
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
It's not been easy. And I one of the things that I found a bit disappointing in the questions that Amber Rudd's review was asking was that there was no mention at all of the third sector, but I understand that she has reached out to third sector organisations and is doing something with them. They. It tends to be the sort of. Oh yes, and whereas actually the third sector can be really influential because they have got those links outside that prison staff don't have and that sometimes operation staff don't have. They provide that really essential link.
And very often I used to be very depressed when I went into prisons, and I would commend a particularly good and effective model that was being done, usually with third sector involvement. And you go back next time. And it had gone because there wasn't there weren't the resources or they couldn't get the staff for it. I think we've got to think the third sector as more than an add on. Oh, you know, you can you can do this for us, but actually learn from what the third sector knows and can do well and can tell you that.
So they've got to be a genuine partner. Partnerships are talked about a lot, but they very often mean, you know, we, we, we we talk. You do.
And very often I used to be very depressed when I went into prisons, and I would commend a particularly good and effective model that was being done, usually with third sector involvement. And you go back next time. And it had gone because there wasn't there weren't the resources or they couldn't get the staff for it. I think we've got to think the third sector as more than an add on. Oh, you know, you can you can do this for us, but actually learn from what the third sector knows and can do well and can tell you that.
So they've got to be a genuine partner. Partnerships are talked about a lot, but they very often mean, you know, we, we, we we talk. You do.
11:15
11:15
Lord Empey
-
-
Lord Empey
Good morning. At the very beginning of your answers, you referred to our lengths of sentencing. And that is, of course, a political decision, basically. It would be nice to know if the evidence between long and short and so on. But the point is, if you have longer sentences and we have a high rate of reoffending, if you then shorten the sentences, if the high rate of reoffending isn't curbed, then in fact you're not actually solving anything. So. What is your assessment then of what we do about the sentencing? We seem to be a bit of an outlier in Western countries.
And I'm just wondering, is it simply a reaction to political or throw them, lock the key and throw it away and all that sort of thing? What assessment have you made of that and whether bringing shorter sentences, if it would make any difference, would would it in fact make any difference to the number of people in prison?
And I'm just wondering, is it simply a reaction to political or throw them, lock the key and throw it away and all that sort of thing? What assessment have you made of that and whether bringing shorter sentences, if it would make any difference, would would it in fact make any difference to the number of people in prison?
11:16
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
Perhaps I could answer that in two different ways. One is that actually very short, short sentences really don't work. But in order for them to in order to not to do that, you have to invest in what I call not prison. It's no good . Just saying, you know, the, the, the idea is that there won't be short sentences that the that they will be dealt with by the probation service. You're going to have to do a heck of a lot of investment, because those are the people with the problems that we just talked about, that need, that need dealing with.
So in terms of in terms of sentencing, I one of the things that I am intrigued by is the, the notion of early release, which is the way that we have dealt with increasing sentence lengths and, and prison capacity. I could wish that we wouldn't talk about early release and that we could talk about conditional release, because it has always been the case that most people will not serve in prison. The sentence of the court that they were given way back in the 19th century, we had ticket of leave. We used to have remission for good behaviour after immediately after the Second World War, and I was very intrigued to look at in 1967.
Quintin Hogg, Lord Hailsham, as he then wasn't, and Roy Jenkins joined together in the 1967 Criminal Justice Bill, which said that prisoners that prisoners should serve a third of their sentence in prison, a third of their sentence on parole, having just created the parole board and a third of the sentence remitted. Does that sound awfully familiar? It sounds exactly like David Gauke nearly 70 years later. So you know, this this is I as I say, I wish we could we could then talk about a structured sentence and the structure that critically, depending on doing something effective in prison, doing something effective in the community and.
And instead of moving all the time. And we, you know, we vary between people spend half of their sentence in prison. They spend 40% in prison, they spend a third in prison. And for the public, it just looks completely it looks as if it's completely random. And if it is and and if it is as it is being driven by capacity and not by effectively dealing with people. If we had a system up front that said, this is the effective way of dealing with people, and some of it will be in prison and some of it will be in the community.
Instead of this constant moving around. I don't think it does anything for public confidence.
So in terms of in terms of sentencing, I one of the things that I am intrigued by is the, the notion of early release, which is the way that we have dealt with increasing sentence lengths and, and prison capacity. I could wish that we wouldn't talk about early release and that we could talk about conditional release, because it has always been the case that most people will not serve in prison. The sentence of the court that they were given way back in the 19th century, we had ticket of leave. We used to have remission for good behaviour after immediately after the Second World War, and I was very intrigued to look at in 1967.
Quintin Hogg, Lord Hailsham, as he then wasn't, and Roy Jenkins joined together in the 1967 Criminal Justice Bill, which said that prisoners that prisoners should serve a third of their sentence in prison, a third of their sentence on parole, having just created the parole board and a third of the sentence remitted. Does that sound awfully familiar? It sounds exactly like David Gauke nearly 70 years later. So you know, this this is I as I say, I wish we could we could then talk about a structured sentence and the structure that critically, depending on doing something effective in prison, doing something effective in the community and.
And instead of moving all the time. And we, you know, we vary between people spend half of their sentence in prison. They spend 40% in prison, they spend a third in prison. And for the public, it just looks completely it looks as if it's completely random. And if it is and and if it is as it is being driven by capacity and not by effectively dealing with people. If we had a system up front that said, this is the effective way of dealing with people, and some of it will be in prison and some of it will be in the community.
Instead of this constant moving around. I don't think it does anything for public confidence.
11:19
Baroness Buscombe
-
-
Baroness Buscombe
Very quickly. So you talked about the enormous advantage of trying to focus on prevention, and some of the future feels a bit bleak and possibly catastrophic in terms of where we are. We in our report, we did have quite a lot of evidence which showed that there is a huge increase in violence within prisons, and also so that being a reason why people are banged up for 22 hours at a time, because it's just too tough on the staff. Violence against staff. The drones have drugs coming in should do we need to be a bit more brutal in in explaining to the government just what it is that is happening in our prisons, as well as those who are due to be deported on release being released because the Home Office hasn't got around to organising their papers, for example.
The public, in other words, need to hear and need a response from government on some of these tough areas.
The public, in other words, need to hear and need a response from government on some of these tough areas.
11:20
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
I think I think you're right about about about safety. I mean, prisons are less safe than they used to be. That is certainly, certainly the case. I think I think that takes that has two aspects. One is, is violence in prison and assaults which have been increasing, although they seem to have to have plateaued recently. And the other is, is, is suicide and self-harm. Self-harm rates have rocketed in recent years, and they've always been high in women's prisons and higher than they should be. So I think safety takes both of both of those aspects, the safety of prisoners and staff from each other and but also the safety, safety from yourself.
And again, I think I think the more that you the more that, that, that, that your overcrowded and you're just dealing with, with, with the, with today, the, the, the less people. There was a very interesting, I think the MoJ has done a study which shows that prisons that have more purposeful activity, violence goes down. Who knew who's ever dealt with with, you know, adolescent or teenagers or adolescents and, and so on. And, and, and, and young men and young women. So I think it all hangs together. And of course, you know, if, if there are drugs in prison also, I mean, that's going to that that is going to, to result in, in debts and debts lead to violence.
And again, I think I think the more that you the more that, that, that, that your overcrowded and you're just dealing with, with, with the, with today, the, the, the less people. There was a very interesting, I think the MoJ has done a study which shows that prisons that have more purposeful activity, violence goes down. Who knew who's ever dealt with with, you know, adolescent or teenagers or adolescents and, and so on. And, and, and, and young men and young women. So I think it all hangs together. And of course, you know, if, if there are drugs in prison also, I mean, that's going to that that is going to, to result in, in debts and debts lead to violence.
11:22
Lord Foster of Bath
-
-
Lord Foster of Bath
Thank you very much indeed. All that's a rather depressing note to end on, although I did note that was suggesting that we be brutal with the government having talked about violence in prisons. So I'm not quite sure. But but it's been an enormously helpful session based on your very many years of experience in the field, for which many thanks for all you've done. But on behalf of the entire committee, thank you very much indeed.
Order, order! The public evidence session is now concluded.
Order, order! The public evidence session is now concluded.