Justice and Home Affairs Committee
Wednesday 11th November 2026
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10:34
Lord Foster of Bath
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Lord Foster of Bath
The meeting is now being recorded and public proceedings are beginning. Five. Four. Welcome, everybody, and welcome to this meeting of the Justice and Home Affairs Select Committee. Looking at the work of the Ministry of Justice, and we're absolutely delighted to have the Lord Chancellor with us. Lord Chancellor, if you'd be just for the record, just announce yourself and your title and your responsibilities.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Well, as all new Lord chancellors have for many years now, and sadly have been, I think, eight of us in seven years. Upon opening the inbox, as it were, there have been two particularly hot running problems that have been uppermost in my challenges. Firstly, a crisis in prison places that mean that if we hadn't taken the action we took in the Sentencing Act and over the summer, we would have run out of prison places any day now. Set against increasing waiting lists in court times. That mean that people are having intolerable delays for justice. And, you know, my responsibility, so far as I say, implementation of the Sentencing Act, the continued progression of the Courts and Tribunals Bill is to manage those two issues, but not only to but not solely to live and manage those issues.
It's to manage those issues down to a place where the system gets back to doing what it should be doing as a criminal justice system, particularly around reducing reoffending, which has withered on the vine as the system kind of gets more and more addicted to crisis. So that's what we've been up to in the criminal space. We've got very important and new and emerging trends in our tribunals, particularly the, you know, the rapid growth in use of of automated tools mean that now we're seeing significant behaviour change that, if not addressed now, will later give us serious challenges.
The third leg and the kind of the third priority, you know, one of my soft signals of success in this role is that I want to really reach across Parliament, across government, frankly, to the understanding that the Justice Department, the MoJ, is one of the ultimate growth departments. We have this incredible gem in our in our civil law, we are the you know, England and Wales is the best legal jurisdiction in the world. We're a place of we're a destination of choice. It's a £40 billion part of our economy. And as the global economy changes, particularly again with with AI and quantum computing, our scope to develop that is really significant.
And that's a major priority. And then lastly, but by no means least, you know, I swore my very important oath around protecting the independence of the judiciary. And, you know, it's my role and this is in every minute and every hour of every day, one to be, you know, that voice both in government but also in parliament around protecting that independence of the judiciary so that we can be what we are, which is that exemplar system around the world.
It's to manage those issues down to a place where the system gets back to doing what it should be doing as a criminal justice system, particularly around reducing reoffending, which has withered on the vine as the system kind of gets more and more addicted to crisis. So that's what we've been up to in the criminal space. We've got very important and new and emerging trends in our tribunals, particularly the, you know, the rapid growth in use of of automated tools mean that now we're seeing significant behaviour change that, if not addressed now, will later give us serious challenges.
The third leg and the kind of the third priority, you know, one of my soft signals of success in this role is that I want to really reach across Parliament, across government, frankly, to the understanding that the Justice Department, the MoJ, is one of the ultimate growth departments. We have this incredible gem in our in our civil law, we are the you know, England and Wales is the best legal jurisdiction in the world. We're a place of we're a destination of choice. It's a £40 billion part of our economy. And as the global economy changes, particularly again with with AI and quantum computing, our scope to develop that is really significant.
And that's a major priority. And then lastly, but by no means least, you know, I swore my very important oath around protecting the independence of the judiciary. And, you know, it's my role and this is in every minute and every hour of every day, one to be, you know, that voice both in government but also in parliament around protecting that independence of the judiciary so that we can be what we are, which is that exemplar system around the world.
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10:37
Lord Empey
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Lord Empey
10:37
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
This is, you know, an absolutely crucial issue. We are in a a negative cycle at the moment where, you know, when you have prisoner states that have run as hot as they have done for us now for a long period of time, you know, when I speak to governors and to staff and to prisoners themselves, they talk of how hard it is to get individuals around the estates into the right places. So whether that's for substance misuse, alcohol treatment, education classes, mental health support, offending behaviours, type training, all those things that we would want to use inmates time productively on that is harder and harder.
So as a result, the individuals who leave there is a risk they are less rehabilitated than they ought to be. And therefore we are seeing significant levels of recall. The recall population has doubled over the last decade. That is a symptom of a system that isn't working, which is why the changes that we've made are so important to create the space to do it properly. I mean, there are green shoots and colleagues will know from their own experiences and visits that they've done of some of the Herculean efforts by staff. I mean, I was at HMP Cardiff on Monday and there were reception prisoners, so they're seeing prisoners generally for a pretty short period of time.
And you could be forgiven for thinking that that wouldn't be a particularly impactful one. But the work they're doing from day one to to start that journey for individuals as they go to other parts of the system. I was really impressed by and, you know, sort of more systemically, you know, there are green shoots, you know, for example, the, the employment rate for individuals who've served sentences of a year or more at six months has grown considerably over the last five years, from 15% in 2021 to 40% now. That's not where the end state that we'd want, but there are there are signs in there that it can be done, but it is nowhere near where we'd want it to be, which is why the the changes that we've made, I think are so important.
So as a result, the individuals who leave there is a risk they are less rehabilitated than they ought to be. And therefore we are seeing significant levels of recall. The recall population has doubled over the last decade. That is a symptom of a system that isn't working, which is why the changes that we've made are so important to create the space to do it properly. I mean, there are green shoots and colleagues will know from their own experiences and visits that they've done of some of the Herculean efforts by staff. I mean, I was at HMP Cardiff on Monday and there were reception prisoners, so they're seeing prisoners generally for a pretty short period of time.
And you could be forgiven for thinking that that wouldn't be a particularly impactful one. But the work they're doing from day one to to start that journey for individuals as they go to other parts of the system. I was really impressed by and, you know, sort of more systemically, you know, there are green shoots, you know, for example, the, the employment rate for individuals who've served sentences of a year or more at six months has grown considerably over the last five years, from 15% in 2021 to 40% now. That's not where the end state that we'd want, but there are there are signs in there that it can be done, but it is nowhere near where we'd want it to be, which is why the the changes that we've made, I think are so important.
10:39
Lord Empey
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Lord Empey
Lord Chancellor, the this committee has been vexed by the lack of autonomy that we think governors have, and we've got a ludicrous, ludicrous position where they can't sign off on more than £500, I mean , expenditure. And we do feel that if we had governors with much more autonomy, things could be more efficient and improve. Have you a view on that?
10:39
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Yeah. I mean, I've had those same conversations both with individual governors and with the Prison Governors Association. I mean, I'd start by saying I have absolutely no desire to micromanage sort of local purchasing decisions. I want our really skilled governors, you know, to do their jobs and to be able to do them freely. I'm looking closely at the different experiences in public prisons and private prisons where the rules are different to see, you know, kind of the impact there is. I mean, if this feels like a set of arrangements that's built up over time and I, you know, I can't quite point to the individual case, but I have no doubt there will have been cases in the past where there'll be an unpopular news story about perhaps an eccentric purchase decision, and therefore instantly the system kind of crowds around and, and starts micromanaging, you know, in, in the spirit of the question, I do think that that needs revisiting.
And, you know, those are the types of conversations I'm having at the moment.
And, you know, those are the types of conversations I'm having at the moment.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
It's interesting actually. Sorry, just to just to on, on the purchase level point because that I'm, you know, governors are telling me there's two things. They're either a, you spend over the limit to buy the bit of kit, whatever it be, the washing machine, a crucial aspect of prison life. And you have to wait. And the impact that has or. And I think this is a kind of a quieter harm. You seek to buy something under the limit, which perhaps isn't going to be as robust, resilient, or good quality, and therefore you churn through them more quickly.
So there is no doubt, you know, that that is not what we would want to see. So I think there's a lot for us to do in that space.
So there is no doubt, you know, that that is not what we would want to see. So I think there's a lot for us to do in that space.
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10:41
Lord Foster of Bath
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Lord Foster of Bath
Just before we move on, one of the areas that will lead to the reduction of reoffending is addressing, and you sort of hinted at this in the mental health problems of prisoners and the issues around drug, alcohol and gambling. There is a huge inadequacy of support at the moment for helping those people with those disorders. And the current health bill before Parliament leaves responsibility to icbs to can sorting out what the provision is. And yet there's a huge current disjunction between the local ICB and the prison, which might be a long way away. Would you welcome measures to integrate the care package in such a way that there's continuity of care when a prisoner leaves prison, to provision of support in the community?
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Lord Foster of Bath
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Lord Foster of Bath
To provision of support in the community. I am a strong advocate. Have been throughout my time in Parliament for place based decision making, particularly in healthcare, but actually whole. population need. And, you know, I chaired my Health and Wellbeing board for many years in Nottingham. And the what my learning from that was that you have to have all those local. components there at that level where a really good local decision can be made, and that if you have organisations that have national footprints and aren't and don't take their relevant stake into it, that can really hold it back.
So I, you know, I would always seek to promote those things. One of our challenges, frankly, is, you know, we've got a big national system. You do want to procure and get good quality and value. You know, it would in your ideal.
So I, you know, I would always seek to promote those things. One of our challenges, frankly, is, you know, we've got a big national system. You do want to procure and get good quality and value. You know, it would in your ideal.
11:00
Lord Foster of Bath
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Lord Foster of Bath
You would have, you know. individuals accessing certainly in the case of substance misuse or alcohol treatment, you know, the same provider when they leave as they had when they're in. So they're not telling their story twice. So that the, you know, the kind of therapeutic methodology is similar. There are reasons why that's not always going to be the case, not least because if you picked a point, you know, the of the 150 upper tier local authorities, you'd find different arrangements everywhere. So that's not always easy to do. Plus, I'm always mindful that someone leaving HMP Nottingham is not.
necessarily coming back into my constituency. So there are reasons why that doesn't.
necessarily coming back into my constituency. So there are reasons why that doesn't.
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Lord Foster of Bath
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Lord Foster of Bath
Multiple months, pre-release. And that can only happen, I would argue, at a place based level, particularly the housing elements, particularly the healthcare elements. So you know that that is the culture that we want to do, so that when people leave, they're leaving on the most resilient basis possible. I am grateful for that answer. I mean, there are real problems of the. continuity of care under the present system and likely to be the case in the future with the.
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Lord Foster of Bath
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Lord Foster of Bath
Become a more severe problem. How are you going to manage that? Well, as you say, Lord Dobbs, that is, you know, the thing that is always top of the inbox on on every day for me, you know, the system has run hot for a very long period of time. Colleagues will know the, the history in, in building, you know, and, and I won't rehearse my my political lines for the purposes of this debate. But it is doubtless that we as a new government have spent the last two years trying to start to reanimate rebuilding. And we've got a commitment to 14,000 more places by.
11:01
Lord Foster of Bath
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Lord Foster of Bath
Which is. £5 billion spend, of which. 3300 have been built. So there is a building component to it. That's a very important part of it. And then the changes that we've made in the Sentencing Act, which means that people will spend less of their. sentence in custody, but more of their time in the community under very.
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Lord Foster of Bath
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Lord Foster of Bath
That, again, is helping us. You know, we are that the the that started at the beginning of October and is being phased over the next few months before being business as usual in terms of sentence structure, that is having an impact in making sure that we have a a state that that means that people who need a prison place will always get one. And that. And that is a .
11:01
Lord Dubs
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Lord Dubs
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Lord Foster of Bath
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Lord Foster of Bath
You know, has rightly challenged us as a cabinet and as a government that we should never use reviews in place of action. You know, that a review for the sake of a review. But I'm mindful at the moment, as the committee will be, that we have a review into prisons going on at the moment, led by Amber Rudd, obviously, who's. outstanding alumna of, of, of, of the Commons. And we're very, very lucky to have her doing that. But I would never you know, that was commissioned before I came into my role. But I was one of my first decisions.
I was very clear that to, to reiterate our commitment to that, because actually I do feel we benefit from them. And, you know, you will look across the MoJ, you'll see we've had an independent sentencing review, we've had an independent courts review, an outstanding work that that noble Lord Liverpool did. I've got Ambers review like those, you know, public policy does not. necessarily kind of lift and shift from those reviews onto the statute book, but we use them as really vital .
I was very clear that to, to reiterate our commitment to that, because actually I do feel we benefit from them. And, you know, you will look across the MoJ, you'll see we've had an independent sentencing review, we've had an independent courts review, an outstanding work that that noble Lord Liverpool did. I've got Ambers review like those, you know, public policy does not. necessarily kind of lift and shift from those reviews onto the statute book, but we use them as really vital .
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Lord Foster of Bath
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Lord Foster of Bath
As a result, under your watch, your government's watch, the. education levels have fallen in prison. Now you don't need another report to say that there's something badly wrong and that needs to be resolved in that one area. I could give many other examples. So why do we need another. report to sort out problems that have already been very clearly. identified by the large number of reports that Lord Dobbs has reported to? And why is it that the Chief Inspector of.
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Lord Foster of Bath
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Lord Foster of Bath
Yet nothing has been done. We don't need another report. I'm not sure I could fully accept the characterization that nothing's been done. I mean, the point that I made in answer to a previous question, that the reality that we want and the reality that we have are different at the moment because of the nature of the estate, which means we are. limited and have been limited in what what provision we're able to, to do, you know, to link it back to a previous report, the changes that came through in our sentencing review have now been turned into policy, which takes time, well, turns into policy, then turned into legislation and then implemented.
That is now giving us the space to do those things or will give us the space in order to do those things. So I accept, you know, this is a good opportunity to pay my own tribute to Charlie Taylor. I think he's done an outstanding job. I worked with what my work was with him as well. When I was minister for borders and asylum on immigration removal centres, and now in this role, and I recognise his frustrations. But the changes we've made are in the service of making those of giving us those space. I mean, on the point on on.
That is now giving us the space to do those things or will give us the space in order to do those things. So I accept, you know, this is a good opportunity to pay my own tribute to Charlie Taylor. I think he's done an outstanding job. I worked with what my work was with him as well. When I was minister for borders and asylum on immigration removal centres, and now in this role, and I recognise his frustrations. But the changes we've made are in the service of making those of giving us those space. I mean, on the point on on.
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Lord Foster of Bath
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Lord Foster of Bath
I mean, the budget is the same. We have had cost increases. That means that that has had an impact on capacity. One thing that is of a priority to me is actually making sure that attendance and take up of that is better so that the money we get, we can get people through those classes and they are turning up to them. And there is that encouragement, which again is a is a function of of capacity, I'd argue as well. So, you know, we have to do that thing to create that space. And then I think, you know, and I hope to see from, from, from, from the Rudd review, then, you know, what might then take us what the next dimension is, the supporting, what the next .
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Lord Foster of Bath
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Lord Foster of Bath
That's the real value. We'll add just one final point, if I can. One of the things that to deal with the capacity issue has been the. introduction through the Sentencing Act of the early release scheme. Was it a mistake to call it an early release? I mean, I am contractually obliged . I would get a zap if I ever called it early release. I try never to use that phrase. It isn't our phrase. Our phrase is the progression model, and that's that. The structure of a sentence has changed. So it's that third, a third, a third, a third in custody, a third under significant control in the.
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Lord Foster of Bath
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Lord Foster of Bath
And again, this is another of my kind of soft signals of success in this role. What the changes in the Sentencing Act have been designed to do. Our intent with them was to get us out of the doom loop of early release of what we've seen in recent years. Pressure builds up. We do an early release scheme, we take a breath, pressure builds up, we do an early release scheme, but instead to have long term, you know, on the statute book, business as usual change to. sentencing so that it keeps us out of that. And it means that we've got the capacity we need.
And I think that's the positive step in in there. Nevertheless, you know, ultimately what matters is the way in which the public see it. So, you know, I'm not going to have an argument with sophistry with the public on what the difference between an early release scheme and a progression model is. But they do want to know when people are leaving and who's leaving. And that's been a big part of, obviously, the work over the summer. Part of the answer you yourself said, we have yet another early release scheme, but if I could just go, just.
remind you, I'm sure you know this already, that the fascinating thing is you've moved effectively to a third, a third, a third, which is exactly the same as the. sentencing policy that used to exist in the 1960s. So we just simply gone backwards. And at that time, so-called early release was not seen as a problem. It was accepted that that's how the system worked, and it was due. punishment and opportunity to get. rehabilitation to reduce levels of reoffending.
And I think that's the positive step in in there. Nevertheless, you know, ultimately what matters is the way in which the public see it. So, you know, I'm not going to have an argument with sophistry with the public on what the difference between an early release scheme and a progression model is. But they do want to know when people are leaving and who's leaving. And that's been a big part of, obviously, the work over the summer. Part of the answer you yourself said, we have yet another early release scheme, but if I could just go, just.
remind you, I'm sure you know this already, that the fascinating thing is you've moved effectively to a third, a third, a third, which is exactly the same as the. sentencing policy that used to exist in the 1960s. So we just simply gone backwards. And at that time, so-called early release was not seen as a problem. It was accepted that that's how the system worked, and it was due. punishment and opportunity to get. rehabilitation to reduce levels of reoffending.
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Baroness Hughes of Stretford
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Baroness Hughes of Stretford
And more changes coming down the track with the increase in tagging, the progression model, as you call it, the early release scheme, the Court and. Tribunal bill. And so there have been serious staff. shortages and serious issues about the level of of experience of probation staff for many, many years now. We'd like to know how you're addressing those long standing issues. We're aware of the extra money, but we feel that the the level of. intervention required to support the. probation at this time and to redress some of those issues goes far beyond money. You know, the the staffing situation is very, very serious.
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Lord Foster of Bath
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Lord Foster of Bath
Their workload and caseloads. Thank you for that question. I mean, I think it's safe to say that probation has been a bit of a forgotten part of the system over the years, or certainly an. underappreciated one. And the work that those people do is absolutely vital, and we are very lucky to have them. I went to the I conscious leadership in front of you.
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Lord Foster of Bath
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Lord Foster of Bath
And I went to the Napo conference in Newcastle a few weeks ago. I think I was the first person in my role to to address that conference. My commitment I made to them as upholding my part of the deal, because we are asking them, you know, to to do even more crucial work as part of the progression model. And, and my commitment to them was that I thought we needed two improvements to their working lives. Firstly, there needed to be better paid. You know, they had a 6% increase last year. They offer this year is 5%, which is pretty much close to the best in across the public sector.
That is, of course subject to ballot action at the moment. Closes on Friday. So we will wait to see what what happens there, but also less. workload because actually we you know, my conversations with them, they, they hold a lot of risk. The, the higher the workload, obviously, the less specific and really targeted the support can be. We've made a commitment that by the. springtime workload will reduce by 25%.
We will make that commitment. And the way in which we'll do that is two ways.
That is, of course subject to ballot action at the moment. Closes on Friday. So we will wait to see what what happens there, but also less. workload because actually we you know, my conversations with them, they, they hold a lot of risk. The, the higher the workload, obviously, the less specific and really targeted the support can be. We've made a commitment that by the. springtime workload will reduce by 25%.
We will make that commitment. And the way in which we'll do that is two ways.
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Lord Foster of Bath
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Lord Foster of Bath
It is closing that gap exactly as you say, Baroness Hughes, in terms of staffing vacancies. And we've got we are ahead of our recruitment targets at the moment. We're we're year on year. We're up 6% in terms of probation officers. So important steps forward, but still much to do over the next 2 to 3 years. And you talk about the extra investment that we've put in in order to do that. I think that investment is important. But at the same time, the investment isn't itself isn't the outcome. The outcome is in the staffing. The outcome is then in in the workloads.
But again, I'm. confident in the progress that that is making. But alongside the staffing, you know, and I can take no credit for this because it happened before I got there. But through our justice AI programme, it is an exemplar across government for the use of actually not particularly high end use of new and emerging technologies. So that we've.
But again, I'm. confident in the progress that that is making. But alongside the staffing, you know, and I can take no credit for this because it happened before I got there. But through our justice AI programme, it is an exemplar across government for the use of actually not particularly high end use of new and emerging technologies. So that we've.
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Lord Foster of Bath
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Lord Foster of Bath
A much higher quality one, being assured that the information is being taken down in the way forward. So actually, I think the future in probation is one to be very is one to be optimistic about. But that is building back from a from a position of weakness. But as I say, better pay, less work so that they can do their their .
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Baroness Hughes of Stretford
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Baroness Hughes of Stretford
And that is. continuing the probation reset. programme and the development of that programme that took place under the Starmer government, which actually means that. offenders on community supervision or on. licence will actually be subjected to active. supervision for only about 16. weeks of their period of. supervision or licence. Now, in response to my colleague Lord dubs, in talking about the third, a third, a third, the progression model, I think you said that when people are released for the last third of their.
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Lord Foster of Bath
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Lord Foster of Bath
Time when the public think they're actually under supervision. I'm grateful for that question. I mean, the the I was particularly talking about the middle phase, but I don't think that that changes materially the conversation. And, you know, the the whole purpose of of what we've done in expanding the licensing tools available and the resourcing that we've put in is so that, you know, you can have a highly.
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Lord Foster of Bath
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Lord Foster of Bath
That's based on risk, that's based on behaviours, that's based on the progression that an individual makes, which might mean that those journeys are different for any two. perpetrators given on what they've done or what they might, what they are, how and how they are. rehabilitating their life. So, you know, I think .
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Lord Foster of Bath
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Lord Foster of Bath
Chancellor, please continue. So that, you know, as I say, I believe that's a feature rather than a bug of of an effective management system. There is, of course, then on top of that, as part of individuals licence conditions, there are likely to be enduring conditions on them that apply, whether, you know, whatever the kind of period of supervision, that means that if they breach them, they're liable to sanction, including recall. And I think that that finds the right balance to get the resources into the right part of the .
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Baroness Hughes of Stretford
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Baroness Hughes of Stretford
That person will be monitored actively by the probation service for less than four months of that order, a 16 weeks? Are you comfortable with that? Do you think that is what the public think probation. supervision is. providing in terms of the surveillance of offenders? You know, I don't think this is well known, but I would have .
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Lord Foster of Bath
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Lord Foster of Bath
Thought there is some concern about that. I think, you know, in all of our kind of public commitments and what the public should expect from us is that individuals who have orders or licence. conditions have an effective level of. supervision to ensure that they are complying with them. And if they're not, that there are sanctions. And I think, you know, I'm very confident in in our resourcing,
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Lord Foster of Bath
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Lord Foster of Bath
Won't be any contact at all with the probation officer. But. But, you know, my answer would be in that second part of of the question, Baroness Hughes, is that that there are still, you know, the public can be assured that there are still the controls on the behaviour. That means that if an individual is not complying with the terms of either their release or their .
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Baroness Hughes of Stretford
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Baroness Hughes of Stretford
That after 16 weeks they have no contact with their probation officer. But we'll leave that. And if I could just add quickly, if I've got time chair, just in terms of the point I made, and it was raised with us by the Chief Inspector of probation yesterday, obviously, the attempt to address the vacancies in the probation service is very welcome. But it does mean and means. already that a very significant proportion of officers are newly.
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Lord Foster of Bath
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Lord Foster of Bath
You know, where you don't have in the same way, middle career individuals for whom earlier career individuals are seeing that modelled good every day. So, of course, you have to find ways to try and build that back. You can't you know, I would argue in a role that requires so much craft and know how and, you know, the ability to engage with, with people like this, it's experience is, you know, amongst the best things anybody can have. And there's no quick route to experience that has to be learned in the role. But at least that process is now kind of underway for those people.
But, you know, we look very closely at the training, both as you say, initially, but also during people's career as well, to make sure they have the skills that they have. So, you know, we I believe we've got training, training arrangements in place, but we'd always look at that if there were if there was more to do. And we work with our staff to hear that from them. And, you know, there is a there's a broader question that perhaps Jay wouldn't be too keen on me going through that. One of the things that I have to work out as well, and there's lots of views across Parliament on this, is that a lot of the challenges in.
probation can be rooted back to very significant reforms in 2014. And. They had a traumatic effect. They were they were kind of reversed later that .
But, you know, we look very closely at the training, both as you say, initially, but also during people's career as well, to make sure they have the skills that they have. So, you know, we I believe we've got training, training arrangements in place, but we'd always look at that if there were if there was more to do. And we work with our staff to hear that from them. And, you know, there is a there's a broader question that perhaps Jay wouldn't be too keen on me going through that. One of the things that I have to work out as well, and there's lots of views across Parliament on this, is that a lot of the challenges in.
probation can be rooted back to very significant reforms in 2014. And. They had a traumatic effect. They were they were kind of reversed later that .
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Lord Foster of Bath
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Lord Foster of Bath
But that baggage is still there. However, I have to deal with this, this sort of this I'm searching for the right word. But this dissonance between the fact that there is still significant eagerness within the workforce, their. representatives within local political leadership around the country, in, in Wales also to actually to go again at the structures in. probation about having a more. So we can have in the spirit of what I said to noble Lord foster earlier, a more place based footprint for probation. How to set that against a fragile workforce structure, whether to whether really.
Because I always say to people, what you really want to do another reorganisation. Are you sure? And almost universally everybody says, yes, it would be loads better. So that's one of the calculations I'm making at the moment. We've got a manifesto commitment on reviewing. Probations arrangements, but all of that I'm conscious and mindful .
Because I always say to people, what you really want to do another reorganisation. Are you sure? And almost universally everybody says, yes, it would be loads better. So that's one of the calculations I'm making at the moment. We've got a manifesto commitment on reviewing. Probations arrangements, but all of that I'm conscious and mindful .
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Lord Foster of Bath
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Lord Foster of Bath
Very happy for you to do so. But but can I just pick up this? I mean, you use this phrase a fragile workforce. And we know it's true in prisons. We know it's true in the probation service. And we'll pick it up later. It's true in other parts of the criminal justice system. This has been known for a very long time. And of course, one can blame previous governments for their. policies and for the lack of funding or whatever. But it seems so often in the. inquiries we've done that. HMP has been somewhat. complacent about all of these issues and should have been pressing governments of the day to take more action.
Are you .
Are you .
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Lord Foster of Bath
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Lord Foster of Bath
At the present time, or do you think they share some of the blame for the. difficulties we're in? No, I mean I wouldn't accept that at all. I mean, for a start, I have full confidence in HMP s, you know, I think that they have for a long time and continue today to make the best out of whatever they have to work with.
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Lord Foster of Bath
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Lord Foster of Bath
It is for politicians to decide on resourcing. And, you know, you mentioned that fragility has been known for a long while, but, you know, these things have been built. These problems have built up over time and will take time to address, but they have to be addressed in resourcing. You know, they can only make their staffing go as far as they have staff to do, whether that's in a prison context or in a probation context, which is why we've made the investments that we have. So but that's our job is my view is to make sure they have that, and then it's their job to operationally make sure it's the right people in the right places, trained in the right way, working in the right way.
But I think I think the challenges have been on the government of the day end rather than rather than theirs,
But I think I think the challenges have been on the government of the day end rather than rather than theirs,
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Lord Foster of Bath
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Lord Foster of Bath
Gives us that roadmap to build back our staff. So, you know , that that's, you know, my my purpose would never I wouldn't obviously do it publicly anyway. My purpose is not always to ask the centre for more money, but we have we we have recognised the gaps in funding that have built up over the austerity years. And we are closing that gap. And you know that that, I think has been a good thing.
Are you.
Are you.
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Lord Foster of Bath
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Lord Foster of Bath
Is sufficient to deal with all of these . issues in the probation service, which is what we're currently talking about. Well, absolutely. Now, that doesn't mean there won't be challenges along the way, but I'm confident that I have the. resources to do that long build back of the probation service. And, you know, we will continue to be creative in the ways in which we spend departmental allocations to enhance that.
But, you know, as I say, you know, I believe we've we've done well in those settlements.
But, you know, as I say, you know, I believe we've we've done well in those settlements.
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Lord Foster of Bath
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Lord Foster of Bath
Come through in terms of the staffing. But granted, that's a lagging indicator. Your your. predecessors clearly then were also confident that they had sufficient funding. And yet we're talking about currently the probation service, where. notwithstanding new people coming forward and you're doing work on that, the number of people leaving the . service currently exceeds the number of people who are entering it. Well, retention, you know, is obviously as crucial as recruitment is. That's why, you know, predecessors and indeed myself are trying to make some very significant step. forwards in pay because, you know, we hear of alternatives in the criminal justice system or beyond that, people leave in step two instead.
So making sure a as I say, that. recognition through the pay packet, but also in workload too. So people feel they're able to do the job that they signed up to do. That's our future there. But again, I'm in a resourcing position to be able to .
So making sure a as I say, that. recognition through the pay packet, but also in workload too. So people feel they're able to do the job that they signed up to do. That's our future there. But again, I'm in a resourcing position to be able to .
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Baroness Buscombe
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Baroness Buscombe
Post the introduction of, I will call it the early release scheme. The impact has been devastating. We are. concerned very much about the systems here. It's not necessarily about the money, the lack of funds. It's not about the nature of the estate. It's actually about doing the right thing. One thing that actually really shocked all of us in.
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Baroness Buscombe
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Baroness Buscombe
Scheme to try and fit people tags before they leave prison. But why do we need a pilot scheme? What is happening to those people when they're wandering out of prison? Take foreign nationals who haven't got their. deportation papers. Where do you think they're going? They're not going to some home and waiting to be tagged for a couple of weeks. They're going back into the home of organised crime.
So could you please give us some. confidence that this will not just be a pilot, that people will ? All people leaving prison .
So could you please give us some. confidence that this will not just be a pilot, that people will ? All people leaving prison .
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Lord Foster of Bath
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Lord Foster of Bath
Be tagged. That's just one question. Yeah. No, no but but but a crucial one, I would argue. So I am aware as the committee are and again subject of multiple reports from multiple different committees of this place and beyond over the years of the chequered history in tagging. And I think electronic monitoring is a very, very important part of the control process for people who have left prison but are still under licence. So in order to try and address the failings at each part of the chain. So what we've done is, first of all, for the first time brought a presumption of tagging in.
Now, that's not quite the same as what you've said there, Baroness Buscombe, that every single. person is tagged. There are.
Now, that's not quite the same as what you've said there, Baroness Buscombe, that every single. person is tagged. There are.
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Lord Foster of Bath
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Lord Foster of Bath
Whether it's healthcare contexts, there are challenges, particularly around where people have, you know, making sure people have fixed and solid homes to go to that. If particularly one of their requirements is, is, is a curfew, then you need to be able to install that kit at a home. But nevertheless, I am confident and this will come through the stats releases in the normal way that we will. demonstrate that in, in the progression model kind of era, as it were, we are seeing significant increases. Again, I promise two things. One, a presumption of tagging, two, the biggest expansion of tagging that we've ever had.
And I'm confident when the data is verified, that we will have demonstrated those things. So firstly, it's tagging order.
And I'm confident when the data is verified, that we will have demonstrated those things. So firstly, it's tagging order.
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Lord Foster of Bath
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Lord Foster of Bath
The tagging order is only as good as the tagging goes on a leg. I totally accept that. Again, the performance is increasing in that space, but is not, I would argue, where we want it to be. Now I have to say the supplier is broadly making well, the supplier is making their key performance. indicators are challenge tends to be on the individual not being present. And then that takes us back to the recall space that I mentioned earlier.
However, you are right, very elegantly Baroness Buscombe on the answer to that.
However, you are right, very elegantly Baroness Buscombe on the answer to that.
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Lord Foster of Bath
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Lord Foster of Bath
Which is to do more at source. And we have had the pilot, the pilot, you know, I think, has borne out perhaps what you said. You may have been obvious immediately. There are reasons, I think, perhaps why that's not quite fair. But but it is proven nevertheless to be effective and more effective at making sure tags get on legs in a timely manner. So my, my, my work now is to make that much more the norm rather than at the moment we're in, I think it's half, half a dozen prisons at the moment. So, you know, I am committed to expanding that because I think that that's a really important part of it.
I would say, though, just for the for the fullness of the debate, it's not a panacea to tag at source. particularly because, as I say, if an individual with an element of their license condition is, which would be a relatively standard one, is that they are at home, say. between 10 p.m. and 6 a.m. you can tag them on their release, you know, as they walk out of HMP Nottingham or wherever. But you will still need to visit and install that kit in their home where they're supposed to be at that time too.
So it's not an end state, but I would absolutely share your .
I would say, though, just for the for the fullness of the debate, it's not a panacea to tag at source. particularly because, as I say, if an individual with an element of their license condition is, which would be a relatively standard one, is that they are at home, say. between 10 p.m. and 6 a.m. you can tag them on their release, you know, as they walk out of HMP Nottingham or wherever. But you will still need to visit and install that kit in their home where they're supposed to be at that time too.
So it's not an end state, but I would absolutely share your .
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Baroness Buscombe
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Baroness Buscombe
Is much better, and that's why we're going to seek to do an awful lot more of it. Can I just ask, so what happens when people don't have a particular home? They don't have an abode that you know, you can rely on. So I hope is your is your department really looking into this? I mean, what is happening with. people who we know just disappearing into the ether? I mean, are they .
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Lord Foster of Bath
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Lord Foster of Bath
Warned, surely, if this is happening. I mean, I think it's important to, to, to be clear about how important this homelessness element is. It's a key commitment of the Prime Minister and the government. I am, you know, and my department are not going to be the reason for failure there. Every person leaving our custody under our license, if they do not have housing to go to, is given an offer of accommodation. It is better when that's through the local authority. processes because, you know, whether it's through housing aid or whatever, that's, you know, going to be the best port of call for them.
That starts now, you know, working with local authorities to start that process. As I said earlier, multiple months before leaving prison rather than on the day or tipping up at housing aid then. But if not, we have emergency accommodation, our so-called accommodation, which can offer up to 84 days for people. But there's still a challenge if they're going into that type of accommodation. As to whether the, you know, the curfew kit being committed, kit being installed is going into the right place. So that's the challenge there. And there are, of course, are there are approved premises as well for those who are, perhaps we're most concerned about the behaviours that that might be a condition of their licence that they go to one of those.
I visited one of those on Monday. So you know that housing offer is building up. I have to say, the group of people that I worry the most about in the criminal justice system with respect to. homelessness are not people under licence because we know who they are. We know the conditions under which they have to live their lives, and if they don't, there is a backstop of their recall to prison. Some of the challenge actually comes for individuals where we have a sudden change of circumstance.
That starts now, you know, working with local authorities to start that process. As I said earlier, multiple months before leaving prison rather than on the day or tipping up at housing aid then. But if not, we have emergency accommodation, our so-called accommodation, which can offer up to 84 days for people. But there's still a challenge if they're going into that type of accommodation. As to whether the, you know, the curfew kit being committed, kit being installed is going into the right place. So that's the challenge there. And there are, of course, are there are approved premises as well for those who are, perhaps we're most concerned about the behaviours that that might be a condition of their licence that they go to one of those.
I visited one of those on Monday. So you know that housing offer is building up. I have to say, the group of people that I worry the most about in the criminal justice system with respect to. homelessness are not people under licence because we know who they are. We know the conditions under which they have to live their lives, and if they don't, there is a backstop of their recall to prison. Some of the challenge actually comes for individuals where we have a sudden change of circumstance.
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Lord Foster of Bath
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Lord Foster of Bath
Who has been in our. custody and then goes to court and gets a sentence of time served and walks out the door because they have no obligation to interact with our. services or the councils. You know, if they've been inside, then they probably have lost their tenancy. They may have had breakdown of family relationships. That cohort is at risk. Similarly. individuals who go and perhaps have a bag packed and then are acquitted, they can walk out. There's no kind of ongoing. commitment or commitment to engage with ourselves. So we're working very hard with local authorities to get scoop that cohort of people to make sure that they have, you know, that they've got .
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Lord Foster of Bath
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Lord Foster of Bath
That a large chunk of that money would be spent on. housing to to assist with the problem of homelessness, of people who leave prison. Can you tell us what amount of the. 700,000 is being. allocated to housing? I can't give you the figure because I don't know off the top of my head, but I can say that that's the money we've used to enhance our our cash offer, that that emergency housing offer that is now, of course, being augmented by.
significant money that's coming through. Mhclg on housing more generally for vulnerable groups.
significant money that's coming through. Mhclg on housing more generally for vulnerable groups.
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Baroness Berridge
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Baroness Berridge
Baroness Berridge. Thank you, Lord Chancellor. The role of Lord Chancellor has changed a lot over the last 20 years. In this issue of tagging, though, we have an unusual situation, perhaps ironic, that Serco are currently being investigated by the Serious Fraud Office in relation to the contract. Now, how do you, as Lord Chancellor, handle when you're supposed to uphold the rule of law and now you are in charge of a department in criminal justice where your contractor is under investigation?
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Lord Foster of Bath
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Lord Foster of Bath
I another aspect of the rule of law is the binding nature of a contract. You know, these are contracts that we inherited that still have I think they run to the end of this decade. So, you know, of course we will. We will live up to commitments made in contracts by predecessors. My focus has been to get the best out of that.
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Baroness Berridge
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Baroness Berridge
This moment in time. My job is to do is to get the best from that deal. Just one very quick follow up. But if there is, it seems there's allegations of fraud here, obviously binding contracts. You know, you can't be fraudulent. You've reached your contract. So for you, as in that position, if there's a. finding or charges that they've been.
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Lord Foster of Bath
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Lord Foster of Bath
If we were contracting with people who, in the course of their contract had been found to commit fraud, as you say, I would expect there would be a way out of that contract, and I would be keen to do so. We would never want to to contract with fraudulent individuals. Frankly, whether or not I was, you know, the upholding the rule of law is as Lord Chancellor, but as a government principle, as a .
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Lord Foster of Bath
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Lord Foster of Bath
Including in the way that you speak of, that you can get better value for the taxpayer and better. operability of whatever the contract is like. That would be a future stage process for us because we are in a contract at the moment, but with every contract that would come through my department or in any aspect of the.
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Lord Foster of Bath
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Lord Foster of Bath
How such a model could operate. Not at this point, no. At the moment, should it not be? Well, I think it might be a little bit early. And given how really very important this this element of our system is to, to, to things at the moment. You know, clearly electronic monitoring is a really big part of the progression model. I think it's right that we focus on making it work at the .
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Baroness Bertin
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Baroness Bertin
Road onto what else we might do. Baroness Burton, good morning. Lord Chancellor, could I just bring back some of the themes that we've been talking about this morning into the context of the government's commitment to halve violence against women and girls that you'd be very aware of. I mean, early release scheme, you know, progression model, whatever you want to call it. I think it's been devastating, really, for lots of people in this area who have been terrified that perpetrators of domestic abuse have been released. I don't think they should ever have been eligible for under the early release scheme.
And I just .
And I just .
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Lord Foster of Bath
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Lord Foster of Bath
You know, you will have may well have heard what the Prime Minister said and what I've said, Baroness Burton, about that. We would like to have gone further in our carve outs from from the Sentencing Act and particularly with regards to domestic abuse. There are some operational difficulties with that in that there's not a kind of a single offence, but I wouldn't want to use that as a as a deflection from the fact that, you know, we were able to make carve outs around people who've committed child sex offences, rape.
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Baroness Bertin
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Baroness Bertin
Would have liked to in being able to include domestic abuse offences. Also, could I appreciate that, that. acknowledgement because I think it has had a big effect. But in terms of, you know, the high risk cohorts and you talk about controlled supervision, is there is the government doing work on these pilots whereby there could be a much more proactive. monitoring of certain cohorts, and I would put perpetrators domestic abuse in that cohort that if they break their. geographical if they go into an area they shouldn't be going into, there's an immediate trigger. So there is much more sort of safeguarding for victims, because at the moment there's a bit of a false sense of safety because really, if they break that, we learned yesterday and I hadn't completely acknowledged this or realise this, that if you do that out of the.
9 to 5 hours that's just dealt with, you know, nine the next morning and you just have to do a nine, nine nine call. That's not really what I .
9 to 5 hours that's just dealt with, you know, nine the next morning and you just have to do a nine, nine nine call. That's not really what I .
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Lord Foster of Bath
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Lord Foster of Bath
Then that's the accountability. What you speak of. There are kind of more lifetime. modelling like that is possible in quite a small number of cases with where the harm is highest, like, and whether we could go further than that. You know, that is something that would be of interest to us. I can't see that we could go whole cohort on. That would be my view. But, you know, the key thing for me is that, and this was the commitment I made over the summer, was that we would have very .
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Baroness Bertin
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Baroness Bertin
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Lord Foster of Bath
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Lord Foster of Bath
Because we're trying to change the balance so that whereas at the moment individuals live around the conditions of the perpetrators, the perpetrators should live live around the lives of the of the survivor. So we've been able to do that. You will know of the investment that we put in to make sure that we could, including a dedicated national support line, including extra help for local services to on top of the. 550 million over three years for victim services. So I think I think that that's been a good process. You know, there's been a lot for us to do in terms of making sure our.
communications are trauma informed. And, you know, we've not done well, I would argue over the first part of this year, but we've done much better over the second part of this year on that. It's not it's never a kind of fixed end state, but I think the quality of .
communications are trauma informed. And, you know, we've not done well, I would argue over the first part of this year, but we've done much better over the second part of this year on that. It's not it's never a kind of fixed end state, but I think the quality of .
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Baroness Bertin
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Baroness Bertin
Engagement has been much better. But obviously the proof of that has to be in the victim experience. And just finally on this, can could you also sort of give an assurance that in the sort of pilots and the possibility of tagging in court , potentially, or tagging before people leave, you know, this problem whereby as we've discussed before, people just go off and sometimes the tags don't even get on them. You know, those those perpetrators .
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Baroness Bertin
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Baroness Bertin
Around threat, risk and harm in conjunction with policing. Thank you. Just a very final supplementary, if I may, on a completely different issue, I do want to thank acknowledge the Ministry of Justice work on. upgrading harmful porn laws happen this week, and I'm very grateful to you and your ministers. You've the Department have done an excellent job on that, but they need to be.
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Baroness Bertin
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Baroness Bertin
And particularly in terms of, you know, search engines, I mean, you can still do a Google search and find porn sites dedicated to rape porn. Now, that's been illegal for a long time. And I just want to, to know your view and to get reassurance that the. government is going to properly enforce these kinds of laws so that not necessarily. criminalisation of the individual, it is about .
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Lord Foster of Bath
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Lord Foster of Bath
Preparation for this session. But the the changes, even within seven years in in this space are breathtaking. I think about my own youth and the things that are normal now. And, you know, you referenced the offences with regards to, say, strangulation or. suffocation that are now, you know, through the routes, through these routes and pornography being a primary one of being. normalised as as relationship behaviour, you know, I think should give us all pause and take a breath. And I know there's been public commentary and I know as British people , not always brilliant at talking about this, but we must accept that these things, as you say, aren't right and that we ought to address them.
However, I would accept that that only matters because there's no point. If we pass those laws, introduce them, go home, feel good about ourselves. But there are individuals still finding that content just as easily. You know, the the search engine piece is a is a challenge. Obviously, the Online Safety Act provides the frame for that.
However, I would accept that that only matters because there's no point. If we pass those laws, introduce them, go home, feel good about ourselves. But there are individuals still finding that content just as easily. You know, the the search engine piece is a is a challenge. Obviously, the Online Safety Act provides the frame for that.
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Lord Foster of Bath
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Lord Foster of Bath
Well, my department and DCMs have an important lens in that. But then through Ofcom, I know they're working very closely with the search engines to try and I don't know whether Whac-a-mole is the right characterization, but that way of trying to close down those gaps when they are found, you know, because the intent of the law is clear and it has .
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Baroness Bertin
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Baroness Bertin
That way. But a digital and online space is difficult and requires that iterative approach. But I would just say, and this would be the final point, I promise, chair, I think the government must be very aggressive about this because ultimately, you know, of course, nefarious porn sites may do whatever they want. Legal porn sites should comply, but it is all completely ridiculous. If you can find through a search, search in, you know, the privacy of your own home straight into content that isn't behind an .
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Lord Bach
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Lord Bach
Is on us to demonstrate that that's effective. I accept that. Thank you Lord. Thank you, Lord Chancellor. Welcome. I want to change change the topic just slightly here and ask you about civil legal aid and particular part of civil legal aid that I would argue was. decimated by the Laspo act, which you you all know of well. namely legal advice or help or, and even. representation in the areas of law such as housing, debt, welfare.
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Lord Bach
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Lord Bach
Hundreds and. thousands of people can no longer get that legal. advice that they need at some stage, perhaps in their lives. Maybe they'll only need it once, but they need it. I'm sure you'll agree that this is actually a genuine rule of law issue. Simply, if there's no access to. justice for people, where is the equality before the law? So I would argue that it needs government to keep acting in this area.
What do you intend to do to remedy what I think is a kind of blotch on our legal system at the .
What do you intend to do to remedy what I think is a kind of blotch on our legal system at the .
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Lord Foster of Bath
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Lord Foster of Bath
And I would accept that characterization. And I know the committee had similar conversations with Minister Sackman when she was in in front of you. And, you know, for me, there's two phases to this. There is the very, you know, in very short order, getting more money into the system in the way that you speak about love back. But I do think we need to go a little bit further than that. That's a good that's an immediate and necessary and immediate response that kind of couldn't wait.
But we need to. rebuild now this.
But we need to. rebuild now this.
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Lord Foster of Bath
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Lord Foster of Bath
AI, you can go back and say, this happened to me at work. Is this right? And the and the chatbot will say, oh no, that sounds terrible. Would you like me to write you an employment tribunal claim like 30 pages, whatever. So these behaviors are changing. And the tent poles that we used to have, you know, I think of Nottingham Law Centre, fantastic people. But, you know, and this is a big city with big legal school, law schools. Excellent. You know, young people who come through there, great kind of record in that space. But how hard they've struggled in recent years and continue to struggle.
I also think of our advice services and how they've struggled. Like every bit of that ecosystem has whittled away. And yes, so yes, we've got to get more money in as we're doing at the moment, but we have to take, I think, a whole system approach to this to say we're about to have changes in behavior and changes in volumes of behavior. How do we get the right decisions for people at the right places? How do you get early dispute resolution? How do you get brief advice? So we've you know, we've innovated advice now say our online platform so that can help people.
But what else will we need? You know, we've put. £25 million into legal support services. Some of that kind of will filter through. But what do we need to have good early.
I also think of our advice services and how they've struggled. Like every bit of that ecosystem has whittled away. And yes, so yes, we've got to get more money in as we're doing at the moment, but we have to take, I think, a whole system approach to this to say we're about to have changes in behavior and changes in volumes of behavior. How do we get the right decisions for people at the right places? How do you get early dispute resolution? How do you get brief advice? So we've you know, we've innovated advice now say our online platform so that can help people.
But what else will we need? You know, we've put. £25 million into legal support services. Some of that kind of will filter through. But what do we need to have good early.
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Lord Foster of Bath
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Lord Foster of Bath
Good kind of community law centres, as we would know then into the more formal parts of the system so that people are getting their best advice as early as possible, their best outcome as soon as possible. And at the moment we don't have that. So we're getting the money into it to keep the thing afloat. But then, you know, my enthusiasm and Sarah's enthusiasm is to then sort of rebuild that model as a whole, rather than .
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Lord Bach
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Lord Bach
Interventions that may well be less than the sum of its parts. One supplementary. Very glad to hear that that the view on that I mean, you mentioned Nottingham Law Centre. I'm I should declare I mean, it's a non remunerative interest. As chair of the newly formed Leicester Law Centre. But Law Centre's going through, as are many people in the whole legal.
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Lord Foster of Bath
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Lord Foster of Bath
Position much, much worse. Do you agree? I would, and, you know, there's, as I say, the reason why we're trying to get investment in now whilst we look at longer term kind of ecosystem building, that's to try and prevent that loss of things that you won't be able to bring back when you'll need them, when you need them now, but you need them later to count .
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Lord Anderson of Ipswich
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Lord Anderson of Ipswich
Thank you very much. Thank you, Lord Anderson. Thank you. I got a question about judges. The Lady Chief Justice said in May of this year, and I'm quoting today, it is naturally assumed that judicial appointments will be made. independently and on merit. That transformation is no small thing, and the continued integrity of our justice system and the public's faith in that integrity depends on it. Looking at what happened relatively.
recently in places like Poland and Hungary, when judicial appointments were highly.
recently in places like Poland and Hungary, when judicial appointments were highly.
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Lord Foster of Bath
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Lord Foster of Bath
Judges entirely to yourself and your successors? No. Not tempted to do that to any degree. You know, I think the the separation between the judiciary and politicians is absolutely crucial. You know, it is vital to our. constitutional settlement that ensures all of our freedoms. It's actually as well, you know, the I talked in the beginning about being a legal jurisdiction of choice. Part of that reason is that people often transacting their business thousands and thousands of miles from this country, know that in this country, the person that would be advocating resolving their difference, making that.
judgement is someone that is free of political interference, free to do their jobs properly on the merits of the case. And we should want to safeguard that. I mean, on the specific point on on the on the jack, I mean, obviously under .
judgement is someone that is free of political interference, free to do their jobs properly on the merits of the case. And we should want to safeguard that. I mean, on the specific point on on the on the jack, I mean, obviously under .
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Lord Foster of Bath
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Lord Foster of Bath
It would be not in anybody's interest for me. Know all of my good character and good conscience and and, you know, forward thinking, all of those trustable features which I hope I embody to give me that degree of power over and over the system. It's a terrible idea. So, you know, I know there is a temptation across the political world in certain parts of the political spectrum, to start to challenge this principle. They'll never see it from me because actually, as I say, this .
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Baroness Berridge
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Baroness Berridge
Baroness Berridge, thank you, Lord Chancellor. We know that the Ministry of Justice has recently launched a recruitment for magistrates. The committee went to a couple of the courts and I had the pleasure of going to Southwark Crown Court to. But to hear that the courts in. London are not running at. capacity because they're at. For a number of reasons, but including. There aren't enough judges.
So how are you ensuring that the other crucial court .
So how are you ensuring that the other crucial court .
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Lord Foster of Bath
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Lord Foster of Bath
By by the middle of that decade, sorry, a little bit later, but by, by, by the low, I think it's. 2022 that had fallen to 12,000. So that, you know, we think about capacity. challenges that are not inevitable is the point I'm seeking to make. So we are in a significant programme now of building that back. We're up to somewhere. between 15 and 16,000 on magistrate recruitment is actually going really well. People want to do this. It's interesting actually, that, you know, over half of people think that they would be good at it, but then they fall away because they think either they need legal, legal training that they don't have or that they don't have time.
So trying to bust some of those myths is being is an effective way of getting more people into it. So, you know, more is, is absolutely crucial in this space is, is my judgment.
So trying to bust some of those myths is being is an effective way of getting more people into it. So, you know, more is, is absolutely crucial in this space is, is my judgment.
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Lord Foster of Bath
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Lord Foster of Bath
Think it is across London is limited by the lack of judges. I have to say, I've less concerned over over judicial capacity, though I will follow that example through. You know, we've as a government, we've uncapped sitting days because of, you know, to try to deal with the with the waiting times that there are. And, you know, we've been able to the judiciary have been able to overperform even what we thought we'd be able to do. So that capacity is adding. I think that's a good thing that you make a very important point, Baroness Berridge, about those other people who end up who are in courtrooms, because, as colleagues will know from our times when we go to visit them, it is a it's a real a mixture of incredibly important roles that all have to be doing their bit at the right time.
Yes, there's the person sat behind the bench and the skills and the training they need. There's also, of course, the crucial role of legal advisers in magistrates courts. And, you know, we're putting extra investment in in order to increase the numbers of those. We're going to need more of those. But also, as you talk about clerks and the roles they have to do to make sure the. administrative parts of the courts are going well. Ushers actually a really good part. I suspect over the over the centuries, there's not been many conversations about court ushers in this place.
And this is a good time to shine some light on them. But those people who make what is can be a tense and traumatic environment for individuals. Make that world go round by dealing with. professionalism and dealing with humanity, of getting people to the right places. So, you know, we want to make sure all of those things I, you know, have confidence, particularly in the clerks level, the ushers level to that, that we've got the capacity we need.
Yes, there's the person sat behind the bench and the skills and the training they need. There's also, of course, the crucial role of legal advisers in magistrates courts. And, you know, we're putting extra investment in in order to increase the numbers of those. We're going to need more of those. But also, as you talk about clerks and the roles they have to do to make sure the. administrative parts of the courts are going well. Ushers actually a really good part. I suspect over the over the centuries, there's not been many conversations about court ushers in this place.
And this is a good time to shine some light on them. But those people who make what is can be a tense and traumatic environment for individuals. Make that world go round by dealing with. professionalism and dealing with humanity, of getting people to the right places. So, you know, we want to make sure all of those things I, you know, have confidence, particularly in the clerks level, the ushers level to that, that we've got the capacity we need.
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Baroness Berridge
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Baroness Berridge
Doing that. And we definitely need more magistrates, too. I mean, I think we we were there in the context of an inquiry we're doing on the experience of jurors. So I think when that comes out, you will get gleaned that evidence as to what's happening with the churn of ushers. But on that point, when we were there, one of the points made to us about jurors is the fact that since.
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Baroness Berridge
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Baroness Berridge
Are still only given. £64.95 a day. It's all paid in arrears. And people turning up at Southwark Crown Court might, at the end of the first day of serving on a jury, have to. confess that they have not got the money to get there the next day, so they hold cash. And so I know that finance is a type, but please, could you take away whether or not there is a way of paying in. advance sums of money? Because I think that for someone compelled to be there, not raising those rates and not enabling them to have the, the, you know, to have to say that .
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Lord Foster of Bath
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Lord Foster of Bath
I don't think is acceptable. So someone compelled to be. So could you look at that again, please? I mean, you know, because I would accept that the rates haven't kept pace with with the cost of living. You know, obviously the maximum allowance does go up. after ten days, I think it is. But, you know, I certainly will look very closely at the work that the committee does. We want you know, as you say, there is compulsion.
It is vital.
It is vital.
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Lord Foster of Bath
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Lord Foster of Bath
Know, we will look very closely to make sure the experience is as good as possible. Thank you. Thank you very much, Lord Chancellor, you probably can't answer this question, but if not, I'd be grateful if you could go away and give us a response. But section four of the civil Partnerships, Marriages and Deaths.
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Lord Foster of Bath
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Lord Foster of Bath
I we stick by our view that we have real concern. There's evidence of that in our recent report, for instance, on fires in. prisons where commitments were made, that automatic fire detection would be in place in all of the Non-private. prisons by 2027. That's now been, we've been told, cannot be achieved. And yet , when we've asked for some. alternative date or at least some evidence of a planned.
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Lord Foster of Bath
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Lord Foster of Bath
Again, do you think that's acceptable? Well, you know, I think the. responsibility lies with myself rather than. Hmpps would be my judgment. I certainly couldn't accept a characterization that that reflects. complacency on on their part. You know, there is a challenge here. We have a old and. underinvested in prison estate. I think that is a matter now of agreed fact across the political spectrum. And now we have to balance that with the fact that we also have an estate that is very high on capacity, that if you turn off vast numbers of cells, which is always the quickest way to do Parliament is not a bad comparator in that sense.
We are doing our fire safety works, the
We are doing our fire safety works, the
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Vast numbers of cells, which is always the quickest way to do. Parliament is not a bad comparator in that sense. We are doing our fire safety works, the very, very long road, and that that if you, you know, turn that we need to have that capacity, otherwise the kind of the system falls over. Now we are putting in, you know, lots of money into the system, another. £275 million this year for fire safety. It's exceptionally important. But, you know, it has to be done in a way that means we have a a robust estate as well.
And but as I say, you know, colleagues will have their judgment as to whether that's .
And but as I say, you know, colleagues will have their judgment as to whether that's .
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Lord Foster of Bath
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Lord Foster of Bath
Right or wrong, but that's me. That's not that's not the leadership of of HMP. We'll come on to where. responsibility lies in a second. But I just I just. reflect on what you've just said. You have told us that one of the reasons why it is. difficult to. achieve automatic fire detection in all prisons is because of issues around. overcrowding and moving prisoners around and so on.
Well.
Well.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Lord Chancellor was well known. Well, okay. Well, again, I accept that characterization. I mean, I think that that ultimately the. responsibility for coming forward with the plans to address it and at the same time meet our capacity issue, I would still say comes back to myself, but which is why we've moved off what I think probably wasn't a deliverable timeline onto, you know, greater. flexibility so that we can .
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Lord Foster of Bath
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Lord Foster of Bath
Not least because they are covered by crown immunity. And that therefore makes it very difficult for anybody to be prosecuted. And if you're taking the. responsibility on yourself, it's actually very difficult for anybody to take a prosecution against you because of crown immunity. So we do strongly suggest, as a committee that you should review whether or not prisons should be covered by crown immunity, so that we have greater knowledge of where.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Responsibility lies when things go wrong. What's your view? I mean, I couldn't certainly, in this moment of all moments, think that there's not enough scrutiny on this issue. It certainly feels like the scrutiny in this moment. But there's also scrutiny when the independent inspector publishes their reports, whether into individual programs or individual prisons or thematic ones, obviously, you know, so I believe there is absolutely .
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Clusters of. prisons with the. footprints for elected mayors and directly elected combined authorities? Because, you may know, when I was deputy mayor of Greater Manchester and our Prime Minister was the mayor, I managed to persuade. And it's to his great credit, Robert Buckland, who was then in your. position to give Greater. Manchester its own regional. director and regional probation service, and not subsume it in the original plans for one for the North West. That made a huge. difference in terms of some of the objectives of the criminal justice system in terms of. rehabilitating offenders, because the links, therefore.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Health employment. practices was so much easier. And you might want to look at the. experience of of that. Now, I realize that the the. landscape for local government. reorganisation is not clear. And there won't be directly elected mayors everywhere. But in terms of your own emphasis on the importance of place, would you give some thought to that? If you do .
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Embark on any. reorganisation of probation? Yes, I mean it it's interesting actually, Baroness Hughes and obviously very, very kind of elegant timing that we're having this conversation. But when I, when I talk to people about and I say what you really would be, you think it would be in the interests of service for a review and for change of arrangements. What people all point to is the Manchester model, as they call it.
So again, there's a lot of learning going. I'm going to.
So again, there's a lot of learning going. I'm going to.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Sometimes on mental health grounds, to silence things. Well, you know, I think this has been a source of of conversation engagement with Parliament for a long time, but brought into relief recently, particularly the way in which powerful men used the system in order to, to silence people. We've already made some changes, for.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Which is a step forward. There's an important private member's bill coming through on Slapps as well, that we're working closely with, with John Whittingdale on to hopefully get that to something that Parliament can agree on , too. So, yes, I think there's a lot of concern in this space, and we want to make sure that those things aren't being used. inappropriately and that the legal regime that .
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