European Union (Future Relationship) Bill

Debate between Baroness Barker and Lord Newby

3rd reading & 2nd reading & Committee negatived & 2nd reading (Hansard) & 2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords & 3rd reading (Hansard) & 3rd reading (Hansard): House of Lords & Committee negatived (Hansard) & Committee negatived (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 30th December 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Newby (LD)]

My Lords, as I indicated at Second Reading and in the light of the arguments I advanced then, I beg to move the amendment standing in my name on the Order Paper and wish to test the opinion of the House.

[The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Barker) (LD)]

The original Question was that this Bill do now pass since when an amendment has been moved by the noble Lord, Lord Newby, as set out on the Order Paper. The Question I now have to put is that the amendment in the name of the noble Lord be agreed to. The Question will be decided by a remote Division; I instruct the clerk to start it.

Small Charitable Donations Bill

Debate between Baroness Barker and Lord Newby

Tuesday 18th December 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, I am extremely grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken in this debate. I am very pleased that we decided to postpone the Leveson debate because if we had not there would be about 50 people grumbling at the fact that I will now attempt to answer the questions that speakers in the debate raised.

One concern everybody has raised is about whether the scheme is too difficult to administer and overbureaucratic, to which there are several answers. The key thing is that, at one level, it is very straightforward to operate. Charities are already filling in forms for gift aid. Under the scheme they simply have to tick a box to say that they want to claim additional cash under this additional scheme and they will get it. They do not have to fill in another form. If they are operating out of a community building, they have to give the address of the building. We are not talking about a long and hugely complicated form at all. It is very straightforward. That is one of the key things that HMRC is trying to do. It has to strike a balance between something relatively simple and something that is not open to fraud.

I confess that I started my professional life working in Customs and Excise, helping to devise schemes to help small shopkeepers account for VAT. There was a particularly assiduous Scotsman in our group who spent all his time in a corner trying to work out how shopkeepers could defraud Customs and Excise. We ended up with really quite complicated schemes as a result. They were designed to be simple, but because people were very worried about fraud—and you were talking about, as it were, real money then—we ended up with seven schemes which were designed to be simple but none of them was quite as simple as we had hoped. That is a danger of which HMRC have over the years become more aware, and why the scheme is designed to be as straightforward as possible.

Obviously, charities are not going to look at the Act, but at the guidance from HMRC. As a number of people have said, the guidance itself will be extremely difficult. HMRC is planning to produce two levels of guidance. First, a starter level will set out the rules as simply as possible; most charities will only need to use that, which will supplement the very easy form. Secondly, detailed guidance will explain how the law works to larger charities and charity representatives who want that degree of detail. HMRC will also help and advise charity representatives who want to develop their own guidance; we are thinking here possibly of the churches as an example.

A number of noble Lords asked about consultation with the charitable sector. HMRC undertook a public consultation on the detail of the scheme that ran from March until May this year. It was eight weeks long and 83 organisations and individuals responded to it. HMRC also held meetings with groups of interested people during the consultation period. It has been consulting on the detailed proposals with some charity representatives throughout the development of the legislation, including the Charity Finance Group and the Institute of Fundraising.

Over the summer, the Bill was used as a pilot for the public reading stage in another place. This is a new approach, a supplementary consultation stage where members of the public and organisations can give detailed comments on the draft Bill via the web. Sadly— I think it is rather sad—only 23 individuals and organisations responded to the public reading stage, and a number of them had already been involved in the consultation. It was a useful additional scheme, but whether or not it really added a huge amount is slightly doubtful.

The noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, and the right reverend Prelate raised the question of digital donations. The Government said in the Autumn Statement that we are examining whether the administration of Gift Aid can be improved to reflect new ways of giving money to charity, particularly digital giving. Obviously, young people in particular are going to give their money digitally; there is no doubt about that. As we are finding in many parts of legislation, the Government are, if anything, struggling to keep up with reality just as the digital revolution is changing the way we do everything.

We are starting this scheme with cash because we feel that that way we can make it work relatively easily, but we are going to look at digital giving and at digitising Gift Aid administration more generally. It is only a matter of time before we do all these things but, while people are currently worried about some of the complexities of the Bill, we are keen not to make them more complex at this stage and at least get going with straightforward cash donations.

Noble Lords asked about the publicity for the new scheme. HMRC is planning a four-stage publicity campaign over the next few months to alert charities to the new system and donation scheme. As well as media publicity, HMRC is planning to write in the new year to every charity that has claimed Gift Aid within the past three years to tell them about this scheme and about Gift Aid online. HMRC has also asked the charity representative bodies to help it spread the message.

The noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, asked me to commit myself to a review. The Government have committed themselves to a review. That is the good news. Sad to say, from the noble Baroness’s point of view, but entirely appropriately, the review is to be after three years. This is a relatively standard period for review after a scheme has come in and we definitely plan to do that. In the mean time, HMRC publishes national statistics on the cost of charitable tax relief three times a year. Once up and running, HMRC will publish details about the Gift Aid small donation scheme. These figures will be national statistics.

HMRC does not publish details of fraud rates, although as it received about £10 million of fraudulent Gift Aid claims last year, it is not an insignificant amount. Although, obviously, the last thing in the mind of the vast bulk of charities is fraud, there are people who will exploit any scheme if they think that they can do well out of it.

The noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, asked a number of questions. He asked about the detailed wording in the Bill on Clause 2(2), which refers to “2 consecutive … years”. Clause 2(2) does that because charities will need to make a Gift Aid claim at least every other year. The qualifying period is now two years, so it would be inappropriate to allow a charity a gap of two years or more in order to do so. I hope that that clarifies the position.

[Baroness Barker]

My Lords, could the Minister write to some of us to explain that point a little further?

[Lord Newby]

I would be only too pleased to write to all noble Lords here. Basically, it is the interaction of the general Gift Aid scheme and this particular element of it; but I will write to clarify that point absolutely.

The noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, asked again about the cost and whether HMRC would be proportionate, not heavy-handed, and efficient. He will not be surprised to hear me say that, of course, that is what HMRC plans to be. I hope it will be. My experience, working in HRMC—or Customs and Excise as it was—was that it did a lot of things extremely efficiently, and every now and then it did something which was less than efficient. It was the less-than-efficient examples which tended to get most of the publicity. I know that the relevant section of HMRC understands the point that the noble Lord is making. The Government are not setting up this scheme in order not to hand out the cash. We are setting up the scheme because we are very keen that it is successful and is able to help charities in this way.

The noble Lord asked about foundations and why they are in a position that is different from that of individuals. I am tempted to say, “Because they are not individuals”, but I will happily write to him with some of the background as to their tax treatment, which I absolutely understand is different from that of an individual.

He asked whether a two-year period was necessary, because a charity must already have been through the registration process, including the “fit and proper person” test. The test helps to ensure that charities, community amateur sports clubs and other organisations entitled to charity tax reliefs are not managed or controlled by individuals who might misuse the tax relief. Unfortunately, as I said earlier, fraudsters have been known to exploit charity tax relief, so the “fit and proper person” test exists to prevent that. However, even if a charity appears to be compliant in the first few years, changes in personnel can affect its attitude to compliance, so HMRC will need to continue to have evidence on which to base its assessment of the risk that the charity poses in relation to the scheme. That is why we have gone for a two-year qualification period. We believe that that gives an adequate protection against potential fraud, because people will have had to be up and running, making the thing work. Equally, it is not too long, which was the concern about the original proposals.

The noble Baroness, Lady Barker, asked specifically whether it would be possible under this scheme to collect funds and claim the gift aid from activities in housing association premises. To take a simple example, if the charity is a small local charity linked to a specific housing association and it wants to raise money from a collection in its premises or in a pub or anywhere else, it can do that. Things get more complicated if it is a branch of a large housing association—somewhat like a Catholic church—which wants to pray in aid the community building rules. In that case, because the housing association premises are essentially residential premises, it will not be able to do that, because that is the definition we have put in place.

That demonstrates that tax is complicated. There is no system we could have put in place that would have had any reasonable protection against fraud and which would not have run up against those kinds of complexities—and undoubtedly there will be anomalies. However, with tax, the choice before you is not whether you have anomalies but whether you do something or not. You are bound to have these anomalies. We took the view that putting in place a scheme that enabled charities to have access to £100 million was worth it, even though we knew that there would be some anomalies, because they come with the territory, as it were.

I believe I have answered the point that the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, raised about guidance to users. We are doing that on the various levels that she talked about. We have consulted, and will continue to consult, the standing body that HMRC has for dealing with the charity sector as a whole.

The noble Baroness made the very interesting suggestion of having a website, on which reports and a financial statement would be put. That is a possibility. I suspect that, if we had done that, someone would say that it was grossly unfair to small charities that did not have a website. However, given that we expect everybody in respect of benefits to use electronic communications, and that HMRC increasingly wants taxpayers to use them, it is not an unreasonable suggestion, and I am sure that my colleagues in HMRC will look at it.

The right reverend Prelate asked a couple of questions about simplicity and whether all the requirements were needed. As I said before, we had to take a view, and that view was that this struck the right balance between ease of access to the scheme and protection against possible fraud.

This debate has demonstrated that, if this were not a money Bill, we would be having extremely interesting discussions in Committee and on Report. Sadly, however, this is a money Bill. I therefore hope that I have been able to deal with the points that have been raised—