Energy Bill [HL]

Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle Excerpts

Consideration of Commons amendments
Tuesday 12th September 2023 Lords Chamber

I turn to the amendments related to devolution. I am pleased to update the House that the Government have reached an agreement with the Scottish Government to amend the Bill to secure their support for a legislative consent Motion in the Scottish Parliament. This comprehensive set of amendments strengthens the Bill’s consultation provisions and requires the Secretary of State to seek the consent of devolved Ministers before exercising certain powers under Clauses 2, 3 and 293. However, the Government are disappointed that the Welsh Government are currently not supporting a legislative consent Motion for the Bill in the Senedd, which is considering the Bill today. The Government have extended the amendments agreed with the Scottish Government to apply in Wales and Northern Ireland, where appropriate and in good faith. This demonstrates our commitment to continue to work closely with all devolved Governments. I beg to move.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, I will speak to Amendment 165A in my name and briefly comment on Amendment 272A in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, and Amendment 274A in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Boycott, both of which have the strongest possible Green support.

It is 2023 and we are in a climate emergency. We cannot consider new coal. I am afraid the Minister’s brandishing of heritage railways does not hack it; it is a tiny usage, much as I have no objection to heritage railways. For steel and cement, other nations are moving very quickly away from using coal while we are stuck in the starting gate. On the community energy amendment from the noble Baroness, Lady Boycott, I had the great pleasure formally to move it on Report and we saw hugely strong support not just in your Lordships’ House but all around the country. Tomorrow we will debate the Levelling-up and Regeneration Bill. This is a way to allow communities to take control of their energy supplies and provide the framework to set free huge opportunities up and down the land. It is a no-brainer and I urge your Lordships’ House to vote for both amendments.

Moving chiefly to my Amendment 165A, it is worth revisiting the history of the Bill. Those with a very long memory might think back to 19 July 2022, when it had its Second Reading in your Lordships’ House. That was three Prime Ministers back and I really cannot count how many energy policies we have had from the Government since then. We might be in traditional ping-pong now, but the Government’s positions on so many of the issues in the Energy Bill have bounced back and forward so fast within the Government that it is enough to make any observer dizzy.

One of the last-minute additions was this clause on so-called sustainable aviation fuel. If noble Lords look back to the other place, they will see that the level of debate that occurred around this very significant amendment was really very scant. That is why I have tabled this amendment now, to provide a real opportunity for your Lordships’ House to at least explore the issues and bring out some of the Government’s thinking. I hope we will also hear significant explanations from the other Front Benches on what their thinking is on so-called sustainable aviation fuel. It is often linked with and spoken about as though it is in the same stable as renewable energy, but the fact is, of course, that almost no flights now are powered by sustainable fuel because of supply and cost. Sustainable fuel can be three times as expensive and even for United, the largest consumer of sustainable fuels in the US, last year it comprised less than 1% of its total fuel consumption.

The fact is that so-called sustainable aviation fuels are not a “get out of the limits of this finite planet free card” for the aviation sector. The idea that aviation can keep expanding, or that it should—I shall be coming back to this tomorrow in an amendment to the levelling-up Bill—is, I would say, for the birds: although of course the birds cannot afford the inevitable environmental damage that burning stuff, whatever the stuff is, inflicts.

I can go through some statistics on this. Bain & Company in June published a report assessing the most likely pathways to net zero by 2050 for the aviation sector. The headline was that it can eliminate 70% of emissions from aircraft operations without using electric or hydrogen at scale. Just 5% of emissions reductions come from hydrogen and electric planes in the Bain & Company scenario; the rest is engine efficiency, aircraft efficiency, optimising routes and scaling up so-called sustainable aviation fuels. A 70% reduction is significant, but the Science Based Targets initiative net-zero standard requires a 90% reduction in CO₂ across all scopes by 2050 at the very latest. This report suggests that so-called sustainable aviation fuel can meet a maximum of 60% of global jet fuel demand in 2050 in the best-case scenario.

I think it is worth reflecting very briefly, looking to debates in the other place, that we saw both Labour and Tory MPs going further than this amendment does and calling for government subsidies for the sector. We have to set this in the context of the fact that tax exemptions last year saw the Treasury lose £4.7 billion from the aviation sector: that is calculated by Transport & Environment. That could pay for—gosh—more than 40 new hospitals: does that sound familiar? Or it could cover the cost 10 times over of additional medical staff. It is the equivalent of 1% of the income taxes collected by the Government last year. That is the context.

To come to the detail, my amendment simply addresses subsection (6). It seeks to bring in some systems thinking: an approach that does not look simply at the climate emergency because, as huge and pressing as that is, we are actually in a state where we have exceeded so many other planetary boundaries and we face so many other crises and threats that it is absolutely critical that the Government think in a systemic kind of way. If your Lordships want to think about where things went horribly wrong when we did not do that, Dieselgate is the obvious example. That was a case of corruption and fraud, but behind it was the problem of looking simply at the carbon emissions from diesel and not considering all the other environmental effects.

The current government amendment says that the Secretary of State should look at the contribution to the reduction in greenhouse gases. My amendment keeps that but adds the impact on the food system. Your Lordships’ House often debates the fact that food security is a huge and pressing issue of our age, and if we take land out of use for growing food and turn it to growing stock for aviation fuels, we are creating a potentially huge problem for ourselves.

Proposed new subsection (6)(c) says,

“not negatively impact human, animal or plant health”.

That perhaps comes back to the diesel reference, if we think particularly about human health. Burning stuff produces pollutants—that is just practical reality. However, we must also think about plant health. We often talk about using agricultural waste for these sustainable aviation fuels. That agricultural waste could be going back into the soil to contribute to soil and plant health, bringing us to a situation where we are not depleting our soils and then topping them up with artificial fertilisers, particularly nitrogen produced by the incredibly energy-intensive Haber-Bosch process. This is a systems-thinking, joined-up approach.

Finally, my amendment says,

“not negatively impact the availability of feedstocks for other industrial processes”.

The Minister referred to steel and cement, but all kinds of different, innovative steps are being taken to use all kinds of different materials to replace current fossil fuel production. We need to think about where what we call waste could best go.

I am aware of the desire to move this debate on, so I will not speak much longer, but I have just two final reflections. First, we hear a great deal of talk about waste cooking oil in terms of so-called sustainable fuels. Well, I am afraid that your local chippy is not going to take your private jet flight very far at all—let us be realistic about that. Secondly, my mother’s favourite movie was “The Sound of Music”, in which there is a song that goes:

“Nothing comes from nothing,


Nothing ever could”.

All energy use—all fuel—has environmental and social costs associated with its production and use. We have to think in that systemic, holistic way when we think about how we fuel our sustainable future.

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

My Lords, I will speak to Amendment 187A in my name. The purpose of moving this amendment is straightforward: we have an opportunity to put in place an enforceable plan of action that will deliver the often-mentioned aspirations to deliver energy-efficient homes and properties. I was sure that the Minister would repeat the line that this is unnecessary—and so he did. But I am afraid that the facts tell a different story. The new clause would enable a plan to be in place, working to clear targets to reduce gas supply in homes by 25% and a 10-year programme to retrofit 19 million homes, costed at £6 billion, with local authority and a community base to deliver.

The facts are these. Since 2010, progress to reduce emissions has stalled. The UK is still heavily reliant on fossil fuels for home heating and industry, and has the least energy-efficient housing stock in Europe, according to the IMF. Limited progress on energy-efficiency measures has been made worse by poor public information campaigns and the lack of a long-term plan with clear targets, clear technical explanations and little evidence of a financial and structural plan to go alongside. I do not wish to repeat all the comments that have been made throughout the debates on this Bill. However, we have to acknowledge a lack of grip, of urgency, and of serious explanation of the benefits of determined action.

In terms of tackling emissions and meeting legally binding decarbonisation targets, reducing the need for heat must be a top priority. Benefits include: a reduction in the cost of heating homes—therefore, a very positive help to those suffering from the cost of living crisis; a huge benefit to the health of the population by achieving affordable warmth, potentially saving the NHS £500 million a year; and a major contribution to energy security by reducing our dependence on fossil fuels.

These come on top of the potential of delivering economic benefits, providing skilled jobs and high-wage opportunities. Retrofitting poorly performing homes alone could support 190,000 jobs across all regions. Given the strength of opinion on energy efficiency in so many analyses of progress, I am minded to test the opinion of the House.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

My Lords, with the leave of the House I will speak also to the other amendments in this group, which concern new policy that was introduced in the other place. I turn first to the amendments on hydrogen transport and storage infrastructure. These amendments will enable business models to be brought forward to provide investors with the long-term revenue certainty that they will need to establish and scale up the deployment of hydrogen transport and storage infrastructure. I am sure this will be of interest to the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, and the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, who spoke about this earlier in the Bill’s passage.

The development of this infrastructure represents the critical next step in the growth of the hydrogen economy to support the Government’s ambition to have up to 10 gigawatts of low-carbon hydrogen production capacity by 2030. The business models are intended to help overcome the key barriers to investment in this infrastructure, such as high capital costs, lengthy development lead times and uncertain financial investment returns in what is a very nascent market.

Next, on carbon capture storage information and samples, the amendments support the role of the North Sea Transition Authority—NSTA—as the regulator of carbon dioxide storage in the UK continental shelf. They achieve this by ensuring that it has the relevant powers to access and share information and samples collected through relevant carbon-storage activities. This reflects similar powers already held by the NSTA for the petroleum industry and will enhance knowledge sharing across the carbon capture, usage and storage industry. It will support innovation for the effective utilisation of the UK’s geological storage potential and help encourage private investment in the UK’s growing green economy.

The Government have also tabled amendments relating to Great British Nuclear. These amendments will enable GBN to support government in rebuilding our civil nuclear industry and facilitating the delivery of nuclear projects to achieve our net-zero ambitions. GBN will play a critical role in strengthening the UK’s energy security. By legislating for GBN, we are working to undo decades of underinvestment and inspire trust in the UK civil nuclear industry, restoring the global leadership that the UK used to have in civil nuclear power.

I move on to discuss the amendments to provide relief on network charging for energy-intensive industries. High industrial electricity prices are one of the key barriers that inhibit the most carbon-intensive sectors from adopting greener technology. The measures deliver on a fundamental element of the British industry supercharger set out in February. These amendments will give the Government the powers to deliver a scheme that will provide relief on electricity network charges for Britain’s strategic energy-intensive industries. It will bring electricity prices for these UK businesses in line with some of their global competitors, thereby helping to preserve thousands of jobs and investment and enabling greater electrification of industrial processes, removing one of the major barriers to decarbonisation. I beg to move.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, I rise to speak to Amendments 259A to 271A inclusive; your Lordships will be pleased to know that I do not intend to speak to each one individually. For technical reasons these had to be split up but, essentially, this is a chance for your Lordships’ House to reconsider again the whole Great British Nuclear introduction that the Minister just outlined.

This debate follows on in many ways from that secured for last Thursday by the noble Lord, Lord Howell of Guildford, about nuclear power. I will not revisit all the many issues raised there, although I note that the noble Lord, Lord Howell, expressed rightful and strong scepticism about the progress of both Hinkley Point C and Sizewell C, on cost and other factors. There is also the continuing cost of the clean-up of dinosaur technology from the last century of £260 billion, and issues of waste that we have still not tackled.

I said that I will not go through these amendments one by one, but I do want to speak to Amendment 262A, which disagrees with the financial assistance. In our discussion yesterday on the failure of the offshore wind contract for difference bidding process, the Minister said my suggestion that we should look at a higher strike price for offshore wind was not thinking about the bill payer. I do not know how many Members of your Lordships’ House have looked closely at the detail of government Amendment 262, but it is utterly an open slather:

“The Secretary of State may provide financial assistance … to facilitate the design, construction, commissioning and operation of nuclear energy generation”.


Proposed new subsection (2) says that this assistance

“may be provided … by way of grant, loan, guarantee or indemnity … the acquisition of shares … the acquisition of … assets … a contract, or … by incurring expenditure for the benefit of the person assisted”.

Proposed new subsection (3) says that the assistance may be considered “without interest”—it goes on and on. I will not go through the whole lot, but basically this allows the Secretary of State the open slather to do whatever they like to fund nuclear—and one thing we know about nuclear energy generation is that it costs, and the cost just keeps going up.

I am afraid there is currently a great deal of speculation. Many people accept that, essentially, Hinkley Point C and Sizewell C are ongoing disasters. We have this wonderful new idea of small-scale nuclear plants scattered all over the countryside, as a noble Lord suggested in last Thursday’s debate. Really, my Lords, how realistic is this? We are talking about something that simply does not scale down.

I am aware of the desire of your Lordships’ House to move on to votes, but I want to quote one person who perhaps has a different perspective from mine. Markus Krebber, the chief executive of RWE, suggests that investors should not and will not back nuclear plants. This comes back to the issue of finance. If there will not be private money coming in, we are talking about massive sums of government money. He told the Australian Financial Review:

“I would have a big question mark whether building new ones is really a good strategy, because if you look at the cost overruns and the delays, I think purely a renewables-based energy system including the necessary storage is probably in most of the regions already today cheaper than new nuclear”.


I think that is unarguable.

I will briefly address the issue of Sizewell C. We are talking as Japanese fishermen around the Fukushima nuclear plant suffer massive economic loss as a result of the dumping of wastewater into the sea there. In Suffolk we will see the local economy facing massive loss if Sizewell C goes ahead. Studies by the Suffolk Coast destination management organisation show that visitors would stay away, losing the tourism industry up to £40 million a year and an estimated 400 jobs.

If we look at the environmental impacts of the proposed Sizewell C, we can see that it is opposed by both the RSPB and the Suffolk Wildlife Trust. The site is surrounded by protected wildlife habitats. When it comes to water, the Planning Inspectorate was unable to recommend that Sizewell C be granted planning consent due to the lack of an identified long-term supply of potable water. There is a huge problem with access to the site. It will require a 60-metre cut-off wall so that it can be dewatered and existing soil can be swapped out for more suitable material and huge, as yet undesigned, sea defences. Looking at the state of our climate now, we are seeing significant runaway with very serious potential risks in the impact on our sea levels. I note that Cefas said that

“it is generally only possible to predict detailed changes to the coastline over the next 10 years”.

I have focused a little on Sizewell C and the deep uncertainties and concern because of the point about money. Under the government amendment, we are letting a Government go ahead and do whatever they like and spend whatever they like on a project that is so deeply problematic.

Offshore Wind

Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle Excerpts

Monday 11th September 2023 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what steps they plan to take to ensure the continued development of the offshore wind industry following the failure to attract bids in the latest Contracts for Difference round.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Energy Security and Net Zero (Lord Callanan) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government are disappointed that no offshore or floating offshore wind projects secured contracts for difference in the most recent allocation round. The results provide valuable learning for subsequent auctions. Work has already started on allocation round 6, incorporating the results of the recent round, and we look forward to a strong pipeline of technologies participating. The Government remain fully committed to our target of decarbonising the power system by 2035 and to our ambitions for 50 gigawatts of offshore wind, including up to 5 gigawatts of floating wind.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

I thank the Minister for his Answer, but can we really wait? Look at what has happened in other countries: for example, Germany had a similar experience in December then, in the subsequent two quarters, lifted its price cap and increased its number of bids by several times. In the US, Massachusetts had a failure and New York is now considering petitions to offer a higher price. This is the low-cost, low-carbon alternative: the industry is now suggesting that there is a 24-gigawatt gap for the 2030 target. Surely the Government should be taking immediate action in the shorter term to fix this problem of their own creation, given that this was widely predicted to happen before the contracts closed.

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I am happy to hear the noble Baroness be so cavalier with bill payers’ funds; she is, in effect, talking about increasing the strike price. It is always difficult for the Government to strike the right balance: we want to get the best value possible for bill payers, as opposed to providing sufficient revenue for the companies to build. I obviously know which side the noble Baroness is on but I want to be on the side of the bill payer. We have already secured the largest offshore wind sector in Europe by far; she quotes the example of Germany, which should be very jealous of the amount of offshore wind capacity that we have. We secured almost 7 gigawatts in the last allocation round and, in this round, secured 91 projects with other technologies. There is a viable long-term pipeline of about 77 gigawatts of wind available to this Government and we will take advantage of it, but we will make sure that we do it at the right price for consumers.

Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Bill

Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle Excerpts

Consideration of Commons amendments
Monday 26th June 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, I echo some of the concerns expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Krebs. In moving the amendment, my noble friend the Minister referred to the amendments from the Commons, completely overlooking the fact that there is no legislative consent. Scottish and Welsh legislative consent has been withheld, and I understand that the Government have not yet heard from Northern Ireland. I think that he referred to the fact that we have now moved on and do not have to rely on the other member states to pass our environmental laws, but I would feel more comfortable if the four nations agreed on what the environmental principles should be. I would be very pleased to hear from my noble friend what he believes the situation currently is.

I have just one word of caution. I fear that environmental protections are not as secure as perhaps we might be led to believe by this Government. We have just had brought into effect two ground-breaking free trade agreements with Australia and New Zealand, both of which have set lower standards for imported meat and foodstuffs, which do not meet the same requirements of animal welfare and environmental protection such as our home producers have to meet. That is another source of concern.

Perhaps my overriding concern is that we have seen already—despite the fact that they said that they would not do this—that the Government have overturned primary legislation through secondary legislation in the form of a statutory instrument in the past two weeks.

I have outstanding concerns on these amendments, but I respect the fact that our power is limited to scrutiny in this Chamber. I believe that the Bill is in a better place than when it was first introduced to this House, but I have concerns about what will happen when it leaves this place.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, I rise briefly to express great concern about the lack of any offer on non-regression. I am going to bring this back to the absolute physical reality of the UK and the England that we are in today. In the other place, the Science, Innovation and Technology Committee has started an inquiry into the impact of insect decline on food security. If anyone wants to see the practical reality of this, I invite them to go out the back of the Foreign Office today, where a wonderful wildflower meadow has been created—they should go and look at it and ask where the insects are, because there are practically no insects there.

We have insect decline and a decline in our plants. Non-native plants now outnumber native plants in the UK: that is the state of the UK today. We have, right now, a huge, category 4 marine heatwave, which is going to have a huge impact on our marine world. It is very clear that the protections for the environment that we have now are vastly not enough, yet we are not promising even to maintain them. I ask everyone in this House to consider what people in the future will think when they look at today’s debate.

[Lord Hope of Craighead (CB)]

My Lords, I think it is appropriate that I speak to Motion B1 in my name, on the issue of parliamentary scrutiny. That issue remains as important this afternoon as it has been since the Bill first arrived in this House and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, addressed us, with his usual skill, as to the importance of the issue. I have been doing my best to secure its place in the Bill at every stage, but each attempt has been rejected, either as novel and untested, which happened twice, or as incompatible with the system that the Bill lays down, on the last occasion. I regret very much that I have not been able to devise any other way of achieving that object that would be acceptable to the Government.

However, I did find two words, buried in a long and rather complicated paragraph in Schedule 5, which I think may at least open the door to something which is worth looking at more carefully, and that is the subject of my amendment. I am particularly grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Callanan, for being prepared to speak to me so that I could explain the purpose of my amendment and ask him whether he would be prepared to make a statement, in effect, giving me, in his words, what I was asking for in my amendment: words of explanation about these two words and reassurance about how the Government propose to respect the need for Parliament to be kept properly informed and consulted at each stage as the process of revocation proceeds.

The two words I am talking about, by way of explanation, are to be found in paragraph 6 of Schedule 5, which sets out an elaborate screening process in a case where a Minister is of the view that these statutory instruments should be subject to the negative procedure. The protection lies in the hands of screening committees of both Houses, which can take the view that the instrument should be subject to the affirmative procedure. If that is done, the Minister has the opportunity to give an explanation and perhaps try to persuade the committees to change their mind.

The important point for my purposes is to be found in sub-paragraph (12) and the words:

“Nothing in this paragraph prevents a Minister of the Crown from deciding at any time before a statutory instrument containing regulations under section 11, 12 or 14 is made that another procedure should apply in relation to the instrument”.


It is the words “another procedure” that caught my attention, because there is no further explanation in the schedule as to what that other procedure might be, except that in the following sub-paragraph there is a declaration that the statutory procedure for laying regulations in draft under the 1946 Act is not to apply, so we cannot have the statutory procedure of the 40-day period; that has been ruled out. My question to the Minister is: what is this other procedure that is available? The Minister has been very good in explaining in considerable detail what he builds into these words. In effect, he is providing me with exactly what my amendment is asking for. I welcome very much the clarity of his statement and we will of course bear it very closely in mind as the process proceeds.

My concern has always been that we are moving into the unknown. We have been told many times that the dashboard contains information. The dashboard sets out a list of names of the instruments, but it does not tell us, at least at the moment, what is to be done with them. That is the importance of the statement that the Minister has made today, because we need to be told, as everything proceeds, what is going on and what is planned and be able to express our views as to whether the proposals are acceptable or sensible or otherwise. I thank the Minister for his statement and I also express my warm thanks to all noble Lords who have supported me throughout my campaign and enabled me to maintain my campaign to the point I have reached today, but in the light of what the Minister has very kindly said, I am not intending to press my amendment.

Climate Change Committee: Discussions

Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle Excerpts

Thursday 27th April 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I am sorry to disappoint the noble Baroness but the Minister is going to say that we do not subsidise fossil fuels, because that is the case. In fact, the opposite is true. We gain billions of pounds per year in tax revenues from fossil fuels.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, would the Minister agree with the right honourable Member in the other place Chris Skidmore, the chair of the independent review of net zero, who has come out in opposition to the new Rosebank field development? He recently said:

“We must not let the industries of the past dictate our future”.

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I actually agree with him on that particular statement. Of course we need to move towards phasing out fossil fuel use; nobody disagrees with that. We have a legal commitment to do that and we are doing so through a transition. As I said in response to previous questions, the question is where we get those reserves from in future. Even with new licensing, UK production in the North Sea will continue to decline at a rate of about 7% per year. At the moment we are importing LNG to satisfy our domestic demand, which has about twice the carbon footprint of that produced in the North Sea. I really do not understand the point the noble Baroness is making.

Powering Up Britain

Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle Excerpts

Wednesday 19th April 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

As I suspect the noble Baroness knows, I am afraid that I cannot give her a direct answer on the date of the consultation response. That is just the way that government works: the consultation response will come when it comes. Even if it were happening tomorrow, I would not be able to presage it, because it has to go into the Downing Street grid and through all those processes. I will endeavour to let her know as soon as it becomes available.

The amendments to the Energy Bill were of course disappointing. I noticed that there were no big majorities in favour of any of them, but we will look at them closely and respond in due course.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, we face a difficult situation, with recess intervening and us now having a short period to interrogate 44 documents, which, as Carbon Brief calculated, comprise 2,840 pages. The timing was unfortunate, although it was forced by the 2022 High Court ruling that the net-zero strategy is unlawful—the deadline was at that point.

I will pick on one specific point. The energy security plan notes that the Government opened in October 2022 a new licensing round for oil and gas projects, and that 115 projects have bid, with the first licences expected to be awarded in the next quarter of this year. There is no mention in the energy security plan of the climate compatibility checkpoint, which was devised and announced by the Government in 2021. This was meant to ensure that any new oil and gas licences would be awarded only if they were in line with the UK’s net-zero goals. Can the Minister tell me if the climate compatibility checkpoint still applies and is being used by the Government?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

On the two questions from the noble Baroness, first, as usual, she is dead wrong in her statement about the High Court action. It did not rule that the Government’s plans are unlawful; in fact, the High Court clearly made no criticism whatever about the substance of our plans, which are well on track. During the proceedings, the claimants themselves described them as “laudable”. The independent Climate Change Committee described the net-zero strategy as

“an ambitious and comprehensive strategy that marks a significant step forward for UK climate policy”.

The court simply wished to see more detail on our plans. I am pleased to say that the Carbon Budget Delivery Plan, which we published alongside Powering Up Britain, provides that detail and sets out a package of proposals and policies that will enable carbon budgets to be met, ensuring that Britain remains the leader and among the fastest-decarbonising nations in the world.

The answer to the noble Baroness’s question about oil and gas licences is that the climate compatibility checkpoint remains, but I make no apologies about this whatever. During the transition, we still have a requirement for oil and gas in the UK; the only question is whether we get it from British resources or from Saudi Arabia, Qatar, the US or somewhere else. Do we want to be paying British tax and employing British workers or for that money to be exported? That is the question that faces us.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, if no one else is going to stand up, I will come back to the Minister on a different, broader and more conceptual point. I am very tempted to respond to the previous answer, but I will not.

The Committee on Climate Change said that we should be shifting from looking at territorial emissions to consumption emissions. The fact is that a great deal of manufacturing has been offshored in recent decades and emissions are currently being counted against other countries on a territorial basis, while we are consuming the goods made from them. Are the Government planning to follow the recommendations of the Committee on Climate Change and move from measuring territorial emissions to consumption emissions?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

It is a complicated question. We have no plans to. We will measure our emissions on the same basis that everybody else does. Nevertheless, I concede to the noble Baroness that she makes a valid point about carbon leakage and the extent to which we have driven many energy-intensive industries out of the UK and Europe, but we still use the products that many of them produce. These are produced not in Europe and the UK any more but in other parts of the world, often in more carbon-intensive manners.

There is a difficult policy question facing us and the EU: how do you address that if other countries do not have ambitious plans like ours to decarbonise but you still need the products? Do you look at mechanisms such as carbon border adjustment mechanisms, which the EU is looking at? Intrinsically, we are in favour of free trade, so we do not want to go down that avenue. A far better strategy is to try to persuade other countries to adopt similarly ambitious plans to ours.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, given the fact that this is a really important issue and I do not see anyone else rising, I will rise once again. The Government have committed to a fully decarbonised electricity power system by 2035. The Committee on Climate Change has said that their plans need urgent reform to achieve that goal. Can the Minister assure me that he is highly confident that we are on track for that 2035 goal for electricity?

Energy Bill [HL]

Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle Excerpts

Report stage
Monday 17th April 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ravensdale (CB)]

My Lords, I declare my interest as a project director and engineer working for Atkins in the nuclear industry. I also chair the cross-party group Legislators for Nuclear.

In Committee, my previous amendments in this area—they were originally put forward by the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, before she joined the Front Bench—aimed to define nuclear as taxonomy-aligned within the UK’s green taxonomy. Naturally, I was delighted to see the Government commit to this in the Spring Budget, pending a consultation,. I shall speak briefly to my resulting Amendment 137.

Following the green taxonomy announcement and progress on the renewable transport fuel obligation, there remains one glaring aberration in the treatment of nuclear in the Government’s financing frameworks: the current exclusion of nuclear from the UK green financing framework, which describes how the UK Government plan to finance expenditures through the issuance of green gilts and the retail green savings bonds. Now that nuclear is due to be specified as taxonomy-aligned, I am sure that the Minister would agree, for consistency if nothing else, that it should also now be eligible under the green financing framework. This would have many benefits in ensuring the availability of vital extra funding for nuclear projects to enable the decarbonisation of our energy system.

I would be grateful if, in summing up, the Minister could state when the Government intend to address this issue.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, I will speak briefly to Amendment 68 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, to which I have attached my name. I will also make a couple of other comments on this group.

I can probably predict some of what the Minister will say about the amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Whitty. I note, as I am sure all Members of the House have, that, three days ago, the Government announced £30 million for experimental or first-stage renewable storage projects. We have pump thermal, thermal and compressed air, and a number of other schemes. What is really important about this amendment is the context of the report to Parliament in six months. This is something that is absolutely crucial to the renewables transition, and we really need to see democratic oversight of where it is going.

I particularly make the point that this must be a strategy. Instead of one-off projects here and there, we need a whole integrated system. One thing that is really unconsidered is vehicle-to-grid storage. As we have more and more electric cars, if we have innovation in management we can use those cars as storage when people do not need them for transport. This is a way in which we would need much less resources—the Government are themselves saying that we could save £10 billion by 2050 by reducing our need to generate electricity.

I have just a couple of comments to make on the other amendments in the group. It will not surprise anyone in your Lordships’ House to hear that I oppose Amendment 137 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Ravensdale. However, its very existence is a demonstration of the way in which new nuclear can be a distraction from the renewables investment that is our energy future.

On the amendments in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, on electrifying and decarbonising oil and gas facilities, I am afraid that the term “greenwash” has to appear at this point. I have an amendment in a later group asking for no new oil, gas or coal. Any reduction in energy use on a new oil rig because it has some solar panels on top of it does not take us anywhere like where we need to go in this climate emergency.

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

My Lords, I will speak briefly to the amendments in this second group, starting with Amendment 65 from the noble Lord, Lord Teverson. All I can do is echo his clear requests for confirmation that the Government will be more flexible and for clarity around multipurpose interconnectors, particularly with regard to the relationships between Great Britain and other jurisdictions. Will the interconnectors operate in a similar way to the offshore electricity transmission regime? I hope that the Minister will be able to give the reassurance and clarification that the amendments in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, ask for.

I thank my noble friend Lord Whitty for tabling Amendment 68, on an issue that he feels passionately about and comments on whenever the opportunity arises. We know that, as the electricity network develops new facilities and new renewable sources of generation, there will be a need for more storage capacity. As we have said, there is a non-exhaustive list of technologies, and new ones coming on stream that we might not have considered so far, and so comments must extend beyond batteries. The important part of this amendment to consider is a commitment from the Government to give support to assist with developing the storage capacity that we need.

The further amendments, led by the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, look to remove legislative barriers to the electrification and decarbonisation of oil and gas facilities, and to work towards a green financing framework. We must be mindful of the uncertainty of costs, going forward. When considering these amendments, it is important to consider decarbonisation, which is critical to the Bill, but also affordability and ensuring that energy is within the reach of every person in the country.

We know that the zero-carbon electricity system is possibly 19% cheaper than gas-based facilities, and that UK gas power is currently estimated to be nine times the amount of renewable power. Driving down energy costs means that we need cheap, clean power. We must take this rare opportunity presented by the Bill to ensure that we use the legislative framework to drive measures that will, in the short-term, reach towards action to decarbonise the electricity system and bring down costs.

The passage of the Bill through the House has been quite lengthy, but we really must take the opportunity presented to us to ensure that we make the progress that is required.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

My Lords, I was pleased to add my name to the amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Whitty. There is no easy answer to the question of a social tariff—all solutions to fuel poverty have downsides—but the industry feels that this is the direction of movement and consumer groups agree, so I will be interested to hear the Minister’s response. I have also tabled two amendments in this group: Amendments 70 and 71 about prepayment meters. This is a particularly important area to me. I will not take up the House’s time by going through the arguments again, but I would be interested to hear from the Minister where the Government stand now on prepayment meters and self-disconnection.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, I have attached my name to a number of amendments in this group in the names of the noble Lords, Lord Whitty and Lord Teverson. The arguments on prepayment meters put by the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, are very clear; we have seen that all over the media.

The noble Lord, Lord Whitty, referred to the fact that this is a long-term issue, but it is worth highlighting that, since we debated this in Committee, the Government’s own figures have come out. They show that the fuel poverty level in the UK increased to 13.4% over the course of 2022 and predict that it will reach 14.4% by 2024.

Of course, these figures use the highly questioned government definition of fuel poverty, which does not allow for anyone living in a home above D classification to be classed as fuel poor even if they simply cannot afford to heat that home. According to the National Energy Action definition of fuel poverty—households spending more than 10% of their income after housing costs on energy bills—there were 7.39 million households in that condition in 2022, and the NEA estimates that this year, after April, 8.4 million people will be in households in fuel poverty.

These measures would be highly targeted to address the poorest. They are simply common sense, enabling people to live and be healthy in our society.

[Lord Lennie (Lab)]

My Lords, this group of amendments from the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, my noble friend Lord Whitty and the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, consider the circumstances of some of the vulnerable customers in the energy market, and the actions the Government might take to protect them from the vagaries of the market. Such actions range from a social tariff through to inhibiting the exploitation of current prepayment meter customers and a prohibition on the installation of prepayment meters unless specifically requested by a customer. These amendments would collectively offer protection for these customers, who are often regarded as problems by billing companies.

As was said by the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, Ofgem recently announced a stop to companies forcing their way into premises to fit prepayment meters. This practice was commonplace and saw such customers paying more in energy costs as companies passed on the costs associated with the fitting and maintenance of prepayment meters. The ban was originally due to last until the end of March and has now been made indefinite.

The call for a social tariff has been advocated by Citizens Advice and is supported by the Social Market Foundation. It comes in a report that follows a long period of consultation with industry leaders, civil society and the general public. Last year, National Energy Action also argued for a social tariff for low-income households, highlighting the double bind of energy costs and rising bills coupled with paying more due to the poverty premium. A targeted social tariff would limit the impact of these circumstances, as well as help accelerate a fair transition towards net zero. I repeat the question asked by my noble friend Lord Whitty: are the Government able to give an indication that they might review the current tariff structure with a view to making it fairer, in favour of vulnerable customers, including prepayment meter customers?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Boycott (CB)]

My Lords, I will speak to Amendments 134 and 135, about community energy. In the midst of an energy crisis, when cheap and clean home-produced energy has never been more vital, as we have heard in this debate, we are far behind where we could be with the amount of small-scale renewable energy, especially community energy schemes, which are simply community-owned and community-run renewable energy projects. Our limited number of schemes has been massively welcomed by politicians of all parties because they provide cheaper and greener power, and they distribute benefits locally, rather than up to the big power companies.

The feed-in tariff briefly created rapid growth in these schemes, but that has dwindled to almost nothing—despite renewable technologies being cheaper than ever. The lack of growth is largely the result of the prohibitive cost that the small-scale generators face. The problem is well recognised, and 318 MPs from all major parties back the Local Electricity Bill, which would enable community energy schemes to sell electricity they generate to their local customers.

The potential is enormous. According to the Environmental Audit Committee, community energy could grow by 12 to 20 times by 2030, power 2.2 million homes and save 2.5 million tonnes of CO² emissions every year. This would take our renewable energy generation from community schemes to almost 10% of our entire needs, and the substantial benefits of enabling this can barely be overstated. However, community energy has seen a trickle of minimal growth, amounting to less than half a per cent.

The problem can be solved without subsidy, and this seems to be the key point. Small-scale renewable energy generators need to receive only a guaranteed fair price for the electricity they contribute to an energy system in desperate need of homegrown energy, as we have heard. Amendment 134 establishes a

“Community and Smaller-scale Electricity Export Guarantee Scheme”.


It would provide a guaranteed income for the electricity from small-scale low-carbon energy generators, with “small” defined as “a capacity below 5MW”. This would mean that communities get properly remunerated for their contribution to the system, and they can therefore go to their banks and raise the funds to expand or establish. This guaranteed price could be set by regulations, revised annually by Ofgem, with the initial contract guaranteed for at least five years—not that long.

Amendment 135 establishes a

“Community and Smaller-scale Electricity Supplier Services Scheme”.


This, again, would allow community schemes that registered under the electricity export guarantee scheme also to sell the electricity they generate locally. No requirement is placed on community schemes to do this, so, if they wish, they could operate simply using the proceeds of the export guarantee. For some, such returns would be sufficient to encourage local people to invest in new energy schemes—such was the case when we had a feed-in tariff.

But, if a community wants, it can sell the electricity it generates directly to households and businesses in its community. It can do so, for example, as an additional incentive for local people to invest or because it believes it can offer a lower tariff to the less well off in the community—this point was made on previous amendments this afternoon. This means that the community, which knows its people and what is going on, can flex its tariffs, and everyone can buy in to the project.

As with the clause created by Amendment 134, this would all be monitored by Ofgem and reported on annually. This is a nationwide campaign backed by a coalition of over 80 organisations—the Church of England, the CPRE, the Energy Saving Trust et cetera; I will not name them all—and 100 councils have already stated their support. Four of the six major distribution network operators—basically, our regional energy grid monopolies: Electricity North West, SP Energy, UK Power and Western Power—are supportive. As has been mentioned before, the Skidmore review supports all such organisations and ideas that will help green renewable energy, so I am completely puzzled as to why Ministers are not falling over themselves to make this thing happen.

In Committee, the Minister, the noble Lord, Lord Callanan, said that the amendments would create a subsidy to community energy schemes. However, we need to be really clear—in saying this, I want to pre-empt a response from the Minister—that the amendments do not establish subsidies for community energy schemes. Renewable energy can stand on its own two feet now; it has been successful in cutting costs over the last two decades and is now completely viable without the need for feed-in tariffs. We just need to set up the right market system for the energy for people to buy it and for people to be responsible for it. I will be completely puzzled if the Minister does not accept that, and I warn him now that I intend to test the opinion of the House later.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, the three amendments have been extremely ably introduced by the noble Lord, Lord Ravensdale, and the noble Baroness, Lady Boycott. It is a pleasure to speak after them, having attached my name to all three amendments.

I will briefly sum up what they seek to achieve. Amendments 134 and 135 are about community energy, which is where people can get together as a community, decide what they want their local energy system to look like and deliver it. There is no need for any involvement from Westminster or big multinational companies; it is a chance for communities to get together. Surely, as the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, has signed both Amendments 134 and 135, this would be seen to be utterly in line with Conservative approaches. I note that, in the other place, among the hundreds of signatories is Sir Graham Brady, so if you want a full political spread, perhaps from me to Sir Graham Brady will pretty well cover the breadth of support for community energy.

On Amendment 94, we know that there is huge concentration of power and resources, and that the reins are held very tightly by Westminster. As the noble Lord, Lord Ravensdale, set out, Wales and Scotland have already seen the importance of local decision-making to solve local problems to ensure that they are able to deliver renewables, with local people making the decisions about where they go, what they look like and how they are distributed. Indeed, as the noble Baroness, Lady Boycott, said, this could be a local poverty alleviation issue and a levelling-up type of approach.

I acknowledge that the Minister has very kindly had meetings with us to discuss the amendments. We keep being told that this is something that the Government would like to do eventually but it is all too difficult. However, I think it is all worked out and set out in the amendments. Clearly, many people in the other place and here have been convinced that now is the time to go for community energy.

I will offer a final reflection. I happened to be in a bed and breakfast in Norfolk this morning, chatting across the table to some residents of Herefordshire who had just driven across the country and were about to drive back. They asked me, “Where are all the solar panels? We can’t see solar panels where we know we should see solar panels.” I said that the answer to scale this up quickly could be community energy.

--- Later in debate ---

With these reassurances, I hope noble Lords will feel able to withdraw or not move their amendments.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

Before the Minister sits down, I would like to apologise to the House; I should perhaps have declared my position as a vice-president of the Local Government Association. The Minister referred to the costs of local schemes, but would he acknowledge that there has been historically—and certainly will be in the future—a great deal of voluntary effort and contributions in the administration and running of such schemes, and that that is a net input into communities that does not have a financial cost, which can affect the price?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

If organisations take advantage of community-minded individuals prepared to contribute work to their local community, that is something that we welcome. However, what will be critical to those communities is the ultimate tariff that they pay, irrespective of how much voluntary effort goes in. Our concern is that these amendments are being slightly oversold to many communities; they may think that they are somehow going to get a favourable tariff compared to what they would get in the wider market. As currently structured, we do not believe that the amendments would produce that.

--- Later in debate ---

The Government fully realise this. At COP 26, we were one of the leading nations in signing the global methane pledge to reduce emissions by 30% by 2030, so the Government already recognise how important this is. It is within their grasp, it will not cost them anything, and it will save ordinary households lots of money. It is a no-brainer, so I hope that the Minister will be able to give me some positive reassurance that this is an issue that the Government are taking extremely seriously and that they realise how important it is that we are shown to be leading on this globally, because our leadership matters globally.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Sheehan, and to offer the strongest possible Green support for her Amendment 124, which would prohibit the flaring and venting of hydrocarbons other than in an emergency. The case has already been very powerfully made, but I will add that this has been a recommendation of the Commons Environmental Audit Committee and what is known as the Skidmore report—the Mission Zero independent review. It is something that other nations are well in advance of us on—a point that forms something of a theme for my remarks.

I also support for Amendment 131, which we have not heard fully set out yet, on no new coal mines. It has broad cross-party and non-party support, and it is obvious that we cannot have new coal.

I shall speak chiefly to my Amendment 138B, which goes further. Very simply, it would prohibit new oil, gas and coal extraction. I tabled a similar amendment in Committee and will not go over the same ground, but I want to briefly make three points. First, in May 2021, the International Energy Agency—not known as a group of radial greenies—called clearly for no new oil, gas or coal. Therefore, my amendment would deliver what the International Energy Agency said had to be done in 2021. We are now in 2023.

Since we were in Committee, we have seen increasing momentum behind the fossil fuel non-proliferation treaty, one element of which is no new oil, gas or coal. Six Pacific nations have issued a joint call to the world to say that this has to happen. The Prime Minister of Vanuatu said that polluting industries would not break from their “business as usual” behaviour without being forced. He said that we had to “explicitly stop the expansion” of production.

We often hear about the Government’s desire to be world-leading. It is actually this week, on 19 April, that the state of California is considering a resolution to formally endorse the fossil fuel non-proliferation treaty, which would deliver no new oil, gas or coal. It is going to have a Senate hearing on 19 April, introduced by the Senate Majority Whip, Senator Lena Gonzalez, and co-sponsored by the Indigenous Environmental Network. If the Government really want to be world-leading, they are going to have to catch up.

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

My Lords, I commend the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh of Pickering, for emphasising the mitigation hierarchy in her amendment and for her speech. It is something that is really important to take notice of offshore. I was pleased to add my name to the amendment of my noble friend Lady Sheehan, and I have great sympathy with the amendment from the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett. However, I will speak primarily to Amendment 131.

I guess that if this Bill had come before this House three years ago, I would not have even contemplated putting an amendment down about no more coal, because it would have been totally and absolutely obvious that it would be a really stupid thing for any nation—let alone the United Kingdom—to do. However, we are in the situation where we have the Government saying that a coalmine in Cumbria should actually go ahead. I put this amendment down because I now wonder, if we have one, what else could happen. It is not specifically about Cumbria, but Cumbria is important.

Let us look at Cumbria for a moment. First, the issue does not revolve just around the production of coking coal for steel. That is estimated to be only 15% of production. The other 85% is expected to be exported. Of course, once that coal leaves our shores, we have absolutely no control over it; it is a commercial decision. We have no control over what that coal is used for, and almost certainly it is going to be used for energy and power generation. Even if we take that 15%, which is supposedly for coking coal, we have a situation where the UK steel industry is actually moving away from carbon-intensive methods into green steel. At the moment, we are some way behind our friends and colleagues in the European Union, in that they have some 38 green steel plants under plan and 10 operating at the moment, all mainly green hydrogen produced by electrolysis. The one proposed in the UK is blue hydrogen with carbon capture and storage, but that is the future. The future is not steel produced by coking coal.

So, in a way, the Cumbria mine project should be unacceptable to us, yet Michael Gove, who I had huge respect for when he was Defra Secretary of State and who introduced a huge number of important environmental improvements and plans that are still echoing beyond his tenure in that role, in December last year—only five months ago—approved the plan for that coal mine. Rather cynically, he approved it up to 2049, one year before we have to have net zero in the United Kingdom.

One of the main reasons I have tabled this amendment, apart from the fact that I would not have thought it even possible that the United Kingdom would contemplate opening a new coal mine, is our international reputation. Of course, as Members will remember, we were the president of COP 26. We had a very successful conference in Glasgow and most of us—all of us, probably—congratulated Alok Sharma on the work he did as president of COP 26. During that conference, the UK Government put out a press release about their own success. This was in November 2021, only some 18 months ago, and it heralds:

“The end of coal—the single biggest contributor to climate change—is in sight thanks to the UK securing a 190-strong coalition of countries and organisations at COP26, with countries such as Indonesia, South Korea, Poland, Vietnam, and Chile announcing clear commitments to phase out coal power”.


The end of coal; that is the message.

The BEIS Minister at the time, someone called Kwasi Kwarteng—noble Lords may have heard of him—said:

“Today marks a milestone moment in our global effort to tackle climate change as nations from all corners of the world unite in Glasgow to declare that coal has no part to play in our future power generation. Spearheaded by the UK’s COP26 Presidency, today’s ambitious commitments made by our international partners demonstrate that the end of coal is in sight. The world is moving in the right direction, standing ready to seal coal’s fate and embrace the environmental and economic benefits of building a future that is powered by clean energy”.


I applaud that statement. It is strong, determined and absolutely to the point. Yet we are about to have a coal mine that will produce coal not just for an outdated steel technology but to be used for power generation.

I am very proud of Britain’s reputation on climate change. On my Benches and others we have criticised many aspects, but we have shown, over coalition Governments, Labour Governments and even the present Conservative Government, that we have moved forward—further, in many ways, than our fellow G7 countries. That is why it is absolutely wrong that we should trash that reputation by one decision to open a new UK coal mine. Who knows? If that happens once, it can happen again. That is why this amendment is so important.

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle]

134: After Clause 264, insert the following new Clause—
“Community and Smaller-scale Electricity Export Guarantee Scheme(1) Within six months of the passing of this Act, the Secretary of State must by regulations require licensed energy suppliers with more than 150,000 customers (“eligible licensed suppliers”) to purchase electricity exports from sites including those operated by community groups, that generate low carbon electricity with a capacity below 5MW.(2) Fossil fuelled local power plants with a capacity of less than 5MW are not eligible for participation in the Community and Smaller-scale Electricity Export Guarantee Scheme, with the exception of a local combined heat and power plant that generates electricity ancillary to its purpose of providing heat for local heat networks.(3) “Fossil fuel” has the meaning given in section 101(4).(4) Licensed energy suppliers with fewer than 150,000 customers may also purchase electricity exports from the sites defined above provided that they do so on the terms set out by the regulations.(5) The regulations must require that eligible licensed suppliers—(a) offer to those sites a minimum export price set annually by the Gas and Electricity Markets Authority (“GEMA”),(b) offer to those sites a minimum contract period of five years, and(c) allow the exporting site to end the contract after no more than one year.(6) Within six months of the passing of this Act, GEMA must—(a) set an annual minimum export price for those sites that has regard to current wholesale energy prices and inflation in energy prices and the wider economy,(b) introduce a registration system for exporting sites meeting the requirements set out in subsection (1) and wanting to access these export purchases,(c) define specifications for the smart export meters required by such sites, (d) define “low carbon electricity” in such a way that it includes renewable generation technology and may include other technology with extremely low carbon dioxide emissions,(e) define requirements for an exporting site generating low carbon electricity with a capacity of less than 5MW to be registered as a Community or Smaller-scale Energy site, and maintain a register of such sites.(7) To access the export purchase agreements defined in this section exporters must—(a) register their site with GEMA,(b) install a smart export meter that meets specifications defined by GEMA, and(c) notify GEMA if their ownership structure meets the definition of a Community or Smaller-scale Energy site.(8) All licensed suppliers providing such purchase agreements must report annually to GEMA—(a) the number and capacity of Community or Smaller-scale Energy sites that have been offered contracts to purchase electricity and the number of these that agreed those contracts,(b) the total amount of electricity purchased under these agreements, and(c) the price paid for that electricity.(9) OFGEM shall make and publish a report annually on the operation of the export purchase agreements, setting out—(a) the number of Community or Smaller-scale Energy sites contracted with licensed energy suppliers under this section and the total amount of electricity purchased,(b) the licensed suppliers contracting with Community or Smaller-scale Energy sites and the amount of electricity each has purchased,(c) an assessment of how the mechanism is performing and the contribution it is making to delivering secure and low carbon electricity supplies, and(d) recommendations on how the mechanism could be improved.(10) Regulations under this section are subject to the affirmative procedure.”Member's explanatory statement
This and related amendments aim to provide a framework to support the growth of community and smaller-scale energy schemes and provide annual reporting on the success of the framework in increasing the number of such schemes.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Boycott, being unable to be here and following on from our debate earlier, I beg to test the opinion of the House on Amendment 134. In doing so, I note the acknowledgement that Amendment 135 is consequential on Amendment 134.

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle]

135: After Clause 264, insert the following new Clause—
“Community and Smaller-scale Electricity Supplier Services Scheme(1) Within six months of the passing of this Act, the Secretary of State must by regulations require licensed energy suppliers with more than 150,000 customers (“eligible licensed suppliers”) to offer a Community and Smaller-scale Electricity Supplier Service agreement to any registered Community or Smaller-scale Energy site under section (Community and Smaller-scale Electricity Export Guarantee Scheme) for the purposes of allowing that site to sell electricity to local consumers.(2) The Community and Smaller-scale Electricity Supplier Service agreement will require licensed suppliers to make a community or smaller-scale energy tariff available to consumers local to the exporting site that has regard to the export price paid or that would be paid to that site under section (Community and Smaller-scale Electricity Export Guarantee Scheme).(3) The eligible licensed supplier may limit the total number of consumers the community or smaller-scale energy tariff is available to such that the total annual energy sold under the tariff is broadly equivalent to the total annual energy generated by the site.(4) The eligible licensed supplier will be the registrant for the meters of any local consumer purchasing energy under the community or smaller-scale energy tariff. (5) The eligible licensed supplier may charge a reasonable fee for the provision of services under this section provided that it has regard to distribution, licensing and regulatory costs and any guidance provided by GEMA.(6) The eligible licensed supplier shall return any money raised through the sale of energy under a tariff set up under this section to the Community or Smaller-scale Energy site, save for the fee allowed under subsection (5).(7) Eligible licensed suppliers must report annually to GEMA on—(a) the number and capacity of community energy groups or smaller-scale sites offered Community and Smaller-scale Electricity Supplier Service agreements and the number who have contracted to use them,(b) the total amount of electricity purchased under these agreements, and(c) the tariffs for each agreement.(8) GEMA must—(a) produce guidance on the level of community or smaller-scale energy tariffs and on the reasonable charges that eligible suppliers may charge for Community and Smaller-scale Electricity Supplier Service Agreements,(b) make and publish a report annually on the operation of the export purchase agreements, setting out—(i) the number of community energy projects or smaller-scale sites contracted with licensed energy suppliers under this section and the total amount of electricity purchased,(ii) the licensed suppliers contracting with community energy groups or smaller-scale sites and the amount of electricity each has purchased,(iii) an assessment of how the mechanism is performing and the contribution it is making to delivering secure and low carbon electricity supplies, and(iv) recommendations for how Community and Smaller-scale Electricity Supplier Service agreements could be improved.(9) Regulations under this section are subject to the affirmative procedure.”Member’s explanatory statement
This and related amendments would guarantee small energy generators a stable tariff for selling their energy based on current market rates and establish a local energy supply mechanism to enable community or smaller-scale low carbon generation schemes to sell directly to local people, along the lines of the Local Electricity Bill tabled in the last session of Parliament.

Energy Bill [HL]

Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle Excerpts

Report stage
Tuesday 28th March 2023 Lords Chamber

I ask the Government to think again about these proposals. As the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, said, they have industry-wide support. I will listen carefully to my noble friend’s response.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, I am aware of the desire to get to votes, so I shall be brief. It is a great pleasure to follow the noble Baronesses, Lady Altmann and Lady Hayman. They have overwhelmingly made the case for Amendment 133 and the need for the systems operator to have that net-zero duty.

I shall briefly address Amendment 1, which sets the tone and direction of this debate in an important way. The noble Lord, Lord Ravensdale, and the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, made the case for the need for an energy system to deliver for net zero. I want to focus on one word in Amendment 1—“resilience” and the need to increase it. We are now in the age of shocks. So many shocks have hit the world and our country, whether they be climatic, health or economic. There is a need for resilience. There is an idea that we can pick off these new, shiny technologies and say, “Great, we will chase after this or after that”. We should look at the basics, starting with an energy system which understands that the cleanest, greenest, cheapest, best possible energy is the one you do not need to use.

I am not sure that the report is out yet, but it is worth noting anecdotally the interesting experiments in energy demand that have happened during the winter. They will ensure that we can manage the peaks of demand and have less need for generation overall. I wanted to set out that focus on resilience because, in later amendments, we will get to the issue of community energy—local energy generation systems in local communities, spread around our islands. These will give us a real foundation of resilience and security that we desperately need for the future.

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

My Lords, perhaps for the purpose of the whole of Report, I should declare my interest at chair of Aldustria Ltd, which is concerned with battery storage.

I liked the speech by the noble Lord, Lord Ravensdale, today, as well as the speeches he gave on the levelling-up Bill debate yesterday evening. There is an important need for an understandable programme that moves us forward—a route map that works, rather than just targets and slogans. Of course, we will have Green Day on Thursday. When the Minister replies, could he give us a few clues as to what will be said then? The House would be all ears and grateful for the advance information. I thought that the net-zero report, commissioned by the Government and produced by his honourable colleague, Chris Skidmore MP, was an excellent document. I hope that the Government can say that we will be moving ahead in a comprehensive way in much of the area under discussion.

I will speak mainly about the three amendments that we have around Ofgem. It is just stark staringly obvious that Ofgem, our regulator for the energy industry, should have a net-zero objective. I cannot see how you can argue against that, for all the reasons that the noble Baronesses, Lady Hayman and Lady Altmann, have gone through so well. If there was one example of that to me, it is that Ofgem has clearly been very effective in its own mind at making decisions for customers of today but has been utterly unable to make decisions for customers of future generations. That area of the grid is now utterly incapable of delivering; whether it is offshore, onshore or developments on the residential side, those connections and that grid are unable to help us to move towards those net-zero objectives. On connection dates, I know one of 2035, which just happens to be the year when the Government’s target is to have finished decarbonising the electricity grid. Clearly we are not going to make that unless we move it forward very quickly, and I have concerns that we will already not be able to meet it.

The Minister and others in his position have said, all the time, “This is not necessary—it is already covered.” However, those examples already given by the noble Baronesses in the debate show that the directions and the objectives that the Government now have are not sufficient, and that this needs to change. We need to change it now, otherwise our decarbonisation of the grid by 2035, let alone net zero by 2050, will be missed. That cannot be allowed; these amendments must be part of the Bill.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, and to partly agree and partly disagree with her comments. I speak in strong opposition to government Amendment 58, which is the substantive amendment in this group, buried in the depths of a whole lot of technical detail.

It is worth focusing on what Amendment 58 actually does. The Minister said this in his introduction, but it deserves to be highlighted. The Minister acknowledged that these are not renewable sources of energy, but what we are doing here is to treat them as though they are renewable. That is an important distinction, which clearly needs to be made. It is quite significant.

As the noble Lord, Lord Ravensdale, said earlier, we have been debating this Bill for eight months or so. The second element of the government amendment, referring to nuclear-derived fuels, reflects something that the noble Lord brought to Committee but, so far as I can recollect across those eight months, recycled carbon fuels have suddenly popped here at Report, without any previous debate at all. That is something that presents an issue when it comes to scrutiny and examination—an issue which the other place, when this Bill reaches it, may well need to look at and consider in some detail, given that your Lordships’ House has not had the opportunity to look at recycled carbon fuels along with some of the issues that the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, raised and which I am going to expand on.

It is worth highlighting that nuclear-derived fuel is now an extremely hot political issue—no pun intended—in Europe. Germany, Spain and Denmark are among the countries opposed to nuclear-derived fuel being classed as a renewable there, in a debate that is going on this very week, as we are meeting now in your Lordships’ House. The opposition from those states says that nuclear energy does not belong within renewable targets and that there is a risk that treating it as though it was renewable will undermine the massive expansion of renewables that we need to hit our climate goals. So this is a replacement-type issue—and that raises a very important point.

When I speak in opposition to this amendment, I am not necessarily saying that we should not, in a limited way, be using recycled carbon fuel of the industrial waste type to which the noble Lord, Lord Ravensdale, referred, or even, while we have the nuclear plants, nuclear-derived fuel. The question is whether it receives treatment as though it was a renewable when it is not a renewable—that is the question that arises from this amendment.

On recycled carbon fuel, as the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, said, there are some grave concerns about burning fossil fuel wastes, particularly plastics, in incinerators or hydrolysis processes to produce fuels. I can quote some figures on this. When municipal solid waste containing 65% of non-biogenic waste, which is usually mostly plastic, is turned into fuel, the emissions range between 52.6 and 124 grams of carbon dioxide equivalent per megajoule. When the waste is all non-renewable, the impact is actually worse than conventional diesel, petrol or kerosene. Even when there are some reductions, at best they are 1% to 14%.

We come to a broader issue, and here I mention the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, who I see is not in his place. Yesterday, on the levelling-up Bill, he was expounding the virtues of the circular economy. Of course, in a circular economy, and thinking about the waste pyramid, the best thing we can possibly do is reduce the amount of waste. There is a risk if we are providing a way out at the other end for plastics, subsidising them as though they were renewables: this could encourage the production of more plastics, which is absolutely the last thing this planet needs, both for climate reasons and for all the other reasons of human health and well-being, microplastics and all the issues we have on a planet that is choked with the stuff already.

There is also the problem, of course, that while recycling is the third-best option—a bad option but not as bad as the others on the waste pyramid—anything that encourages the production of more plastics is an issue. I am aware that the Minister, when we were debating methane earlier this month, complained that people keep quoting scientists at him. I am afraid I am going to do that again, and I make no apology for continuing to do so, because I believe that we should have evidence-based policy that relies on the science. A study was published in Energy in 2017, “The utilisation of oils produced from plastic waste at different pyrolysis temperatures in a DI diesel engine”. I apologise that that is a bit of a mouthful. To boil down the point of this study, there are different ways of doing pyrolysis with fuels made from plastic, but whichever way you do it the air pollution results are worse than diesel.

Many Members of your Lordships’ House will be aware that my noble friend Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb has taken the Clean Air (Human Rights) Bill right through the House and has received very wide backing. There is a real issue here: climate is only one of the many threats we face. Air pollution is a very serious issue. Essentially, we are in a position where it is very clear that we have to stop burning stuff and polluting our planet, whether that is carbon dioxide pollution or other pollutants that come from burning fossil fuels or organic materials. There is a very grave danger in this amendment, I suggest.

Given that we are where we are, I am not going to call for a vote on this; I do not think your Lordships’ House is ready. I do not think we have had sufficient debate on this issue to do that, but I very much hope that today’s debate—and others may contribute as well—will be taken on board when the Bill gets to the other place.

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

My Lords, I also have great concern about this amendment. It seems to me that, on renewable transport fuels, we have a government amendment, in a group of some 20 amendments or more, that changes the taxonomy in the UK, exactly as was said by the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, and the definition of a renewable fuel. I do not think that is particularly good practice; it is the wrong way to do this. I hope that the Commons, when this goes down the other end, will debate it rather more, because it requires a lot more thought.

I can get my head around the nuclear bit with hydrogen, which has now been well explained to me. I was trying to understand this amendment, I must admit, before the noble Lord, Lord Ravensdale, spoke, but whether it is renewable or not is a debate to be had. I do not have quite such an issue over that, maybe, but it needs to be debated fully. What I have a problem with is more the carbon side, because what we are talking about is no different from energy from waste. Energy from waste is one of the dirtiest forms of energy that is produced. It has other benefits—it does not produce landfill and all that sort of side—but it is not, in any description, a renewable fuel. So I too have great reservations about this amendment. Clearly I am not going to oppose it here today, but I very much hope that the other end of the building will give this much greater scrutiny and see it as a major decision around the taxonomy of renewable fuels and renewable energy when the Bill reaches there.

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this debate. Before I engage in the detail of the amendments, let me respond to the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett. I am sure I have never said that we should not listen to scientists; of course we should, but we should accept that there are sometimes different scientific opinions. I notice that the noble Baroness is very keen to listen to scientists on some occasions, but the Greens are totally opposed to listening to the vast majority of scientists who say that nuclear should provide an essential way of decarbonising the country’s economy.

By way of example, perhaps she would like to look at the mess her Green friends have got themselves into in Germany by their irrational objections to nuclear policy: they have ended up, now that they are in government, supporting the eradication of villages to open more lignite mines, the dirtiest form of coal production, because they got rid of all their nuclear capacity. Obviously they could not have predicted the gas shortages that would come along, but this is the problem you get yourself into with idealistic policies without any practical effect in the real world. Thankfully, I do not think there is any chance of the noble Baroness or her party being in government in the UK to make similar errors and mistakes.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

I have to correct the noble Lord and point out that there are Green Ministers in government in the UK.

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I accept the noble Baroness’s point—yes, that was an error on my behalf. Of course, Patrick Harvie is my opposite number in Scotland and I discuss these matters with him quite often, although we have never had a nuclear discussion yet.

Turning to the amendments, I thank the noble Lords, Lord Ravensdale, Lord Teverson and Lord Lennie, and the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, for their contributions on Amendment 58. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Ravensdale, for his engagement and pay tribute to the excellent work of my officials in drafting the amendments. In response to the very appropriate request by the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, for clarification on fossil fuel waste, both the renewable transport fuel obligation and the forthcoming sustainable aviation fuel mandate are underpinned by strict sustainability and eligibility criteria. This includes requiring qualifying fuels to provide minimum greenhouse gas savings when compared with the fossil fuels they displace.

Fuels produced from nuclear energy are considered to be zero carbon; however, it will be important that we do not incentivise the diversion of electricity generated by nuclear power stations from current uses. The RTFO already includes criteria to ensure that renewable energy—

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

Perhaps the Minister might wish to correct himself. He just referred to nuclear energy as zero carbon. It is of course, as under the Government’s own classification, low carbon.

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I think I said fuels produced from nuclear energy, but never mind.

The RTFO already includes criteria to ensure that renewable energy used for fuel production is additional to that which would otherwise be supplied, and the same principles would be developed for nuclear power.

With regards to the waste hierarchy, this policy makes effective use of what otherwise would be difficult to manage waste. RCFs are non-recyclable fossil wastes. Utilising these types of wastes to synthesise fuel is a better end-of-life fate than landfill or incineration. It will be important to mitigate risks and ensure adherence to the UK waste hierarchy, so we are in the process of concluding a consultation on detailed policy proposals to ensure that RCFs contribute to and meet our wider objective of effectively reducing the greenhouse gas emissions of fuels. Sustainability criteria are being carefully formulated in consultation with a wide range of scientists, technical experts, other government departments, fuel suppliers and wider stakeholders to ensure that the risks are carefully managed and mitigated. I hope that provides appropriate reassurance to the noble Baroness.

Energy Bill [HL]

Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle Excerpts

Report stage
Tuesday 28th March 2023 Lords Chamber

I fully support this group of amendments. I hope this is not the last we will hear of this debate; I am sure it will pass down to the other end. I am grateful that the regulations will now be on the basis of “must”, not “may”. I do not think that goes far enough, but I look forward to the Minister’s reply.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, I offer Green support for the amendments in the names of the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, and the noble Baroness, Lady Sheehan. The economic arguments for why hydrogen as a home heating mechanism makes no sense at all have already been very clearly made. I aim not to repeat anything that has been said but simply to add a couple of points to it. I very much agree with the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, about prepayment meters; that was written in very large letters on my paper, but I have now crossed it out since it has already been covered.

In this debate we have not perhaps highlighted the degree of physical disruption. The noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, referred to receiving many expressions of distress from the affected villages; I have also received those. In the Government’s own terminology, research shows that it will

“undoubtedly result in some physical disruption to the property.”

Those are the Government’s own words. What that actually means is that we will have to see pipework surveyed and possibly changed; gas meters replaced; boilers, gas hobs and gas cookers replaced, as well as four-inch ventilation holes in the area of the boiler and the appliance to make it compatible for 100% hydrogen. The biggest challenge of all, perhaps, is the small in-house pipes that may frequently be embedded in walls or underneath floors. Think about the kind of disruption in an older house; just tracking those down, finding where they are and establishing whether they are adequate for hydrogen is massively disruptive. Every home will have to be checked and double-checked to make sure it is safe before hydrogen can be piped into it.

The other safety point that has not been raised yet, but I think really should be, is that burning hydrogen in the air produces nitrous oxides, which are a pollutant in their own right. It is often said that when you are using hydrogen, water is the only by-product, but that is the case only when hydrogen is used in fuel cells. Nitrogen dioxide is a key air pollutant that is harmful in its own right and is a precursor to other concerning materials including fine particulate matter and ozone.

I have just one final thought. I understood the considered narrative of the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, about how we got to where we are, but when I go around your Lordships’ House and see the people who are propounding the idea of hydrogen for home heating, I notice that it is of course the existing industry and the vested industry interests. That cannot be how we decide our energy future, in so many areas but perhaps particularly obviously in this one.

[Lord Lennie (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, and all other noble Lords and Baronesses who have spoken. While I may agree with the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, that these trials are not a good thing, they are upon us and therefore we have to deal with what we face rather than what we might not have faced had we stopped the trials in the first place. I do not think the Government are about to abandon the plan, and therefore we have some concerns about the plan as it goes ahead.

Clause 111 makes certain modifications to the Gas Act 1986 so that the person running the trial has clear grounds to enter property. That causes me concern that they can carry out essential works and safety checks and disconnect gas supply. Can the Minister deal with some questions? He may not be able to deal with them tonight and may want to write to me later. When can property be entered? What safeguards will be in place? What burden of proof will be applied on entry? When can a property not be entered? Will future guidance be published and, if so, when can we expect it to be with us? The Labour amendment

“requires the Secretary of State to take a number of steps with regard to the areas and people affected by hydrogen grid conversion trials and to make arrangements for Ofgem to provide information, alternative heat sources and offer the right of opt out (which would disapply the right of gas transporters to enter premises to disconnect). It would also require the Environment Agency to monitor and report on hydrogen escape, and the Health and Safety Executive to monitor safety implications.”

Subsection (1) provides the Secretary of State with a power to make regulations by statutory instrument to require a person conducting the trial to follow specified steps to ensure consumers are appropriately informed about the trial and the need for them to be disconnected from their gas supply before it happens. This clause also provides the Secretary of State with a power to make regulations to introduce consumer protections for people who are, or are likely to be, affected by the trial, and a list of examples is provided.

Our amendment sets out a number of reasonable steps, ensures that people are not disadvantaged, whether they participate or take an alternative, and ensures an alternative is offered and they can opt out. The trials are much more popular in Redcar, I am led to believe, than they are in Whitby. An exchange of correspondence took place between Graham Stuart, the Minister at DESNZ, and Justin Madders MP and Louise Gittens, who is the leader of Cheshire West and Chester Council. To quote from the letter from Graham Stuart, he said:

“I fully agree that local support for the trial is essential … However, we will only go ahead with a trial in an area where there is strong local support … I do agree it is very important this context is set out clearly, particularly for the communities in the areas across the country served by the gas networks which the networks are assessing.”


If that is true, certainly in Whitby, I do not think a trial will proceed, but I may be wrong. I would welcome the Minister’s assessment of the correspondence and what he makes of it in relation to the trial. It is not so much about cost, although there is a cost, and it is not so much about safety, although there is a safety issue; it is about local democracy and whether they want the thing to go ahead in the first place.

Carbon Budgets: Methane Flaring

Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle Excerpts

Thursday 9th March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

My noble friend makes a good point. Some 30% of our emissions are from the waste sector, which is one of the sectors where we are doing our best to try to reduce emissions because the gas is valuable and can be used, and indeed it is trapped on some sites. We have a system of supporting anaerobic digesters to deal with the waste; they can produce green gas that is then fed into the gas main.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, returning to oil and gas methane emissions, the last time we discussed this at Oral Questions on 22 February I raised the same point that the noble Baroness, Lady Sheehan did, that the figures are heavily disputed and academic research suggests that methane releases are five times higher than the UK’s official figures. The Minister said then that the Government would

“make sure that the information and published figures are as accurate as possible”.—[Official Report, 22/2/23; col. 1648.]

What progress has been made since then on ensuring the accuracy and reliability of figures for methane releases from the oil and gas industry?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, the Minister might like to take this opportunity to withdraw the slur that he made in his answer to me against scientists from the Energy Institute at Colorado State University, the department of civil and environmental engineering at Princeton University, and the Princeton School of Public and International Affairs, whose work was published in the journal Energy & Environmental Science. Does the Minister agree that that is a reputable source?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

People are always quoting various scientists at me, and for one opinion there are others. I am confident in the figures that the UK uses for our emissions.

Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Bill

Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle Excerpts

Committee stage
Thursday 2nd March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Inglewood (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, being a bear of rather little brain, it has taken me quite a long time to digest the extremely helpful and valuable contribution of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas. He approached the issue from the perspective of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, but, given that the United Kingdom is a single market, which is a single integrated entity, what will the consequences be for England of the kind of overlooking that he described? We do not seem to have touched on that.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, I will share the deep concerns of Green parties around these islands about the issues that we have been discussing. Like Members from all corners of your Lordships’ House, Green parties would like to see the Bill thrown out altogether, although the proposal of the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, of a pause and a chance to think and understand is, at least, a positive alternative that we should consider. We have heard lots of metaphors—the noble Lord, Lord Wilson, gave us one. I am imagining the fudge, which you have unwisely packed in your suitcase when flying back from a hot place, dripping out all over everything and making a mess everywhere. That is possibly a useful metaphor for where the Bill has put us.

I put on the record a highly unusual and important joint letter written to the Financial Times on 28 November by the Cabinet Secretary for the Constitution from the Scottish Government and the Counsel General and Minister for the Constitution from the Welsh Government. A small part of it said:

“This bill allows UK ministers to take decisions in policy areas that are devolved to the Welsh senedd and the Scottish parliament and to do so without consultation or the need for their consent.”


That is essentially what we have been talking about.

There has been an implicit point in our debate that has not been made explicitly. I will draw particularly on the work of Dr Viviane Gravey from Queen’s University Belfast, who points out that the laws have been transposed into the nations of these islands in different ways, so we have huge diversity. That means that the devolved nations cannot help each other out. A natural situation would be that, with the issues of resources that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas, raised, ideally, people would help each other out and work co-operatively. In most cases, that will not work in this situation because each nation is different.

I will briefly highlight some of the ways in which the nations are different. On Wales, we have not discussed this much but there is a huge impact on the well-being of future generations Act, which has to be considered in the context of the Bill mentioning no increase in “regulatory burden”. That and the well-being of future generations Act are profoundly contradictory, and I do not see any way of resolving that contradiction.

Many people with vastly more knowledge than I—including the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, and others—have commented on Northern Ireland. I saw some telling figures. Until autumn, when the caretaker Ministers ceased to hold office, the Department for Infrastructure had identified 500 rules and regulations and the Department of Agriculture and Rural Development had identified 600 rules and regulations—experts describe that as the tip of the iceberg. Given all of the issues that Northern Ireland needs to deal with, dumping that on it as well is simply unacceptable. That is why, in the context of this group, Amendment 29 from the noble Baroness, Lady Humphreys, and others at least takes us to the core of the issues that we need to address.

On Scotland, the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh of Pickering, covered a great deal of this, but I will mention some conclusions from the Scottish Human Rights Commission, which said that this would create incredible legal uncertainty about human rights and the ability to deliver them, and it would make it difficult to enforce those rights if the Bill goes through in its current form.

The noble Lord, Lord Cormack, made an important point about the tone and direction of travel here. The Windsor agreement is a significant reset in our approach to our relationship with Brussels. The tone and approach have changed in a positive manner. I suggest that we need to see a similar change in tone and approach at Westminster, where, under previous Prime Ministers, we saw an extremely aggressive and unco-operative approach towards the nations of these islands. We need a different tone and approach in this not very united kingdom. Dealing with the Bill—stopping it, pausing it or at least implementing something like Amendment 29—is absolutely essential.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

I will refer specifically to Amendment 29, in the names of my noble friend Lady Humphreys and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope. The Welsh Government and the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee of the Senedd have both examined the Bill closely and they did not like what they saw. They agree with each other that the Senedd’s consent is required for all clauses and schedules, with the exception of Clause 18. However, given the background of a lack of consultation and dialogue, to which several noble Lords referred, we are not likely to get that consent.

The problem is that the Bill does not just infringe on devolved powers—it tramples all over them. The Welsh Government have called it a “power grab”. The injury to devolution throughout the Bill is compounded by the lack of preparation and background information provided by the Government. These issues have been well rehearsed here—the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, referred to them in detail. The Welsh Government and the Senedd committee agree that, for a start, Clause 2 needs to be amended to grant Welsh Ministers similar powers to those granted to UK Ministers to extend the sunset date in relation to devolved matters.

On sunsetting, June 2026—the fallback date—is of maximum practical inconvenience to the devolved Administrations because it coincides with elections. There are two possibilities for how the date was plucked out of the air: one is that it was chosen deliberately to make life difficult for the devolved Administrations, and the other—I agree that this is probably more likely—is that it is an example of the sort of poor, substandard legislation that you write when you do not consult the people affected. It would have been so easy to choose a different date.

The Senedd committee’s report reflects concerns already expressed about deficiencies in the dashboard and emphasises the need for it

“to identify how each piece of retained EU law falls across reserved and devolved competencies.”

Without doubt, it is essential that, when Welsh and Scottish REUL is added to the dashboard, it is clearly identified. So when will this happen? Can it be confirmed that this will happen? If it does not happen, that means that this truly is a Government just for England. It is essential that Wales and Scotland legislation is identified.

The committee’s report also emphasised the pressure of time, both on legislatures and the Governments in Scotland and Wales. It is essential that all REUL that the Government do not intend to save or reform is identified by the end of September and laid before all the legislatures of the UK.

Amendment 49, in my name and that of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, is designed to probe these issues. The Welsh Government have made no secret of the pressure they are under—other noble Lords have referred to that—and the Minister acknowledged in her response to me last week that there was an issue of resources. The simple time pressure is compounded by the lack of coherent information from the Government. It is more difficult to get on and do what you are supposed to be doing if you do not know what that is. What will the Government’s policy be in relation to any failure by a devolved Administration to update their chosen items of REUL and obliterate as required references to EU law? They might choose not to do it, or they might just not have the time to do it. Does that mean that the UK Government will take over the role of the devolved Administrations and take things out of their hands if by mistake or due to lack of resources they cannot get round to it?

As I understand it, the devolved Administrations are also required to search for REUL made by Secretaries of State prior to devolution, which seems tantamount to having to do the job of the UK Government for them. Have I got that right? Can it be clarified, please?

As many noble Lords have said, the state of the dashboard is central to the pressures that I have referred to. The latest count of Welsh REUL on the dashboard is apparently in the teens. I am assured that when they have counted it all it will be in the many hundreds, and the Government have not yet been able to take account of that situation. What estimate do the Government have of how many hundreds of pieces of REUL both Scotland and Wales will have? It will be different numbers, obviously, because law has developed differently, and they have different powers. I noted in an earlier debate that the Government have failed to clarify when or even if we will get a final list, when or even if we will be told what legislation is to be dropped entirely, and when or even if we will be given a definitive list of legislation to be amended. All this is essential not just to us here doing our work but to both the Scottish and Welsh legislatures, and I hope that it will in time be relevant and important to the Northern Ireland Assembly as well when it is up and running.

On Northern Ireland, I do not want to repeat the vital questions asked by the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, and my noble friend Lady Ludford, but I emphasise the importance of them. In the past 36 hours or so, I have been trying to get my head around the implications for this Bill of the Windsor Framework by working through a couple of examples—not quite at the level of detail with which the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas, did so, but in my own humble way. I think that the Windsor Framework probably requires substantial rewriting of this Bill; it certainly requires substantial reinterpretation—I understand that because it is such a skeletal Bill it might be possible to bend it to the new circumstances, but we need a new interpretation. Please can we at the very least have a major ministerial Statement on the impact of Windsor Framework on REUL which has an impact on the Stormont brake? The three are intertwined. We need more than a letter; we need the opportunity to ask questions and to understand how it will work.