Public Authorities (Fraud, Error and Recovery) Bill

Debate between Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle and Baroness Sherlock

Committee stage
Wednesday 25th June 2025 Grand Committee

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, I hope I have made the case, in speaking to the amendment that we have been discussing, that the law already provides those protections—or it will do so when the provisions of the data Act are implemented, if those changes have not already been made. For my money, we could not have been clearer that the Bill creates no new automated decision-making powers. DWP and fraud and error decisions are always made by humans. There is a debate to be had, broadly for the future, which is where the work being done by DSIT is really important. That is where protections across government to future-proof things need to be brought in—not in this Bill, which does not introduce any new automated decision-making powers.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this debate, in particular the noble Viscount, Lord Younger of Leckie, for his strong support, and the noble Lord, Lord Palmer. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, for his expert contribution, which essentially said what I was about to say in my summing up: we are not necessarily talking about what this Government are doing; we are talking about ensuring that the legislation is there to put controls on what future Governments do.

This is the second time in a week that I have basked in the warm glow of support from everyone except the Government; I could get used to it. It is as the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, said. If the Minister is saying that this will happen, why not put it in the Bill? I will go and have a look at what she said about the data Bill. I suspect that I am probably involved in that one, too—I have so many Bills at the moment that I slightly lose track. We will look at this carefully before Report.

This will be my final contribution in this Committee because I will shortly have to run to the Chamber. We have had very fruitful debates. It is a pity that such an important Bill was not discussed in the Chamber; it will impact on many of the most vulnerable people in our communities. It is crucial that we get the Bill right and that it is seen to have had the full and proper scrutiny it deserves, but I think everyone in this Committee has done their best and we have made a good foundation to take forward to Report. I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Public Authorities (Fraud, Error and Recovery) Bill

Debate between Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle and Baroness Sherlock

Committee stage
Monday 16th June 2025 Grand Committee

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, the Minister made a powerful point about the position of the current Opposition. As she identified, the old-age pension being covered in the former iteration of the Bill caused an enormous amount of concern. Obviously, all the groups we are talking about are potentially vulnerable, but old-age pensioners are particularly vulnerable and prone to be stressed and worried about this situation. Can the Minister assure me that the Government will not put the old-age state pension underneath the Bill?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness for giving me the opportunity to recover my voice and to say that not only will we not do it but the Bill says explicitly that the measure cannot be used on the state pension, so there is no question of it being used for that.

The case load is really straightforward. Fraud in the state pension is so low that it is the one area where the NAO does not qualify the accounts. We have to have a rationale. The reason we have chosen these three benefits initially is specifically because they are the areas where fraud is significant, and we know the information is out there that could make a difference. I can absolutely reassure the noble Baroness on that point: without amending primary legislation, this measure cannot be used on the state pension, and the Government will not do that. Any subsequent Government would have to change the law to be able to do it. I am grateful to the noble Baroness.

Pension Review: Phase 2

Debate between Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle and Baroness Sherlock

Wednesday 18th December 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

I think that might be slightly above my pay grade. The Government want to make sure that everybody can save an appropriate amount for retirement. For that to work, one of the starting points is that people have to earn enough in their working lives to be able to have an option of saving anything. The measures that the Government have taken, in our plans for jobs and in looking at what we are doing with the national living wage and to try to drive good work, are about trying to drive economic growth, get more people into good jobs and help them to stay there and to grow in their careers. The work has been done around the Get Britain Working White Paper. All the plans around that are trying to get people to develop in their working life and to be more productive to drive economic growth. That is a win-win. It is good for the country and good for individuals and their families.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

Returning to the case of the WASPI women and the Government’s ruling against them, can the Minister tell me whether the fact that the Government have overruled the evidence-based decision of the Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman is likely to be open to legal challenge? If there is a legal challenge, will the fact that the Labour Party campaigned for WASPI women during the election campaign have an impact on the case?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, I think anything is open to legal challenge if one can find a lawyer to take a case. There have been legal challenges in the past on this decision. If there are again challenges, the Government will present their case. The noble Baroness mentioned that the ombudsman looked at the evidence —so did the Government. We looked very carefully at the evidence. One of the things we have been doing for the past six months is going through line by line every piece of evidence that the ombudsman offered, looking at the evidence we have and what we understand, and we reached evidence-driven conclusions. That is the basis on which we made the decision.

I recognise that it is not a decision that everybody is happy with. I recognise that there will be women born in the 1950s who are disappointed. But I am also convinced that most of the disappointment and, indeed, much of the campaigning and noise were actually about the change in the state pension age and its timing, rather than the very narrow decision that the ombudsman took. The ombudsman said that it was simply about the way DWP communicated with people about the state pension age. The ombudsman found that between 1995 and 2004 the communications were absolutely fine. There was a 28-month period when, although other communications were out there, such as campaigns, employer campaigns et cetera, those letters should have been sent earlier. We have accepted that, and if any legal case comes we will present our case in court, as we always do.