Conversion Therapy Prohibition (Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity) Bill [HL]

Baroness Donaghy Excerpts

Friday 9th February 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Donaghy (Lab)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Farmer. His views are held sincerely. I agree with him that there is not just one solution to a problem, but we do not always agree on many issues socially and I am afraid that this is one of them. I thank my friend, the noble Baroness, Lady Burt, for putting herself through this and moving her Private Member’s Bill. There is a certain irony in being told it is badly drafted: I have been here 13 years and have been subjected to sloppy, ill-disciplined Christmas tree legislation from this Government for the whole of that time, so I think it a bit rich that one individual should be accused of that.

The thoughtful contribution from the noble Lord, Lord Altrincham, brought back to us the serious issue of the inadequacies of mental health services and the importance of not risking any diminution in our already inadequate facilities. I come to a slightly different conclusion from him: it is because we have a poor mental health service and because our National Health Service is on its knees that we fail our children and young people in ensuring adequate counselling and facilities and that there is not a two-year waiting list, meaning that what might be a small niggle becomes an absolute mountain. I agree with him that anything that risks that should not be proceeded with. The noble Baroness, Lady Burt, herself said at the beginning of her very measured introduction that she would welcome amendments to her Bill, and I took at face value that that is what this is all about: that we want to fight for our children.

What is key in all this is that all children and young people feel supported, do not feel judged and are therefore able to trust. It is vital that we ensure trusted adults can still support young people and that licensed medical practitioners are able to help young people and build confidence with parents. Trust has been eroded over the years, for various reasons. Ongoing delays to the opening of northern and southern young people’s gender service hubs, extensive waiting lists and disrupted continuity of care will all no doubt serve to erode young people’s trust further still, while leaving parents with less guidance and reassurance as they do their best in these circumstances to support their child.

I think I am all right with giving an anecdote, as the noble Lord, Lord Robathan, did it. No, I did not apply to join the Special Air Service, but I did watch TV at the weekend—that was my activity. It was a private audience with the Pope, involving celebs who had gone on some sort of mission. I have no idea what it was; I only saw the bit I am about to describe. A man in his fifties said to the Pope, “I don’t know what religion I’ve got. I’ve been an outsider all my life because I’m gay and I’m black”. The Pope said to him, through a translator, “Adjectives used to describe people are meaningless”. I thought, “Wow—that is pretty good.” He got up and hugged the guy, they all cried and it was marvellous theatre, but I thought that that reference to using adjectives to describe people very much reflected what the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Bristol has just said: that we want to create a space to make progress on an issue we are not solving. Three previous Prime Ministers have said there is an issue, and we have to try to solve it. We have not succeeded—the noble Lord, Lord Farmer, is quite right—but we have to keep that space so that we can carry on discussing it. As far as I am concerned, this Bill is creating that space to close that adjective box.

[The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Watkins of Tavistock) (CB)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, is taking part remotely.

Industrial Strategy

Baroness Donaghy Excerpts

Thursday 1st February 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Donaghy (Lab)]

I thank my noble friend Lord Watson for initiating this debate and look forward to the maiden speech by the noble Lord, Lord Rosenfield.

It is not that long ago that the Government had an industrial strategy. When the noble Lord, Lord Henley, was Minister at the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy, he referred to it more than 300 times, including Written Answers, between 2017 and 2019. Described as a modern industrial strategy, it covered the Good Work Plan, the environment, safeguarding the post office network, life sciences, productivity and skills training. In a major debate in January 2018, the noble Lord, Lord Henley, referred to contributions by

“the grandfather of industrial strategies”,

the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, and

“the godfather of industrial strategies”,—[Official Report, 8/1/18; col. 105.]

my noble friend Lord Mandelson. He also referred to contributions by my noble friends Lord Eatwell and Lord Chandos. Perhaps they were slightly less optimistic about the Government’s White Paper and he thought their contributions were “Eeyoreish”—difficult to say—but it was clearly central to government strategy, so what happened?

Theresa May went to the Back Benches; the noble Lord, Lord Henley, went to the Back Benches; industrial strategy disappeared from the title of the government department. Andy Haldane, who had been appointed chair of the independent Industrial Strategy Council to oversee the Government’s industrial strategy, commented on its subsequent abolition and the closure of the industrial strategy directorate in the department, saying:

“In the UK, industrial strategy is dead”.


He was lukewarm about the substitute policy, the plan for growth.

Make UK, the body representing the manufacturing industry, has claimed that the lack of a formal strategy is damaging to the UK, regionally and internationally, and called for, as my noble friend Lord Watson said, a long-term national manufacturing plan similar to those in Germany, China and the US. This has been backed up by research from the CEPR and the OECD. Why is the UK the only major economy not to have an industrial strategy? Does the Minister agree with the CBI that “the clock is ticking” for the UK to publish an industrial strategy that can rival other markets in fast-growing green economy sectors?

Ministerial Code: Investigation of Potential Breach

Baroness Donaghy Excerpts

Thursday 25th May 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

I simply do not agree with the right reverend Prelate. The Prime Minister has been clear that professionalism, integrity and accountability are core values of the Government. A number of inquiries have been set up by the Prime Minister. He has moved quickly to set them up and to take steps when they have been completed. Most recently, he moved very quickly on the matter of the Home Secretary, which was causing a distraction earlier in the week. He consulted the independent adviser, who advised that on this occasion further investigation was not necessary, and the Prime Minister accepted that advice. As I said before, we need to be very careful to ensure that the Prime Minister has ultimate responsibility for the Ministerial Code. He reissued it in December when he came to power and he has made it clear that it is important that it is followed.

[Baroness Donaghy (Lab)]

Perhaps I can just ask for clarification from the noble Baroness. There was some discussion in 2018 about whether the Ministerial Code mandated Ministers to behave in a certain way. This related to compliance with international law. The noble Baroness will remember a certain Mr Brandon Lewis, who said in the House of Commons that he intended to break international law

“in a very specific and limited way”.—[Official Report, Commons, 8/9/20; col. 509.]

That led to the resignation of a top civil servant and of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Keen of Elie. However, it did not lead to the resignation of the then Attorney-General, who is the subject of this particular complaint. The young lady is not fit for high office in any case, but surely if the Court of Appeal says that the Ministerial Code does mandate compliance, how on earth can the Government justify any variation?

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

I was on the Back Benches when this important situation occurred in 2018, but I would say that the Ministerial Code is a matter for the Prime Minister and the Prime Minister’s judgment, as the noble Baroness said. I think she was trying to make a point about the current Home Secretary. However, I would say that we should allow the current Home Secretary to get on with her job. The distraction of the last week has been considerable. She is trying to do the right thing in a whole series of areas, from public order to immigration. She has apologised, expressed her regret on the matter of the speed awareness course and paid the fine for speeding. Some feel that that issue has been conflated and is a bit of a distraction. She needs to be given the opportunity to get on. The Prime Minister has looked into the matter and she has written at great length to explain the exact circumstances of it. You always end up looking at an individual case, as the noble Baroness did, but I am clear that this is the right approach.

Rt Hon Dominic Raab MP: Resignation Letter

Baroness Donaghy Excerpts

Thursday 27th April 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

I do not dare to speculate on what the thing in question was. The Civil Service has a fundamental principle of political impartiality so, in considering proposals, that is something they have to look at. If something is improper, then the good civil servant—I used to be one—will point that out to the Minister of the day, and it might be that that is what was meant. Obviously Ministers are advised by civil servants on matters of policy, and it is clear that civil servants sometimes disagree with Ministers.

[Baroness Donaghy (Lab)]

I once asked a senior civil servant who were their favourite Ministers to work with. In confidence, they said Nicholas Ridley and the noble Lord, Lord Mandelson—which in itself is an interesting combination. I asked why, and they said it was because you knew where you stood with them and they were decisive. I think that is the definition of a good Minister. I have never met a civil servant who was disloyal, but I have met people who say that they would rather not receive direct instructions via a spad and would rather speak to a Minister. I think that is not necessarily because of the quality of the spad, but because of the method of avoiding talking to civil servants. Does the Minister agree?

List of Ministers’ Interests and Ministerial Code

Baroness Donaghy Excerpts

Tuesday 25th April 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

The noble Lord asks why the register is not updated on a monthly basis in the same way as the register of interests that applies in our House and in the other place. It is important to understand that they are different. The list published by the independent adviser is a list: it is published every six months as the public endpoint of an ongoing process. Ministers’ interests are declared on appointment and on an ongoing basis to Permanent Secretaries, and are reviewed by the independent adviser. Any changes have to be notified in real time but, because of the nature of ministerial office, the number of new interests is normally fairly small at any point in time, so it makes sense to publish a new list every six months. There was a delay because of changes in government, which the noble Lord will be well aware of.

I started life as a civil servant and I have worked as a Minister with many brilliant civil servants, a view I know is shared by my colleagues. I believe in an independent Civil Service, and its fearless and impartial advice is vital to this country.

[Baroness Donaghy (Lab)]

My Lords, is it not true that the so-called independent adviser is still a creature of the Prime Minister? The Committee on Standards in Public Life made a number of recommendations to improve the situation, most of which were not adopted. Will the Government reconsider those recommendations from the committee and adopt them so that this position could be seen to be genuinely independent and not a creature of the Prime Minister?

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

The Government’s work on reforms to strengthen ethics and integrity in central government is now nearing conclusion and we hope to publish our response soon. There have been a number of reports, including Upholding Standards in Public Life, the recommendations of Sir Nigel Boardman’s report on supply chain finance, and PACAC’s fourth report, so we can look forward to a response.

Beyond Brexit: Institutional Framework (EUC Report)

Baroness Donaghy Excerpts

Monday 6th December 2021 Grand Committee

[Baroness Donaghy (Lab)]

I congratulate the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, on securing this collective debate on reports which were published more than eight months ago. The EU Services Sub-Committee did at least have an opportunity to touch on the report before us in a debate on 22 July on our earlier report, seven months after leaving the EU. It was difficult to draw conclusions then because of the impact of the pandemic and the souring of the atmosphere around the Northern Ireland protocol. Members of the sub-committee had very different views on the wisdom of leaving the EU, and I pay tribute to them for focusing on issues on which we could agree. I also thank Dee Goddard, who was an outstanding clerk to the committee.

The report emphasises how central to the UK economy services are. The UK exported 317 billion of services to the EU and imported 217 billion from the EU in 2019. The UK has consistently run a trade surplus in services. The committee and the services sector welcomed the trade and co-operation agreement on 24 December as being preferable to no agreement, but recognised that significant challenges remained and that negotiations on the shape of UK-EU trade and services relationships would continue in the years to come. We felt that it was in both sides’ mutual interest to ensure that there was a positive and co-operative relationship.

On financial services, our concerns were on equivalences, the need for a deep level of regulatory co-operation between the EU and the UK to help manage future divergence, and the need for Parliament to consider how best to scrutinise the new powers of the regulators. It is clear that we have made little progress on equivalences or on a deep level of regulatory co-operation. It is possible that the larger companies are finding ways around this. However, I have one anxiety and one deep concern.

The financial sector is made up of small companies, mainly outside London. My anxiety is that they will need strong support from government, and I am asking the Minister for assurances on the level of support available to them. My deep concern is about the lack of scrutiny in Parliament of the regulators’ new powers. This, of course, is not necessarily a matter for the Minister. The Treasury Select Committee in the other place has decided not to undertake detailed scrutiny of any changes, and the House of Lords is not giving priority to this either. A separate committee is required to deal with what could be a full-time job.

The Government and regulators now hold significant power in setting financial services regulations. The services committee said that the Financial Services Bill was a missed opportunity and recommended setting up a committee dedicated to scrutiny of the financial services sector. I believe that Parliament at present is not providing proper scrutiny of the changes in the financial sector. There are many other areas of uncertainty that cannot all be covered in time available. On research and education, how much good will would be lost by leaving Erasmus, and would the Turing scheme be an adequate replacement—or, if not a replacement, would there be proper funding? On legal services, there is the question of whether smaller firms would receive sufficient help and advice from the Government, the impact of no agreement on mutual recognition of professional qualifications, and the general issue of mobility of labour.

I want to focus on the creative industries for a minute. They are a hugely important and influential sector, worth £100 billion in 2019 but already hard-hit by the pandemic. The committee expressed deep concern about the potential impact of mobility provisions in the TCA on the more than 2 million people employed in the creative industries, which would make touring prohibitively bureaucratic and expensive. Recent reports show that, apart from a few minor concessions by individual countries, the cost and uncertainty around cabotage, carnets, visas and work permit charges are causing major difficulties.

The European Commission stated in 2019 that, in the music business,

“UK acts … dominate the European panorama”.

There is a restriction of 90 days in 180 days over all member states on visa-free touring. In practice, some countries, such as Austria, Poland and Sweden, have applied additional restrictions on those 90 days or a requirement to be employed by a registered venue, such as in France. The opera singer Jennifer Johnston has said that the standard rehearsal period for performances is 84 days, which means that she can do only one opera every half a year in the EU. Although the Government have granted a cabotage easement, suspending the inbound rules on cabotage for EU-flagged trucks, this creates an imbalance as it is not reciprocated. The fear is that specialist hauliers will move from the UK, which currently has the vast majority of these trucks, to EU countries, with a consequent loss of UK jobs.

The music industry is looking for a transitional support package and a permanent music export office—ultimately, a cultural touring agreement covering the geographic area of Europe. The costs of carnets and permits, as well as restrictions on merchandise, are already affecting the industry; despite the Prime Minister’s promise that he would work flat out to find solutions, there may have been a lot of effort but there is very little to show for it. If the Minister is unable to update us on this, perhaps he will write to the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, with the exact position.

In its report of 17 November this year, the International Agreements Committee outlined its views on the negotiating objectives that the Government should adopt on the Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership, or CPTPP. If we are to ensure that the UK’s standards are safeguarded in a number of areas—including intellectual property and the protection of personal data, which I have not had time to deal with today—the Government need to be clear whether they are seeking carve-outs or embarking on a whole new philosophy involving lower standards and protections.

Finally, our UK services sector is a major success story; so far, the Government have succeeded in only minor acts of mitigation. As the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, indicated, it is a matter of some urgency that the infrastructure for mutual co-operation and consultation is up and running as soon as possible.

Protocol on Ireland/Northern Ireland: Power-sharing

Baroness Donaghy Excerpts

Thursday 16th September 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Frost (Con)]

My Lords, as I think is well known, there was at the time in 2019 quite a degree of consultation as we developed our negotiating position but, unfortunately, the outcome of that process and the positions taken by different parties are well known. We did the right thing for the country in putting in place an agreement that delivered a full and fair Brexit but, unfortunately, that agreement has not been implemented in the way we hoped it would, and that is why it needs to change.

[Baroness Donaghy (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister was extremely frank in the debate on Monday afternoon about the origins of the Northern Ireland protocol. I for one was grateful for that and, dare I say, for his slight change of tone. In a previous life as chair of ACAS, I would advise the parties to say as little as possible, to maximise the possibility of agreement, so I am aware of the irony of asking him a question, and I will make it a full toss if that helps. Does he agree that the top priorities are peace in Northern Ireland, good relations with the Irish Republic, and assisting those very impressive businesspeople in Northern Ireland that the EU Select Committee and its successor have spent the last two years getting to know?

[Lord Frost (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness is obviously correct that it can be helpful to say as little as possible when you are trying to find solutions. This is obviously a matter of considerable political interest on all sides and what we say has to reflect that. I very much agree that the top priority is peace—protecting the Belfast/Good Friday agreement—but the other aims she mentions are extremely important. It is our job as a Government to promote peace and prosperity for everybody in Northern Ireland.

Standards in Public Life

Baroness Donaghy Excerpts

Thursday 9th September 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Donaghy (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Blunkett for initiating this debate. I was a member and acting chair of the Committee on Standards in Public Life about 20 years ago. We undertook the first review of the seven principles and set up a number of codes for Ministers and spads, as well as looking at the issue of lobbying, among other things. I am pleased that the current chair, the noble Lord, Lord Evans of Weardale, is present today—I can only guess at the challenges of the current role and, for what it is worth, I am confident that no one could carry it out as well as he can. This reminded me that the late Baroness Maddock was a member of the Committee on Standards in Public Life at the same time as me. I want to pay tribute to her work and say how much she is missed.

On the same floor in Great Smith Street was the commissioner for Civil Service appointments—then the noble Baroness, Lady Prashar—who is present today. Also on the same floor was the Commissioner for Public Appointments, whose responsibilities had not then been filleted, or, as I would call it, “Grimstoned”, compared with the current occupant of the post. It is fair to say that the challenges were the same then and the pressures as great. I first ask the Minister: will he restore and strengthen the role of the Commissioner for Public Appointments—perhaps de-Grimstone it?

Turning to the recent Committee on Standards in Public Life appointment, I want to emphasise that I am not saying that a former member of the Bullingdon Club is not fit to be a member of the Committee on Standards in Public Life. No doubt, he has paid his debt to society. However, I am concerned about the standard of applicants who failed if he was the best. I appreciate that, if you interview people on Zoom—other remote devices are available—you cannot spot whether they are wearing an ankle tag, but surely some diversity is called for.

The Institute for Government has said that the Ministerial Code and the role of independent adviser were no longer working, and I agree with that. However, the Institute for Government and Transparency International, of which I am a long-term admirer, have both called for the Ministerial Code to be embedded in statute. I prefer to accept the recommendation on this of the Committee on Standards in Public Life. The Prime Minister is responsible, and it is his or her integrity that is under the spotlight. The committee offered some sensible suggestions about sanctions and the independent adviser’s powers. Are the Government minded to accept them?

On Greensill Capital, I welcome the statement from ACOBA that lobbying the Government unfairly to benefit a new employer on leaving office is “inappropriate and unacceptable”. I think that the noble Lord, Lord Pickles, is doing the best he can with tools which have been woefully inadequate for decades.

My interest in the Greensill affair centred on what I believe to be the disgraceful treatment of Lady Heywood, the widow of Sir Jeremy, who would have brought distinction to this House had it not been for his untimely death. She sensed, quite rightly, that her husband was being lined up as a scapegoat. Lady Heywood described the Boardman inquiry as a “travesty of process”. She was repeatedly denied requests since late April for her late husband to have representation and was included only one week before publication, where Mr Boardman read out his conclusions to her. She said:

“I am horrified that I have to be here to try and defend my husband against what has been a fabricated attack on him and an absolutely horrible process.”


Let us be clear: Jeremy Heywood, Lord Heywood, was implementing government policy decided by Ministers. Lady Heywood’s name is listed under

“List of interviewees and other meetings”

in the Boardman report—the Report of the Facts. It implies much more than the reality. She did not have a proper opportunity to ensure that her husband was defended. I shall not comment on the suitability of the author to conduct the inquiry, but, having looked at the 150-page report closely, I want to say that the blurred lines of accountability at the centre of government could not be clearer.

Emergency Covid Contracts

Baroness Donaghy Excerpts

Thursday 1st July 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, the Nolan principles arise from outside government. I was there at the start of the Nolan process and recall that it arose from recommendations that were requested by the then Prime Minister. I do not believe the principles necessarily cover emails—I may be wrong—but there are other areas of guidance to Ministers; there are duties under the Ministerial Code and so on. Obviously, Ministers must have an eye to all of those in their daily work.

[Baroness Donaghy (Lab)]

I think the Minister was quite correct that an extraordinary effort was made. My concern is that that effort was focused on political friends and actual friends. It has been confirmed, as the Minister said, that a VIP lane, or high-priority route, existed for PPE offers referred by Ministers, MPs or officials. Will the Minister confirm that there was also a fast track for test and trace offers if they came from a Minister/private office? What percentage of those politically connected offers were successful in the triage process?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I am advised that the claims that have been made in this respect are completely false and that there was in fact no high-priority lane for testing suppliers. All offers of testing went through the same robust assurance checks, and there was no separate so-called fast-track process—that is the clear advice that I have been given. Any discussions relating to government business were fed back to officials in the usual way. It does not matter what I think, but I assure the House that we as a Government take the impartiality and integrity of government procurement processes extremely seriously. When I say it does not matter what I think, I am saying that I think that and the whole Government think that, so I think I can set the noble Baroness’s fears at ease on that score.

Security of Ministers’ Offices and Communications

Baroness Donaghy Excerpts

Tuesday 29th June 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I hear what my noble friend says. I have referred to the different bounds and responsibilities that take place within the normal life of a Minister. I am not going to comment on what may or may not have gone on within the Department of Health, not because it is not my responsibility to answer on behalf of the Government but because those matters are currently being investigated.

[Baroness Donaghy (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, if the person with the former Secretary of State had been a would-be terrorist, some would have a very different attitude to the CCTV in the department. There will always have to be a balance between privacy and security, but the ministerial statement says that there are “robust safeguards” in place around the security of Ministers. You could have fooled me. Will the investigation try to find whether those in charge of the CCTV sought to tell the Minister that he was risking being blackmailed? On the use of private emails between Matt Hancock and the noble Lord, Lord Bethell, will there be a full- scale investigation into their use to ensure that they are available for a future public inquiry on the pandemic—particularly if they involve government contracts? Will the Information Commissioner be invited to investigate?