European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Bill

Baroness Falkner of Margravine Excerpts

2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 21st February 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Falkner of Margravine (LD)]

My Lords, I need to make a few declarations. The first is that I have the privilege in this House of chairing the EU Financial Affairs Sub-Committee. I would say this, but in my opinion it is the most significant committee at this point in terms of the angles that it is looking at, such as financial services and the EU budget. My other declaration is more personal. I am married to a German, I have lived and worked in France, and I have a house in Italy. So I have a big dog in this fight, not a little whippet.

However, I have to tell the House that on the passage of this Bill I will be voting with the Labour Opposition and the Government Benches. Why do I take the position I do? It is not because I am any less a remainer today than I was on 23 June—I am every bit a remainer; as I explained, I have a deep and personal motivation to wish that the result of last June had not happened. But I believe that a second referendum entails risks for which the price is too high: too high for the country overall and too high for the other European countries. It has been stated that the people voted for a departure but not a destination. In my view, people had a very clear idea of the destination: the destination was a break from the EU. I agree that they did not know exactly what the terrain would look like, but they knew they were taking a risk.

A vote is always conducted on imperfect information. There is an inherent risk in any decision about the future, whether it is intervention in Syria or, as on this occasion, the EU. Take as an analogy the Scottish devolution referendum in 1998. At the time, Conservative, Labour and Lib Dem unionists in Scotland were told that the electoral system was such that no single party could take power alone and so the nats would not be able to take power and re-open the independence question again. We all know how that turned out. Take the euro. In the late 1990s and early 2000s, voters in several EU states had a referendum on joining the currency. In their nightmares they could not have imagined the financial crisis and the banks too big to fail nearly bringing down the sovereigns. In Greece, Italy and indeed even in Germany, people could not have known what was to hit the euro in less than a decade. People always act on imperfect information.

The other reason why I believe that we now have to implement the result is the referendum Act of 2011. Let me remind the House that that Act commits us to a referendum if further powers or competencies are passed to the EU that entail treaty change. That is the current situation. There are people across this House who wished to try to defeat the Act—I was one of them—but we failed. We now have a situation where treaty change, driven by the exigencies of European integration, is inevitable. This House knows that the eurozone crisis, the security issue, the need for joint co-operation on immigration and a host of other things will bring the Europeans to the point at which they will need treaty change, if not in the next five years then in the next 10. We would have had to take this issue to the British people anyway, if not in 2016 then perhaps in 2026.

Let me turn now to the central purpose of the Bill, which is in effect to trigger Article 50. While it may be theoretically possible to revoke Brexit while the talks on the question are still going on over the next two years, politically we cannot revert to the status quo ante. It is contrary to what the other 27 countries of the EU envisage in terms of their understanding of Article 50: that in effect it is politically irrevocable.

Once we have passed this Bill, there is no longer any possibility of a negotiation where the UK could go into the talks again with a set of demands on the proviso that if they are not good enough we will have another referendum. I say “again” and “another”, because we have already done that. From 2013 a referendum was promised if the Conservatives won the election. After 2015 the Government spent a year renegotiating a new settlement with the EU, securing what I think was a very good settlement. However, we were not able to sell that to the people, and here we are.

The EU has seen the latest bout of UK-inspired disruption for six years now, since 2011, with at least a further two years to go. The idea that we can try the same thing again and again shows a profound misunderstanding of how the EU works and ignorance of our partners’ patience and preoccupations. They will not go into an Article 50 negotiation or give us any serious terms if they believe that we will prolong the agony, theirs and ours, with the risk that we might have the same result after another vote. In fact, the contrary is likely to happen, as there is already a view across the Channel that what we were offered last year was too generous. So to stop others from using the same ploy we are likely to lose some of our opt-outs and special exemptions. To keep united, the EU needs us to move on so that it can resolve the myriad problems confronting both the Union and us.

Janan Ganesh writing in the Financial Times today lays out a future for Britain’s relationship with the EU where we, the remainers, will have to mobilise, to make our case, and to wait for new relations to evolve. Bit by bit, the UK will have to renew its engagement with the EU if it is to thrive and not just survive. Pragmatism will be driven on that occasion by the voters themselves, again. He says:

“Brexit is an idea whose only effective rebuttal is its own implementation”.


It will take time and it will take patience. I hope to play my small role in the passage of this Bill.

European Union and Canada: Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement

Baroness Falkner of Margravine Excerpts

Thursday 27th October 2016 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Baroness Falkner of Margravine]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the current state of negotiations of the Comprehensive Economic Trade Agreement between the European Union and Canada; and what lessons they have drawn from these negotiations.

[Baroness Mobarik (Con)]

The UK remains fully supportive of CETA and of the EU’s wider trade agenda. We have been working closely with the Commission and other member states to enable signature of this agreement to take place, and negotiations are continuing in Brussels today. As noted by the Prime Minister, we are not looking to replicate a model that another country has; we want to ensure that we have the right deal for the United Kingdom.

[Baroness Falkner of Margravine (LD)]

I thank the noble Baroness for her reply. I wonder whether she recognises these words: Brexit,

“means immediately seeking Free Trade Agreements with the biggest prospective markets as fast as possible. There is no reason why many of these cannot be achieved within two years. We can pick up the almost complete agreement between the EU and Canada, and if anything liberalise it”.

In case she does not remember them, they were written on the website of Conservative Home by the current Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union, Mr David Davis. Do the Government still believe that their bespoke deal can be delivered in two years? What bilateral talks are they having with other EU member states to prevent the UK deal being a “mixed” agreement, needing ratification in over 30 assemblies and parliaments?

[Baroness Mobarik]

I thank the noble Baroness for that. I think that there were several questions there and I shall attempt to answer at least one of them. The UK is unique and the deal that we negotiate will be bespoke. The relationships that Canada and the UK have with the EU are very different. We are an EU member state, whereas Canada is not. The UK is an important market for the European Union and therefore an ongoing trading relationship is in the EU’s interests.

European Council

Baroness Falkner of Margravine Excerpts

Wednesday 29th June 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I am not able to provide right now the data that the noble Lord has asked for on the economy. If I can, I will write to the noble Lord with that information. I would say to him again, and to the House as a whole, that we have a strong economy in this country, and it is because of that strong economy that we are in a good position to withstand whatever period of uncertainty we are about to endure.

[Baroness Falkner of Margravine (LD)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness tells the House that the empty chair today is not because of any legal issues but because it is an informal meeting. She will know that Nicola Sturgeon is meeting the Commission chairman, Mr Juncker, as well as the President of the European Parliament today. Is that an informal meeting as well? Is foreign affairs still a reserved matter, or will they have discussions with the Scottish Government over amending the Scotland Act and consultations about Brexit?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I can certainly confirm that foreign affairs is a reserved matter and that the UK’s relationship with the European Union is just that—the UK’s relationship with the European Union. The decision to leave was one taken by the United Kingdom as a whole. Future negotiations on our future relationship will be United Kingdom led. That said, the Prime Minister has been at pains to stress that, in this period—and, he hopes, that of his successor—the United Kingdom Government will consult the devolved Assemblies. We want to ensure the best result for all parts of the United Kingdom and this Government very much believe that that will be achieved if we consult them.

As for the noble Baroness’s points about empty-chairing discussions on this, that and the other, I point out to noble Lords that, in addition to attending the European Council yesterday, the Prime Minister held bilateral meetings with other members of the European Union, the President of the Commission and so on. He has said today that, while formal negotiations on the UK’s exit from the EU will be triggered by Article 50, which can be triggered only by the United Kingdom—and members of the European Union have made clear that, from their perspective, that is the point at which formal negotiations will start—that will not prevent discussions taking place bilaterally. That is something which he very much hopes his successor will continue.

Syria: UK Military Action

Baroness Falkner of Margravine Excerpts

Wednesday 2nd December 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Falkner of Margravine (LD)]

My Lords, I start by congratulating the noble Lord, Lord Hague of Richmond, on the brevity and clarity of his fantastic maiden speech. It was an important speech and the House needed to hear his voice today.

I have spoken in 43 debates on Syria since 2011. In the intervening five years, more than 9 million people have been displaced, more than 1 million injured and 250,000 killed. It is important for us to recognise that. For most of this period, I have argued for intervention because it was evident that, poorly governed as the Middle East is, it was incapable of resolution on its own. The rise of ISIL was not a surprise. Al-Qaeda and its affiliates have always mobilised in vacuums, as we know from Somalia and Afghanistan. As with AQ, so we have to deal with ISIL.

To those who have concerns about the UK’s belated engagement to degrade Islamic State in Syria, I say this: I am the first to admit that bombing cannot destroy an ideology, but it is undoubtedly true that the ownership of territory gives you the attributes of statehood. IS raises revenue from having 20 to 30 billion barrels of oil, pumped daily from captured fields in eastern Syria and northern Iraq and providing about $50 million a month. It raises taxes from the population trapped within its area of control and it administers summary justice—although on justice I say to the House that in our abhorrence of its justice, we seldom recognise that our ally in Saudi Arabia has similar and as barbarian punishments, some of which it is carrying out this week. The fact that ISIL runs like a state is what makes it attractive to other jihadis, including Western ones. To push back against its territorial gains therefore has to be an essential part of the strategy, and air power is already working in that regard. The Americans say that they have killed more than 20,000 IS fighters since August 2014, so to suggest that air power is therefore irrelevant is strange, to say the least.

There is also much concern that we do not have a developed strategy beyond air power. I do not want to get into a numbers game, but I will say that growing up in conservative Muslim societies, with 42 years in and out of the Middle East, has taught me one thing: that in the Middle East, allegiances shift in the sands as much as they ever did. The entire history of Islam—the Shia/Sunni schism and much more—is about shifting powers and then shifting allegiances. When the facts on the ground start to change as we join the campaign to degrade IS, so too will myriad fighters change sides. The US saw that in the tribal awakenings in Anbar in Iraq in 2007, and we may see it again.

Moreover, on strategy, we have seen in warfare that whatever the game plan was when you started out, a few months later it will not be what you expected. We cannot know how this will end; that does not mean that we are not right to try to shape events. I simply remind the House that the Islamic State’s motto is “Enduring and expanding”. That is their brand and their mission. We owe humanity a duty to try to prevent that.

Tunisia and European Council

Baroness Falkner of Margravine Excerpts

Monday 29th June 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

It is important for me to say that this is not about defeating Islamism; it is about defeating extremism and an ideology that is perverting a religion called Islam. All, I am sure, that any of us in your Lordships’ House wants is for the shared values in Britain, which are all about freedom and democracy, to be the loudest message that everyone hears. We want to ensure that we say to any person who shows sympathy with extremism that that will not be tolerated. Wherever it comes from, extremism should never be part of anybody’s conversation in this country. The Prime Minister is making clear in his contribution to the debate at this time that he wants all those in the Muslim community to have the confidence to know that they are right in condemning acts of extremism, that when they condemn acts of extremism they are standing alongside the rest of this country and that together we are going to defeat this extremism. Only together will we succeed.

[Baroness Falkner of Margravine (LD)]

My Lords, the Minister speaks about the Muslim countries in the Middle East trying to achieve good governance and stability. Would she accept that the war in Syria, which by next year will be entering its sixth year, must be resolved? The European Council Statement talks about a strategic reflection to conclude by June 2016. By then, ISIL will have been in power for two years in a given territory and the Syrian war will have been going on for six years. We do not have the time or the leisure to watch all this unfold over an extremely long period. What progress are they making towards trying to bring about Geneva III, a peace process, even if that results in a partial peace in Syria? We will turn the tide back through incremental gains in peace and stability on the ground and not through a good-governance revolution in places such as Saudi Arabia and Bahrain, which are going in the opposite direction.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

What I am trying to say is that, as the Prime Minister made clear in his Statement, this is not a situation in which just one approach will see a successful result. There has to be a combination of approaches, which includes some military intervention. We are not involved in the military intervention in Syria—the noble Baroness knows of course that the decision was taken not to pursue that course of action—but we are supporting it with intelligence. I do not have the kinds of answers that she wants from me today, but I can assure her that the Government completely agree with her desire for urgent action. We want to see progress. That is what we are working towards, and we are trying to do so at every level and with every partner that we can to bring about progress in the Middle East.

European Council

Baroness Falkner of Margravine Excerpts

Monday 23rd March 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Falkner of Margravine (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Leader of the House for repeating that Statement, which sounded rather like the Conservative election manifesto—but then so did Labour’s response. I am sure the House will be pleased to hear that I will stick to the conclusions of the European Council rather than doing that.

The conclusions say at paragraph 13 that the high representative, in co-operation with member states, is going to prepare an action plan by June to counter Russia’s disinformation campaign. In light of the questions we had a little earlier today in the House, can the Leader of the House confirm that the BBC will assist the high representative in forming this communication team, as it clearly has great expertise in that regard? The other point is on paragraph 16 and the Commission’s initiative to submit a European agenda for migration. Will this be restricted perhaps to the Schengen area, or will it be a comprehensive EU-wide agenda, because the material facts and action possible will be very different in both regards?

Finally, the Leader of the House challenged us at the end of the Statement on the European referendum pledge—

[Noble Lords]

Order!

[Baroness Falkner of Margravine]

I am concluding. Could I just ask whether the Leader of the House has seen the report coming out today by Open Europe on the cost of exit?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

On my noble friend’s first point about communication and Russia, I would not want to commit as to what role the BBC World Service might play. I point my noble friend to the fact that the good governance fund to which I referred in the Statement is designed to help those eastern nations which neighbour Russia and in the Balkans to improve their strategic communications. As to her point about the Open Europe report today, the key thing that I took away from it was that the best way forward is for a reformed European Union, and that is what David Cameron is committed to securing.

Syria: Refugees

Baroness Falkner of Margravine Excerpts

Wednesday 10th December 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

I agree entirely with the noble Baroness that this is an extremely difficult situation and I take her point about winter coming. The fact is that we regard aid on the ground as the most important way of helping those neighbouring countries which have all the problems she suggests. £700 million is not a small amount. It is the largest single aid figure we have ever given. I completely agree that it has to take place in the context of a political settlement. Taking vulnerable people and asylum seekers is important but, in terms of actual direct effect, in the short term aid on the ground is the best way of helping the neighbouring countries.

[Baroness Falkner of Margravine (LD)]

My Lords—

[Lord Elystan-Morgan (CB)]

My Lords—

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Stowell of Beeston) (Con)]

My Lords—order, order—we have not heard from the Liberal Democrat Benches so it is the turn of my noble friend Lady Falkner.

[Baroness Falkner of Margravine]

My Lords, we are coming to the fourth anniversary of this conflict. In answer to the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, the Minister said that the Government do not believe in keeping the Assad regime in place—

[A noble Lord]

We need your voice, Dafydd. We need your voice.

[Baroness Falkner of Margravine]

My Lords, I obviously cannot go on with my question if the Cross-Benchers continue.

The Minister said that the Assad regime cannot be kept in place. Did he mean that President Assad cannot be kept in place and does he rule out in any future peace settlement any conversations that might allow some elements of the regime to take over in a transitional government? That is a change in position as far as I understand it.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

I certainly did not make that clear. I am not prepared today to give details of Foreign Office policy, but I will consult with my colleagues and write to the noble Baroness about that issue.

Intelligence and Security Committee of Parliament Report: Fusilier Lee Rigby

Baroness Falkner of Margravine Excerpts

Tuesday 25th November 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

The overall funding for the security and intelligence agencies has increased from £2 billion in 2010 to £2.1 billion now. We do not give a breakdown of how the different agencies are funded for security reasons. The majority of the £130 million of new money announced today over the next two years will go to our agencies to give them new capabilities to monitor and disrupt terrorists—to deal with the new kind of threat that we are now facing from the so-called “self-starter” terrorists. Further funding will go to support counterterrorism policing and Prevent programmes to tackle radicalisation. My right honourable friend the Chancellor will set out more details of the breakdown of all the funding in the Autumn Statement. I would just add that we have protected £500 million of annual counterterrorism policing grant in real terms. There is quite a lot of information there, but the Chancellor will provide more in the Autumn Statement.

[Baroness Falkner of Margravine (LD)]

My Lords, my noble friend mentioned the Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill to be introduced in the other place tomorrow. Can she give the House an assurance that we will not use fast-track legislative procedures to take it through this House? I declare that I am a member of the Constitution Committee. She will know that the Constitution Committee believes that fast-track legislation should be used only in the most extreme circumstances. We still have parliamentary time and this Bill will need careful scrutiny by all Members of the House.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

We ought to draw a distinction between fast-track legislation and emergency legislation. Fast-track does not mean that the time devoted to scrutiny would be diminished in any way; it means that the time between stages would be shortened. Having identified that these are important measures to address gaps that currently exist and that by addressing them we will put ourselves on a stronger footing to deal with a very serious threat, I would say to my noble friend and to the House as a whole that we should not delay doing so. I hope very much that we are able to agree that we will follow a fast-track process, but, as I said, that does not mean that the Bill will not receive the normal length of time it needs for debate in this House.

G20 Summit

Baroness Falkner of Margravine Excerpts

Monday 17th November 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Falkner of Margravine (LD)]

My Lords, through my noble friend, the Prime Minister should be congratulated on the agreement on beneficial ownership transparency. She knows, however, that the World Bank believes that the United States and the United Kingdom are the two jurisdictions where most companies that hold proceeds of corruption incorporate. It is a little disappointing to see in the communiqué that, while countries are required to submit action plans, there is no time target for how long the approximately 90 of them that have signed up will take in terms of sharing information and achieving the action plans. Can my noble friend tell the House if there is any discussion about that?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

On transparency overall we have made a huge breakthrough over the past few years, but my noble friend is right to express some frustration on beneficial ownership transparency. It is an area in which we would like to see greater progress. We have taken concrete action and are establishing this public central registry for company beneficial ownership information. We are working hard to ensure that others follow our lead, but I do not have any further details to offer at this time.

EU Council

Baroness Falkner of Margravine Excerpts

Monday 27th October 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

There is a lot of talk going on at the moment and many suggestions are being made. People are trying to complicate yet further something that is already incredibly complex. As the Prime Minister has been emphatic in saying, this is a standard process that happens on an annual basis. The UK expects to play its part in this process in the way it has done in the past. What has not happened before, but has happened this time, is this kind of demand being made at this sort of level. We need to understand the detail before we can go any further forward on this matter.

[Baroness Falkner of Margravine (LD)]

My Lords, I associate myself with the Prime Minister’s remarks on the drawdown from Afghanistan in offering our deepest support for the 453 men and women who gave their lives in that cause. I also say to the Minister that we must not forget the many thousands who have been injured and maimed and who continue to live. We must remember our obligation to them as well.

On the EU budget contribution, does the Minister agree that since these reservations, voiced by Eurostat, go back to 2002—indeed, I understand that there were six reservations—they would have been known about by the Labour Government in all the years since 2002, and that the statistics that needed to be looked at have not come out of the blue for either side? Will she tell the House whether the emergency Finance Ministers’ meeting on 7 November will hold bilateral discussions with the other eight states that are similarly affected in order to build a consensus that this cannot go down the route which the Prime Minister is resisting and which they are trying to make him take? Will she also tell the House whether I am right to say that the amount sought is 0.01% of GNI?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My noble friend is right to remind the House that in the context of Afghanistan we must also remember those Armed Forces personnel who were very badly injured through their service on our behalf in that country. I am grateful to her for reminding us of that.

On her point about bilateral conversations on 7 November, I do not have the detail about the way in which the meeting and the conversations are going to be constructed that day. However, it is important for us to be clear that other member states are affected by this and that they feel as strongly as we do. The Italian Prime Minister has it made clear, as he said when he was talking about the demands put on some member states by the surcharge, that this is not a figure but a lethal weapon. On my noble friend’s specific point, I may have to write to her if I am not able to give her an answer during the course of answering the Statement.