Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Debate between Baroness Fox of Buckley and Lord Falconer of Thoroton

Committee stage
Friday 23rd January 2026 Lords Chamber

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

The way the noble Lord has put the question to me means that, plainly, this would be because of the illness, would it not? I want an assisted death because the illness is going to kill me. That seems quite a bad example.

[Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)]

I appreciate that the noble and learned Lord is saying that we have covered a lot of this ground before, but there is one reason that people keep coming back to similar threads. The noble and learned Lord has in many instances said, “I’m listening to you. I’ll think about that”, and nothing happens. It is not reassuring and there are different ways of approaching this. I thought I had made some inroads. The noble and learned Lord was quite positive about the question of motivation being relevant.

A patient arrives at the doctors and says, “I’ve got a terminal illness”. The doctor says, “Why do you want an assisted death?” The patient says, “I’m costing my kids a fortune—their inheritance. The care home costs tens of thousands of pounds. I’m a burden”. The noble and learned Lord just suggested to the noble Lord, Lord Deben, that you would say, “That’s your choice”. As in an earlier discussion in relation to the NHS, we are talking about NHS doctors, whom you would think would say, “Let me have a chat with you about that” and challenge them. They cannot just say, “If that’s what you want, carry on”.

All those examples I gave—I will not go over the millions of better ones used in the past—show that this undermines autonomy and suggests that the state is indifferent to somebody, in effect, asking for help in a different way but the form it takes is, “I might as well have an assisted death”. If you listen to them, they might be asking for something else that the state can intervene and help them with, whereas we just go, “Assisted death? We can provide that. Any of that other stuff you want, like financial help or help with loneliness and all that—we can’t afford that. That’s not happening, but assisted dying? You’re on your way”. That is why we are worried, and it is why these amendments are worth taking seriously. The noble and learned Lord needs to come back with written amendments that will reassure some of us so that we do not keep repeating ourselves.

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

That was not really an intervention; it was just a statement. I should have said to the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, that, as I said last week, I will make an amendment so that the question of why will be asked, but I do not depart from the proposition that autonomy should be the leading reason for it. We disagree about that, and the House can reject that view on Report, but I am explaining what my position is.

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Debate between Baroness Fox of Buckley and Lord Falconer of Thoroton

Committee stage
Friday 16th January 2026 Lords Chamber

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

It is very difficult and would be inappropriate to try to examine exactly why people make particular choices. Look at the first Amendment 30 proposal:

“not wanting to be a burden on others or on public services”.

Why does the thought that they are going to be a burden on their children become an unbearable thing for some people to go through? They might make that choice because of what has gone on in their lives, but it is totally inappropriate, impossible and wrong in a Bill such as this to say that we have to ask why they are in that position.

The next proposal refers to a mental disorder—

[Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)]

If the doctor was required to ask what someone’s motivation was, and the patient said, “I just really don’t want to be a burden on my family; it’s too intolerable”, but they have been told they are terminally ill relatively recently, is it not possible that there could be an intervention that would say, “Maybe you won’t be a burden” and to go and talk to their family? One of the problems is that it is assumed the endpoint is there already, whereas if you ask the question, there is a possibility that you could offer an alternative. If somebody says, “I can’t face the pain”, you can tell them there is pain relief available. This is not trying to undermine the Bill totally, but it is possible that if the doctor responds with some options, the patient would be on their way. Why not ask for the motivation? That would surely be positive.

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

That is a very important question. There is a difference between excluding certain motivations, which is what Amendment 30 would do, and asking why, which the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Newnham, raised. I see force in the proposition that somewhere in the Bill, somebody has to ask why—for two reasons. First, as was raised previously, if you ask why, it might throw some light on circumstances that suggest classic coercion. Secondly, and separately, it might deal with exactly what the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, is referring to.

Take an utterly absurd example: someone says, “I want an assisted death because I cannot deal with the noise that’s going on in my head”. The doctor could then reply, “Well, actually, that’s a building site that will stop tomorrow”. If it is something like that, one should know.

I am attracted by the idea of something in the Bill that says why. That has to be asked somewhere down the line. This also connects with our previous discussions about the multidisciplinary team engaged in looking after the person, which might well have a much better view about why.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

I am saying that everybody should have the choice. The way that one makes the choice is inevitably determined by how one got to the point where one had to make it. It is an impossible question. Why do we all make choices? They are all affected. Some people make them because they are richer or poorer than others, but I am not in favour of drawing financial distinctions. I hope that, in the light of my remarks, the noble Baroness— I cannot remember who started this—will withdraw her amendment.

[Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)]

I blame myself for this, but the noble and learned Lord was about to say something about the mental health issue when I made a point, and we have not gone back to it. That is a very distinct question, so will he reflect on it?

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

This is not a technical point, but the way the amendment is drafted is very confusing. If your mental illness makes you come to this conclusion, that may well go to capacity. I am not clear what is being got at in relation to the mental health issue. However, if the position is that you may have a mental health condition but are perfectly capable of making a decision, you should be allowed to make it.

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Debate between Baroness Fox of Buckley and Lord Falconer of Thoroton

Committee stage
Friday 5th December 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

On the comments that the noble Lord refers to, in relation to whether you should impose a whole-life term on somebody under 21, I recognise, as the Sentencing Council does, that issues of immaturity might make that inappropriate in certain cases. However, on this position, the question is: what is the age at which you might be capable of taking a settled decision? The concerns that the Committee has expressed about people aged between 18 and 25 make me think that the right course is to consider whether there are ways to deal with that that the House would feel are satisfactory on Report. I think that is the right course.

[Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)]

Could I have some reassurance that with changing the franchise to 16, there will not be any slippage in relation to this Bill from 18 downwards? That is a reasonable question because, according to some people, 16 is now mature enough and adult enough to decide the fate of the country and decisions made here. Is there not a danger? Can he guarantee that this will not happen?

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

I guarantee to the noble Baroness that the age is not going to go down from 18 as far as this Bill is concerned. The future is not in my gift, unfortunately. However, as far as the future is concerned, it is extremely unlikely that a subsequent Parliament is going to reduce that age.

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Debate between Baroness Fox of Buckley and Lord Falconer of Thoroton

Committee stage
Friday 21st November 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

The Bill makes it absolutely clear that it must be your own decision. Let us suppose that your views of the world are affected by the internet and that you are ill and an organisation is urging you to commit suicide, that organisation should be liable if that happens.

In Amendment 49, the noble Baroness, Lady Coffey, wants “person” to include a body corporate or an organisation in relation to pressure. If an organisation or a body corporate is putting pressure on a group of people or on individuals and that makes them do it—this is putting it crudely, but if an organisation says, “Do have an assisted death; it is the right thing for everybody or for you”—that should be covered by the Bill. The noble Baroness adverted to how “person” can generally include both corporate person and human person, but I can talk to her separately about that to make sure that it is covered.

[Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)]

Some clarification is needed in relation to a number of points that you have made. How does anybody know, how does the doctor know, whether any of these scenarios have happened? Is there anything in the Bill that makes the doctor ask and explore? The word I proposed was “encouragement”—that you would ask not just “Were you coerced or pressurised?” but “Were you encouraged?”—because it would develop a richer conversation. Is there anywhere in the Bill where all the things that you have just said—apologies; I should not have said “you” but “the noble and learned Lord”—can be fleshed out, discussed and teased out?

Maybe I have got this wrong, but at the moment as I understand it, you fill your form in, somebody might even ask “Were you coerced?” and you say no, and that is that, out the window and then, Bob’s your uncle, you are eligible and off you go. It does not matter how often that process happens. The noble and learned Lord spoke about “first doctor, second doctor”, but if they do not all explore it, how will we know whether it was anything other than a yes/no? The noble and learned Lord has given a very rich explanation of what could have happened, but the Bill does not allow us to find out whether any of that will have occurred before the assisted death is enacted.

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

I do not feel insulted by being called “you”, but I do not think that the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, properly understands how the Bill operates. The two doctors and the panel have to be satisfied that the person is reaching a voluntary decision of their own, uncoerced and unpressured. Codes of practice will determine how that is done and, what is more, the panel with the three experts on it also has to be satisfied. The noble Baroness, Lady Fox, is saying that that is a tick-box exercise. With respect, no: this is obviously a very serious matter. I expect the doctors and the panel doing it to take it seriously.

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Debate between Baroness Fox of Buckley and Lord Falconer of Thoroton

Committee stage
Friday 14th November 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

I will deal first with the central issue in this debate, which is the amendment from the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay. The wording currently mentions:

“A terminally ill person in England or Wales who … has the capacity to make a decision”.


The noble Baroness proposes that “capacity” should be changed to “ability”. From what the noble Lord, Lord Wolfson, says, I understand that we should read that with Amendment 115, although there is another amendment that the noble Baroness proposes in relation to Clause 3. But I accept what the noble Lord says in relation to Amendment 2.

With the greatest respect to the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, she is suggesting that we remove “capacity” and replace it with “ability”. The noble Lord, Lord Sandhurst, put his finger on it when he said that “capacity” is well known to the law. You could not possibly have a Bill that did not refer to capacity because what it means, in the eyes of the law and of people in practice, is the ability to make the decision. As the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, said, if you do not have capacity, you cannot make the decision. That applies right across the doings of human beings, and the law recognises that. If, therefore, you replace “capacity”—

[Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)]

On a point of clarification, I thought that the idea of adding both words was very helpful, but when the noble and learned Lord says that you cannot make the decision without capacity, it is not any decision but this particular decision in this Bill. Can he reflect on a point that was made very well by one of his noble friends on something that happened in my family as well? Somebody with dementia was said to have capacity for a particular decision, but I would not have wanted my mother to have been trusted as having the capacity to decide whether to ask for assisted death.

The Mental Capacity Act is fantastically important, but is it appropriate for this decision—not any old decision but this decision—which is a bit more challenging than some of the decisions that the Mental Capacity Act is used to decide on?

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

That is very well put and is exactly the question. Is it appropriate to bring the Mental Capacity Act into this Bill? I understand that whether you have an assisted death is an incredibly important decision. You cannot remove the word “capacity”, so you have to reject the amendment from the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay.

Her Amendment 115 effectively draws on how the Mental Capacity Act 2005 is currently drafted, except it adds two things. It removes the presumption of capacity and, separately, it requires the person making the decision to be aware of a variety of things that are connected with their illness. To summarise, the way the Mental Capacity Act operates at the moment is that if you are unable to understand information relevant to the decision, to retain that information, to use and weigh that information or to communicate your decision, you do not have capacity under the current Mental Capacity Act. The extent to which the things that the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, has referred to in her amendment would be relevant would have to be weighed in the context of the decision that has to be made.

I am more than happy to debate whether we need to make the changes to the Mental Capacity Act that she is suggesting. For my part, I do not think we do. One thing that is absolutely clear is that the amendment proposed, as the noble Lord, Lord Sandhurst, identified, is completely ridiculous. You cannot remove the question of capacity from this choice. Putting aside some detail hurdles, there are two hurdles that need to be overcome in how this Bill is constructed. You have to be capable of making the decision, as the noble Lord, Lord Wolfson, said, and—completely separately—you have to make that decision completely voluntarily. It has to be your own decision, not the product of pressure.

We have had—and I say this with warmth and respect—a rambling debate going over a whole range of issues, miles away from the question of whether one should remove the word “capacity” and put in the word “ability”. If this House wants to make the law completely confused in this area, either put in the word “ability” or put in “capacity and ability”. I echo the speech of the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, when she says we have to approach this in a grown-up manner, and to remove the word “capacity” is not a sensible way to deal with this.

I also echo those who have said that the idea of running two systems at the same time—the Mental Capacity Act system and the separate system proposed by the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay—is wrong and confusing. I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, for spotting what the right decision is. Of course, under the Mental Capacity Act some unimportant decisions are taken, but a decision such as whether to have the ventilation removed from you if you have motor neurone disease, that will almost certainly lead to your death, is without a shimmer of a shadow of doubt a life and death decision.

The Chief Medical Officer of England and Wales, in evidence to the Lords Select Committee, said:

“it is far better to use systems that people are used to and that are tested both in practice and, where necessary, in law”.

He went on to say:

“I have a concern that you could have a conversation in one bed in a hospital where someone is talking about, for example, an operation where they might well lose their life, because they are frail and there is the operative risk, done under the Mental Capacity Act, and, in the next-door bed, someone is trying to do the same process of having a difficult conversation about someone who might die, or could definitely die, as a result of that decision, but using a different legal framework. The risks that that could lead to confusion are not trivial”.


I also echo what the noble Baroness, Lady Browning, who sadly is not in her place, said. There are problems about practically every aspect of how various parts of the health service work, but she was part of a process that considered how the Mental Capacity Act worked. The broad conclusion was that it was a good, workable Act, and we should not stray from it in this particular case. I invite the noble Baroness to withdraw her amendment.