Wales Bill
Baroness Gale Excerpts(9 years, 7 months ago)
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Lord Tyler (LD)
My Lords, my noble friends and I are very pleased to lead on this group of amendments, just as we have led the debate on this issue for more than a decade. In that time, cross-party support has grown, not least for my Private Member’s Bill, which was debated in the House in October 2013. We are now pleased to have the support of the Labour Front Bench in both Houses.
Only the Conservative leadership remains unconvinced, and yet the irony is, of course, that it has been the Prime Minister himself who, through his agreement with the Liberal Democrat Scottish Secretary and with Alex Salmond, has let the genie out of the bottle. The evidence for this change no longer lies merely on foreign shores but here in the United Kingdom. The new clauses in Amendments 12 and 46 within the scope of this Bill argue separately for extending the franchise for Welsh Assembly elections, and for extending the franchise for any referendum on future tax-raising powers for the Assembly, to 16 year-olds and 17 year- olds.
Sixteen year-olds will be liable to pay tax. Why, then, should they not be responsible, in common with their fellow citizens, for voting on who should levy that tax? We support, too, the spirit of the Labour Front Bench’s Amendment 18, which would extend the right to vote to 16 year-olds at Welsh local elections. Indeed, on these Benches we support the extension to all United Kingdom elections.
This cannot any longer be considered controversial. What would be much more controversial, having extended the franchise on the question of the utmost importance of one part of the United Kingdom in the recent referendum, would be to retract that and go back to a voting age of 18. Removing that right from voters who have had that right in the upcoming general election would be extraordinary—and very controversial.
There will be an important election next year. What could be more important than the future governance of our country? Your Lordships’ House will be familiar with the excellent work of Kenny Imafidon in his two reports on democratic engagement among young people. He has given me a sneak preview of his third report, which rightly concludes:
“If we do not let 16- and 17-year-olds in Scotland as well as the rest of the United Kingdom, vote at our next election, we—the UK—will be the first democracy to enfranchise a group of voters, then take away their right to vote … for no logical reason”.
I could not put it better myself. Enfranchising 16 year-olds has plainly been a triumphant success in one part of the United Kingdom. It is extraordinary to note that their turnout was very good indeed. More than 80% of 16 and 17 year-olds registered to vote. That itself is a record.
No one could claim that their enfranchisement dragged down the overall turnout. The referendum had a higher turnout than any election in living memory. We all saw on our television screens young people who had been engaged by the process and were ready to vote again. What a scandal it would be if some of them were denied that right next year.
International evidence also supports those of us who would extend the franchise to all elections. Eva Zeglovits from the Austrian National Election Study team tells us:
“Results from Austria show that turnout of 16- and 17-year-olds is in fact higher than turnout of older first-time voters and is nearly as high as the overall turnout”.
The argument extends well beyond the simple issue of turnout. If not turning out were a reason for disenfranchising a group of people, all sorts would lose their vote. Some of us might say that, if maturity is the test of whether someone should be enfranchised, many older people would find themselves excluded. Indeed, extensive analysis of voting intentions in the Scottish referendum tells us that it was middle-aged men who took an arguably more emotional and less rational view in supporting independence. They could be said to have been immature.
Of course, their younger and older counterparts, and women, were a great deal more mature in their attitude to that particular question. Meanwhile, recent opinion polls and parliamentary election results might just suggest that it is an older demographic that is the most irrational and immature, giving reasons that seem to show that they are prepared to gamble with the country’s future in an effort to stop the world so they can get off. I suspect that even in your Lordships’ House nobody would argue that such emotional reactions warrant removing someone’s right to vote. Yet somehow that same argument is allowed to go unchecked in relation to 16 and 17 year-olds, whom people wrongly write off as unable to make a rational choice.
Again, there is some international evidence here. The Austrian experience is instructive. The latest study, to which I referred just now, also finds that while political interest was lower among younger than older age groups, young voters still made an informed choice when they cast their vote. It stated:
“The congruence between attitudes and the vote choice of teenage voters is comparable to adult voters”.
I know that the discussion goes on: why should 16 be right and 18 wrong? One of the strongest arguments is that those who cast their first vote at 16 are likely to do so in the community where they grow up, where it means something more to them than, perhaps, when they leave home and go to a different part of the country. We make so much in this country of the importance of a local link between representatives and those they represent. I endorse that, as someone who was very proud to represent the North Cornwall constituency for a fair number of years. That link is a key pillar in the argument for votes at 16.
In Norway, where they piloted votes at 16 just at local elections, the Institute of Social Research in Oslo found that turnout and interest is higher among 16 and 17 year olds than among the 18 to 24 year-old cohort. It says that two factors explain this:
First, 16 and 17 year-olds are more easily mobilised than their slightly older peers. They still go to school, live at home, and have not moved out of their local community. Second, the selected municipalities made considerable efforts to mobilise their young voters—this was also a prestige project.
It could and should become a prestige project here, too, with the aim of making a 16 year-old’s vote the first of many that they will cast through their life. Amendments tabled in the name of my noble friend Lord Roberts, along with the work done by Bite the Ballot, would also be crucial to that project, and to achieving success and extending the franchise. We will debate those amendments later this evening or on a future occasion.
We return from the Summer Recess celebrating that our United Kingdom is still united, and with an unexpected bonus. The referendum opened up debate about how our democracy works and blew away old assumptions about participation. The idea that the electorate is congenitally apathetic was confounded by the response of the Scottish people to a real democratic choice. For too long it has been our political establishment that has been apathetic, content to leave things as they are in the hope that a few middle-aged voters in a few middle England marginal seats would deliver one or other party a tired victory at each election. Well, no more. Extending the franchise is a first step to reinvigorating our politics, creating a seamless link between citizenship education, voter registration and then active participation in the electoral process itself.
Our amendments argue that we should do this in Wales, but we should do it in the whole of our renewed United Kingdom, debunking the idea that these basic rights should differ around the UK. We argue for an equal, constant right for all 16 and 17 year-olds to vote in the election next year, the devolved elections after that and, certainly, in any referendum on the vital political and economic issue of the future of this country in Europe. This right should extend to all UK citizens with the responsibilities in society which 16 and 17 year-olds now bear. Any other outcome after the Scottish experience would amount to completely unacceptable discrimination—evidence of a disunited kingdom. Votes at 16 is a principle for which I and my colleagues have argued tirelessly. It is an idea whose time has come—now. I beg to move.
Baroness Gale (Lab)
My Lords, I shall speak to Amendment 18, which is in my name and that of my noble friend Lady Morgan of Ely. I am very pleased to follow the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, who made such an excellent case for votes for all 16 year-olds in all elections.
The Labour Party position is quite firmly that 16 year-olds should be able to vote in general elections. We believe that the time has now come for 16 year-olds in Wales to be able to vote in the Welsh Assembly elections. Ed Miliband confirmed at the Labour Party conference that there will be a manifesto commitment for next year’s general election, which will include a pledge to lower the voting age to 16 for general elections, as we pledged in the 2010 general election. That would allow more than 1.5 million 16 and 17 year-olds to participate in elections for the first time.
We saw how the 16 and 17 year-olds came out to vote in the Scottish referendum. The shadow Justice Secretary, Sadiq Khan, has said:
“Despite warnings from the sceptics, 16 and 17-year-olds did come out and vote and engage in the big issues over the future of Scotland. This is all the more reason why the voting age should be lowered for all elections. It’s an idea whose time has come”.
Labour has been calling for a lowering of the voting age for some time. After the referendum in Scotland, there is very little reason why it should not be full steam ahead for all the elections.
The Welsh Labour Government believe that lowering the voting age would demonstrate a strong commitment to an effective democracy in our nation. Encouraging and engaging young people in this way would help to improve voter turnout, again, as the recent experience in Scotland has shown. Lowering the voting age would also clearly demonstrate to young people in Wales that they are being taken seriously and that their views will be listened to. The Welsh Government support and value strong, effective democracy and recognise that the involvement of young people in the democratic process is essential to achieving that. At present, 16 and 17 year-olds are deemed old enough to pay taxes, leave school, marry and join the Armed Forces, along with a wide range of other responsibilities. Why should they be denied the right to vote on how those taxes are spent, as well as on the direction of education, defence and other public policies?
However, the Welsh Government currently do not have the power to legislate on the voting age for elections held in Wales, as the UK Government retain responsibility for the conduct of elections and for the franchise. That is why the amendment is before your Lordships’ House tonight. While the Welsh Labour Government do not have the power to lower the voting age across Wales, in decision-making they encourage youth and pupil participation and have enabled them to have an important voice in our society. One example is the Local Government (Wales) Measure 2011, which provided for the appointment of up to two community youth representatives to a community council.
In 2002, the Welsh Government established the Sunderland commission on electoral arrangements. It looked at local government electoral arrangements and recommended a reduction in the voting age to 16. Regulations from the Welsh Labour Government in 2005 also established school councils in maintained primary and secondary schools in Wales. They play a part in making key appointments, as well as implementing budget decisions and representing the views of their peers, which is part of learning about the democratic process. We have given that responsibility to younger people and they have shown that they can deal with it.
Wales Bill
Baroness Gale Excerpts(9 years, 7 months ago)
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Lord Roberts of Llandudno
My Lords, perhaps I might reply to my great colleague, the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, by saying that if you have only one vote as against two, the whole composition of the Assembly, including the one that is to make the further arrangements, will be totally distorted.
Baroness Gale (Lab)
My Lords, once again we have had a very interesting debate on how big the Assembly should be and how many seats it should have. I think that this debate has been going on since 1999, when the first Assembly sat. We know that many changes have been made in the Assembly that give it greater responsibilities, with increased powers to make decisions in Wales for Welsh people.
Many calls have been made about the number of Assembly Members. A number of reports have been published saying that 60 Members are insufficient to deal with holding the Executive to account. Increasing the number of Assembly Members has been endorsed by the Electoral Reform Society Cymru and by the Richard commission in 2004. In addition, we know that the current Presiding Officer, Dame Rosemary Butler, has endorsed this. The Richard commission said that there should be 80 seats. Silk 2 argued for the same and stated:
“The size of the … Assembly should be increased”.
In October 2013, the Electoral Reform Society and the Changing Union project published their report Size Matters and argued that there should be 100 Members, based on examination of legislatures across Europe and the competences for which the Assembly is now responsible.
As other noble Lords have said, there are only 42 Back-Benchers, which means that the ability to scrutinise legislation is severely curtailed owing to the capacity issues experienced by those Back-Benchers. We have noted that other noble Lords said earlier in the debate that the Assembly is small in relation to the Scottish Parliament, the Northern Ireland Assembly and other legislatures across the world. As the legislation becomes more complex, there is a necessity for our politicians in Wales to develop areas of specialist expertise. That is difficult for most Back-Bench AMs, as they are members of more than one committee and it is difficult to build up expertise. In debating this Bill, we will be discussing tax legislation—a new and complicated area where it will be essential that adequate scrutiny takes place. If the recommendations of the areas to be devolved from Silk 2 are taken up, there will obviously be still further pressure on Assembly Members.
Wales Bill
Baroness Gale Excerpts(9 years, 10 months ago)
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Baroness Gale (Lab)
My Lords, it is a great delight and a pleasure to speak on behalf of the Opposition in this debate on the Wales Bill as we take our further steps on this journey of devolution which—as noble Lords who have taken part in today’s debate have outlined—we have been travelling along for many a long year. Many of those who have taken part in this journey—and some started way before I did, including my noble and learned friend Lord Morris and the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan—have shared with us their breadth of experience today. It has been said that we will have an exciting time as the Bill goes through, and I would not be surprised if we do. We have set the scene today for that.
We have had a good debate that has shown the breadth of experience that we have in Wales on all matters of devolution, and I thank all noble Lords who have taken part. I also thank the Minister for opening the debate and explaining so clearly what the Bill is about and the Government’s view on it. This is a small but important Bill. Its measures are important for Wales and devolution alike, and I am glad that today’s debate has provided testimony to that. However, we would like the Minister to answer a few points. As noble Lords have mentioned, the Bill has three parts: electoral arrangements, tax devolution and borrowing powers. We have five main points to ask the Minister on those areas and about how we can work to enhance the Bill, which we will want to examine further in Committee and beyond.
Labour’s five main asks are: first, that the Government accept the basic principle that Assembly elections are a matter for the Assembly itself—I will speak on that later; secondly, that the Minister explain why the Government are acting against their own and other evidence by removing the ban on dual candidacy; thirdly, that the Government make clear their position on tax competition and on whether, given recent changes in the Wales Office, for example, they still wish to start tax competition between the nations of the UK; fourthly, that the Minister explain how the Government arrived at the limit on capital borrowing and how that compares with the limit in Scotland; and, finally, that the Government consider enhancing the Wales Bill to include details of the next steps towards a model of reserved powers. I am sure that the Minister will deal with those points as we make progress during the Bill’s passage.
On Assembly elections, the Government have championed the greater responsibility that the Wales Bill will give to the Welsh Government. Yet, the very first part of the Bill is a change to Assembly elections that is being made through this Parliament and not through the Welsh Assembly. Many noble Lords have spoken on that, including the noble Lord, Lord Bourne, who gave his clear views; the noble Baroness, Lady Humphreys; and the noble Lord, Lord Thomas—who warned me this morning that he would attack the Welsh Government. He certainly lived up to that in his contribution. The noble Lord, Lord Wigley, also spoke about that issue. It was interesting that he also talked about the gender balance. I have previously heard the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, say that it is impossible to carry on with the low numbers in the Assembly. In a previous debate he talked about 90 Members, but now he has mentioned 120. I was very interested that the noble Lord, Lord Roberts of Llandudno, said that we should have not a ban but the most outstanding candidates. I hope that we have outstanding candidates in Wales, whatever position they take and whatever the list or constituency. I have no doubt that we do, in all parties.
That poses a question. Why do the Government not allow the Welsh Assembly to set the parameters of their own election system? Why should the UK Parliament dictate to the Welsh Assembly what election method should be used? A number of noble Lords raised that issue in the debate. The Welsh Government believe that they should have the responsibility for this. In their response to the Wales Office Green Paper, they said that,
“no change to the Assembly’s current electoral arrangements should be made without the Assembly’s consent. This is the fundamental constitutional principle in issue”.
We agree with that fundamental principle, and it is disappointing that the UK Government do not share that view. We will continue to make what should be an uncontentious point—that Assembly elections should be a matter for the Assembly. We strongly believe that these matters should be decided in Wales by the Welsh Assembly.
A number of Members had views on dual candidacy. We think that the Government should explain why they are acting against their own evidence, and that of the Bevan Foundation, in removing the ban. Labour shares the wider concerns of the public that removing the ban is anti-democratic. Allowing losing candidates effectively to get elected by the back door is clearly not what voters want. At a time when voter engagement is low, having a system that allows losing candidates to be elected elsewhere will not instil confidence in the system.
It is not surprising that two significant surveys on dual candidacy found a clear majority in favour of the ban. One was the Government’s own consultation, the other a Bevan Foundation study. According to the Government’s consultation, a small majority was in favour of the ban on dual candidacy. The report states:
“In March 2013 the Secretary of State … announced the Government’s intention to remove the prohibition on dual candidacy at Assembly elections. A small majority of respondents to the consultation were in favour of retaining the ban, but the Government does not think that a strong enough case for this was made in the consultation responses”.
Why put the question, if the Government then ignore the answers?
The Explanatory Notes to the Wales Bill suggest that this change will benefit smaller parties in Wales:
“studies by the Electoral Commission and others … have demonstrated that the prohibition has a disproportionate impact on smaller parties who have a smaller pool of potential candidates to draw upon”.
That quote is from the Government’s own papers. We are changing the law because some parties cannot find enough candidates in Wales to field at election time. The only way round this is to allow them to stand in the constituency and in the list. Giving a helping hand to smaller parties is not a good enough reason for a change, as proposed in the Bill. Will the Minister explain why the Government are ignoring their own evidence by pressing ahead with what we believe is an anti-democratic change? Many noble Lords spoke about this and I know that there are strong feelings on both sides. We intend to pursue this in Committee, and I am sure that there will be further arguments and debate on it.
My noble friend Lady Morgan outlined our views on income taxation. As she said, it is probably the most controversial part of the Bill. We believe that the proposals outlined in the Bill on income tax devolution are not a priority and that there would have to be a referendum on it if it were brought about in the Welsh Assembly. Many noble Lords recalled today how we started on this journey. In 1979, no counties in Wales voted in favour. We made a progression as the years went by, after we recovered from that awful campaign— I think that both sides could use that term.
Lord Elystan-Morgan
I make one small correction: Cardiganshire was an exception. It did vote for it.
Baroness Gale
I thank the noble Lord for his intervention. He may be able to pull me up on other things. I know that he has a fantastic memory and experience in this field.
We believe that we should have a referendum on income taxation. Many noble Lords referred to the 1997 referendum. I worked hard on it, as did a number of other noble Lords. The Labour Party policy then was not like that for Scotland because Wales is not a mirror image of Scotland. We do not do things just because Scotland has done it. It might not suit our country. However, we do what is best for Wales. I am sure that others would agree that we probably would not have won the 1997 referendum if there had been a question on income tax in it. It was so close that we could not have included that. We have now progressed further and we will discuss it further. We agree with the Government that a referendum is needed on this. However, we support the other taxes—the landfill tax and the stamp duty land tax—as a means to give the Welsh Government borrowing powers. As my noble friend indicated, we will want to look at this again in Committee.
My noble friend Lady Morgan spoke about the borrowing limits and a number of other noble Lords have also referred to them. I have no doubt that we will debate them further as we progress through the course of the Bill.
It was interesting that many noble Lords felt that we should have the reserved powers. My noble friend Lord Rowlands said that he wished to explore this in Committee, and I know that we will. The noble Lord, Lord Wigley, my noble and learned friend Lord Morris and my noble friend Lord Howarth spoke about them, as did others. We want to amend the Bill to set in motion Wales’s move to a model of reserved powers.
The former Secretary of State was opposed to reserved powers. As a result, the Attorney-General referred Welsh legislation to the Supreme Court, at great cost to the taxpayer. The recent outright rejection of the UK Government’s challenge to the agricultural wages Bill by the Supreme Court made the case for reserved powers even stronger. With such a decisive ruling, we will once again be looking at ways in which we can persuade the Government to use this Bill to move to reserved powers. However, the next Labour Government will legislate to give Wales reserved powers. I look forward to what the Minister has to say on these matters, and I am sure that we will be discussing them at later stages.
This has been a very important debate and I am grateful for the opportunity to speak to the measures in the Bill. I hope that the Minister will be able to address the concerns that I have raised. We will continue to raise these concerns in Committee through to Third Reading in order to improve the Bill. We support a number of measures in the Bill but we believe that it can be improved. We will be tabling amendments which we hope will make the Bill more beneficial for the people of Wales.
I look forward to our further debates in Committee and at later stages. I am sure that we will have even more interesting and exciting debates and that we will conduct them in the spirit of today’s debate. I look forward to the following stages of the Bill and I now look forward to what the Minister has to say.
Wales: Economy
Baroness Gale Excerpts(10 years, 2 months ago)
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Baroness Gale (Lab)
My Lords, I congratulate my noble friend Lady Morgan of Ely on securing this debate. Since the advent of devolution in 1999, Wales has seen many changes. One big change was the election of so many women—it was the first time in the history of Wales that such a number had been elected—with women Cabinet members holding important portfolios and providing good role models for the women of Wales.
How does this have an effect on the economy of Wales, with women being generally lower paid than men and more likely to be working part time, and with so few women at the top table? Women in all walks of life in Wales are undervalued. The recent report from the Equality and Human Rights Commission in Wales, Who runs Wales? A Lost Decade—No Change shows that Wales remains a country where those taking the major decisions that impact on everyone in Wales are overwhelmingly men. What is needed is better representative decision-making in all walks of life, at both the Wales and the UK level. Organisations, especially business and industry, are not using all the talents of Wales. There are so many women who could, if they were allowed, play a big role in driving the economy of Wales.
I was therefore pleased to see that the Welsh Assembly has recently established a cross-party group which will consider new research on women and the economy. It will be looking at several things, such as gender segregation, career progression, the under-utilisation of women’s skills in the Welsh economy, the under-representation of women in business, and modern working practices. That is really important if the aim is to use all the talents that we have in Wales. Women can, and want to, play their full part in the economic life of Wales. The findings of the group will, we hope, find a way forward for women and for Wales. Are any similar initiatives being carried out by the UK Government?
I will now consider some of the measures that the Welsh Government are carrying out to improve the economy of Wales, despite the fact that the cuts made by the UK Government have put the brakes on economic growth in Wales. Those unprecedented cuts mean that, by 2015-16, the Welsh budget will be nearly £1.7 billion lower in real terms than it was in 2010-11. To combat that, the Welsh Government have made the Welsh economy their top priority. As the First Minister, Carwyn Jones, said at the Welsh Labour Party Conference in Llandudno recently:
“There is now unquestionable evidence to show that as a direct result of Welsh Labour policies and intervention and our drive to sell Wales to the world—the Welsh recovery is well underway and in Wales, we are now well placed to take full advantage of any economic upturn … Wales is good place to do business … That is why Wales beat competition from England and Scotland to host the first Pinewood Studio outside London—an investment that will help bring 2,000 new jobs to Wales—recognition that we are now world leaders in creative industries”.
The new 180,000 square-foot studio facility in Cardiff is set to generate an estimated £90 million spent on Welsh business.
Another initiative that my noble friend mentioned is Superfast Cymru; she gave all the figures on that. It should reach completion by spring 2016. That would be a further boost to efforts to attract inward investment.
Unemployment is now lower in Wales than in the UK, and that is to be welcomed. Youth unemployment is also below the UK average, with a 22.5% reduction in the number of 16 to 17 year-olds without work in Wales over the past year, compared with a drop of just 1.2% in the rest of the UK—figures that clearly evidence that the Welsh Government’s policies are working for Wales and that they are stronger than in the rest of the United Kingdom. The Welsh Government have a good record of using all the economic levers at their disposal to encourage economic growth and support opportunities for inward investment and job creation in the Welsh economy
Wales is a small country with big ideas. The Welsh Government are working hard with business and industry to improve the lives of Welsh people. It would be good if the United Kingdom Government could stop criticising Wales and perhaps work in a more constructive way than they have been recently. Working together in partnership would be to the benefit of Wales and the whole of the UK. Perhaps we would then see an even better improvement in the economy of Wales.
Local Authorities (Contracting Out of Tax Billing, Collection and Enforcement Functions) (Amendment) (Wales) Order 2013
Baroness Gale Excerpts(11 years, 2 months ago)
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Lord Rowlands
I wish to ask two questions. First, how much contracting out has been carried out since the 1996 order was introduced? What percentage of local authorities have already contracted out in this field? The Minister referred to my next point. One should perhaps be concerned that we are handing over information on the personal financial matters of individuals and families to a variety of different organisations which might have potential conflicts of interest as opposed to a local authority, which will not, because it is a statutory body. The Minister talked about safeguards and data protection but if you diversify and decentralise in the manner in which this order hopes and expects, how will the individual be safe in the knowledge that his or her finances cannot be abused in any way? At least when the local authority has this information, it is a statutory body and therefore is obviously accountable in every sense of the word. How will that accountability be enforced across a range of other organisations or companies that will be delivering these services?
Baroness Gale
My Lords, I thank the Minister for placing this order before us today. As she has outlined, its purpose is to amend the Local Authorities (Contracting Out of Tax Billing, Collection and Enforcement Functions) Order 1996. From April 2013, council tax benefit will be abolished and council tax reduction schemes will be introduced in Wales under the Local Government Finance Act 2012. In future, instead of receiving council tax benefit, low-income families will receive a reduction in their council tax. Currently, local authorities can contract out of administering the collection of council tax. The order we are debating is required to ensure that the new administrative functions are part of the council tax reduction scheme and can also be contracted out if local councils wish to do so. Those functions include such things as sending out decision letters and serving penalty notices. The noble Lord, Lord Wigley, and my noble friend Lord Rowlands asked some very interesting questions on those issues and I look forward to the Minister’s reply to them.
The drafting of the order is relatively uncontroversial but it is unfortunate that we have it at all. It comes about as a result of the Government’s decision to abolish council tax benefit. They are scrapping the national benefit and passing responsibility for it to local authorities in England and to the Welsh and Scottish Governments, and cutting funding by 10%. We accept that the Welsh Government have responsibility for the details of any schemes and are fully involved in setting up these details. The principle of getting rid of council tax benefit dismays us very much. In England, we see people on low incomes being asked to pay sums of money that they simply cannot afford. Most councils have had no option but to pass on some of the cuts. As a result, many low-income households currently exempt from council tax will have to pay it for the first time. Typically, they will have to pay between £96 and £225 a year. In Wales, a 10% cut would amount to an annual cut of some £74 per council tax benefit claimant. I wonder whether the Government fully understand the impact this will have on low-income families. Government Ministers have praised the freeze on council tax, which may, indeed, be welcomed by those on modest and high incomes. However, the removal of council tax benefit from those on the lowest incomes means an increase in what they will have to pay.
The Government say that pensioners must be protected from the cuts, which means that others face larger cuts, depending on the number of pensioners in a local authority. If councils also try to protect other vulnerable groups, such as disabled people or carers, the cuts enforced on working families will be even more severe. Because of the number of pensioners the average reduction across local authorities will work out at some 16%. In January the Welsh Minister for Social Justice and Local Government, Carl Sergeant, announced a £22 million support package to continue offering the full council tax discounts in Wales, and under prudent financial management the Welsh Government have been able to fund their proposals out of their reserves.
It has been a difficult time for the Welsh Government. They have had to balance an enormous number of cuts and manage them while facing a difficult budgetary situation. Towards the end of the winter they were able to see the effects on households of other welfare benefit cuts. They knew that they were perhaps not going to have so many payments for such things as severe winter weather. They were in a position to use that money for council tax discount. However, that prompts the question as to whether it can continue to be used in the future. It will certainly not be easy and councils are aware of the pressures on them.
Given that the Government are going ahead with the change, the Welsh Government and Welsh local authorities need the regulations in place as soon as possible. We will not oppose these regulations tonight.
Baroness Randerson
My Lords, I thank noble Lords for their questions and remarks this afternoon. In principle this order does not change the way that councils deal with council tax. To deal with the first point of the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, it has always been possible for councils to contract out billing, collection and enforcement. Councils have been able to appoint an external provider to undertake some administrative functions. This order simply enables this to continue under the new arrangements from 1 April when council tax benefit will no longer exist.
As always I will try my best to answer the questions that noble Lords have asked. The noble Lord, Lord Wigley, asked whether this would mean greater privatisation. This order does not extend the powers that the local authorities already have to contract out their administrative functions in relation to council tax. As I have said, it allows them to apply them to the new council tax reduction schemes that are no longer part of the social security benefit system.
Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions (Representations and Appeals) (Wales) Regulations 2013
Baroness Gale Excerpts(11 years, 4 months ago)
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Lord Jones
My Lords, I will be brief. I am grateful to the Minister for her considerate introduction to the regulations. However, do we have no statistics whatever from 2010 or 2011 on the number of immobilisations or appeals? Has the Welsh Local Government Association made no representations to the Government or to the Welsh Assembly Government? Is there an estimate of the amount of work that we are passing to local government in Wales? Do we have any insight into what the four constabularies have put on record about this change? It would be helpful for the Committee to know the scale of the work that we are passing on. That seems to be a foundation question.
Baroness Gale
My Lords, I thank the Minister for bringing these important regulations before us today. We welcome them, as they are what the Welsh Government have requested and have been working on for some time. The package gives powers to local authorities effectively to manage traffic, which will help to reduce delays and tackle congestion. I am aware that the Welsh Government have worked closely with local authorities, the British Parking Association, the police, the UK Government and their legal services in preparing the regulations, which will complement and consolidate the powers that local authorities were given on 31 March 2008 to take civil enforcement action against parking contraventions.
It is important to note that these powers will not stop the police from taking action where necessary, although the main rationale for the changes is that the police are not able to make the enforcement of bus lanes and road traffic contraventions priorities for action. I can give the example of Cardiff where there are bus lanes which, of course, only buses should be using. However, Cardiff Council is unable to take action against other vehicles using those lanes because they do not have the enforcement powers to do so. The Welsh Government believe that these regulations will help improve the punctuality and appeal of local bus services because if the bus lanes are clear, the buses can get to their destinations a lot more quickly. The Welsh Government think that this will help to further the sustainability of bus services, which we know are so important to many of our communities in Wales.
This is a key part of the Welsh Government’s economic and social objectives and is consistent with their national transport plan which was published in December 2011. However, it is important that these powers are used appropriately and that the public can trust the decisions made by enforcement officers. The enforcement of the bus lane and road traffic contraventions will be based on evidence captured on camera and other approved recording equipment and devices. Another set of regulations will be brought forward to deal with those, as the Minister has explained.
The Welsh Government are in discussions with the Vehicle Certification Agency on the terms of the technical service agreement to certify on behalf of Welsh Ministers that the cameras and associated equipment used to enforce parking restrictions in bus lanes and certain road traffic contraventions are fit for purpose. It is important that local authorities are accountable for their decisions and that residents know how the money raised from fines is used, a point made earlier by other noble Lords.
In terms of accountability, the local authorities using these powers will be required to send copies of their income and expenditure accounts to Welsh Ministers as part of an annual report about their enforcement activities. This will highlight the impact on journey times along key routes. It is also important that the appeal system and the independent adjudicator are set up, which is what we are dealing with today. The regulations specify the procedure for making representations and ensure that people given a penalty charge will be able to see the evidence against them and are given the opportunity to challenge it. For example, they may not have owned the vehicle at the time the penalty was incurred.
Following the results of the consultation, the regulations stipulate that local authorities must be responsible for handling representations themselves rather than the responsibility being contracted out. That is to be welcomed as it ensures that people will know that they can go directly to their council, thus maintaining a direct and transparent link. It is planned that the regulations will be backed up by statutory operational guidance that will provide more detailed advice on the use of the new powers. It is important that that guidance is well publicised. The Welsh Government are planning to work closely with local authorities, the British Parking Association and others to prepare the guidance, which they plan to publish this year.
These are sensible regulations that should make a difference to road travel in Wales, especially in town centres and other busy areas. In supporting these plans, I understand that the Welsh Government are anxious to go ahead with implementation at the earliest opportunity. Can the Minister tell us when the regulations will be put before the House of Commons, as I understand that no date has as yet been fixed? Will she also agree to use her influence to ensure that there are no further delays in order to enable the Welsh Government and local authorities to move forward quickly on the implementation of these regulations? In the mean time, I thank the Minister for placing these regulations before us, and of course we fully support them.
Empowerment and Responsibility: Financial Powers to Strengthen Wales
Baroness Gale Excerpts(11 years, 6 months ago)
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Baroness Gale
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, for giving us the opportunity to debate this important matter, and all noble Lords who have taken part in this short debate. I wish we could have had longer, but the contributions show the wisdom and the knowledge that we have in Wales, particularly with our Welsh Peers. Before giving our response to the report, I will ask the Minister two procedural questions.
First, why is the Wales Office limiting debate on such a vital constitutional matter to meetings of the Grand Committee in your Lordships’ House and the Welsh Grand Committee in the other place? The Minister will know that my honourable friend, the shadow Secretary of State for Wales, has written to the Wales Office asking that a debate be held on the Floor in the House of Commons. In his letter, my honourable friend urged the Secretary of State to hold a full debate so that Members from all parts of the United Kingdom would have the opportunity to participate. No reply has been received, but at Welsh Questions on 28 November in another place, the Secretary of State appeared to suggest that such a debate would not be held until legislation was introduced, which could possibly be two years away. Does the Minister agree that this debate should not be confined or restricted in this way and does she agree that the recommendations of the report are constitutionally significant enough to warrant a full debate in both Houses? I look forward to her comments on those points.
The second procedural point I will raise is the speed of the Government’s response. In a previous answer to me, the Minister said that the Wales Office was,
“committed to dealing with this with all due speed”.—[Official Report, 27/11/12; col. 88.]
However, since then, we have heard that the Government may not respond formally until spring next year. Can the Minister explain why it seems to be taking the Government longer than anticipated to respond to the report?
The Silk report is an important publication, which has wide-ranging recommendations for Wales and the rest of the United Kingdom. We welcome the report and congratulate the commission on its work. We agree with the list of taxes that Silk suggests should remain under the full remit of the United Kingdom Government and should not be devolved. We welcome the recommendation that certain taxes, such as stamp duty land tax and the aggregates levy, should be devolved to Wales and the recommendation that the devolution of these taxes should pave the way for borrowing powers for the Welsh Government, which would enable Ministers in Cardiff Bay to offset the impact of the 45% cut to their capital budget and allow them to further invest in jobs and growth. Can the Minister confirm that the devolution of these taxes would constitute an income stream against which the Welsh Government could borrow? What discussions has she had to this effect?
Furthermore, does the Minister accept that enabling the Welsh Government to borrow against this income stream—in addition to the devolution of the taxes in their own right—would be to the benefit of people in Wales? When it comes to the devolution of income tax-varying powers, the commission has recommended what my honourable friend the shadow Secretary of State described as a triple-lock test. Such devolution should be to Wales’s financial benefit and, to test as much, a nominal amount of Welsh income tax receipts—Silk suggests £2 billion—should be assigned to the Welsh Government without the ability to vary rates.
Proceeding with a test case is a sensible approach because Silk’s evidence suggests that it is far from clear that such devolution would be in Wales’s financial interest. Whether or not it would prove to be so would depend on the change in Wales’s income tax receipts and on the change in income tax receipts from the rest of the United Kingdom. If the Welsh change is higher, Wales will stand to benefit. However, Silk alludes to the fact that Wales was hit particularly hard by the recession and so, if this approach had been in place from the time the global financial crisis hit in 2008, Wales would now be worse off.
Since the Government took the United Kingdom into a double-dip recession, it could well be the case that Welsh income tax receipts have decreased by more than income tax receipts in the rest of the United Kingdom. In other words, Wales is being hit disproportionately hard by the Government’s failing economic policies. That is why the first test is crucial; there is no guarantee that the multiplier will be positive over the next few years. Is the Minister aware of any analysis or modelling that has been forecast regarding this first test? Does she acknowledge that Wales may be disproportionately hit by the Government’s failing policies?
The second test set by Silk concerns reform of the UK’s wider funding formula. Before devolving income tax, a funding agreement needs to be reached that is fair to all of the UK. Silk’s view is that that the Barnett formula would need to be revisited before income tax-varying powers were devolved. I would welcome the Minister’s comments on whether this view is shared by the Government.
The third of the triple-lock tests is that before income tax-varying powers are devolved to the Welsh Government, there should be—I believe that there must be—a referendum. Silk accepts this principle and we share the view expressed in the report that there,
“is a special nature to income tax”,
which necessitates approval from the Welsh people. These three tests would allow for the devolution of income tax-varying powers on the provisos that it would be in Wales’s short and long-term financial interests and that it would speak to the will of the Welsh people.
This debate has given an opportunity for the Minister to shed some light on the Government’s thinking and to inform your Lordships of the progress that the Wales Office has made on this report. I would be grateful for the Minister’s comments on the triple-lock test, as well as on the other questions that I raised. I look forward to her response.
Welsh Government: Tax-varying Powers
Baroness Gale Excerpts(11 years, 6 months ago)
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Baroness Gale
My Lords, the Minister will know that the Silk commission’s recommendations included changes to taxation that would have implications extending beyond Wales and having consequences for the whole of the United Kingdom. Does she agree that Members from all parts of the United Kingdom in both Houses should be able to debate the report in full? Can she give some idea when the Government will respond to the report? I know she said earlier that it would be in due course.
Baroness Randerson
It is important to bear in mind that there were 33 recommendations in the report. That very complex set of recommendations was presented to us as a package; nevertheless, there is a series of different strands associated with them. Of course, as the noble Baroness rightly points out, they have implications well beyond the borders of Wales. Some of the recommendations could be implemented relatively quickly and without legislation, whereas others would require substantial amendments to the Government of Wales Act or legislation introduced by the Treasury. However, I can say that the Wales Office and the Government are committed to dealing with this with all due speed, but in a timely manner so that we give due and serious consideration to every recommendation.
Wales: Devolution
Baroness Gale Excerpts(11 years, 10 months ago)
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Baroness Gale
My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, for bringing this debate before us today. It gives us the opportunity to debate the important topic of the Silk commission’s remit while we await the report on part 1, which I understand will be published in late autumn. I thank all noble Lords for their contributions. It has been a typical Welsh debate, but I welcome the contribution of the noble Lord, Lord Maclennan, who is a non-Welsh Peer but all the more welcome. I thank him for his contribution.
Many contributors have said that we are on a journey of devolution—it is an evolution, not a big bang. We have had to take this step by step and, as my noble friend Lord Rowlands said, it is about building consensus on the way. I was there on the night we awaited the Carmarthen result, holding our breath. We certainly got that result and it was, for most of us, a great cause for celebration. Today’s debate gives me the opportunity of laying out Labour’s comments on the progress that has been made by the Silk commission, as well as our priorities regarding the two parts of the commission’s remit: on the devolution of fiscal powers, which would improve financial accountability and the powers of the National Assembly for Wales; and to recommend modifications to improve current arrangements.
The commission is due to report on part 1 in the autumn and, so far, it seems that the commission has been very well received across Wales. Individuals and organisations across the country have engaged constructively via written or oral evidence, or through attending one of the commission’s meetings—although, as my noble friend Lord Anderson said, they have not all been very well attended. On part 1 of the commission’s remit, we are clear that the Welsh Government should have borrowing powers so that they are able to invest in infrastructure. This is especially important given the 41% real-term cuts that the coalition Government in Westminster have inflicted on the Welsh Government in Cardiff Bay.
Many noble Lords have talked about the poll conducted by ICM recently, in which eight out of 10 people supported the idea of granting the Welsh Government borrowing powers. I think that all noble Lords have said that that is where we should be going. The poll suggests that this proposal is likely to have the wide support in Wales that, as I am sure all noble Lords will agree, is essential for any change. The Welsh Government are the only elected institution in the UK, at any level, that do not have borrowing powers. As other noble Lords have said, even community councils in Wales have that power.
One striking result of the poll was the level of support for giving the Welsh Government the power to borrow, especially for capital projects such as schools, roads and hospitals. It seems that the Welsh people are happy with the nudge taxes we have been talking about, such as the carrier bag levy, which has proved such a success and has altered people’s behaviour, with an up to 90% fall in the usage of carrier bags. This was not a tax—the Welsh Assembly does not benefit financially from it, as the money goes to charity—but we have benefitted environmentally.
In a statement on 17 July, in reference to the opinion poll, Paul Silk, the chair of the commission, said:
“A majority of people believed that if the Welsh Government is given responsibility for taxation and spending it would be more accountable, the economy in Wales would be stronger, and public service would improve”.
It was also clear that people wanted to be consulted on the devolution of taxes such as income tax through a referendum. I think we would all agree that in those circumstances a referendum would be essential—many noble Lords have spoken about the difficulties of having an income tax in Wales.
In a Statement to the Welsh Assembly in June, the First Minister, Carwyn Jones, set out the Welsh Government’s position on financial reform and called for a comprehensive reform of Wales’s financial powers. He said that landfill tax, stamp duty, the aggregates levy and air passenger duty could be devolved to Wales as part of a new package of fiscal measures, but that the priority remains the reform of the Barnett formula, and that the Welsh Government should have the same borrowing powers as the other devolved nations. As the First Minister said in an earlier statement:
“We can’t go ahead with fiscal devolution without the funding being addressed otherwise we risk locking ourselves into the current Barnett formula which is to our detriment”.
This is the key question that needs to be addressed. In the mean time, we support the immediate introduction of a Barnett floor, as the Holtham commission recommended, while we await a long-term solution. This would stop any further escalation of Wales’s underfunding problem in future years. I understand that there are ongoing intergovernmental talks with the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, Danny Alexander, and the Welsh Finance Minister, Jane Hutt, with the aim of finding a fair funding settlement for Wales which includes discussion on the Barnett floor. Can the Minister say how these talks are progressing?
On the devolution of tax-varying powers, we believe that there may be some value in devolving some of the taxes under consideration. As I said earlier, the First Minister gave us the examples of air passenger duty, stamp duty, landfill tax and the aggregates levy.
As for phase 2 of the commission, it is regrettable that one of the key issues that the Silk commission might have considered—the electoral arrangements for the Welsh Assembly—was considered not by the commission but rather in the Green Paper on electoral reform which the Secretary of State for Wales published recently and was debated in Grand Committee on June 18. In fact, the issue that we are debating today is notable for being the one constitutional issue where the Government have adopted a broadly consensual approach. On other constitutional matters there has not been such a consensus—such as the review of parliamentary boundaries which, if the proposals go ahead, will see a 25% reduction in Welsh representation, 10 fewer MPs, a weakening of the Welsh voice in the other place and, of course, the proposed changes on how the Welsh people elect their Assembly Members. Far greater dialogue should have been taking place with the Welsh Government and the Secretary of State on this matter, rather than the “top down” approach.
Its seems that the coalition Government are far more interested in these constitutional matters than they are in addressing the real issues facing families in Wales, such as the high cost of living, an economy in recession and high unemployment. So while we note the good progress that the commission is making and that its voice is important, it is not our top priority. Jobs and growth are our priority. Today’s unemployment figures for Wales stand at 9%, and an increase of 2,000 more people without jobs means more heartache for Welsh families. Commenting on these figures, the Secretary of State for Wales said that she was “disappointed but not surprised”, and urged firms to seize the opportunity offered by rail electrification. While we welcome these announcements, it will take time for jobs to materialise. In the mean time, what seems to concern the Secretary of State is the consultation on the electoral arrangements for the Welsh Assembly, and the Commission on Devolution in Wales, neither of which will provide jobs for Welsh people now.
The Secretary of State for Wales met with the Silk commission this week to receive a report on what progress is being made. Can the Minister tell your Lordships’ House the results of that meeting? I hope that there will be an opportunity to have a fuller debate when the commission completes its work. We can then see what the recommendations are, what the Government’s response will be and, more importantly, what the Welsh Assembly and Welsh Government’s views are. I suggest to the Minister that if we do have a debate on the recommendations—as we have had a two and a half hour debate today, and I think that we could have gone on longer, perhaps a lot longer—perhaps we could have a five-hour debate next time so that we can explore everything and have the time to put our views on what we think of it. In the mean time, I look forward to the Minister’s response to our debate today.
Wales: National Assembly Elections
Baroness Gale Excerpts(11 years, 11 months ago)
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Baroness Gale
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his opening remarks and I thank all those who have spoken. We have had a good typical Welsh debate, and a welcome contribution from my noble friend from Scotland, for which I thank him very much. The speeches set out the often different views of the political parties in Wales, and those of the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan. I note that the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, mentioned the remarks of Peter Hain, who said that there could be confusion about the different boundaries. He said that in relation to having elections on the same day, rather than about the confusion of having permanently different boundaries for Parliament and the Welsh Assembly. The noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, praised my noble friend Lady Morgan of Ely for being on the Front Bench. However, I think he elevated her a little too soon. I have absolutely no doubt that one day she will be on our Front Bench. I asked her if she would like to sit with me to keep me company. Obviously, her great speech made one think that she was on the Front Bench.
Lord Elystan-Morgan
I do not want to elevate myself too high, but sometimes I have the eye of the prophet.
Baroness Gale
I can agree with that. I thank my noble friend for her great speech in which she mentioned that the Green Paper expressed hope that there would be no advantage to any party. The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, mentioned the voting figures and how things were working out, and raised the issue of party-political advantage. I welcome the Secretary of State saying that there should be no advantage to any political party. However, when one looks at the voting figures and the regional list results that my noble friend Lord Touhig mentioned, one sees that on an all-Wales basis Labour got 36.9% of the vote—the highest percentage—and two seats. The Liberal Democrats got 8% of the vote and four seats.
Baroness Randerson
The noble Baroness overlooks the point of the list system, which is to put right the disproportionality of the first past the post system. In the three recent elections in Wales, the overall proportionality of both list and constituency seats resulted in the three main parties getting roughly the same number of seats as they got percentages of the vote, although the Labour Party always got a higher percentage of seats than of the vote.
Baroness Gale
I thank the noble Baroness for that intervention. Perhaps I may remind noble Lords that it was the Labour Party that brought in devolution and agreed that there would be an element of proportionality. We wanted a brand-new institution in 1999. I and many others in the Labour Party did not want it to look like the old Glamorgan County Council that many of us could remember, which was totally dominated by the Labour Party and had very few representatives from other parties. With the new institution we wanted to involve all parties so that everybody who voted for the smaller parties would have a chance to be represented in the Welsh Assembly. I am very proud that the Labour Party was able to do that.
Gender balance has been mentioned a few times this afternoon. The gender balance in the Welsh Assembly has been pretty good. Again, much of this was brought about by the Labour Party. We guessed that we would win most of our seats in the constituencies, so our policy was to have an equal number of male and female candidates. As a result, a good number of women were elected in the first election, and by 2003 there were an equal number of men and women. It was the first democratically elected institution in the world to have an equal number of men and women. Proportionality does not necessarily mean that you will get more women unless every party puts them at the top of the list.
As my noble friend Lord Touhig said, this consultation paper has been brought out at a time when the people of Wales have much to concern them. Many are concerned about their jobs, or lack of them—young people are worrying about whether they will get a job—and about the lack of economic growth. I refer, for example, to young couples wanting to buy a house. These are the issues worrying Welsh people today. I assure the Minister, as other noble Lords did, that they are not particularly concerned about electoral arrangements for the Welsh Assembly, which must surely come at the bottom of their list of their concerns. Unfortunately, Welsh people have much more important things to worry about.
Since the referendum of 1997 when the Welsh people voted in favour of devolution, all major changes have been made after either a manifesto commitment or a referendum that allowed them to decide how they wanted devolution to evolve. We are not advocating a referendum before any changes are made, but there should be at least a manifesto commitment in the spirit of devolution to allow Welsh people to make their views known.
The Green Paper offers four matters to be consulted on: the size of the constituencies, the ratio of list Members to the constituencies, and the retention of 60 seats, although a number of noble Lords today have mentioned 80 seats. Indeed, I thought I heard for the first time the figure of 90 mentioned. Eighty seats have been talked about in the past, but everyone recognises that this is not the time to increase the number of seats in the Assembly. The Green Paper also asks whether there should be a fixed term of five years, whether candidates should stand for both constituency and regional lists, and whether AMs can also be MPs or Peers.
We already have four-year fixed terms, but it has been agreed that this Assembly will serve a five-year term until 2016 to avoid clashing with the planned general election in 2015. Should we now move to a permanent five-year fixed term? If we revert back to a four-year term, we will get the same problems in 2020 when the general election and the Assembly elections would be held on the same day. I think that the general feeling is to hold the elections at separate times. We all know why that would probably be for the best, but it is right that we should consult on the matter. However, there is a widely held view that the two elections should not clash.
In the Government of Wales Act 2006, the Labour Government did away with what we believed was the anomaly of allowing a candidate to stand both for a constituency seat and in the regional list. That was a manifesto commitment made for the 2005 election. It was something that confused the Welsh electorate. A candidate who was defeated in the constituency could then become a Member of the Welsh Assembly by virtue of being on the regional list. It is now clear that defeated candidates in the constituency cannot gain a list seat; they must make a choice on whether to stand for the constituency or in the regional list.
Should people be able to serve in the Assembly and in the House of Commons or the House of Lords? It will be interesting to see what comes out of this consultation. There is a view that there should be some degree of overlap for a period of time because if someone who is a Member of the House of Commons is then elected to the Assembly, there should be a period of overlap to allow exchanges to take place. That happened in 1999 when a number of MPs were elected to the Welsh Assembly and stood down at the next general election. It also happens the other way around, with AMs being elected to the House of Commons.
The present arrangement of 40 constituency seats and 20 list seats, a ratio of two-thirds to one-third, is how the Assembly has been elected since 1999. If the boundaries change and the number of constituency and list seats changes from the present ratio of 40:20 to 30:30, this will be regarded as a major change, not just a minor adjustment in how Members of the Assembly are elected. The Secretary of State says in the Green Paper that the Government prefer option 2, to make the parliamentary boundaries and the Assembly boundaries the same. She states that there is,
“greater complexity in having different boundaries for Parliamentary and Assembly elections than the present arrangement”.
However, Scotland has different boundaries, which means that an analysis could be made to see if there are difficulties for Scottish electors when they cast their votes. However, to my knowledge, no analysis has been made. There is no evidence to suggest that there are problems in Scotland and therefore no evidence to justify the case the Secretary of State is making for the 30:30 ratio. We note that the Government are not proposing such a measure for Scotland.
The fundamental point of principle here is that it is for the people of Wales to decide on major changes to their electoral arrangements, either through a referendum or by a manifesto commitment. In a debate on the Green Paper in the Welsh Assembly on 12 June, First Minister Carwyn Jones said:
“I received an assurance on two occasions from the Prime Minister that there would be no change without the consent of the Assembly, and I am on record as saying that. I took that assurance in good faith and I expect it to be adhered to. However, the reality is that Scotland will continue to have different boundaries for Scottish Parliament and UK Parliament constituencies. If it works in Scotland, what evidence is there that it could not work in Wales? None is offered”.
I am very pleased to see the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, in his place today, taking part in our debate. He has confirmed that when he was Presiding Officer he too received assurances from the Prime Minister and the Secretary of State that there would be no changes to the boundaries to coincide with the Westminster boundaries. What are we to believe regarding commitments given by the Prime Minister as far as Wales is concerned? Last year we had a UK referendum on the voting system to the House of Commons but at least we knew this was a commitment of the coalition Government. Where was the commitment for this Green Paper? As the First Minister said last week, it has come “out of the blue”.
The Green Paper is before us and my party will play a constructive role by making a submission to the consultation. I understand that the Government will publish their response in November. When could we think of having a further debate on the Government’s proposals, and when can we expect legislation? Finally, I ask the Minister: why are the coalition Government reluctant to allow the Welsh people to decide on these matters for themselves? Why instead are they taking this top-down approach? It is our belief that it is for the people of Wales to decide what kind of electoral system they want. Let them decide what they believe is the best system to serve democracy in Wales. I look forward to the Minister’s response.