Education: 11 to 16 Year-olds

Baroness Garden of Frognal Excerpts

Thursday 8th February 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Garden of Frognal (LD)]

My Lords, our committee proved that the curriculum is vastly overloaded with knowledge-based things, does not include enough digital or computing, and in a lot of schools the arts are completely neglected. Nor does it include life skills, so our young people are coming out without the skills they need for the future. So what urgent action will the Government take so that our children have a more enjoyable and much more useful school experience than they are currently having?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I appreciate how alluring it is to talk about some of the wider subjects the noble Baroness mentioned. As she knows, we are developing a cultural education plan that will be launched later this year, and I accept that things such as the IT curriculum maybe do not age as well as some other elements of the curriculum. But, in terms of the way in which we all learn, and children learn, the importance of putting down in our long-term memory a really rich knowledge base from which to apply those skills is critical, and we lose that at our peril.

Religious Education in Schools

Baroness Garden of Frognal Excerpts

Thursday 18th January 2024 Grand Committee

[Baroness Garden of Frognal (LD)]

My Lords, it is a great pleasure to speak in this debate secured by the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries. His contributions to “Thought for the Day” are always enlightening—as are those of the noble Lord, Lord Griffiths—and start the day in a really good way. I hold him in great admiration and affection, particularly so after he gave a moving tribute to my husband at his funeral 16 years ago. He has written any number of books on religion and ethics but also on defence, literature and the arts—a veritable polymath, but also a very senior member of the Church of England. He was a founder member of the Oxford Abrahamic Group, bringing together Christian, Muslim and Jewish scholars, so his wish to improve religious education in schools is not confined to Christianity.

As we have heard, RE is a compulsory subject in schools, but you would not always know that. It can be taught by teachers who have no religious education themselves. It can be passed from pillar to post, with no one teacher taking responsibility. This is not exactly a new issue. Many years ago, I taught French A-level at a convent where one of the set texts was Flaubert’s story of Salome and the beheading of John the Baptist. My convent-educated and bright sixth-formers had never heard of John the Baptist. When I asked what they studied in their RE lessons, they said social issues, such as drug-taking, poverty and war, but not, it appeared, the Bible. My class therefore ended up doing more RE in French A-level than they did in RE. Luckily, they had heard about Jesus and knew about Christmas and Easter and that Catholics went regularly to Mass but, even in a convent, the Bible was a mystery.

As the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries, has mentioned, when Damian Hinds was heading the DfE—how transitory Education Ministers have been—he initiated the £10,000 tax-free bursaries to attract teachers into RE, but the standing committee on RE reports that little progress has been made. If there are so few specialist teachers, it is scarcely surprising that the subject is woefully taught.

RE lessons should be a place for exploring the great world faiths, ensuring that students have a moral compass. I agree with the comments that they should also encompass the other aspects of humanism. Bible stories should be part of general knowledge, quite apart from the value of learning about goodness and sacrifice and understanding religious diversity, toleration and peace. There should be open, in-depth discussions of faith, so that all students, whether from faith families or not, can learn what religion means to practitioners and how important it is to be tolerant of those whose beliefs are different from one’s own.

In our own communities, we see great division through religion, so it has to be good when Christian, Jewish and Muslim places of worship open their doors and welcome all to experience their forms of worship. To know is to understand and not to fear. But this will not be helped if children start life with no knowledge of religion. Can the Minister therefore say what consideration has been given to encouraging schools to work with local churches and faith groups to find people of religion for these lessons, and what plans do the Government have to ensure—as we are all calling for—that we have qualified teachers for this compulsory subject?

Educational Technology

Baroness Garden of Frognal Excerpts

Thursday 23rd November 2023 Grand Committee

[Baroness Garden of Frognal (LD)]

My Lords, I, too, thank the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, for initiating this relevant and highly pertinent debate. I confess that tech is not my area of expertise, but I have received so many briefings and emails and so much helpful advice that I am now well aware of the importance of edtech in schools.

I was a teacher before technology. If we needed to duplicate, we had a jelly tray on which you put one sheet at a time. I seem to remember the print came out purple, for some reason. The advent of photocopiers was a revolution to teachers—the heady days of yesteryear—but, as we have heard, educational technology is on the rise and, as the noble Baroness, Lady Harding, said, we cannot halt it. However, we need to learn how to manage it so that it is our servant and not our master. Much of what I was going to say has been said, but of course I have not said it. I shall try not to be repetitive.

There is always the danger that students are likely to be one step ahead of teachers, as the young have grown up with technology whereas many teachers have had to learn it. As others have pointed out, there are dangers for the social development of pupils if they rely too much on technology and not enough on their own learning. There is also a danger of taking the personal interaction between teacher and pupil out of the picture.

My daughter was a primary teacher during Covid, working excessive hours to ensure that her four year-old pupils continued their education, albeit in a strange and unusual way. Her first task was always to ensure that they had access to a computer and to an adult who could use it, and then to construct relevant and interesting lessons to ensure that they did not lose out. We share concerns about the Oak National Academy, which was set up during Covid to support remote learning, which was new to pupils and teachers. Can the Minister say what the status of the Oak National Academy is now? AI was supposed to help teachers with lesson planning and other materials that would reduce their workload, but it is not at all certain that that was achieved.

We have heard from Jen Persson, the director of Defend Digital Me, who writes:

“To reduce the debate on edTech to questions of data processing or particular pros and cons of a single product is to misunderstand the socio-political and economic underpinning and goals of the edTech market”.


Jen raises concerns that

“the introduction of many common technology tools, apps and platforms into the school setting means the introduction of hundreds, often thousands, of strangers who influence a child’s life through interactions with companies and their affiliates in the digital world”.

Others have pointed this out. They say these platforms are by no means secure and can

“bypass the gatekeepers within the school system to deliver EdTech directly to young people, their families and lifelong learners”.

In other words, the privacy and safety of children may be compromised by these exciting new tools. The issue of the privacy and safety of children must surely be addressed, as we heard from the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, and others.

For teachers who are overworked and underpaid, there could be help in their workload if they are provided with a personalised AI lesson-planning assistant, but, once again, we need to know how secure these assistants will be. Schools may decide to use tools and platforms to help with management and administration, monitor the progress of students and communicate with other staff members and even with parents. There are copious uses of AI. However, we raise concerns about the cost of the equipment, such as interactive whiteboards, laptops or tablets. They do not come cheap and, as we know only too well, school budgets are stretched to the limit. So what priority will these have in the decisions of head teachers? If payment for those things means that schools go without other things, we have to address that carefully.

We are certainly well aware of the use of edtech for special educational needs. My colleague, the noble Lord, Lord Addington, who is dyslexic, has always relied heavily on devices to assist him. Many other students with different needs will find invaluable the use of adaptive technologies, such as braille machines and other pieces of equipment for blind students. Edtech can be transformational for students who otherwise would miss out on education.

Could technology also be used to ease teacher workload of lesson planning, marking and assessment? Our teachers provide an amazing service to pupils, parents and the country, and anything that helps to reduce workload has to be welcomed. However, once again, we need to be assured of confidentiality in relation to young people. AI might tackle some of the administrative tasks that might keep teachers from investing more time with their peers or students.

There are arguments that edtech could contribute to pastoral support, mental health and pupils’ well-being, but surely only up to a point. The personal touch of teachers and parents can never be sidelined. According to the Government, the UK’s edtech sector is the largest in Europe. They also report that UK schools already spend an estimated £900 million a year on educational technology. If that means that it improves learner engagement and progress, this has to be money well spent. We know that during Covid edtech was invaluable, but surely machines, however sophisticated, can never replace face-to-face teaching.

I will digress slightly by saying, particularly in response to the comment by the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, that the noble Lords, Lord Knight and Lord Aberdare, and I are on a committee looking at 11-16 education, and we have concluded that GCSEs have completely failed our young people. Our report will come out in December, and I urge noble Lords to look at it because the whole process of 11-16 education is deeply flawed at the moment.

I look forward to the Minister’s reply and hope that the country’s students will be able to benefit from dedicated teachers and world-class technology.

Access to Musical Education in School

Baroness Garden of Frognal Excerpts

Wednesday 18th October 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Garden of Frognal (LD)]

My Lords, it is a great pleasure to join enthusiasts in this debate. When I asked a Question this week on music and other arts subjects, the Minister gave me to understand that all was well: generous bursaries would lure music teachers out of the woodwork and there would be money for music hubs. But there are still schools where there is no singing, no recorder playing and no banging of drums. As the noble Lord, Lord Boateng, has said, the EBacc has marginalised music.

I had two grandsons at a state primary school in Henley which has a very impressive musical tradition. The adult musicians had funded musical instruments for every state primary pupil to play. One grandson chose the double bass—which even as a child-size was quite an encumbrance—and played happily for two or three years. His brother chose the cornet, continued to grade 8 and has just graduated in music from Southampton. Each year there would be a grand concert, in the company of professional musicians, where all these little people played their hearts out. Many came from very disadvantaged backgrounds where music would have played no part, but the glee on their faces as they blew, scraped and banged was a joy to behold. It has to be said that the enjoyment probably exceeded the musicality, but no one worried because the experience was so beneficial. It was an amazing gift from Henley musicians, which few areas would be able to emulate. It set all those youngsters on a path of love of music and gave them confidence—obviously sometimes misplaced, of course—that they could play an instrument. I think violins are particularly prone to excruciating amateurism.

Not so long ago, all schools sang, particularly hymns in morning worship, but this has long disappeared. Singing requires only a piano, and not even that if there is a voice to start a tune. Children love to sing; how sad it is if they do not have the opportunity. What are the Government doing to encourage all schools to sing?

How valuable music is for disabled or disadvantaged pupils. There was a girl at my school who was never going to pass any exams, but when she sat down at the piano we could only marvel and enjoy. She was a true prodigy, who earned her place in our friendship because of her extraordinary talent.

What about music for blind and partially sighted students? Can the Minister say what support there is for braille or large-print music? I gather there are problems with this. For those who are missing sight, their hearing is often enhanced, and music can play a seminal part in their education. We think of amazing singers such as Andrea Bocelli, who became completely blind at 12 after a football accident, but whose wonderful tenor voice has enchanted audiences around the world. He played the piano and multiple instruments before abandoning a career in the law to pursue his talent. What a very wise decision.

Music has the capacity to evoke memories and give confidence to learners who struggle with class lessons. It should play a key role in all schools. Penny whistles, drums and recorders are not so expensive and, once acquired, can be passed down to succeeding generations, so some sorts of instruments could be within budget and encouraged. Many schools will still have pianos, or, if not, a friendly local church will have an organ, which a teacher with some keyboard skills could play. Surely most schools will have a teacher who has had piano lessons at some stage—or is that too a thing of the past? I speak as someone who was lured into being a reluctant organist at RAF chapels when my daughters announced that, “Mum plays hymns”.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Boateng, for initiating this debate. I hope against hope that all children, particularly those who have no music at home, will be able to benefit from music at school and, who knows, go on to delight us all with their talents.

Education: Advanced British Standard

Baroness Garden of Frognal Excerpts

Tuesday 17th October 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

As I said in my Answer, there will need to be extensive consultation, but we hope to work closely with the Scottish Parliament on this.

[Baroness Garden of Frognal (LD)]

My Lords, A-levels and T-levels should never be the only options for 16 year-olds. There are many highly talented, creative and practical students with work-based skills which are essential for the economy. Can the Minister reassure us that BTEC vocational qualifications will continue to be available to ensure that these students get their work accredited?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I am afraid that I cannot reassure the noble Baroness of that. She will be aware that we have carried out extensive reform of our qualifications and will know that, as of August 2022, we had removed 5,500 qualifications with low or no enrolments. However, we still have the most complicated and duplicative landscape of qualifications in this area —at least 7,000 available qualifications—which we will address through our reform programme.

Schools: Music, Art, Craft and Dance

Baroness Garden of Frognal Excerpts

Monday 16th October 2023 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Baroness Garden of Frognal]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what plans they have (1) to revitalise music, art, craft and dance, in state schools, and (2) to recruit teachers of these subjects.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Education (Baroness Barran) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government remain committed to pupils receiving a high-quality cultural education, including in music, art and design and dance. We are investing around £115 million in music and arts up to 2025, in addition to core school budgets. There are over 468,000 full-time equivalent teachers in state-funded schools in England, the highest since the school workforce census began. We are offering £10,000 tax-free initial teacher training bursaries for art and design and music from 2024-25.

[Baroness Garden of Frognal (LD)]

I thank the Minister for that very positive reply. However, one of the very many damaging offshoots of the EBacc and Progress 8 has been to degrade—indeed, in some cases to eliminate —music, dance, art and crafts from state school curricula, but every young person deserves the opportunity to experience and enjoy them. What is more, the arts are major contributors to the nation’s economy. The Minister has mentioned funding; how are the Government funding music hubs? How specifically do the Government intend to recruit teachers for these life-enhancing subjects?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

To put the noble Baroness’s concerns in perspective, I point out that if one takes into account both GCSEs and technical awards, which I know she values, just over half of students—52%—take either a GCSE or technical award. We are funding the music hubs with £79 million per annum for delivery but there is an additional £25 million fund for the purchase of musical instruments. In my Answer I gave an indication of the bursaries we will be providing to encourage recruitment.

Lifelong Learning (Higher Education Fee Limits) Bill

Baroness Garden of Frognal Excerpts

3rd reading
Tuesday 12th September 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Twycross (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for her constructive engagement on this Bill and for briefing Members at an early stage, along with the noble Lord, Lord Evans of Rainow, and the right honourable Member for Harlow. I also thank the Bill team. Labour supports the Bill’s aim; we support the idea that people can access funding to undertake the learning they need throughout their career. With people undertaking portfolio careers and with continual changes in technology and society, it is no longer the case that what you learn through a traditional three-year degree course is all that you will need in your work for the next 45 years or so.

We had a number of interesting, if concise, debates as the Bill passed its various stages. The Bill is quite limited in scope and Labour still believes that there could have been scope for setting out a more formal review process on a number of its aspects. This would, not least, have helped to safeguard against unintended consequences, whether around distance and flexible learning or employers making a proper contribution to staff development.

There are a number of potential negative impacts on people who are less able to move to study or who are less able to study full-time because of caring responsibilities. From what the noble Baroness said, we hope and believe that the Government intend to monitor and review the lifelong loan entitlement as it is established and rolled out, to make sure that its promise and potential are fulfilled, and especially to ensure that every person in England can have their own promise and potential fulfilled.

I thank the team in the Labour group office, particularly Clare Scally, as well as my Front-Bench colleagues and mentors—my noble friends Lady Wilcox and Lady Thornton. Their patience and kindness in imparting their own lifelong learning and talking me, a relatively new member of the Labour Front-Bench team, through the process of the passage of the Bill has been hugely appreciated.

[Baroness Garden of Frognal (LD)]

My Lords, I apologise profusely to the House for arriving after the Minister started speaking; business moved much more quickly than I expected.

From these Benches, I thank the Minister and the Bill team very much for all their work on the Bill. We remain concerned about how many adults will wish to take on debt in order to improve their learning, and we look forward to hearing updates from the Minister about how many people have done so. From these Benches, we feel that grants would be a much more effective way of persuading adults to learn. But, of course, we are all totally in favour of lifelong learning, and we wish the Bill well.

[Baroness Wolf of Dulwich (CB)]

My Lords, as many of you will know, the number 1 recommendation of the Augar review of post-18 education and funding was for this sort of reform. As someone who was a member of that review and who has spent a considerable part of the last three and a half years on secondment to government to work on the Augar review proposals, among other things, I take this opportunity to thank everyone involved.

I have been jinxed: I have not managed to contribute to any of the fine and informative debates that have taken place on this. They have highlighted some of the challenges that lie ahead. I am enormously encouraged by the cross-party support for the principle of a funding system that genuinely takes us forward into not just the 21st century but a future where post-compulsory lifelong learning is the rule, not the exception. We now have an opportunity to build on this.

I thank everyone involved in the drafting and passing of the Bill—although we have not quite passed it yet. I particularly put on record my appreciation of the work put in by a large number of officials who have worked enormously hard on this—on teasing out the policy implications and on minimising the amount that had to be put into primary legislation. I thank them and the Minister for her support. It is a little miraculous that we have moved from a major recommendation in 2019 to putting this reform on its way to implementation in 2023. So, on behalf of the Augar review team—and, I think, all the future students of this country—I thank everyone involved in this reform.

Life Skills and Citizenship

Baroness Garden of Frognal Excerpts

Thursday 7th September 2023 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Baroness Garden of Frognal]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what plans they have to ensure that life skills and citizenship are taught in primary and secondary schools.

[Baroness Garden of Frognal (LD)]

My Lords, I am very pleased to have the opportunity to introduce this debate. I thank all who are taking part and apologise that they have only two minutes to speak. I also bring apologies from the noble Lord, Lord Blunkett, that he is unavoidably unable to be with us on a topic where he has great expertise.

It is widely recognised that personal and social development are key aims of education at all levels. However, there are only minimal requirements on schools and funding pressures mean that these areas do not get the priority they deserve. DfE advice for education providers is that they should include

“other non-qualification activity to develop students’ character, broader skills, attitudes and confidence, and support progression”.

This might include their ability to travel independently, to cook and eat healthily, to stay safe and to understand their all-important personal finances. This should be at the heart of education. Employers tend not to prioritise academic qualifications. They look for resilience, problem-solving, contributions to the community—life skills that impact on young people, our communities and our country.

I am currently on a committee chaired by the noble Lord, Lord Johnson, to look at education for 11 to 16 year-olds. As we take evidence, it is becoming increasingly clear that our current school priorities are not fit for purpose, whatever the Schools Minister, Nick Gibb, may think. The EBacc and other programmes are directed to academic achievements, with GCSE, A-level and university being the main drivers. Young people whose interests and talents lie in more practical directions are largely overlooked, their motivation declining with every year when “Hamlet” and calculus are deemed more important than engineering, catering, music, the arts—indeed, all forms of creativity. Preparation for adult life is given minimal attention.

There are some brilliant citizenship programmes where young people learn the key skills of working with others, communication and self-management. They are taught about democracy; the importance of voting; human, moral, legal and political rights and duties; tolerance and diversity; and the invaluable contributions that can be made by volunteers. They are advised of financial literacy to enable them to manage their future incomes; of course, this is particularly important in these times of hardship and so much more relevant than algebra. When did noble Lords last use quadratic equations? They were fun while they lasted—I thoroughly enjoyed them—but by golly were they transient. Pupils are pointed to sex and health education although citizenship is not the same as PSHE, important as that is. They learn about ways in which they can play their part in the community, such as caring for others, old and young, disabled or sick, who may need help in everyday life, and the satisfaction that comes from activities that earn them money but help the world to be a better place.

As chair of the cadet health check team, I am constantly encouraged by the achievements and life skills of cadets, helped immeasurably by the committed adult volunteers who change young lives. The coalition Government boosted the availability of cadets in state schools with the cadet expansion programme. The University of Northampton recently produced a report showing the immense value of cadet training to individuals and the community. Of course, the independent sector has long seen the immeasurable value of cadets and other uniformed youth organisations, which breed leadership skills. It is to the credit of the Government that they are continuing their support, particularly for disadvantaged young people in state schools to have opportunities to discover the immense variety of activities that will enhance their lives. They could lead to careers in the military but that is not the purpose of the cadets, whose main purpose is to challenge the young to achieve more than they thought possible and to face risks in controlled environments and under supervision. The glee and satisfaction on the faces of cadets who have faced fearsome challenges successfully is always wonderful to behold. The boost it gives to self-confidence and self-respect is invaluable.

At my remote girls’ school, there was no mention of life skills or citizenship. I still remember the only lecture that touched on our futures, which was when a rather superior gentleman gazed at us and said, “Well, girls, most of you will get married so you won’t need to bother with a career. A few will go to university so you have another three years to think about the future. For the rest of you, you could be a teacher, a secretary or a nurse”—end of careers lecture. How he spun that out for an hour, I still cannot remember, but what a bewildering choice for us all.

When I graduated from Oxford, happily engaged to a wonderful RAF pilot, I was again offered three options: teacher, secretary or unemployable. In time, I was grateful to her for being so brutally realistic. We moved 24 times in 30 years, never had much money, and my husband’s frequent promotions always seemed to carry additional expensive social responsibilities. I did indeed drift into teaching and discovered the hard way that teaching skills are very different from academic ones. None of my pupils seemed interested in medieval French, which was a main contributor to my degree. I also found work as a clerical officer, a filing clerk and a copy typist—never, alas, as a secretary. There were also times when I was indeed unemployable: when having small children, when my husband’s postings called for a full-time wife and when I could not persuade anybody to employ me. It is difficult to be a good citizen when you feel that you are no use to anyone.

When I was a “compulsory wife”, I was aware that we had no guidance or training to help in our roles, which were apparently essential to our husbands’ success. I proposed training to include public speaking, chairing committees and comforting the bereaved. I was particularly concerned with welfare counselling in the hands of the untrained, as I had witnessed the harm that well-meaning but ignorant wives could do. There were other skills that we were just expected to have. Although there are no longer compulsory partners, I understand that this programme still exists at the Staff College for partners of senior military people. There was a touching male assumption that women just had relevant skills but, of course, that was always flawed. We all need help with life skills.

When we appeared settled in London, I found work with City & Guilds which was looking for graduates with teaching experience—heigh-ho, I covered two of those—and stayed with it for 20 years working on vocational qualifications, so full of life skills and good citizenship. Why do the Government not fully appreciate vocational or indeed technical or craft skills?

Like many women of my generation and older who were denied careers, I turned to volunteering with the CAB and SSAFA, welfare counselling and even as a reluctant organist in RAF chapels. My desire to contribute came more from my family than my education. My mother, who had a first-class degree from Cambridge, was denied graduation—it was not until 1948 that Cambridge allowed its women students to graduate—and she had to retire from the Civil Service as soon as she married, but she did constant good work with the church, marriage guidance and tutoring.

Of course, as I now know, we can all be good citizens in myriad ways and life skills accrue with experience. The importance of these subjects at primary school is vital, particularly for children who find academic school subjects taxing. If you are constantly near the bottom of the class, how important it is to learn the life skills of tolerance, kindness, curiosity, listening, hearing and speaking. Oracy is often overlooked in the curriculum, but being able to express oneself plays a key part in success in life.

For children whose home lives are limiting, discouraging or even dangerous, the importance of school to enable them to cope and thrive is crucial. Children who have caring responsibilities, and there are more of them than we appreciate, are forced to learn life skills at too early an age. The school curriculum should be wide enough to encourage and support them.

We need a long, hard look at our education system. I hope our committee will have some pointers to a more relevant and productive time at school. All children have interests and skills which could be channelled into fulfilling lives. None should feel that the only way to be noticed or make a difference is to end up on the streets in gangs, empowered only by damage and destruction. We must move away from the academic snobbery which has limited employability and fulfilment for so many. We need engineers, builders, retailers, plumbers, hairdressers and artists.

Our creative industries are among the most productive in the country, yet music, drama and art have disappeared from many state schools. We hear that music hubs are to be reduced by 63%. Hubs have spent years establishing relationships and partnerships with schools and music establishments; there is a great danger that the restructure will leave many young musicians and would-be musicians bereft of music education.

It would revolutionise school for so many young people if their future needs, interests and talents were recognised. It would benefit the community and the country too if schools prioritised turning out good citizens—children who feel confident that they have the skills and knowledge to be useful. Will the Minister say what measures the Government are taking to ensure that life skills and citizenship are taught in all primary and secondary schools by qualified and committed teachers? The next generation deserves nothing less. I beg to move.

Lifelong Learning (Higher Education Fee Limits) Bill

Baroness Garden of Frognal Excerpts

Report stage
Tuesday 5th September 2023 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Garden of Frognal]

1: Clause 1, page 2, line 10, at end insert—
“(1A) For the purposes of this Schedule, one credit corresponds to 10 notional learning hours.”Member's explanatory statement
This amendment puts the number of hours that constitute a credit on the face of the Bill.

[Baroness Garden of Frognal (LD)]

Amendment 1 proposes the widely accepted requirement that the learning hours associated with credit must be consistent with sector-wide standards. It would be beneficial to have 10 hours written in the Bill in order to cement its definition, because that would mean that no new definition could be introduced or imposed at a later date for the purposes of setting fee limits.

We continue to express concern that the lack of detail in the Bill could mean that in the future the policy could significantly change from the intentions of the current Government, and there is little constraint against decisions made by the Secretary of State—often a “here today, gone tomorrow” Minister—but I recognise that on Report we are unlikely to be able to change the powers of the Secretary of State.

Amendment 2 proposes the insertion of a new clause to review the provisions in the Act. Businesses are reporting having difficulty recruiting employees with the relevant skills. In August 2022, the Federation of Small Businesses found that 80% of small firms faced difficulties recruiting applicants with suitable skills in the previous 12 months. The Recruitment and Employment Confederation estimates that if labour shortages are not addressed, the UK economy will be £39 billion worse off each year from 2024.

Despite the rising population, many employers are facing skills gaps. Some 28,300 London employers report that not all their employees have the right skills for the job. Almost a quarter—23%—of all vacancies in London are due to a lack of applicants with the right skills, while almost half of firms—42%—are not confident that they will be able to recruit people with the higher-level skills their organisation needs over the next five years. It is possible that many of the migrants waiting to be processed will have the skills that the country urgently needs, so when will the Home Office speed up the processing so that we can see if that is the case?

We are not convinced that the introduction of the lifelong loan entitlement will help to plug the gaps. The Liberal Democrats have called for grants, rather than loans, to encourage adult reskilling, concerned that many adults will be reluctant to take on debt for their further training. Will the LLE allow people to upskill effectively? Will they want to take out loans to upskill? It will be important for the Government to review the impact of the provisions of the Bill to assess whether these measures alleviate the skills shortages.

I am not my party’s expert on sharia finance, but I am aware of the Islamic belief that benefiting from lending money by charging interest or repaying more than the initial amount borrowed—riba—is forbidden. The investments made by loan companies, which might be in industries such as gambling or alcohol, are also considered problematic. For these reasons, Muslim students are deterred from taking out student loans from the Student Loans Company to cover the tuition fees and living costs associated with higher education. Research has shown this can act as a barrier to higher education for Muslims or cause financial hardship for those who do choose to study at university.

The UK Government first proposed a student finance product consistent with Muslim beliefs about interest-bearing loans in 2013. The Higher Education Research Act 2017 allows the Government to introduce such a product, but it has yet to do so. The issue has been raised in Parliament a number of times, with the delay described as shameful by my noble friend Lord Sharkey, who is indeed an expert on sharia finance.

In March 2023, in their response to the consultation on the lifelong loan entitlement, the Government said that a sharia-compliant alternative student finance product would not be available as part of the launch of the LLE in England in 2025. In July 2023, the Government said that they remain committed to delivering alternative student finance as soon as possible after 2025. Can the Minister say why the Government have yet to do this? It would be useful to understand their thinking behind the delays and whether they could explain how the introduction of the LLE would impact those who require sharia-compliant loans.

The other part of the amendment calls for a review before the end of 2026, and preferably earlier. I have also added my name to Amendment 4, which Labour will introduce. I look forward to the Minister’s response, and I beg to move.

[Baroness Wilcox of Newport (Lab)]

My Lords, I rise to speak to Amendment 4, which would require the Secretary of State to publish a review of the lifelong loan entitlement before bringing in further regulations on fee limits. I welcome the Minister's comments in Committee, and I fully understand her feedback about what information will accompany further regulations as these changes are rolled out.

We have brought this amendment back to further raise the point about ensuring that students, the sector and Parliament are given clear information on the details of the LLE as soon as possible. Throughout the passage of this Bill, we have raised concerns, often after input from those in the higher education sector, that so little about the LLE in terms of course provision, maintenance, credits, transfers, and further rollout of modular study at other levels is confirmed in any meaningful detail.

I am none the less grateful that, following Committee, the Minister outlined further details of the LLE that relate to this Bill in a letter. However, as we know, this huge shift in higher education policy goes further than fee limits. We all want this change to work, but for that to happen the sector will need much more clarity than has been provided through this very narrow Bill.

The accounting officer assessment for the LLE states:

“The main feasibility risk of LLE is meeting the 2025 delivery timescale”.


Is the Minister still confident that the department will be able to deliver on time, particularly in the light of current pressures arising from the major emergency that the department is currently dealing with in school buildings across the UK?

My next question follows on naturally: what is in place if this timescale turns out to be unworkable? There are a great many sector stakeholders—as well as the students themselves, of course—who will need clearly communicated timelines. Amendment 1 from the noble Baroness, Lady Garden, puts in the Bill the number of hours that constitute a credit. We understand why she tabled that amendment: it is important that the sector is given clarity and control over the definition of working hours and that it is consistent with the QAA’s higher education credit framework. As she noted, her concern is about the lack of detail. This is one of many areas in which the higher and further education sectors still have questions about how a credit will be defined.

The concept of a credit in education terms will also be completely alien to the general public, and there is a risk that employers simply do not understand its value. The Government need to think about how this can be communicated. We do not believe that putting a number in the Bill at this point would be beneficial. However, we would like a commitment from the Government that they will not seek to amend the value of a credit and will be led by the sector’s understanding of it.

On Amendment 2, I am glad that the Minister has outlined the Government’s plans to ensure sharia-compliant loans in writing; we look forward to receiving further engagement on this issue as the LLE progresses. But, as the noble Baroness, Lady Garden, pointed out, there is a distinct problem with skills gaps—a lack of applicants with the right skills. The economy cannot move forward appropriately with skills shortages.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Education (Baroness Barran) (Con)]

My Lords, ahead of speaking to the amendments tabled, I thank all noble Lords across the Chamber for their contributions and the support they have expressed, both for this Bill and for the wider programme to transform opportunities to build qualifications over one’s lifetime. We heard from the noble Baronesses, Lady Garden and Lady Wilcox, about the importance of filling skills gaps so that the economy can grow. I thank both my noble friend Lord Willetts and the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley of Knighton, for their support and acknowledgement that the Bill will open new opportunities for learners.

Amendment 1, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Garden of Frognal, would define a credit as equivalent to “10 notional learning hours” in the Bill. The Government believe that it is crucial that the definitions of credits in the fee limit calculations align to standard practice in the sector—a point the noble Baroness, Lady Wilcox, made. The Government plan to set out this detail in regulations, rather than in primary legislation. The power to do so is provided for in new paragraph 1B of Schedule 2 to the Higher Education and Research Act 2017, introduced through Clause 1 of this Bill. Specifying learning hours in secondary rather than primary legislation means that providers that might choose to use a different number of learning hours per credit will simply have those courses treated as non-credit-bearing for fee limit purposes. If we took the approach of this amendment, those same providers could instead be considered in breach of the fee limit rules as a whole, with all the regulatory consequences that might bring. I am sure that is not what the noble Baroness intends with her amendment.

To be clear, as I think the noble Baroness’s amendment seeks to do, the Government do not intend to change the number of learning hours in a credit unless standards in the sector change. Learning hours are, and should continue to be, based on sector-led standards. Regulations on learning hours will follow the affirmative resolution procedure, so Parliament will get the opportunity to debate and formally approve any changes to those regulations.

Amendment 2 and Amendment 4, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Twycross, and the noble Lord, Lord Watson of Invergowrie, would require the Secretary of State to publish a review of the impact of the future Act on the progress of the rollout of the lifelong loan entitlement. Amendment 4 sets out that such a review must be published ahead of regulations being laid, and Amendment 2 would require the review to be presented to Parliament before the end of 2026. I thank my noble friend Lord Willetts for being the very eloquent messenger of the noble Baroness, Lady Wolf. We absolutely agree with her point and that made by the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley. Amendment 2 specifies that the review should include the impact of the credit-based method on sharia-compliant loans and skills gaps.

I thank your Lordships for these amendments. The Government agree with the sentiment behind them, if such sentiment seeks the department’s commitment to monitoring the impact of these measures on the transformation of student finance under the lifelong loan entitlement. As your Lordships will be aware, the Government published an impact assessment alongside the Bill upon its introduction in the other place in February this year. Subsequently, the department published an updated and more extensive impact assessment of the lifelong loan entitlement, more broadly, alongside the publication of the consultation response in March. As was committed to in the impact assessment published in March, and in accordance with the Better Regulation Framework, a more detailed assessment of impacts will be published at the point when the Government lay the necessary secondary legislation to implement the lifelong loan entitlement fully. Therefore, the Government already intend to publish an updated impact assessment covering all aspects of the LLE, including the measures in the Bill, when regulations are laid.

In addition, parliamentary accountability mechanisms are already in place to review Acts of Parliament and the impact that they have on policy, including post-legislative scrutiny in particular, but not exclusively. There will be continued scrutiny of the LLE and the impact of these measures in both this place and the other place, including the role of the Education Select Committee in scrutinising the work of the department.

I will just rest for a moment on the point about post-legislative scrutiny, which I understand the noble Baronesses raised at the briefing yesterday. The noble Baroness, Lady Wilcox, will be aware that under the current government guidance and as proposed in 2008, between three to five years after an Act is passed it should be reviewed by the government department and Parliament. I can assure the noble Baroness that the Government will seek to work together with the relevant Select Committee in line with that guidance. However, while we recognise the importance of reviewing the implementation, it should be not just of this Act but of the reform of the system—and again, I can commit that the Government would like to see that review happen.

On the specific details within the amendments themselves, the timing requirement in Amendment 4 would require a review of the impact of the Bill on the rollout of the LLE prior to regulations being laid. I want to be clear here that any impact assessment which is conducted ahead of laying regulations would not be any different to the impact assessment currently available for the Bill and the consultation process. The next point at which impacts can be assessed is when the regulations are laid and, as stated, the Government are committed to publishing an impact assessment at that time.

Amendment 2 relates to the impact of the credit-based method on sharia-compliant loans and skills gaps. First, it is important to note that fee limits are set on courses, not on students. Therefore, the credit-based method—like the current fee limit system—will not depend on any characteristics of individual students. All students on a course will have their fees determined in line with the same fee limit rules, regardless of whether they use their LLE, self-fund, or use alternative loan arrangements.

I take this opportunity to assure your Lordships that the Government remain committed to delivering an alternative student finance product compatible with Islamic finance principles. The noble Baroness, Lady Garden, questioned why it was taking so long. I will not rehearse all the arguments, but I think she will remember that we touched on this in Committee, and it really is linked to the complexity of implementation. Every element that changes within the student finance systems needs to be mirrored for the alternative finance product, so it is a more complicated process and is contingent, and it has to follow the building of the systems which will allow us to deliver the new approach.

The noble Baroness, Lady Wilcox, questioned our commitment to being able to deliver by 2025. I remind the House of the measures that we set out in the letter that I sent your Lordships on this point following Grand Committee. I am pleased to confirm that in August, the Student Loans Company commenced delivery planning for alternative student finance, and it is supported on this phase of work by experts in Islamic finance, the Islamic Finance Council UK. I continue to meet on a quarterly basis with the Student Loans Company, the Islamic Finance Council UK, the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, Stephen Timms MP and representatives from the Islamic community to discuss the steps the Government are taking to deliver alternative student finance as swiftly as possible. Because of the delays there have been, we need to be as transparent as possible to make sure that we build or rebuild trust with the community that we really will deliver on this. I will provide a further update on alternative student finance later this year.

On skills gaps, in response to the LLE consultation, the Government made it clear that they will be taking a phased approach to modular funding, as the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, reminded the House, focusing on higher technical courses which have the clearest employer value. It is important to note that fee limits are not a means to address skills gaps; they are to ensure that students have affordable access to higher education provision provided by those higher education providers who receive government funding to support course delivery.

Finally, it is worth noting that the LLE policy is much wider than the provisions of the Bill, and as such, the reviews sought through these amendments would focus narrowly on fee limits and not on the impact of the LLE as a whole.

For these reasons, while the department understands the sentiment behind these amendments, they would either have unintended consequences or would be unnecessary, as there will already be mechanisms in place to provide such review. Therefore, the Government cannot accept these amendments and I hope that your Lordships will withdraw or not move them.

[Baroness Garden of Frognal (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for her response and her reassurance, and I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Wilcox, and the noble Lords, Lord Willetts and Lord Berkeley, for their comments on this short debate.

Of course, we are all committed to encouraging lifelong learning—it is essential for the well-being of the country and of individuals—and we all want to make sure that it is encouraged. As I say, we continue to express concern that adults may not prepared to take on loans for this but, obviously, only time will tell. I thank the Minister for her remarks about sharia finance, because it is a concern that Muslim students are deterred from entering higher education because they cannot get the means to do so. With that, I thank all your Lordships and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 1 withdrawn.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Thornton (Lab)]

My Lords, I support the amendment, to which my name is attached, but I also echo my noble friend’s remarks on this matter. As I mentioned to the Minister, the rollout will be very important, and the three to five-year assessment of whether the legislation has worked will not serve, because it will be a moving feast. Indeed, I thank the Open University for writing to us to draw our attention to the accounting officer’s assessment, which my noble friend mentioned, which highlights concerns within the department that the rollout might be a problem.

There are two things here, really. First, I seek some clarity on how this will be promoted. This partly echoes the remarks made by the noble Lord, Lord Willetts, in Committee, which we rather liked; they were about trust and how this will be sold to people as something that we would want them to take up in the long term. The second point is about addressing the concerns that have been expressed within the department by the accounting officer.

[Baroness Garden of Frognal (LD)]

My Lords, we have here a fairly formidable list of things, all of them important. I want to focus on subsection (2)(j) in the new clause proposed by Amendment 3, which concerns:

“the financial sustainability of the tertiary education sector”.

We note that student fees have not gone up in all the years they have been there and that universities now face intense financial pressures. I note that, in Committee, the noble Lords, Lord Willetts and Lord Johnson, put forward a suggestion that student fees should rise with inflation; that has not gone further but I wonder whether the Minister could give some succour to university vice-chancellors, who are desperately worried about how on earth they can balance their books as costs go up but income does not.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

My Lords, I now turn to Amendment 3, tabled by the noble Baronesses, Lady Twycross, Lady Thornton and Lady Wilcox of Newport, and the noble Lord, Lord Blunkett. This amendment would require the Secretary of State to publish an annual review of the operation of the provisions of this Act and specifies several areas that the review must cover, including learner uptake, access to higher education and financial sustainability in tertiary education more broadly.

As mentioned in relation to Amendments 2 and 4, the Government published an impact assessment upon the introduction of this Bill in February and an extensive impact assessment of the lifelong loan entitlement more broadly in March. The Government intend to publish an updated impact assessment covering all aspects of the LLE, including the measures in this Bill, when regulations are laid.

There will be continued scrutiny of the Bill and the LLE via existing parliamentary accountability mechanisms, for example post-legislative scrutiny and the Education Select Committee. In addition, there are already systems by which the areas mentioned in this amendment are monitored. I will take each area in turn to provide reassurances as to the existing work being undertaken in these areas and the mechanisms in place for review.

In relation to the point from the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, about three to five years, I was speaking specifically about post-legislative scrutiny. It is in the Cabinet Office guidance from 2008—a period that I imagine the noble Baroness might support. Obviously, as I have just listed, there are a number of other mechanisms for scrutiny.

The amendment lists a number of areas relating to uptake. I want to take this opportunity to refer noble Lords to the publications produced by the Higher Education Statistics Agency, which will continue to include data on learner uptake and enrolments. For example, the Higher Education Statistics Agency website allows anyone to view information about higher education student enrolments broken down by year, level of study, higher education provider, subject, mode of study and more. High-level national results are also published in its annual statistical bulletin.

Regarding uptake of modular and part-time study, the Government expect to see a shift in how, what and when people study as the LLE provides support for alternatives to full-time study. For example, Universities UK polling in 2020 on modular study indicated that 82% of prospective students polled who were either unemployed, at risk of unemployment or looking to learn a new skill would be keen to study individual modules of a university degree.

Turning to access, tackling inequality in higher education is a central part of the Office for Students’ mission. The OfS shares information through its access and participation data dashboard, which allows it and the public, alongside registered universities and colleges, to identify gaps between groups. The OfS also maintains an equality of opportunity risk register, which identifies key sector-level risks to equality of opportunity in higher education and highlights the student groups that are most affected by each one.

The Government recognise the importance of supporting access, which is why maintenance loans will be available for all eligible courses and modules that require in-person attendance under the LLE, as will targeted support grants such as the disabled students’ allowance and the childcare grant. The impact assessment published alongside this Bill notes that learners who will particularly benefit from the introduction of fee limits for short courses and modules are more likely to be older, female, from ethnic minority backgrounds or from lower socioeconomic groups.

Lifelong Learning (Higher Education Fee Limits) Bill

Baroness Garden of Frognal Excerpts

Monday 10th July 2023 Grand Committee

[Baroness Twycross (Lab)]

My Lords, I shall speak to Amendment 1 in my name and the names of my noble friends Lady Thornton and Lady Wilcox and the noble Baroness, Lady Garden of Frognal, and to Amendment 4 in my name and those of my noble friends Lady Thornton and Lady Wilcox.

As Labour made clear at Second Reading, we support the intention of the Bill. It is no longer the case that someone’s career can be predictable from the time they leave school, college or university. It is unlikely that someone starting their career will not have further educational needs during their lifetime and it is right that that is reflected in the funding available. However, it is Labour’s view that this is a good Bill that could be even better. As I said at Second Reading, it is a short Bill, and arguably too short. On the surface it does what it says on the tin, but with a bit more detail it would be more likely to succeed in the lifetime guarantee offers and a lifetime entitlement that it would bring about.

The further and higher education sectors also support the Bill. However, having such a limited Bill with little concrete information in it is of concern to those in higher education. We think that further consultation should therefore be built in to safeguard the success of the legislation. As the Open University said in its commentary, the Bill could be transformative, but the OU makes clear that its detailed design will be key to determining how it works in practice and whether it will be able to achieve the Government’s ambitions to deliver a fundamental and seismic shift towards flexible lifelong learning.

Amendment 1 would insert sectoral consultation into the decision about whether the fee limit for a course should be fixed or module based. Currently the Secretary of State has huge scope to decide that. It is likely that not all courses would lend themselves to being module based. We think that the extent to which a course is suited to being module based is likely to be something that the sector would be well-placed to have a view on.

Amendment 4 would include a similar requirement with credit-differentiated activity—for example, in relation to placements. The current wording gives the Secretary of State huge scope to decide the worth of placements in terms of credits. The amendment would insert a requirement for the Secretary of State to consult higher education and placement providers.

Without wanting to put words in the Minister’s mouth, I am confident that she may say that it is self-evident that the Secretary of State would consult on these matters. However, if that is the case, why not simply put the requirement to consult into legislation? I hope that the Minister will see the common sense in doing so and I look forward to her response on this matter.

[Baroness Garden of Frognal (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for her willingness to discuss issues in the Bill with all interested noble Lords. I have added my name to Amendment 1, for all the reasons set out by the noble Baroness, Lady Twycross. For these provisions to succeed, close co-operation and consultation with higher education and indeed other awarding organisations are crucial.

This is a small Bill with considerable limits. We had hoped to table amendments to ensure that careers information, advice and guidance were available to any of those wishing to take advantage of the provisions of the Bill, but we were told that that was out of scope. I fear that other of our concerns may also turn out to be categorised in that way.

There are a great many unknowns in the Bill. It is a matter of great concern that the number of adults over 21 accessing higher-level skills has fallen dramatically over a number of years. One reason is the lack of maintenance support—also, I fear, out of scope. The majority of part-time students do not have access to maintenance support and that can be a serious disincentive for them, so can the Minister say whether any thought has been given to maintenance loans—or, better still, grants—to enable the provisions of the Bill to succeed? I guess that this, again, will be out of scope.

As the Minister is aware, the Liberal Democrats are not convinced that large cohorts of adult learners will be keen to take on debt, and the lifelong learning entitlement is indeed a debt. We propose a skills wallet, putting money into learners’ pockets to enhance their skills learning and competence at three stages of their careers. We argue that that money would be rapidly recouped by the enhanced earning capacity of those who took advantage of it. We know that many adults are loath to take on additional debt, particularly in these times of economic difficulties. We will support any amendments calling for reviews to see how successful the offer of loans and debt is to adults.

I am not sure whether the Minister answered those concerns at Second Reading but obviously now we have to concentrate on the amendments tabled, which largely centre on clarification of what is or is not included in the Bill. We can only hope that the Bill has the desired effect. The country is woefully short of people with the skills that the economy needs and, if more adults can be encouraged to acquire those skills, we shall all benefit. However, it is a very little Bill.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Education (Baroness Barran) (Con)]

My Lords, I shall speak to Amendment 1, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Twycross, also in the names of the noble Baronesses, Lady Garden of Frognal, Lady Wilcox of Newport and Lady Thornton, and Amendment 4, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Twycross, and in the names of the noble Baronesses, Lady Wilcox of Newport and Lady Thornton, which would require the Government to consult relevant stakeholders and others before, first, setting out which method should be used to calculate fee limits and, secondly, determining the nature and extent of credit-differentiated activity and the number of credits associated with it.

The Government intend for all courses offered under the lifelong loan entitlement, the LLE, to use the new credit-based method for calculating fee limits in order to create a consistent and unified fee limit system. That policy has been designed in consultation with relevant higher education sector stakeholders. I agree with the noble Baroness opposite that it is extremely important to take account of their views. That is exactly what the Government have done in designing this policy.

The Government intend to retain the ability to set fee limits using the current yearly system, as well as the new credit-based system, but would use this ability only by exception. The Government do not currently anticipate any courses to use the fixed method from 2025 and are confident that all courses can use the credit-based method. The Government concluded their consultation on the LLE on 6 May last year. The consultation included a question on whether any courses should continue to be funded per academic year under the LLE rather than according to the number of credits.

Through the consultation, the Government understand that some courses, such as postgraduate certificates in education or nursing degrees, may not be suited to having fee limits set using provider-assigned credit values. This is due to variations in how different providers assign credits to these courses, which could lead to variable fee limit outcomes. For those courses, the intention is to set fee limits using a consistent rate of 120 credits per year for full-time courses, with other values for other intensities. That will enable those courses to use the new credit-based method while retaining parity with the current per-year system.

In relation to credit-differentiated activity, the Government want to ensure that periods of sandwich placement and study abroad continue to be subject to lower fee limits. In the current system, these lower limits are applied to full academic years, which makes them incompatible with the per-credit system. To enable those lower limits within the credit-based method, the Bill introduces the term “credit-differentiated activity”. This will mean that substantial periods of sandwich placement and study abroad can have their lower fee limits applied accurately even when they do not conform to full academic years. Regulations will set out details on how this system will work, including a mechanism to enable credit-differentiated activities to work for non-credit-bearing placements.

I can also announce that, in the autumn of this year, the Government will publish further detail of the fee limits regulations. This will give the sector and the public an opportunity to scrutinise the detail and plan accordingly for the introduction of the LLE in 2025, as well as ensuring that the Government can receive feedback on their proposals prior to the laying of regulations. This will include detail on the maximum and default credit values for different course types.

In conclusion, given that consultation has already taken place and that further engagements with the sector will take place as part of the pathway to the LLE’s delivery, the Government cannot support these amendments.

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Baroness Garden of Frognal]

2: Clause 1, page 2, line 10, at end insert—
“(1A) For the purposes of this Schedule, one credit corresponds to 10 notional learning hours.”Member's explanatory statement
This amendment puts the number of hours that constitute a credit on the face of the Bill.

[Baroness Garden of Frognal (LD)]

My Lords, I have also added my name to Amendment 5 in this group.

Currently, the definition of a credit is outlined in Ofqual’s conditions of registration, the Office for Students’ sector-recognised standards and the QAA’s higher education credit framework. It is outlined in the Bill’s Explanatory Notes but not on the face of the Bill. It is important to put it in the Bill to ensure that the Government do not amend the value of a credit without any proper scrutiny. Even though the current Minister committed to the affirmative resolution procedure, there is no ongoing commitment for future Governments. Evidence given to the Bill Committee also set out reasons why a definition should be in the Bill.

It is really important to communicate to a student what a credit means. In essence, a student wants to know a number of things: how much this is going to cost them; what they will have to expend in effort and energy to complete the module; and what they will get for that module and those credits from the institution that they choose to go to. Transparency around the relationship between credits and fees and between credits and module content, including what is expected within that, is very important. Would it not also help anyone whom we want to use the lifelong learning entitlement to understand what their fees translate to in practice?

For a similar reason, I have added my name to Amendment 5, which the noble Baroness, Lady Twycross, will address more fully. It is a probing amendment on credit structure. Other institutions have told us that they are on a 20-credit system and so increasing the structure to 30 credits would cause significant disruption, inhibit a quick rollout and be a great disincentive to many learners. There is the argument that short courses are valuable to employers and that putting in a higher credit minimum limits the potential for students’ choice in short courses.

This group has also acquired Amendment 6A in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Johnson. We certainly support it. Higher education institutions should be allowed to uprate in line with inflation and this measure should be in the Bill; there would be little incentive for them otherwise.

These are three useful amendments. I beg to move Amendment 2.

[Baroness Thornton (Lab)]

My Lords, I will speak to Amendment 5 in the name of my noble friend Lady Twycross, to which my noble friend Lady Wilcox and I, and the noble Baroness, Lady Garden, have added our names. It is a probing amendment intended to ensure that modules worth 20 credits or more are included within the lifelong learning entitlement.

We are concerned that there is a series of questions on this that need clarification. The briefing that we have all received from the Association of Colleges also expresses concern about how the credits system will work. It says in its briefing that this is a significant reform and that we need to ensure that credit requirements do not limit access to modular learning, as many providers teach 20-credit modules and a minimum requirement of 30 credits would require learners to bundle together at least two modules to meet the funding requirement.

This issue was discussed in Committee in the Commons, where a similar amendment was tabled to the one that I have put down here to probe this issue further. Since we put our amendment down the noble Lord, Lord Johnson of Marylebone, has tabled his Amendment 6A, which is of great interest. I want to see what the noble Lord has to say about it but, on the face of it, it is the kind of amendment that we would be interested in discussing as we move forward with the Bill.

--- Later in debate ---

I thank my noble friend for raising a valuable discussion on this topic. The Government absolutely agree with him that a sustainably funded higher education sector is vital to our national economy and to the prospects of the many thousands of people it educates every year. However, the Government do not believe that it is fair to students to increase tuition fees at this time. Therefore, I ask him not to press his amendment. For the reasons set out earlier, the Government cannot support the other amendments in this group.

[Baroness Garden of Frognal (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for her response. I am sorry that my arguments for putting the 10 notional hours in the Bill did not meet with her approval. Of course, secondary legislation can be amended much more readily than things that are in the Bill. I will have to read her answer on the credit structure as I was getting slightly confused about that—if Oxford would get only 20 credits, oh dear, what has happened to my old university? I will have to read that carefully and see where the argument was going.

On Amendment 6A in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Johnson, again, I am not quite sure why fees should not increase with inflation. I realise that, at the moment, nobody wants anything to increase at all because we are in a difficult time when money is scarce for a lot of people, but the noble Lord gave figures about how the disparity has grown. I speak from a party that did not want university fees at all—by golly, were we punished for that—but we costed it and worked out that an awful lot of students would not pay fees anyway. The cost of setting up the Student Loans Company and chasing down students all had to be put in the negative. It was a fully costed programme, but obviously it did not serve us well at all.

I hope the Minister will look again at the noble Lord’s amendment. One reads about the UEA getting into all these troubles and probably having to forego its creative writing course, which would be a lamentable outcome, given the incredible people who have come out of that course over the years. Anyway, I thank her for the reply. We shall consider everything she said, but I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment 2 withdrawn.