Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Debate between Baroness Grey-Thompson and Lord Markham

Committee stage
Friday 12th December 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Grey-Thompson (CB)]

My Lords, I will speak to Amendment 21, tabled in my name, from personal experience. The richness of the debate today shows that, even in your Lordships’ Chamber, we all have completely different experiences of how we access a GP practice.

I tabled this amendment partly from personal experience, trying to look at how we provide continuous care to a patient. As for my own experience, I am disabled, not sick, but I have had some very interesting experiences of interacting with doctors. Fairly recently, I was asked by a doctor how I caught spina bifida and had to explain to him that it was congenital. As for my husband’s experience of the healthcare system, he had a spinal cord injury in 1984 and, at a recent visit, was continually asked whether it was in 1884 that he had his accident—I know he looks good for his age, but not that good. This is not to be flippant, which I have been accused of before. It is actually to try to ensure that we have proper continuity of care for a person who wishes to end their life.

My amendment is also grounded in coercion detection and the limitations of any capacity assessment. When I tabled it, I was thinking that perhaps a GP could provide extra knowledge to contribute to the decision that was made. But then I heard of the experience of my noble friend Lady Falkner, which is absolutely appalling. It shows that there is far more work we need to do, not just on the National Health Service but on making sure we provide the right care. The noble Lord, Lord Deben, talked about the NHS we wish to have. Well, this might be a chance to think about the NHS we wish to have.

I take this opportunity to welcome my new noble friend Lady Gerada and the experience she brings to the Chamber. I have to say that it has left me slightly more confused. I have amendments on data recording, which we will be debating later. Her comments show that data recording and sharing is really important. The part I got a bit confused about was that, if there is a named clinician as part of that process, does that not ultimately feed in to the points that have been made today? I would welcome the chance to discuss that with her outside the Chamber.

Continuity of care is really important, and how it relates to improved patient outcomes. In 2012, 56.7% of patients had a preferred GP, but that is declining. There is a link between your preferred GP and being able to access that GP. The decline has happened regardless of baseline continuity, rural or urban location or level of deprivation. Providing a better experience to patients will make those final weeks and months better for them. The Royal College of General Practitioners published excellent work in 2021 on why the patient’s relationship with their general practitioner is so important. Research on coercion and undue influence demonstrates that standard capacity assessments, while necessary, are not currently sufficient to identify subtle forms of coercion. That is why I tabled an amendment.

In response to the comments of my noble friend Lord Pannick, about what happens if a GP dies, I am happy to be corrected, but I thought the provision in the Bill about your doctor dying would cover a general practitioner as well as any other doctor involved in the process.

What we are talking about here are really complex decisions. Consulting an established GP or GP practice might mean that they possess the nuanced knowledge which would help somebody make a choice. The requirement that GPs confirm that they have a good understanding of the individual’s personal circumstances represents, to me, a better form of safeguard, ensuring that this knowledge actually exists. We cannot assume anything during this process. The assessment should provide abuse detection capacity unavailable in other types of consultations. For individuals whose care is family dependent, the home visit element—which I had, not so long ago—can play an important part in identifying coercion. If the debate has raised nothing else today, it is that this is a really complicated issue which needs much further work.

[Lord Markham (Con)]

My Lords, perhaps I may just ask a question on that. Everyone believes a GP should be able to conscientiously object. But, in all of this, I have not heard an answer to what happens in that circumstance. Surely, we need a circumstance, as happens today, involving a team-based approach, as the noble Baroness, Lady Gerada, said. Otherwise, you could have formed a great relationship with a GP who then conscientiously objects—which we think is absolutely suitable—withdraws himself or herself from the situation and can no longer take part in it. Surely a team-based approach is the better approach.

[Baroness Grey-Thompson (CB)]

The comments made by my noble friend Lady Gerada explaining the team-based approach seem very sensible in terms of providing that continuity of care. I am very lucky that I see the same GP every time I go; it is interesting to understand that not everybody experiences that. I am not absolutely welded to it being a single GP. For me, it is about ensuring that we have continuity of care and the right support for an individual, and doing it in the right way that enables them to make the best choice, while not experiencing any coercion in making that decision. The more frequent contact means that a GP or a practice may be able to understand some of the really difficult family complications that we absolutely know go on.

Many noble colleagues who worked on the then Domestic Abuse Bill will see that coercion can be very subtle and understated and happens in numerous different ways. We have a duty to make this Bill the safest Bill in the world. The noble and learned Lord will say that it is. We slightly disagree on it being the safest Bill in the world, but we have a duty to make it safer.

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Debate between Baroness Grey-Thompson and Lord Markham

Committee stage
Friday 14th November 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Grey-Thompson (CB)]

My Lords, may I clarify that? I have just checked the information. My noble friend is correct in what she says, in that the support was 50:50, but the majority of respondents—64%—opposed expanding eligibility and 65% of them were not confident that consent could act as an adequate safeguard against unfree choices, such as those resulting from coercion or psychopathology.

[Lord Markham (Con)]

My Lords, it is clear, I think, that we all want the same thing here. Whatever one’s feelings about it generally, if this Bill is passed, we want to make sure that the person is in the right position—I do not use either “capability” or “ability”—to make a decision on whether to take part in assisted dying.

We all want the same thing, so what we have to decide is whether we believe that the existing framework, the Mental Capacity Act, can work here. I have heard a body of evidence that says it can. I respect in particular the evidence from Sir Chris Whitty, who, as Chief Medical Officer, is probably our highest adviser in the land in the medical space. He believes that it can do it. I also respect the opinions of the psychiatrists who have written in and said that, in their professional opinion, they are able to use the Mental Capacity Act to assess whether a person is in the right position to take part in assisted dying. So, as the noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, and others have made out, we have a body of evidence and 20 years of experience showing that the Mental Capacity Act can work and is already acting in very similar situations.

One can argue whether these two things are exactly the same, but they are pretty similar: both involve life-and-death situations, such as “do not resuscitate” orders, people deciding not to eat or drink any more, and people with motor neurone disease asking to come off ventilators. These are all very similar situations that, today, are decided under the Mental Capacity Act. So we have a system that is being used and which our best adviser says works, and we are setting an unknown definition against that. If we set about asking, “What do we mean by ‘ability’?”, we would probably all come up with very different answers. This would be untried and tested; it may take years, if not decades, to find something, against something that exists today. It would be very confusing: when do you use the Mental Capacity Act and when do you use this new definition?

Again, we all want the same thing: for the person to be in the right position. Our highest expert in the land says that the Mental Capacity Act can do it, and a number of psychiatrists are also saying that they can make the assessment under it. To my mind, that is what we should be considering.

Football Governance Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Grey-Thompson and Lord Markham

Committee stage
Monday 9th December 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Markham (Con)]

I would like to support absolutely these amendments. I say for the record—and I am sure that I speak for all contributors to these debates—that I am making these points because I care deeply about football and about what is best for football. I think these amendments absolutely do that.

I have many examples of sitting on boards as an independent non-exec director; they are absolutely the sort of people we want, making sure that a club is putting forward appropriate business plans that are sensible, and sometimes taking a risk—risk appetite is in these amendments—but with the right approach to doing so. Having that balance on the board, of owners, supporters and independent, wise heads, has got to be a sensible thing. With that in mind, I offer my support for the amendments.

[Baroness Grey-Thompson (CB)]

My Lords, I rise very briefly to speak to Amendments 54, 156 and 157. I apologise to your Lordships for not being here on the previous day of Committee but, as chair of Sport Wales—I declare my interest—I was chairing a meeting of Welsh governing bodies of sport.

In my time involved in sport, I have sat on a number of different sports bodies, including British Athletics, where intimate knowledge of the sport is really helpful, and the Olympic Park London Legacy Development Corporation, where wider knowledge of a range of sports makes a difference. I put my name on these amendments because I sat for two years on the board of Yorkshire County Cricket Club and was interim chair for nine months. As part of that, I was challenged occasionally on whether I knew the laws of cricket and how dare I put my name forward for this. But I was not there as an independent non-executive to umpire a game; I was there to bring good governance to the county.

Bringing that jigsaw of skills is really important. As the noble Lord, Lord Knight, mentioned, there is a sports governance code. Olympic and Paralympic sport have benefited greatly from having this. It is about bringing that expertise, accountability and scrutiny. For me, it is about setting the tone for the whole pyramid of the game, and how that feeds up to the Premier League. If we do not get this right for the pyramid, we do not get it right for the sport. I look forward to hearing the Minister’s response to these amendments.