Crime and Policing Bill

Debate between Baroness Kidron and Lord Pannick

3rd reading
Wednesday 25th March 2026 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Kidron (CB)]

My Lords, I too support the noble Baroness, Lady Owen. As ever, she has spoken fantastically convincingly to her amendments, which sit in a broader set of aims that we have heard in Committee and on Report—at many stages. While recognising that the Government have moved considerably, I believe that we are debating this again in the context of a flood of women coming forward as survivors of non-consensual image abuse. As the harms are ever increasing, I am putting my faith in the noble Baroness’s interpretation of what is still necessary. Her amendments do something really important. I have spoken about this before and will do so on a later Bill this afternoon, but we need to tackle the issue of enforcement.

We cannot keep on adding duties to the Online Safety Act and expecting something to be different at the other end. In fact, we are adding a burden for people without giving them the tools by which that burden could be alleviated. The noble Baroness’s amendments have sought to create a more streamlined and agile system by allowing for fines every 24 hours in which an image is not removed. We have to find an incentive for tech to come to terms with the regulator, and the noble Baroness is doing just that. Unless we put a ticking clock on online services for failing to respond to harms to children and women, we cannot hope that women and children will be safe.

[Lord Pannick (CB)]

I add my support to the noble Baroness, Lady Owen. The noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, puts her finger on it: enforcement is key here, and it is key because we all know that without serious enforcement, these companies, which will be acting in breach of the law, will simply not comply. What will make them comply are substantial fines to hit them in the pocketbook. That is the only thing that will make them comply, and that is why I support the noble Baroness, Lady Owen.

Crime and Policing Bill

Debate between Baroness Kidron and Lord Pannick

Report stage
Monday 2nd March 2026 Lords Chamber

[Lord Pannick (CB)]

My Lords, this group covers a range of human conduct, from the objectionable to the disgusting. I thank the Minister for tabling a series of amendments which will benefit women and society at large. I particularly thank the noble Baroness, Lady Owen, for all the work that she has done, which has led us to this position, and for the amendments that she has tabled. I am sure that the whole House is very grateful to her.

I will speak specifically to Amendment 273, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Owen, to which I have added my name. I understand that the noble Baroness may, if the Minister does not accept the amendment, wish to test the opinion of the House. This amendment simply seeks to impose a duty on a court to make a deprivation and deletion order where a person is convicted of an offence involving sharing or threatening to share intimate images without the consent of the victim.

The argument in favour of this amendment is very simple. It is necessary to give comfort to the victim who knows that the perpetrator has created or distributed the intimate images without consent. Unless there is a duty to destroy this content, the victim is inevitably going to remain extremely concerned that the content will remain in circulation and in existence.

That is the first argument. The second argument is that I can think of no justification whatever why the culprit should retain such intimate images when they have been convicted of being a wrongdoer in this respect. Those two points make this amendment unanswerable, and I strongly support it.

[Baroness Kidron (CB)]

My Lords, I support all the amendments in this group—the government amendments, those in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Owen, and the other amendment that was tabled. It was such an excellent speech, with such detail, that I do not want to go over the specifics, except to say that the noble Baroness is our leader and we will follow her through the Lobby.

I want to make one point, regarding the fantastic list of what is in the gap between what Ofcom can do and what Parliament can do. We should hesitate on that thought. Having looked a little this afternoon at the Government’s consultation, I see that there is almost nothing about what Ofcom cannot do, almost nothing about enforcement and, as I explained earlier, almost nothing about risk assessment. What happens beforehand, to prevent all this? What happens after it has all happened and we start to get enforcement? We cannot keep playing around in the middle. We have to go upstream, to the beginning, and we have to come to the end and get these things categorically dealt with in a way that interferes with business and makes it unacceptable to do it. With that, I will be supporting the noble Baroness.

Data (Use and Access) Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Kidron and Lord Pannick

Report stage
Tuesday 28th January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Pannick (CB)]

My Lords, I add my congratulations to the noble Baroness, Lady Owen, for her skill and persistence in persuading the Government to address this noxious practice, which is causing so many women so much distress and humiliation. It is outrageous that this is still not unlawful.

I very much welcome what the Minister said, and I will press him on four matters. I hope that I understood him correctly when he said that the criminal offence will include solicitation in this country of the creation of these images abroad. I see that he is nodding—I am grateful. This is vital for this provision because, unless the criminal offence in this country covers such matters, the mischief will continue, as the Minister recognises. I can see no difficulty in terms of constitutional theory or practice or international law, because there are many offences in the criminal calendar where what is criminalised is conduct in this country, even though part of the matter that causes concern occurs abroad. I am very grateful to the Minister.

Secondly—and I hope I understood the Minister correctly—he said that the Government’s amendments will contain no intent element other than intent to create the image. That is very important. If the prosecution has to establish some other intent, that will enable defendants to come up with all sorts of spurious explanations such as, “It was not my intent” and “I didn’t realise that it would have this effect”, which would frustrate the purpose. I think that is what the Minister said, and I would welcome confirmation on that important point.

I would also welcome confirmation on another point. Another “intent”—intent to cause alarm, distress or humiliation—is in his Amendment 56A, which I of course appreciate will not be pursued in due course. Does the Minister’s statement that no other intent than intent to create the image will be required also covers the other element, which is in Amendment 56A? That also requires the prosecution to prove, as an alternative, the purpose for which these images are created. It has to be proved under Amendment 56A that the purpose is to obtain sexual gratification. The defendant will inevitably say that it is not their purpose. Could the Minister confirm that that will not be replicated in the amendment that will eventually be brought forward? I see the Minister nodding, and I am grateful to him.

Thirdly, the Minister referred to what will be in the amendment that will eventually be brought forward. If I understood him correctly, there will be a defence of reasonable excuse. The Minister confirms that that is what he said. I have great difficulty in understanding in what circumstances a defendant could have a reasonable excuse for creating or soliciting a fake image of a sexual nature without either the consent of the victim or, at the very least, a reasonable belief by the defendant that the victim had consented. Can the Minister give us an example of where the image has been created or solicited and the defendant does not believe that the woman has consented, or does not have a reasonable belief that the woman has consented, but there is nevertheless a reasonable excuse for this conduct? I cannot think of one. I am not expecting an answer from the Minister today, but if his amendment contains the reasonable excuse defence, I for one will be pressing him on it.

Fourthly and finally, I understood the Minister to give a commitment, not that the amendment will be ready in time necessarily for Third Reading, but that it will be ready and introduced during the passage of this Bill through Parliament. My understanding is that there is no question of this being kicked into the long grass. We have a commitment that the Government will propose legislation in the course of parliamentary consideration of this Bill. If I am right on that—again, I saw the Minister nodding—I very much hope that the noble Baroness, Lady Owen, will not feel it necessary to press her amendment this evening. She has made enormous progress on this, which is much welcomed around the House. It would be much better, would it not, to preserve and reserve her position for Third Reading, if she needs to bring the matter back then?

[Baroness Kidron (CB)]

My Lords, it is such a pleasure briefly to follow my noble friend Lord Pannick; not for the first time I thought that, if I ever get in trouble, I know who I will go to.

I record my admiration for the noble Baroness, Lady Owen. She has fought a just and forensic fight and she has mastered the gift of the House of Lords very rapidly. I also thank the Minister, Sarah Sackman, for the meeting on this subject and for agreeing to look again and again at the issue of intent and consent, which is something that those of us who have been in the world of sexual offences really must insist on, so I was delighted to hear from the noble Baroness and the Minister that that is somewhat resolved.