Euro

Baroness Kramer Excerpts

Thursday 27th October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, it really is not helpful for the party opposite to try to paint this completely false picture of a two-speed Europe. As I have already explained, the euro-out countries are integral to the single market—the eurozone understands that—and we will be part of the centrality of what needs to be done to drive forward structural reform of the single market, and so on. The other thing that is completely wrong is to paint Europe now as two-speed. There is a variable geometry EU, as we have it. Remember that other important areas such as justice and home affairs, as the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, recognises, also run in different ways. Therefore the idea that there will be some fundamentally changed, two-speed Europe is again ridiculously simplistic.

[Baroness Kramer]

My Lords—

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Sassoon]

No, my Lords, that is not the situation. Forty per cent of our trade goes to the eurozone, 50 per cent goes to the EU, and we have to work to preserve the structure.

[Baroness Kramer]

My Lords—

[Lord Davies of Stamford]

My Lords—

Legislative Reform (Industrial and Provident Societies and Credit Unions) Order 2011

Baroness Kramer Excerpts

Thursday 20th October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

My Lords, today is International Credit Union Day and the theme for the celebrations is “Credit Unions Build a Better World”. It celebrates the important economic and social contributions credit unions make to their communities worldwide. I am vice-chair of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Credit Unions and it is wonderful that we are debating and approving this statutory instrument today of all days.

As the noble Lord said, credit unions are financial co-operatives owned and controlled by their members. Credit unions in the UK manage over £600 million on behalf of over 900,000 people. The order before us today makes some very welcome changes. It was originally laid in similar form by the last Labour Government, as the noble Lord said, and I was delighted when the present Government sought to carry forward these much needed reforms. The order makes a number of sensible changes, such as allowing credit unions to pay interest on savings rather than a dividend. It allows them to provide services to community groups, attract investments and extend the services that they offer. That is all very welcome. I congratulate the Government on what they have done.

However, this is only one of a number of steps that the Government should be taking. Although the credit union sector in the UK is growing, it is still relatively small. With the right support, the potential for major expansion is all too evident. That expansion and growth would be of benefit to communities up and down the country. We must also remember that it is a sad fact that some of the most financially excluded citizens have to pay the highest price for credit, which we should all regret and want to work to eliminate. We have seen organisations on the high street that are little more than legal loan sharks which charge people 2,000, 3,000 and 4,000 per cent interest to borrow money. Expansion of the credit union sector gives people who are financially excluded the opportunity to become financially included and to pay a fair price for the credit that they need.

The big society seems to have disappeared a bit from the vocabulary of the Government in recent months, but initiatives like this, which enable people to help themselves, are what I understand by the big society and are very welcome.

[Baroness Kramer]

My Lords, let me join others in welcoming this order laid before us. Like others, I think that the only regret is that we had not seen it perhaps a little sooner, but I am delighted that it has come now. I am also delighted to be able to look at it in the context of the Government’s commitment to credit unions. A project is now under way between the Post Office and ABCUL—a sort of industry spokesperson for credit unions more broadly—to find ways for the Post Office to be the front-door platform for many people to access their accounts through the Post Office structure. That would have been inadequate were these other steps not being taken to expand the capacity of credit unions.

I am particularly delighted that we now have a new definition of the common bond, which will take a real constraint away from credit unions and their capacity to build membership and to serve the community. The United States has long had much greater flexibility. Whereas in the UK the figures from ABCUL suggest that the current amount of assets under credit union management is £790 million, in the United States—even allowing for the difference in population size—some $900 billion of total assets come within the credit union structure. We are looking at a completely different dimension, which I hope the UK will be able to move towards. As the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, has said, many people who are financially excluded can see a route into financial inclusion through credit unions that they would not find in the high street banks.

I also am encouraged by the expansion of the groups which a credit union can serve to include corporate bodies, partnerships and unincorporated associations. We have many small businesses which once again cannot find a satisfactory financial relationship through existing high street banks. They need other sources and mechanisms. Again, if we look at the United States, it is interesting that the ability to serve small business has long been part of the credit union framework. In 2011 alone, the Obama Administration are using that credit union network to push $300 million in additional credit directly to small and very small business in a way in which we have no capacity to do here in the UK. For the kind of activity that we are seeing through credit easing—obviously, that is a much broader programme—in the United States that is able to happen far more easily and fluidly through mechanisms such as the credit union and the much wider world of community development banks. We can now begin to move towards having that potential here in the UK.

With the new classes of shares and the ability to deepen investment, we are coming now to the point where there is a recognition that more diversity and provision that focuses on people who are financially excluded, and on businesses that are micro and small, is all to the positive for the growth that we need in our economy.

I join others in welcoming this order laid before us by the Government today. I express apologies from my noble friend Lord Newby, who had expected to be standing here but, because of the time, unfortunately could not cancel another commitment. I welcome this move by the Government.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, the Minister greeted my arrival at the Front Bench with a slightly wintry smile earlier. Whether he thought I was late, though I assure him I was descending from the rarefied atmosphere of the Back Benches, which is why I was slightly delayed, or whether he anticipated that this debate had some hidden horrors, I am not sure. He will, however, by now have appreciated the fact, from the contributions both of my noble friend Lord Kennedy and of the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, that this measure is most welcome and Her Majesty’s Opposition are delighted to see it being presented today.

As noble Lords have already spoken about the virtues and possibilities of the credit union and the Minister himself paid due tribute to their work, it would be otiose of me to expand on that matter and, as I am given to brevity, noble Lords will appreciate that I will take as read the reason why this order should commend itself to the House. However, I have some questions to ask, which I hope the Minister will be able to respond to. What does he expect the removal of the limit on non-withdrawal shares to be? Will this result in dominant members of a society emerging? What steps will the FSA be taking to ensure that societies do not become subject to such dominance whereby a small number of individuals might establish a very considerable influence with regard to these non-withdrawable share holdings?

On credit unions, could I ask about the removal of the common bond, which is the whole point of a credit union, because it provides the self-regulatory strength of mutual knowledge and understanding? What does this mean as far as the future of the credit union is concerned? Does it mean that credit unions will be just another form of financial organisation rather than the distinctive sort of organisation which is being commended in the speeches made so far today in this short debate?

Finally, what does the Minister expect to be the impact of bodies corporate joining credit unions? Will this not lead to small commercial enterprises exploiting the financial strength of the credit union to further the interests of their own businesses? In other words, would credit unions become tied to businesses instead of being independent? After all, one business which might supply 10 per cent of the assets of the credit union will undoubtedly be a powerful force within it.

We welcome this legislation, but I would be grateful if the Minister could give me some assurance on those limited anxieties.

Independent Commission on Banking

Baroness Kramer Excerpts

Monday 12th September 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

I am grateful to the noble Baroness for pointing out the good sense with which the commission addressed the question of the ring-fence. Clearly it has thought about the arguments that have been put over recent months. In respect of the failure of regulation, on which I completely agree with her, the overhaul of the regulatory structure, which is coming forward in the financial services Bill, is very significant. It puts the primary responsibility for looking at the risk in the entire system where it ought to be: that is, with the central bank. That is a fundamental change. The new Financial Policy Committee of the Bank of England is up in effective shadow mode, ahead of the legislation going through. It is able to address—and is addressing—risk issues as we speak, and I am sure that it will take note of whether there is anything further in the report that it ought to pick up on.

[Baroness Kramer]

My Lords, I join others in welcoming the Government’s enthusiastic acceptance of the report, and particularly of ring-fencing, which is much harder to erode than changes in regulation. However, I am sure that the Minister will agree that those who have suffered the most from the failure of the banks and the depth of the economic crisis that followed have been among the most vulnerable and disadvantaged, along with the smallest businesses. Would he be willing, as he looks to introduce a new bank that will provide more high street competition, to encourage banking services that will address the micro and the very small business, and which will reach out to the economically disadvantaged, who currently get a basic bank account offered with ill grace and very few services?

[Lord Sassoon]

I am grateful to my noble friend Lady Kramer for bringing us back to one of the constituencies most affected by the state of our banking system. That is why I welcome the discussion in the report about issues concerning the ability of individuals to switch accounts. There are important recommendations about the Lloyds Bank disposals, which make the point that this is not just a numbers game, of counting the branches that must be disposed of, but about creating another competitor out there. Therefore the report addresses critical aspects of the challenges that she poses, but in addition—whether it is looking at mutual models, credit unions or all the other aspects of a rich and varied banking system—there are significant other channels which the Government continue to address.

Global Economy

Baroness Kramer Excerpts

Thursday 11th August 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sewel]

My Lords, the Minister has rightly drawn attention to the weaknesses, indeed the failures, of the European political institutions in responding to the crisis. Would he care to reflect on the contribution of the political institutions of the United States to the present crisis? Could it possibly have something to do with the fact that they have a political structure based on two elected Chambers, one in which the Executive have a majority and one in which they do not? We have heard that somewhere before.

[Baroness Kramer]

My Lords, these dark glasses are not for glamour but to prevent me sharing an eye infection. I very much agree with the Minister that the Government, and individuals, have no choice but to deleverage. Many of our large companies are not anxious at this time to invest or borrow significantly because they are doubtful about both the domestic and international economy. Surely, however, one sector has significant capacity to absorb new investment in the form of equity and debt: that of the micro-businesses and very small businesses, because they have been in large part neglected by our banking sector and our financial institutions for years. Would the Minister be willing to look at a programme that specifically targets those kinds of businesses which, culturally, our current institutions usually fail to serve, perhaps building off some of the schemes which are being looked at now to revitalise the high streets which were so badly damaged earlier this week?

[Lord Harrison]

My Lords, I am sorry that the Minister has had to break off his holiday reading of your Lordships’ European Union Select Committee’s Sovereign Credit Ratings report. I hope that he will return and study it when he is next on the beach, and reflect on some of the words from the noble Lord, Lord Oakeshott. These institutions exist but a healthier degree of scepticism might inform the City and, indeed, elsewhere to ensure that they are taken for what they are—an educated guess as to the future debt of sovereign nations.

Secondly, would the Minister consult his colleague on the business section about the regional growth fund, which I raised some months ago? I discovered and reported to your Lordships that it was unsuccessful at the moment, especially because of the £1 million bar required for small businesses to make application to that fund. My third point relates to the points made by the noble Baroness, Lady O’Cathain, in the European Sub-Committee B’s report on the single, internal market. Why do we not put greater effort into ensuring that the market comes to fruition, which would surely benefit UK companies perhaps more than any others within the 27 countries of the European Union?

Finance: Off-exchange Trading Venues

Baroness Kramer Excerpts

Monday 18th July 2011 Lords Chamber

Asked By

[Baroness Kramer]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the risk to financial markets of off-exchange trading venues commonly known as “dark pools”.

[The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Sassoon)]

My Lords, the Government strongly support ongoing initiatives at the European and international levels to improve transparency in financial markets. The International Organisation of Securities Commissions, IOSCO, has recently agreed a set of principles for regulating dark pools that will help inform the European Commission’s ongoing review of the markets in financial instruments directive, MiFID.

[Baroness Kramer]

I thank the Minister for that Answer. He will be aware that Andrew Haldane of the Bank of England, in a speech a week ago, pointed out the dominance of dark pools and their high-frequency trading in many financial markets. Does the Minister agree that the lack of transparency, the price differential suffered by small investors, the implications for corporate governance of nanosecond share ownership and, above all, Andrew Haldane’s concern that liquidity could disappear rapidly in times of stress all point to a serious risk to financial stability? Will he continue to follow the issue and look at more action by the British Government, not just at the European level?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, we should distinguish—as I am sure my noble friend Lady Kramer does—between the two issues of dark pools and high-frequency trading, both of which I am sure noble Lords are very familiar with. Dark pools are akin to what used to be called “upstairs trading”—off the floor of the Stock Exchange. We need to make sure that the benefits of being able to trade in such an environment, such as competition and choice for investors, do not impinge in any way on the transparency and the price-discovery ability of markets. The FSA has done work on that and is content that the price-discovery mechanism is not being damaged.

High-frequency trading is a very new and slightly separate area, although I agree that it is related, and it is one on which the Government are doing considerable work. A research project led by the Government Office for Science is looking at the possible evolution of computer-generated trading and its implications, and will produce up to 20 papers on the subject during 2011.

Regulatory and Banking Reform

Baroness Kramer Excerpts

Thursday 16th June 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, first, for making a clear admission that the tripartite system failed and therefore something needed to be done about it, and, secondly, for welcoming various of the other aspects of what we are doing, including our approach to bank failure and pre-legislative scrutiny. However, the fact that he starts with bracketing together a recognition of the failure of the tripartite system and then questioning the approach taken by my right honourable friend the Chancellor and others of us who are now in the Treasury and what we did in the past is remarkable. We got on to the case in opposition immediately the crisis hit and started to work practically on learning the lessons.

I completely agree with the noble Lord that fine work of analysis was done by the noble Lord, Lord Turner, particularly in his FSA report, and others, but the previous Government had a couple of years in which they signally failed. If they recognised the failure of the tripartite system, they certainly did not tell us then. They had two years in which they could have established an independent commission to look at banking. They could have done the work to analyse what would be a better system but they did none of that. Instead, my right honourable friend the Chancellor, when in opposition, commissioned work from people, including myself. We did a considerable amount of work that put us in a good position, so that when we got into office we launched the rounds of consultation that have led to today’s White Paper. It is not therefore a question of hindsight being a fine thing but of getting on, learning the lessons and starting down the track of implementing a better system.

The noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, went on to question the powers of the FPC. I appreciate that the White Paper is a long document to have absorbed in the past few hours and point to the discussion in it about the possible tools and powers that the FPC may have. In order to move forward on that, we have asked the FPC to come forward with proposals in the next few months—I expect them in the third quarter—for the tools and powers that it believes will be necessary and appropriate to enable it to carry out its function. For the avoidance of all doubt, I will confirm that the FPC will have no role in setting fiscal policy.

The noble Lord then raised the issue of macroprudential and microprudential risks. I thought that his analysis was interesting. Clearly there is a very difficult issue about where the micro and macro areas stop and start and how they relate to each other, which goes to the heart of the problem with the tripartite arrangement. The Bank of England was clearly responsible for analysis of the macro risks but was not given by the previous Government the tools to deal with the consequences of the problems that it found. On the other hand, the Financial Services Authority was responsible for the micro risks—and never the twain shall meet. I am surprised that the noble Lord does not give the Government credit for the fact that we have brought the macro and micro together under the umbrella of the Bank of England precisely to address the problem that he identifies.

The noble Lord mentioned toxic products. Some of these may have been related to macro factors, but one has only to look at the scandal of PPI—not to mention a string of other products wheeled out by the financial services sector over the past few years—to understand that toxic products are most often generated at firm level, and it is appropriate that the conduct authority should have powers to ban them.

The noble Lord went on to ask about the definition of the ring fence. The question of the ring fence should be left to the appropriate experts. The Independent Commission on Banking, chaired by Sir John Vickers, will in the second phase of its work focus on precisely how the ring fence will work; that is what it is doing at the moment. On the specific question of whether the ring fence will apply to EU-passported banks, the FSA’s and in future the PRA’s full rules will apply only to banks headquartered in the UK. EU bank branches that are passported into the UK have as their lead authority the EU home regulation, not the UK host regulation: therefore, any ICB proposals would be implemented consistent with EU law. That is one of the principles enshrined in my honourable friend's Statement.

The question of Northern Rock was raised. As I said, we want to see a competition and are required under state aid rules to have one that is fair and open to all parties. We would welcome mutuals participating in that bidding process. As to whether a mutual outcome would be a greater buttress of stability, that is open to question. Any bidder for Northern Rock or participant in our banking system needs to demonstrate a level of financial stability that meets the regulatory requirements. I think one should not draw a distinction between different categories of institution on that basis.

The last point raised by the noble Lord was about Basel III and the Government’s support for the higher capital requirements under it, I think pointing out that the capitalisation of the Irish banks exceeded the Basel III limits. That enables me to confirm that the Government’s position on this is that for too-big-to-fail banks a capital buffer above Basel III is appropriate to ensure their resilience.

[Baroness Kramer]

My Lords, I must congratulate the Government on their courage in recognising not just the need to reform regulation and the regulatory system, which certainly was not fit for purpose, but to go beyond that to recognise the need to restructure the banking industry in the teeth of a lot of opposition from the industry itself, although a stronger case certainly needs to be made fully to convince all of us that ring fencing is a better strategy than division of the banks.

I shall ask the Minister two questions arising out of today. He talked a moment ago about a new regulatory system bringing together micro and macro, which is what we all wish to see, but he will be aware of the remarks made today by the Governor of the Bank of England, which were quoted in the Daily Telegraph, about reducing the burden of routine collection and focusing on the major risks to the system. He will know that the system collapsed in large part because securitisation and derivatives were piled on top of mortgage loans that were faulty and very often fraudulent. It was the failure to see the link between the micro and the macrosystemic that led to the crisis that we saw. Will he make sure that we do not now have a swing back in the other direction in regulation to systemic ignoring the relevance of the micro?

On the return of banks to private ownership, which is something we all wish to see, will he give some assurances that serious consideration will be given to schemes such as that proposed by my colleague Stephen Williams, MP for Bristol West, which would involve a distribution of shares in part to the public in order that they may gain some of the upside? The Treasury would still receive its funding, but on a deferred basis. Would he agree that UK Financial Investments, being a very silo organisation, is not likely to appreciate the potential benefits of that much wider engagement with the public, sharing upside reward with people who have suffered from the crisis?

[Lord Sassoon]

I am grateful to my noble friend Lady Kramer for her general support for what we are doing and her recognition of how far the Government have already gone in pushing forward with the structural and regulatory reforms. On the micro/macro link, I refer noble Lords to the full, and very interesting, remarks by the Governor last night at the Mansion House because he talked with great coherence and good sense about what the failure of the previous regulatory regime was, which was to collect a huge amount of detailed data that it was unable to analyse to draw out the conclusions.

However, in the new world, experienced bank supervisors are needed who are able to analyse and draw out the picture, which was never difficult—whether it was on securitisation or on a lot of other matters or funding models—before the crisis. There should be meaningful discussions with the banks in terms of the individual banks that they supervise about what this translates to in terms of the exposure of the individual bank’s business model. If my noble friend were to read the Governor’s full remarks, she would see that the Bank is absolutely where she would like it to be on its thinking on this. I got no sense of swing-back in it.

On ownership of the banks, we are well aware of the proposals that have come in, including that from Stephen Williams on mass retail participation. We and UKFI are actively considering mass retail participation as we think ahead to returning the banks into the private sector, which of course is not the same thing. A subset of it would be distributing the banks’ shares for free or on some other basis, which raises value-for-money considerations and quite a lot of technical market considerations. But I can reassure my noble friend that all these proposals will be given due consideration.

Consumer Insurance (Disclosure and Representations) Bill [HL]

Baroness Kramer Excerpts

Monday 13th June 2011 Grand Committee

[Baroness Kramer]

My Lords, I am delighted to have an opportunity to speak in what I assume is the Second Reading of this Bill and to congratulate the Government on a piece of legislation that has long been needed.

I became aware of the issues that this Bill attempts to redress when I was a Member in the other place. A constituent came to my office. She was a redoubtable lady—and thank goodness that she was. She and her husband had purchased a house, taken out a mortgage and purchased from the mortgage provider an insurance policy so that if the husband died—he was the breadwinner in the family—the insurance policy would pay the remaining payments due on the mortgage, to provide security for the widow and children.

Her husband very sadly died of a heart attack. Obviously, it was devastating for the family. She had to consider how she would go back to work and the children had to adjust to not having the presence of their father. It was a traumatic time, but the thought that comforted them was that they could remain in their house because the insurance would take care of the mortgage. However, it turned out on examination by the insurance company that in disclosing his medical history her husband had not said that, something like two years before the insurance was taken out, he had visited his doctor. He had been somewhat under stress and the doctor suggested that he was rather depressed and gave him a prescription. I believe that it was for Valium. The depression did not continue and never became a serious issue. There was no continuing medication. However, in the doctor’s notes on that one occasion, this discussion of his depression was duly and properly recorded.

On those grounds, the insurance company refused to pay out under the policy. This lady would have lost her home. She fought the issue for over two and a half years. I ended up in many a conversation with the ombudsman, there were letters to the FSA, the courts became involved and, eventually, she won her case, but it was a two-and-a-half-year struggle. In that time, she would have lost her house had her parents not been able to help her to make the ongoing mortgage payments. The loss of the house would have added to the trauma that the children and family were facing. Even if eventually the financial solution was appropriate, it would never have dealt with the emotional damage to that family.

It seems to me that this legislation will address a situation like that—I hope that the Minister can confirm that that is so. That is critical because, although in the past many people were eventually able to get redress either through the ombudsman, a long-term court battle or in other ways, the suffering because of the struggle and its consequences took an enormous toll on families. I use this example because sometimes such issues, particularly insurance, become much more real when seen in the context of what an individual experiences. I am delighted that, as I read it, the legislation seems to address all counts for such issues.

I have one further question, which perhaps the Minister can answer. He will know that relevance in insurance policies has always been significant. In a sense, relevance is somewhat captured by this legislation as it presents itself on paper. In the claim that I discussed just now, if the insurance company were to understand that the homeowner had failed to disclose this issue, it could have decided perhaps to exclude certain conditions in the policy or to charge a higher premium, but it would not have been able to use that factor to void any responsibility to pay. The sliding scale, in effect, becomes an interesting mechanism to make sure that irrelevant conditions do not intrude on the payment obligation of the insurer. That is a big step forward.

It is good to know that the Bill has been welcomed on all sides, including by the insurance industry, as it is in the industry’s interests to restore its reputation. We know that, on the street, there is very much an attitude that an insurance company will use any mechanism that it can find to avoid paying. In the long run, that does the industry no good, so its support for this legislation is a win-win all round and I am delighted to welcome it.

Banks: Cheques

Baroness Kramer Excerpts

Monday 6th June 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lea of Crondall]

My Lords—

[Baroness Kramer]

My Lords, as the Minister will know, Germany has already withdrawn cheques from general use. I called German relatives to ask how they deal with payments that they either do not wish to make online or cannot make online, and the answer was to keep a lot of cash at home and in your pocket. Given the vulnerability of people and our whole desire to move away from cash being in the home or on people who are frail and potentially at risk, will he make sure that the Payments Council understands that this is not one of the answers?

Economy: Government Policies

Baroness Kramer Excerpts

Thursday 24th March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Kramer]

My Lords, I suspect that when we look back on this Budget in a few years’ time, two measures will stand out: the Chancellor's commitment to raising the tax threshold, a commitment to fairness even at a time of tackling a major deficit and a significant economic crisis; and the green investment bank. The bank will start slowly, but in 20 years’ time when we look back it will be seen as key to achieving a response to climate change, which, as I think almost everyone in the House is aware, is an absolute imperative.

I am very supportive of yesterday's Budget, but in my speech I will raise some of the issues that were not tackled and ask the Government to look at them seriously. As the noble Lord, Lord Griffiths, who is not in his place, said earlier, we have a challenge to rebound to trend growth and then to sustain trend growth. For any developed country, growth at that pace is a significant challenge. We do not have the potential that countries such as India or China have, with relatively low GDP per capita, to accelerate growth beyond trend, and it requires many things being done correctly.

One of the issues that was not addressed in the Budget is capital accumulation. Without that in place, it is very hard to see how we achieve sustained growth. In plain English, capital accumulation is essentially savings. I think that the savings rate in this country—others will correct me—runs at about 2 per cent of GDP, and most economists would say that it needs to be about 10 per cent of GDP for there to be sustained trend growth. I know that that is difficult. People have wrestled with the issue of how to persuade people to focus less on immediate consumption and more on long-term savings. Without that in place, achieving successful growth in the economy over the long term will be a challenge and, rather than duck that, we have to address it head on.

My second issue is about infrastructure, which was hardly tackled in the Budget. There were some measures to invest in various rail improvements and I know that elsewhere transport investments are going ahead. Essentially, one pillar of economic growth that the Government can provide is infrastructure and, traditionally, we have spectacularly failed to do that in this country. We have allowed much of our infrastructure to fall into decay. I raise the possibility that we keep continuing at that pace partly because of the way in which we measure growth. We constantly use GDP, which, as this House will know, has no depreciation in it. Any depletion of resources is not reflected in GDP and gives us a distorted sense of what, in many ways, is happening to our infrastructure.

I have a very quick example, but I am not an economist so others may correct me. If you look at growth between the two troughs of the Thatcher period, you will see that growth was averaging about 1.7 per cent, but I am told by economists that, if you remove from that number the depletion of oil and gas in the North Sea—a non-renewable resource—growth would have looked pretty flat at zero. In other words, we were achieving that by what looked like fundamental growth but it was in fact usage of a depleting resource. We have not included that in the way in which we tackle our thinking. Surely now is the time to make that change.

Gordon Brown attempted to do it in many senses by the golden rule, but that became abused politically. The privatisation of utilities was a mechanism to get around some of that, and PFI, under the last Government, was probably the most expensive way to carry out investment into projects and infrastructure. Again, it circumvented some of the issues. I ask that we consider tackling this issue head on.

The noble Lord, Lord Sugar, raised the issue of credit and said that you cannot ask banks to lend to inappropriate companies and inappropriate projects. I do not think anyone in the House would expect them to do that. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Sugar, that when he began his business and went to British banks and was turned away, I suspect that if he had gone to a bank in Germany or in the United States he would have had a very different response. The high street banks in this country have lost the people, the skill base or the willingness of the institutions to carry out risk assessment, to look at a proposal or a project, to begin to understand a would-be entrepreneur and to recognise whether there is a business there for which they can provide financial support and in which they can participate.

All that has largely been discarded for a much more mechanistic and inexpensive way of assessing any request for a loan from a small business, especially from a micro or a new business, that ticks a number of boxes in a fairly superficial way and does not carry out the kind of skilled risk assessment that there used to be in the past. We have lost our Captain Mainwarings and, to be straightforward about it, it seems to be very difficult to spark the new ventures that everyone here sees as essential to underpin growth in the economy again. Banks will be required to lend 15 per cent more, but we cannot let them get away with lending just to medium-sized well established companies to meet their quota; we have to get them to do the work with the micro and new businesses or make them finance someone else to do it.

As my time is running out, I have one last comment—on localism. It seems to me that one of the best things that the enterprise zones can say to local authorities is, “Ease up on planning regulations and in return any growth in the business rate will go directly to you”. This seems to be the first time that we are reconnecting local authorities with business development within their own communities. The fact that the business rate goes to central government has removed every incentive. In the past, we had local authorities engaging with local businesses and local people who drove forward development, particularly of new and small businesses. We need that re-engagement. I ask again that the Government look at that issue.

Independent Commission on Banking

Baroness Kramer Excerpts

Monday 28th February 2011 Lords Chamber

Asked By

[Baroness Kramer]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the progress of the Independent Commission on Banking.

[The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Sassoon)]

My Lords, the Government set up the Independent Commission on Banking to consider reforms to the banking sector. We welcome the progress that the commission has made and look forward to receiving its report in September.

[Baroness Kramer]

Does my noble friend agree that strengthened regulation supervision and stronger capital requirements are welcome but that neither of them deals with the underlying structural problems of “too big to fail” or “too interconnected to fail”? Will he commit the Government to act on any recommendations from the ICB for reform in this area, even if it means splitting the banks or ring-fencing activities with functional subsidiarity?

[Lord Sassoon]

I certainly agree with my noble friend that there were two areas that the Government needed to address urgently resulting from the failure of the previous system of regulation and the over-leveraging of our banks. The first one on which we have brought forward proposals is the system of regulation, although I completely agree with my noble friend that that is not sufficient, which is why we set up the independent commission to look into the structure of banking. I am certainly not going to pre-empt either the conclusions that it comes to in its final report or the Government’s response, but I am greatly encouraged by the papers that it put out and by the recent lecture by Sir John Vickers, which indicate that the commission is tackling all the major issues and stimulating a vigorous debate.