Smart Meters

Debate between Baroness Maddock and Lord Henley

Monday 8th July 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Henley]

My noble friend brings great expertise to dealing with the interests of consumers. I can assure her that the programme regularly engages with consumer groups such as Citizens Advice. It has a dedicated consumer issues forum, which they and other consumer groups regularly attend. My honourable friend the Minister for Consumer Affairs has regular meetings with the appropriate bodies.

[Baroness Maddock (LD)]

My Lords, how many people who had first- generation smart meters came up against problems when they tried to change their supplier? It was anticipated that people would make savings when they had smart meters. Have those savings reached the Government’s anticipated level?

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I cannot help the noble Baroness on the first figure she asked for, but if some figures are available, I shall certainly write to her. Earlier meters will be enrolled in the Data Communications Company infrastructure by the end of 2020, which I hope will help on that front. We are expecting to provide bill savings of some £1.2 billion by 2030, making the programme a very good investment for the country.

Smart Meters Bill

Debate between Baroness Maddock and Lord Henley

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 24th April 2018 Grand Committee

[Lord Henley]

Again, I will take advice on that. We will come back to it on a later amendment. The noble Lord, Lord Teverson, has spoken about not moving further until we have a large number rolled out. However, my understanding is that this process is beginning to happen and that numbers are going up. The noble Baroness is looking at me in disbelief, as she so often does. We often disagree.

[Baroness Maddock (LD)]

In defence of my noble friend, we have had briefings which tell us what she has just said to the Minister. I do not know where he gets his briefings, but the industry has briefed us and it is clear that SMETS 2 is not at the stage that he thinks it is.

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I am not sure whether, strictly speaking, the noble Baroness is correct. My understanding is that the number of SMETS 2 installations will go up over the coming months, in which case it will be possible to test them, and therefore that by October we will be at a stage where we can go ahead. We have time on our hands on this matter and, as I said, I would like to have further meetings with the noble Baroness and others between now and Report. We could then go through some of these particular points.

At the moment perhaps I may get on with these amendments and come back to my point. As I said in response to the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, there will be this change in October. SMETS 1 meters will no longer count, but suppliers will still be able to make use of their workforce in the installation process.

On the extension that the noble Lord is generously seeking on behalf of the Government, we do not think it can be justified. It would not send out the right signals and could even have—dare I say it?—an unhelpful impact. It could suggest that the Government would play an active role in leading the programme well beyond the point at which the self-sustaining industry model overseen by Ofgem is due to take over. It also risks undermining industry momentum in progressing the rollout just as suppliers are accelerating deployment with the new generation of meters being brought in. Delay to investment decisions and deployment would also bring delay to the benefits that accrue to consumers from receiving smart meters. In turn, that could impact on the pace of moving to a smart meter system with dynamic time-of-use tariffs made possible by smart meter installation. That is why we are firmly committed to the programme’s timetable as reflected in Clause 1.

The noble Lord referred to the NAO report. We welcomed it and the follow-up study on smart meters, and will work closely with the NAO to help review the progress of the programme, but I do not believe that the report necessarily means that we need a pause in the rollout. As the noble Lord knows, it is routine for the NAO periodically to examine every major government programme, as it did on smart metering in 2011 and 2014. We will take note of the report and discuss it with the NAO, but I do not think that the programme needs a pause.

Amendment 2 relates to the power to remove licensable activities. This amendment seeks to limit the extension of the Secretary of State’s power, so that beyond 1 November 2018 he would not be able to exercise the power to remove any licensable activities in respect of smart meter communications. The Government have so far used the power only to establish the provision of a smart meter communication service as a licensable activity. That ensures that we have a communications and data system that supports secure, reliable and interoperable services for smart meters. The DCC is playing a fundamental role in driving smart metering benefits, and we do not currently consider that we will exercise this power to remove the provision of a smart meter communication service as a licensable activity.

However, we cannot rule out that evidence could emerge to suggest that the removal of at least some elements of this licensable activity to the market could be justified. Retaining the power to remove licensable activities in respect of smart meter communications is therefore necessary as a backstop and is consistent with the Secretary of State’s principal objective of protecting the interests of energy consumers. The Secretary of State may also determine that it is appropriate and in energy consumers’ best interests to introduce further licensable activities in support of smart metering by 2023.

As detailed in our delegated powers memorandum, the smart metering programme continues to develop policy in a number of discrete areas, including overseeing the development of technical solutions delivering smart benefits to the small number of premises which are currently not expected to be served by the smart meter communications network as to do so would be disproportionately expensive. This is typically due to location and surroundings. For example, this can affect premises in highly built-up areas with many tall buildings as well as remote or mountainous areas.

One of the tools we may wish to use to deliver the policy is requiring activity to be licensed. For example, it might be considered appropriate to create a licensable activity that relates to arranging the establishment of communications to these properties. Should we introduce a new licensable activity here that is subsequently found no longer to be justified or needed, we would need to have retained until 1 November 2023 the ability swiftly to remove that licensable activity.

As the noble Lord will be aware, we have used the affirmative resolution procedure. We have also referred it to the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee. It did not raise any issues with it. Further—I shall read this out because it is not often that one gets praise of this sort—the memorandum from the committee, in the part that I have highlighted, states:

“There is nothing in this Bill we would wish to draw to the attention of the House. We do, however, wish to commend the helpful and well-drafted memorandum about the delegated powers in the Bill, provided by the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy”.


We do not often get praise, so I think that it is worth repeating it on this occasion to make sure that it is properly on the record. Obviously, it was already on the record, as it was in the committee’s 17th report—but I am grateful for the opportunity to repeat it.

Amendment 4 is the big amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, and principally supported by the noble Baroness, Lady Featherstone, and the noble Lord, Lord Teverson. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, for what he said about it. He talked about there being confusion on a number of points, which I hope I can help deal with. He also spoke about moving from rollout by suppliers to rollout by DNOs, as happens in another country. I suggest to him that making such a change might bring more confusion and chaos than absolutely necessary. Let us first deal with the amendment and no doubt we can talk about that later.

The amendment would task Ofgem with consulting stakeholders and publishing a national plan for smart meters by 31 December 2018. It would then require the Secretary of State to specify the final version of such a plan in regulations. The large-scale rollout of smart meters across Great Britain by 2020 is a substantial technical, logistical and organisational challenge. As we have made clear, meeting that challenge depends on collective and co-ordinated delivery. I think that that programme should be led by the Government, who set the policy and regulatory framework for the realisation of the benefits. The rollout is delivered by energy suppliers, networks and others. Ofgem’s role is to make sure that consumers remain protected during the rollout, to monitor energy suppliers’ compliance with their obligations and potentially to enforce against any non-compliance. The Government have provided strong leadership and established governance frameworks, with clear roles and responsibilities, across all these parties. Under this leadership, the smart metering programme has already made substantial progress.

Given the scale of the challenge, I understand and welcome the noble Lord’s appetite for information and reassurance on progress. I remind him of the commitments that the Government made earlier in the passage of the Bill—namely, that we will publish an annual report on the progress of the smart metering implementation programme as well as an updated cost-benefit analysis in 2019, to reflect the state of play after the transition from SMETS 1 to SMETS 2 meters has taken effect.

In that context, it is not clear what the additional value of a national plan of the type proposed by the noble Lord would be. The purpose seems to be to task Ofgem with the oversight of smart metering implementation and to reduce the Government’s role. Such a change in approach would simply divert attention and resources from the rollout delivery and associated consumer benefits. The Government are rightly accountable for safeguarding the benefits of smart metering. The new clause would duplicate existing efforts to deliver an efficient rollout and would put an undue burden on Ofgem. Furthermore, requiring the Secretary of State to specify the final version of the national plan in regulations would limit his ability to use the Section 88 power, of which the noble Lord will be aware, to modify the smart metering framework in future. The purpose of the Bill is to enable the Government to respond to the operational realities of the rollout and to adjust the monitoring framework as may be required. The new clause would undermine that intent.

In summary, a high-level plan for the rollout of smart meters was set by the Government in their 2011 prospectus document, which establishes the framework for the rollout.

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[Baroness Maddock]

I made two points about gas. When it is turned off, I certainly do not expect them to allow things that are unsafe. My point was that there is no provision for somebody in poor circumstances—say they are elderly and they have a smart meter put in and it is the middle of winter and they cannot use their boiler—to get a new boiler. I think the Government need to look at this. It is a very small point but there will be several people affected by it.

The Minister has explained how the process works at the moment and how the code of conduct works and how it can be amended. Can he tell us how it has been amended as the process has gone along?

[Lord Henley]

I would prefer to write to the noble Baroness regarding any amendments that have taken place. I, like others involved in this, but not all, am relatively new to the subject—but it has been going for some time, so I imagine that amendments have been taking place.

I think the noble Baroness suggested earlier—just in terms of the travails on the telephone—a degree of aggression.

[Baroness Maddock]

It was the lack of understanding of the person who was trying to persuade to have a meter of how it worked and what the options were and whether they were interoperable.

[Lord Henley]

If the operator could not cope with the noble Baroness, obviously they probably need further training. I think that is probably a matter for that particular supplier. There is guidance for them and they should take every opportunity to treat all domestic customers fairly and to be as transparent and accurate as possible in their communications. I hope that they will continue to do so. I note what the noble Baroness said.

I hope I have dealt with the three amendments in sufficient detail and I hope that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw Amendment 3.

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[Lord Henley]

My Lords, £1 billion here, £1 billion there and pretty soon we are talking real money. I will deal with the amendments in the order they came: that is, Amendments 5, 7, 12 and 13. Amendments 12 and 13 go together. Actually, all three go together, but there was some confusion.

Starting with Amendment 5, which was tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Maddock, on energy efficiency and fuel poverty, I ought to say in passing that I very much support the spirit behind these amendments but I am concerned that they could undermine the efficient delivery of the rollout and could lead to unintended consequences and costs for consumers. But I will deal with the amendments one by one, starting with Amendment 5.

One of the main objectives of the smart meter rollout in Great Britain—it does not apply to Northern Ireland—is to put consumers in control of their energy use so that they become more informed and efficient, and save themselves money. Smart metering will reduce the costs for prepayment customers and enable remote topping-up, meaning that some of Britain’s hardest-pressed energy consumers will have access to more competitive deals and more convenience in paying for their energy. I was grateful for what the noble Baroness said about people with prepayment meters and the price cap. We will get on to the price cap for others more generally, but it is already in existence for people with prepayment meters and I think that it has been working with some success.

If I heard her aright, the noble Baroness said that she had heard that SMETS 2 meters posed a problem for some prepayment customers. We believe that SMETS 1 meters provide significant smart functionality to consumers, but SMETS 2 will provide them with additional benefits and will allow consumers always to retain smart functionality when they switch suppliers. SMETS 2 meters will also allow consumers, if they choose, to share data with third parties, and those third parties may be able to offer, for example, tailored energy-efficiency advice, which could be of use to certain customers.

Amendment 5 would introduce a new clause requiring the Secretary of State to commission a review to consider how the extended use of powers would impact energy use in the United Kingdom, with a particular focus on the impact on fuel poverty and energy efficiency.

With in-home displays offered to households as part of the installation, low-credit alerts are more visible, giving consumers an early warning. The ability for consumers to set a budget and to see exactly how much they are using, in pounds and pence, is giving prepayment consumers control over their energy use and contributing to greater levels of satisfaction among prepayment consumers. Certainly, the research that we have done shows that 84% of smart prepayment customers are satisfied with their smart meters and 88% are likely to recommend them. Government research shows that eight out of 10 would recommend them to family or friends, and 82% of people with a smart meter have taken at least one step to reduce their energy use. British Gas is reporting that its dual fuel customers with smart meters are making sustained 4% annual energy savings.

To some extent, that brings me on to the question about accessibility of meters raised by the noble Baroness. As she is well aware, the accessibility of existing meters can be pretty difficult, as I discovered in London the other day as I lay down on the floor trying to read a meter. I realised that I did not have my reading glasses with me but then realised that reading glasses would not help as I was wearing my contact lenses. It is a minor problem for someone in a reasonably fit state, but we accept that reading meters can be difficult for certain people, depending on where the meters are put.

The technical specifications for IHDs require them to be designed to enable the information on them to be easily accessed and presented in a form that is clear and easy to understand, including by consumers with impaired sight, memory, learning ability or dexterity. Energy suppliers, led by Energy UK, have been working together to develop a fully accessible IHD, and we expect that device to be available shortly. If it can be made available to those who have problems, the noble Baroness and I will also find it a great deal easier.

[Baroness Maddock]

The thing that surprises me—and I have not really had an answer to it—is why, when the Government planned the programme, it was not part of the plan that everybody with a smart meter should have an in-home display. It would be an obvious enhancement and would not be difficult. I do not know why it was not thought that this should be insisted on from the beginning.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Henley]

I am afraid I do not recognise what the noble Lord has offered. I suggest that we continue discussions on this. What the noble Lord is putting to me is not what has been put in front of me in other places. As I said, we will continue to monitor matters and to provide information. That will be sufficient to deal with the amendments. If the noble Lord would like to continue to make these strange allegations about what is happening, we can continue to do that in the discussions that I offered when dealing with the first amendment.

[Baroness Maddock]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for his full response to me on Amendment 5. I am still not totally convinced that the Government always look very carefully at how their different policies interact. I am grateful that he has asked for extra information about the photovoltaics. It was new to me and I will come back to him with a bit more detail. Let us hope that it is just a one-off—that the supplier was just not very interested in doing this particular person’s house and that there is nothing more to it than that. I was quite shocked: lots of people have photovoltaics and if that really was the case we really need to do something about it. As I said, it was a probing amendment to try to open up discussion on these issues that I am concerned about. At this stage, I beg leave to withdraw Amendment 5.

Energy: Home Battery Storage

Debate between Baroness Maddock and Lord Henley

Monday 4th December 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, as I said in my answer to the previous question, the cost of lithium-ion batteries has come down considerably—by 50%. Batteries are still expensive but it is in the interests of some consumers to buy them to even out their use of electricity and make savings. Obviously, any advice that they can get, which was partly behind the Government and Ofgem’s smart systems flexibility plan, would be of use to those consumers.

[Baroness Maddock (LD)]

My Lords, the more smart meters are installed in our homes, the more potential there will be for battery storage. Will the Minister assure us that the promise the Government made of 26,000 smart meters in our homes before 2020 will really happen?

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, we are on track for that. As the noble Baroness will be aware, legislation dealing with this is coming forward. I hope we will get there; I see no reason why not.