Electricity and Gas (Energy Company Obligation) (Amendment) Order 2017
Debate between Baroness Maddock and Lord O'Neill of Clackmannan(7 years, 1 month ago)
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Lord O'Neill of Clackmannan (Lab)
My Lords, this order is something of a curate’s egg. There are a number of aspects that one would be quite happy with were it not for the fact that one player in this whole scheme is absent: the Government. They are changing some of the regulations and arrangements but they are providing no money themselves, unlike the Administrations in Belfast, Cardiff or Edinburgh. Therefore, we have to say in the first instance, on the objective of moving the starting time by six months, from 12 to 18 months, if we are to get a better scheme, that might be very well. However, it is a delay, in fact from 2015, when the opportunity to introduce an improved scheme first arose.
It begs the question: why is there a delay? If it is because the Government are wrestling with the complexity of it, I submit that they have had plenty of time to do that. I know from the briefing I received from National Energy Action—of which I happen to be the honorary president, and therefore declare a limited, non-pecuniary interest—that this estimable charity has somewhat mixed feelings, which reflect my own. The Government seem to be doing a little bit with one hand, and then taking it away with the other. When we see the reduction in boiler replacement, it is not because the job is nearly ending—that we have completed the replacement of inefficient boilers—but simply because the Government take the view that it costs too much.
There is also the fact that if you want to make households more conscious of the benefits of energy efficiency, a dramatic change such as the replacement or introduction of a boiler is of critical significance in this change of thought process. We know that in many respects the households that are most disadvantaged are those which have so many problems that trying to be energy efficient is very much a kind of finger-in-the-dyke operation, and they need assistance. Very often, when we are able to secure the replacement boilers, we get a change of step and a greater willingness to help.
It is also fair to say that we have insufficient sums to meet even the most modest of home improvements. We are told by a number of bodies—including, for example, the Committee on Fuel Poverty, the Committee on Climate Change, and Policy Exchange—that even to meet the very modest target of getting households to EPC E level by 2020 will require £1.9 billion. To get households to EPC D level by 2025 will cost £5.6 billion. To get all households up to EPC C level by 2030 will require £12.3 billion. These are large sums. However, what the Minister is talking about seems to be nowhere near what is required to reach these households. Indeed, it has been suggested that a baby born today into inadequate housing would probably be about 75 before their home was properly heated.
A number of the changes are sensible and not unwelcome. However, the Government cannot get away with the platitudinous nonsense the Minister spoke at the beginning of his speech when he quoted the Prime Minister. If the Prime Minister really wants to help hard-working families and do something about this kind of household, the Government will have to use central taxation as a mechanism to do it. It is not enough just to express pious hopes and, on occasion, go for cheaper options. That seems to be at least part of the thinking behind a number of the changes in this measure.
Therefore, as I say, this is a curate’s egg. This Committee does not have the opportunity to overturn or amend it. I know that it has been the subject of fairly wide consultation but I do not think that all the organisations that were consulted would necessarily embrace everything in the order. Therefore, as I say, my welcome of it is highly qualified and I am somewhat disappointed. An opportunity has been missed here—and not because the Government have rushed into this. They have had since 2015 to get something done and the best that they can come up with is this rather feeble list of changes and a further six-month delay in bringing about many measures that would be regarded as improvements. We cannot take any consolation as some of the less desirable aspects of this measure will continue for some time.
As I say, I think that this is a missed opportunity for the Minister. He and I are old friends from Select Committee days in the Commons. I am trying to chastise him as gently as I can as I know that he is new to the job and I expect that his influence over the drafting of this order was probably minimal. However, I would like to think that in the months and years that he may still be in the job he will be able to come up with something better before too long.
Baroness Maddock (LD)
My Lords, something is better than nothing. We on these Benches, at least, welcome this measure, although there are many “buts”. There is no doubt that improving the quality of existing homes can play a very important part in increasing warmth and comfort and help to make fuel bills far more affordable, particularly for vulnerable occupants. However—I think the Minister recognises this—it is also a highly cost-effective way of reducing carbon emissions and saving energy. In addition, ambitious energy efficiency savings programmes can capture substantial macroeconomic benefits.
I remember taking through the House of Commons a Private Member’s Bill that became the Home Energy Conservation Act 1995, and saying that the job creation potential in making homes energy efficient was enormous. I regret that some 20-plus years later, we are still grappling with this issue and people are still living in fuel poverty. As the noble Lord said, people born into fuel poverty today will probably still be in fuel poverty at the end of their lives. That is very sad.
Energy Bill
Debate between Baroness Maddock and Lord O'Neill of Clackmannan
Baroness Maddock (LD)
My Lords, I have great sympathy for the words spoken by the noble Lord. He and I and one or two others in this House have campaigned on fuel poverty for a number of years, although he will remember that, when as a Minister he wrote his draft fuel poverty strategy, he hoped to eradicate it by 2010. That indicates what a difficult issue this is. I am grateful to the Government for, after cross-party lobbying, putting into the Bill a strategy for fuel poverty. I am very pleased about that.
This is very pertinent at the moment. I do not know if noble Lords noticed that as the storm went through the temperature dropped. I only just made it in on my train today. As I walked across, I could feel the temperature dropping. Elderly people particularly are getting very worried about how they will pay their fuel bills this winter. We know but many do not understand that if you are older and have heart problems, problems with blood circulation and so on, you do not need to get very cold for it to have a serious effect.
I have campaigned on this issue for as many years as I care to think about. In my 20s, I lived in Stockholm in Sweden where pensioners did not die in wintertime because they were too cold. They did not have arthritis. They lived in properly heated houses. Here we are in 2013 and we have still not managed to achieve that. I recognise that it is a very difficult problem but I hope that my noble friend can at least give us some warm words in response to the noble Lord, Lord Whitty. Many noble Lords care passionately about this issue. It is time, as one of the richest nations in the world, that we dealt with it.
Lord O'Neill of Clackmannan
My Lords, I start by declaring an interest: I am a vice-president of National Energy Action and the president of Energy Action Scotland. The Government have made some moves on this issue in the course of the Bill’s passage, but it would help if they would add to the list of objectives they have set themselves the one concerning fuel poverty mentioned in this amendment tonight. That would be a signal that this is not an issue of party conflict, and indeed that the Government have recognised that one of the deficiencies in the Bill is that insufficient attention was initially given to fuel poverty.
Now that we have had recognition, we can probably argue about the niceties when the appropriate time comes. We are all in favour of the earliest possible elimination of fuel poverty. It is not just about prices. It is about handling our grossly inadequate housing stock. Before too long we may well have to look afresh at the Green Deal that at the moment has, as far as I know, attracted something like 57 successful completions—one for every one of Heinz’s varieties; that is perhaps all that one could say about the proposal. People may find the money and find it attractive to accept the Green Deal at the 7.5% interest that is being charged, but I very much doubt it.
More has to be done on this. It would be helpful to have a clear indication that an opportunity is available with this amendment to put in the Bill, as one of the overarching targets of the Government’s energy policy, that we should as a high priority be able to eliminate fuel poverty. If we all agree on it, why is it not there? It is not a particularly controversial amendment. It is one that would enhance the credibility of the Bill and make easier the passage of future elements in it, which I am sure the Minister is looking forward to bringing before this House.
Baroness Verma
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, for his amendment and all noble Lords who have taken part in this short but important debate. It gives me an opportunity to lay out the Government’s objectives for reform throughout the development of the EMR proposals. These objectives have been set out in the published documents, from our White Paper in July 2011 and within Clause 5, to reflect our aims of reform. This does not mean that other aims, such as minimising fuel poverty, are not important. I agree with noble Lords that this area is incredibly important to us all. As outlined in Clause 5(2)(d), the Secretary of State will have regard to the likely cost of electricity to consumers. This means all consumers, including the fuel poor.
Our analysis suggests that, as a result of EMR, household electricity bills will be on average around 9%, or £63, lower per year over the period 2016 to 2030, relative to what they would have been if decarbonisation were achieved through existing policy instruments. The impact of EMR will be to reduce fuel poverty compared to what it would have been without those policies in place.
However, we should not be complacent. With or without EMR, electricity prices are likely to increase over time due to rising fossil fuel prices and the rising cost of carbon. This is why we have in place a strong package of measures to support low-income and vulnerable households with their energy costs. The energy company obligation ensures that help goes to low-income and vulnerable households to enable them to heat their homes more affordably on a long-term basis. Through the affordable warmth and carbon-saving communities obligations, we anticipate that support should reach around 230,000 low-income households each year. In addition, this winter around 2 million households will get help under the warm home discount scheme, including over 1 million of the poorest pensioners, who will receive £135 off their electricity bill.
In the last financial year, winter fuel payments helped over 12.5 million older people in over 9 million households with their fuel bills, providing between £100 and £300 tax-free to help pay for heating bills. During the same period, 5.8 million cold weather payments were made, targeted at those households that are most vulnerable to the cold. This Government are committed to helping the fuel poor, now and in the future. That is why earlier this year I proposed amendments to the Warm Homes and Energy Conservation Act, to put in place a new, rigorous and flexible framework for measuring the Government’s progress in tackling fuel poverty in England. As we move forward with ensuring a safe low-carbon future we must be absolutely sure that we do not leave the fuel poor behind.
The noble Lord, Lord Whitty, mentioned the Prime Minister’s announcements last week on green taxes and the review of their impact on the fuel poor. The Government are looking at how to get people’s energy bills as low as possible to help the very families to which the noble Lord refers. We are already increasing competition by bringing new players into the market to offer consumers real choice. The most vulnerable are getting direct help with their bills this winter. We will continue this work to make sure that consumers get a better deal. No one is talking about changing support for large-scale renewables or feed-in tariffs. We want to make sure that those who need help get help. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, finds my explanation reassuring and on that basis will withdraw his amendment.
Energy Bill
Debate between Baroness Maddock and Lord O'Neill of Clackmannan(10 years, 10 months ago)
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Lord O'Neill of Clackmannan
My Lords, I congratulate my noble friend on taking us through this tortuous issue with great clarity. I declare an interest as one of the vice-presidents of National Energy Action, as is, I think, the noble Baroness.
Lord O'Neill of Clackmannan
Given the large sums involved and our positions as members of that body, we must do that. There are various elements involved in fuel poverty: the condition of the house, the circumstances of the individual householder and the nature and size of the energy tariffs that the individual has to pay. Very often, people in fuel poverty are in comprehensively complicated social circumstances and the complexity of the tariff system just adds to their confusion. Quite often, they do not know what they are paying for. Quite often, they do not understand the bills. Invariably, they are unable to make full payment. If they are on the payment meter system—as has already been said—they pay rather more for the privilege of paying as they go but that normally enables them to self-disconnect, in the sense that if they cannot afford to pay they do not use electricity.
One of the statistics that is never given proper examination in arguments about privatisation is that we say there are not the disconnections that there were under public ownership. That is because nowadays people self-disconnect. There was a time when, certainly as a young Member of Parliament, I had a succession of cases where I would intervene with the nationalised industry, the utility, to ensure that the gas or electricity was restored and some kind of proper payment system introduced. In some respects, you might say that for a Member of Parliament that is a chore they no longer need to carry out but it was certainly one that enabled people to come to terms, at least for a period, with the straitened circumstances of fuel poverty. What we have to do here, regardless of the off-the-cuff remark from the Prime Minister, which I am sure he regrets having made—not because he did not believe in it but because of the complexity of the issue; this is a classic case of unintended consequences—is to take advantage of the legislation to make the tariff system for electricity intelligible, simple and, I hope, more affordable. My noble friend has addressed a number of the challenges that that remark presents to us.
We know that in some respects there has been a major shift. There has been the publication of a report, which I confess I have yet to read, and amendments, in which we will all take great interest. It is fair to say that the Hills report was a wee bit of a curate’s egg, but there are always problems with the oversimplistic definition of the 10% rule. Perhaps we can get a change in the definition that enables us to target and prioritise. I know that those are the kind of words that people like to use in these circumstances. In the previous debate, we discussed having an annual report on energy. We will be looking very carefully, maybe not next year but the year after next, when a number of these amendments will have kicked in.
It is important that we have a debate like this and that we get from the Minister a clear picture of the Government’s thinking in relation to tariffs. The remedies for fuel poverty in a broader sense will be debated later, but people know well enough that serious near-criminal activities have been undertaken by the oligopolies. People say that the market works, but it has not worked; it has been abused consistently and methodically by cynical people who at the end of the day pay the fines in the certain knowledge that we as consumers then have to make our contribution to the compensation of the poor shareholders, who have been happy to have these chancers running these businesses. That is where we are coming from on this; a group of cynical manipulators of the tariff system have made the plight of disadvantaged people even more disagreeable. The rest of us can probably say, “It serves us right—we should be looking after ourselves”. However, a lot of vulnerable people have not been given any protection by the market, and we are now looking to the Minister and her response to this debate to tell us how we are going to get tariffs that people can understand and perhaps pay a little more easily than they have been able to in the past.
Energy Bill
Debate between Baroness Maddock and Lord O'Neill of Clackmannan
Baroness Maddock
My Lords, this amendment is in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Teverson. I, too, welcome this decarbonisation section of the Bill. I strongly support the comments of my noble friend Lord Stephen. I also need to declare interests, as I did at Second Reading. I am president of the microgeneration group of the Micropower Council. I am also the vice-president of National Energy Action. In my Second Reading speech I mentioned the fact that we deal with fuel poverty, and that this was one of the issues I wished to deal with during this Bill: hence the amendment.
The other amendment that deals with this is Amendment 23. Both the noble Baroness and myself, in moving these amendments, have tried to find somewhere in the Bill where we can hang fuel poverty, so that we can get the Minister to show some recognition that it will affect people in fuel poverty and that we still need to do things to address that.
In this section, Clause 2 sets out the matters that must be taken into account in setting or amending a decarbonisation target range. Clause 2(2)(e) refers to social circumstances, in particular the likely impact on fuel poverty. My amendment seeks to link this to the aims of the Warm Homes and Energy Conservation Act 2000. The purpose of the amendment is to ensure that there is recognition of the scale of the impacts of the Bill on fuel-poor households, both now and in future Parliaments, and to facilitate the introduction of suitable, ambitious, mitigating policies.
I have probably strayed slightly into another section of the Bill, but it is difficult not to do so on this issue. Electricity market reform and the introduction of the carbon floor price will impose new and as yet unknown costs on low-income and vulnerable households. The noble Lords, Lord Deben and Lord Jenkin, in their earlier comments, tried to put some figures on what they thought might happen to bills as a result of some of the measures here, but we can only estimate what the effects will be. The Warm Front programme, which provided public funding for heating and insulation measures, to help fuel-poor households, came to an end in March this year, and its replacement, the warm home discount, is paid for by all energy consumers, including low-income households, some of which cannot benefit from the scheme. Interestingly, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland have continued, and in some cases expanded, their tax-funded energy schemes to help fuel-poor households.
With help for fuel-poor households falling, and the proposals in the Bill and elsewhere, there is little sign of bills reducing between now and 2016, the date by which fuel poverty should have been eradicated as far as is reasonably practicable. The consumer will almost certainly pay more in the short to medium term, but the Government are committed to meeting other relevant binding commitments, in particular the current aims of the Warm Homes and Energy Conservation Act 2000.
This is really a probing amendment to see where the Government think they can assist those in fuel poverty while at the same time introducing the measures in the Bill. I hope that the Minister will acknowledge the impact of proposals in this Bill on low-income and vulnerable households, and will indicate how some of the effects can be mitigated, particularly by prioritising the energy efficiency standards of fuel-poor households, and of course by keeping the Bill in line with other legislative commitments. I hope that the Minister will recognise that the Committee on Climate Change highlighted this need just last week in its fifth progress report to government.
This is a short intervention that I hope will give the Minister the opportunity to tell us how the Government view vulnerable customers, and how this Bill will affect people in fuel poverty. It may be that we will look rather more carefully at this on Report, depending on what the Minister has to say in reply. I beg to move.
Lord O'Neill of Clackmannan
I rise to support my fellow vice-president of National Energy Action. I should perhaps have mentioned that before, because I touched on fuel poverty in a previous intervention and did not declare my interest.
It is important that this issue is brought to the attention of Ministers at this stage, because I think that it is fair to say that the Green Deal has not been a great success so far. It may well be transformed over the summer, but, as far as improving the quality of energy-inefficient households is concerned, it has yet to make the impact that some of us were not sure about but others had perhaps undue faith in. None the less, it is at the moment the only government-led initiative on energy efficiency and it ought to have an impact on those households where the quality of the fabric of the house is a major contributor to what we call fuel poverty. Fuel poverty is currently defined as households in which more than 10% of the income is accounted for by energy prices. This may be subject to redefinition in the next few months, but, even if the definition were radically changed, I do not think that fuel poverty would disappear before 2016.
Much has quite correctly been made of the fact that all households will be paying for a lot of the green measures being taken. These green measures fall on electricity consumption. At the moment, some 8 million of the 26 million or 27 million households in the United Kingdom do not have gas. That means that, for the purposes of heating, they are dependent in the main either on electricity or on oil. They therefore pay a disproportionate amount of their energy costs in supporting these so-called green measures. We should give notice to the Minister that this will be a recurring theme, because households that are outwith the gas grid are disadvantaged at the moment. Those households are doubly disadvantaged because they have to pay what seems to be a disproportionate amount of money as far as electricity is concerned. This has been mitigated somewhat. At one time, there was an almost poll tax-style arrangement whereby every household paid the same amount; it is now going to be measured on consumption of units of electricity, so that is a slight improvement. However, there is a long way to go on this.
Those of us who are not antagonistic to this legislation—we may be in the Opposition, but we realise that many aspects of it are necessary for a variety of reasons—will nevertheless not look idly or sympathetically at it if it fails to address a number of glaring examples of bureaucratic mistakes and unintended consequences. We spoke earlier today about the need for investment. There will be a series of leitmotifs at the back of this legislation. One of those will be the disadvantage to which certain types of household are put, through no fault of their own, as a result of having to pay a disproportionate amount of money to fund a lot of the green initiatives involved in this legislation. Sometimes, such disadvantages are a consequence of previous legislation, but we need to keep this at the forefront of our minds.
I realise that, at this stage at least, this is a probing amendment. Aneurin Bevan once said that silent pain evokes no response. We have to remain mindful of the fact that a number of households in this country are suffering a great deal because of energy prices that have been rising, which are likely to rise even more and which, at present, we are not confident will get the kind of mitigation that we had hoped would come from the Green Deal because of the low take-up and the almost total indifference to it of the private landlord. Of all the disadvantaged groups, those in privately rented accommodation seem to get the roughest end of every stick directed at them.
Energy Bill [HL]
Debate between Baroness Maddock and Lord O'Neill of Clackmannan(13 years, 3 months ago)
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Lord O'Neill of Clackmannan
I find this a confusing debate. First, we have an elegant contribution from the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, explaining how there is a failure in the structure of the market and the present pricing arrangements. We then get an endorsement of this from the noble Earl, Lord Cathcart, who, with the greatest respect, is riding one of his hobby-horses. We are all entitled to do that, but half way through the business he changes horses and is not very sure whether he is going one way or the other.
One of the factors in making the Green Deal successful for consumers will be rising gas and electricity prices, because the Green Deal will make the savings that much greater. It will make the savings that much greater that much earlier if the initial block of electricity or gas units consumed is as high as possible; it is then the second tranche from which you may make some savings. That appears to be a recognition of the fact that we anticipate that, certainly for the rest of this decade, energy prices will continue to rise for a variety or reasons—changes in generation, shortage of supply or volatility of supply because of Middle Eastern uncertainties. All these things will, in varying degrees, result in a steady increase. That is one of the attractions—perhaps not the most compelling one—of the Green Deal. The amendment would in many respects undermine the attractive features of the Green Deal.
Equally, the climate change committee has argued that the majority of fuel-poor households have structural deficiencies which require more electricity to be used in keeping the rooms warm. Therefore, the priority must be to get people’s homes improved. The apparent attraction of making the price of the initial tranche lower is complicated by the fact that these people are always going to be the ones who will go into the second tranche to keep their houses warm. There are elements of contradiction in both arguments.
We have mentioned the role of Ofgem as a potential arbiter—a body that could hold the ring. Although Ofgem’s function is in part to protect the consumer, it is also to promote competition. The argument advanced by the proponents of privatisation and subsequent liberalisation was that, after liberalisation, you would have a competitive market in which the players would change the manner in which the old state monopoly had dealt with pricing issues. In fact, as we have seen, while it was apparently in the interests of the state monopoly to behave in a particular way, it is in the interests of these private oligopolies to behave in much the same way, in that they have not radically changed the nature of pricing.
Some of us have sought to introduce arguments about the injustice of the pre-payment meter to many households, although not all, as pre-payment meters suit consumers in a number of households, perhaps because people are there only part-time—the house may be a second home in a rural area, for example. The point that I am getting at is that it was only through the threat of intervention on the part of the last Government that we began to move on this issue. I think that only one company—Scottish and Southern—was prepared to change its pricing structure in relation to pre-payment meters. There may have been others, but that is the one that I remember from the big five or six in this area.
I do not think that Ofgem has the power to do this at the moment and I am not sure that it would want to do it. The argument advanced by the climate change committee is somewhat tentative, but it has some weight. If we are going to try to deal with the question of consumption and price, the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, provided an elegant solution. I respect him for that, but I am not sure whether it is the ideal solution. We have had a reasonable excuse to have a good debate, but I am not sure whether at this stage this is really the best way in which to deal with the problem. It would be preferable if we gave the regulator powers that it ceased to have some time ago to go in and explore this, if not independently to change it. I know that its powers are being reviewed; it certainly does not have the powers to interfere at this stage, as I understand it. But if it was to be given those powers following the government review, that might be a way in which to deal with the matter.
I am not certain that this amendment will achieve what it is trying to do in respect of the poorer households that spend a fair amount of money heating their homes. It is unlikely that we could get a tariff structure to enable all the heating of the poorest people’s homes in the country to be done on the lowest tariff. If we could get that, we would go some way towards alleviating the problems faced by the disadvantaged. Equally, we might well put ourselves in the position of having disproportionately higher prices for the second tranche, which might reach a level that brings additional people into fuel poverty. So we seem to be damned if we do and damned if we do not.
I am a bit confused and I am sure that other noble Lords are as well. It may be that listening to me has made matters worse. If we are to deal with this issue, we really need to deal with it on the basis of far stronger and more comprehensive evidence than we have at the moment. The present system does not work, but I am not sure whether something as flip as this amendment will necessarily come up with the answers that quickly.
Baroness Maddock
My Lords, I support my noble friend in raising an important issue, which has led to rather a long debate. In reply to my noble friend, could the Minister tell us where we are in getting the utility companies to simplify their bills and make them clearer? If the Green Deal is going to work and people are going to understand where their energy savings are, the bills need to be better. In the past, you might try to work out the payback on new technology. We had a condensing boiler and it was really complicated to look back over a year—we had changed suppliers at the time—to work out what we were saving. I think that in the end I did work it out and we had saved at least a quarter of the gas in a year with the condensing boiler, but it was no mean feat. Given that the Green Deal depends on people understanding such things and that we know that we will not all have smart meters in the near future, it would be helpful if the Minister could tell us a little about that.
I support my noble friend Lord Cathcart on what we need to do to help those in fuel poverty, but I cannot agree with him on trying to do it on council tax bands. The banding of your house does not relate to your ability to pay the council tax or any other bill. That is why I have been so against it for so many years. However, I support him in his aim to do something about fuel poverty. I have probably declared my interest before but, like the noble Lord, Lord O’Neill, I am involved with National Energy Action, which is a charity trying to do something about the fuel poor. We have been doing it for over 25 years now.
Energy Bill [HL]
Debate between Baroness Maddock and Lord O'Neill of Clackmannan(13 years, 3 months ago)
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Baroness Maddock
An amendment of mine is in this group. I support what has been said about the importance of looking at how successful things are and looking year-on-year at figures. Mine is a more general measure. Indeed, I had placed it much further on in the Bill, but it was obviously seem to be convenient to debate it at this time; I do not mind that. Mine is about the assessment of the costs and benefits of energy saving, as opposed to those of energy generation.
Energy saving is universally acknowledged on all political sides to be the cheapest and cleanest way to achieve our energy policy objectives. That view is behind the Green Deal. As I understand it, an assessment of the costs and benefits of investment in energy generation capacity compared to the costs and benefits of demand-reduction policies has never been carried out. As noble Lords have said, I have been involved in the area for a number of years and have worked closely with the Association for the Conservation of Energy. I therefore know that it has pursued the issue but has never received a satisfactory answer. Over the years, as I have looked at, sat through and taken part in all sorts of legislation—a lot of it reforming legislation—I have learnt that reviewing and taking note of what has happened before moving on to the next piece of legislation is something that Governments seem to be bad at, particularly in the area of energy efficiency.
That is important when you have a lot of sceptics around and people argue about what is the best way to do things. The European Climate Foundation reports that emissions from buildings can be reduced by 95 per cent. It breaks it up into a 40 per cent as a result of reduced demand and 45 per cent as a result of the electrification of heating. Its predictions of energy efficiency mean that overall electricity demand increases only by about 40 per cent with full electrification of heating and, largely, of transport. That is in stark contrast to DECC figures, which predict a doubling, and possibly a tripling, of UK electricity demand. It is therefore important, when debating an Energy Bill, to consider that.
I hope that I can get a positive response from the Minister that he will take the issue seriously. I am not saying that the amendment has to be in the Bill in this form, but it is an important issue—particularly now that we are moving ahead with the scheme.
Lord O'Neill of Clackmannan
I support the amendment. We have had repeated statements from the Minister to the effect that, in many ways, the Green Deal will be market-driven, that there is little public funding but that there is a great deal of public provision, in the sense that the Bill will mark the paving of the way for the Green Deal. I think that, therefore, it is important that there is a degree of public reporting of what we are trying to do so that we can measure its effectiveness, whether in environmental terms or the penetration—which parts of the country respond better. We would anticipate that continuing for many years, so it would be desirable for us to have proper indications of take-up rates, the environmental impact and, in particular, who is getting it and where they stay. While we are not asking for a street-by-street report, it would be useful on a regional basis or a local authority basis to get an indication of what is happening. It might even be useful to see the take-up within the devolved Administrations and see whether they are playing their part alongside the Whitehall-driven part of the exercise.
I take the point that the first line of defence of most Ministers, when faced with amendments which seem to be rather good in intent, is that the wording is wrong, or it is not properly drafted. That is why the ministries have masses of civil servants; not necessarily to do the drafting themselves but to instruct those who do it to do so. Therefore, before we get any feeble excuse that it is not properly worded, many of us would be very happy if the Government were prepared to take the amendment away, look at it in some shape or form, and see whether we can achieve that. As we have said in respect of so many aspects of this Bill, while it is very ambitious and wide-ranging, it is not rocket science. This information will be held somewhere. It is just a question of making sure that we can get it from that somewhere into the public domain so that on a draughty Friday morning we can have one and a half hours of debate on it in order to subject the whole proposal to some kind of public scrutiny and public accountability. While we might not be spending much public money on this, we are going to be investing a great deal of, I think, Westminster prestige. There is not a lot of that going about at the moment, but what is there, if it is to be effective in this instance, ought to be reported. If it is not as effective as it should be, we ought to be doing something about it, not on the basis of prejudice but on the basis of hard information, which I think a report of this nature would provide.
Baroness Maddock
My Lords, I suggest that, if we were not repealing the Home Energy Conservation Act, it is precisely under that Act that the figures could be got together by local authorities.