Employment Rights Bill

Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall Excerpts

Committee stage
Thursday 5th June 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hendy (Lab)]

My Lords, I added my name to this amendment, and the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, and the noble Lord, Lord Freyberg, have said everything that I wanted to say. I just want to add that it has been a pleasure working with them and with my noble friend Lady McIntosh to endeavour to understand the nature of this dispute. It occurs to me, in the light of what we have been discussing this afternoon, that a good dose of collective bargaining and negotiation might come to the assistance of the parties.

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab)]

My Lords, I had not expected to speak at any point during this Bill, and I will do so now only very briefly to express my thanks to the noble Earl and his colleagues for praying my name in aid in relation to this amendment. I really just want to say that I may be the only person in the House—and I am certainly, I think, the only person in this Chamber—for whom a casting directory was the bible of my life for many decades. Therefore, I know exactly how important it is to performers that there should be a trusted published work of some kind to which they can refer their information which can then be the source of potential employment through the work of casting directors and other industry professionals.

I just say to the Minister, when she comes to consider this amendment—which, by the way, I do support, and I have nothing to add or anything I wish to contradict in what has been said so far—that it is important to recognise that this is an extremely delicate ecosystem in which there are many, many people who need to avail themselves, and have done over decades, as we have been told, of the kind of service that a casting director and a casting directory provide. Frankly, for most of all of our lives, it has been Spotlight, but it could be others. The people who need to avail themselves of that service are many in number, and the people who need to use it in order to find out about those people are much fewer in number—mostly casting directors. It is very important that they have a trusted source, that performers can rely on their information being carefully curated, looked after and protected in the way that the noble Earl and the noble Lord, Lord Freyberg, have already outlined, but that we do not disturb the particular delicate relationship between those two aspects of the way that the business works. While I am not in favour of exceptionalism on the whole, I think we do have to understand that this industry operates not always perfectly but certainly in an unusual kind of way, and it is necessary that it continue to do so with the right protections in place.

[Lord Hunt of Wirral (Con)]

My Lords, we are very grateful to the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, the noble Lords, Lord Freyberg and Lord Hendy, and the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh of Hudnall, for bringing this very important subject to the attention of this Committee. All sectors of the economy, including the creative industries, deserve fair and proportionate attention in the development and review of employment law, particularly when, as the noble Earl pointed out, the workplace is changing so fast and at such speed.

As the noble Earl reminded us, we need a framework which strikes the right balance. We are all grateful to him for not commenting in any detail about an ongoing dispute, which we will all carefully avoid mentioning any more, although we all agree we must keep a watching brief on what is happening as regards that particular instance.

However, as we consider wider reforms to employment rights and protections, we must ensure that we are not unintentionally leaving out those in less conventional work arrangements. Performers and others working in the creative industries often operate outside the normal employer and employee model. They frequently rely, as we have heard, on casting directories and digital platforms to access work—platforms that are increasingly central as to how creative labour is bought and sold, and have been for a number of years. Yet this part of the labour market is rarely the focus of legislative scrutiny. That must change.

I hope we are all agreed that we cannot claim to be modernising employment law if we ignore how it interacts with one of the fastest growing and culturally significant sectors of our economy. This amendment does not, of course, call for regulation but for understanding. A review will help us grasp better whether existing protections are functioning as they should, and whether any further action is needed to ensure fairness and transparency in the systems on which performers so clearly depend. I look forward to hearing from the Minister as to how he would like to respond to what is a fast-changing situation.

Data (Use and Access) Bill [HL]

Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 10th December 2024 Grand Committee

Relevant documents: 3rd Report from the Constitution Committee and 9th Report from the Delegated Powers Committee. Scottish, Welsh and Northern Ireland Legislative Consent sought.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall) (Lab)]

My Lords, I remind the Committee that if there is a Division in the Chamber, the Committee will adjourn for 10 minutes from the sound of the Division Bells.

Clause 67: Meaning of research and statistical purposes

Amendment 59

Moved by

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Freyberg (CB)]

My Lords, I have tabled Amendment 60 to add to our discussion and establish some further clarity from the Minister on the impact of widening the scope of the interpretation of scientific research to include commercial and private activities. I thank her for her letter of 27 November to all noble Lords who spoke at Second Reading, a copy of which was placed in the Lords Library; it provides some reassurance that scientific research activities must still pass a reasonableness test. However, I move this probing amendment out of concern that the change in definition may have unintended consequences for copyright law. It is vital that we do not just look at this Bill in isolation but consider the wider impact that changing definitions and interpretations will have on other aspects of legislation.

Research activities are identified under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988. Some researchers require access to and reproduction of data and copyright-protected material for research purposes. Under Section 29A, researchers can avail themselves of an exemption from copyright which allows data mining and analysis of copyright-protected works for non-commercial research only, without permission from the copyright holder. The UK copyright framework is popularly known as the “gold standard” internationally, as it carefully balances the rights of copyright holders with the need for certain uses to take place, such as non-commercial research, educational uses and those that protect free speech. That balance is fragile, and we must be very careful not to disrupt it unintentionally.

The previous Government sought to widen Section 29A of the Act by allowing text and data mining of copyright-protected works for commercial purposes, but this recommendation was quickly reversed when the Government considered that the decision was made without appropriate evidence. That was a sensible move. The current Government are still due to consult with stakeholders on the exemption to the law, against the backdrop of AI companies using copyright-protected works for training large language models without permission or fair pay. Given the global presence of AI, it is expected that this consultation will consider how the UK policy on copyright works within an international context. Therefore, while the Government are carefully considering this, we must ensure that we do not fast forward to a conclusion before that important work has taken place.

If the Minister can confirm that this definition has no impact on existing copyright law, I will happily withdraw this amendment. However, if there are potential implications on the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, I would urge the Minister to table her own amendment to explicitly preserve the current definition of “scientific research” within that Act. This would ensure that we maintain legal clarity while the broader international considerations are fully examined. I beg to move.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall) (Lab)]

I advise the Committee that, if this amendment is agreed, I cannot call Amendment 61 by reason of pre-emption.

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to take part in the debate on these amendments. I very much support Amendment 60 as introduced. I was delighted to hear the Minister tell the Grand Committee that the Government are coming forward with an AI Bill. I wonder if I might tempt her into sharing a bit more detail with your Lordships on when we might see that Bill or indeed the consultation. Will it be before Santa or sometime after his welcome appearance later this month?

We touched on a number of areas related to Amendment 65A in the previous group. This demonstrates the importance of and concern about Clause 67, as so many amendments pertain to it. I ask the Minister whether a large language model that comes up with medically significant conclusions but, prior to that, gained a considerable amount of that data from scraping, would be fine within Clause 67 as drafted.

Similarly, there are overriding and broader reuse possibilities from the drafting as set out. Again, as has already been debated, scientific research has a clear meaning in many respects. That clarity very much comes when you add public interest and ethics. Could a model that has taken vast quantities of others’ data without consent and—nodding more towards Amendment 60 —without remuneration and consent still potentially fit within the definition of “scientific research”?

In many ways, we are debating these points around data in the context of scientific research, but we could go to the very nub or essence of the issue. All that noble Lords are asking, in their many eloquent and excellent ways, is whose data is it, to what purpose is it being put and have those data owners been consented, respected and, where appropriate—particularly when it comes to IP and copyrighted data—remunerated? This is an excellent opportunity to expand on the earlier debate on Clause 67. I look forward to the Minister’s response.

Data (Use and Access) Bill [HL]

Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 3rd December 2024 Grand Committee

Relevant documents: 3rd Report from the Constitution Committee and 9th Report from the Delegated Powers Committee. Scottish, Welsh and Northern Ireland Legislative Consent sought.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall) (Lab)]

My Lords, if there is a Division in the Chamber while we are sitting, this Committee will adjourn as soon as the Division bells are rung and resume after 10 minutes.

Clause 1: Customer data and business data

Amendment 1

Moved by

--- Later in debate ---

Amendment 4 not moved.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall) (Lab)]

My Lords, Amendment 5 is in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, whom I do not see with us. Would the noble Lord, Lord Arbuthnot, like to move it on his behalf?

[Lord Arbuthnot of Edrom (Con)]

I am grateful. I do not know about the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, but I wonder whether I might speak to Amendments 34 and 48.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall) (Lab)]

Would the noble Lord be prepared to move Amendment 5 first? He need not necessarily speak to it at any length. That said, the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, is now with us, so the problem is solved.

Amendment 5

Moved by