Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Debate between Baroness Murphy and Lord Deben

Committee stage
Friday 20th March 2026 Lords Chamber

[Lord Deben (Con)]

First, it is said on both sides that they want more money for palliative care, but we now know that palliative care includes assisted dying. I therefore do not accept that the demand for more money for palliative care from those in favour of this Bill is the same thing as those of us who are asking for more money for palliative care so there is a proper choice.

Secondly, the issue is not whether the people of Wales should make the decision on the issue of assisted suicide; the issue is whether decisions made on that subject—which have to be made, because the noble Lord is perfectly right that the legal issue is not devolved—should be made in circumstances in which the application and implementation of those decisions are excluded from the powers that the Welsh Government have. All we are saying here is that those are two different things. I accept entirely what the noble Lord said about the need to make a national decision because of criminal law. However, I am saying that the sponsors of this Bill have got to face that it will ask the Welsh to give up the important control they have in circumstances in which they are already impoverished by the way in which they are supported and where they have particular difficulties with what we call palliative care—not that which the noble Baroness, Lady Murphy, calls palliative care.

[Baroness Murphy (CB)]

My Lords—

[Lord Deben (Con)]

I knew I would do that. I am sorry. I will not refer to the noble Baroness, Lady Murphy.

[Baroness Murphy (CB)]

My Lords, could I make it clear to noble Lords that, in the best legislatures that have implemented similar legislation to this one—and I am thinking of Oregon, the State of Washington and so on—assisted dying is a small part, a very tiny part, of a good palliative care service, and it is best delivered when people who have been caring for somebody through the course of their terminal illness are enabled to make that final choice in their own time when they are ready. That is the point I was making then, and which holds today. I did not say that it was part of palliative care here. It certainly is not at the moment; I would like it to be, but it is not.

The only other point I would like to make is that we have been referring throughout this debate to the Scottish vote. Is it not lovely that the Scots could make a vote? We will not have the opportunity to make a vote in this House due to people going on and on about Wales and matters we have already discussed many times and have already had explained to us. It seems to me that we are just wasting time and we will never get to a vote. I realise that is what some in the House would like, but it is sadly the case that we will never get to the point where we can make a decision in this House about whether we support this legislation or not.

[Lord Deben (Con)]

I am pleased that I gave time for the noble Baroness to talk, given that she thinks all of this is nitpicking. I remind the House that is what she said about the work we are doing. The fact is—

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Debate between Baroness Murphy and Lord Deben

Committee stage
Friday 13th March 2026 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Murphy (CB)]

My Lords, I oppose the view of the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, that we should have a completely separate service. That would target and isolate people who are dying. They will wish to be supported by the people who they have known through the course of their illness, so it is crucial that they be seen and examined by those people and not moved to another place. Yes, there will perhaps be separate people who take on this role, and they should be properly qualified and discuss it with the panel, but it is utterly crucial that, when patients are in the process of dying, we do not separate and reject their carers, who should be part of the palliative care provided to them.

In other countries, assisted dying usually happens as part of a palliative care service. That is how it is done, very successfully, in Oregon and Washington. We should not separate carers who are there to support patients during this process. These little nitpicking changes to the Bill will just make it worse.

[Lord Deben (Con)]

My Lords, I was not going to speak on this, but the last speaker has led me to do so. To describe the care with which this proposal has been put forward as “nitpicking” is frankly unacceptable. The noble Baroness should not have said that. The reason why this has been brought forward is that many of us feel that we should take seriously the pressures on the people who will have to carry out these arrangements, all of whom, either in principle or because of the nature of the Bill, have objections to the Bill, so one tries to find answers.

One of my sadnesses is that the sponsor of the Bill has so far not met the questions put forward by the Royal Colleges or—I say this to the noble Baroness—the committees of this House, which have suggested that the fact that this Bill is so unclear on so many things makes it unacceptable legislation, and that we need to be much more precise and much less vague.

[Baroness Murphy (CB)]

The fact of the matter is that many of the things we are discussing would, in normal medical and social legislation, be contained in codes of practice. They will certainly need to be worked up in great detail for some of these issues to be covered, but it is not necessary to put them in primary legislation. For example, the carting of medication around between a pharmacy and a doctor is in a code of practice that is quite straightforward. I agree that that needs to be done in detail so that it can be monitored and practitioners who are implementing the legislation can do it with confidence. There is no good in putting it in primary legislation that will inevitably change when processes and habits change.

[Lord Deben (Con)]

That may well be the view of the noble Baroness, but it is not the view of the Royal Colleges, and it is not the view of the Select Committees of this House that have looked at this. It is perfectly reasonable for me to suggest that there is an alternative, and I am suggesting an alternative to the noble Baroness. I am still sorry that she should think the word “nitpicking” a suitable phrase to describe people who have spent their lives working on these issues and are trying to find answers to the problems that have clearly been raised by this Bill. Most of us who have views on this subject have been extremely careful in the language that we have used. We have respected the views of those with whom we fundamentally disagree, and we have done so with great care.

I will explain why I think we should consider these amendments very carefully. I am not expert enough to say that this or that bit is the right answer to this, but this is precisely the kind of information that ought to be in the Bill, but which is not. These are the answers that most people who are expert in this matter, and have given evidence to the various Select Committees, have asked for. This should not have been needed as an amendment; it should have been presented by the noble and learned Lord and those who are putting forward this Bill, because we need to know this before we vote on it, not afterwards. That is the problem that the noble Baroness is avoiding. We are being asked to pass a Bill and leave so much to things that will be done in a way we have absolutely no knowledge of.

There is a second reason why it is important to take very seriously these amendments: the relationship between patient and doctor. My one expertise is from having spent nearly 40 years as a Member of Parliament, representing a constituency. It is all very well for those who are perhaps removed from the generality of the population, but one thing you learn in your weekly surgery, and from going around your constituency, is the degree of fear that people have of doctors and hospitals. Anyone who is concerned about this from a pastoral point of view—here is a non-religious element for bishops and ministers of all sorts—knows very well that this is a fundamental fact that you find everywhere. One problem, even for those who are in favour of the principle of the Bill, is that it increases that fear among many people. Therefore, it is hugely important to ensure that there is a service that is clearly separate from and unconnected in any way—except that necessary connection to which the noble Baroness pointed—with the care that has taken place.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Murphy (CB)]

My Lords—

[Lord Deben (Con)]

I will give way in a moment but I wish to finish my sentence—and to being a society that cares for people right to the end of their lives. I know what sort of society I want to live in: one that looks after the most vulnerable at their most vulnerable time. If they are to be given that alternative, it is clearly unconnected with the fundamental moral duty of a society: to look after those who cannot look after themselves.