Pension Schemes Bill

Debate between Baroness Noakes and Baroness Sherlock

Committee stage
Thursday 22nd January 2026 Grand Committee

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords for introducing their amendments. As this is the first time we are going to debate scale, let me first set out why we think scale matters. I hope to persuade the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, with my arguments, but she is shaking her head at me already, so my optimism levels are quite low given that I am on sentence two—I do not think I am in with much of a chance.

Scale is central to the Bill. It adds momentum to existing consolidation activity in the workplace pensions sector and will enable better outcomes for members, as well as supporting delivery of other Bill measures. These scale measures will help to deliver lower investment fees, increased returns and access to diversified investments, as well as better governance and expertise in running schemes. All these things will help to deliver better outcomes for the millions of members who are saving into master trusts and group personal pension plans.

[Baroness Noakes (Con)]

Will the Minister say what the evidence base is for the assertions she just made?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

I was going to come on to that, but I am happy to do so now. Our evidence shows that across a range of domestic and international studies, a greater number of benefits can arise from scale of around £25 billion to £50 billion of assets under management, including investment expertise, improved governance and access to a wider range of assets. This is supported by industry analysis, with schemes of this size finding it easier to invest in productive finance. International evidence shows funds in the region of £25 billion invested nearly double the level of private market investment compared to a £1 billion fund. Obviously, we consulted on these matters and we selected the lower band, but there is further evidence that demonstrates the greater the scale, the greater the benefits to members. We did go for the lower end of that.

I turn to the amendments to Clause 40 from the noble Viscount, Lord Younger. This probing of how exemptions might operate, especially in relation to CDC schemes, is helpful. Our intent is clear: to consolidate multi employer workplace provision into fewer, larger, better run schemes. To support this, exemptions will be very limited and grounded in enduring design characteristics; for example, schemes serving protected characteristic groups or certain hybrid schemes that serve a connected employer group. I can confirm that CDC schemes are outside the scope of the scale measures. Parliament has invested considerable effort to establish this innovative market, and we will support its confident development while keeping requirements under review.

I turn to the broader point about why the exemptions are intended for use for schemes for specific characteristics; for example, those that solely serve a protected characteristic or those that serve a closed group of employers and has a DB section—hybrid schemes. I agree with the noble Lord that, if we were to have too many exemptions, it would simply mean the policy had less impact, but we need to have some flexibility and consultation.

Amendment 92 from the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, proposes that master trusts delivering “exceptional” value under the VFM framework could be exempted from scale and asset allocation requirements. Exemptions listed in new Section 20(1B) relate to scheme design and are intended to be permanent. Introducing a performance based exemption tied to ratings would be inherently unstable for members and would risk blurring two parallel policies. Scale and VFM complement each other, and both support good member outcomes. However, we do not agree that VFM ratings should be used to disapply structural expectations on scale, and we do not wish to dilute either measure.

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[Baroness Noakes (Con)]

I am struggling to understand why the Government are setting their face against good performance. They seem to be obsessively pursuing scale and consolidation of the industry, unable to see that, for pensioners and savers, equally good or better returns can be achieved from sub-scale operators. That is a question of fact. The evidence that the Minister gave earlier merely points to there being a correlation between size and returns; it is not an absolute demonstration that, below a certain scale, you do not achieve good returns for savers. I hope that the Minister can explain why the Government are so obsessed with scale rather than performance for savers.

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

I feel that we will have to agree to disagree on this point. The Government are not obsessed with scale; the Government believe that the evidence points to scale producing benefits for savers. We find the evidence on that compelling. I understand the noble Baroness’s argument, but the benefits of scale are clear. They will enable access to investment capability and produce the opportunity to improve overall saver outcomes for the longer term.

I cannot remember whether it was this amendment or another one that suggested that a scheme that did well on value for money should be able to avoid the scale requirements; the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, is nodding to me that it was her amendment. The obvious problem with that is that schemes’ VFM ratings are subject to annual assessment and, therefore, to change. It is therefore not practical to exempt schemes from scale on the benefit of that rating alone.

We are absolutely committed to the belief that scale matters. It is not just that we think big is beautiful—“big is beautiful” has always been a phrase for which I have affection—but I accept that it is not just about scale. It is not so for us, either. We need the other parts of the Bill and the Government’s project as well. We need value for money; we need to make sure that schemes have good investment capability and good governance; and we need to make sure that all parts of the Bill work together. This vision has been set out; it emerged after the pension investment review. The Government have set it out very clearly, and we believe that it is good.

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[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

We expect schemes with scale in a future landscape to deliver better outcomes for members. Consolidation is not created by the scale measures. It is already happening in the market, but we expect it to accelerate. Those running schemes are expected to carry out due diligence and act in the interests of their members in any consolidation activity. If there is anything else I can say on that, I will write to the noble Baroness. I am happy to look at it. The core question is whether it is a matter for those running schemes to make those judgments.

[Baroness Noakes (Con)]

Does the Minister understand that if you are currently a small scheme, unless you have certainty about being able to qualify to go into transitional relief, you will not be able to raise any money to facilitate your growth? It becomes a Catch-22. The Bill is creating uncertainty, which is destroying the businesses of those who might well be able to come through, but will not be able to convince equity or debt providers that they will be a viable business at the end because of the hurdles that the Government are creating in this Bill.

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

I understand the noble Baroness’s concerns, but I contend that we are doing the opposite. We are creating certainty by being clear about what the intention is, what the opportunities are and where we expect schemes to be able to get to and in creating transition pathways but making it clear that people will have to be able to have a credible plan to do that. We are making that clear now. I have given the reasons why I anticipate that there is a pathway to scale for schemes that are around at the moment, but that is a judgment that schemes will have to make. If they do not believe that they can make scale, they will need to look at alternative futures in a way that is happening in the market already through consolidation. I accept that it may accelerate it, but it is not creating it.

Amendment 134 seeks to remove the no-members requirement entirely, accepting that it would potentially allow any existing DC workplace scheme to claim new entrant status, circumventing the scale policy, which, while contested, is the point of our proposal. Our inclusion of the no-members provisions in Committee in the Commons clarified the original intent and prevented a loophole.

Amendment 137 would mean that existing schemes would be able to access the new entrant pathway if they had stronger investment performance than can be achieved by schemes with scale, which we have touched on. While I understand the intention to reward and maintain strong investment performance, the focus there would be on short-term rather than long-term outcomes. There are various practical problems with doing that in any case, but I am also conscious that there will be occasions where a scheme that depends on its investment performance does not deliver and no longer qualifies on the pathway. That is then not a stable position for employers that use the scheme or its members. At the heart of the requirement is the need to create buying power for schemes to drive lower fees and increase returns. A small scheme simply cannot generate the same buying power, and schemes with scale are expected to deliver better outcomes over the long term.

Amendment 138 would strip the power to define “strong potential to grow” and “innovative product design” in regulations. The Government believe that these are key attributes of a successful new entrant in the market. Like other noble Lords, I know about the importance of ensuring that the measures we implement will be clearly understood and workable in the complex pensions landscape. The form that innovation will take is, by definition, difficult to predict; we would not seek either to define its meaning without input from experts and industry or to fix that meaning in law without retaining some flexibility. Consultation with industry will be important in ensuring that schemes can demonstrate these attributes; to be clear, we will consult on this and other aspects of the new entrant pathway relief first, before regulations determine the meaning of these terms.