Employment Rights Bill

Debate between Baroness Noakes and Lord Jackson of Peterborough

Committee stage
Wednesday 18th June 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Noakes (Con)]

My Lords, in this group of amendments, I have the stand part notice for Clause 114. I support the several amendments in this group in the name of my noble friend Lady Coffey, many of which are probing amendments to try to find out more about this clause. I could find no clear rationale that the Government have given for Clause 114, in the sense of providing a rationale for the state—that is to say, taxpayers—funding the legal and other costs of civil proceedings in employment matters cases.

The scope of Clause 114 is huge. Not only does it cover the whole of employment, trade union and labour relations law, but the intended recipients seem to be unlimited. My noble friend Lady Coffey referred to the use of “person”. Subsection (1) refers to

“a person who is or may become party to civil proceedings”,

which covers a huge number of persons, and there does not seem to be any clear target for this clause. Of course, as we have heard, the funding can also extend to litigation involving non-employment matters, which seems extraordinary to me. All of this adds up to Clause 114 being very wide.

We already have in the UK a system for providing support for people in legal cases. It is called legal aid. It costs the taxpayer around £2 billion a year, nearly half of which is for civil litigation. That already has rules for employment tribunal support, where there is no funding for legal representation but there may be funding for advice on preparing cases. Successive Governments have had to make hard choices about what will be funded by legal aid in order to keep the cost of it within reasonable bounds for taxpayers as a whole but, now, with Clause 114, the business department is going to undermine that completely by taking powers to fund legal cases completely outside of the structures and limits that have been created for the legal aid system. The Government are again showing that they are, at heart, a two-tier Government, with unlimited legal aid by the backdoor for some favoured employment cases but tough eligibility criteria and financial limits for everybody else.

I now turn to the costings, which my noble friend Lady Coffey mentioned briefly. I could not find out what Clause 114 is going to cost. There is a limited amount of information in the paperwork that surrounds the Bill on the estimate of the overall costs for the fair work agency but, as far as I could find, there is no reference to how much the implementation of this proposal to fund legal costs will be within that totality. So my question to the Minister is really quite simple: what are the Government’s estimates of what Clause 114 will cost?

Going beyond that into the underlying assumptions, how many cases do the Government expect to bankroll every year? Will the Government support only cases with a better than average chance of success, or will they also fund no-hopers? What is the average cost of the cases that they think they will fund using the powers under Clause 114? What are their assumptions about cost recovery? I would have expected to find all these things analysed in detail somewhere in the papers, but I could not find anything. I hope the Minister will be able to answer these specific questions, and maybe also explain the lack of analysis in the documentation that the Government have prepared surrounding the Bill so far.

As I said earlier, I support my noble friend Lady Coffey’s amendments in this group, and I will listen carefully to what the Minister says in response to those amendments and, indeed, on Clause 114 standing part overall. My view is that, in the absence of good justification and a good understanding of the costs of Clause 114, it should not stand part of the Bill.

[Lord Jackson of Peterborough (Con)]

My Lords, I commend my noble friends’ excellent speeches on this clause. I press the Minister on what the Explanatory Notes say about subsection (4), because we have talked about the concept of persons and what that actually means. My noble friend spoke earlier about ministerial powers and the lack of information on costs, which should have been in a proper and more detailed impact assessment but is not. It is not in any supporting material, including the Labour Party manifesto for the general election. Presumably, the Minister will say that such information about the form and function of the clause will be developed in secondary legislation.

The sentence in the Explanatory Notes about subsection (4) is extraordinary, because it touches on what is potentially ultra vires and will certainly, I think, be subject to litigation or judicial review. Given that this is an Employment Rights Bill about labour relations and employment, it says:

“Subsection (4) makes provision for situations where proceedings relate partly to employment or trade union law … and partly to other matters”.


I just do not understand what those other matters can be. This is an employment law Bill. It is about labour relations and the relationships between employers, trade unions and a workforce. What other matters are within the bailiwick of Clause 114? I think we need to press the Minister on that, because we are being invited to give a blank cheque with taxpayers’ money to something that is very opaque, we do not understand, is not costed and is not detailed. On that basis, the Minister should address those specific issues.

National Insurance Contributions (Secondary Class 1 Contributions) Bill

Debate between Baroness Noakes and Lord Jackson of Peterborough

Committee stage
Wednesday 29th January 2025 Grand Committee

[Baroness Noakes (Con)]

Occasionally? It is more than occasionally.

[Lord Jackson of Peterborough (Con)]

I am getting gently heckled by my noble friend Lady Noakes. It may be more than occasionally. On a serious point, we know that some taxes are easy to raise quickly; one is fuel duty and this is another. I implore the Minister that this will have real consequences for many years. It is having consequences now in displacement activity that is not going to the most vulnerable people.

I know that the Labour Party would not inflict that sort of upset on people; most people in the Labour Party are decent and community minded, and want to do the best for the local community. I know, having served with Labour Members of Parliament in the other place, that they care about their local community and their constituents.

I would just ask the Minister to think about this again, particularly this case of people who are trying to do their best for their fellow citizens. All these amendments are extremely compelling, so I ask him to reconsider. It will not show weakness, but will show strength, magnanimity and the ability to govern wisely. I think he should consider pushing that forward because it is the right thing to do.

Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Bill

Debate between Baroness Noakes and Lord Jackson of Peterborough

Report stage
Wednesday 17th May 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Noakes (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friends Lord Jackson of Peterborough, Lord Frost and Lady Lawlor for adding their names to Amendment 51A.

The Government have made very significant changes to the Bill, with the new schedule revoking around 600 pieces of retained EU law, in place of the previous plan to revoke all extant EU law, broadly, at the end of this year. As I said on Monday, I welcome this pragmatic approach, but it has created a new need for visibility of progress in dealing with the total population of retained EU law, and my Amendment 51A tries to give that visibility.

Specifically, my amendment introduces a new clause which calls for the Secretary of State to prepare a report within six months of the Bill passing and every 12 months thereafter. That report should show the status of all items of retained EU law, other than those being revoked by the Bill, together with the Government’s plans for dealing with them. Subsection (2) of the new clause proposed by my amendment requires the reports to be laid before Parliament, and subsection (3) says that the reports should continue until all the items of retained EU law have been dealt with.

Last week, the Secretary of State for Business and Trade assured the other place that the revocation of the 600 bits of EU law in the new schedule was not the limit of the Government’s ambition, and I would certainly like to believe that. My fear is that once the Bill is passed, government departments will heave a sigh of relief and move on to things that are more interesting than working out what to do with their retained EU law.

Legislation cannot make the government machine complete the task, but it can provide for transparency, and I see this as having two benefits. First, the Secretary of State for Business and Trade will have a tool at her disposal to keep the pressure up on her Cabinet colleagues to do their part. Secondly, and perhaps as importantly, Parliament will have information which it can use to hold the Executive to account.

I was already concerned about how to monitor progress on dealing with retained EU financial services legislation. That legislation has been carved out of the Bill and is dealt with in the separate Financial Services and Markets Bill. In the other place last week, the Secretary of State for Business and Trade claimed that 500 pieces of retained EU law will be repealed by the Financial Services and Markets Bill by the end of this year. Unfortunately, this is not true. Schedule 1 to that Bill contains long lists of financial services laws which are identified for repeal, but repeal will be activated only when the Treasury decides to do so, and it will certainly not be by the end of this year. The Treasury has been clear that the process will take “a number of years”, and it has no plan or timetable to complete the work. I already have some amendments ready for Report on the Financial Services and Markets Bill next month.

Given the initial drafting of the Bill, I thought that the Treasury’s approach to retained EU law was going to be the exception, but it now appears to be the new normal. What happens to retained EU law and when it will be determined by the various government departments is not clear at the moment. I want to ensure that progress on dealing with retained EU law across the whole of government is kept in sharp focus.

I drafted this amendment in haste once the Government had tabled their own amendments to the Bill last week. I am fairly sure that the Minister’s lawyers will be able to tear it apart, but I hope he will see it as an opportunity to create a transparency and oversight mechanism that will complement the Government’s new approach to retained EU law. I beg to move.

[Lord Jackson of Peterborough (Con)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow my noble friend Lady Noakes on this issue, and I am delighted to have had the opportunity to support her by adding my name to the amendment. Noble Lords will remember that during the passage of the EU withdrawal Bill there was a great deal of discussion about whether this House sought to gain for itself executive powers—that is, to become the Government in directing government policy with respect to the withdrawal Act and exiting from the European Union, rather than performing its proper constitutional role, which we all concede is effective scrutiny and oversight.

This amendment is a helpful compromise in seeking to direct Ministers, the Government and the Civil Service to a place where we can all agree. I am sure that noble Lords who earlier this week supported Amendments 2 and 4 and spoke to Amendment 76, which I gather later today we are likely to divide on, will welcome this amendment—you need congestion charging on the road to Damascus, because the traffic is quite heavy at the moment. Those who were happy to turn a blind eye to the huge corpus of EU legislation from 1973 to 2020 are now praying in aid the importance of scrutiny and oversight. That being so, this is a good vehicle to give effect to that, particularly the need for periodic reviews of the Government’s progress on the dashboard.

As I made clear when I spoke earlier in the week, people are watching how this House and the Government ensure that the decision they made in 2016 is given proper effect. While I understand that this House cannot instruct the Government, this is a good way of achieving compromise. I expect a majority on all sides of the House to give my noble friend’s amendment their strong and emphatic support, and I fully expect, since the Minister has an opportunity so to do, an amendment to be laid at Third Reading that consolidates this amendment. If that is possible, I think there will be a strong consensus as the Bill goes forward. In the meantime, I strongly support the amendment and I hope noble Lords will give it their support.