Financial Services Bill
Baroness Primarolo Excerpts(11 years, 5 months ago)
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Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab)
On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. On 29 February this year, I asked the Secretary of State for Justice whether he would name the 25 highest-paid lawyers and the amounts they received. I was told the information would be available in due course. I asked again on 19 April, and was told the information would be available later this summer—[Interruption.]
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)
Order. Will hon. Members who are leaving the Chamber please so do quietly? Those remaining in the Chamber should listen to the point of order and if they wish to have private conversations, they should leave the Chamber. I cannot hear what the hon. Gentleman is saying. I got as far as 29 February so perhaps he will pick up his point from there.
Mr Slaughter
My initial question on 29 February asked for the names of the 25 highest-paid lawyers and I was told the information would be available in due course. I asked again on 19 April and was told the information would be available later in the summer. Yesterday, the answer to my question was spread over the pages of The Sun and The Sunday Telegraph with the Justice Secretary’s inimitable spin put on it. This afternoon, I received a reply to my question from Lord McNally. Is it appropriate to wait nine months for a question to be answered, and for it to be leaked all over the Sunday press the day before that answer is received? Even by the standards of this Government that is poor. Will you give me some advice, Madam Deputy Speaker, on how I can avoid a repetition of that?
Madam Deputy Speaker
Clearly the Government thought long and hard about how to answer the question—a little too long, in fact—and information was released to the press before the hon. Gentleman received it in writing, although he has it now. There is not a great deal that I can do from the Chair, but I recommend that the hon. Gentleman takes the matter up with the Procedure Committee. Nine months is a little long, as I am sure most Members of the House would agree.
Let us move on to the next group of amendments.
Madam Deputy Speaker
With this we may take Lords amendments 25, 41, 63, 78, 86, 128 to 138, 147, 231 to 233 and 236.
Greg Clark
The amendments in this group relate to key considerations that have underpinned the design of the new conduct regulator. The Government have been clear that regulation should focus on making financial markets work well, and on securing better outcomes for consumers.
Access is critical. Without access to a bank account, for example, it is difficult for individuals to participate fully in the economy and even in society. To support access, Lords amendment 25 adds a new “have regard” to the Financial Conduct Authority’s competition objective. Therefore, when considering whether effective competition is in the interests of consumers, the FCA must have regard to
“the ease with which consumers…including consumers in areas affected by social or economic deprivation, can access”
the services they may wish to use.
That reflects discussions in the other place, and it is right to make it clear that the regulator’s duties embrace those affected by deprivation.
Public Service Pensions Bill
Baroness Primarolo Excerpts(11 years, 5 months ago)
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Dr Whiteford
I think I might be rescuing the hon. Lady from the point she was trying to make. Earlier, she stressed the importance of considering what is actually in the legislation rather than the world as we would like it to be. Does she welcome the fact that John Swinney has not exercised his flexibility to increase contributions to the local government pension scheme?
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)
Order. The hon. Member for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore) will comment on that point only if it is relevant to the amendments we are considering. I remind hon. Members that we are not yet on Third Reading. The debate is going rather wide of the new clauses and amendments, so perhaps the hon. Lady could return to them.
Sheila Gilmore
I am more than happy to do so, Madam Deputy Speaker. Perhaps we will have further debate on that topic.
If amendment 11 were agreed to, considerable and greater power would be available for the Scottish Parliament than the current Scottish Government appear to want. Within the context of the politics at present, I do not think it would be idle speculation to suggest that that might be convenient.
Small Charitable Donations Bill
Baroness Primarolo Excerpts(11 years, 5 months ago)
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Dr Whiteford
I beg to move amendment 34, page 14, line 4, leave out ‘in cash’.
This amendment allows for gifts made by contactless cash card and mobile telephone transactions where it is impractical to obtain a gift aid declaration.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
Amendment 35, page 14, line 5, leave out ‘of cash’.
Consequential on amendment 34.
Amendment 36, page 14, line 9, leave out ‘“cash” means coins and notes in any currency’.
Consequential on amendment 34.
Amendment 22, page 14, leave out line 9 and insert—
‘“cash” means coins, notes, cheques and money donated electronically in any currency.’.
This amendment seeks to include non-cash donations within the Gift Aid Small Donations Scheme.
Amendment 2, page 14, line 9, after ‘currency’, insert ‘and any equivalent electronic payment as may from time to time be prescribed by the Treasury by order.’.
To future proof the Bill by enabling the Treasury to allow electronic payments to be treated as allowable donations.
Amendment 37, page 14, line 16, leave out ‘cash’ and insert ‘gift’.
Consequential on amendment 34.
Dr Whiteford
The last time the House debated the Bill, I raised the challenge of new ways of donating to charity. The purpose of the amendment is to take account of changes in the way people donate to charities, recognising the sea change that has occurred over the past 10 years or so in how they donate and the fact that people increasingly donate small amounts through text message giving. The technology driving us in that direction is developing rapidly. Conversely, and perhaps somewhat paradoxically, the amendment would also allow charities to benefit more from small donations made by cheque.
The thinking behind the amendment is derived from work done by the Institute of Fundraising. In a previous life, when I worked in the charity sector, I worked closely with the institute and so pay tribute to the immensely valuable research it undertakes to understand how and why people support charities in order to promote good charity governance and support large and small voluntary sector organisations alike.
The reality is that technological developments, especially with smartphones and tablets, mean that the number of electronic cashless donation options is growing. For instance, I am sure that many of us watched and donated to the BBC’s “Children in Need” appeal a couple of weeks ago, many of us doing so through text message donations. The use of mobile phones as cashless wallets is growing, and I think that the Bill would benefit by reflecting that. UK high street banks are already working on a mobile payments scheme to create a common infrastructure to link bank accounts to mobile phone numbers. That will help keep account details more secure, but it also heralds further changes in how we conduct transactions, including charitable donations.
There are now more than 30 million contactless cash cards in circulation, contactless functionality is now available on an increasing number of mobile phones, and 68 national retailers are already live with contactless payments, including the Post Office, Marks and Spencer and W.H. Smith. There are 135,000 terminals across the UK where donations can be made. I have to confess that I personally have not yet caught up with this technology beyond automatic top-ups for my Oyster card. However, I am aware that the Cabinet Office is working with the National Endowment for Science, Technology and the Arts to explore the possibility of using Oyster cards for spontaneous charitable giving through the “Chip In” project. We should encourage this kind of small electronic donation, as it has significant advantages over bucket-rattling. These donations are a lot more secure, they are significantly more auditable, and they are substantially less susceptible to fraud, particularly the small-scale fraud that has always been a risk associated with spontaneous cash donations. The upper limit of payments by contactless cash cards is currently £20, which could provide a nice compliance with the Bill.
Another aspect is online transactions, which continue to grow. Between 2007 and 2012, the number of adults buying goods online increased by 9 million to 37.6 million —74% of the UK population. It would be valuable for the Bill more overtly to keep pace with these significant changes in behaviour. The Government’s impact assessment for the Bill suggests that current text giving systems make it easy to comply with the gift aid scheme, but I am not convinced that this is borne out by the evidence. Fundraisers say that only 20% to 25% of donors properly complete gift aid declarations for text donations, but some charities report that the figure is as low as 5%. That compares with 85% of sign-ups for online donations.
The Institute of Fundraising points out that when a text donation has been made the provider usually sends a bounce-back text message with a link to a website page that the donor needs to visit to make a declaration. This is because the donor needs to complete their full name and address and to provide a declaration statement, which is a rather long thing to include in a text message. We do not have typical texting rates across the sector because providers do not give that information, but we do know that charities that have spoken out on the issue are concerned about the amount that they lose through people not completing this rather cumbersome bureaucratic process. Nevertheless, those forms of giving are auditable and would fit quite closely with the spirit of the Bill with regard to cash donations in recognising that, as time moves on, more and more of us are using different forms of contactless payments to make donations.
JustTextGiving does not give people’s phone numbers to charities, so if someone does not respond to the initial text bounce-back there is no other way for the charity to get the donation, and declaration rates therefore remain very low. Where charities get the details, they will typically call the donor back if they have not had a response to the bounce-back. However, we have to bear in mind that if it is a mobile number, it might be a fairly expensive phone call, and if the donation has been only the £1 that the donor would otherwise have thrown in the bucket, we have to measure the cost-effectiveness of that relative to the amount of gift aid that might come back. This only really works for higher value donations.
In its evidence to the Committee, Camphill Scotland said that as a charitable organisation it frequently uses the newer methods of collection, and that it was keen that the Bill should start to explore the possibility of new ways of enabling donations by text messages. It went so far as to say that
“the Bill as drafted would either discriminate against those choosing to use this technology, or discourage charities from making use of this technology.”
My amendment—this is somewhat ironic—would also cover small donations made by cheque. Very often, cheque donations are made by donors who are already known to a charity, but cheques handed over at one-off fundraising events or plate collections at funerals, for example, might not be so easy to identify, and it might not be worth the administrative costs of chasing up the donor. In some circumstances, filling in the gift aid declaration is a time-consuming process, and therefore not something that everyone will be able to do.
Another reason why the amendment would strengthen the Bill is that younger people have different giving habits from other parts of the population. The Charities Aid Foundation, with Bristol university, commissioned a report entitled, “Mind the Gap—The growing generational divide in charitable giving”, published in September 2012, which identified a widening gap in giving between the over-60s and under-30s. Of course, many young people do give very generously to charity and are very involved in charitable activities, but a lower proportion of younger people are giving than older people. Making electronic giving more relevant and attractive could be one way to help to reverse this decline.
Reputational risk is one of the greatest threats to charitable giving. A failure by one charity is felt by other charities in the same sector. While collection cans still have a valuable part to play and are a very effective means of raising money quickly, they carry an inherent susceptibility to fraud. Electronic giving diminishes the opportunity for money to go astray. It is a win-win situation. The amendment would strengthen the Bill, increase the benefits to charities, and help legislation to keep pace with the accelerating changes in technologies. I therefore commend it to the House.
Fuel Duty
Baroness Primarolo Excerpts(11 years, 6 months ago)
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Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)
Order. I am reducing the time limit to six minutes for remaining speeches. I remind speakers that we have to conclude the debate before the winding-up speeches begin at 9.40 pm. If there are lots of interventions, that will cut speeches even further. I call Martin Vickers.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)
Order. I have to reduce the time limit again to five minutes, because interventions have slowed us down. I remind Members that if they take interventions it will have to come off their time, because we will start the wind-ups at 20 minutes to 10.
Beer Duty Escalator
Baroness Primarolo Excerpts(11 years, 6 months ago)
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Mr Donohoe
I am very grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way. Will he reconsider his previous answer to me? Scotch whisky is the heaviest taxed of all the spirits, beers, ciders and wines in this country. [Interruption.] It is the heaviest taxed.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)
Order. The hon. Gentleman will sit down. We are not discussing duty on whisky, as much as some Members would like to discuss it. We will keep to the debate, which is about beer duty and pubs.
Andrew Griffiths
Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. What I would say to the hon. Gentleman is that 95% of all Scotch whisky is exported. In the UK, 87% of all the beer that is drunk in this country is brewed in this country. Beer is a great British manufacturing success story, which is why we need to support it.
Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con)
I commend my hon. Friend on his speech, which is excellent as ever. Is not the point that beer duty disadvantages pubs against supermarkets? Supermarkets have 40,000 other products that they can cross-subsidise, perhaps by selling beer at a loss or a reduced price. We are in an economic mess because we have over-spent, not because we are under-taxed, and the Government’s solution should be to reduce spending, not to seek to increase taxation for ever.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)
Order. There is a great deal of pressure on this debate, and I wish it took only a look from the Chair to remind Members that introductory remarks are supposed to last for 10 minutes or so. The speech by the hon. Member for Burton (Andrew Griffiths) has already lasted considerably longer, and I would be grateful if he would make progress so that others can contribute in full speeches, rather than interventions.
Andrew Griffiths
Thank you for reminding me of my obligations, Madam Deputy Speaker. I will come quickly to a conclusion.
My hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) makes two important points. First, supermarkets have the ability to force brewers to include in the price paid for the beer any increases in duty, whereas publicans, who tend to run small businesses, do not have that opportunity. Secondly, supermarkets use their bulk buying power to drive down the price and use alcohol as a loss leader, which disadvantages pubs.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)
Order. I am reducing the speaking time limit immediately to five minutes. There are still 13 Members wishing to contribute to the debate, and I shall do my best to ensure that they are all able to do so.
Public Service Pensions Bill
Baroness Primarolo Excerpts(11 years, 6 months ago)
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Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)
Order. May I gently inform the House that no time limit for speeches has been imposed in this debate as yet, but contributions are going up in length, not down? We started with speeches of 15 minutes, and we have just had one of more than 20 minutes. If Members cannot ensure that their speeches are a little shorter—I put it no stronger than that at the moment—it will be necessary to impose a time limit to ensure that every Member gets into the debate.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)
Order. I am going to put a time limit on speeches now. It will be 12 minutes from the next speaker, after which I will review it. We may not get to all the Members who wish to speak by 9.30, when the winding-up speeches will start. If Members take a lot of interventions and go considerably in excess of 12 minutes, I will have to cut the time again.
Infrastructure (Financial Assistance) Bill
Baroness Primarolo Excerpts(11 years, 7 months ago)
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Chris Leslie (Nottingham East) (Lab/Co-op)
I beg to move amendment 11, page 1, line 6, after ‘infrastructure’, insert ‘within the United Kingdom’.
The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Dawn Primarolo)
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
Amendment 1, page 1, line 7, leave out ‘includes’ and insert ‘means’.
Amendment 9, page 1, line 11, after ‘health’, insert ‘childcare’.
Amendment 4, page 1, line 13, leave out paragraph (e).
Amendment 2, page 1, line 13, after ‘housing’, insert ‘, the function of which has a national significance.’.
Amendment 10, in clause 1, page 1, line 13, at end insert—
‘(2A) “Infrastructure” excludes the expansion of Heathrow airport before May 2015.’.
Chris Leslie
At near enough to 7 o’clock, I am glad that we finally turn our attention to the Infrastructure (Financial Assistance) Bill. Anybody following these proceedings might be astonished that we have been allowed just over two hours for the Committee stage. In our view it is unsatisfactory to leave the rules governing £50 billion of public expenditure to such scant and inadequate scrutiny. Although we do not necessarily disagree with the broad principles behind the Bill, that does not mean that we should fall short in our duty as parliamentarians to analyse, consider and improve the details of the legislation. Ministers cannot point to the House of Lords as the place where the Bill can be improved and amended if we run out of time for consideration in Committee. I think the last time the Lords sat in Committee on a money Bill was in 1995, when it considered the European Communities (Finance) Bill. This two-hour period is therefore the only opportunity we will get to scrutinise the particulars of the legislation; hence the amendments that are before us.
I want to talk to amendments 11 and 9 in this first group. Amendment 11 would make it clear that the substantive powers in the Bill, which give Ministers the ability to grant financial assistance to any persons, should be used for infrastructure in the United Kingdom, for essentially this reason: we believe that we should focus all our efforts on the domestic infrastructure needs of our country. That is why we think the Bill, if it can bring benefits, needs to focus very much on the benefits of infrastructure and bringing forward capital schemes here at home. Hon. Members will be aware that the UK has been falling behind quite considerably in the past couple of years in terms of infrastructure and capital investment schemes. Only today in the Financial Times we read about the Construction Products Association warning that
“infrastructure is in free-fall,”
and that it expects spending to fall by 13% in 2012 compared with the last calendar year, despite the hollow words of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Noble Francis, economics director at the CPA, said:
“We are getting to the stage where the government just can’t make more announcements with nothing happening. At some stage they are going to have to launch some capital investment that sees work happening on the ground. This can be done quickly, easily and cheaply speeding up work on the repair and maintenance of roads, schools, hospitals and housing.”
The article points out that road construction, to take one example of infrastructure investment,
“is suffering in particular, with the CPA projecting a decline of 40 per cent this year and 5 per cent next year.”
Bank of England (Appointment of Governor) Bill
Baroness Primarolo Excerpts(11 years, 10 months ago)
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John McDonnell
As extremely entertaining as the hon. Gentleman’s speech is, may I suggest that it is an example of the filibustering that, in the eyes of the general public, demeans the House? May I suggest that he addresses the Bill instead of using this mechanism in this way to embarrass himself and degrade the proceedings of the House?
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)
Order. That might be the hon. Gentleman’s opinion and the opinion of people outside the House, but the hon. Member for Finchley and Golders Green (Mike Freer) is in order. If he was not, I would prevent him from speaking. I appreciate that that is the view of the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell), and that he has now put it on the record, but the hon. Member for Finchley and Golders Green will be in order if he wishes to advance this argument.
Mike Freer
Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I shall indeed turn to the substance of the debate, but I find it rather sad that an hon. Member seeking to restore the rights of Parliament should seek to deprive another hon. Member of the right to continue the long-established tradition in the House of speaking at length, if they so choose.
I was talking about the original subscribers, so I—[Interruption.] I cannot hear what the hon. Member for West Ham (Lyn Brown) is chuntering about. If she wishes to intervene, she should please do so. [Interruption.]
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)
Order. I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Gentleman again, but let me say to the hon. Member for West Ham (Lyn Brown) that she can either sit on the Benches behind the Front Bench or sit on the Front Bench. I am afraid that she cannot go backwards and forwards as and when she wishes to intervene.
Mike Freer
With the forbearance of the House, I will come to the substance of the Bill, but I want to set out the historical perspective for a few more minutes, if the House will indulge me.
Looking at the original subscribers, I was surprised to see the clerk of Eton college. Nothing changes: those Eton chaps get everywhere. Sadly, however, I could find no forebears of the Eton alumni who serve in the current Executive, but I did find a Mr du Bois, a Mr Gape and a Mr Wollaston, so I wondered whether there was an historical link to my hon. Friends the Members for Enfield North (Nick de Bois) or for Totnes (Dr Wollaston) or the hon. Member for Ilford South (Mike Gapes). The index of subscribers was clearly a list of butchers, bakers, candlestick makers, tinkers, tailors and soldiers, but sadly I could see no spies—although, suspiciously, there was a rather large number of French names.
Although the Bank was not a modern-day co-op, it was owned by ordinary people until nationalisation in 1946. At the Bank’s inception, the original subscribers—the original owners—could appoint an agent to act on their behalf. That brings me to the present day—I am grateful to the House for indulging me to this point. The Bank is now technically owned by the people and, through the people, this House. Acting for the people, we have appointed the Prime Minister and his Ministers to act as our agents. The appointment of the Governor of the Bank of England by the Executive is therefore entirely in accordance with the tradition of the Bank from its original founding fathers—the original subscribers.
I have listened to the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington and to the arguments of other Members—specifically, those on the Treasury Committee, whom I admire greatly. When considering whether to speak in this debate, I noted that my hon. Friend the Member for Chichester (Mr Tyrie) had put his name to the Bill, which gave me pause to wonder whether it had some merit. I appreciate the view that the way in which the Governor has been appointed has not changed substantially since the Bank was nationalised in 1946 and that some feel that reform is required. I also appreciate the wider point that the relationship between the Executive and the legislature in this House should be rebalanced. I welcome the current Government’s moves to do so thus far. Others have compared the appointment of the Governor of the Bank of England with appointments to the Office for Budget Responsibility, but there is a huge difference between bodies that can advise and people with the power to intervene. There is a big difference between the Bank of England and the Office for Budget Responsibility.
A consensus appears to be developing that Select Committees are an under-utilised parliamentary tool. However, we have recently seen a national focus—indeed, an international focus—on the Select Committee on Culture, Media and Sport and, this week, on the Treasury Committee, which is so ably chaired by my hon. Friend. Although new to these Benches, I have sensed a shift, both inside and outside the House, in the role of Select Committees. They no longer simply scrutinise expenditure or the performance of Departments; they now have an investigatory role. That is valued, but there is a huge difference between scrutinising and investigating, and getting involved in appointments. I am particularly worried by the parallels with congressional committees in the United States, because of the precedent set by the vitriolic stand-offs and deadlocks between the Executive and Congress over appointments. I vividly remember the appointment—or the non-appointment—of Clarence Thomas. Whatever the merits of that particular case, the whole drawn-out saga and the blood on the political floor were deeply damaging to the institutions involved. I fear that if this Bill passes, we will go down the same path.
I welcome reform, but I have a number of concerns about the Bill. The Treasury has already agreed new powers for the Governor, and I remind the House that the Governor is one of the most important financial figures not just in this country but in global finance. He or she—as it might well be in the future—is of vital importance not just to the UK economy, but to the world economy. Tinkering with our constitution has ramifications not just for us, but across the world.
My concern about constitutional tinkering is that it is like a thread. If we pull that thread, we will not know where it leads. As my hon. Friend the Member for Wimbledon (Stephen Hammond) said, why stop at appointing the Governor of the Bank of England; what about other public bodies? The thin end of the wedge argument carries a lot of weight, as does the argument that we are tinkering with the constitution.
I refer hon. Members to what will happen next Tuesday. If it comes to pass, the House of Lords will be abolished or “reformed”, as it is euphemistically called. We will have a new elected body at the other end of the building. How long will it be before that body starts to—
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)
Order. I have to tell the hon. Gentleman that what he is saying now is not in order. He is speculating about something that has not yet happened. I suggest that he concentrate on this Bill, either on a historical or contemporary basis, and not refer to Bills that we have not yet debated.
Mike Freer
I am grateful for your advice, Madam Deputy Speaker.
My worry is that the other place, in whatever form, will seek to flex its muscles and say, “If the Commons has a role in appointment and dismissal, why not us?” There could be a deadlock not only between the Executive and the House of Commons but between the House of Commons and the other place.
The Treasury Committee’s role is vital. I have no doubt that its role in expressing a voice in the appointment of a Governor of the Bank of England is crucial. Let me deal, however, with the issue of deadlock. In reality, if there were a deadlock, we are told that it could come down to an opinion being expressed on the Floor of the House. Given the potential for such an impasse to create instability in the markets, I remain unconvinced that this Bill provides proper safeguards to prevent this from occurring. In reality, a vote on the Floor of the House is likely to be whipped, and the Chancellor of the day would get his candidate. The Chancellor would have his way, but only after a delay and a bruising stand-off between the Committee and the Chancellor. How would the markets react if there were such a delay?
Joseph Johnson
I thank my hon. Friend for that point. I remind the House of what I was permitted to relay about the private views of the Chairman of the Treasury Committee. His private view—he was not speaking in his capacity as Chairman of the Committee—
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)
Order. With respect, shall we leave the Chair of the Treasury Committee to express his own views and stop talking about his private views?
Joseph Johnson
Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I will follow that guidance.
I am equally concerned that giving the Treasury Committee a veto over the dismissal of a Governor could, in certain circumstances, create an unacceptable situation in which the Governor has lost the confidence of the Government but hangs on as a lame duck. That would clearly be unacceptable given the Executive powers he would be discharging on behalf of the state. That is exactly why the Government have historically attempted to address those issues by limiting the Treasury Committee’s role to non-statutory pre-commencement hearings with members of the Bank’s policy committees, which of course already include the Governor and deputy governors.
Let us not forget that the Treasury Committee already has a huge impact through its oversight, as Lord Burns noted in another place,
“simply by the way it brings people in, talks to them, summarises its opinions and then leaves it in the hands of Ministers to decide how far they wish to take account of those views”.—[Official Report, House of Lords, 26 June 2012; Vol. 738, c. 163.]
Professional Standards in the Banking Industry
Baroness Primarolo Excerpts(11 years, 10 months ago)
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The Attorney-General
It would help if the right hon. Gentleman listened, rather than getting carried away with his own rhetoric. There is nothing to prevent this House, if it wishes, from setting up a joint inquiry of both Houses into—[Interruption.] The “banking industry” is the way it was described, and that is what is in the motion—[Interruption.] Yes, to incorporate LIBOR—I make that quite clear.
Obviously, and this point applies as much to the right hon. Gentleman’s motion as to any other step, if there are criminal investigations or inquiries, any inquiry by this House will have to be managed in the light of that process—[Interruption.] Yes, it will have to be managed, because it must not interfere with that process. But, for the Government to support a motion for a judicial inquiry that cannot even get off the ground if criminal inquiries and investigations are taking place would be a rather odd thing for the Government to do, because such an inquiry could not happen.
The right hon. Gentleman has made a mistake in relation to the motion—
Madam Deputy Speaker
Order, Mr Balls.
Order means order for Front Benchers on the Government side as well. I understand that the Attorney-General is trying to be helpful to the House, but he has made several interventions, they have all been too long and I hope that we can move on now with the debate.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr George Osborne)
Madam Deputy Speaker—[Interruption.]
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)
Order. We are not going to get anywhere in this debate if Members on both sides of the Chamber continue to bawl at each other. It would be a very good idea if we could listen to the Chancellor and proceed with the debate. I am sure that he will be generous in giving way.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)
Order. Mr Gwynne, I have already said that I do not expect people continually to shout across the Chamber. I know that people on all sides are angry about this, but we cannot have a debate if we cannot hear what is being said. I ask all Members, including those on the Government side, to bear in mind that our proceedings are being watched by people who are a darn sight angrier than people in this House.
Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)
On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. The best way to abate the anger in the Chamber and to have a calm and proper debate would be for the Chancellor simply to withdraw the accusation that he made against the shadow Chancellor.
Madam Deputy Speaker
Mr Brennan, you know full well that that is not a point of order; it is a point of debate and it is on the record. Perhaps now we can proceed. I call the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
Mr Osborne
I have never seen Labour Members and the shadow Chancellor so rattled about their time in office. We had one hour of an attempt by the former City Minister to defend his conduct when he was in office and these scandals happened, and we have still not had from him a simple apology for what he did—his failure of regulation. He should get up and say not, “We were all involved in this; there were Governments all over the world doing it”, but “I was the City Minister and I am sorry.”
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)
I am eternally grateful for the help from the hon. Gentleman in reminding the House of what I have already said to the House, which is that if Members believe that this demonstrates the behaviour of the House at its very best on a serious matter, they are sorely mistaken, regrettably. However, each Member in this House is responsible for their own behaviour, and not me, thank goodness, so perhaps we can continue with the debate.
Mr Osborne
May I at least make this point to those on the Opposition Benches about the proposal in their motion to have a judge-led inquiry?
Mr Osborne
There is something else I want to say to the House. Of course we can act swiftly or follow the Opposition motion, which means delay, but there is a broader point. A Joint Committee can summon people under oath and it can summon papers. I commit to giving it any resources it needs to do its job. It can sit in public, and we can get to the bottom of what happened. But there is this final point for the House to consider—[Interruption.]
Madam Deputy Speaker
Order. If Members of the House think that constantly standing and holding out their arms will make the Chancellor give way, they might be wrong. I would be grateful if the Chancellor would indicate to the House whether he has any intention of taking further interventions. In that way, perhaps we can manage the debate in a more seemly fashion than we are doing at the moment.
Mr Osborne
I have taken many interventions, and I know that many people want to speak in the debate. That is why we will have a time limit on speeches. I want to say one final thing to the House. We are sent here to hold people to account on behalf of the public. What does it say about us if we fail to investigate? We talk about a lack of trust—
Ian Austin (Dudley North) (Lab)
On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Is it in order for a Member of this House, outside the Chamber, to smear his opponents with utterly false allegations for which he has no evidence whatever, and then to refuse to substantiate or withdraw them when he gets here? It is a complete disgrace.
Madam Deputy Speaker
Mr Austin, I think you know that I am grateful for the fact that I am not responsible for what Members choose to say in the House. Each Member needs to reflect on the accusations and counter-accusations, whoever they are. That is not a point of order. It is a matter of debate, and Members are making their feelings felt very forcefully on that point.
Mr Osborne
Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I think that we have learnt today that the Brownite cabal and all its tactics are alive and well in the Labour party, and that they have taken over the leadership of the party. All the things that brought the last Government into disrepute are being repeated by the Labour Opposition today.
Let me end by saying this. What does it say about Parliament if we fail to investigate ourselves? We talk about a lack of trust in politics, but why should the public have confidence in their politicians when we politicians do not have the confidence to investigate scandals such as this? We have in Parliament the skills, the expertise and the mandate to do the job. We were created to hold power to account. Let Parliament make its decision today, and let all parties abide by that decision. Let us set up the inquiry and hold finance to account, and let us get on with it.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)
Order. Sit down, Mr Watts. I am on my feet.
Mr Watts, you will have to rephrase that last bit. You will do it briefly, and then Mr Tyrie will continue his speech—and that includes withdrawing the accusation of lying.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)
I shall call the last speaker now. The winding-up speeches must start at 4.55 pm, so I ask that speaker to resume his seat then.
David Rutley
I completely agree. It is so important that we drive for urgent action that I hope Opposition Members will reconsider their stated position and vote with us this evening in support of a parliamentary-led—
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)
Order. I asked the hon. Gentleman to conclude his remarks by 4.55 pm and that is now the time. The winding-up speeches will now start.
Finance Bill
Baroness Primarolo Excerpts(11 years, 10 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Charlie Elphicke
The issue had an enormous impact on the amount of taxes paid in this country. Why were interest rates being rigged by the previous Government, according to the memo?
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)
Order. The subject before us is what we will be debating, Mr Elphicke; we do not need to be sidetracked at this stage. I call Catherine McKinnell.
Charlie Elphicke
I have taken enough interventions. I have been generous in giving way and in dealing in detail with the hon. Gentleman’s points in particular.
The Opposition are saying, it seems, that we should take more money out of the banking system, but that would be irresponsible because it would constrain banks’ ability to lend. The Opposition use Barclays as an excuse to blame everything on greedy traders manipulating the LIBOR interest rate. I would urge caution, however, because I have looked through some of the internal documents floating around, particularly the note of a conversation involving Paul Tucker of the Bank of England. If I may, Madam Deputy Speaker, I shall briefly read it to the House by way of scene setting and to demonstrate the Opposition’s mischievousness in seeking to impose this tax.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)
Order. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman is about to make a fascinating point, but he will of course assure me that it is relevant to the new clause.
Charlie Elphicke
It is indeed, Madam Deputy Speaker, because a key part of the Opposition’s rationale for the new clause is that what happened at Barclays was so disgraceful that we need to punish the bankers. A large part of the shadow Minister’s argument is that these bankers are outrageous and we need to impose a tax. My point, however, is that we need to consider the wider picture. I am particularly concerned about the comments concerning what the previous Government did on regulation as well as tax. It says here:
“Mr Tucker stated the levels of calls he was receiving from Whitehall were senior and that, while he was certain that we did not need advice, that it did not always need to be the case that we appeared as high as we have recently.”
It seems it was not only greedy bankers manipulating the interest rates and putting pressure on the LIBOR interest recording; it seems more clearly to have gone to the heart of government and to have been sanctioned by Downing street, according to some comments on the internet. When we talk about how to tax the banks, we need to consider how to get more lending and ensure responsible banking with incentives for the long term. We also need to ensure that members of the previous Government accept their responsibility for the Barclays scandal, the LIBOR situation and their own behaviour.
Catherine McKinnell
The information that the hon. Gentleman is laying out is very interesting, but I would like to make it clear that the Labour party has been calling for an additional levy on banks’ payrolls this year for months, if not a year—I do not have the exact date. The scandal that has unfolded this week has highlighted the contribution that the banks made to the financial collapse and the collapse of the banks, which led to the economic recession that we have suffered. For that reason—
Madam Deputy Speaker
No, not okay. All interventions are supposed to be brief, and that includes Front-Bench interventions. I think we have got the gist of it now.
Charlie Elphicke
What I have set out also highlights the previous Government’s role in failing to regulate and, it seems, in indulging in a bit of market manipulation pressure of their own. I do not think that is acceptable. In her scene setting, the shadow Minister was basically saying, “What happened at Barclays is outrageous; therefore we need to do this.” What I am saying is that we should be careful what we wish for, because banks need enough capital to lend to small businesses, to create the jobs and money that we need to expand the economy and make this country a great success in the next 10 years, building Britain back up to the sort of success that we saw in the ’80s.
Graeme Morrice (Livingston) (Lab)
It is a great pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Wansbeck (Ian Lavery), although I noticed that my hon. Friend the Member for Easington (Grahame M. Morris) also rose when you called me, Madam Deputy Speaker.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)
Order. I hope this does not mean that I will get a speech in stereo; I hope his hon. Friend will wait until I call him before he speaks.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)
Order. Has the hon. Lady given way or has she concluded?
Mel Stride
It is a great shame that you are not, Madam Deputy Speaker.
Will the hon. Member for Bethnal Green and Bow (Rushanara Ali), by the same token, apologise for the doubling of unemployment under the previous Government?
Grahame M. Morris
Thank you for the differentiation, Madam Deputy Speaker. It is a pleasure to be in such august company as that of my hon. and good Friend the Member for Livingston (Graeme Morrice)—
Madam Deputy Speaker
Perhaps the hon. Gentlemen are trying to confuse me, because now they are sitting next to each other—but only one has the Floor.
Grahame M. Morris
I am grateful to you, Madam Deputy Speaker, for the opportunity to speak in this debate and to follow my hon. Friends the Members for Wansbeck (Ian Lavery) and for Livingston, and indeed the hon. Member for Dover (Charlie Elphicke), who served on the Public Bill Committee. He is not in his place at the moment, but I found his contribution interesting, as always.
I support new clause 13, tabled by the Opposition Front-Bench team, which would introduce a bankers bonus tax to fund a job guarantee for every young person who has been out of work for more than 12 months. History will judge this Budget as chaotic. It has been a Budget of U-turns—on pasties, on caravans, on skips and on charities. It should be remembered as a Budget for “millionaires row”—admittedly, that is a little sparse at the moment—but I hope it will not be remembered as the Budget that let the greedy bankers off the hook. Tonight, I want to put on the record the impact on the north-east.
The north-east requires an alternative vision for economic confidence, growth and jobs. The proposals in new clause 13 of a guaranteed paid job for people who have been out of work for 12 months, as suggested by the Institute of Public Policy Research North, would boost the process of regeneration that is so badly needed in my region. According to economists at IPPR North, coalition spending cuts have worsened the impact on our region’s economy and added to unemployment—especially youth unemployment—in the north-east. Well over 32,000 public sector jobs have been cut. I remind the House that unemployment in my region stands at 11.3%; 145,000 people are out of work. The private sector-led recovery that was promised has clearly not materialised in my region, at least, and a recent report from Northern TUC shows declining employment in the private sector.
In the Public Bill Committee, I gave some examples of the private sector haemorrhaging jobs in my constituency, and I do not propose to repeat that tonight. The problem we face—the hon. Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart), who is no longer in his place, raised this point—is that money is being sucked out of the region through public spending cuts, benefit cuts and the slashing of regeneration and infrastructure projects, worsening the economic problems. The Government, through their policies, are squeezing out demand from the regional and national economies. That is counter-productive, as it pushes up both the benefits bill and Government borrowing.
The Prime Minister and the Chancellor pretend that there is no alternative, but the Opposition recognise that politics is about priorities and making choices. Sadly, the Chancellor has chosen to give a £40,000 tax cut to 14,000 millionaires, while more and more people in my area are losing their jobs and young people in particular have little prospect of finding paid employment. He has also chosen to keep VAT, a deeply regressive tax that hurts the poor, at 20%.
IPPR North has said that business confidence is failing. The lack of confidence among employers has created a hire freeze across the north that looks likely to get worse. The unwillingness of employers to take on permanent staff only increases economic insecurity for ordinary households. Where vacancies do exist, they are often for low paid and insecure work. Given that more than 1 million young people are out of work, we need real action from the Government to stop the next generation from wasting away on unemployment benefits. That is where the real jobs guarantee comes in. We need to offer a jobs guarantee, especially to young people, to stimulate the economy and offer personal hope to each individual.