Wales Bill

Debate between Baroness Randerson and Lord Anderson of Swansea

Monday 24th November 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Randerson]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have spoken in this debate, and indeed throughout the numerous debates we have had on the Bill. My noble friend Lord Tyler started his response on this amendment by pointing out that all parties endorsed the agreement that led to votes at 16 in Scotland. I make it clear that I strongly appreciate the work that my noble friend has done over a very long period to raise awareness of, and develop a campaign generally on, votes at 16.

The noble Lord, Lord Wigley, made the point that he would have preferred there to be wider powers for votes at 16, but he will understand that this question is best considered as part of the devolution of further powers to the Assembly, which is something which is being considered at this time, with a view to agreement and announcements by St David’s Day. He also asked about the precedent for future referenda. These amendments deal with the referenda provided for in the Bill. There are no further referenda planned in Wales. I point out to the noble Lord that the Welsh Government have not yet committed to this referendum. My view is that we should get this one out of the way first before thinking of further referenda.

My noble friend Lord Crickhowell referred to the ad hoc approach on this. I believe that our general approach to the devolution of further powers for the Assembly overcomes this problem. The noble Lords, Lord Cormack and Lord Empey, also referred to the way in which the decisions were being made on votes at 16. There has been a response to the success of the votes at 16 in Scotland. There will be a full analysis of the impact of that in due course, but the success in Scotland has certainly sparked debate. Given the points that the noble Lord, Lord Morgan, made about the way in which we make constitutional decisions in this country, it is important that there is considerable public debate on this. One could say that that debate has started in Wales, in general terms, with the debate that was held in the Assembly in which an overwhelming majority of Assembly Members supported votes at 16.

The important thing is that the Wales Office and my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Wales are leading on the four-party discussions, in which the options for the future of devolution in Wales are being considered—the reserved powers model and the scope of any additional powers. That will include, for example, the devolution of powers over election arrangements. I believe that we are embarking on a period of considerable reflection and debate on the nature of our democracy in the UK as a whole, but we have already taken steps to ensure that that debate takes place in Wales. In line with the commitment made by my right honourable friend the Prime Minister on 19 September, we have made sure that Wales is at the heart of the debate on devolution.

My noble friend Lord Crickhowell asked two questions. One was related to the Electoral Commission’s concern about time constraints. I point out to him that the detail in the amendment ensures that time would be available in practice to assemble the electoral register required. The details in the amendment are based on a franchise Act of the Scottish Parliament. The Bill, as amended, will allow for 180 days for the Secretary of State to lay the order, plus the time that it would take to pass through both Houses of Parliament and the Assembly. There would be a pre-election period as well. If one takes all those periods of time together, they come to approximately seven months, which is the time that the Electoral Commission recommends for new legislation of this type. We believe that there is sufficient time to amass the register as required. My noble friend also asked about resources for awareness raising and so on. I assure him that we are well aware of the resource implications of this.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea (Lab)]

On that point, clearly local authorities are subject to considerable constraints. To be “well aware” of the resource implications begs many questions, such as: what are the resource implications? What discussions have there been already with the relevant authorities and are the Government satisfied that this can be done without taking on any extra staff?

[Baroness Randerson]

I did not say to the noble Lord that this would be possible without taking on additional staff. It is important that the views of the Electoral Commission have been communicated to noble Lords because it is obviously involved in the discussions. The Assembly has made its views very clear on this and there are resource implications from its perspective as well because, as several noble Lords have made clear today, it is important to bear in mind that there has to be a period of awareness raising and education as well as the sheer issue of assembling a register.

Wales Bill

Debate between Baroness Randerson and Lord Anderson of Swansea

Tuesday 11th November 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Randerson]

The noble Lord possibly does not recognise the importance of St David’s Day in Wales. However, the day is chosen not simply because it has significance within Wales but because it falls conveniently before the next election and before the start of the campaign proper of the next election.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea (Lab)]

The Minister has made a very important concession. Clearly, the Government have listened very carefully to what was said in Committee, but the problem remains of what vehicle will be used to bring this new consensus into operation. The noble Baroness will know how difficult it is to find a slot in the legislative programme. It is also very difficult, obviously, for the Government to give any firm undertakings. How does she respond to that?

[Baroness Randerson]

The noble Lord makes an important point. By moving forward on a cross-party basis, it is the intention to ensure that there is commitment across the four parties in Wales to ensure that the Bill can come forward in the early stages of the next Parliament.

Wales Bill

Debate between Baroness Randerson and Lord Anderson of Swansea

Tuesday 11th November 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Randerson]

The noble Lord does not seem to be entirely taking into account the considerable length of time that a convention would take. If it were going to do its job well, it would take a number of years to reach its conclusions and for those conclusions to be implemented. If there were to be an income tax referendum in Wales—I emphasise the word “if” because it is not a foregone conclusion—I hope it would take place before the outcome of any convention were decided.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea (Lab)]

A constitutional convention or royal commission could take a very long time. However, the referendum on income tax may never happen at all as the First Minister has said that he is not very interested in this concession. Therefore, what appears on the face of it to be a significant step on the part of the Government may in fact not be a step at all because such a referendum in respect of income tax provisions is not likely to take place.

[Baroness Randerson]

If the noble Lord is telling us here today that the Labour Government in Wales have already decided that under no circumstances would they call an income-tax referendum, I am very disappointed. The line I have heard from the Labour Party up to now is that it is open-minded to it as long as there is progress on other issues connected with devolution. I want to take this opportunity to repeat that the UK Government believe that there should be a referendum on income tax powers in Wales as soon as possible. That is something we would strongly encourage in Wales. We regard this as a significant step in Welsh devolution because we are planning to bring forward an amendment at Third Reading on this with the intention that it should be used.

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[Baroness Randerson]

Then I very much hope that the noble Lord expresses his joy by not moving his amendment.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

My Lords, I was hoping for a more positive response. As I may have said earlier, once upon a time I was a civil servant. In Whitehall there is a little book called something like 1,001 Ways of Avoiding a Decision. “Yes Minister” is in that same vein. The argument put forward is that this is not the vehicle; this is not the time. I would argue that it is the vehicle and it is the time. The Minister’s speech could have been made a month or two months ago. My noble friend Lord Elis-Thomas indicated that there have been two recent developments in the Assembly—the resolution and the response to committee recommendations—which suggest that there is all-party agreement in the Assembly.

[Baroness Randerson]

Does the noble Lord accept that discussions are going on at this time on whether these issues should be devolved to the Assembly? His amendment would simply have the effect of delaying things which have been agreed some considerable time ago as a result of the normal form of public consultation.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

The last thing I would argue for is delay. There is surely a case for delay if there are genuine differences between the various parties in discussion, but I understand that there is no lack of consensus, as indicated in the points made by my noble friend Lord Elis-Thomas. If the argument is that I may be seeking to delay, I can say that I am certainly not doing that. If the argument is that my amendment may have the effect of delaying, I would respond: what is the effect of what the noble Baroness is saying?

Will there be some agreement in time for Third Reading on this matter, on which there is substantial agreement and on which we have the precedent of the relationship between the Scottish Parliament and Westminster? Why the difference? If there is agreement why cannot it be done now, as indeed on the concession that the Government made in respect of the voting age? Is the Minister prepared to say, given the consensus, that this can be remedied and changed at Third Reading? If not, I think it is unfortunate but I would certainly not wish to proceed with the amendment, and I beg leave to withdraw it.

Wales Bill

Debate between Baroness Randerson and Lord Anderson of Swansea

Wednesday 15th October 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

My Lords, the Minister vastly overstates her case by claiming that this Bill would lead to a truly accountable Welsh Government. If we look at this objectively, it is pretty small beer. It is a Wales (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill. It was framed in a very different context from that which we have now, after the Scottish referendum. I assure her that the purpose of these two amendments—

[Baroness Randerson]

Is the noble Lord saying that a Bill that provides fiscal accountability for the very first time for the Welsh Assembly and Welsh Government is not a big step forward? Is he saying that the provision of borrowing powers for the first time for them is not also a big step forward? Does he not accept that the devolution settlement has been sadly lacking up to now because there has not been that proper accountability and that this is a vital development?

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

I hear what the Minister says about accountability but given the relatively small changes and the small amount of money involved in these taxes which are to be transferred, I doubt that one can properly say that there is real accountability. There is considerable scepticism in the Assembly in relation to the tax powers, which may be stillborn in any event. Yes, I accept that borrowing powers are a major innovation in the Bill but these borrowing powers, albeit in diluted form, are available to local authorities in Wales in any event so why not to the National Assembly?

On the general point she made, my purpose in having this formula of,

“may not come into force until”,

was clearly only to provoke a debate. It was not intended as a freeze or delaying device. I accept that after the result of the Scottish referendum we cannot return to business as usual. Finally, I also accept the point made by my noble friend Lord Howarth that there are great problems in the concept of a constitutional convention. Even if we have the so-called constitutional experts, no doubt there will be minority opinions—as there have been on similar issues. It may be extremely difficult to find—as we saw in respect of reform of your Lordships’ House—any reasonable consensus following that.

Having provoked the debate that I set out to provoke by using the formula that, I say again, was not intended to freeze in any way the progress of the Wales (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill, I will withdraw the amendment.

Wales Bill

Debate between Baroness Randerson and Lord Anderson of Swansea

Wednesday 15th October 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Randerson]

My Lords, I understand that this new chapter is not the easiest read. In fact, I found it quite good for getting to sleep on one occasion. However, it is important to recognise that this is a complex issue and has a direct relationship with things such as tax law, and when you get an indirect relationship with tax law. When you get into these things, the more you think about it, the more exceptions that occur to you to be considered.

The clauses in this Bill are very closely based on those in the Scotland Act and have been subject to the whole scrutiny process in that respect. I suggest that noble Lords think about how to deal with somebody who is a lorry driver or a shift worker. Every time you set a test, you can think of exceptions. Before the noble Lord, Lord Rowlands, thinks that being a Scottish parliamentarian and a Welsh parliamentarian in the same year is unusual, may I remind him that I call this the “Keith Raffan clause”? Keith Raffan was an MP in north Wales and then almost immediately an MSP in Scotland. He moved from Wales to Scotland.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea (Lab)]

Did he hold both positions in the same tax year?

[Baroness Randerson]

We are talking about the situation in the past. Keith Raffan moved from Wales to Scotland; he also moved from the Conservative Party to the Liberal Democrats. The whole thing is a relevant example: the thing you would imagine would never happen has already happened.

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[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

What is the answer to the good point made by the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, that this is appropriate for an order, rather than for the face of the Bill?

[Baroness Randerson]

That is a perfectly valid point, but we have it here in the Bill. I am also very conscious of the fact that noble Lords constantly complain that there is not enough in the Bill and that there should be more on its face and less in orders for the sake of transparency. On this occasion, you have total transparency. There is also, of course, the argument that we are talking about tax rules for individuals. In fact, if you have more on the face of the Bill, that could be said to be easier for individual taxpayers to follow.

May I finally make it absolutely clear to noble Lords that the noble Lord’s amendment would, in fact, mean taking away the simple test—which is the test, if you have only one home, of where your closest connection is—and replacing it with everyone counting days? Counting days is one way of dealing with it but not the simplest one. For most people, the simple thing is to ask, “Where is your home?” and, “Where do you spend most of your time?”. Taking away that option and leaving everyone counting days would possibly make life much more complex.

The noble Lord, Lord Richard, asked why not just say “resident in Wales”? I think noble Lords are well aware that the concept of where your residence is has caused a number of people a lot of trouble over the years. It is really important that we have clarity and absolute rules. There should be no doubt in people’s minds as to which rules they need apply.

Wales Bill

Debate between Baroness Randerson and Lord Anderson of Swansea

Monday 13th October 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Randerson]

They are being looked at in the context of Wales and Northern Ireland, yes. Piecemeal means something different from having solutions that suit the individual countries. Piecemeal is when you pick one thing off at a time without looking at the situation in the round. There are some areas where I would fully agree that the situation is very different from one country to another, and it is appropriate that we respond in different ways. There are other things, such as the conduct of elections, where one needs to look in the round at all three countries and see whether one can have a comprehensive approach—the kind of comprehensive look that my noble friend Lord Thomas referred to earlier—to devolution.

The Bill provides for a referendum to be held on the devolution of a portion of income tax, among other things, and ensures that the decision of when and whether to hold this referendum is in the hands of the Assembly. It is important to point out that issues such as referendums obviously have an impact across the UK and need to be properly considered by not only the Assembly but Peers and MPs. In devolved areas there is already provision in Section 64 of the Government of Wales Act 2006 for Welsh Ministers to hold a poll in all or part of Wales to determine how any of their functions should be exercised.

I hope that the work of the Cabinet committee on devolution will result in a less piecemeal approach to devolution in the UK, and I point out to noble Lords that the Secretary of State is working across the parties in Wales to achieve consensus on a more robust settlement for Wales.

The amendments, if accepted, would represent a fundamental change to the devolution settlement in Wales. It is therefore important that they are considered in the context of party manifestos for the 2015 general election, and I therefore ask noble Lords not to press their amendments.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

It is contended that this is a piecemeal approach and “not appropriate at the moment”. Frankly, the whole Bill is a piecemeal approach. The whole process of devolution has been piecemeal. Who can doubt that, following the result of the Scottish referendum, we are now in a new era? Everything has to be looked at again and this has necessarily to be piecemeal. I would not dismiss this sensible suggestion by suggesting that it is just piecemeal.

[Baroness Randerson]

My Lords, does the noble Lord consider that it is a sensible approach to say that the Bill, which for the first time introduces an important new principle of fiscal responsibility for the Assembly as well as borrowing powers, should be abandoned and we should go back to where we are?

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

I have not argued for a freeze or for abandonment. I am suggesting that we are in a new era following a new context and that that context means we are indeed moving piecemeal, bit by bit. So far as “piecemeal” is concerned, I made the point in an earlier debate: what about local government? Surely it is because there is some relation to local government that we have decided to move in a piecemeal manner. Also, it is contended that “it is not appropriate at the moment”, which begs the question: when will it be appropriate? Why should not Wales be different? Scotland has been different for some time. This is an area where Wales could be different. In my judgment, it should be a matter not just of good practice that the Wales Office chooses in its generosity to consult the Assembly on such matters: it should be a matter of law.

Once upon a time I was a civil servant and I could, if asked, choose 1,001 ways of dismissing something. I fear that there must be a lexicon in Whitehall from which people draw from time to time. We have managed to use two of those phrases from the lexicon: “it is not appropriate” and “it is not appropriate at the moment”. That is not good enough. Nevertheless, in the circumstances, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Wales Bill

Debate between Baroness Randerson and Lord Anderson of Swansea

Monday 13th October 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

That was by chance and by choice of the parties rather than by statute.

[Baroness Randerson]

The noble Lord is seeking to guarantee that gender balance. I am normally very supportive of any initiative that increases the number of female elected Members but, as the noble Baroness, Lady Gale, indicated, there would be an element of controversy. For example, if a female was elected as one of the Members and a male as the other Member, but the second male, shall we say, on the list had more votes than the winning female, or vice versa, there would be local controversy.

However, the main concern with this proposal is that it would reduce the element of proportionality. The offer of proportionality was intrinsic when Welsh people accepted the Assembly in the referendum. It was an integral part of what was offered.

The interlinked issues of the right number of Assembly Members, the optimum balance between constituency and regional Members and the system used to elect them need to be considered as part of the further step forward in devolution in Wales. If there are to be profound changes, there needs to be wider consultation. I know I will disappoint many Members when I say that I do not believe that the thinking behind these amendments is sufficiently mature for me to accept any of them. There needs to be further debate.

Wales Bill

Debate between Baroness Randerson and Lord Anderson of Swansea

Monday 13th October 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Randerson]

The noble and right reverend Lord raises an interesting point and I will obviously take it away and think about it. In so far as thought has been given to this so far, we have been thinking about the scope of those reserved powers being included in legislation at the same time as the principle of reserved powers. There would possibly be issues and problems with separating out the principle from the scope of those powers, but I will certainly reflect on what the noble and right reverend Lord has said.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea (Lab)]

On that point, potentially some substantial time may have elapsed before the principle of reserved powers comes into operation. The extent of the conferred powers has been shown by the Supreme Court judgment in fact to be highly flexible. To what extent has the Wales Office taken on board the effect of that judgment? Can we be assured that there will be no unnecessary legal challenges in future and that we have learnt the lessons of that judgment?

[Baroness Randerson]

Noble Lords can certainly be assured that, first, the Wales Office has studied that legal judgment very carefully and, secondly, that across government there is a determination to move ahead with devolution, and the development of devolution, on a cross-party basis, where it is possible to do so. There is a determination to ensure that we work proactively with the Welsh Government on issues. Indeed, that refers back to the Silk 2 recommendations, which included a number of mechanisms for improving relationships between the UK Government and the Welsh Government. That is very much at the forefront of our minds at this moment in terms of making progress.

In conclusion, our focus in the Bill is on implementing the first part of the Silk commission’s recommendations, and that must remain its focus. I urge noble Lords not to put the Bill at risk in the hope of something even better. Do not reject jam today in the hope of even more jam tomorrow. Use the progress in devolution that the Bill encompasses as a sound basis for further devolution. Do not for one moment entertain the idea that the best way of moving forward is to stand still and in some ways set this Bill aside and start again. We insist that this is a positive step forward and it is important that we demonstrate the cross-party agreement that exists on the further development of devolution.

Wales Bill

Debate between Baroness Randerson and Lord Anderson of Swansea

Tuesday 22nd July 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Randerson]

No I am not, but the natural process of the way in which the formula works means that in times of spending restraint, where we have been for the last four years, the convergence process, which worked over many years and made the formula more, shall I say, sparing in relation to Wales, ceased to operate and we have had divergence which has brought Wales to a position of greater fairness now than in the past. That means, however, that if we go back to times of financial plenty, there would be an issue once again. That has been recognised in the exchange of correspondence between the Chief Secretary to the Treasury and the Finance Minister in Wales.

In response to the general point made by noble Lords from the Labour Party about dual candidacy, as I predicted, when we read Hansard tomorrow it will appear as the most important matter in the Bill to members of the Labour Party. It is significant to remember that the purpose of doing this is to widen the pool of good candidates. Time and again people have raised the issue of how important it is to have scrutiny of the highest nature in the Welsh Assembly. It is not only a case of ensuring that there are more Assembly Members—whether you agree with that or not—but of ensuring that the best candidates can stand and get elected.

Many noble Lords on the Benches opposite referred to the Clwyd West situation. I refer to the Nick Bourne situation, if my noble friend will forgive me, where, as the leader of a party in the 2011 Assembly elections, he failed to gain a seat because his party had done so well. That is an anomaly, and it is important to bear in mind that within this system you will get that kind of anomaly. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Rowlands, who raised the issue of people who lose still getting into the Assembly, that that applies only if you think that elections should be on a winner takes all strategy. However, if you believe that elections are a way of ensuring that different strands of opinion are represented in our legislatures and Parliaments, you look at ways of ensuring that significant minority opinions are represented as well as majority opinions.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

The very able leader of a party in Wales lost under that system. The solution is simple: his party should have ensured that he sat in a winnable seat.

[Baroness Randerson]

There are many other answers connected with the problems and anomalies associated with that system. However, I repeat, this system was established by the Labour Party in the first Government of Wales Act. It may not be perfect but it provides an element of proportionality, although not perfect proportionality by any means. Even now within the Assembly, 50% of its members are from the Labour Party even though it gained under 40% of the vote. It is not perfect but it brings some proportionality to the Assembly, which was an essential part of getting the original referendum accepted by the people of Wales.

I conclude by saying that it has been a great pleasure to listen to the debate. I am sure that I will be answering in considerable detail the questions that I know noble Lords will put to me when we return from the Recess. I invite your Lordships to support the Bill.

Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions (Representations and Appeals) (Wales) Regulations 2013

Debate between Baroness Randerson and Lord Anderson of Swansea

Tuesday 29th January 2013 Grand Committee

[Baroness Randerson]

It is not my intention to do so. As I will make clear later when responding to the questions and comments of noble Lords, it is very difficult to know the extent to which this will spread throughout Wales, because it will be a devolved issue and not one for your Lordships’ House.

I will return to what I was saying in introducing the regulations. Persons who have received penalties can make representations to the relevant enforcement authority against the imposition of the penalties in particular cases and can appeal to an independent adjudicator if their representations are rejected by the local authority in Wales. The regulations set out the grounds for making representations and for appealing, and the schedule contains rules for the conduct of proceedings before adjudicators.

Using their executive powers in the Traffic Management Act 2004, Welsh Ministers propose to expand the range of offences for which civil enforcement may be used by local authorities in Wales to include bus lane contraventions and some moving traffic offences; for example, restrictions applying to cycle lanes, left or right turns and box junctions. These specific regulations are necessary to ensure that persons on whom civil penalties have been imposed in Wales can make representations against the imposition of the penalties and can appeal to an independent adjudicator if their representations are rejected by the local authority in Wales.

The regulations should be read in conjunction with a further set of regulations, the Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions (General Provisions) (Wales) Regulations 2013. Assuming that the regulations before the Committee today are approved, these regulations will be made by both the Lord Chancellor and Welsh Ministers and laid before both Parliament and the Assembly, subject to annulment. A copy of the proposed regulations is attached as an annexe to the Explanatory Memorandum.

The general provisions regulations must be signed by both the Lord Chancellor and Welsh Ministers. They provide detail in relation to the service of penalty charge notices and the immobilisation of vehicles. They also prescribe requirements in relation to the use of income generated from penalty charge notices and deal with the appointment of adjudicators by enforcement authorities.

Welsh Ministers will need to make several sets of regulations in addition to both these sets of regulations, subject only to Assembly procedure, to complete the package of legislation. The first of these, the Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions (Representations and Appeals) Removed Vehicles (Wales) Regulations 2013, deals with the appeal process where a vehicle owner does not agree that a vehicle should have been removed and/or disposed of by the local authority in Wales.

The regulations dealing with appeals against removed vehicles were laid in draft before the Assembly on 19 December and are subject to a resolution of the Assembly before being made. A further set of regulations subject to annulment in the Assembly is expected to be laid in due course. The Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions (Approved Devices) (Wales) Order 2013 will deal with technical specifications for devices used by local authorities in Wales to capture road traffic contraventions; for example, camera enforcement. My department continues to work closely with the Welsh Government on the delivery of the overall package.

In the interests of simplifying this area, the opportunity is being taken to consolidate the law. Provisions relating to civil enforcement of parking, bus lanes and moving traffic offences are being consolidated throughout the package of statutory instruments.

Under the Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Act 2007, parking adjudicators are a “listed tribunal” which is required to be consulted on these regulations. We have therefore consulted the Administrative Justice and Tribunals Council on the draft regulations and the council has confirmed that it is content.

The regulations before your Lordships today are entirely in line with the division of responsibilities between the Lord Chancellor and Welsh Ministers for civil enforcement provided for in the Traffic Management Act 2004. The regulations have been considered by the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee, which has determined that the special attention of the House need not be drawn to them. They have been considered also by the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, which has approved them without comment.

The Government’s role in bringing the regulations forward demonstrates our commitment to observing devolution arrangements and, where appropriate, to collaborating with the Welsh Government to enable them to deliver their commitments in Wales. I beg to move.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

My Lords, I have reassuringly good news for the Minister: I think it unlikely that these regulations will be contested. Clearly they are, as she said, part of a package of representation and appeals procedures that appear to be eminently sensible. Obviously, the regulations are not controversial. There is a strong consensus in favour of the regulations in Wales. As the Minister has said, they are part of a process of devolution, and of working together at both London and Cardiff levels.

I also agree with the Minister that the mischief aimed at is very clear. It is the assessment of the Welsh Government that the heavy workload of the police in Wales means that a relatively low priority is given to the enforcement of the bus lane offences. Therefore, the case is made that local authorities, which clearly have an interest in the enforcement of these regulations if they so choose, are likely to lead a more speedy and effective enforcement process. Indeed, the process is likely to encourage a greater use of buses. It is relevant and related to the good work of the Assembly done over “park and ride”, for example. It may well lead to a reduction in congestion, along with many other measures in the urban areas.

Briefly, to put this in context, bus lanes are by definition overwhelmingly relevant to urban areas. However, we have just heard that the financial support for buses and rural transport has been substantially reduced. The Assembly has just announced that in the coming financial year, 2013-14, the sum available for rural transport and buses is £25 million, whereas in the current year it is £33 million. That is a more than 25% reduction and obviously has implications not only for the increasing isolation of rural areas but for the elderly and low-income groups within those areas. It has relevance, too, to young people seeking jobs.

I obviously have a few questions for the Minister. Looking at the process which she has outlined, based on the 2004 Act, it is clearly highly convoluted and lengthy. I would be grateful if she could indicate whether she agrees with that, and what proposals she has for cutting that down. One obvious conclusion is that the involvement of the Ministry of Justice and the Lord Chancellor is really a fifth wheel to the coach. This is a series of decisions which should properly be made in and for Wales. There is no real contribution. Think of all the forests in Finland which have been cut down and the time wasted at the Westminster level for this type of regulation. I hope that the Minister and the Wales Office will be considering how best one can streamline these procedures. That, I am sure, would be much supported in Wales.

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[Baroness Randerson]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords for their contributions. I will preface my remarks and my attempts to answer all the questions—of which there were many—with a key point that I must stress. It is important to recognise that under the Traffic Management Act, the decision to expand the civil enforcement regime in Wales falls within the executive competence of Welsh Ministers. They have concluded that they should now make use of their powers under the Act in relation to bus lane and some moving traffic offences. That decision having been made by Welsh Ministers, these regulations are necessary to ensure that people upon whom civil penalties have been imposed are able to appeal to an independent adjudicator if their representations are rejected by a Welsh local authority. In other words, we are here today—as several noble Lords pointed out—to carry out the desires, wishes and policies of the Welsh Government, but we are doing so within the framework of UK legislation.

The noble Lord, Lord Anderson, called attention to the Welsh Government’s view that the police give low priority to traffic and bus lane offences because of their heavy workload. That is undoubtedly the case. I recall the police saying to me on several occasions when I was an elected representative that they did not have the time or resources to pay attention to such issues. It was one of the more frustrating parts of my role as an elected representative to try to deal with the concerns of local residents about things that were very important to them but which the police did not regard as a priority—for good, logical reasons in the larger scheme of law enforcement. The noble Lord referred to the fact that bus lanes are issues in urban areas. He called attention to the reduction in financial support for bus routes within Wales. I must point out that this is a budgetary decision entirely of the Welsh Government.

The noble Lord rightly pointed out that this is a lengthy and complex process. The intention is that all four instruments to which I referred will be made simultaneously, once Parliament has approved the Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions (Representations and Appeals) (Wales) Regulations, and the Assembly has approved the Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions (Representations and Appeals) Removed Vehicles (Wales) Regulations 2013. The general provisions of the regulations will come into force a minimum of 21 days later.

The process is complex because both the UK and Welsh Governments are involved. Noble Lords expressed frustration about this, which I understand. Perhaps I may gently point out that the Silk consultation is ongoing, and if noble Lords wish to make representations on this issue to the commission, that would be entirely in order in terms of the work that it is doing.

The noble Lords, Lord Anderson and Lord Wigley, referred to the considerable length of time since the consultation exercise was concluded. The time lapse can be explained by further work which was undertaken to develop the regulations with the adjudication service, with the British Parking Association and with local authorities. However, as noble Lords have said, this is a complex issue. We are working here entirely to the timetable of the Welsh Government. This is the Welsh Government’s policy. We are working with them to implement that policy. I am sure that we would all wish that it is now implemented as soon as possible.

Statistics were raised by the noble Lords, Lord Wigley and Lord Jones. These are, of course, new enforcement powers which local authorities will be able to use. Previous statistics do not fit these powers. The previous traffic offence statistics which exist are supplied by the police. They are not supplied on the same geographical basis. They are not, as far as I am aware, broken down into individual offences—although I will check that out and write to noble Lords if I am incorrect. Of course, those statistics reflect a police service which has said that it does not have the time to do this job as effectively as it would wish. Any previous statistics are therefore of relatively little application to the current situation. Of course, the police will continue to have the powers to do this, as they have at the moment. We are looking at local authority enforcement, but there will be a two-strand approach, as the police will also continue to enforce.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

The police will still have the powers but it is fair to assume, given the low priority, that in most cases they will try to pass this on to the local authority. There must be some guesstimate in government of how many additional employees there will be among the local authorities, otherwise one is totally in the dark on this.