Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (Northern Ireland) (Biometric data) Order 2015

Debate between Baroness Randerson and Lord McAvoy

Wednesday 4th March 2015 Grand Committee

[Lord McAvoy (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for her exposition of the order and the staff in her office for keeping me informed. This is another sensible step, albeit that it may be forced on us, in the devolution process that was first started by a Labour Government. Anything that arms the PSNI and the forces of law and order with the necessary requirements to combat potential acts of terrorism can only be welcomed. I want to make it clear that the Official Opposition welcome this addition to the PSNI’s powers. This order does not deal with national security outwith the legislative context of the Northern Ireland Assembly, but it does bring the PSNI into line with other forces. The ability to use evidence that is gathered is particularly useful.

I echo the comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Empey, about the potential costs and use of resources. We all know that the budget of the PSNI is under considerable strain, especially given the circumstances in north Belfast. There are reports that the efforts of some of the historical inquiry teams have had to be reduced or abandoned because of a stated lack of resources. I assure the Minister that we will be paying particular attention to this because any weakening in the resources available to the PSNI makes it less able to tackle potential acts or planned acts of terrorism. However, despite the problems around the need for this order, we welcome and support it.

[Baroness Randerson]

I thank noble Lords for their comments and their support in principle for the order. The noble Lord, Lord Empey, asked whether there was a risk that biometric data that could still lead to the conviction of those who have not yet been brought to justice for their crimes might be destroyed. The purpose of the order is to allow the PSNI to continue to use biometric data in the interests of national security or for the purposes of a terrorist investigation. It does not impose any destruction requirements on the PSNI.

The Criminal Justice Act (Northern Ireland) 2013, which was of course debated and approved by the Assembly, provides for the exemptions to the legal requirement to destroy an individual’s biometric data that have been introduced in response to the Marper judgment. During the Marper case, the European Court of Human Rights rejected the argument that the indefinite retention of biometric data was justified for the purposes of preventing crime. The court ruled that the blanket and indefinite retention policy of the UK did not strike the appropriate balance between public interest and the rights of the individual. The noble Lord will know that we are bound by that judgment.

Both the noble Lord, Lord Empey, and the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, referred very rightly to the issue of resources. As the purpose of the order is to allow the PSNI to continue to use biometric data in the interests of national security or for the purposes of a terrorist investigation, no resource burden is imposed by virtue of the order that is before the Committee. However, the implementation of the new legislative regime for the retention of biometric data, provided for by the Criminal Justice Act (Northern Ireland) 2013, has of course created a significant resource burden, as is noted in the Explanatory Memorandum, which noble Lords have referred to. It has been necessary to allocate resource to reviewing all biometric data currently held by the PSNI, the configuration of IT for their use and staff training. This is an inevitable consequence of the ruling of the European Court.

The noble Lord, Lord Empey, asked about the mechanisms to be put in place to ensure the oversight of police retention of biometric data, which is not subject to the destruction requirements. The independent Biometrics Commissioner, to whom the noble Lord referred, will have the power to review the making of every national security determination, including those made by the chief constable of the PSNI. If the commissioner is not satisfied that the retention of any material is necessary on national security grounds, he can order the material to be destroyed. The Biometrics Commissioner’s first annual report was laid before Parliament in November 2014. In his report, the commissioner reveals that relatively few national security determinations relating to England and Wales, where his powers currently lie, have been received by his office to date.

I hope that those responses are helpful to noble Lords. I commend the order to the Committee.

Northern Ireland

Debate between Baroness Randerson and Lord McAvoy

Thursday 29th January 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Randerson]

I am sure that the Prime Minister’s Office will take note of my noble friend’s comments. However, it is absolutely clear that the Prime Minister was fully engaged in the Stormont House process and went to Northern Ireland to push the process along; indeed, a successful conclusion was reached very soon after that visit. I therefore reject the idea that the Prime Minister has not been engaged.

[Lord McAvoy (Lab)]

My Lords, will the Minister accept that the best form of integration is economic and social integration? Child poverty in Northern Ireland is set to rise, and the Joseph Rowntree Foundation has found that Northern Ireland’s labour market and poverty rates have deteriorated over the past five years. Inequality and intergenerational deprivation is corrosive in any society, but in Northern Ireland it becomes an environment to exploit people’s fears. The Labour Party has established the Heenan-Anderson Independent Commission, which is a ground-breaking attempt to tackle inequality in Northern Ireland and make recommendations to the next Labour Government. Can the Minister outline what specific economic measures have been brought in by the Government to help conditions in Northern Ireland?

[Baroness Randerson]

My Lords, Northern Ireland has been subject to the same attempts at economic stimulus that the UK Government have made throughout the land. It is important to bear in mind that in addition to the strenuous efforts that we have made to deal with the particularly strong problems in Northern Ireland, we have, for example, ensured that the G8 summit, the Giro d’Italia and the World Police and Fire Games were held there. There has of course been a very generous financial package of nearly £2 billion as part of the recent Stormont House agreement. That should set Northern Ireland on the step towards recovery, but it remains important that a peaceful society develops there because the Troubles caused so much economic poverty.

Northern Ireland: On-the-Runs Scheme

Debate between Baroness Randerson and Lord McAvoy

Tuesday 27th January 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord McAvoy (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for repeating the Secretary of State’s Statement in the House of Commons. The revelation yesterday regarding the collapse of the inquest into the murder of Gareth O’Connor has caused further justifiable concern and anxiety in Northern Ireland. Our thoughts today must and should be with the O’Connor family. Like so many of those left behind, they sought truth and justice about what happened to Gareth in 2003. They have waited 12 long years for an inquest into the death of their son. The thought of preparing for a week-long inquest would have been harrowing for the family. This development has made a highly stressful situation even worse. News of another error from the administrative scheme for the on-the-runs is devastating, following the catastrophic error in the Downey case last year.

We have apologised for the Downey error, and do so again for the error in the O’Connor case. In the same way as this scheme never offered amnesty, it was also never intended to cover alleged offences committed after the signing of the Good Friday agreement. The delay in the coroner and the family being made aware of the error is deeply troubling. The Northern Ireland Office and the police knew about the case, and indeed—as the Minister has indicated—it was referred to in the Hallett report.

I have some questions for the Minister. Why did the Northern Ireland Office not ensure that this family were told of the error in the immediate aftermath of the Hallett report? How many other potential specific errors identified in the Hallett report are the Northern Ireland Office currently investigating? In view of the financial pressures facing the Police Service of Northern Ireland, what is the Minister’s estimate of the time it will take to review all the cases covered by the on-the-run scheme? Finally, in a related matter which has caused similar concerns, can the Minister give the House an update on investigations on the missing information as regards the royal prerogative before 1997?

[Baroness Randerson]

The noble Lord made a number of important points and asked a number of questions. I am very pleased to hear that the noble Lord has echoed the apologies already made by the PSNI and by the Secretary of State to the family concerned. Why were they not told of the error earlier? It is a very complex situation in terms of the independence of the judiciary and of the inquest service. However, it is important to bear in mind that the Secretary of State and the PSNI have apologised to the family for the impact of this new development on them. We fully understand the problems it raises for them.

The noble Lord asked for the number of errors that were identified in the Hallett report. The Hallett report identified the Downey case and two other errors, of which this is one, and there are 36 cases where there is concern. All these are being reinvestigated by the PSNI as part of Operation Redfield.

The noble Lord asked how long this will take. I can be no more satisfactory in my answer than to say a number of years, in the estimation of the PSNI. He also asked for an update on the information relating to the royal prerogative of mercy. Following the Hallett report, the Northern Ireland Office has taken steps to improve its administrative systems. Work is ongoing with stakeholders to identify if there is any more material to be found.

Northern Ireland: National Crime Agency

Debate between Baroness Randerson and Lord McAvoy

Tuesday 4th November 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Randerson]

My right honourable friend the Secretary of State discussed these issues with the political parties last week as part of the wider issues that were being discussed.

[Lord McAvoy (Lab)]

My Lords, with no disrespect to the Minister, we have heard before stories about it happening soon and all the rest of it. We have repeatedly asked for the Secretary of State to get involved, which would show the urgency of the situation. The security of the people of Northern Ireland is continually put at risk by the absence of participation in the National Crime Agency’s operations. Instead of merely urging the parties to get together, should not the Secretary of State stop hiding behind the figure of David Ford and get some action on the Government’s own account?

[Baroness Randerson]

I understand the frustration that the noble Lord expresses, but I can assure him that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State has been constantly involved in this issue and is regularly in discussions with the political parties. However, the noble Lord is correct in drawing attention to the fact that the same protection is not afforded to the people of Northern Ireland while the issue of the NCA is unresolved. I can assure him that we are extremely keen to reach agreement on this.

Northern Ireland: National Crime Agency

Debate between Baroness Randerson and Lord McAvoy

Wednesday 16th July 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Randerson]

My Lords, in our view it is clearly in the national interest that the National Crime Agency is fully operational throughout all parts of the United Kingdom. However, the Sewel convention must apply at this point, and it is clear that we do not normally intervene and legislate on matters within the competence of the devolved Administrations without their consent.

[Lord McAvoy (Lab)]

My Lords, this is no nationalist versus unionist argument; clearly it is about the national interest. The non-involvement of the National Crime Agency in Northern Ireland was highlighted the other day when a Treasury Minister, from that Dispatch Box, indicated that HMRC was having difficulty in collecting taxes, VAT and so on. Despite the mention of the Sewel convention and the Justice Minister, surely it is time that some leadership was shown by the Northern Ireland Office in bringing these people together to get agreement, in the national interest.

[Baroness Randerson]

My Lords, the Government have taken the view that agreement is most likely to be obtained under the leadership of David Ford, the Justice Minister, who, after all, has support across the parties in Northern Ireland. It is important that we ensure that his discussions with the parties and with Keith Bristow of the National Crime Agency, which are active and ongoing, are facilitated. I assure noble Lords that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland is fully engaged in the process, and that the Home Secretary remains prepared to consider proposals that are put forward.

Northern Ireland: On-the-runs

Debate between Baroness Randerson and Lord McAvoy

Tuesday 8th April 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Randerson]

The intention of the letters was to present a statement of fact at a point in time. As such, they did not grant immunity, exemption or amnesty. To do that would have required legislation.

[Lord McAvoy (Lab)]

My Lords, we should never forget those members of our Armed Forces who lost their lives in the Hyde Park bombing, their families and all victims of the other atrocities associated with the Troubles in Northern Ireland.

As part of a complex process that made peace and stability in Northern Ireland possible, the previous Labour Government issued on-the-run letters to people who had reason to believe that they might be under investigation. As stated by both the Opposition and the Government, that was not an amnesty and letters made clear to recipients that, should evidence come to light in future, they could be prosecuted. However, the scheme once again draws attention to the need for long-term solutions on issues of the past. Can the Minister reassure the House that she still believes that a positive outcome will be reached from the ongoing all-party talks, and are the Government fully engaged in trying to make that happen?

Anonymous Registration (Northern Ireland) Order 2014

Debate between Baroness Randerson and Lord McAvoy

Monday 31st March 2014 Grand Committee

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Wales Office (Baroness Randerson) (LD)]

My Lords, the order was laid before the House on 24 February. It is the first in a series of six statutory instruments to establish a scheme of anonymous registration in Northern Ireland. Four of those instruments were published for consultation in September of last year. The changes are being introduced in a series of instruments for technical reasons.

This first order extends provisions made for Great Britain in primary legislation to Northern Ireland, with amendments to reflect some differences in the electoral systems in Northern Ireland. It also makes other changes required to primary legislation for Northern Ireland, predominantly in relation to local elections. Other instruments to follow will include regulations to implement the system of anonymous registration in respect of different elections and to prescribe provisions relating to political donations by anonymous electors.

As noble Lords will know, the full electoral register lists the name and address of everyone who is entitled to vote. This is used mainly for elections and referendums but can be used for other purposes, such as the prevention and detection of crime and eligibility for jury service. It may also be seen on request by any member of the public, under supervision. Anonymous registration ensures that the names and addresses of individuals who are at risk do not appear on the full register. Those at risk may include victims of domestic violence, witnesses in certain criminal cases and other vulnerable people who wish to vote but whose safety could be compromised by the inclusion of their details on the electoral register.

As in Great Britain, individuals will qualify for anonymous registration if the safety of the applicant or of another person in their household would be at risk if the register contained their name or address. I will bring regulations before the House later this year which will detail the evidence required to show that a person is at risk. As in the draft regulations published last September, a person will be able to show that they are at risk either by presenting a court order demonstrating the risk or by obtaining an attestation from a senior professional—for example, someone in the police—stating that they are at risk.

If a person is shown to be at risk, the scheme works by replacing the name and address of vulnerable individuals in the register with a number. A full list of those voters will be held securely by the chief electoral officer for cross-referencing. This prevents their details being available to someone who might try to trace their whereabouts by means of the electoral register.

Anonymous registration was introduced in Great Britain by Section 10 of and Schedule 1 to the Electoral Administration Act 2006. The scheme was not extended to Northern Ireland at the time due to a number of differences in Northern Ireland that needed to be taken into account. These differences included the additional checks on identity used in Northern Ireland to prevent electoral fraud, and the operation of the jury system in Northern Ireland. However, Section 1 of the Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2006 gave the Secretary of State the power to make equivalent provision for Northern Ireland by Order in Council at a later date.

Many of the Great Britain provisions are extended to Northern Ireland without amendment in this order, but there are four main differences between the provisions for Great Britain and those being put in place for Northern Ireland, either in this order or in the instruments that will follow.

First, the duration of an anonymous entry will be longer than it is in Great Britain. Applications for an anonymous entry must be made annually in Great Britain, in the same way as applications for registration. In Northern Ireland, an anonymous entry can last for a maximum of five years. This makes practical sense in the context of the continuous registration system in Northern Ireland. If persons do not have to reapply to be registered annually, it would be onerous to require vulnerable individuals to reapply for an anonymous entry on an annual basis. This difference is also intended to help the PSNI and other bodies manage the greater volumes of applications for attestations that are expected in Northern Ireland because of the security situation there and the number of people who may be considered at risk.

In view of the longer, five-year timeframe in Northern Ireland, this order allows the chief electoral officer to terminate a person’s entitlement to an anonymous entry in some circumstances. The regulations brought forward later this year will set out the details of how the chief electoral officer can make this determination. For example, if the chief electoral officer receives information that a person is no longer part of the household to whom the relevant evidence applies, their entitlement to anonymous registration should be reviewed.

Secondly, as noble Lords will be aware, all voters in Northern Ireland are required to show photographic identification at the polling station to receive their ballot paper. This is incompatible with the principle of maintaining a voter’s anonymity and so, under this order, those with an anonymous entry will not be able to vote in person. Instead, this order makes provision for anonymous electors to be automatically eligible for a postal vote. This is to prevent a person who is anonymously registered being questioned at a polling station about their identity.

Thirdly, linked to the provisions on postal voting, the order makes it possible for an anonymous elector to submit a tendered ballot paper by post. It is possible to apply for a tendered ballot paper when a person states that they have lost their ballot paper or believes someone else has voted on their behalf. However, a tendered ballot paper can usually be submitted only in person at the polling station. Persons with an anonymous entry will be allowed to submit a tendered ballot paper by post instead to prevent them being disadvantaged by the requirement to use a postal vote.

Lastly, persons with anonymous entries will remain eligible for jury service, as they are in Great Britain. However, because jury service selection operates in a different way in Northern Ireland, the provisions in this order that deal with this matter differ from the England and Wales provisions. The order ensures that any anonymous elector information is protected when the jurors list is passed from the chief electoral officer to the Courts and Tribunals Service.

There have been two phases of consultation on anonymous registration in Northern Ireland. The first was conducted by the previous Government in 2008. The second took place in 2013 on the draft legislation. The consultations have allowed us to take account of the views of a range of devolved bodies that will be involved in implementing the scheme, including the Northern Ireland Courts and Tribunals Service, the Police Service of Northern Ireland and health and social care boards, as well as political parties and groups representing those most likely to benefit from the new system.

I hope that noble Lords will agree it is important that people who wish to exercise their right to vote are able to do so without fear or threat to their safety. This order gives vulnerable people in Northern Ireland the same protection as those in Great Britain. I commend it to the Committee.

[Lord McAvoy (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for her thorough exposition of the proposed legislation. I should say right from the start—because it always needs to be said in relation to Northern Ireland—that we are fully supportive of the legislation. My honourable friend in the House of Commons, Stephen Pound, in a very entertaining speech, asked a number of questions. Some of them were not, to my book, completely answered, so I will go through them and see if I can get a wee bit more information out of the noble Baroness.

It has been stated by the Minister and others that the necessity for this legislation in Northern Ireland is—as it is in the rest of the United Kingdom—mainly to support women in what they face when being pursued by former partners or husbands or subjected to violence. So the legislation is quite in order.

However, on the higher percentage that is envisaged, it is worth commenting that the higher percentage of anonymous voting approvals for Northern Ireland is, according to the words of Mr Robathan, 40 times greater in Northern Ireland than in the rest of the United Kingdom. That signifies that there is a continuing situation in which people need anonymity in voting, and the sooner we can move away from that, the better. However, the need for this legislation is still quite clear because women have enough to put up with without being subjected to that as well.

Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill

Debate between Baroness Randerson and Lord McAvoy

Tuesday 4th March 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord McAvoy]

It is a matter of judgment as to whether one takes that point of view or not. I do not share the noble Lord’s point of view. I still insist that the United Kingdom and Northern Ireland are not ready yet. I am repeating myself, although I was trying not to. Last week, I referred to the fact that we are still on that rocky road. This amendment does not have the support of the Opposition.

[Baroness Randerson]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Empey, for his introductory speech. I want to deal briefly with the points he made about the letters that were sent. Perhaps I may say yet again that because these were purely factual letters, they were of course non-statutory. Therefore, they were not the subject of any formal transfer provisions in the legislation that accompanied devolution in 2010. The noble Lord asked questions about further evidence and how it would be treated. I refer him to my earlier answer to the noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, because it is important we remember that this is the subject of part of the inquiry.

As I have said previously, the noble Lord, Lord Empey, and my noble friend Lord Lexden, have done us a great service in raising the profile of this issue through the various amendments that have been tabled. At Report, I indicated that the Government would consider the matter further and set out their position at Third Reading. I am sorry to disappoint the noble Lords but we will not be supporting this amendment. As I have said previously, the creation of opportunities for responsible opposition in the Assembly would be a progressive step. As a Member of the Government here in Westminster I know only too well how much an Opposition can keep us on our toes. I think that noble Lords have illustrated that point very effectively during the passage of this Bill. It would be a welcome development if similar arrangements were put in place in Northern Ireland. I believe that the Assembly’s reputation would be enhanced if that were to happen.

We are, however, talking about the Assembly’s internal procedures and it is important that we do not make changes to those without, at the least, having consulted the Assembly. I know that I have mentioned this previously but the Government consider that it is important that the Assembly should be consulted. “Consulted” implies that one would take account of their expressed view.

In previous debates, it was noted that the Assembly could provide for an Opposition through its existing standing orders. It was also noted that the rights accorded to an Opposition created in this way could be revoked at the behest of the largest parties in the Assembly. It is right and proper that any Opposition in the Assembly should have the ability to carry out their functions without fear of losing their status by virtue of having challenged the Executive. It is also right that opposition parties should have sufficient status if they are to be truly effective in holding the Executive to account. To the noble Lord, Lord Kilclooney, who asked what incentive there was to become a member of the Opposition, I say that the original amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Empey, envisaged the potential status that would come to opposition parties: that would be part of the incentive.

The noble Lord’s amendment attempts to offer a safeguard in the shape of the Secretary of State’s involvement. I pay tribute to the effort that the noble Lord has expended in refining his successive amendments to the Bill. However, we still do not believe that this amendment is the appropriate means of ensuring more effective opposition. We believe that it would be inappropriate in any circumstances for the Secretary of State to have such a direct role in the internal procedures of the Assembly, as envisaged in the amendment—the more so when the Assembly, as I said, has not been consulted.

The noble Lord will point out that his amendment would allow no role to the Secretary of State unless the Assembly took the first step. Even so, given that the Assembly has not been consulted, our taking this step now could be misunderstood by at least some in Belfast as hostile interference in the Assembly’s procedures. The consequences of that would be negative for the long-term prospects of facilitating opposition. As the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, said, there has been discussion of this in recent years in the Assembly, and there was no consensus. I will add that we also see technical difficulties with this amendment. I would not normally draw attention to them, but we are now at the stage where such difficulties cannot be remedied.

I welcome the comment in Committee of the noble Lord, Lord Browne, that his party was willing to support additional resources and speaking time for genuine opposition. I hope that his party will deliver on this commitment and that other parties in the Assembly will share that view. I am also encouraged by the Private Member’s Bill brought forward by Mr John McCallister in the Assembly, and I hope that it will spur more debate. I hope that the Assembly, when it debates the Bill, will take cognisance of the various points that have been raised here.

In the mean time, the Government will impress on the parties in Northern Ireland their desire to see an effective Opposition in the Assembly and will consider ways in which we might do so. I hope that noble Lords will feel reassured that this is an issue that the Government take seriously and on which we hope to see real and meaningful progress in future. I hope that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord McAvoy]

My Lords, at the risk of upsetting the noble Lord, Lord Empey, I join him in supporting this amendment. It would have been a lot better if we had discussed this on Report but the flexibility shown by the Minister, referred to by other noble Lords, indicates that once again there has been a success in talking to people.

As the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, said, this amendment requires the Secretary of State to lay a report in Parliament at least three months prior to bringing any order on the devolution of responsibilities in respect of the Civil Service Commissioners. The report should set out the Secretary of State’s view of the effect such an order would have on the impartiality of the Northern Ireland Civil Service, including the merit principle for appointments and the independence of the Civil Service Commissioners. The amendment marks a move towards ensuring the impartiality of the Northern Ireland Civil Service, and we welcome it.

There are key differences between the Northern Ireland Civil Service and the Westminster Civil Service. Senior civil servants in Northern Ireland have a higher profile than their counterparts in the rest of the United Kingdom. This is partly because, particularly when the Assembly has been suspended or there have been different governance arrangements, it has often been a civil servant who has undertaken the role that Ministers have here in defending or promoting policies and engaging with the public. The difference is cultural and practical. Due to these marked differences, the Northern Ireland Civil Service would benefit from a requirement for the Secretary of State to produce a report that outlines the effect such an order would have on the impartiality of the Civil Service, including the merit principle for appointments and independence of the Civil Service Commissioners. I am delighted to welcome the amendment on behalf of the Opposition.

[Baroness Randerson]

I thank noble Lords for their comments. Specifically, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Bew, for the very constructive comments he has made on this throughout. My response to his specific question is that so much of the Civil Service in Northern Ireland is already either devolved or reserved and this was the one aspect that was still within the purview of the UK Government. Therefore, it is the logical next step to put this in the same category as the procedures and functions of the Civil Service Commissioners.

I say to my noble friend Lord Alderdice and the noble Lord, Lord Empey, that there are now strong safeguards on the condition and position of the Civil Service Commissioners. Indeed, this could be a real improvement on the status quo, and it is important. The noble Lord, Lord Brooke, mentioned the comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Butler, in an earlier debate. The noble Lord, Lord Butler, has not pursued those issues with me directly but I hope that he is now content, particularly because of the commitment in this amendment to provide for a debate on the Secretary of State’s report. That ensures that the views of noble Lords who have a particular interest in this issue will be heard. I commend the amendment to the House.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord McAvoy]

My Lords, the Opposition support this amendment and commend the Minister and the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, for their discussions and decision to bring it forward. Everyone agrees about the fundamental importance of human rights to the exercise of devolved government in Northern Ireland. It is also agreed that this is ensured through the independence of the Human Rights Commission and the impartial nature of its work. The preservation of this impartiality will be foremost in discussions when we come to actually devolve these powers. The Government’s amendments mark a move in the right direction to enable that. They have our full support.

[Baroness Randerson]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, for his support for this amendment and amendments moved throughout this afternoon. To answer my noble friend Lord Alderdice, we believe we have now taken a belt-and-braces approach to this issue. We accept its considerable importance but surely it is of the same order of importance to Northern Ireland as policing and justice, both of which have been successfully devolved to the Northern Ireland Assembly. The Government hear my noble friend’s concerns and take note. We will certainly bear in mind that his intention would be to vote against anything that did not come up to what he judged to be the appropriate approach.

On the question asked by the noble Baroness, Lady O’Neill, we are well aware of the impact of one human rights institution on another in terms of their reputation. That is one reason why we may be looking towards the Scottish model, because it has been successful in providing answerability to the Scottish Parliament. Although that is not absolutely specified in the report that the Secretary of State would make to Parliament, it is in the amendment as something of which account has to be taken.

A future Government would be mindful, of course, of the risks to the UK’s reputation in human rights issues as a whole. I commend the amendment to the House.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Randerson]

My Lords, as noble Lords will be aware, Clause 24 amends an order-making power already passed in the Protection of Freedom Act 2012 to allow us to take forward by order the changes to the new biometric framework in the reserved and excepted fields, which the Northern Ireland Department of Justice could not legislate for within its Criminal Justice Bill, which received Royal Assent in April 2013. It will allow us to bring the position in Northern Ireland with regard to the retention, use and destruction of biometric data in the interests of national security, or for the purposes of a terrorist investigation, into line with that in Great Britain.

The amendment makes a technical change to the commencement of Clause 24. As the Bill is drafted, the clause would come into force on the day the Act is passed. However, the order-making power in the Protection of Freedoms Act—paragraph 8 of Schedule 1 —is not yet in force. The proposed change to commencement is intended to avoid a situation where the amendment to the order-making power in Clause 24 comes into force before the power itself, which would have no practical effect and which I understand is technically undesirable. This is a technical change to the clause which I hope that the House will feel able to support, as it is not an issue that has raised concern previously.

Before I sit down, I take this opportunity to thank all those who have participated in debate on the Bill. Any Minister attempting to shepherd a Bill through this House feels some trepidation because of the great reservoir of expertise and experience here. As a relative newcomer to Northern Ireland, I was certainly very aware that I could not hope to match the knowledge of some noble Lords, who have first-hand experience of many of the events which led to the settlement we have today.

I also want to thank the Bill team and other Northern Ireland Office officials, who have worked so hard on the Bill and have made huge efforts to address and take account of the concerns raised by noble Lords in debate. I am grateful for the patience and the willingness that has been shown by noble Lords to attend not only debates but the many meetings we have organised outside this Chamber. I respect the persistence that has been evident in raising those issues of most concern. I believe that the Bill has been greatly improved as a result of our dialogue.

We have developed our understanding of some of the issues which set the context for this Bill: the nature of devolution; the limits of government power and influence in devolved matters; the operation of the agreements which established the current settlement in Northern Ireland; and the scope for development of those institutions. Those debates are important, not just for Northern Ireland, but for our constitution throughout the UK.

I introduced this Bill on a note of optimism as a Bill for more normal times. It is the first Bill in recent times not to have been subject to emergency procedures in Northern Ireland. I cannot conclude our debate without acknowledging the extent to which political peace has been challenged, not least by the events of the past week. It has been a difficult time for Northern Ireland, particularly for those who have suffered as a result of the atrocities of the past. Our thoughts must be with them at this time.

I believe that there is still reason for cautious optimism. Despite the real anger and hurt felt by many on both sides of the community, the devolved institutions have avoided crisis and devolved government continues. This underlines the progress that has been made in Northern Ireland as a result of the peace process. While ensuring that we deal properly with the past, it remains essential that our determination to build a shared and prosperous future in Northern Ireland is unwavering.

The Bill is, I believe, a modest way of making a contribution to fulfilling that objective, and I commend it to the House.

[Lord McAvoy]

My Lords—

Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill

Debate between Baroness Randerson and Lord McAvoy

Tuesday 25th February 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord McAvoy]

My Lords, I understand the concerns that have led the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, to table this amendment. The discussion of human rights has played an important part in the establishment of devolved structures within Northern Ireland. Today the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission continues to play a key role in maintaining these institutions. Throughout the Assembly’s legislative process, the Human Rights Commission can intervene at any point to prevent the governing parties from creating legislation that does not conform to proper international standards of human rights. Given the importance of the commission to the legislative process, there is an understandable need to preserve its independence and impartiality.

The noble Lord, Lord Kilclooney, echoed by the noble Lord, Lord Empey, mentioned that there seems to be an air of lack of faith in the Assembly in Northern Ireland. There is certainly anecdotal evidence in conversations to justify that complaint, or at least to make a valid one. I urge all representatives from Northern Ireland and noble Lords and noble Baronesses here to use what influence they can to try to move things along. If the public start to lose faith in the Assembly, we are all in trouble, so we should all be trying to inspire faith in it. The noble Lord, Lord Kilclooney, was absolutely right to refer to that.

In Northern Ireland, the devolution of the relevant power to the Assembly would appear to offer a firm guarantee of the commission’s continued independence. While recognising the valid intent of the amendment, I think it would be a mistake to accept it at this time. As acknowledged by the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, a very valuable service is being performed by having this discussion.

The actual powers concerning the Human Rights Commission have not yet been devolved. Prior to the actual devolution, the Government have committed to carrying out extensive consultation and encouraging debate within Northern Ireland. It will not be until after this that the actual form that the devolution of these powers will take will be decided. Only then will it potentially be necessary to consider an amendment such as this.

Everyone agrees about the fundamental importance of human rights to the exercise of devolved government in Northern Ireland. It is also agreed that this is ensured through the independence of the Human Rights Commission and the impartial nature of its work. The preservation of this impartiality will be foremost in discussion when we come to actually devolve these powers. However, since the precise model for the devolution of these powers has not yet been agreed—and it will only be agreed after consultation within Northern Ireland, which will hopefully include a large say for the public—I feel that at this time the amendment has been quite rightly described as a probing amendment and the Official Opposition cannot support it.

The noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, made a strong case that the devolution of these responsibilities should be to the Assembly, as is the case in Scotland. The point was made in Committee that the impartiality and independence of the commission is crucial and must be both retained and maintained. Therefore, we welcome the Government’s commitment to ensure that proper consultation and debate on this takes place in Northern Ireland before a vote is taken to devolve these responsibilities. I conclude by thanking once again the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, for the service that he has provided the House.

[Baroness Randerson]

My Lords, I hear strong echoes in this debate of the concerns raised in the previous debate. The Government have a similar potential solution to assuage the concerns of noble Lords. I am grateful to my noble friend for tabling this amendment and I understand his concerns in relation to the independence of the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission should it be devolved in future. I make that point to my noble friend Lord Lester: it is by no means a foregone conclusion that the Human Rights Commission will be devolved in the future. It will be subject, of course, to consultation and discussion.

Indeed, let me say at once that we share the concerns that several noble Lords have expressed today and we are clear that they must be addressed before devolution. For that reason we will propose amendments at Third Reading that will ensure that they are addressed, albeit not quite in the way suggested in my noble friend’s amendment. It is worth reminding the House that Clause 11 of the Bill moves certain functions relating to the commission from the excepted to the reserved category.

The Government made a commitment in their response to the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee’s pre-legislative scrutiny report on the draft version of this Bill to consult formally on any future devolution of responsibilities relating to the commission and the other arm’s-length bodies discussed, prior to any devolution taking place. I want to reiterate that commitment today. The concerns expressed in the debates here will obviously inform that consultation. We will also ensure that the commission retains its responsibility for the scrutiny of non-devolved matters relating to Northern Ireland—such as national security and terrorism—in the event of any future devolution of responsibilities for the institution.

My noble friend raised the issue of the Belgrade and Paris principles. The Government are fully aware of the huge significance of those principles and we are absolutely committed to the idea that they are fundamental to the future independence of the Human Rights Commission. Nothing we do in future will challenge that. We know the importance that the commission attaches to the high regard in which it is held internationally.

At this stage we are not considering in detail the model for how eventual devolution will look. The Bill would simply move certain policy areas from the excepted to the reserved field so that devolution could take place by order later. That would require a vote in the Assembly to accept the new powers. Ultimately it would be for the devolved institutions to determine the structures and lines of accountability they wanted in operation. However, it seems obvious that if there are already models in operation which seem to work well they could provide a suitable starting point when these issues are considered in detail. In Scotland, for example, the devolution is to the Scottish Parliament, which has proved to be a very successful model.

As I said, the model of devolution needs to be determined in the light of the public consultation. There are many detailed questions to be addressed about the devolved arrangements, if it is eventually decided to devolve. We obviously have to take the views of the Human Rights Commission itself into account, those of others in the community, those of the receiving institutions, the Assembly and the Executive. Your Lordships will have an opportunity to debate those detailed arrangements at a later stage. Any proposal to devolve requires a vote here, as well as in another place and in the Assembly. However, we believe that it would be right to put on record now the view of the House that those questions require close scrutiny.

The noble Lord, Lord Empey, expressed the view several times during the debate today and previously that the Government are deliberately pushing things off the desk. I say to him and to others who go along with his viewpoint that there is another way of looking at this. The Government see this as part of building a broader base for devolution in Northern Ireland. As the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, said, it is part of moving things on in Northern Ireland and creating a more normal political model. It is hoped that by broadening the base of devolution in Northern Ireland it will be made firmer and stronger as a result. However, to noble Lords who expressed concerns about this, I acknowledge that the Government are very sensitive to the issues of timing and very much aware that the progress of devolution in Northern Ireland is not always as trouble-free and speedy as we would wish to see.

In recognition of the concerns expressed about that issue, the Government intend to put forward an amendment at Third Reading which makes clear that the future independence of the commission is something that needs to be guaranteed at the point of eventual devolution. Accordingly, the amendment will propose a requirement on the Secretary of State to lay a report in both Houses prior to bringing forward a devolution order. The Secretary of State would be required to set out in her report the effect of that devolution order on the commission’s independence.

We will of course return to this at Third Reading, but I hope that my noble friend is reassured that the Government take the matter seriously, and that he will be willing, as he has indicated, to withdraw his amendment.

Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill

Debate between Baroness Randerson and Lord McAvoy

Monday 3rd February 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord McAvoy]

My Lords, I apologise for interrupting. This is an important point. Will the Minister bear in mind the wise and experienced opinion of the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, that opinions that can be seen as instructions from outside are often counterproductive?

[Baroness Randerson]

The noble Lord is absolutely correct. He is emphasising the point that I made that the Government are well aware that there should be no direction from outside. It is absolutely fundamental that the Assembly itself reaches this agreement. The Government see their role as that of facilitating the operation of the opposition parties within the Assembly when the Assembly reaches that decision for itself.

There will clearly be views on this from well beyond this Chamber today, including from Members of the Northern Ireland Assembly, and I emphasise that the Government are interested in hearing those views. I hope that, in view of the indications that I have given, the noble Lord will agree at this point to withdraw his amendment.

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[Lord McAvoy]

My Lords, the amendment allows us the opportunity to reflect on the continued importance of Westminster and the Northern Ireland Office in Northern Ireland. There is a vital role for Governments and the Secretary of State in bringing peace, progress and prosperity to Northern Ireland. These are areas where, at times, it is appropriate for the Government to lead and others to support, at all times working in partnership with the Assembly, the Executive and the Government of the Republic of Ireland. Much progress has been made since the Good Friday agreement, but there remains a need for a comprehensive and inclusive process to deal with the past—the name Haass comes to mind—a process that has the victims and survivors of violence at the centre. As yet, there is no consensus within Northern Ireland as to the structures which would enable this. Nevertheless, it should be a priority of the Northern Ireland Office to facilitate and advance dialogue in this area. Dealing with the legacy of what has become known as the Troubles is expressly a responsibility of the Northern Ireland Office. The publication of the Executive’s cohesion, sharing and integration strategy is good news, and the Secretary of State should co-operate with the Executive and provide support for initiatives designed to build, and to continue to build, a shared future in Northern Ireland.

Northern Ireland’s future, like that of other parts of the United Kingdom, can be built only on a strong economy and a compassionate welfare system. These are additional areas in which the Government must work with the Assembly. The Government should also acknowledge the effects that their policies on the economy and welfare are having in Northern Ireland. What could be regarded as inattentiveness has been evidenced in the Government’s inequitable welfare reforms. Thirty-two thousand households in Northern Ireland will be affected by the bedroom tax. Northern Ireland is being disproportionately affected, since almost 90% of social housing stock is family homes of three bedrooms or more—another exposure of the falsehood that people can somehow easily downsize their homes.

This amendment restates the important role that Westminster and the Government have to play within Northern Ireland. The use of these powers would help. The Northern Ireland Act established an important role for the Secretary of State; this Bill will reaffirm this. Both restate the need for active engagement by the Secretary of State with issues that affect Northern Ireland. The amendment is entirely probing to enable some discussion on the affairs of Northern Ireland.

[Baroness Randerson]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, for his amendment. It is always worth considering whether the arrangements in place for devolution are as effective as they might be and whether there is anything we can do to improve the way in which we work with devolved Administrations.

The noble Lord referred to the role of the Secretary of State and to the Haass talks. I reflect back to his speech on the previous amendment, in which he made it absolutely clear—and rightly so—that it was vital that we respect devolution and that the Government do not intervene where it is a matter for the devolved Assembly. I remind the noble Lord that the Government on occasions walk a narrow line between encouraging and leading in relation to the development and the firming-up of devolution in Northern Ireland. They walk a narrow line between that and interfering.

As noble Lords have already pointed out, interfering is a major mistake. The Secretary of State is very aware of this, in relation to the Haass talks in particular, because those talks were convened by the leaders of the political parties in Northern Ireland. It is a sign of the development and firming-up of politics and political institutions in Northern Ireland that these leaders felt confident enough to put hugely complex and difficult issues—the most difficult ones they face—into the discussions led by Dr Richard Haass. I am delighted to see that those discussions are still going on, with two meetings of the leaders of the political parties scheduled for this week. It is therefore absolutely essential, at this moment, that we trust them to take those issues forward and avoid the temptation to interfere. That does not mean that the Secretary of State is not watching this moment by moment and day by day or that she is not anxious for the Haass talks to succeed and for there to be progress on those difficult issues.

The noble Lord made it clear that this was a probing amendment, but it is essential that I address the details of it. Amendment 2 relates to ministerial functions. It is already the case that, if the Assembly wants to legislate to alter the functions of a UK Minister, or confer functions on a UK Minister, all it needs to do is ask for the Secretary of State’s consent. The formal consent process takes about 10 days. The amendment would, therefore, have a very limited impact because it would only remove that consent process in a small number of cases specified by the Secretary of State in advance.

The current process is not onerous and there have been no complaints from the Northern Ireland parties about the way that procedures have operated in this area to date. It is also notable that the consent process is very rarely used. Only one Assembly Bill—the marine Bill—has so far required the Secretary of State’s consent since the current Assembly was elected in 2011. Consent in relation to that Bill did not relate to ministerial functions, so it would not have been affected by the proposed amendment. Although I am grateful for the opportunity for debate that this amendment has brought, I do not believe that we should legislate for a problem that does not exist. I hope that the noble Lord will withdraw his amendment.

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[Lord McAvoy]

My Lords, Clause 12, with Clauses 10 and 11, will have the effect of converting some of the functions relating to certain arm’s-length bodies from excepted to reserved matters. This is a small change but it is right that we support it. It grants more power to the Assembly, allowing it to legislate on these matters, but only with the consent of the Secretary of State. The noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, is absolutely correct to refer to past difficulties. I would not accuse him of being pessimistic about the progress made over the past 16 years. However, there is a failsafe with the involvement of the Secretary of State.

The district electoral areas for council elections in Northern Ireland are in need of reform and rationalisation. It is only right that the Assembly plays some role in such rationalisation. The changes effected by this clause are a recognition and endorsement of the growing maturity of Northern Ireland’s political structures. It reflects faith in the ability of the Stormont Assembly to scrutinise changes properly and to reach cross-community consensus. Concerns have been raised over whether it is possible for the Assembly to oversee such important and sensitive changes. Again, this clause reflects the proper functioning of devolution within the framework of Northern Ireland. The clause recognises the ability of the Assembly to make decisions in the cross-community interest and to hold the Executive to account, while clearly outlining the responsibilities of the Secretary of State and Westminster in aiding and scrutinising change in Northern Ireland.

Any legislation by the Assembly regarding these matters will require the consent of the Secretary of State. Governments in Westminster will therefore be beholden to study extensively whether such changes truly have cross-community support within Northern Ireland. That is a big responsibility. This guarantees that changes to district electoral areas in Northern Ireland cannot be designed for the benefit of two or a handful of political parties, but in full accord with the guiding principle of the 1998 agreement—that of inclusivity. This is not Westminster abdicating responsibility in this area. Instead, it imposes a major responsibility on Westminster Governments to impartially scrutinise legislation from the Assembly.

Clause 12 should stand part of the Bill as the changes it makes are part of the process of normalising politics within Northern Ireland and accord a suitable and appropriate role to Westminster in this. The clause allows the Northern Ireland Assembly to rationalise local government electoral areas, but appropriately requires the Secretary of State to give assent to any of the Assembly’s legislation. This empowers the Assembly and endorses its ability to make inclusive decisions and scrutinise them. It also retains a vital role for the Secretary of State in the scrutiny process and allows her to make decisions when the Assembly cannot reach cross-community consensus. This short clause strikes an important balance between Westminster and Stormont in this sensitive area of boundaries and should stand part of the Bill. It is another step in a long journey.

[Baroness Randerson]

I thank noble Lords for their contributions to this debate. I welcome the support of the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy. I must address the concerns of the noble Lord, Lord Empey, and my noble friend Lord Alderdice, who have both expressed doubts about this proposal.

Clause 12 moves matters relating to district electoral areas to the reserved category. Noble Lords will be aware that in Northern Ireland local government boundaries are determined by the Northern Ireland Assembly following a report by the Local Government Boundaries Commissioner for Northern Ireland. Local government electoral areas are then determined by Westminster following a report by the District Electoral Areas Commissioner. The noble Lord, Lord Empey, clearly explained that the responsibilities are split at the current time.

It has been the clearly expressed view of successive District Electoral Areas Commissioners that this method of establishing district electoral areas could be improved. Separating out the two processes as I have described leads to increased costs, extends the timetable for boundaries processes by about a year, creates barriers to public understanding and participation, and reduces accountability in the process.

In concluding his December 2013 report, the most recent District Electoral Areas Commissioner, Mr Richard Mackenzie, noted that he had received a number of representations which were outside his remit. This indicated a lack of understanding about the difference between the local government boundaries and district electoral areas processes. He recommended that the processes of setting ward boundaries and electoral areas should be carried out simultaneously and under one authority. This proposal is for a process of potential rationalisation of a cumbersome system. The previous commissioner, Dr Maurice Hayes, also recommended that the reviews be combined. He believed this would lead to higher public participation and a reduced timetable for boundaries decisions.

Moving these matters to the devolved category would allow the Northern Ireland Assembly to rationalise the way in which local government electoral areas are set, subject to the consent of the Secretary of State. For example, the Northern Ireland Executive might create a single local government boundaries commission responsible for both local government and electoral area boundaries, such as exists in Scotland, Wales and England. However, electoral areas would continue to be set via legislation at Westminster in the event that the Assembly did not reach agreement on a suitable alternative model.

I am grateful to noble Lords for expressing their concerns about this. If the Government decide that it would not appropriate to devolve these matters, it may yet be appropriate for the Assembly to legislate on this issue with consent. I therefore resist the proposal by the noble Lord, Lord Empey, that Clause 12 should not stand part of the Bill.

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[Lord McAvoy]

My Lords, once again the Labour Front Bench will come to the rescue of a Minister who is under siege from her own side of the House. I do not usually see myself as a knight in shining armour coming to the rescue of a Conservative Government, but there is always hope for sinners repenting.

I will be repeating a familiar refrain. The Civic Forum is a matter for the Northern Ireland Assembly and does not require legislation in this House. The 1990 Act gave responsibility for the creation of the forum to the Office of the First Minister and Deputy First Minister, and gave them the responsibility for scrutinising the body as well. Provisional arrangements for the Civic Forum were created and approved in this manner. These arrangements also established that there would be a review of the forum after one year of its operation. This was deferred until 2002, but unfortunately the suspension meant that that was not completed.

Since 2007 the Civic Forum has once again been under review, and surely a six-year to seven-year review tells a story of its own. The review was initiated by the Office of the First Minister and Deputy First Minister. This decision and the review have rightly been approved, scrutinised and debated by the Assembly. The transitional Assembly’s Committee on the Preparation for Government concluded that a review of the mechanism for civic society to promote its views was necessary. Here, sad to say, the opinions expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Empey, about the role in society of quite a large Assembly raise necessary doubts. It serves some nebulous cause to have a good thing in operation, but on the other hand we have to be professional and sharp about things and not just have bodies just for the sake of them. Anyway, as I said before, this comes under the aegis of the Assembly.

The best way in which to engage with the community in the political process is surely a matter for the Assembly and Northern Ireland politicians to decide upon. There are indications that there is a nationalist/unionist split—I use the terms roughly—about the worth of the forum and whether it should be reinstituted. As the noble Lord, Lord Empey, said, in this era of austerity the costs of an extra, subsidiary body have resulted in some doubts about it as well. Once again, though, I say that the initiative must come from the Assembly. This is devolution in practice.

I regret that I have not been able to support the noble Lord, Lord Shutt, because he has a respectable record on Northern Ireland issues. No one doubts his concern about the Northern Ireland situation or his anxiety to contribute to that process. I respect his record on Northern Ireland and genuinely regret that we have not been able to support his amendment on this occasion.

[Baroness Randerson]

I thank my noble friend Lord Shutt for his amendment and all noble Lords who have contributed to a short but interesting debate. As my noble friend highlighted, the community and voluntary sector plays a vital role in Northern Ireland society, as it does in my home country of Wales and in other parts of the United Kingdom. Alongside the important services it provides to citizens, the community and voluntary sector can be particularly influential in informing debate and helping to shape our society. I believe that is what led to the Civic Forum being established under the Belfast agreement. However, as noble Lords have already said, the Civic Forum has not always commanded the support of the parties in Northern Ireland. In its short existence between 2000 and 2002, the forum met a total of 12 times and produced a number of papers on various issues. There was a wide range of useful papers. For some in Northern Ireland that was seen as beneficial and important in delivering good government but, as the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, has just pointed out, for others it was seen as poor value for money. Others also pointed to it being ineffective.

Whatever the situation, the Civic Forum fell by default when the Assembly was suspended. I believe that the disagreements on how effective it had been are what prompted the First and Deputy First Ministers to initiate a review of the Civic Forum in 2007 which would make recommendations on the way forward. As noble Lords will be aware, that review has never been published but that has not quelled the interest of the parties at Stormont on progress around the Civic Forum and, as my noble friend Lord Shutt pointed out, it was debated last year in the Assembly. What was clear from that debate is that there is no clear consensus to this day on the merits of the Civic Forum or the manner in which it should be constituted in the future.

My noble friend Lord Shutt pointed out that political parties are not always popular these days as organisations to join and that civic involvement is often the favoured choice for members of the public. That is an important point and it points to the continued, or potential, significance of a forum if it were to be re-established. As the noble Lord has pointed out, the Civic Forum is an important component of the Belfast Agreement. His proposed amendment requires that the First and Deputy First Minister launch a formal consultation on the Civic Forum. I expect they may argue that this has already been carried out through the review which they launched in 2007, although the current status of that review is unclear. I say to my noble friend that I reread the Belfast agreement at the weekend and it is quite clear that this is an issue for the executive and the parties at Stormont to agree, as the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, said. Ultimately, the onus is on the parties at Stormont to agree a way forward on the Civic Forum.

If the Civic Forum is to reappear, it would be essential for it to have a clearly delineated role. It would be especially useful to agree that beforehand. That prospect would obviously follow only from the review undertaken by the First Minister and Deputy First Minister, which has never been published to this day. We are therefore speculating about a potential re-establishment which, although still under active consideration within the Assembly, is in my view some way off—if it is on the horizon at all. This is very much an issue for the parties at Stormont. I thank the noble Lord for raising the issue and hope that, in doing so, he has given the issue some renewed impetus. I hope that the parties in Belfast will take notice of our debate here and the comments of your Lordships this afternoon. In the mean time, I ask my noble friend to consider withdrawing his amendment.

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[Lord McAvoy]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Bew, who supported the original decision, was characteristically frank and honest in indicating that there was heavy opposition to what is being proposed here. When you get that sort of difficult situation, you must resort—maybe that is the wrong word, but you must go back—to basic principles. The basic principle is that there is devolution in Northern Ireland. It is a difficult subject, but the Assembly and the Executive will need to take full, political responsibility for it. I have heard powerful pleas, but I am taken with the honest assessment of the noble Lord, Lord Bew, that there are serious differences and points of view on this. In that event, the Assembly must make its own mistake—if, indeed, this is a mistake. We have devolution, and devolution is the principle that we have to go by.

[Baroness Randerson]

I thank all noble Lords for their contributions and I thank my noble friend and the noble Lord, Lord Bew, for the amendment. This is a very important matter. When we previously debated it, I was struck by the very high level of expertise, and by the very real concern felt by many noble Lords about the fact that the law on defamation in Northern Ireland has not been reformed. My noble friend Lord Lexden outlined the legal and economic impact of the failure to extend the defamation law to Northern Ireland. He also emphasised legal uncertainty.

Several noble Lords referred to the fact that there are also differences in defamation law in Scotland. As the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, has pointed out, this is the result of devolution. As a Minister, I can sympathise with the frustrations of noble Lords about devolution. It may be that the slowness of response in Northern Ireland is particularly frustrating on occasions. However, it is essential that we respect the devolution process, and part of that process is that you have different laws in different parts of the country. I am not suggesting that I regard it as a good thing that Northern Ireland has not updated its defamation law. I do not regard it as a good thing at all that Northern Ireland is in this position. However, it is important that we respect devolution and, under the Sewel convention, decisions on whether legislation in transferred areas should apply to Northern Ireland would normally fall to the devolved Administration. This repeats the arguments we had in our previous debate.

That does not mean we do not have a view on the matter. The Government have been active in encouraging the Executive to consider the need for change. As I indicated when we last debated this issue, there was contact at official level prior to the introduction of the then Defamation Bill to establish whether the Northern Ireland Executive wished to seek the approval of the Assembly to a legislative consent Motion. Following completion of the Bill’s passage, my noble friend Lord McNally wrote to the Minister of Finance and Personnel to commend the Act to him and to set out its benefits.

Noble Lords and many other organisations and individuals have highlighted concerns about the possible effects of there being differences in the law between Northern Ireland and England and Wales. My noble friend Lord Black pointed out that this is an area where it is particularly difficult to have different laws in different parts of the country. It is important that the Northern Ireland Executive assess the impact on their economy, and on academia in Northern Ireland, as the noble Lord, Lord Bew, said. It is also important that they take into account those key issues when deciding whether they wish to extend the legislation to Northern Ireland.

Several noble Lords have referred to Mike Nesbitt’s consultation in terms of its size and the quality of the responses. It is important to remember that 90% of those who responded to the consultation wanted the extension of the law to Northern Ireland. It is therefore important that Mike Nesbitt should be able to develop his legislation and take it forward.

Reference was made to the fact that Simon Hamilton, the Northern Ireland Finance Minister, has asked the Northern Ireland Law Commission to examine the matter and concerns were expressed about the timescale for this. It is something which of course the Government cannot influence, but it is important that we should encourage all those with an interest in this issue in Northern Ireland to pursue it as quickly as possible in order to provide certainty for academia, for the press—as my noble friend Lord Black mentioned—and for all those who are affected by the lack of an update to this legislation. It is clear that active consideration is now being given to it and, in view of the action being taken at Stormont and the devolved status of the issue, the Government cannot support the amendment. I am pleased that we have been able to debate the matter, and I commend the noble Lords, Lord Bew and Lord Lexden, for their continued efforts, but I respectfully ask that the amendment be withdrawn.

European Parliamentary Elections (Northern Ireland) (Amendment) Regulations 2013

Debate between Baroness Randerson and Lord McAvoy

Tuesday 29th October 2013 Grand Committee

[Baroness Randerson]

Changes are also made to the requirements in relation to attestation of applications for an absent vote on the grounds of blindness or other disability.

The regulations make two further necessary amendments relating to the conduct of European parliamentary elections. Polling districts and places designated for European parliamentary elections in Northern Ireland were previously the same as those used for parliamentary elections and, in turn, polling places for parliamentary elections were based on those for local elections. As a result of local government reform in Northern Ireland, the local government boundaries will no longer be the same as the parliamentary boundaries and so the polling station schemes for local and parliamentary elections will need to be different.

These regulations provide that polling places for European parliamentary elections will now be the same as those for local elections. However, they also give the chief electoral officer the flexibility to use some different polling districts and places if special circumstances make it desirable to do so. For example, if a parliamentary or Northern Ireland Assembly election poll were combined with a European parliamentary election poll, it might be more appropriate to use the parliamentary polling districts.

The final amendment being made by these regulations is to make it an offence in Northern Ireland for a person to stand as a candidate in a European parliamentary election in more than one electoral region in the United Kingdom. This is already an offence in Great Britain.

I hope that you will agree that this is a sensible set of regulations necessary to facilitate the European parliamentary election in Northern Ireland next year. I commend them to the Committee.

[Lord McAvoy (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for her clear exposition of the regulations. Most, if not all, of it has been the subject of a considerable amount of scrutiny in various bodies. They obviously have our full support.

I have a couple of questions and comments, in case any explanations are available. Paragraph 7.3 of the Explanatory Memorandum states that the deadline for a candidate to submit nomination papers remains the 19th day before the poll. It goes on to say that:

“any ‘EU candidate’ wishing to stand will need to submit a declaration that they are not disqualified to the returning officer at the electoral office headquarters … by 4 pm on the 24th day before the polling day (i.e. 5 working days before the close of nominations)”.

It goes on to say that returning officers send a copy of the declaration to the Secretary of State who then contacts the candidate’s home member state to ask for information about the EU candidate’s eligibility to stand for election. The Secretary of State will then send any response back to the returning officer.

Can the Minister give us any indication if there was any background discussion about the tightness of that timetable, because it seems a possible hiccup? The Explanatory Memorandum continues:

“EU candidates who miss the 24th day deadline may themselves obtain confirmation of their eligibility to stand from their home member state. If such information confirms that the candidate is not disqualified, it can be submitted by the candidate together with the specific declaration on another nomination paper by the 19th day before the poll”.

However, what follows is causing me a bit of anxiety:

“In most cases, the information will have been received in relation to an EU candidate’s eligibility by the close of nominations on the 19th day before the poll. If it is not received by then, the EU candidate will nonetheless remain on the ballot paper. In the unlikely event that information is received after the close of nominations from the EU candidate’s home member State indicating that the EU candidate is disqualified, the EU candidate will be excluded from the election at the first stage of the count and his or her votes will be transferred to the next available preference indicated on the ballot paper”.

Were there any discussions about this and was any consideration given to coming up with a better solution that this? When someone casts their vote, for that vote then to be excluded—disqualified—risks calling into question the democratic credentials of the election itself. The Minister might now have an account of the conversations that took place on these two situations and I would be grateful if she could repeat them.

[Baroness Randerson]

I thank the noble Lord for his comments and for indicating his support in general terms. I also thank him for his questions. I shall address first the issue of the five-day timetable and how tight it is. The timetable is the same as that used in Great Britain and the system will be familiar to other member states. That is because the obligation is on every member state of the EU to behave in a similar manner. All member states will be alert to the need for swift action on this. It is also worth pointing out that in these days of electronic communications, referring back to the previous debate in this Committee, the timetables can be very much tighter than in the past.

I turn to the issue of a disqualified candidate appearing on the ballot paper and the possibility of finding a different way of dealing with it than simply reallocating the votes. Of course, in Great Britain the system of elections is different in that it consists of party lists, so the vote would simply pass on to the next candidate on that list, but with STV in Northern Ireland, obviously that is not possible. However, it is also possible for the chief electoral officer to take any measures he sees fit in order to alert voters to the situation. For example, it would be perfectly reasonable, in those circumstances, to expect the chief electoral officer to put up posters at polling stations to inform voters that one of the candidates appearing on the ballot paper had been disqualified. In terms of the tightness of the timetable all round in these issues, it is worth pointing out that the whole process cannot be put into place until the nomination forms have been received. There is a set of rules to determine how many days are available from nomination to the election. The period cannot be made too long for obvious reasons, and all these procedures have to be fitted in. I hope that the noble Lord will agree that the suggested solutions are a practical way forward.

[Lord McAvoy]

Before the Minister sits down, has any discussion taken place about the possibility of the system being manipulated? For example, if a candidate with a similar name to someone else on the ballot paper, or a similar party, failed to meet the system but remained on the ballot paper, where would the votes go? Perhaps it is a bit far-fetched but, as an experienced election agent, I can think of ways of confusing the public by the manipulation of names of candidates on the ballot paper, but maybe I am being too paranoid.

[Baroness Randerson]

I can tell the noble Lord that there have been some very thorough discussions and consultations on this set of regulations. As I indicated in my speech, the Electoral Commission, the chief electoral officer, the chief returning officer and so on have been fully consulted on this. Of course, all these proposals are made against the background of more stringent checks which have taken place over many years in Northern Ireland in order to deal with electoral fraud. These are businesslike and reasonable regulations that will address all foreseeable issues of this nature.

Justice and Security (Northern Ireland) Act 2007 (Code of Practice) Order 2013

Debate between Baroness Randerson and Lord McAvoy

Thursday 20th June 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord McAvoy]

My Lords, I, too, thank the Minister for the clear exposition of the powers outlined in the code of practice. There is a very wide range of powers affecting the Police Service of Northern Ireland and the Armed Forces and it is right and proper that there should be a well thought out code of practice governing the exercise and use of those powers. We all know the situation in Northern Ireland, where the authorities, the police and the Armed Forces have to be seen to be absolutely foursquare in their application of those powers. This code of practice builds in safeguards for the use of the powers for all in the community.

Security in Northern Ireland is of the utmost importance to all noble Lords in this House and we are united in our commitment to ensuring that people in Northern Ireland are safe and secure. The men and women officers of the Police Service of Northern Ireland do their jobs with bravery and dedication. The measures in the Act play a hugely important role in combating terrorism and protecting communities in Northern Ireland and it is very important that they are overseen by rigorous, independent scrutiny. That is encompassed in the code of practice, which is vital to maintaining public confidence in Northern Ireland in the exercise of these powers. We on this side of the House are happy to lend our support, in the best traditions of bipartisanship, and understand the reasons for the urgent nature of the measure. I would like to place on record that Her Majesty’s Loyal Opposition give their full support to this order.

[Baroness Randerson]

I thank both noble Lords who have participated in this brief debate for their support and I will do my best to respond to the points raised. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Bew, for his broad support. He referred to paragraph 8.4 of the code and read an extract from it. I hope noble Lords will bear with me if I read some further extracts in response to illustrate my point.

The noble Lord referred to the balancing of the two rights. If you read the code as a whole you will see that it acknowledges the supreme importance of the right for one’s life to be protected and the obligation to protect life. There was a long consultation on this code and changes were made to it as a result, so it has been fairly thoroughly looked at. If you look further in the code, paragraph 8.6 says:

“Officers should exercise consideration when entering and searching premises. If entry is forced, officers should endeavour to cause as little damage as possible … officers must ensure the building is left secure”.

Paragraph 8.8 makes the point that:

“Where practicable, officers should seek the co-operation of any person in the dwelling”.

Paragraph 8.9 says:

“Officers should exercise their powers courteously and with respect for persons and property”.

So it goes on.

When the code deals with the need to enter premises—which may be a building but could be a field or vehicle—it acknowledges that you have to recognise that people, as well as having the right to have their life protected, also have a right to a private life. It goes on to explain that one right has to be exercised with a view to the other. I believe the code of practice enshrines the right balance.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, for his support. He referred to the importance of the code building on safeguards. He paid a very important tribute to the PSNI. The police service in Northern Ireland is a devolved issue, but the code was developed in very close collaboration with it, and my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland keeps very close links with the PSNI. Its involvement in the drafting of this code is essential to its smooth operation in the months and years to come. Finally, the noble Lord referred to the importance of rigorous scrutiny and put his finger on the key point. A process of rigorous scrutiny provides the transparency that ensures the integrity of the process. I hope the noble Lords will feel able to support the order.

Representation of the People (Northern Ireland) (Amendment) Regulations 2013

Debate between Baroness Randerson and Lord McAvoy

Tuesday 4th June 2013 Grand Committee

[Lord Empey]

My Lords, I have a number of issues that I would like to raise with the Minister. She refers to the high number of inaccurate entries on the current register. In her wind up can she give the Committee some up-to-date figures as to what in her opinion the accuracy level of the register is at present? It is a continuous process but people perhaps become less exercised by it and do not follow through; if they move house and move around and so on, it is definitely an issue.

With regards to the reference that you are going to support research by NISRA into alternatives to the 2021 census, I think many people felt that the census was an extremely costly process. The information also decays very rapidly with time. Ten years is a long time in public policy and needs change. If it is possible to have a more accurate and running figure when one is making public policy and spending decisions, there is merit in that. Quite frequently we had to make decisions on the basis of previous censuses which obviously were very inaccurate by the time we got to them.

The Northern Ireland Electoral Commission also recommended changes to the way the canvass form is set, which would require primary legislation. The Government are considering this recommendation. Can the noble Baroness tell us where that thought process is at and whether the Government have decided to accept this recommendation? Will a law come forward?

The one issue to which I want to draw the Committee’s attention is that of confidentiality. We all know about the Census (Confidentiality)(Northern Ireland) Order 1991 but I have to tell noble Lords that there is considerable anxiety among many people that the spread of information—the number of agencies from which the information is both drawn from and goes to—means that a very large number of people have access to it. No matter what is said, given that lip service is always paid to confidentiality, I am not clear about what is actually being done about this, so I would be grateful for an indication of what processes and decisions to implement it are in place. The fact is that people are still being targeted and, sadly, we have seen evidence of that over the past six months. A number of people are nervous about having their names appear on the electoral register, and yet they are under a legal obligation to provide information for electoral purposes. That information will be spread around a large number of public bodies whether they want it or not. In the past, I have listened to Ministers say that it is an issue and they are looking at it but I am unclear as what has ever been done about it. It is an extremely difficult problem to solve. Once information is passed to public bodies, it is in the system where loads of people have access to it, and it is not clear to me how that information is controlled.

I would be grateful if the noble Baroness could address these issues in her response to the Committee.

[Lord McAvoy]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for her clear outline of the regulations. It is extremely important, particularly in Northern Ireland, that there is a continual process of encouraging people to register, despite the obvious difficulties quite rightly mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Empey. The issue of confidentiality is the only point I wish to raise.

Paragraph 8.4 of the Explanatory Memorandum explains that the Information Commissioner’s office made,

“recommendations in relation to the contents of the data arrangements between”,

various organisations and bodies in Northern Ireland. Is the noble Baroness able to share with us what those recommendations were, or at the very least at this stage say what the issues were that led the Government to further consider these recommendations? If she cannot do so today, perhaps she will write to me and the noble Lord, Lord Empey.

The Opposition Front Bench supports what the Government are doing here and would encourage them to make sure as best they can that people register and take part in the democratic process in Northern Ireland. I know that I have sprung a question on her, but if the information regarding the Information Commissioner’s Office is available and it is possible share it, I would be grateful.

[Baroness Randerson]

I thank both noble Lords who have spoken for their contributions and those noble Lords who have attended and shown interest in this debate. I will do my best to answer the questions posed and, as ever, I will review the record afterwards and write to noble Lords who are here if I have any further information to add.

The noble Lord, Lord Empey, asked about the completeness of the register and its accuracy. The parliamentary register is considered to be 73% complete and the local government register is considered to be 71% complete. The accuracy for both registers is considered to be 78%. That gives us 22% inaccuracy. It is in the interests of democracy that we make the register as accurate as possible because inaccurate names will not increase the turnout; in fact, they would probably do the reverse. Therefore, it is important that we have a very accurate register in Northern Ireland.

I am pleased that the noble Lord welcomed using NISRA for the census and approaching the census information in a different way. The recommended changes to the canvass form that he referred to are in the primary legislation currently before the other place: the Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill. They will allow very broad parameters to be set by government. The form will be designed by the Electoral Commission. In my view and that of the Government, that is very much more satisfactory because, after all, the Electoral Commission has a wealth of experience and its approach has been honed in other parts of Britain.

I shall go back to the census and the issue about confidentiality raised by both noble Lords. Part of the benefit of information sharing with NISRA is improving its ability to obtain information relevant to the census. Confidentiality is a difficult issue, as the Northern Ireland Office is very aware. There was a public consultation on anonymous registration, and provisions on it are currently being considered. It is important to bear in mind that people do not have to have their address advertised on the register in order to have the right to vote. They have a legal obligation to register to vote but do not have to have their address advertised. I emphasise that NISRA deals with census material under conditions of secrecy and confidentiality. Its staff are trained to a very high standard in this and are under considerable regulation in the way in which they handle that data, for the reasons that noble Lords outlined in their concern about confidentiality. The concern about sharing data is not new. It has existed for some time and therefore is not associated with these regulations.

Finally, I shall correct a slip that I made when talking about the Electoral Commission designing the form. It may design the form but will not necessarily do so. The legislation before the other place would permit it to do so.

I commend the regulations to the Committee.

Justice and Security (Northern Ireland) Act 2007 (Extension of duration of non-jury trial provisions) Order 2013

Debate between Baroness Randerson and Lord McAvoy

Tuesday 4th June 2013 Grand Committee

[Lord McAvoy]

My Lords, again I thank the Minister for her clear outline of the order. For the purpose of this discussion, I thank my two friends, the noble Lords, Lord Bew and Lord Empey, for bringing as usual to these discussions weight, knowledge and a firm understanding of what is at stake in Northern Ireland. They have long experience there, which we are lucky to have brought to this Room. I share with all noble Lords and noble Baronesses the reluctance, but nevertheless acceptance of the need, to proceed with the renewal of the order. It is entirely necessary but none of us likes it. There is merit in what the noble Lord, Lord Empey, said about a review at some point and we would all be delighted to have that review and for it to recommend the discontinuation of the legislation. However, we are not there yet.

In the interests of information and getting a clear picture of what is happening on the ground regarding these issues, the Minister outlined the number of cases. She mentioned only one terrorist-based organisation, which was republican. Does that mean that there were no instances of charges involving, for want of a better description, the loyalist/militant unionist community? Perhaps that is a bit of a misnomer. That is not to say that we are in some sort of competition to see who is causing more trouble than anyone else; it is for the sake of giving noble Lords here a grasp of the situation. That would inform us and enable us to get a better picture.

However, it is quite clear that we are all in agreement and the Labour Front Bench strongly supports this move and joins everyone in this Room in hoping that this is near enough the last continuation of these provisions.

[Baroness Randerson]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords for their contributions. I agree wholeheartedly with the last sentiment expressed by the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy. We would all agree that we very much hope that this will be the last time that this order has to be renewed.

I shall start with the contribution of the noble Lord, Lord Bew. I was perhaps not clear in what I said. There was a two-stage process in the consultation. The Secretary of State canvassed opinion among stakeholders and, having taken those initial soundings, she decided to hold a formal consultation. It was formal but limited in the number of organisations that were consulted and the response rate did not indicate that there was any burning concern in a number of organisations. Three of the responses from the organisations did not agree with the renewal, although one of them was a group of academics in Australia which was not a formal part of the consultation. The reasons given by the people who live in the community directly affected by this were largely to do with there being a lack of evidence of intimidation. Of course, one is struck by the fact that if this system is working well, it prevents intimidation, and therefore, it if has worked successfully, there will be little evidence of intimidation. For example, the director of the Committee on the Administration of Justice expressed frustration at the lack of available evidence of juror intimidation and questioned the degree of discretion afforded to the Director of Public Prosecutions in issuing the certificate. The tenor of the reply was concern that there was no evidence.

I share the concern expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Empey, about the current violence. It is worth pointing out that there is a large number of unsuccessful attempts at violence and terrorism. I shall give some examples. So far this year, in relation to national security attacks, there have been 68 arrests, 32 charges and 19 seizures. That is a sign of the success of the PSNI operation. The noble Lord raised the possibility of judicial review. It is always a possibility, and the Northern Ireland Office is aware of it. I will ensure that the point is made to the Secretary of State and that she is aware of the noble Lord’s comments.

The noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, asked about loyalist attacks. The concern about terrorism is primarily about dissident republicans but, of course, there is another issue about loyalist unrest, the nature of which we saw during the flag protests, which became violent on a number of occasions. There were death threats and violence against the police, and a considerable number of police were injured in the early days of those protests. We need to be aware of the issue, in that there is a different face to concern in both those communities.

Finally, we have to bear in mind that in Northern Ireland people are particularly vulnerable to paramilitary intimidation. It is greater than it is in the rest of the UK because, as noble Lords know very well from their own experience, people live in small, close-knit communities. It is particularly easy to identify those called for jury service, which is at the heart of the problem. We have to be concerned about the intimidation or potential intimidation of jurors by people representing both sides of the community. I commend the order to the Committee.

Control of Donations and Regulation of Loans etc. (Extension of the Prescribed Period) (Northern Ireland) Order 2013

Debate between Baroness Randerson and Lord McAvoy

Tuesday 29th January 2013 Grand Committee

[Lord McAvoy]

My Lords, I, too, thank the Minister for her clear and full explanation of the order. I think that it was appreciated by everyone. The forthright contribution made by the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, and the fascinating speech made by the noble Lord, Lord Lyell, which took us down memory lane, did no harm to our discussions. I think that everyone in this Room understands why the legislation was passed in the first place, and while there is a desire for uniformity throughout the United Kingdom, the kingdom is also flexible and realistic enough to know when it has to bend, when it has to manoeuvre, and when it has to bring forward different legislation for different parts of the country. Unfortunately and tragically, this legislation was necessary, and indeed most folk would deem that it is still necessary. The Minister has mentioned the recent events which serve to underline the fact that when it comes to measures like these in Northern Ireland, the word to use must be “caution”. We have to be very careful that we do not introduce any unintended consequences.

Let me state right away that the Official Opposition support the Government in their position on this order. We hope, of course, that we can move as quickly as possible to a situation of full transparency regarding these donations, but nevertheless it is clear that that will have to be a gradual process. As has been mentioned, the Electoral Commission is much respected and the Opposition is practically foursquare with its views on the order. We want to see it amended as soon as possible so that voters can see how parties are funded, but as I mentioned earlier, caution must come first. I also welcome the announcement about the timing of the draft Bill to see how quickly it is envisaged that we can move forward.

When it comes to the draft Bill, I want to put one inquiry to the Minister today. Will that Bill raise the issue of double-jobbing? I am not quite sure about all the intricacies, but I have been told to put the question and to get a response. As I say, we support the order and the retrospective principle contained in it. It is only right that there should be retrospection, apart from any information that would enable donors and lenders to be identified. It has to be a mixture of innovation and caution. In Northern Ireland matters, that is always the right thing to do.

Public opinion research shows consistent support for the introduction of transparency into the funding of political parties in Northern Ireland. The Electoral Commission has informed me that the most recent survey, carried out in December 2012, found that 62% of the respondents felt that information about who donates to political parties should be made available to the public. Some 7% said that it should remain confidential while 31% did not mind either way. That sounds like a familiar figure. We need to deal with this situation so that the Electoral Commission is not legally bound to publish something. We would like to see a fully transparent scheme, but surely we all understand why we are moving slowly on it.

In conclusion, as I have said, the Official Opposition support what the Government are doing here. Our Front Bench Members have discussed these matters with the Government and we are prepared to support an extension of the prescribed period, it is hoped for a final time, having received the assurances announced by the Minister that very soon there will be moves to bring Northern Ireland into line with the rest of the UK in terms of transparency around political donations. There needs to be a change, but we acknowledge that there is no agreement between the political parties in Northern Ireland about thresholds and the amount of information to be made available on individuals, security matters and other issues. However, they are not drawbacks or obstacles but opportunities to further advance the situation in Northern Ireland so that it comes more into line with the rest of the United Kingdom. We support the order.

[Baroness Randerson]

I thank all noble Lords who have contributed to this debate and welcome the fact that the order has received so much support. I shall endeavour to answer as many points as I can.

The noble Lord, Lord Lexden, accepted that there should be a move to full transparency in time, and I believe that that feeling is shared around this Room. Both the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, and the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, pointed to the 2010 consultation, in which two-thirds of respondents supported disclosure and transparency. I liked the comment that we should proceed with patience and understanding.

I believe that it was the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, who made the important point that political parties can publish, if they wish, these details. It is my understanding that the Alliance Party has commenced that process. Once some political parties start to publish, I believe that others will follow—the Alliance has started; others will follow—and I hope that that will hasten the eventual move to full transparency.

Several noble Lords referred to retrospective disclosure. To avoid confusion in relation to whether disclosure will apply to past donations or future donations made during the extended prescribed period—that is, until September 2014—we intend to provide that the identities of those who have made donations or loans in the past without knowing that their details might be released are not published when the prescribed period ends. People donating now, during the current prescribed period, will not find their names and details published. Retrospective disclosure is therefore addressed and dealt with and will not apply.

The Government are, however, committed to the disclosure of other information which would not identify donors. That information might include whether the donation came from a corporation or an individual, the nationality of that individual and the amount of the donation, but none of those would identify the name or address of the individual.

It is important to emphasise that the Electoral Commission does very rigorous checks in Northern Ireland on donations and loans. Although the general regulations on disclosure to the Electoral Commission are the same as those in the rest of Britain—beyond the publication, of course—the checks that the Electoral Commission does in Northern Ireland are more rigorous than in the rest of Britain. In other words, it goes to greater lengths to satisfy itself on the genuineness of the information that it is given.

The noble Lord, Lord Lyell, asked about the significance of 30 September 2014. Its significance is that it is the earliest possible date. The Electoral Commission requires that the system moves to greater transparency as soon as possible. That needs primary legislation. The estimate is of how quickly primary legislation can go through this House and the other place and, following that, how quickly the regulations can be implemented. Responses to the Electoral Commission are made quarterly and that is the end of the quarter when this can reasonably be expected to happen. As I said, and as noble Lords will have noted, a draft Bill will be published next week.

The noble Lord, Lord Lyell, also asked about the definition of “regulated recipients”. It is defined in Schedule 7 to the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000. It applies throughout the country, including Northern Ireland. It covers members of political parties, members of associations and holders of elected office, so I think that it probably would apply to the noble Lord in his previous life and career.

I am pleased that the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, has pledged his support. It is important that we have the widest possible support, particularly cross-community support in Northern Ireland. I am pleased that he accepts that the process will be gradual. He asked a specific question about whether double-jobbing would be addressed in the draft Bill. The issue was covered in public consultation last year and, although I cannot at this stage reveal the contents of the draft Bill, it is clearly on the agenda of the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland.

I am pleased that the order has received such a warm welcome, which I hope will ensure its speedy acceptance in the Chamber next week.

District Electoral Areas Commissioner (Northern Ireland) Order 2012

Debate between Baroness Randerson and Lord McAvoy

Tuesday 20th November 2012 Grand Committee

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Wales Office (Baroness Randerson)]

My Lords, I beg to move that the draft District Electoral Areas Commissioner (Northern Ireland) Order 2012, which was laid before the House on 15 October 2012, be approved. This is a relatively simple but important order that makes provision for the appointment of a district electoral areas commissioner in Northern Ireland. By way of background, local government itself, including local government boundaries, is a devolved matter for the Northern Ireland Executive, but elections to local government are an excepted matter for the UK Government. In 2008 a local government boundaries commissioner was appointed by the Northern Ireland Department of the Environment to make recommendations regarding the boundaries, names and wards of the new 11 local government districts, reducing the number from the current 26. Once established, the wards in those districts need grouping into electoral areas so that elections can take place using the STV form of proportional representation. The Secretary of State appoints a district electoral areas commissioner, who is independent of government, to carry out this important task.

In 2009, the then Secretary of State appointed Dick Mackenzie as the DEAC for a period of one year. This was done in the expectation that the Northern Ireland Executive would move forward with local government reorganisation in time to hold the 2011 local elections on the new 11-council model. Mr Mackenzie did a considerable amount of work on the district electoral areas during his period of appointment but unfortunately was not able to complete his task. This was because the Executive at that time were not able to move forward with the local government reorganisation before his term of office expired. It was of course not possible to set electoral areas before ward boundaries had been agreed. Local elections in 2011 were therefore held on the basis of the 26-council model.

I am delighted that the Northern Ireland Executive and the Northern Ireland Assembly have now agreed to move forward with local government reorganisation and that an order setting out the boundaries and wards for the 11 new councils has been agreed by the Northern Ireland Assembly. The order is expected to be made by the Northern Ireland Department of the Environment before the end of November.

As for the order itself, we now need to move forward with the next part of the process. Since the district electoral areas commissioner appointment has come to an end, there is no legal basis on which to reappoint someone to the same task, so a new order is needed. The order before us, in summary, makes provision for the appointment of a district electoral areas commissioner following the 2008 local government boundary review and amends the District Electoral Areas Commissioner (Northern Ireland) Order 1984.

Article 2 provides for the appointment of a replacement commissioner when the district electoral areas commissioner’s appointment has come to an end before he has completed his task. This provision will be used for the current process. Article 2 also makes amendments to the timing of future appointments, providing greater flexibility for the Secretary of State on when to make the appointments. It allows the Secretary of State to appoint a district electoral areas commissioner at any time after a local government boundaries commissioner’s appointment. However, he or she will not be required to do so until an order has been made by the Northern Ireland Executive establishing the new local government boundaries.

Article 3 makes specific provision for the timing of the appointment following the current review. It provides that the Secretary of State must appoint a replacement district electoral areas commissioner “as soon as practicable” after this order comes into force. It also provides that the commissioner must submit his report as soon as practicable after his appointment if the local government boundaries order is made before this order comes into force, which may well be the case.

In conclusion, I hope that noble Lords will endorse this statutory instrument, which ensures that the process of local government reorganisation in Northern Ireland, as agreed by the Assembly, can continue. I commend the District Electoral Areas Commissioner (Northern Ireland) Order 2012 to the Committee.

[Lord McAvoy]

My Lords, first, I welcome the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, to the post dealing with Northern Ireland. As I am sure she will pick up very quickly, boundaries are of great interest to all political parties in Northern Ireland, perhaps even more so than in the rest of the United Kingdom. I am not quite sure whether she is a veteran of the debates on the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill but that was certainly a very interesting time and I thoroughly enjoyed my part in it.

Can the Minister tell us whether there have been any objections to the delay in making this appointment and putting this order through, and whether there were any objections to any part of the process? We take the view—and my honourable friend Vernon Coaker has always made it quite plain—that these matters that are devolved to Northern Ireland must be dealt with in Northern Ireland. Especially when it comes to boundaries, we will work closely with all the parties in Northern Ireland to make sure that they are accepted.

However, there are one or two questions. This post is likely to be controversial and I wonder what the Government’s response is to any controversy that has arisen over this post, which is quite a significant one. Perhaps the Minister can answer those questions when she responds. I reserve the right to perhaps come in again if any comments require a response from me.