Pension Schemes Bill

Debate between Baroness Sherlock and Baroness Penn

2nd reading
Thursday 18th December 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful for the incredible range of thoughtful and constructive contributions we have heard during today’s debate. I should declare that I am a member of the parliamentary pension scheme; otherwise, I have a private pension.

I am so grateful to have heard the maiden speech of the noble Baroness, Lady White. I realise we have quite a bit in common: we are children of migrants, I too have spatial dyspraxia—I have never yet found my way around here—and we both engage with a church. I am afraid that there it ends; no one will ever ask me to chair John Lewis, which may be just as well for anybody who likes shopping there. She may have had an eclectic career but, now that she has joined this House, it will get a lot more eclectic still. It is a joy to have her on board and, if there is more of that to come, I look forward to it.

The range of views around of the House reflects the significance of the Bill for savers, employers and the pensions industry. The level of interest underscores how important pensions are to savers and the UK economy, and we need to help people get the best from their savings. There were some fascinating discussions in the debate today. I could have listened to the noble Lord, Lord Willetts, and my noble friend Lord Wood for a lot longer, and I shall not be able to do justice to what they said. But I shall go back and read it very carefully and I hope that we can continue to have some really interesting conversations.

There were a lot of questions, and I will not be able to respond to all of them. I shall do my very best, but I have only 20 minutes and it may be that noble Lords have to listen back to this at half-speed, if I am not careful.

I will start with adequacy, as that is where the noble Baroness, Lady Stedman-Scott, began. I was grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Willetts, for setting out that this has been very much a cross-party journey that we have been on together, and I hope that we can keep it that way. I am sure that the noble Baroness did not mean to presume that auto-enrolment started with the last Conservative Government, when in fact it was legislated by the previous Labour Government—and there was also the Pensions Commission. I am sure that she did not mean to say that. What we have done is provide some remarkable continuity in the journey, and I hope that we can carry on doing that.

I was delighted by the work done by the last Pensions Commission, on which my noble friend Lady Drake served with such distinction—and I know that she will serve with equal distinction on the next Pensions Commission. That is the place where adequacy will be addressed fully. The Government are committed to that—it is a key priority for us—but it is also important that we get the market into the right shape so that, if savers are saving more, they will get the returns on their money.

I turn to the issue of surplus. I listened very carefully to the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, and my noble friend Lord Davies, and thought, “I can’t make them both happy on this front”. That is generally true, I think, but it is illustrated particularly on the subject of surplus. I shall say two things. First, to the noble Viscount, Lord Younger, I say that we are very careful about what surplus extraction will do. Schemes are currently enjoying high levels of funding, with three in four in surplus on a low-dependency basis. They are also more mature, with the vast majority having a hedge to minimise the risk of future volatility with investment strategies: they are protected against interest rate and inflation movements. The DB funding code and underpinning legislation introduced in 2024 require trustees to maintain a strong funding position.

The decisions to release surplus are of course subject to trustee discretion and underpinned by strict safeguards, including the requirement for a prudent funding threshold, actuarial certification and member notification. Of course, as part of any agreement to release surplus funds, trustees are in a good position to negotiate, and it will be down to trustees to negotiate with their employers about the way in which surplus is released.

My noble friend Lady Warwick rightly pressed me on the questions of scale. As outlined in the impact assessment for the Bill, there is a range of evidence showing that scale can help deliver better governance, with economies of scale, investment expertise and access to a wider range of assets all helping to improve outcomes. We may not be heading for the sunlit uplands of Aussie megafunds, described by the noble Baroness, Lady White, but we are pushing in that direction. In response to her question, we will ensure that the governance and regulatory requirements needed for these much bigger pension schemes will be robust. We will develop those with the industry going forward.

On the question of whether the scale measures are going to be tougher on smaller schemes, the problem is that our evidence shows, across a range of studies, that scale is what makes the difference. We are asked why there is a magic number of about £25 billion. The evidence from a number of studies shows that a greater number of benefits can arise from a scale of £25 billion to £50 billion of assets under management, including investment expertise and sophistication and the balance sheet to provide a more diverse portfolio to savers. We have not seen sufficient evidence that other approaches will enable the same benefits for savers and the economy, so we do believe that scale is the best way to realise benefits across the market for savers. However, there will be a transition pathway to enable those schemes that are not there now to have a route to scale where they have a credible plan to achieve it in five years, and we will consult the industry on what a credible plan may look like as part of the development of regulations.

A number of noble Lords, including the noble Baronesses, Lady Altmann and Lady Noakes, and the noble Lord, Lord Ashcombe, as well as my noble friend Lord Wood, mentioned the position of new entrants. The potential for future market innovation is really important; we are very conscious that scale requirements could, if not done correctly, prevent this future innovation. So the Government have provided for a new-entrant pathway, designed specifically to provide a route for this future innovation. We will monitor future movement in the market to ensure that the pathway is working as intended. In addition to innovation, these schemes will be required to have the strong potential to grow to scale over time.

I dive in briefly to the reserve power and asset allocation. I am clearly not going to satisfy the House today; we will have plenty of time in Committee to discuss this. But I shall make a few points now about it in general and the interaction with fiduciary duty. Questions were raised by the noble Baronesses, Lady Stedman-Scott, Lady Penn and Lady Noakes, the noble Lords, Lord Sharkey and Lord Vaux, my noble friend Lord Davies, the noble Lords, Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth and Lord Evans—and I am going to stop saying these names now.

There is widespread recognition of the benefits that a diverse investment portfolio can bring for savers. That is exactly why the signatories to the Mansion House Accord are committing to invest in private markets. This reserve power will help to ensure this change happens, but we have built in a number of safeguards. Let me just knock one thing on the head. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Ashcombe, that this asset allocation power does not apply to the LGPS. Following an amendment in the House of Commons, the Bill no longer allows a responsible authority, such as the Secretary of State, to direct asset pool companies to make specific investment decisions. I hope that reassures the noble Lord on that point.

On the wider question, the making of regulations under this power will be subject to a raft of safeguards contained in the Bill. To respond to the noble Viscount, Lord Younger, I say that the Government anticipate that we will not have to use this power if all goes well. Were the Government ever to use it, there are a series of safeguards, and we would have to consult and produce a report. We would at that point look at developing how it would be done. Let me briefly touch on the safeguards: first, the power is time limited, and I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Penn, that it will expire if it has not been used. Any percentage headline asset allocation requirements enforced beyond that date will be capped at their current levels. Secondly, and crucially, the Government are required to establish a savers’ interest test in which pension providers will be granted an exemption from the targets where they can show that meeting them would cause material financial detriment to savers. Finally, the regulations will obviously be subject to parliamentary scrutiny but, before that, the Government will need to consult and publish a report on the impact of any new requirements on savers and economic growth both before exercising any power for the first time and within five years of it being exercised.

I am going to have to rush through. I turn to the points raised by the noble Baronesses, Lady Altmann and Lady Bowles, about qualifying assets and investment trusts. I can see that the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, feels very strongly about this—I listened carefully to the points that she and the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, made. I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, in particular that the Government recognise the role that investment trusts play in the UK economy and in supporting the Government’s growth agenda, and we are committed to supporting this important sector. We put that on the record very clearly. However, when it comes to qualifying assets in a reserve power, we have aimed to stick closely to the scope of the Mansion House Accord, which itself is limited to investments made by unlisted funds. That is consistent with our general approach to this part of the Bill, where we deliberately ensure that the powers are suitably targeted and contain guardrails. In other words, they are not intended to be open-ended but should be capable of serving as a backstop to the commitments that pension providers have voluntarily made.

There were a number of points made by my noble friend Lord Davies about consumer protections. I reassure him that consumer protection is a priority for the Government, and ensuring that there are strong consumer safeguards is something we take very seriously. That is why the Bill introduces a number of robust consumer protections, including in the contractual override process, in small pots and in DB surplus. I look forward to discussing these in more detail with him and others in Committee.

My noble friend Lady Warwick raised the question of VFM. I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Coffey, for welcoming that; my noble friend Lord Davies raised it as well. The noble Viscount, Lord Younger, asked about the interaction in different parts of the scheme. The pensions road map, which I am sure he has had the opportunity to read, shows very clearly how the different measures that we are proposing connect and how they are all necessary. They are all key parts of a machine necessary to achieving the Government’s objective of moving the pensions landscape forward. I can tell him that the next step will be a joint consultation by the FCA and the Pensions Regulator, which will be published early next year. This will then inform our draft regulations on value for money, which we intend to consult on during 2026. We expect the VFM framework to be implemented in 2028, with the first set of VFM metrics published in March 2028. The first VFM assessment reports and ratings will then be published in October 2028. On that basis, we would expect to see poor performing schemes starting to exit the market from November 2028.

On the pre-1927 indexation in the Pension Protection Fund and FAS, I listened very carefully to the comments that have been made by my noble friend Lady Warwick, the noble Lord, Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth—I thank him for his thoughtful reflection—and many other colleagues. We are laying the groundwork for the first major step forward in this area, and I think that some credit should be given to the Government for doing that. However, I understand that this will not go as far as many had hoped.

We need to recognise that the PPF maintains a substantial financial reserve. It is not a surplus; it is a financial reserve to protect against future risks. The cost of retrospection and arrears is significant and would greatly reduce that reserve. Any change that reduces the PPF’s reserves will, by definition, reduce the vital security the PPF provides to its current and future members. The PPF has very successfully navigated the past 20 years. It is well regarded as a prudent fiduciary acting in the best interests of pension savers, and we need to ensure that it can continue to do so.

I am going to disappoint my noble friend Lord Davies on the matter of pre-1997 indexation in wider DB schemes. I need to tell him clearly that the Government have no plans to change the rules on pre-1997 indexation for DB schemes. These rules ensure consistency across all schemes, and changing them would increase liabilities and costs. Over three-quarters of schemes pay some pre-1997 indexation because of scheme rules or as a discretionary benefit, but reforms in the Bill, as we have mentioned, will enable more trustees of well-funded DB pension schemes to share surplus with employers and deliver better outcomes for members, which may include discretionary indexation.

I turn to the questions on fiduciary duty, raised by many noble Lords, including the noble Baronesses, Lady Hayman, Lady Bowles and Lady Penn, the noble Lords, Lord Sharkey and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth, and my noble friend Lady Warwick. It is often said that fiduciary duty is the cornerstone of trust-based pension schemes and that trustees should invest in the best interests of their members. That principle remains fundamental. The Government believe that the current legal framework gives trustees flexibility to adapt and protect savers’ interests. However, at the same time, we acknowledge the calls for more clarity on considering systemic factors, such as climate risk and members’ living standards, when making investment decisions.

My colleague the Minister for Pensions set out in the Commons that we intend to develop guidance for the trust-based private pension sector to provide this clarification. I know that he plans to come forward shortly with more details on what the guidance will look to cover. He has already confirmed how he intends to start engaging with a wide range of stakeholders in producing the guidance, starting with a series of industry round tables early in the new year.

Through guidance, the Government are trying to address a barrier that some trustees say they face when investing in savers’ best interests. Guidance has the potential to support climate and sustainability goals, and our wider goal to improve saver outcomes and unlock pension investment in UK growth. We are still in the early stages of undertaking consultation and exploring options on this, and we will provide further updates in due course.

The noble Lord, Lord Bourne, and the noble Baroness, Lady Penn, asked why we do not just change the primary legislation. It is the Government’s view that introducing statutory changes to refine investment duties could risk creating rigid and complex obligations, which would reduce the ability of trustees to respond to changing investment landscapes and circumstances. On the questions of how and when, we are exploring possible options for taking this forward if and when parliamentary time allows.

The noble Baronesses, Lady Bowles and Lady Coffey, raised the position of trustees, and others also alluded to it. Successful implementation of the Bill’s reforms will rely on highly skilled trustees operating independently, applying good governance and focusing on delivering the best outcomes for savers. That is why we launched a consultation on stronger trusteeship and governance earlier this week. It aims to bring all schemes up to the required standard and explore what changes might be needed to raise the bar for all trustees. The industry has welcomed the consultation and there seems to be a consensus that high-quality trusteeship and governance is vital to ensuring good outcomes for pension scheme members. I encourage anyone with an interest in this area to respond to the consultation.

A number of other points were raised. The noble Baroness, Lady Coffey, talked about the need for a single regulator. I say simply that the Government recognise the importance of clarity and co-ordination in the regulation of workplace pensions. The FCA and the Pensions Regulator work effectively together, including through joint working groups and consultations. They have shared strategies and guidance, and regular joint engagement with stakeholders. The Government keep the regulatory system under review.

The noble Lord, Lord Ashcombe, made some interesting points. The Government are committed to appropriate regulation, and to do that we need to engage regularly with stakeholders and industry to make sure that we get it right. There are some genuine questions, which we will go on to debate in Committee, about getting the balance right between primary legislation, secondary legislation, regulation, supervision, governance and guidance. We need space to be able to engage with industry, because any regulations we produce have to work and the details of the scheme will have to be worked through. That will inevitably mean that there will be times when the House will want more detail than we are able to give. One of the challenges is that it should not be possible both to criticise the Government while they are trying to make their mind up on everything at the same time in some areas and to criticise them for not being open to consultation. We will see how it goes and continue to consult extensively with industry and other stakeholders as we move through this.

A few more points were raised. The noble Lord, Lord Kirkhope of Harrogate, asked about the Pensions Ombudsman. It is important to clarify that the measure on the Pensions Ombudsman neither increases nor widens their powers, nor that of the TPO, beyond what was originally intended. This is reinstating the original intent of the ombudsman’s powers in pension overpayment dispute cases, which were debated in Parliament when the ombudsman was established in 1991. There was a High Court ruling; we are amending the existing legislation because that ruling stated that the TPO is not a competent court in pensions overpayment cases. The aim is to reinstate the original policy intent and reaffirm the government view and that of the pensions industry. I hope that reassures the noble Lord. It restores the original policy intent—that is all. It is not designed to try to widen it. I hope that is an encouragement to him.

On the question of small pots, the noble Lord, Lord Vaux of Harrowden, and the noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard, queried the pot limit. We had to choose somewhere. The initial pot limit of £1,000 will address 13 million stock of small pots, which we think strikes the right balance between achieving meaningful levels of pot consolidation and reducing administration costs for pension providers without distorting the market. However, the Secretary of State will keep the threshold under review to ensure that it remains appropriate as the market continues to develop following the reforms made in the Bill.

A number of noble Lords asked about the position on pensions dashboards. The Government have committed to regular updates to the House—we will be doing another one of those—but let me put some headlines on the record for now. The House will be glad to know that good progress has been made with the pensions dashboards. The first pension provider successfully completed connection to the pensions dashboards ecosystem on 17 April this year, forming a crucial step towards making dashboards a reality. More than 700 of the largest pension providers and schemes are now connected to the dashboards ecosystem; over 60 million records are now integrated into dashboards, representing around three-quarters of the records in scope.

Further, state pension data is now accessible, representing tens of millions of additional records. The pensions dashboards programme is confident that pension providers and schemes in scope will connect by the regulatory deadline of 31 October 2026. When we have assurances that the service is safe, secure and thoroughly user tested, the Secretary of State will provide the industry with six months’ notice ahead of the launch of the Money Helper pensions dashboard.

A number of noble Lords mentioned the gender pensions gap, including the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, and the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett. Auto-enrolment has delivered substantial progress in increasing pension participation among women, which has meant, as the noble Baroness said, that workplace pension participation rates between eligible men and women in the private sector have now equalised. However, it is absolutely right that gaps remain in pension participation and wealth, reflecting wider structural inequalities in the labour market. A gender pay gap leads to a gender pensions gap. Women now approaching retirement still have, on average, half the private pension wealth of men. The Pensions Commission will consider further steps to improve pension outcomes for all, especially women and groups identified as being at greater risk of undersaving for retirement.

That is probably about as far as I can go. I am really grateful to be part of a House with so much interest and knowledge in a subject that not everybody—noble Lords will be shocked to hear—finds as interesting as those of us here today do. However, we do, and I look forward to lots of really interesting discussions in Committee. This Bill marks a decisive step in modernising the pensions system, strengthening security for members, driving better value and enabling innovation across the sector. It combines ambition with safeguards, ensuring schemes can deliver improved outcomes while maintaining confidence and trust. I look forward to working with noble Lords—after they have had a very happy Christmas—and to continuing constructive engagement. I commend the Bill to the House.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

The Minister has made a valiant attempt to answer all questions. Can she commit to writing to the noble Lords in this debate on the questions she did not reach, and to that letter reaching us before we start Committee?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

This is the last sitting day before we finish. I will look at what I can put in writing before we get to Committee. I have never been asked so many questions in such a short period—and I have talked to church youth groups. I will see what we can do on that front.