Human Trafficking

Baroness Stowell of Beeston Excerpts

Thursday 21st March 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Doocey]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many children have been referred to the National Referral Mechanism for victims of trafficking since it was launched in 2009.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, the national referral mechanism is a multi-agency framework designed to make it easier for organisations involved in a human trafficking case to co-operate, share information about potential victims and facilitate their access to tailored support. Between 1 April 2009 and 31 December 2012, 939 children were referred to this system by a range of front-line agencies.

[Baroness Doocey]

I thank the Minister for that response. Will she join me in welcoming the steps that Eurostar is taking to improve measures to prevent child trafficking at St Pancras International station? Will she ensure that the UK Border Agency co-operates more fully with both Eurostar and the British Transport Police and does nothing to hinder any of these initiatives?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, human trafficking of adults and, especially, children is one of the vilest crimes. I congratulate my noble friend on her tireless efforts in this area. I most definitely welcome the steps being taken by Eurostar to improve prevention via St Pancras and will of course ensure that the UK Border Agency and the UK Border Force continue to work closely with all parties trying to prevent this crime. Indeed, UKBA is committed to developing its practices in support of victims. I can announce to the House today that from 1 April the UKBA team that handles trafficking decisions will be exclusively dedicated to that task and will not combine its work in this area with any other.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss]

My Lords, I declare an interest as co-chairman of the parliamentary group against human trafficking. I am delighted to hear what the Minister has just said about UKBA and its concentration. Is she aware that many children do not go through the NRM but those who do go through are accommodated by local authorities, which do not have parental responsibility for those children under the Children Act 1989. Does she accept that it is very unsatisfactory that these children have no one with parental responsibility in this country other than, potentially, the traffickers themselves?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

The noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, highlights an important point, which is that we need to ensure that victims of trafficking are referred into what we call the NRM, the national referral mechanism, because it is through that mechanism that they then receive the support and care that they need. She might like to know—I am sure she is already aware of this—that, as part of the Government’s ongoing efforts to improve the way in which we support the victims of this terrible crime, we have commissioned the Refugee Council and the Children’s Society to review our arrangements in this area so we can ensure that best practice in certain local authorities is repeated in all areas. Their report is due to reach us some time later this year.

[Lord Skelmersdale]

My Lords, is it not time that we called a spade a spade and described human trafficking as slavery, which is what it is and which has been illegal in this country for many years?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I like to think of myself as a plain speaker and I understand very much the point that my noble friend is making. However, the term “human trafficking” is one that is recognised internationally. Whether it is called “human trafficking” or “slavery”, the most important thing is that it is a vile crime and we need to stop it.

[Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale]

My Lords, in this week when many of us have been celebrating the role of Dr David Livingstone in ending slavery in east Africa in the 19th century, will the Government make that association between human trafficking and slavery in the 21st century and ensure that international institutions, such as the European Union, the United Nations and others, give appropriate attention to global action, not just national action, to end this horrendous trade in human misery?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

The noble Lord is right. This crime crosses borders and is based on international gangs. In the UK, our law enforcement agencies continue to work with their counterparts overseas on joint investigations to ensure that we tackle this by prevention and not just support people once they are victims of this terrible crime.

[Baroness Howarth of Breckland]

My Lords, as the Minister will know, and as my noble and learned friend Lady Butler-Sloss mentioned, children who are accommodated in care are not made the responsibility of the local authority. When they then go missing, the police often do not follow them up with great astuteness. I have just read in the newspaper that there are to be two categories of missing person for the police. There will be those who have just gone missing and are lost and those who are worth following up. Will the Minister ensure that these children are in the category of those who are worth following up and are the responsibility of a local authority?

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[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

The Home Office is working with partners to address the issue of all children going missing from home and care through its missing children and adults strategy. In addition, work is being taken forward by the Department for Education to improve the quality and consistency of data about when and why children go missing from care. We are very much aware that children who are victims of trafficking sometimes go missing when they go into care because they come into contact again with those who trafficked them. Our priority is to ensure that that does not happen. Those children are very much our priority.

[Lord Spicer]

Will my noble friend join me in congratulating Mr Anthony Steen on the tremendous work that he has done on this matter? Will she use her influence to try to gain him some status for the work that he does here and abroad on the matter?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I am very grateful to my noble friend for raising the subject of the work done by Mr Anthony Steen. I will certainly ensure that my colleagues in the Home Office are properly reminded of it after today’s Question Time.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for the answers that she has given at the Dispatch Box today. This issue unites rather than divides the House. However, the scale of the problem is shocking. We are talking about children sold into slavery or prostitution, or who disappear altogether. Bearing in mind the Government’s proposal to withdraw from the policing and justice provisions of the European Union, will she discuss with her colleagues how we will continue our co-operation with other European countries, given that, as she said, European and worldwide co-operation is so important in tackling this issue?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

As the noble Baroness will be aware, we have signed up to the European directive on human trafficking and will be fully compliant by next month. We attach such importance to this issue that we wanted to ensure that the work that we are doing to co-operate across all boundaries was properly reflected by our subscription to that EU directive. There is no suggestion that we would want to do anything to weaken our commitment in that area.

[Lord Laming]

My Lords, the whole House will agree that people who traffic those children are usually not only heartless but extremely determined and controlling. Does the Minister agree that those who are in the forefront of trying to identify and protect these children need to be even more determined than those who are trafficking them? Can we be assured that examples such as the one referred to will be made more general across the country and that the legislation will be reviewed more thoroughly?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

The noble Lord is absolutely right that our priority has to be about raising awareness of this crime and ensuring that those who are at the front line in a range of different agencies can spot where somebody is being trafficked as, sadly, this is a crime where victims sometimes do not know they are victims. That links to a Question I answered some months ago about child sexual exploitation and the victims of that crime not necessarily knowing that they are being abused in the way that they are. We are investing money in making sure that the professionals at the front line are improving all the time in identifying them. Evidence of that is the fact that more people are being referred to the NRM than have been up to now.

[Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames]

My Lords, given the scale of the problem that noble Lords have mentioned, is it not surprising that since 2009 only 10 people have been convicted of trafficking children into the United Kingdom? Does that not suggest that there is a great deal more work to be done?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My noble friend is right. The level of conviction in this area is sadly low, although there are other convictions. People may have committed trafficking offences, but their conviction is for other offences: rape and so on. My noble friend’s point is valid, and I share it.

[Lord Harris of Haringey]

My Lords, is it possible for the Government to give a firm commitment that vulnerable people, particularly children, who have been trafficked will not be deported back to the country from which they have been trafficked as they are then likely to fall back into the hands of those who have trafficked them?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I refer the noble Lord to the point I made at the beginning about the UKBA now having a team dedicated exclusively to decision-making around victims, which is important in this area. In addition, it is important for me to be clear that the UKBA has a “victims first” attitude. We address the needs of the victim and investigate the crime against them before any consideration is made of an individual’s immigration status. That is secondary in situations such as this.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

I have a background question. As the Minister knows, the Children Act was passed in 1989 and came into force in 1992. Many things have changed since then. Is it intended that there should be a general and comprehensive review of the operation of that statute incorporating the matter raised by my noble and learned friend Lady Butler-Sloss?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I am not aware that we have any plans to review that legislation in the way that the noble Lord proposes, but part of what the interdepartmental ministerial group which looks at human trafficking does is continual monitoring of the legislation to see that it is proper and appropriate for tackling this vile crime.

Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill

Baroness Stowell of Beeston Excerpts

Tuesday 19th March 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote]

My Lords, it is good to get back to the subject of the Bill. I support the amendment of the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock. Although everyone is inevitably suffering under this economic disaster, it is surely completely counterproductive for the Government not to make specific arrangements for those who produce and support children. This is a particularly important generation of children. We will all need to depend upon them and will need to help them develop to their full potential if we are to have a brighter and more economically successful future. Not to do so will also specifically disadvantage—I would argue even discriminate against—women.

Whatever hopes there are for both parents to share childcare in future, to include statutory maternity pay at present would clearly disadvantage women, on whom the main responsibility remains for their children’s upbringing. It will also particularly disadvantage single parents, the vast majority of whom are women. While 30% of all households with children are affected, 95% of lone parents—that is 2 million—are affected by the Bill. The Government have already estimated that the Bill will push a further 200,000 children into poverty, so what effect will this economic deprivation have on this vitally important next generation of children and their well-being?

First, there is their health: the 2010 Marmot review highlighted how poor health is strongly linked to low socioeconomic status. Children in the lowest-income households, for example, are three times as likely to suffer mental health problems as their more affluent peers. At the age of 33 they are at increased risk of severe long-term and life-limiting illness.

Next is their education. The link between economic disadvantage and educational underachievement is widely recognised by academics, as well as by parliamentarians. Children’s cognitive development, related to parental social status, is evident as early as 22 months. The earliest high-achievers from deprived backgrounds are overtaken at five years, with this gap widening by the time children reach 10. DfE figures also show that only 26.6% of secondary school pupils eligible for free school meals achieved five or more A* to C GCSEs, compared with 54.2% for all the rest.

In employment, inevitably, the educational and health inequalities drive a similar divide. Young people who are NEET are more likely to have grown up in socially disadvantaged households, for example, from single-parent households and those where parents also have low educational qualifications.

Finally, there are family relationships and children’s subjective well-being. Living on a low income is stressful and difficult and can, and often does, adversely affect family life and intra-familial relationships, as well as children’s assessment of and satisfaction with their lives. Poverty can make strong parent-child relationships more difficult, and research shows that children growing up in poverty are more likely to suffer from low self-esteem and to be socially isolated.

Having listened to the excellent speech of the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, and a range of other subjects also brought into the conversation, I hope that the Government will find a way to accept this very reasonable amendment.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, I must say to noble Lords on the Benches opposite that we have had a number of debates about the economic context in which we are making these changes, and I have been disappointed that more noble Lords have not found themselves moved to contribute to them so far. I am glad that there have been more contributions to this debate.

[Baroness Hollis of Heigham]

My Lords, I thought that we had discussed this already. Can the noble Baroness help me by describing how we could have made our contributions? As she knows, four or five of us have regularly taken part in social security debates—including my noble friends Lady Lister and Lady Donaghy, and me, among others. If we had made our contributions, does she think that we would have got to the important debates on disability and the 3% trigger amendment before dinner? If not, does she think that it would have been fair to disabled people to exclude them from the possibility of Parliament reconsidering a foolish decision?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

In my short time in this House, we tend to sit until about 10 pm and have debates on amendments at all times that we are sitting. I did not realise that we were expected to have debates before a certain time at night.

Let us focus on statutory maternity pay. I remind the House that the UK has a strong and effective maternity and parental regime. The UK is significantly more generous than the requirements of the EU pregnant workers directive. The directive states that a woman should benefit from 14 weeks paid maternity leave; we provide 39 weeks. The directive states that a woman should receive at least the amount that would be paid for sickness; our standard rate of maternity pay and maternity allowance is £135.45 per week. That compares to the statutory sick pay rate of £85.85 per week. In addition, the latest available data from the OECD show that the proportion of our GDP spent on maternity and parental pay is higher than that in Germany or France.

It is also worth reflecting on the fact that in the past decade, the length of time for which statutory maternity pay was payable more than doubled. Under the previous Government, it was doubled. It is important to be aware of the baseline that we are starting from.

Yes, the decisions that we have to take on statutory maternity pay will mean a slightly smaller increase for people over the next few years, but that is in the context of a strong and effective maternity architecture in our country which will remain firmly in place. Indeed, the Government are committed to make this architecture even stronger. Noble Lords will soon be debating provisions in the Children and Families Bill which allow working parents to choose which parent takes parental leave and parental pay to care for their child in the early years.

It is also important to understand these changes in the context of other government reforms that support women, families and children and help make positive changes to their lives. I said this in Committee, but it is important, so I will repeat it. For example, a woman working full time at the national minimum wage for six months of the tax year who then receives statutory maternity pay for the next six months will still be better off overall as a result of changes to the income tax personal allowance.

We have debated universal credit many times before, and it is acknowledged that its purpose is to make it worth while for people to move back into work. Once universal credit is introduced, some 800,000 out-of-work lone parents would benefit significantly if they started to work just 10 hours per week. In nearly all such cases, these parents would see at least £40 more in their pocket per week than they would have done under the current system. Also as part of universal credit, £200 million extra is being spent to support families with childcare costs. For the first time, this support will be made available for families who work fewer than 16 hours per week. That means 100,000 more working families will be helped with their childcare costs.

Looking ahead, as my noble friend Lord Newby mentioned in one of the earlier debates today, we have set out changes that will increase eligibility of support to five times as many families as currently is the case through a new tax-free childcare scheme. As part of these changes, we have also announced today a further £200 million additional support in universal credit that will provide working families with the equivalent of 85% of their childcare costs where the lone parent or both parents pay income tax.

When referring to various different payments to families, the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, said that she could go on; so could I. There are other things that the Government are doing to support families and women. The support for families that the Government provide is about more than income transfers. I do not deny that families value them and they can make an important difference, but money is often better invested in interventions that really can change lives. In demonstrating this today, I have tried to explain what the Government are doing in addition to the comprehensive support that we provide to new mothers and to show how much there is in providing for families in the right way.

This amendment would reduce savings from the Bill by around £50 million in 2015-16. As I have said, we have taken none of the decisions in this Bill lightly, but we have to recognise that if the savings do not come from the measures set out in the Bill, that could clearly put additional pressures on to public services. The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, mentioned alternatives that he would like to propose. They are not ones that I would point to because these amendments are part of a Bill that is about reducing by a smaller amount the increase that we pay in benefits.

To answer the noble Baroness’s question about why we are including statutory maternity pay, we have sought to address the very significant welfare bill, which I am afraid is unsustainable, but doing so in way to protect the most vulnerable. We discussed and debated that at length earlier today. Regrettable as it is to have to make any reductions or cap any of the increases in the way that we have, the infrastructure and architecture there for women and families are strong. They provide sound support that will make a real change to people’s lives. While I recognise that these are difficult decisions, I hope that I have provided enough assurance to the House to show that the Government take their obligations to parents seriously and that we will continue to provide a supportive environment for new mothers in the years to come. I hope therefore that the noble Baroness can withdraw her amendment.

[Baroness Sherlock]

My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken in this debate, especially to my noble friend Lord Bach for his strong support, and to my noble friend Lady Hollis for her interventions. I am also grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, for a thoughtful and persuasive speech that highlighted the impact of these cuts on the next generation. I thank her for that.

In response to the noble Lord, Lord Bates, I would say three things. First, we have debated this a lot. We sat through the previous stages, and we have all contributed in long form to the Committee stage and reflected a great deal on this. I hope that we now know what each other thinks. Certain noble Lords contributed to every amendment but they did not make five speeches; they made the same speech five times. I am not sure that that took us much further. None the less, we are doing our best here today.

I say to the noble Lord that it is worth noting that the poorest mothers get the flat rate of SMP and are therefore unaffected by any impact on wage growth, so that point would not affect them. On the question of wage suppression, the consequence of that—in fact, of the whole Bill—is a double whammy for those who are finding that their wages are frozen or have been kept down, because these benefits and tax credits are the very things that will normally help to compensate the individuals as well as acting as stabilisers more broadly.

Women: Board Membership

Baroness Stowell of Beeston Excerpts

Thursday 7th March 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, in 2010, the noble Lord, Lord Davies, reviewed the barriers to women reaching the boardrooms of UK plc. Following his report, a voluntary, business-led strategy for the advancement of all women irrespective of their ethnicity was adopted. This is working; for example, the number of FTSE 100 all-male boards has fallen from 21 to six. However, we are not complacent. The most recent figures for women on FTSE 100 boards prove that there is no room for that.

[Baroness Howells of St Davids]

I thank the noble Baroness for her response. She has cited the report from which I was going to quote. It seems absurd that, after more than 30 years of equality legislation, we continue to see only glacial progress in the representation of women on the boards of our 100 most lucrative companies. Women are now successful at university and in their early careers, but attrition rates increase as they progress through those organisations. The companies are missing out. Evidence suggests that companies without strong female representation are less successful because they are unable to draw from the widest possible range. My concern is not women who are European—although I know that they are suffering—but those from black and ethnic minorities who are willing to serve on boards.

[Baroness Howells of St Davids]

I would like to ask the Minister what the Government are doing about that.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

The noble Baroness is absolutely right that we want more women on boards. We do so because they make up more than half of the nation’s talent and we cannot afford for the best and brightest not to be there. The statistics on black and minority ethnic women are not available because the statistics for women on boards are not broken down in that way, but I know anecdotally that they are not great. What I can say to the noble Baroness is that, through a range of measures that the Government are taking, we are ensuring that our effort expands to cover all women. She may like to know that the Women’s Business Council, which we set up to make sure that we address the pipeline so that more women come forward, is chaired by Ruby McGregor-Smith, who is chief executive of MITIE and the only Asian woman chief executive in the FTSE 250. She is chairing that council for the Government because she is so committed to diversity in all its forms.

[Baroness Brinton]

My Lords, 17.5% of FTSE 100 boards are made of up of women. I prefer to use that figure rather than the number of companies that have one token woman on the board. I know that it is below the target set by the noble Lord, Lord Davies, but it is a step forward from the 1990s. Given this very low figure, what steps are the Government taking to ensure that sufficient mentoring and counselling are available to women below board level who have ambitions of rising within companies and breaking through the glass ceiling?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My noble friend is right that mentoring is an important aspect of encouraging more women to put themselves forward for these senior roles. That is an important issue that the Women’s Business Council, which I just referred to, is looking at. I hope that we will see some evidence to help us in its report due out later this year.

[Baroness Wall of New Barnet]

My Lords, I am sure that the noble Baroness is aware of the tremendous investigation and work carried out by my noble friend Lord Davies of Abersoch. One fundamental issue that has come through in that research is that role models start very young. Are the Government consciously working to ensure that young women going from schools into colleges and universities—that is, black women and those from ethnic minorities, but also all women—have that aspiration?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

We certainly need to make sure that all girls at school have high aspirations and that we encourage them to be ambitious. If the noble Baroness is around for the International Women’s Day debate that follows Questions, that is an area that I hope to expand on in my opening speech.

[Lord Kakkar]

My Lords, I declare my interest as a member of Sub-Committee B of your Lordship’s European Union Committee, which was involved in scrutinising a directive provided by the European Commission on this matter. Are Her Majesty’s Government content to accept that directive in view of the fact that both Houses of this Parliament have sent a reasoned opinion raising their concerns about it to the European institutions?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

As the noble Lord knows, the Government very much welcomed the reasoned opinion put forward from this House and the other place. Sadly, I am told that not enough member state Parliaments issued a reasoned opinion for that to be successful in raising what is termed a red card or yellow card in Brussels—I am not sure. As far as we are concerned, we are still actively working with other EU members to make sure that whatever arrives finally from the European Commission supports our own approach to this issue.

[Lord Flight]

My Lords, I believe sincerely that there is a general wish and support for more suitably qualified women on boards. Yet surely the role of directors is to oversee the running of a business and that needs people with the appropriate skills. To the extent that they are representative, they are representative of shareholders and not really in a quantitative context of the nation at large.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

Okay. I say to my noble friend that we need more women on boards because half the people who spend money in the economy are women, as are half the people who have pensions that are part of the investment into those companies that enjoy that benefit. We just bring so much more that I find it astonishing that he does not feel the same way.

International Women’s Day

Baroness Stowell of Beeston Excerpts

Thursday 7th March 2013 Lords Chamber

Moved By

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

That this House takes note of International Women’s Day 2013.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, it is an enormous privilege to introduce the International Women’s Day debate. In the same debate two years ago I made what was then my second speech in your Lordships’ House. I seem to recall the noble Lords present taking a sharp intake of breath when I said then that I had only very recently become familiar with International Women’s Day. My saying that betrayed two things. The first is that, unlike so many Members of this House, I have no claim to involvement in the fantastic advances that have been made in support of women over the past 100 years. Indeed, I feel a great sense of humility when I look down the list of speakers today.

Of course, many other Members of this House—too many to mention—have campaigned hard and achieved so much for the rights of women over the years. However, I would like to mention two Baronesses by name who we have sadly lost from this House over the past year: my late friend Lady Ritchie of Brompton, who founded Women2Win and helped so many women in my own party become MPs; and the late Lady McFarlane of Llandaff, who was one of nursing’s great pioneers and, indeed, the first nurse to become a life Peer.

Secondly, my rather shocking remark betrayed that, unlike many other countries, we here in the UK have not got into the habit of using International Women’s Day simply to celebrate women. In fact, I was talking to some Italian women the other day, who told me that in Italy the men shower them with mimosas on this day. Now, I am especially pleased that six noble Lords of the male variety have joined us, but I reassure them that we are not expecting flowers; I would not want to overburden them coming so soon after Valentine’s day and just before Mothering Sunday. Seriously, though, I am pleased that this is not a women-only debate. We will be discussing issues that affect women, but we cannot address them without the support and input of men.

Today’s debate is a chance for us to draw attention to the serious challenges that women still face here and around the world. Last night, my noble friend here with me on the Front Bench today responded to a very powerful debate about the ongoing use of sexual violence as a weapon of war. This morning we have already responded to Questions, some of them rather interesting, about a range of inequalities affecting women. I am sure that some of these matters, as well as many others, will be raised again, and my noble friend Lady Northover will be pleased to respond to them.

As the person opening today’s debate, I will focus on women and their careers, or more specifically on what we are doing to ensure that we better utilise the talents and skills of all women, whoever they are, wherever they come from and whatever they do. I want to celebrate the contribution of women and talk about how we can support them in achieving their full potential.

The challenges facing women today are very different from those that women faced in the 20th century. We know that in the past British society did not see much value in educating girls. Indeed, this is sadly still true in some parts of the world, as Malala Yousafzai’s ordeal at the hands of the Taliban has shown all too graphically. Here, girls now outperform boys in nearly every subject at nearly every stage of school, yet too many girls lack confidence, self-esteem and ambition.

In the past, women were banned from universities. Now, more young women than young men go to university, yet there are still too many subjects where a female face is rare. As we all know, it was legal in the past to pay women less than men for the same work. Women were barred from too many professions entirely. Getting married could mean losing your job; I will not even mention having a baby. Now we have some of the most comprehensive anti-gender discrimination legislation in the world, yet the gender pay gap remains and women continue to be underrepresented in positions of power and leadership.

It is clear that the way we respond to these very complex modern-day challenges needs a sophisticated, modern approach. The solutions cannot be found simply in more laws, regulations and targets. Of course, finding the solutions is not easy when there is little money around. I realise that women will wonder how we can make their lives better when we also have to make significant cuts in public spending. The truth is that it is not easy, but there are things we can do and are doing.

I will not go through the whole list, but the kinds of measures I am talking about for those on the lowest incomes and most in need include lifting more than 1 million of the lowest-paid workers out of income tax altogether, the majority of whom are women. We will also increase child tax credit by £180 above inflation for low to middle-income families. Where we can we are spending money in ways that empower women and give them real choice and control over their lives.

The top issue that comes up time and again for women is balancing work and family life. Our current inflexible system of maternity and paternity leave makes it incredibly difficult to break down the stereotypical and intrinsic view that women should stay at home and look after the children and men should go out to work and earn the money when a couple start a family. What if the mother earns more? What if she is in a more senior position than the father? What if the father simply wants to take on more of the caring responsibilities? In our modern world the state should not make it harder for parents to choose the best arrangements for their children.

That is why, after an extensive consultation, we announced last November that from 2015 we will introduce a new system of shared parental leave that will make an enormous difference to working women who want to have children. It will mean that if fathers want to take on more of a role, they can. If mothers want to return to work earlier, they can. If parents want to spend some time at home together around the birth of their child, they can. Parents will have a choice.

Crucially, albeit over time, the new parental leave arrangements and the access to flexible working for all employees—the other initiative that we recently announced—will put men and women on a level playing field in the workplace. Employers will no longer be able to assume that only women take a career break to look after their children. For my part, that was one of the biggest things that sold this policy to me.

Until that time arrives, we are also determined to help working women by boosting childcare wherever and whenever we can, especially to those who need it most. This includes but is not limited to 15 free hours a week in a nursery or with a childminder for all three and four year-olds. From September this year that will be extended to two year-olds from the most disadvantaged homes.

Even in flexible and family-friendly workplaces, women can still hit the glass ceiling, so we are working with employers to ensure that there really is no limit to how far women can go in their careers. We have just been talking about women on boards, and as a result of the fantastic work by the noble Lord, Lord Davies, to increase that number, the number of FTSE 100 all-male boards has now halved, and since last March 40% of new appointments to boards have been women —up from 13% in 2010.

There is, however, a pipeline issue for women in executive roles. Our Think, Act, Report initiative to improve transparency on pay and wider workplace equality is helping to make a difference. Employers who sign up make a commitment to identify any barriers to women in their organisation, to take action to address them, and finally to report publicly on their progress. The transparent reporting bit of the scheme is a particularly powerful tool with which to achieve change.

Since the initiative was launched just over a year ago, 73 organisations have signed up. In total, they employ more than 1 million people and include firms such as Marks & Spencer, Tesco, BT, EDF and BP. As of today, they have been joined by the Chartered Management Institute, which has more than 90,000 members and huge outreach to other employers. However, we are not stopping there. Because we recognise that we do not have all the answers, last year we established a Women’s Business Council, made up of exceptionally high achievers in business, to provide advice to government on what we can do to maximise women’s contribution to our future economic growth. It is comprehensively examining the evidence, from the issues and choices facing girls in school right through to the experiences of older women who need to continue working into their retirement but who face diminishing options in the labour market. That council is due to report to the Government later this year.

We need to encourage all women to aspire to and be ambitious for success, but too many young women still do not have the confidence to follow their dreams and, even more distressingly, too many do not have dreams at all. We are trying to change this through measures such as our pupil premium to help schools better support their disadvantaged pupils and close the attainment gap between them and their peers. We are working with schools, advertising, retail and the media to improve perceptions of body image through our Body Confidence campaign so that more young women realise their future will be defined by their talent, hard work and abilities, not by what they look like.

We are encouraging women to choose more of the STEM subjects at A-level and university that will allow them to flourish in today’s economy, and we are giving them the skills they need to succeed. Noble Lords might be interested to know that last year, for the first time, more women started an apprenticeship than men, but let me say something about aspiration, ambition and success, about which I feel very strongly. There are many definitions of success. It is vital that we have more women in positions of power, whether in business or politics. We want those women on boards. We need more women around the Cabinet table, as the Prime Minister said very recently.

However, we must not forget that many women have no desire for that kind of success. They might want to run their own business instead or be a doctor specialising in a particular field of medicine. Just because people who work in Parliament enjoy power, we must not think that everyone else does. We have to be honest here: there are also many women for whom reaching the top of the tree is not a realistic ambition. By concentrating so much on the high achievers, or telling people to aim for the very top, I worry that sometimes, without meaning to, we diminish other people’s achievements and even discourage them from being ambitious at all.

I would like to recount a story about a friend of mine called Julie. She is an undertaker. She is roughly the same age as me and left school with little in the way of formal qualifications, so was put on what we then called a YOP scheme. I am sure she will not mind my sharing this story with the House. On her first day at work, she thought that the funeral company’s office was a car showroom when she turned up because of all the big black cars outside. After a few false starts and once she had got over the shock that she was working at a funeral director’s, she knuckled down and started to progress up the undertaker ladder.

After a few years, Julie was put in charge of its new Beeston branch, which included arranging funerals. That is a difficult task, as it means talking to people when they are at their most vulnerable. However, she was good at it, so much so that the family of a teenage boy who had been killed in a dreadful accident requested that Julie direct the funeral as well and be the person leading the cortege. She had never done that before and it was a massive step. Because the family insisted that she did this, the firm quickly rustled up a uniform for her and she did it. She was magnificent. She was so proud and walked through Beeston in front of that hearse as if she had been doing it for years. As she had been so successful, she was given that additional responsibility and started to build a strong personal reputation throughout the town. Word got around that she was very dedicated and good at her job. After a further few years, after she had a short maternity break, she tried to return to work but unfortunately was not able to agree mutual terms at her old firm, and that was that; at least, it could have been.

Not many avenues were open to Julie and it would have been easy for her to enter a system that led to nowhere. After a while, however, she spotted some premises which she thought would make an ideal funeral home. With the support of people who knew her reputation and that she was a sound investment, she set up her own funeral directing business. That was five years ago and the business is now thriving, so much so that she keeps six people employed in full-time work and provides regular casual work to another four.

I told you Julie’s story to make this simple point; she is as much a role model to the young women of Beeston as I might like to think I can be. As much as we want all girls to be ambitious at school and aspire to great things, because that is the most secure route to success, those who do not can still achieve their own very worthwhile version of success if they aim to be the best at whatever they find themselves doing.

Tomorrow is International Women’s Day, and the Government are doing a range of things to mark the event. We are, very simply, celebrating all women. I hope all noble Lords will join us, and I look forward to all the contributions that will be made today, especially from the right reverend Prelate, who has chosen a debate about women to make his maiden speech, which I am sure will be very interesting. I beg to move.

Guaranteed Minimum Pensions Increase Order 2013

Baroness Stowell of Beeston Excerpts

Wednesday 6th March 2013 Lords Chamber

Moved By

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

That the draft order laid before the House on 28 January be approved.

Relevant documents: 15th and 18th Reports from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, considered in Grand Committee on 28 February.

Motion agreed.

Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill

Baroness Stowell of Beeston Excerpts

Tuesday 5th March 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Sherlock]

My Lords, this has been an interesting brief debate, introduced by my noble friend Lady Lister with her now characteristic blend of expertise and passion. I am sure that we are all grateful to her for opening up the question so well. The quotes that she shared with the Committee about children arriving hungry at school and mothers missing meals and going without themselves to protect their children from the effects of poverty were, on one level, not a surprise to any of us, but they are still shocking. They should be profoundly shocking.

I found the point made by the right reverend Prelate very interesting and I understand why he would like those assurances from both sides of the Committee. My noble friend Lord McKenzie of Luton made Labour’s position clear at the beginning of our first day in Committee. It is this: if we were in government right now, we would be uprating benefits in line with inflation. However, we cannot make a commitment at this stage for the next Parliament. My view is that that is not a good idea anyway. We are fundamentally opposed to the whole principle in the Bill of fixing the levels of uprating for a period. We have perfectly good mechanisms for uprating benefits annually in line with inflation in the light of prevailing economic circumstances. To be honest, I would not want to be tempted into anything other than maintaining that position, but I fully understand why the right reverend Prelate is pressing the concerns that he is pressing.

I also found the comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope, very interesting. He drew in the spatial dimensions of poverty and the wide-ranging regional issues. That is something that we may come back to. I particularly agreed with his point about the need to monitor what is going on. The next amendment that I shall move encourages the Government to look specifically at the impact on child poverty. I also support the noble Lord’s point about the need for a cumulative assessment of all the changes between 2010 and now—a point made very strongly by my noble friend Lady Hollis at earlier stages of debate.

Since the Bill cannot help but drive down standards of living for families, what assessment have the Government made of the likely impact on the well-being of the poorest adults and children of what is effectively a real-terms cut in benefits and tax credits, not just over the year ahead, but over the three years covered by the first uprating and the two years of this Bill? It would be very helpful to the Committee to understand what assessment the Government have made. At a time when three new food banks are opening every week and even families in work are finding it a struggle to make ends meet, the state needs to take particular care to demonstrate that resources are gathered and distributed in a way that is fair to everyone. In the light of that, I shall be very interested to hear what the Minister has to say.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, for moving this amendment and explaining her thinking. Of course, I recognise the serious issues that she and other noble Lords have raised during the course of this debate. I would not claim first-hand experience of living on benefits, so I do not bring to this debate any presumption about those on benefits finding what we are doing anything other than difficult, but is an inescapable fact that when setting benefit levels successive Governments have sought to strike a balance between the needs of claimants, maintaining work incentives and affordability.

Indeed, the current uprating legislation recognises this explicitly. The Social Security Administration Act 1992 requires the Secretary of State to make his annual review of benefit levels based on the increase in prices. He is then given discretion as to how to uprate certain benefits, having regard to the national economic situation and any other matters that he considers relevant. Parliament therefore requires the Secretary of State to take certain issues into account when considering the level at which the benefits in question are set. In bringing forward this Bill, we have considered these issues carefully and struck a balance between providing a cash increase, protecting certain key benefits and making necessary savings.

Benefit levels also have a significant bearing on work incentives. The complexity of the current system largely arises from successive Governments’ attempts to balance benefit income against work incentives. That is why universal credit is such an important measure as it applies a single set of rules focused on maintaining the incentive to take up work or more work. In response to some of the points made in this debate, I shall say something that I know is shared around the Committee. This Government believe that work is the best route out of poverty, and that is why we are focused on making sure that work pays.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I have laid out for the Committee the measures that are there and have been put forward by the Treasury. The noble Baroness wants to put forward some alternative statistics. Let me get back to the point I was making about the arrangements that are being put in place to ensure that, when we move into the implementation phase, support is available for those who need it, if there are any people who are not properly covered by the changes that we are making.

The noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, referred to local authorities when he was talking about this. The local authorities and the Scottish and Welsh Governments would get £178 million to deliver new local welfare provision. They will develop local schemes to help those facing a crisis or short-term unavailable need. On the arrangements for people moving from weekly receipt of payments to monthly receipt, a whole range of different programmes is being put in place to support people in budgeting and making sure that they have the support that they need to manage the changes that are being brought about—changes that we believe will have the right effect in ensuring that this is a much simpler and more effective welfare system.

The noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, and the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, also referred in this context to food banks. I point out to noble Lords that one reason why there has been an increase in the use of food banks is because the Government were clear that we wanted Jobcentre Plus advisers to be able to signpost their availability to claimants. For reasons that noble Lords on the other side of the House will presumably be able to explain, this was not possible before. The Trussell Trust director has said that he thinks that there has been a need there for a while, but the growth in the number of volunteers and the awareness that you can get this help if you need it explains the growth in this area.

[Lord Martin of Springburn]

Is it not a sad day when a government Minister has to stand up and say that food banks will be made available? Our children should not have to depend on food banks in this day and age.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

It is a sad fact that people should have to rely on food banks; I absolutely acknowledge that point and do not dispute it at all. The point I am making to the Committee is that Jobcentre Plus staff are now permitted to signpost the fact that they are available, whereas previously they were not permitted to do so. I am not suggesting that the fact that they exist is to be applauded at all, but it would be wrong for Jobcentre Plus staff not to be able to say that they are there to people who might be able to take some advantage of them just because we do not want to make that facility known.

[Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton]

The Minister is speaking as though the only people using food banks are those who go to the jobcentres. Surely, from my experience and that of other noble Lords, many of the people who are now using food banks are actually in employment. As things like the bedroom tax bite, more people in employment will lose out on what benefits were available to them.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Hollis of Heigham]

My Lords, to add to my noble friend’s point, my obviously localised and limited experience of food banks has been that before about 2010, in so far as they were in play, food banks were mostly drawn upon by young people. These were very often young men aged under 25 who were getting the shared rate for housing benefit in the private rented sector and found, as Shelter and others have told us over the years, that it did not match the rent they were required to pay; it was a very discrete group. They, in my localised experience, often had to turn to food banks to cope. Now the Government have extended that limitation on housing benefit from 25 to 35, while producing additional pressures right across the benefits spectrum, as my noble friend Lady Farrington has said. It is a disgraceful aspect of the fifth-richest nation in the world that so many of our people have to make recourse to food banks because our benefit system does not sustain them in the way it should.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, I do not for one moment suggest that food banks are something on which anybody would want to have to rely. I completely agree with the noble Baroness in that regard. My point is simply that the fact they exist—

[Lord Martin of Springburn]

I suggest to the Minister that we should be ashamed that this is happening. I was brought up in the 1950s in a family of the poorest of the poor, and my parents would not have dreamt of going to a food bank. All these years later, we are talking of parents and children having to go to a food bank. If this so-called facility exists, the Government should do something to eradicate the need for food banks.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, food banks have existed for a long time. They have not been introduced in recent times—that was the point I tried to make by quoting the director of the Trussell Trust. I am not trying to make any point about this whatever. I do not for one moment suggest that anybody in this House should feel anything other than great disappointment that anybody should have to use a food bank. I am making a simple point. All noble Lords have been clear about their views, and certainly I am not here to disagree with the arguments they made. Let me move on.

The noble Baroness, Lady Lister, while accepting the need to strike a balance, argued none the less that a report into the adequacy of benefit levels would be useful, as it would help people better understand where benefit incomes sit in relation to the rest of society, and so would help inform the debate. This approach relies on the idea that we could produce figures that would concretely situate benefit incomes in relation to an objective adequate level. The desire to draw conclusions on the adequacy of benefit levels has always been fraught with technical difficulties. In 1985, the then Government looked at this issue and concluded that,

“it is doubtful whether an attempt to establish an objective standard of adequacy would be fruitful … all such assessments would themselves include judgements on the standards to be achieved”.

This view was echoed in the previous Labour Government’s consultation exercise on measuring child poverty, which concluded that,

“despite a wide range of research into budget standards, there is no simple answer to the question of what level of income is adequate … Different research methods tend to make different assumptions that are essentially subjective”.

Similarly, during her time as Minister at the Department for Work and Pensions, the right honourable Margaret Hodge said, when asked what assessment the Government had made of the minimum income a household needed to live on:

“Our concerns about research on minimum income standards have been well documented. What people need to live on varies greatly depending on their needs and a range of factors. Different research methods tend to make different assumptions and generate a range of estimates”.—[Official Report, Commons, 7/2/06; col. 1163W.]

The noble Baroness, Lady Lister, also raised the issue of minimum income standards, and suggested that this metric could be used as a measure of benefit adequacy. We will continue to take note and look carefully at the evidence from research on minimum income standards. However, I do not believe that minimum income standards provide an appropriate comparator when considering the adequacy of benefit rates.

The Joseph Rowntree Foundation’s minimum income standard is a relatively new metric—the first report was in 2008—and there is no international consensus on how this should relate to setting benefit standards. Minimum income standards are informed by public perception so can change even if prices do not. For example, the rate for a couple with two children increased by a third between 2008 and last year—more than twice the rate of inflation. Moreover, it is important to remember that most working-age benefits are intended to provide temporary support during periods of interruption to employment, whereas the minimum income standard is focused on more long-term living standards. The Bill does not, of course, affect long-term benefits, such as those paid to pensioners or those relating to additional needs arising from disability.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Hollis of Heigham]

My Lords, the Minister seems to imply throughout her speeches that there is a distinction between those receiving benefits and those who are in work, and that you have to maintain that gap to produce work incentives. That seems to be her argument. However, she knows that two-thirds of the current expenditure on housing benefit and tax credits goes to people in work on the minimum wage to make that wage adequate to enable them and their families to survive. Therefore, will she please refrain from talking about the need to maintain work incentives when the only way that there is an incentive to work is when it is underpinned by benefits?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

With the introduction of universal credit, we will make sure that that is always the case. Therefore, I do not disagree with the noble Baroness at all.

The noble Baroness, Lady Lister, referred to the Government’s decision to move from RPI to CPI as the appropriate index of inflation. The Government believe that CPI is a more appropriate measure than RPI when considering the impact of inflation on benefits and pensions. It is worth saying that the judicial review of the switch from RPI to CPI found in the Government’s favour and we continue to believe that CPI is a more appropriate index. As an example of the costs involved, uprating the benefits and payments in this Bill by earnings would reduce the savings by £1.8 billion of the total of £1.9 billion in 2015-16 and, if we did so by RPI, would wipe out all the savings and cost an additional £700 million in 2015-16.

As regards paragraph (b) of the amendment, while I cannot predict the decisions that will be made by future Governments, once the provisions in the current Bill cease to have effect, the default position will be for uprating decisions to be made in line with pre-existing legislation.

In referring noble Lords to the comments made by the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, during last week’s debate, I was going to mention his reluctance to say what his party would do if it was in government. Indeed, he was even more than reluctant; he refused to say what it would do. However, the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, has commented on that point today.

For social security benefits and statutory payments, the default position will be for uprating decisions to be made under Section 150 of the Social Security Administration Act 1992, meaning that the Secretary of State will make an annual review of benefit levels to see whether they have kept pace with the increase in the general level of prices. If prices have increased, he will then make a decision about how he should uprate the benefits covered by the Bill, based on the national economic situation and other factors he considers relevant. For tax credits, the default position is that the Treasury is required under Section 41 of the Tax Credits Act 2002 to review the amounts of certain elements of tax credits each year to determine whether they have retained their value in relation to the general level of prices.

Before I conclude, I refer to the question put by the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, about an assessment of the changes that we are making via this Bill on the well-being of adults and children. In response—and it was a point that I made in Committee last week—this Government publish cumulative impacts of government policy at every major fiscal event. We did so at the time of the Autumn Statement last year. Those assessments include the effects of any changes in welfare and ensure that the other positive measures being introduced in relation to tax rates and so on are taken into account. That represents an increase in transparency when compared with what was in place hitherto. The assessments are publicly available on the Treasury’s website.

This has clearly been a serious debate and I am grateful for the opportunity to respond. I hope that in future debates I am able to expand a little further on some of my comments because I am concerned that in some of my points I was not as clear as I intended to be. I will ensure that when I speak in later debates I am much clearer about the importance we place on ensuring that proper consideration and monitoring are taking place in the implementation of all these changes. If any additional measures are required to support people who are affected in a way that goes beyond that which we are expecting, we will make sure that they have the support they need.

[The Lord Bishop of Ripon and Leeds]

My Lords, following the Minister’s final comments, can I check that the default position after 2015-16 will be that there would be CPI increases based on the lower level that benefits will have reached by then?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

It will be based on the benefits that exist at that time.

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett]

I start by thanking the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Ripon and Leeds for supporting the amendment so powerfully. He asked for a sense of direction. I fear that we have a sense of direction but it is not one that either the right reverend Prelate or I feel happy about. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, who, as ever, has brought important issues to light. I also thank my noble friend Lady Sherlock who again made a powerful speech. I also thank the Minister, whose attempt to deal with the issues raised by the amendment I acknowledge and appreciate. She was given rather a hard time but I am sure that she will understand because people feel strongly about the implications of the Bill and the effect it will have on benefits. I should like to address a number of her points.

First, my noble friend Lady Hollis picked the Minister up on this mantra that work is the best route out of poverty. Of course we all agree with that, except that work is not always the best route out of poverty because some people are going to work and are in poverty. As well as the point made by my noble friend, there seems to be an assumption that if we depress benefit levels we are somehow making it more likely that we will push people into paid work. I always remember work on lone-parent families carried out by another poverty guru, Alan Marsh of the Policy Studies Institute. He pointed to evidence that,

“a malign spiral of hardship, poor health and low morale … builds up its own barriers to work”.

He found that those in severe hardship were three to four times more likely to suffer low morale, compared with those who were not in hardship. He very wisely commented:

“It is quite hard to contemplate work if you are that demoralised and hard up”.

That is why we must not assume that keeping benefits low is necessarily going to improve work incentives.

The Minister made a point that I found quite chilling. She said: “It has never been the intention to alleviate poverty through benefit payment”. That is not my understanding: I thought that the whole point of benefits was to try to alleviate poverty. I am dismayed by that statement.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

What I said was that we believed it was misguided to try to lift people over the 60%-of-median-income line through benefit increases alone, because this would not change their lives or their children’s since it would not tackle the reason they found themselves in poverty in the first place.

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett]

I accept that, but I wrote down what the noble Baroness said. She said: “It has never been the intention to alleviate poverty through benefit payment”. I wrote it down. If she wants to retract that statement, I would be delighted.

[Baroness Hollis of Heigham]

I think it was at the point when the Minister said that unemployment benefits were only intended to be temporary while people were in between work, and that therefore they were never expected to address poverty as such. That is the problem that we are worried about.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

This is a debate about the adequacy of benefit rates, not about benefits in a package of what people receive. The difference here is that if somebody is in receipt of a combination of different benefits—housing benefit, jobseeker’s allowance and so on—I can absolutely see the point that the noble Baroness is making. What I am saying in the context of a debate about how to set the rate of a benefit is that benefits alone do not alleviate poverty.

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett]

I thank the Minister for her clarification. I think I can take it that it is not the Government’s position that benefits are not there to alleviate poverty; I hope that is right. The noble Baroness must remember that not everybody can take the route into paid work: there are some people of working age who will be on benefits for a considerable length of time and we cannot just say, “Oh well, they don’t matter”.

There was quite a lot of discussion about food banks. It just so happened that I chaired a meeting the other week for a group called Just Fair, where the director of the Trussell Trust was speaking. He pointed out the exponential increase in the number of food banks over recent years. The increase is huge. That meeting was addressed by the UN rapporteur on the right to food. He made it very clear that he did not see food banks as any kind of solution to the problem of food poverty. I accept that the Minister was not saying that she was happy about the spread of food banks, but I think she was, perhaps, underplaying the extent to which they have spread recently. I do not think it is simply because Jobcentre Plus is now acting as a signpost.

I was disappointed that the noble Baroness was referring back to quotes from 1985 about the difficulties of establishing the adequacy of benefits. Research has become a lot more sophisticated since then and there is a growing consensus—although clearly not on those Benches—around the work done on minimum income standards. When my noble friend Lady Sherlock asked about impact, I do not think she was asking for the same kind of impact statement that we have been talking about—the numbers and so forth. She was asking for an impact on well-being. Local authorities are now supposed to address the well-being of everyone in their areas. What impact is this Bill—together with all the other things that are happening—going to have on the well-being of children and their parents? This goes back to what the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, was saying about monitoring. Monitoring is not simply about numbers: it is about what it is going to mean to the lives of some of the most deprived members of our community.

I am disappointed that the Minister is not prepared to accept an amendment which is not about spending money; it is about trying to let us better understand the principles that should govern our social security system when times are easier. However, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, I start by making it absolutely clear that, contrary to what the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, has just said, the United Kingdom has a strong and effective maternity and parental regime. The UK is significantly more generous than the requirements of the EU pregnant workers directive. The directive says that a woman should benefit from 14 weeks’ paid maternity leave; we provide 39 weeks. It also says that a woman should receive at least the amount that would be paid for sickness; our standard rate of maternity pay and maternity allowance is £135.45. This compares very favourably with the current statutory sick pay rate of £85.85 per week.

In addition, the latest available data from the OECD from the previous financial year show that the proportion of our GDP spent on maternity and parental pay is higher than in Germany or France. Moreover, in the past decade, the standard rates of statutory maternity pay and maternity allowance, which is the allowance that is paid to women who are not in work who have children, or who were not in work prior to the birth of their child, have increased by more than 35%, from £100 a week in 2003 to £135.45 currently. So while I accept that the decisions we have taken on statutory maternity pay will mean a slightly smaller increase for people over the next few years, the UK’s strong and effective maternity architecture will remain firmly in place.

The noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, referred to what she described as a mummy tax and to media reports on it. I am slightly surprised that she referred to Mumsnet because when her honourable colleague Rachel Reeves published an article on Mumsnet on what she described as a mummy tax back in December last year, the blog attracted a lot of comment. It is worth highlighting some of the points that were made. Most of the contributors were at pains to say that they were not supporters of, or spokesmen for, the Government, or supporters of either of the two parties in government. One contributor said:

“I despise this latest Labour ‘Mummy Tax’ campaign. For one, the name ‘Mummy tax’ is hugely patronising and sexist for people in a relationship as my husband benefits from maternity pay just as much as me as all our household income is pooled. And let’s be clear although there is a real terms cut due to the rate of inflation, this change is not a tax”.

The comments continued and attracted quite a lot of support. Another contributor responding to the post on Rachel Reeves said:

“I’ve had no pay rise for the last 3 years and we are getting nothing this year and told to expect the same for the next 2-3 years—is that a tax? No, it’s just the real world and I have to get on with it. I’ve had a child during that time and we had to work around what we could afford with regard to length of maternity leave and to be honest £180 would have made no difference whatsoever. I despise the term ‘mummy tax’—it’s a patronising media friendly sound bite, which creates a hugely distracting perception of the middle class having to cut back on cappuccinos whilst on maternity leave which removes debate from the real issue. I would like to see the labour party setting out what it would do in power and challenging the government instead of wheeling yet more spin and inaccurate bluster”.

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett]

I am sorry to interrupt the noble Baroness. I accept that that must have been said on Mumsnet and I have to admit that I do not particularly like the term “mummy tax” either, but does she accept that while it is the case that the mother who posted on Mumsnet pooled her income, research that I and others have carried out shows that for many women having a benefit in their own right is important to them psychologically? They receive money over which they have control, whether or not they then pool it in the household. Not all households pool their incomes. Some do and some do not.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

That is a fair point. The people who were posting on the internet at that time were responding to the comments of Rachel Reeves about the proposals having a disproportionate impact on women, and only women.

Away from the debate on Mumsnet, the Government are committed to make this architecture for women stronger. The provisions in the Children and Families Bill, which had its Second Reading in another place last week, will allow working parents to choose which parent takes parental leave and pay to care for their child in the early years. This will give mothers real choice over when and whether they return to work. This is helpful in two big ways—where the woman is the higher earner and in starting to chip away at the inequality that some women face at work just because it is assumed that they and only they will take a break in their careers to have children. Our proposals will start to make a big difference.

It is also important to remember that the Government have introduced other reforms that will help to offset the impacts of these changes. For example, a woman working full time at national minimum wage for six months of the tax year, who then receives statutory maternity pay for the next six months, will still be better off overall as a result of changes to the income tax personal allowance. The introduction of universal credit will also provide a big boost for many mothers and lone parents, with 2.6 million women and 700,000 lone parents expected to gain through increased take-up and improved financial incentives to work. In addition, as part of the introduction of universal credit, £200 million extra is being spent to support families with childcare costs. For the first time, this support will be made available for families who work less than 16 hours a week. This will mean that 100,000 more working families will be helped with their childcare costs. That is important, because it means that even if someone is able to take on only a small amount of work, they will get that support for childcare costs to which they previously would not have had access. In another move that will be helpful to mothers and parents, as my noble friend Lord Newby mentioned, we have committed to introduce 15 hours a week of early education for 40% of two year-olds, starting with the most disadvantaged.

The Government will also continue to make extra support available for mothers on low incomes to buy the basic goods that they need. We have a programme called Healthy Start, and the Sure Start maternity grant—a lump sum payment of £500—is available to help parents with the costs of having a new child. I know that the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, said that this is now available only to parents who have a child and no other child under the age of 16. However, this support is additional to the money that parents receive through their statutory maternity pay. Bear in mind that if there is another child in the home, some of the initial substantial expenses of having a family often are not repeated if they have a second child.

The amendment would reduce savings from the Bill by around £50 million in 2015-16. None of the decisions contained in the Bill are easy. I recognise that the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, would prefer that we did not include statutory maternity pay in the Bill. I would like that, too. I would love it if we could say, “Let’s exclude this or that”. However, as my noble friend said in our previous debates, every time we say that we will not include something in the Bill, we have to look somewhere else for the money. That £50 million is not a small sum and is equivalent to more than 20,000 part-time nursery places for three to four year-olds. This is money that will cover substantial support that rightly we provide to mothers and families in other ways.

I hope that I have been able to demonstrate that there is a strong architecture to support women when they have children. I therefore hope that the noble Baroness feels able to withdraw her amendment.

[Baroness Hollis of Heigham]

My Lords, the Minister regularly makes the point that if we do not have these savings the money must come from somewhere else, such as nurses’ salaries, teachers, the NHS, schools or whatever. I hope that she appreciates that most of us on this side believe that the Government are making a political policy choice. It does not have to fall on children, disabled children or statutory maternity pay. As some of us argued at Second Reading—there were different shopping lists—we are spending £32 billion on tax relief for private pensions, of which £8 billion goes to subsidise the tax relief that higher-rate taxpayers currently enjoy. To continue that is a political policy choice. The money would pay for most of these cuts twice over.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

As I have said on several occasions, these cuts are necessary because of the financial situation that we found ourselves in. They are not something that we want to have to do, but we believe that these are the right cuts to make because we have made sure that we have, wherever possible, protected those who are least able to increase their income by different means. While these are not cuts that we want to introduce at all, we think that we have done so sensibly and by addressing people in the right way, as anybody would expect us to do. That is the situation that we have found ourselves in and the decision that we have made.

[Baroness Hollis of Heigham]

My Lords, I do not think that anyone doubts the Minister’s good will, integrity or concern about these issues. That is not the issue. All that I am saying—and she has not answered this—is that those cuts could fall elsewhere, and she, on behalf of the Government, is choosing for them not to fall elsewhere on people who could afford to pay for them.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I would say to the noble Baroness that while she and the right reverend Prelate are willing to put forward their alternatives on where they would target cuts if they were in a position to make those decisions—and I respect them for doing that—her colleagues on her own Front Bench have so far refused to do so. We have made these decisions in this area. We have done so in a way whereby we have protected those who are most vulnerable. We would much rather not have to do this but we believe that it is necessary because of the economic situation that we find ourselves in and because we think that this is, in the end, the right thing to do to secure a strong economy for the future.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lady Lister for displaying yet again her knowledge of and passion for a very important subject and I pay tribute to all noble Lords who have spoken in this debate for their work on the cross-party inquiry. Some important issues have been raised, such as that of asylum seekers not being able to access paid work as a route to dealing with the circumstances they find themselves in, worrying reports about 10,000 children and extra costs that are imposed on public services such as the NHS, which were identified by the noble Lord, Lord Avebury. Clearly, that report is a telling report but it is a report currently for Government. However, we, too, will have to reflect on it as well.

The principle here is that we must be able to provide support to those in genuine need but must do so in a way that minimises incentives to economic migrants who could undermine public support for genuine refugees. There is an issue here that we need to be frank about. There is a balance between dealing with the issue of benefit tourism and separating that out from the needs of genuine asylum seekers. It complicates the picture. An important issue has been raised today and an important report has been prepared. It is currently for the Government to give their views on it, but we will have to reflect on its contents.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, the purpose of this schedule is to set out benefits, payments and tax credits to which the Bill provisions apply. Paragraph 1 refers to sums of social security benefits, payments and child benefit covered by Clause 1. Paragraph 2 of the schedule sets out the relevant amounts of tax credits covered by Clause 2.

The debate has of course been about asylum seeker benefits. As the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, acknowledged in her opening remarks, asylum seeker benefits fall under the remit of the Home Office and the UK Border Agency and are not part of this Bill. As has been said, there is an ongoing review of our approach to asylum support. In response to a question as to when this will conclude, we expect to finish conducting our inquiries before the end of the financial year. As the review is ongoing, there are some questions that I will not be able to answer, but I am none the less grateful for this opportunity to lay out how support for asylum seekers is provided.

As noble Lords have acknowledged, there are two types of support. First, there is support provided to those people who have made an application for asylum that has not yet been decided. That is provided under Section 95 of the Immigration and Asylum Act. People in that context are usually described as people under Section 95. Secondly, there are people who have been found by the UK Border Agency and by the courts not to need protection in the UK, but who cannot return home due to a temporary problem. They are provided for under Section 4 of the Immigration and Asylum Act. That is the Section 4 to which several noble Lords have referred today.

As noble Lords are aware, the support provided is expressly intended to meet people’s essential needs. By that we mean their food, toiletries and clothing. As an example, a family of four receiving Section 95 support while the decision on their application is pending is given £178 per week to cover these essential costs. The same family receiving Section 4 support is given £151 per week. The levels of support provide for the fact that asylum seekers have, as has been acknowledged by noble Lords, fully-furnished, rent-free accommodation with household equipment, utilities and council tax included. This support is temporary in its nature. It is true to say that the allowance is less than income support equivalents but that is because the recipients do not have to pay for other things such as utility bills or other costs associated with running a household.

Likewise, new mothers receiving asylum support do not have to buy a cot or things of that kind because sterilising equipment and such things are provided. They are given a grant to help pay for a pram and clothing. Healthcare and schooling are also provided. In addition to the weekly subsistence rates, families receive the following benefits. A single one-off payment of £300 may be provided to asylum seekers to help with the costs arising from the birth of a new baby. This is different from the maternity grant provided by DWP as recipients will not need to cover the costs of a new cot, stair gates and sterilising equipment. Pregnant women and young children aged between one and three each receive an additional £3 per week, and babies under one receive an additional £5 per week. Assistance with travel costs to medical appointments is available on application.

For those receiving Section 95 support, children receive between 80% and 90% of the equivalent mainstream benefits. Children on Section 4 support, which is intended to be temporary while their parents arrange travel home, receive over 60% of equivalent mainstream benefits.

[Lord Avebury]

This is the third or fourth time that my noble friend has mentioned that the arrangements under Section 4 are temporary, but will she acknowledge that some people remain on them for many years? In one case that we were told about, I think it was seven years.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I was going to refer to the complaints that have been made about delays in dealing with Section 4 cases. These problems have been acknowledged by the department. Efforts have been made to address the causes behind those delays and there have been some improvements.

The noble Baroness, Lady Lister, said that disabled people receive no additional support. If asylum seekers have higher needs, they are supported by their local authority under an old Act, the National Assistance Act 1948. My noble friend Lord Avebury asked whether disabled children would receive higher value support. Again, that is a matter for individual local authorities, which will have considered the needs of the child and conducted a relevant assessment. My noble friend also asked whether these arrangements are compatible with the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, and the answer to that is yes. The UK Border Agency is bound by its Section 55 duty to consider the best interests of children. As I have said, fully furnished free accommodation, education and healthcare are provided, plus an allowance to meet the need for food, clothes and other essential items.

Although I acknowledge the strength of feeling that has been expressed by noble Lords about the difficulties that inevitably are faced by people who come to this country seeking asylum, when comparing asylum support rates across Europe, our research shows that the UK is comparatively generous in family cases, providing more to an asylum-seeking family of four than countries like Sweden or Denmark. Further, as I have mentioned, there is an ongoing review of our approach to asylum seeker support and we expect to finish conducting our inquiries shortly. We are taking account of the views of partners, including the recommendations of the Children’s Society. We will want to ensure coherence with the mainstream benefit system and the financial constraints being faced. The noble Baroness, Lady Lister, asked for further details about the evidence that is being considered in the course of the review. I shall see whether I can write to her with further details on that.

It is worth saying that there is no statutory obligation to carry out an annual review of asylum support rates. Instead, Parliament has set a clear benchmark that the support provided must meet the “essential living needs” of recipients of Section 95 support and that it must provide “accommodation” to recipients of Section 4 support. It would be wrong to raise expectations in this area given the current constraints on the funding available, but we are committed to an approach to asylum support that is fair, reasonable and balanced. No one who has sought our protection need be destitute while waiting for an application to be decided, but if the application is refused and the decision is upheld by the courts, we expect people to return home. Perhaps I may add that if someone is granted asylum, if they are in need of benefits they will transfer on to the domestic regime, which ensures that they receive the same benefits as anyone else in this country under the normal rules that apply.

If I have failed to address all of the detailed questions put by my noble friend Lord Avebury and, indeed, if there are any others, I will follow them up in writing. I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, for the opportunity to set out the support that is provided and I hope that I have been able to reassure her and other noble Lords that the Government continue to take this matter very seriously. I hope that she will withdraw her objection to the schedule.

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, and the right reverend Prelate for their powerful support in this debate, and I thank my noble friend Lord McKenzie for accepting that perhaps our side will have to reflect on the findings of the inquiry. That was very welcome. I also thank the Minister for her full reply and for the good news that the review is expected to conclude by the end of this financial year. That is one good piece of news. When she writes to noble Lords, perhaps she will also say whether the review will be published so that we can read the full results.

I want to make only one point because I am conscious that noble Lords are waiting for the next debate. I turn to the question of “temporary”, which was picked up by the noble Lord, Lord Avebury. I would point out that a Written Answer in the other place last week stated that the average time spent on Section 95—not Section 4—was 525 days. That is a long time to be living on such a low income.

It has been useful to have this debate. Although I cannot welcome everything the Minister has said, I do welcome her acknowledgment of the importance of these issues and the fact that the review is about to conclude. I do not intend to oppose the schedule.

Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill

Baroness Stowell of Beeston Excerpts

Monday 4th March 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Thornton]

My Lords, I am greatly honoured to follow the lead offered by the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell, and all the speeches that have been made today. When you are on the Front Bench, it is always easy to put your name to amendments but on this occasion I felt that it was very important that the Government heard the voices of the Back Benches of your Lordships’ House. I felt—as has been proved to be the case—that people would feel passionately that the Government are in the wrong place and that Section 3 should not be removed.

I have two questions for the Minister. The first partly follows the remarks made by the noble Baroness, Lady O’Neill. It concerns the recent briefing from the EHRC, which states that, on the one hand,

“that the inclusion in its founding legislation of a unifying principle to bridge equality and human rights is important”,

but that, on the other hand, perhaps the answer to the dilemma of Section 3 would be a simpler purpose clause which described the commission,

“as the national expert on equality and human rights”,

and the strategic regulator for equality. It is not quite the poetic and aspirational language in the current legislation. Do the Government regard this intervention at this stage of the Bill as helpful or not?

I think that it muddies the water quite considerably. It adds force to the argument put by the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell. Let us be clear, the Government started by wanting to delete the section completely for reasons which the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, has demolished. However, if they want to change it and if the EHRC is suggesting that it should be changed, this is surely not the place to do so. This has to be a matter of great consideration and discussion among all the different organisations and across both Houses of Parliament. That was the import we gave Section 3 at the beginning in 2006. I suggest that the latest intervention by the EHRC on this matter serves only to underline the case that we should not go down the route proposed by the Government.

My second question is why does not one single stakeholder organisation—I apologise for that phrase, but I cannot find a better one—agree with the noble Baroness and her Government? Why does she think that Sir Bob Hepple has given the advice that he has about Section 3? Has she had discussions in the past month with the bodies which care about this matter? If so, what is the outcome of those discussions? Given that the Government are in absolutely no doubt that all these organisations are concerned about this and do not want this change to happen, have the Government had discussions with them? Have any discussions influenced their position? I hope that their position will be that they will accept this amendment. Certainly, from these Benches, we are adamantly opposed to the deletion of Section 3. If the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell, decides to test the opinion of the House, we will be with her.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, this has been an important debate and I am grateful to all noble Lords who have contributed. We have covered an important matter about which we all feel strongly. We all want a society based on equality of opportunity which respects human rights. I pay tribute, as I did in Committee, to all noble Lords who have worked hard in this arena over many years. I especially pay tribute to the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell, not just for everything that she has done but for the very open and straightforward manner in which she and I have discussed her amendments at various stages of the passage of this Bill. I really am grateful to her for that.

A lot has been achieved since we last debated this issue. We have appointed new commissioners and the commission’s budget has been announced. I will come back to these points later today when we debate the accountability of the commission in the final group of amendments. First, I shall be absolutely clear about what this Government seek to achieve via this Bill. We want a strong and independent Equality and Human Rights Commission which promotes and protects equality and human rights. We want it to be recognised and respected as the national expert in these areas as well as for being a strategic enforcer of equality law.

Under the leadership of the noble Baroness, Lady O’Neill, who is respected and renowned the world over for her evidence-based approach, we are confident that the commission’s work will be respected, but in order for her, her board and its successors to determine their priorities and agree a coherent strategy, we must first be clear on the purpose of the commission.

The commission has done some good work since it was established in 2007—most recently, the inquiry into the home care of elderly people and the disability harassment inquiry, among other things, which were referred to by the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins. Let me be clear: removing the general duty would not prevent this kind of work taking place in the future. I will explain in a moment why that is the case. However, we also have to acknowledge that the commission has not been universally acclaimed as a national institution. Indeed, it has been criticised for the way that it has been run. Poor financial management resulting in qualified accounts was the most serious evidence of its failures.

In the past couple of years things have started to improve. Indeed, the past two sets of accounts have been clean and substantial savings have been made. I pay tribute to all those who played their part in that, which includes several Members of this House. However, when an organisation seriously underperforms, it would be negligent not to understand what caused those problems and take steps to put things right. As most successful leaders, whether they are in business or politics, will testify, when things go wrong in an organisation it is often because the organisation lacks clarity of purpose. Indeed, they will argue that for any organisation to be successful, it needs clarity of purpose.

The general duty is not a core purpose. It is a statement with which we all agree, but it is not a purpose. As I said in Committee, that statement for the general duty includes the requirement that:

“We must encourage and support the development of a society in which: People's ability to achieve their potential is not limited by prejudice or discrimination. There is respect for and protection of each individual's human rights”,

and goes on. If the statement were enshrined exclusively in statute and described as the commission’s general duty, that would imply that the commission is responsible for encouraging and supporting the development of such a society on its own.

I know that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, questioned my reasoning, but I stand by it. The Government’s argument remains that several institutions—Parliament, the Government, other public sector organisations, business and everyone—are collectively responsible for achieving the kind of society that that general duty sets out. Having such a wide-ranging and unrealistic general duty would make it harder than it should be for the commission to prioritise its work. That would be the case for any organisation given that general duty.

The noble Baroness, Lady O’Neill of Bengarve, made clear in her contribution the commission’s view of what the Government are proposing, and I am grateful to her for that. She said that while the commission lacks enthusiasm in the language that uses for the Government’s proposals to remove the general duty, it none the less acknowledges that it would not impact significantly on its work. She also agreed that that general duty is aspirational, the nature of the Equality Human Rights Commission is for it to be aspirational and that that is not required to be set out in statute.

The noble Baroness, Lady Campbell, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, and other noble Lords referred to the memo from Sir Bob Hepple and questioned the unifying link that Section 3 provides between equality and human rights. The commission can perform its functions under its duties in respect of equality under Section 8 and of human rights under Section 9, so that any unifying link between these two concepts provided by the duty is not essential. As the commission made clear in the briefing distributed at the end of last week, it sees the general duty as symbolic rather than practical.

The Government are clear that the commission’s core purpose is to promote equality and to protect human rights. These duties are set out in Sections 8 and 9 of the 2006 Act. They are supported by a suite of enforcement powers in that Act, such as conducting inquiries and investigations, issuing compliance notices or entering into agreements with organisations and instigating or intervening in judicial reviews or other legal proceedings.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Sheikh]

My Lords, I am grateful for the opportunity to contribute to the debate and thankful to the Government for introducing this Bill, which will support British businesses in cutting unnecessary costs and red tape, boost consumer confidence and help to create more jobs.

I wanted to speak briefly on the amendment of the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries, relating to the inclusion of caste when considering cases of discrimination. This is not a new debate; indeed, when the Equality Act was published in 2010, a specific provision was included to allow for caste to be added as an aspect of race at a later date. Later that year, the National Institute of Economic and Social Research undertook an extensive government-commissioned study into the prevalence and severity of caste discrimination in the United Kingdom and concluded that it does in fact occur in many of the areas covered by the Equality Act, such as education and the workplace. That led me to conclude that government action is indeed required as a matter of some urgency.

As a man with Indian ancestry, I am all too aware of the deep-rooted prejudice and unfair treatment that results from allowing the caste-based system to persevere. The Minister may be aware of the religious concept of untouchability, whereby certain individuals are declared untouchables due to their perceived association with impurity and pollution. As a result, they are ostracised and isolated from the rest of society in order to protect and preserve the quality of the majority.

In particular, across much of south Asia, the Dalit community has suffered greatly from this deep, ingrained form of discrimination. Dalits are a community considered so lowly in the social hierarchy that in some circles they are in fact excluded from the caste system altogether and completely segregated by social customs.

Historically, in countries such as India, Dalits have also been physically separated from the rest of society, housed outside the main villages and entitled to perform only the most menial of jobs. This horrendous social mentality still prevails in some rural communities, although thankfully it is becoming less common. Today, the Indian constitution outlaws discrimination based on caste and provides for the reservation of seats in the House of the People and the states’ legislative assemblies for those who have been historically disadvantaged due to the caste system. There are also programmes to promote and provide educational and employment opportunities for those such as Dalits. Many people in this country will be completely unaware of the existence of such a caste system and its history in suppressing minorities here. This is why it is particularly important that we acknowledge the potential extent of the problem in the United Kingdom.

I was instinctively drawn to support this amendment. Following further reading and a highly reassuring discussion with the Minister this morning, I am now very much aware of how seriously the Government are taking this matter. They have been very clear that nobody should suffer prejudice because of their caste, and as such have developed the Talk for a Change programme to work with the communities affected by this discrimination. As with so many of the most deep-rooted cultural ills, education and awareness is the key to prevention and this is exactly the approach this programme will take. I also appreciate that there will be a political focus on the Hindu and Sikh communities where the problem is most prevalent. Such assertive action is extremely welcome and is necessary both in the name of protecting vulnerable individuals and in maintaining our reputation as a country that embraces progressive and tolerant attitudes.

The Government have also been clear that they have no plans to remove the provision contained within the Equality Act which allows for caste to be included at a later date. This again reassures me that they are maintaining a flexible approach to tackling this problem and were we to enforce the type of legislation called for in this amendment we would simply be pushing against an open door.

We must realise that, as a nation which has so proudly and successfully championed the fusion of a diverse range of minority communities with modern-day Britain, we have inevitable responsibilities. These responsibilities should be seen as challenges to relish; ways in which we can assist our new communities and help them to integrate better into what many see as the mainstream of British life.

Our Prime Minister has made the point that Britain is open for business, and I believe that furthering our commitment to fairness and equality in our boardrooms, offices and factories can only serve to make us an even more attractive nation to do business with. I believe that the Government share this sentiment and I look forward to following the progress of the Talk for a Change programme.

If a Division is called, I shall certainly vote not-content.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have contributed to this very important debate. Let me start by being absolutely clear: the Government recognise that there is some evidence of caste prejudice and discrimination taking place in the United Kingdom. Such behaviour is wrong; no one should suffer prejudice or discrimination, whether because of caste or any personal characteristic, and it should not be condoned whether or not it is prohibited by legislation.

Before I go any further, I should like to pay tribute to the work of those who have campaigned so hard on behalf of victims of caste prejudice and discrimination, particularly the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, and the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries of Pentregarth. I think they underestimate what they have achieved through their efforts over the last few years. Their commitment has already achieved a great deal in highlighting the problem and in ensuring consideration of this issue.

As noble Lords closely involved in this campaign know, the Government were already reviewing the NIESR report that has been referred to before my noble friend Lord Avebury tabled his amendment to this Bill at the end of last year. However, a decision by the Government as to what action they would take had not emerged at that stage. During debate in Committee, I undertook that the Government would reach a decision which would be announced before today’s Report. In the light of the strong arguments in Committee, I also undertook to ask the relevant departmental Minister, my honourable friend Helen Grant, to meet representatives from all the major pro-legislation caste organisations. That meeting took place earlier in February and my noble friends Lord Avebury and Lady Northover and the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, were all able to attend. Though I was not able to be present myself because I was required on other business in this House, I met Helen Grant beforehand to relay personally the details of our previous debate. She has since given me a comprehensive read-out of the discussions.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Deben]

I understand that, but none of those things is fixed in the way in which caste is fixed. Those are things which can be changed—sometimes they are just changed by speaking differently. You cannot change your caste, and that is why it is an exact parallel with race and may indeed be included within race. Surely it is not acceptable to say that there is anything else like caste.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

As I continue laying out the Government’s response, I will answer more directly the points that my noble friend has made. I want to make it plain that there are other forms of prejudice from which people in this country suffer to a great extent for which no clear, direct legislation exists to prevent it happening.

The noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries of Pentregarth, provided some rather shocking evidence and stories of discrimination outside the UK, as did other noble Lords. The Government have to legislate to tackle what happens in this country; that is what we—what all Governments—must ensure that we do. The noble Lord, Lord Alton, and the noble Baroness, Lady Flather, talked about the huge number of crimes committed against Dalits in India. We have existing criminal law here in Great Britain for dealing with those kinds of assaults and other crimes if they take place in this country.

At this point, let me make it clear that we remain willing to consider whether there may be a case for legislating specifically in regard to caste discrimination, and hence our willingness to meet representatives of the key groups. I will return in a moment to the circumstances that would lead us to such a decision, and why we remain unconvinced that legislation is the best answer. It is clear from the NIESR report, which is the most robust study available so far, that the majority of incidents of caste-related prejudice or abuse would not be covered by equality legislation. Our assessment is that the great majority of cases in the report are either in areas outside the legislation—such as in relation to volunteering, which is not covered by discrimination law—or would already be subject to redress through a range of measures from claims for constructive dismissal to criminal prosecution. That said, we are clear that no one should suffer prejudice because of caste. Such prejudice should not be condoned and it should never be ignored, and that is why I am pleased that the Government have announced that they are taking clear action to tackle caste prejudice and discrimination through an education initiative. I thank my noble friend Lord Sheikh for his support for this initiative, and I must say that I was rather surprised that the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries, dismissed it as being patronising and interfering. Even if a new law on caste discrimination was to be introduced, without education it would not address the underlying causes.

[Lord Avebury]

Did my noble friend note the quotation I gave from the NIESR report which talked about the educational effect of legislation? The fact is that because employers would have to discharge their responsibilities, they would educate their workforces and thus the whole of society.

[Baroness Flather]

Who is going to educate whom? We have put down so many things under education that I should think they could fill a whole blackboard. Without legislation, I do not understand who will give this education and who will be educated.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I hope that, as I continue my remarks, I will be able to answer the points made by my noble friend and the noble Baroness. My noble friend Lord Avebury talked about business only needing to familiarise itself with caste legislation when a case of discrimination occurs. I would argue that that is not the case. Employers and service providers have to familiarise themselves with the law in order to avoid being faced with claims for discrimination. The noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries, asked about the cost of the education initiative. I can inform him that the estimated cost is around £20,000. I should also say that I thought that the contribution made by the noble Lord, Lord Singh, on the history behind caste was very illustrative because it demonstrated the point I have just made in response to my noble friend Lord Avebury about the need, if we were to introduce a law, to educate business in just how complex an issue this is and therefore how much education will be necessary.

The joint initiative between the Department for Communities and Local Government and the Government Equalities Office has already appointed a body called Talk for a Change to take this work forward in partnership with any organisation that wishes to become involved in finding practical, community-based solutions to the problems and harm that caste-based prejudice can cause. Over the next few months, the programme will see Talk for a Change running a series of regional workshops that will engage with individuals and organisations from local communities to explore the nature and sensitivities of the caste system and the emotional harm that caste prejudice and discrimination can cause. In response to a point made by my noble friend Lord Deben, I say that the workshops will also be used to raise awareness within those communities of the channels of redress that are already open to those who feel themselves to have been victims of caste prejudice, discrimination or harassment. The outcomes from these events will be used to provide material that can be made available to local authorities, schools, colleges, employers, the police and any others who may come into contact with caste-related issues. The details of how those who wish to participate in this project can get involved will be available shortly on the Talk for a Change website, and we will also ensure that these projects are widely advertised.

We believe that this education programme, which will explore all the issues, not just those covered by discrimination legislation, is an appropriate and targeted way of dealing with incidents related to caste that are not already susceptible to the criminal law or other remedies such as employment law or informal grievance procedures. However, that is not all we are doing. As has already been referred to, the Equality and Human Rights Commission was mentioned several times during our debate in Committee as an important player in this issue. We have been in discussions with the commission about caste discrimination, and both the Government Equalities Office and the commission have agreed that it would be useful to examine the evidence from existing studies and the extent to which different approaches might address the problem. This work will not duplicate the previous work undertaken in the area, such as the NIESR report.

In response to the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries, and my noble friend Lord Avebury, who I think used the term Groundhog Day when commenting on this issue, let me make it absolutely clear how this is going to be different. NIESR carried out primary research to determine whether caste prejudice and discrimination exists in Great Britain. That research included discussions with a range of organisations and interviews with individuals who have claimed to be the victims of such behaviour. The commission will use the evidence that is currently available as part of its consideration of the nature of caste prejudice and harassment and the extent to which this problem is likely to be addressed by legislative or other solutions. The commission intends to publish its findings later this year, which we will of course consider carefully. My noble friend Lord Avebury asked whether a budget had been set aside for the commission to look at this issue. The commission has not requested a budget for this work because, as we debated at length in the previous debate, it is an independent body that takes its own decisions about its workload and spending within its own overall budget.

My noble and learned friend Lord Mackay of Clashfern raised an important legal matter, and he was supported in doing so by my noble friend Lord Lester. He said that caste is already potentially a subset of race and that perhaps the current existence of the separate power on caste in the Equality Act 2006 detracts from that. It goes without saying that my noble and learned friend knows far more about the law than I could ever begin to know myself, and whenever he intervenes to make a point, I consider it carefully and with great seriousness. However, we are not aware of any case law directly on this point, although I note that my noble friend Lord Lester seemed to suggest that some exists. What I would like to suggest is that, when the commission undertakes its study, this is an area on which it might properly reflect as part of its work. This is precisely the kind of thing that the commission should consider in the work that it is about to do.

[Lord Lester of Herne Hill]

Is the Minister aware that the UN Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination has called on the United Kingdom to legislate in this area?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My noble friend is familiar with the detail in this area. If that is so, I am not in a position to suggest that he is wrong. However, we do not believe that it is necessary to introduce legislation at this time.

The Government are largely in accord with the aims of this amendment. We all want to see an end to caste-based prejudice and discrimination. We are not closing the door to legislation. We have no plans to remove the power from the Act, and we will leave it there in case new evidence emerges which makes it clear that legislation would help to achieve the aim that we all share. As I have already made clear, we will consider the outcome of the commission’s study when it reports later this year.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Thornton]

My Lords, I was very happy to put my name to this amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Lester. He spoke with great passion and authority about this issue at Second Reading and has done so again to explain why this amendment is so important. In terms of practical equalities on an everyday basis, this is probably the most important amendment we are going to discuss today because it is about how ordinary people can start to challenge whether they have been discriminated against.

As the noble Lord, Lord Lester, and my noble friend Lady Turner have just said, there is no evidence that this procedure is being used as a fishing exercise. Case law makes clear that businesses and other respondents are not required to answer questions which are disproportionate and that a poor response would not automatically lead to a finding of discrimination. Indeed, the Government’s impact assessment fails to provide any empirical support for removing this so-called regulatory burden on businesses. The questionnaire procedure facilitates access to justice. It helps both parties to assess where a claim lies and enables them to reach an early settlement where appropriate. It is therefore crucial that the Government should not repeal Section 138 of the Equality Act 2010.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords for their contributions today on this matter. I start by repeating what I said in Committee on this measure: our proposal does not impact on the substantive rights of those who believe that they have encountered discrimination. It does not deny people access to justice or reduce the remedies available to those who have experienced discrimination. It simply replaces an out-of-date system with a simpler and fairer approach for all. Let me be clear: we want a process that commands confidence from all the parties likely to be involved in discrimination cases.

Before I go any further, I will respond to a point made by the noble Lord, Lord Ouseley, about legal aid. He suggested that it was being denied, making it harder for people to bring claims. Legal aid continues to be available in discrimination cases.

Our concerns are with the nature of the statutory mechanism around Section 138 of the Act, and the particular combination of features—an unlimited scope for request of detail concerning a possible complaint, a short deadline for response and the tribunal’s power to draw pejorative inference from the response or lack of it—which employers and businesses feel really back them into a corner. This process started off, as my noble friend Lord Lester said, over 40 years ago with the intention of a straightforward question and answer procedure. In 1975, the then Minister described it as a way of enabling the complainant to obtain simple, basic information on which to decide whether to start a case. Noble Lords might compare that sentiment to actual, although, of course, anonymised, examples of the sort of questions that are nowadays put to employers. Here are a couple: “Please specify the number of employees who have requested, applied for or been invited to transfer to another department within the 18 month calendar period prior to” whatever date; “Please explain how many of those transferred had raised grievances whether formal or informal, prior to their transfer.”

At times the number of supplementary questions runs to 40, 50 or even 100, all of which employers, including small employers, often feel required to answer within eight weeks or face a tribunal case where they are already handicapped by the inferences which the tribunal may draw under the statute. It is, therefore, not surprising that many businesses feel that the balance has shifted too far in favour of the claimant. The repeal that we propose will address this and, together with the non-statutory arrangements that we are working on, will make for a fairer and simpler process, as I said before, for all involved.

My noble friend Lord Lester said that no court, tribunal or legal practitioner had ever suggested that the procedure is abused. I am happy to write to my noble friend about this because we believe some legal practitioners would certainly disagree with his statement that no abuse occurs. I hope he will not mind if I follow up on that in writing rather than trying to respond today on the Floor of the House.

When we debated this in Committee, some noble Lords doubted my contention that,

“not one single employer or business organisation told us that they saw value in the questionnaires”.—[Official Report, 14/1/13; col. GC 136.]

Indeed, that has been challenged again today by my noble friend Lord Lester and the noble Baronesses, Lady Turner of Camden and Lady Thornton. I find that a bit surprising because I thought that the letter I sent to the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, on 8 February provided the evidence for that statement. Indeed, I noted in that letter the alienation of employers and other companies from the view expressed frequently in debates on this clause that the obtaining information process benefits business as well as individuals by weeding out unmeritorious claims. In support of this, I refer to one particular response which sums up the employer view: “The information we send in response is rarely if ever used subsequently in the case, but does require us to undertake a considerable amount of work obtaining and collating the requested information.” It is a matter of concern that what is seen in Parliament as a major benefit of the procedure—its usefulness, on occasion, to both parties as a prevention mechanism—is in reality simply not shared, or even recognised, by respondents to the questionnaires.

Despite this, I emphasise that we are not trying to do away with the concept of pre-claim disclosure. We do indeed note the claim of those arguing in favour of retaining these provisions that pre-claim disclosure can on occasion be helpful to all concerned. That brings me to what we propose to put in place of Section 138 of the Equality Act. I underline what I said in Committee about the value we see in encouraging a pre-claim dialogue and exchange of information. Our early conciliation provisions in the Bill are intended to achieve just that and will provide the right sort of platform to help establish the basic facts to determine if discrimination has occurred. However, even if parties do not in the end agree to conciliation taking place, a conversation with ACAS will give them a better understanding—

[Lord Lester of Herne Hill]

I would like clarification, although I am listening very carefully. Is it contemplated that the conciliation procedure will enable a claimant to do something like serve such a questionnaire in order to try to understand whether they have a good case or not, or is this procedure to be abolished if the Government have their way?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

To be absolutely clear, this is not about abolishing the opportunity for anybody to submit questions to an employer to gather information. All we are removing is the statutory requirement for that employer to have to respond to those questions within a time limit, and, if they were not to do so, providing for their non-response to be considered by the tribunal service.

I will return to what I was saying. If parties do not in the end agree to conciliation taking place, a conversation with ACAS will give them a better understanding of the issue and of the tribunal process. The individual will then still be able to seek information from the employer or service provider, before making any decision on whether to take their claim to the tribunal. Individuals will still be free to seek information from an employer or service provider about alleged discriminatory conduct without the statutory process. Information can be sought informally, in writing or orally.

To help this process, this informal approach will be set out in ACAS-approved guidance. This is being developed with the input of interested parties, including the Equality and Diversity Forum, the Equality and Human Rights Commission, and the CBI. Since we last debated this issue, ACAS has developed draft guidance for consideration by the group of interested parties. The guidance will include advice on how to seek pre-claim information in the employment as well as the goods and services context.

My noble friend Lord Lester referred to the fact that without statutory procedure employers will not help claimants by providing information. My response is that we are removing that statutory requirement for them to respond. When that ceases to exist, courts and tribunals may still take into account a refusal to answer questions or their provision of answers that look evasive when deciding whether a case of discrimination has been made out. The fact that there is no statutory process does not remove the risk to an employer or service provider of deciding not to respond to a claimant; it only removes the unnecessary and prescriptive process around that.

In conclusion I remind noble Lords of what I said in Committee, that we are now in a different climate to 40 years ago when this legislation was introduced. Businesses are more concerned with upholding their reputations and the damage reputational risk may have on their position in their market. There is a greater trend towards transparency around information held by business. Clearly that is progress and something that we support.

I hope that noble Lords can agree that the statutory process is no longer the right approach and that our alternative arrangements will continue to enable the kind of pre-claim dialogue that business and the Government are fully committed to supporting, with a lighter-touch process which benefits all equally. I hope that in responding I have given my noble friend at least some assurance that might lead him to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Lester of Herne Hill]

I am grateful to the Minister and to others who have taken part in the debate. I wish that there had been some assurance that I could rely upon, because I very much hoped that it would not be necessary to test the opinion of the House. However, as the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, said, this is probably—in fact it is—the most important amendment that the House is considering, because it seeks to help the vulnerable, who are more than half the population. If you add together women, elderly people, the disabled, black people, brown people, religious minorities, and the gay and lesbian community, it comes to more than half the population. Therefore, to take away a simple procedure that has worked well in the estimation of all the judges and experts whom I have ever known—and I can claim a bit of expertise, since I have been arguing cases in this area for about 30 years, God help me, and perhaps I have a little more practical experience than some others who are advising the Government—will make it very hard to bring a discrimination claim.

It is all very well to say, “Oh well, you don’t need the statutory thing—you can just go and write a letter”. To write a letter that will lead to any kind of result probably means going to a solicitor or a trade union representative, if you are lucky enough to have one in the real world. In the real world, without this procedure, and without legal aid for employment tribunals, the applicant will bring cases that are misconceived, the conciliation process will not work well because of a lack of information, and the whole situation will be worse for victims. I do not know whether the Conservative part of the coalition wishes to go into the next election with credit for having dismantled one piece of valuable assistance to claimants. If it does, so be it. That, however, would be foolish. I speak only for the Liberal Democrats, but I do not believe that the Conservative part of the Government wishes to undo the valuable work done by previous Conservative Governments over the past 30 or 40 years in supporting this measure and others like it.

We put this on the statute book only two years ago in the 2010 Act, with all-party support. What has changed since then? The Red Tape Challenge. The original notion of that was to dismantle the whole of the equality legislation, and this is one part that has survived. It is foolish of the Government to continue to do this, and therefore I must reluctantly beg leave to test the opinion of the House.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Prosser]

My Lords, I support this amendment. I was reminded by the noble Lord, Lord Deben, of something that happened a good many years ago when I was the national women’s secretary of the Transport and General Workers’ Union. I was on a mission to include within the rulebook of the union requirements for each of our administrative areas to provide positive action programmes for women, and for sanctions to be introduced into the rulebook against those senior officials of the union who might be found guilty of harassment or bad behaviour towards women. “Attacked” is not the right word, but the response of more senior people in the union than me—men—verged on that. They said to me: “We don’t need a change in the rulebook, what we need is a change of culture”. I said: “Of course we do, I absolutely agree that we need a change of culture, but while we are working on the change of culture we will have a change in the rulebook so that outwith those rules you will not operate”.

We all know that large bureaucracies find it terribly difficult to shift. The idea that organisations out there—public sector bodies, services, et cetera—are going to be able to change their culture, and be willing or capable of doing that in any speedy fashion without some framework within which we require them to operate, seems to me to be cloud-cuckoo-land. I do not believe that if we remove the pressure for equality impact assessments to be the final step in delivering public sector equality duties we will see any change at all going on out there. I support this amendment and I hope that others will also do so.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords and to the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, and my noble friend Lady Hussein-Ece. I will explain my views on their amendment. I am grateful to them because it provides me with an opportunity to respond to some points which are important in this wider debate about equality impact assessments and the public sector equality duty.

Before I get into that, let me say from the start that this Government have a strong commitment to establishing a strong, modern, fair Britain which is built on two key principles: equal treatment and equal opportunity for all. The equality duty was designed to ensure that the needs of people are taken into account when public bodies develop, change, implement or review a new policy or service.

The amendment was discussed in Committee and, as has been explained by the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, seeks to impose a number of processes on public bodies in addition to the central requirement to have due regard to the three main aims of the equality duty when exercising their functions. Some of the requirements it seeks to impose are already an integral part of the process of complying with the public sector equality duty. Having due regard to the equality duty when exercising their public functions is the legal duty on all public bodies. Let me be clear; that has not changed, nor has the requirement to be able to demonstrate that it has happened. For example, the proposal for public bodies to assess and monitor the likely impact of their proposed and actual policies is already required, while the requirement to publish the results of such assessments is caught by the requirement in the specific duties to publish information to demonstrate compliance with the duty. These requirements include considering the need to eliminate unlawful discrimination, advance equality of opportunity, and foster good relations between people with different characteristics. Public bodies are also required to publish information at least annually to show how they have done this, and to set at least every four years equality objectives that will promote these aims. There is therefore already a thorough requirement on public bodies to have due regard to the public sector equality duty.

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[Baroness O'Neill of Bengarve]

I have observer status; I am not a member of the working party.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I am grateful to the noble Baroness for her clarification, and I am sorry if I misrepresented her position on the steering group.

The noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, and my noble friend Lady Hussein-Ece referred to the membership of the steering group. I say clearly that its members have been selected because of their experience and knowledge around these issues, and it is not intended at all to be a politically representative body. The steering group represents the main delivery public sectors of policing, education, health, local and central government. It can use their expertise to shape the scope of the evidence-gathering and develop the final recommendations. As the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, said, we have extended the timetable to June from the previous announced date of the end of April at the request of the chair and the steering group to help to ensure that the review and its recommendations are robust.

The evidence-gathering for the review began in January and includes a series of round tables, involving a wide variety of experts, to gather evidence on how the duty is operating. The first round table involved voluntary and community sector organisations such as the Equality and Diversity Forum, the Stephen Lawrence Trust and Age UK. The second involved lawyers from across the public sector. A further six round tables are planned, including with inspectorates, private sector contractors and senior decision-makers. The work will include site visits to public bodies, for example to a police force or a school, to examine the experiences of different individuals within an organisation. The work will also include the commissioning of qualitative research, which will be conducted independently—as is always the case in these matters—through a series of in-depth interviews with public bodies. We will be inviting evidence from organisations and individuals about the operation of the duty, which should provide insight about public bodies’ experiences of working with the duty. We are also analysing written evidence in the form of existing literature, case law and international comparisons. We are therefore approaching this review with an open mind and gathering evidence from numerous sources to get a comprehensive picture of how the duty operates in practice.

The noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, asked how we would respond once the work is complete and the steering group produces its report. As I am sure she would expect me to say, it is far too early for me to speculate on how we will respond. However, given that we have set up the review and given it the remit to roam and consult as widely as it is doing, we will clearly take the report seriously and are looking forward to receiving it.

The equality duty and supporting regulations provide sufficient safeguards for holding public bodies to account, and introducing a further legal requirement for an equality impact assessment will not add anything material. Furthermore, the timing is not right when we are taking stock of how the current legislation is operating in practice. As I have said before and to make absolutely clear, this is a review of how that responsibility is operating, not whether public bodies should have due regard for equality. I hope that I have been able to give the noble Baroness more information about the review, and I am grateful for that opportunity.

[Baroness Thornton]

My Lords, I thank my noble friends Lord Harrison and Lady Prosser, and the noble Baroness, Lady Hussein-Ece, for their comments. I also thank the noble Lord, Lord Deben, who, as ever, made pertinent comments.

The response from the Minister was actually very helpful. We do not agree and I would obviously much prefer that the equality impact assessments were mandatory. There is no question that that would work better. However, while the Minister may not have given much comfort to her noble friend Lord Deben in what she said about the way she sees the public sector equality duty and impact assessments working, I found the Minister’s response useful and helpful, and I will read her comments in greater detail.

As to the public sector equality duty review, it was useful and reassuring to know that the review is ranging far and wide and taking evidence from a range of bodies. The Government would have been wise to make the review more balanced, given that politicians from different councils are taking part. It would have been useful to have had a Labour person on the steering group, but that does not mean that the outcome will not be useful. I am also reassured that the review is taking time to get this right.

Given the information that the noble Baroness has provided to the House, I am happy, at this stage, to beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Thornton]

My Lords, I agree completely with the noble Baroness, Lady Hussein-Ece. I have written down “micromanagement by the Government Equalities Office is a bit of a red tape challenge that the Government could probably do well to look at”, so our thoughts were heading in the same direction. I see this group of amendments as continuing the positive discussion that we had in Grand Committee, where the Minister started to explain where the Government were going and what the direction of travel was. I see this group of amendments as part of that process and discussion, and I congratulate my noble friend Lady Prosser on her introduction.

What we are essentially addressing here is how the EHRC can deliver its statutory responsibility to assess how the Government comply with their domestic and international equality and human rights obligations, how it can best do that and how it can be independent in doing so. It seems to us that parliamentary accountability would provide the commission with that appropriate independence from Government to fulfil its role impartially. I hope that the Minister will accept something that I said in Grand Committee: this is not a means of stopping the Government setting the overall policy direction on equality matters. Everybody accepts that that is the Government’s job. However, it means that our Commission for Equality and Human Rights, apart from anything else, has the necessary independence to from time to time be critical of the Government and hold them properly to account.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, as I said in response to the first debate this afternoon, the Government want a strong, independent Equality and Human Rights Commission that promotes and protects equality and human rights. We want it to be recognised and respected as the national expert in these areas as well as a strategic enforcer of the law. Clearly, we also value its “A” status and want it to retain it. We are committed to strengthening its accountability to Parliament and, in responding to this debate, I hope I can demonstrate what progress we are making.

I start with the appointments. As already acknowledged by the noble Baroness, Lady Prosser, and others who have contributed to the debate, the appointment of the new chair of the commission, the noble Baroness, Lady O’Neill, was for the first time subject to pre-appointment scrutiny by the Joint Committee on Human Rights. That is a move that the Government welcome. In January, we appointed six new commissioners and, with the appointment of the new chair, we believe that the new board marks the start of a new era for the commission steering it in a new strategic direction. We want to see the commission go from strength to strength. We are open to discussing with the Joint Committee on Human Rights how it can be involved in future appointments.

Since the debate in Committee, the Joint Committee on Human Rights has been in touch with my honourable friend the Minister for Women and Equalities, Helen Grant, who is the Minister responsible for the commission. The JCHR has set out its plans to work with the commission to strengthen the commission’s accountability to, and co-operation with, Parliament and, in particular, with the JCHR itself. I am aware that the JCHR seeks to work with the EHRC to develop a protocol of collaborative working strategies to improve accountability. I certainly echo the sentiment expressed in my honourable friend Helen Grant’s reply to the letter from the chair of the committee. We welcome the non-legislative approach taken by the JCHR, and following this exchange of correspondence, which was circulated to noble Lords before today’s debate, I understand that at the request of the chair of the Joint Committee on Human Rights a meeting will take place soon. To reiterate: there is ongoing dialogue between the commission and the JCHR to the effect that the noble Baroness, Lady Prosser, has argued for in her amendment.

I reassure the House that the commission’s annual report and accounts are already laid before Parliament, as well as its strategic plan and its reports on progress. With respect to the commission’s budget, since Committee, and as I referred to earlier today, we have published the outcome of the comprehensive budget review. This review, conducted in partnership with the commission, sets out the agreed level of funding adequate for the commission to fulfil its functions. As the noble Baroness, Lady O’Neill, said, the review agrees a budget that will allow the commission to,

“continue as an effective organisation in all our roles”.

Furthermore, as my noble friend Lord Lester mentioned in Committee, the commission’s founding legislation includes an obligation for Ministers to make sure that it receives reasonably sufficient funding to fulfil its functions. That will continue. As such, we do not believe that it is necessary for Parliament to set directly the commission’s budget.

The vast majority of public bodies are set up in a similar way to the Equality and Human Rights Commission, and that is because it is not practical as a general rule for Parliament to provide the level of day-to-day support often required. To agree a budget with an organisation requires quite a lot of ongoing detailed discussion to reach an agreed amount. That is not something which usually lends itself to the work of a Select Committee. My noble friend Lord Deben, who has a good deal of experience with this, made that argument during Committee. It is worth pointing out that, unlike most other such bodies, there is no power for Ministers to compel the commission to do anything, so in terms of the process by which it agrees its budget, it does not set a budget to ensure it fulfils something that it does not want to do.

Moving on to the framework document, officials are working with the commission to put in place a new, improved framework by the end of this month. While I cannot go into the detail as this work is ongoing, I can assure noble Lords that officials are working to ensure the commission’s independence is not compromised by the need for it to be accountable. The noble Baroness, Lady Prosser, and others referred to the ICC’s view of the commission’s accountability to Parliament. It is quite right that in 2010 the ICC, as part of its special review, suggested that it might be sensible for the Government to consider increasing the level of the commission’s accountability to Parliament. Our view is that this is being achieved through the steps we are taking, some of which I have just outlined. I should also make clear that the commission was accredited as an “A”-rated institution without any change in its reporting arrangements. My point is that its “A” status was conferred on it as it is currently constituted, so it already exists in the way that it is constructed. I am aware that the commission will be considered at the next meeting of the ICC’s sub-committee on accreditation in May. As I stated in Committee, we have a constructive dialogue with the chair of the ICC and this will continue.

Social Security Benefits Up-rating Order 2013

Baroness Stowell of Beeston Excerpts

Thursday 28th February 2013 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

That the Grand Committee do report to the House that it has considered the Social Security Benefits Up-rating Order 2013.

Relevant document: 18th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments.

Motion agreed.

National Employment Savings Trust (Amendment) Order 2013

Baroness Stowell of Beeston Excerpts

Thursday 28th February 2013 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

That the Grand Committee do report to the House that it has considered the National Employment Savings Trust (Amendment) Order 2013.

Relevant document: 17th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, I am pleased to introduce this instrument, which was laid before the House on 15 January. I am satisfied that it is compatible with the European Convention on Human Rights.

As noble Lords know, NEST was established to support automatic enrolment. It is a trust-based, occupational pension scheme, and the NEST order and non-statutory rules act in the same way as a trust instrument. The NEST order was set in March 2010 and NEST has been operational since July 2011. Like any other pension scheme, occasionally NEST’s operating framework will need adjusting. Since 2010, there have been a number of changes to automatic enrolment legislation which impact on the order. In addition, live running of NEST has highlighted that some provisions in the order are unclear or do not operate as intended. The changes in this order were requested by the NEST trustee. They will allow NEST to focus on its key remit: to support automatic enrolment and provide clarity to employers and members who use it.

I shall now summarise the changes. To give smaller employers more time to adjust, we have extended the staging period for implementing automatic enrolment. We are therefore extending the period during which NEST has discretion to defer admitting self-enrolling members—for example, the self-employed—until 1 March 2018. This will enable NEST to focus on helping employers to meet their automatic enrolment duty.

We have removed the duty for employers to automatically enrol jobholders who are also qualifying persons as defined by the Occupational Pension Schemes (Cross-border Activities) Regulations 2005. However, NEST is not able to decline contributions from a member who, because of a change in circumstances, later becomes a qualifying person. It could be costly to accept contributions from a qualifying person. This would require NEST to ensure that it met the pension regulations of another EEA state. It is important that NEST remains a low-cost scheme for its target market, so this order allows NEST to decide whether to continue to accept contributions in respect of members who become qualifying persons or qualifying self-employed persons.

In practice, employers may want to cease participating in NEST, for example, when an employer changes pension provider. This order allows employers to terminate their participation in NEST and includes a consequential amendment to the definition of participating employer. Members admitted through employers are not required to sign terms and conditions. NEST is obliged to admit self-employed individuals to membership, but the order requires them to sign terms and conditions. We are therefore removing this requirement to bring the admittance process into line with other members.

The current description in the order of who can contribute to a member’s account is unclear. We are making an adjustment to that description to ensure contributions from third parties—for example, a member’s relative—will be accepted. We do not want to place unnecessary burdens on employers to process refunds of contributions not made through payroll, so this order allows the trustee to refund third parties or members directly.

Regarding minimum contributions, all contributions made by an employer count towards the annual contribution limit. Where a member of NEST has multiple jobs, NEST must accept minimum contributions from each employer. The quality requirement in Section 20 of the Pensions Act 2008 sets minimum contributions, which are currently 8% of earnings between roughly £5,500 and £42,500. Regulations now also allow for an alternative quality requirement, known as certification. The minimum contribution under the alternative requirement is one of 9% of basic pay, 8% of basic pay where basic pay is at least 85% of total earnings taken in aggregate, or 7% of total earnings. This order makes it clear that minimum contributions capture both the Section 20 and alternative quality requirements.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for introducing this order and I say upfront that we will be supporting it. Perhaps I may revert to an item touched upon by the noble Lord, Lord German, which I was going to raise in our previous debate concerning people’s expectations of pensions, the importance of auto-enrolment and certainly the importance of NEST as a key component of that. When the Turner commission looked at the prospect of auto-enrolment and how employer pensions were to be organised in future, I think that the criteria around contribution levels and the band of earnings to which they applied were struck so that over a working lifetime the required level of replacement earnings would be produced. I am bound to say that with what has happened to the band of earnings, contribution levels have not shifted. I have not seen an update of that calculation and I do not know whether there is one—I think that it is an adjunct to this order—but if there is, it would be interesting to see it.

I have one or two questions in respect of some of the detail. We understand why the discretionary period to allow self-enrolling members to be accommodated is necessary, but can the Minister update us on the current elongated process for enrolment? I do not have that fully in my mind. What is the position of new self-enrolling members at the end of that period? Do they have an unfettered right to enrol? Perhaps we can use this occasion, given that NEST has been up and running for a little while now, although with regard to auto-enrolment larger employers are involved first, to find out whether we have any early numbers for the employers and employees who are enrolled.

We support the lifting of the obligation dealing with cross-border obligations and the other essentially technical amendments. I have a small point on terms and conditions. The Minister said that the proposed change would mean that self-enrolment individuals, as others, do not have to agree to members’ terms and conditions, so what is the purpose of those conditions? What relevance do they have? As for multiple jobs, again we support the change that has been outlined, but what is the position on multiple jobs within the same employer group? There is a maximum of 4,400 but, if that can be exceeded and there can be multiple jobs, are there any constraints if those multiple jobs are within the same group, possibly on a specifically organised basis to circumvent the limit?

With those few small inquiries, I say again that we support the order and are pleased to see that NEST is making progress.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, for his support for this order and, indeed, for the support from my noble friend Lord German. I will try to respond to a few points, but I must say straight from the start that I will probably have to write to the noble Lord on many of his queries. This being quite a technical order with quite a lot of associated technical questions, I am afraid that I know my own limits. This one might take me beyond them, so forgive me from the start if I have to follow up in writing.

The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, asked me for the latest figures about membership of NEST. I have those in front of me. It has been operating since July 2011 and automatic enrolment commenced, as we know, in October last year. We estimate that by the end of staging it will have 2 million to 4 million members and 750,000 participating employers. To the end of January, NEST has more than 200 participating employers, around 45,000 members and a little over £2.2 million in assets under management.

The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, asked, in going back to the last debate that we had on the last order, about the percentage of average earnings that people will accrue as they enter retirement. If there is anything more that I can say on that, I will have to follow up in writing.

The noble Lord, Lord German, asked about next of kin and what is happening there. The requirement for NEST to have to consider next of kin is in line with the Administration of Estates Act 1925. In Scotland, a person is entitled to moveable estate on intestacy. These are very specific; the change allows NEST to determine who to pay survivor benefits to. The rules with a capital “R” are the NEST rules that support the order. On why the trustee’s discretion to pay survivor benefits is applicable to pots only under £5,000, the Administration of Estates Act specifies a limit on the amount of property allowed to be disposed of on death without the necessity for probate or other proof of title. That limit is currently £5,000.

The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, asked about the position of self-enrolling members after the staging period. They will be able to join NEST, as NEST has an obligation to accept them. He also asked about what he described as the elongated staging profile. Currently, large employers have staged and medium employers will become subject to the duty from April 2014. Smaller employers will become subject to the duty from June 2015, and all employers will be in by February 2018.

The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, also asked whether there is an update on the calculation of contribution levels. I think I am about to answer something that I promised to write to him about. In the hope that this answer will mean a shorter letter, if not another letter, the qualifying earnings band is from about £5,500 to about £42,500. A revision order has been laid in draft and will be debated shortly. The noble Lord is correct in saying that the contribution rates remain as in the 2008 Act.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

That is very helpful. I am specifically interested to see, if it is available, what that would mean if one revisited the original Turner commission’s calculation to see what, over a working life with that earnings band and those contributions levels, that would be likely to give in terms of the level of replacement income for somebody about to retire. There was a specific calculation that drove many of these parameters at that time. If there is no update, it is of no great moment, but if there is, I would be interested in seeing it.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

If there is anything available that I am able to provide, I will do so. The noble Lord also asked whether there were any constraints on minimum contributions within the same job. Where there is an upper limit on contributions into a scheme, however expressed, the scheme can still certify as long as the upper limit could not result in contributions that are less than those required by Section 20. I think I am right on that one.

Since I have run out of pieces of paper in order to try to respond to the questions that noble Lords have generously put to me today, I will conclude by saying that I am grateful for those contributions. The changes in this order are consequential, minor and technical. They are deregulatory and will ensure NEST continues to operate efficiently for employers and members who use it. NEST is critical to the success of automatic enrolment. I am grateful to noble Lords for their support today. I commend this order to the Committee.

Motion agreed.

Guaranteed Minimum Pensions Increase Order 2013

Baroness Stowell of Beeston Excerpts

Thursday 28th February 2013 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

That the Grand Committee do report to the House that it has considered the Guaranteed Minimum Pensions Increase Order 2013.

Relevant document: 18th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I shall also speak to the Social Security Benefits Up-rating Order 2013. These orders were laid before the House on 28 January 2013, and I am satisfied that they are compatible with the European Convention on Human Rights.

I will start by touching briefly on the Guaranteed Minimum Pensions Increase Order 2013. This order provides for contracted-out defined benefits schemes to increase their members’ guaranteed minimum pensions that accrued between 1988 and 1997 by 2.2%, in line with inflation as at September 2012.

On the Social Security Benefits Up-rating Order 2013, I shall start with the increase in the basic state pension. One of this Government’s first acts was to restore the earnings link to the basic state pension. Indeed, we went a step further and secured a triple lock for pensioners: a commitment from the Government to increase the basic state pension each year by earnings, prices or 2.5%, whichever is the highest. This year, that third element of the triple lock will have an effect for the first time. The basic state pension will be uprated by 2.5%, a level above both earnings and prices. This means that millions of pensioners will see an above-inflation cash increase of £2.70 a week, taking the new level of the basic state pension to £110.15 a week; and that from April 2013 the basic state pension is forecast to be around 18% of average earnings, a higher share of average earnings than at any time in the past 20 years. I can confirm that additional state pensions will rise in line with inflation at 2.2% in 2013-14, which means that the total state pension increase for someone with a full basic pension and an average additional pension will be around £175 a year.

On pension credit, we have taken an important decision to ensure that the poorest pensioners are able to benefit from the effects of our triple lock. That means that rather than rising in line with earnings at 1.6%, the minimum required by legislation, the standard minimum guarantee credit in pension credit will be increased by 1.9% to ensure that the poorest pensioners benefit from the full £2.70 cash increase in the basic state pension.

Consistent with our approach last year, the resources needed to pay for that above-earnings increase to the standard minimum guarantee have been found by increasing the savings credit threshold, which means that those with higher levels of income will see less of an increase. The decisions that we have taken on pensioners reflect the Government’s belief that even in exceptional economic times it is important to protect those who are less able to increase their spending power.

However, noble Lords will also be aware that this order takes forward a number of decisions that are a lot harder to make. Some tough choices are necessary if we are to restore our public finances. The working-age welfare budget, which accounts for about £1 in every £8 that government spends, cannot be immune from these tough choices. That is why, having regard to the national economic situation, we have decided that the working-age personal allowances in jobseeker’s allowance, income support, housing benefit and employment and support allowance, along with the work-related activity component of employment and support allowance, will be uprated by 1% next year. On the same basis, this 1% uprating will also apply to statutory maternity pay, statutory paternity pay, statutory adoption pay and statutory sick pay. This will save around £200 million in 2013-14, savings that are crucial as we continue to pay down the deficit.

We do not take such decisions lightly. Wherever we have been able to do so, we have sought to protect those who have the greatest difficulty increasing their spending power. The benefits that reflect the additional costs that disabled people face will be uprated in line with inflation. These include disability living allowance, attendance allowance, the disability premiums in working-age benefits, and the support component of the employment and support allowance. This is true of the carer’s allowance and the carer premium as well, both of which will be uprated in line with inflation.

In previous debates this week I have spoken of the need to strike a balance. At a time of great economic difficulty we have had to find savings, but we have sought to balance these with key protections wherever we can. This order is also about balancing our commitment to the here and now with our commitment to the long term. We have a responsibility to the next generation to secure a stable and growing economy, and I do not believe we can achieve that without taking these difficult decisions. Of course, we have a responsibility to those who will be affected by this order today, and we take that responsibility seriously.

It is worth noting that at a time when the nation’s finances remain under real pressure, through this order the Government will be spending an extra £2.8 billion in 2013-14 as part of our drive to ensure that the people who are least able to change their incomes are protected against increases in the cost of living. Of that £2.8 billion, about £2.1 billion is for the state pension, including an above-inflation increase for the basic pension. Nearly £500 million will go to disabled people and their carers, and nearly £300 million will go to people of working age. I believe that this is the right decision for families now and in the long term, and it is on that basis that I commend these orders to the House. I beg to move.

[Lord German]

My Lords, I start by saying that I hope we will not have a reprise of the Second Reading debate of the Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill, because there would be many arguments to espouse.

I add my welcome to the triple-lock pensions increase that has been put into this measure again, and as the Minister has indicated, using 2.5% as the third trigger—the third lock that is being used for the first time—means once again that pensioners are benefiting from an increase that is above inflation.

What is interesting from the information that has been presented to us, and from my noble friend’s introductory comments, is that from April 2013 the basic state pension will be about 18% of average earnings. I have two points to make about that. First, it is a higher percentage than at any time in the past 20 years; and, secondly, it is only 18%. Recent research conducted by the pensions industry indicates that many people approaching retirement say that they need 50% of their average earnings—that is the rough figure they say they need—and they believe that they will get 50%, which in the nature of these things is obviously not true at present. It demonstrates the importance of the new flat-rate pension and that auto-enrolment will be decisive in helping people to meet their own aspirations for retirement. However, in the interim, the pension credit increase in line with the triple lock, as opposed to average earnings, goes a little way to helping Britain’s poorest pensioners.

I turn now to the uprating by 1% of all benefits apart from those protected because of disability or age. I still find that the issue of personal allowances indicates that there is an underpinning rationale, which has not yet been fully demonstrated to me, in having the personal allowance element of the employment support allowance being the same personal allowance that applies for housing benefit and anything else. Can my noble friend the Minister first outline why those personal allowances have to be the same for each allowance? It interests me to know what the rationale is behind that.

--- Later in debate ---

I conclude by reiterating our opposition to these measures that will largely hit poor people in work, disproportionately affect women, push many more children into poverty and fail adequately to protect disabled people. We would be very happy to engage in the sort of process suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, to try to look at these issues for the longer term. I am bound to say that I am not innately attracted by the concept that we have lower levels of benefit because the very poor and disadvantaged can have some supplementary cash to help. In a sense that has been the Government’s approach when they have hacked away at things such as the benefit cap or housing benefit, and with the underoccupation provision and putting aside a bit of money or discretionary housing payments to placate and help a few who were disadvantaged. As a process or a basis for a sensible system of support, that is not the route that we should adopt. There is a danger of straying into the debates that we will return to in our consideration of the Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill, when we will debate the issue of poverty time and again in the upcoming months.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have contributed to today’s debate. I shall get straight into responding to some of the important points raised. I note that there was broad support in the Committee for the first order. I am grateful for that, but there was one small question from the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, which I will dispense with straight away so that I can get rid of one piece of paper that I am grappling with. He asked about the costs of the Guaranteed Minimum Pensions Increase Order 2013 and whether they would fall on the private or public sector. No new costs will be incurred; the costs will be the ones that would usually be incurred as there is no policy change.

I move to some of the points raised in the wider debate. My noble friend Lord German talked at some length about pensions and welcomed the triple lock and its effect this year. He noted that it would now be 18% of average earnings—the highest for 20 years—but that there was evidence to suggest that some people would need more as they neared retirement age, and worryingly thought they would get it. I do not have an immediate response to that, but as he acknowledged, it is one of the reasons why it is important that we are taking steps towards the single tier and auto-enrolment. While these measures will not benefit people who are already at or about to enter pension age, we are seized of this issue and are tackling it as a longer-term issue.

While we are on the pensions issue, the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, referred to the triple lock. He was trying to question whether it was really as beneficial as we believe. I am surprised that he raised that question. It has delivered this year. As I said, it has come into effect for the first time and is above inflation and earnings. As he knows, it has been the policy of successive Governments to use the inflation figures of the previous September to determine the rates for the following year. We have done nothing other than what all Governments do, which is to use the September figures. The September figures were 2.2% inflation, and that is why we introduced the triple lock this year: so pensioners have benefited. That is a good thing and we are pleased about it.

My noble friend Lord German asked a question that he said he had asked earlier this week, when we were debating the Bill, about the consistency of personal allowances across the various benefits. That was echoed by the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie. I can do no more than restate what I said when were debating this then. Personal allowances across income-related benefits for working-age people create the basis for the way our current benefits form a consistent means test across the income-related benefits. If we were to treat different benefits differently in terms of their personal allowances, there would be no clear level of income at which state support via income-related benefits is set and at which access to other help, such as prescription charges or free school meals, would be available across a wide range of services. At a time when we are trying to simplify the welfare system, it would seem strange to introduce an additional layer of complexity for those who are seeking to use the benefit system and for the way we operate it because that would attract additional costs.

My noble friend Lord German also asked about guidance and leaflets that are issued to pensioners. Benefit recipients and pensioners are notified of their new provisional rates following the announcement of those rates by the Minister for Pensions in his Oral Statement. That needs to happen over a number of months because of the volume of notifications and because we need to make an advance claim to basic state pension. It is useful for recipients to have early notification of provisional rates, and it has been the practice for some time.

The noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, raised a few points that were echoed in slightly different terms by the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie. My noble friend Lord Kirkwood said that he came today because he does not like to miss uprating statements and has been to every one for the past however many years. I hope I do not disappoint him. This is my first, so I have a lot of catching up to do. He made the point that these orders are different from anything that he had seen before, but he acknowledged the economic conditions that we are in and that they are an important reason why we are in a different situation from that of previous uprating statements that he has contributed to. He asked what might happen for people who are exceptionally poor or who might over time be affected in ways that at this stage we may not be able to anticipate. The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, echoed some of that in his remarks.

I shall make a number of points on this. It is important for me to restate that some of the measures that we are taking today will have an immediate impact on people in a way that we would not want them to have, but we think that all the measures that we are taking both here in the order today and in the Bill contribute to the longer-term plan and strategy to make sure that we deliver a better economy for everyone.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

What is the Government’s assessment of the effect that the measures in this order, let alone those in the uprating Bill, will have on vulnerable people? Have the Government concluded that it will have no effect or an adverse effect? If it is as the Minister has said and the Government are mindful, as I am sure the noble Baroness is, of not pushing people into poverty, what will be the effect of this order?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I was about to remind noble Lords that we have carried out an impact assessment of both the order and the Bill on child poverty. That is in the public domain. However, we cannot consider only the impact of these welfare changes; other dynamic changes are being made that will have an effect on child poverty. For example, the introduction of universal credit is expected to lift up to 250,000 children out of poverty. There are varying ways of looking at its impact on child poverty. We want to make sure that it is done in the round and that it is not considered in a one-dimensional way. We are very much seized of this issue and take it seriously.

My noble friend Lord Kirkwood asked about the GAD report. GAD has said that the balance of the national insurance fund at 31 March 2014 is expected to be greater than one-sixth of the amount of benefit payments in 2013-14 and that there is no immediate need to address the fund balance. We welcome this statement. GAD has also said that there is no immediate need to do anything to address the risk of the fund falling below the one-sixth threshold. It will review the situation again in a year’s time.

There were other points that the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, made which I have not covered already. He asked about various costings. I think that he asked about statutory maternity pay and the WRAG component. I will have to write to the noble Lord with the details of that. He also asked for information on the average time that people are on ESA—the work-related activity group. Fewer than half of new ESA claimants are on the benefit for a year, but perhaps that is something else on which I could write to the noble Lord with a little more background.

The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, also asked me—I may not have had an answer through on this; sorry, I have it here—which benefits are not covered by this order but are in the Bill. I think he was asking whether there was any inconsistency. He is right that this does not include tax credits; there will be a separate order on them, which should be coming soon. I think the only other significant difference between the order and the Bill is on child benefit.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

I also asked the related question of whether there is anything that is not uprated by only 1% for a CPI amount.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

That would include child dependency increases and capital limits, but I think I will have to write with a full list on that one.

The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, asked about the 1.5 million pensioners who will see a loss from the savings credit measures. The pass through to the triple lock is a cost-neutral measure: 1 million people gain an average of 50 pence. They are the poorest pensioners, but as this is cost neutral some will obviously see a smaller cash increase. One-and-a-half million pension credit claimants will see this smaller cash increase, which is on average about 35 pence. We have done this to provide protection for the poorest pensioners and ensure that they see the cash increase from the triple lock. As I said at the beginning, my main point here is that this order ensures that the poorest pensioners receive the proper entitlement to that triple lock and get its full benefit. As I have said, I will respond to any outstanding questions that I have not covered in writing.

In conclusion, my main point is that this uprating order is one for the long term, but it is critical to have regard to those who will be affected by the order today, and we have done that. I have already explained that we are spending an extra £2.8 billion on uprating pensions and benefits in 2013-14, enabling us to protect key benefits and vulnerable groups, but we are also taking decisions that will matter to all families in the years to come. Those decisions will help us to secure a better economy and a better future for everyone. That is something which I hope all noble Lords can support and it is on that basis that I commend these orders to the Committee.

Motion Agreed.