Equality: EC Policies on Women on Corporate Boards

Baroness Stowell of Beeston Excerpts

Wednesday 17th October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Falkner of Margravine]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their assessment of European Commission policies on women on corporate boards.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, the European Commission has yet to announce its proposed policy for women on boards. The Government agree with the Commission that increasing the representation of women on the boards of UK-listed companies is important. However, we are not in favour of EU legislation or regulation, including quotas. National-level solutions are best, and evidence shows that, following the Davies review that the Government commissioned in 2010, the UK’s voluntary, business-led approach is working.

[Baroness Falkner of Margravine]

I agree with my noble friend that the EU is probably not the body best placed to deal with this problem, particularly as corporate governance varies from country to country. However, does she agree that the real problem is the lack of progress on getting women executive directors on to FTSE 100 company boards? We have had good progress with non-executive directors; we have something like 22% against the Davies targets, which is progress. However, our flagship companies are not nurturing and developing talent to get people promoted from within. What are the Government proposing to do about that?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, my first point is to reinforce what progress has been made since the Davies review on the recruitment of women to boards. Notwithstanding the point that my noble friend made, it is worth saying that the percentage of women on FTSE 100 boards is now 17.3%; that is up from 10.5%. However, my noble friend is right to say that progress in executive ranks is not as fast. More effort is needed in that area, particularly around what is called strengthening the pipeline, so that women are recruited from a wider pool of backgrounds to these executive posts and that we do not rely just on the kind of criteria that are normally placed on men who are recruited to those jobs.

[Baroness Nye]

My Lords, I, too, welcome the increase in the number of women on boards, but does the Minister agree that the voluntary code needs to be reviewed, as the evidence suggests that while the 30% target for female applicants on the long list is being met, these women do not make it on to the shortlist? Surely the code should be extended to include targets for the shortlist as well.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

As I said about the shortlist, the executive search companies are putting forward 30% of women to companies; clearly that is working in getting women into non-executive positions. However, more work is needed to target the executive ranks. As I explained, this will take longer. It is worth noting that in countries such as Norway where there are quotas, the quotas in force for non-executives have not led to a greater improvement among the executive ranks at the same rate. This is a difficult problem that goes much wider than the narrow point we are discussing.

[Lord Watson of Richmond]

My Lords, does the noble Baroness not agree that public opinion plays a very important role in this and that the battle has to be won with public opinion? After all, what is the chance of recovery from recession unless women play a more important leadership role in our top companies?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My noble friend is absolutely right. The case for women in senior positions, whether they are executive or non-executive, is clear. Women account for nearly half the workforce and women outperform men educationally at every level. We are also responsible for about 70% of household purchasing decisions so it makes sense to have women in positions of authority in the corporate world.

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote]

My Lords, does the noble Baroness agree that a great deal of credit should be given to all sides of the House for encouraging more women in executive positions? Would she also agree that encouraging more boards to make flexible arrangements for men to work will increase the numbers of women who also have family responsibilities and are likely to come through to top executive positions?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

The noble Baroness makes an interesting point. The sooner employers think about the flexible arrangements to which she refers in the context of men as well as women, the more quickly women will be seen not as a special case but as what they rightly are—equal in terms of ability, and the type of people that we want in those positions.

[Baroness O'Cathain]

My Lords, does my noble friend agree that the work commissioned by this Government and continued by the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Abersoch, still continues and that he is very concerned about the issue raised by my noble friend on the pipeline leading to executive directors? I am convinced that progress has been made since 2010 whereby 13.3% of FTSE 100 companies had women on boards at that stage and now 34% of non-executive directors are women. At that stage, there were 21 male-only boards and now there are only eight. However, the work will continue and we do not need an EU directive on quotas because they are patronising.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

There are lots of statistics to show that progress is being made. As far as I am concerned, business needs to show that it wants women and not just that it is willing to put up with them

[Baroness Thornton]

My Lords, notwithstanding the party opposite’s visceral hostility to all things European, I think the Minister concedes that the fact that the European Commission has initiated this discussion will have focused the minds of many FTSE 350 companies on the need to address this problem. What are the Government doing to address the presence of women on public bodies, for example on health boards and clinical commissioning groups? Are the Government monitoring the number of women who are coming forward and are being appointed to those bodies as well?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

Just to be absolutely clear, while we do not support the quotas or the European legislation, we feel very strongly about this issue. I think that I am right in saying that we have a target of 50% for appointments to public bodies by 2020. If I am wrong I will write to the noble Baroness, but we are definitely ensuring that as much effort is made in that area as it is in the corporate world.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

My Lords, as two-thirds of the European Commission membership are themselves men, would not the Commission do better to put its own house in order before deciding on other people?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, I shall not say anything.

Education: Conservatoires

Baroness Stowell of Beeston Excerpts

Wednesday 10th October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lipsey]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they will meet the funding needs of the United Kingdom’s conservatoires.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, before we start the next debate noble Lords will obviously know that it is time-limited. This is one of those tricky ones where we have great interest in the debate, which leads to a very limited speaking time for Back-Bench contributions: two minutes, except for the noble Lord, Lord Lipsey. I will endeavour to have us working together. If everybody were to have three minutes, it would take us over the hour but at two minutes I will try not to be too draconian. I am sure noble Lords would not want me to be that. If we can all come in together at an hour at the end of it, that would be marvellous. Thank you.

[Lord Lipsey]

My Lords, I start by declaring two non-pecuniary interests: as chair of the all-party classical music group and, as of 1 October, as chair also of the Trinity Laban Conservatoire of Music and Dance in London. I imagine that most of the many noble Lords participating in this debate have had the experience of walking into a music conservatoire. In my new position, I have the privilege of regularly walking in to the magnificent old naval college building in Greenwich, where the Trinity music school is situated, to find a jazz saxophonist practising up there, Bach cello music coming from down there and a bit of John Cage—I do not necessarily move towards that window—coming from over there. On the same visit, I may go to the Laban dance building, which won the Stirling architecture prize. There, because it does modern dance, you see bodies of all shapes and sizes—and yes, of course, of both sexes but also of every kind of racial background that you can imagine—working and working to perfect their art form. Every time that I go in there, it sends a tingle down my spine.

I am tempted just to say that and sit down, which might be very welcome as the House does not like people to go on for too long. The reason that I could sit down is the number of noble Lords who have put their names down to speak in this debate, even though they know that once they have cleared their throat they will have to sit down again. This really shows that this is one of those issues which may not seem huge on the great national tapestry but are of burning importance, not just to the people who work or study in the sector but to the whole of the culture. If anything in this world is of value, it is music, dance and drama and the conservatoires that make them possible.

I should also say at the beginning that this is not a “bash the Government” debate. I can do “too many cuts” speeches off the top of my head; I have been doing them for many years. When the Government introduced their new arrangements for higher education funding, I think that the special circumstances of the conservatoires did not enter their heads. That was certainly the impression that I got from ministerial correspondence at the time. However, to be fair, the Government have since woken up to the problem. My classical music group had an excellent meeting with David Willetts, the responsible Minister, over the summer. He was very concerned to listen to us. The Higher Education Funding Council for England is also sympathetic. This is not about “damn cuts” but it is, I suppose, special pleading and I will now make that special plea.

What, in a nutshell, is the problem? It is this: conservatoire education is by its very nature expensive to provide. You need one-to-one teaching; you need lots of space for people to practise; you need decent instruments, which are a lot more expensive than the whiteboard arrangements needed at a normal university. In recognition of this, successive Governments have provided funding for the sector—most notably through the exceptional funding that HEFCE provides. This is now coming under pressure. The higher education review that the Government published envisaged much higher fees and a consequent reduction in special funding. We are not going to argue with that; our fees will go up, as have those of other undergraduate institutions. However, we do not even have a guarantee that special funding will continue beyond the end of this year. HEFCE has kept it going for a further year in 2012-13 but is reviewing it now. An announcement is expected in December 2012. My colleagues and I operate every day with the sword of Damocles still poised over our heads.

The situation is very tough. HEFCE funding has been reduced by £9.7 million in cash terms and 16.1% in real terms since 2009-10. All conservatoires have been hit by the previous Government deciding that if you had done a first degree somewhere, you could not then go and do a first degree somewhere else and be funded for it. So someone who is a chemist but turns out to be a brilliant pianist cannot now get any funding if they go off to do a degree in piano. There has been a virtual removal of capital funding for teaching, which, as I said, needs to be much higher—you cannot buy a Steinway for the price of a blackboard. So the general situation that we face is very tough.

We ought to have a sense of proportion about this funding gap. The total funding for exceptional funding from HEFCE is £20 million. At the Conservative Party conference this week—this is not a party political point—the Government said that they were seeking, from social security benefits alone, cuts of £10 billion. That is 500 lots of our total funding. This money is not material in terms of its impact on the deficit, on the Exchequer or on anything like that, but it is oh so material regarding what happens at our conservatoires.

It is not easy for us to find other income. For example, we are looking the whole time for more foreign students but we face a great deal of competition, including from European institutions which are subsidised by their Governments, and now we have the problems created by immigration law, which were dramatically illustrated by the London Metropolitan affair. Trinity Laban suffers because the Americans have just cut off loans that were previously paid to fund students from the Americas because we do not have degree-awarding powers yet. The Government have made it more difficult for our students to get jobs after graduation, since you have to show that you can earn £20,000-plus a year and it is not easy for a music student to do that because they have a portfolio of earnings that come from different places.

We are also trying for philanthropic support, but that is not an instant solution either. The easiest thing to raise philanthropic support for is scholarships, but that just means that you get one student paid for by philanthropy who otherwise would be a student paid for through HEFCE in the normal way of business. It is not just money that goes through to the bottom line. We work on commercial money like mad but it is not easy to make yourself a billionaire from music.

Costs are being cut to the bone. I mentioned the beautiful buildings in Greenwich but I am afraid that the paint is peeling. It is hard to escape the conclusion that a proper contribution from government is essential if the conservatoires are to survive and prosper. This was recognised in the report by Darren Henley, the boss of Classic FM—no egghead he, but a good egg nevertheless—whose cultural education review in 2012, which the Government were very keen on, said:

“The government should recognise the need for exceptional funding for culturally based conservatoires, which train the artists, actors, dancers and musicians who will create and perform the culture of the future. The funding settlements for these conservatoires should be secured for the long-term”.

That last sentence is very important. It is not easy to plan the future and institutions such as this if you do not know where next year’s money is coming from.

With cuts here, there and everywhere—£10 billion of cuts—some might question whether institutions such as the conservatoires should be a priority for public spending, but no one should doubt the contribution that they make to the economy. Trinity Laban is in the top five higher education institutions in the country in terms of its graduates going into jobs. These are motivated people who are determined to work and find a way of making a living. Conservatoires contribute to jobs and to foreign exchange with students from abroad, and culture today is big business. However, I defend conservatoires not simply on those grounds but on these: our resilience as a nation in the crisis that we face in our economy depends not just on material matters—it depends on the values that sustain us as a society. A land without music, every kind of music, or dance of the highest quality is a land that has lost its soul, and once it has lost its soul it will lose the rest of its way too.

Jobseeker’s Allowance (Sanctions) (Amendment) Regulations 2012

Baroness Stowell of Beeston Excerpts

Wednesday 10th October 2012 Lords Chamber

Moved By

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

That the draft regulations laid before the House on 4 and 9 July be approved.

Relevant documents: 6th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, 9th Report from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee, considered in Grand Committee on 8 October.

Motions agreed.

Late Night Levy (Application and Administration) Regulations 2012

Baroness Stowell of Beeston Excerpts

Monday 8th October 2012 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

That the Grand Committee do report to the House that it has considered the Late Night Levy (Application and Administration) Regulations 2012.

Relevant documents: 6th Report Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, I beg to move that the Grand Committee considers the Late Night Levy (Application and Administration) Regulations 2012, which were laid before Parliament on 4 July.

Alcohol-related crime and disorder is a serious problem for many communities. In 2010-11 there were almost 1 million alcohol-related violent crimes. That is approximately half of all violent crimes. As the Committee is aware, the Government have already taken significant steps to rebalance the Licensing Act to enable local agencies to tackle alcohol-related crime and disorder more effectively. For instance, from April 2012 local agencies have been able to challenge irresponsible businesses more easily by refusing, revoking or imposing conditions on a licence, as the evidential threshold has been reduced from what is “necessary” to what is “appropriate” to take such steps.

In March the Government also published our alcohol strategy, which signals a radical change in approach to dealing with binge drinking and tackling the harms caused by excessive alcohol consumption. The strategy is clear that turning the tide against irresponsible drinking will require collective action, and it includes a range of measures such as reducing the availability of cheap alcohol and supporting responsible businesses and growth.

Alcohol-related crime and disorder costs the taxpayer approximately £11 billion every year, and the police regard the night-time economy as one of the main causes of overtime payments. Many businesses profit from selling alcohol in a safe night-time economy. It is right that those businesses make a reasonable contribution towards late-night policing, rather than relying on other taxpayers in the community to bear the full costs.

The late night levy is a tool to help local agencies do just that by raising a contribution from late-opening alcohol retailers towards policing the night-time economy. Introduced by the Police Reform and Social Responsibility Act 2011, this relates to the coalition’s ambition to permit local councils to raise a contribution from those with late-night licences towards the cost of policing the night-time economy in England and Wales.

The levy is a discretionary power, and it is therefore for individual licensing authorities to decide whether it is appropriate in their area. If introduced by the local authority, any premises in the licensing authority’s area licensed to sell alcohol during the levy period will be liable to pay. The licensing authority chooses the period during which the levy applies between midnight and 6 am on each night and whether to apply exemptions and reductions from a menu prescribed in regulations, although not the regulations before the Committee today. The revenue raised by the levy will be split between the police and the licensing authorities, once licensing authority costs have been deducted, with the police receiving at least 70% and licensing authorities up to 30%.

The levy will raise an estimated £17.1 million each year across England and Wales. Once licensing authority administration costs are deducted, this should raise at least £11.1 million for the police and up to £4.7 million for local authorities, depending on how the revenue is split.

The regulations under consideration today relate to the application and administration of the levy. They set out a range of matters relevant to the administration, including the basis on which holders of premises, licences and club premises certificates are liable to pay the levy, including when they are liable, the charge for which they are liable and when they are liable to pay it; what adjustments may be made to their liability to the levy; how the licensing authority must pay the police their share of revenue and what it can spend its own portion on; and the consultation that licensing authorities must run prior to the introduction or variation of the levy.

It is worth highlighting two elements of these regulations which may be of particular interest: the types of services on which licensing authorities can spend their money, and the levy charge. During the consultation, a number of respondents raised the issue of how levy revenue could be spent locally. Licensing authorities in particular call for the types of services on which they could spend their share of the revenue to be broadened from those that prevent and tackle alcohol-related crime and disorder to services that are also connected to the management of the night-time economy.

The Committee will be pleased to hear that the Government have listened to licensing authorities. The regulations will therefore now enable licensing authorities to fund activities such as street cleaning—clearing up the broken glass and general debris that litters so many of our town centres in the morning—as well as services such as CCTV and taxi marshals.

The level of the late-night levy charge has remained the same since the levy provisions in the Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill were considered by this House. We believe that this is a fair contribution, given the estimated £11 billion annual cost to the taxpayer of alcohol-related crime and disorder. The charges paid by those premises liable for the levy are determined on broadly the same basis as fees under the existing alcohol licensing regime. Premises are allocated to bands in accordance with their rateable value. These are the same bands as those used for determining the level of their fees under the Licensing Act, such as their annual fee. Moreover, the levy will in almost all cases be payable at the same time as the annual fee. It should therefore make the levy simple for licensing authorities to administer as they can collect it alongside the annual fee each year, keeping administration costs to a minimum.

Using the same design as the existing licence fee also means that premises that are likely to be larger and more profitable, such as a supermarket or large nightclub, are likely to pay more than a small one-roomed pub. We estimate that almost one-quarter of premises with the lowest rateable value—those in band A, such as many small pubs—will pay a contribution of £299 each year and over half of premises in the next band, band B, will pay £768 each year. Only around 0.5% of premises in the highest band, the largest city centre pubs and clubs that exclusively or primarily sell only alcohol for consumption on the premises, will pay the maximum levy charge of £4,440.

The Government are clear that local communities and agencies are best placed to tackle alcohol-related issues in their area and that the late-night levy is a critical tool in helping them to create the night-time economy that they want. They recognise the vital role of the police and licensing authorities in maintaining a safe night-time economy and will help to support the provision of visible and proactive policing and other services where they are needed. I hope that the Committee will agree with the Government that these regulations are an appropriate use of the powers conferred on the Home Secretary by the Police Reform and Social Responsibility Act. I beg to move.

--- Later in debate ---

I understand the principle that the Government are trying to address. My concerns here are specific: will this work and is it practical, or is there a danger that all the Government are doing here is cutting expenditure in one area and then passing on new costs to businesses—costs that have previously been covered by business rates and licence fees—to replace the funding that is being cut from their budgets?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Basildon, for her contribution, as well as my noble friend Lady Hamwee. I will seek to address the points that have been raised. I start by saying clearly that the late-night levy does not affect any pub or club that is open during standard opening hours—that is, not open beyond midnight. We are talking only about premises that are going to be late-night premises. It is important that I restate that because often, when we get into debates of this kind, when we are talking we quite naturally assume that everyone else knows that this relates only to a specific portion of a particular sector rather than to everyone.

I thank the noble Baroness for her warm welcome. In fact, one of the few things that have not changed in my range of responsibilities in the past few weeks is being Home Office Whip, so in fact I am staying put on this one. It is always a pleasure to face the noble Baroness at the Dispatch Box. I will try to address her points before I turn to my noble friend’s, which cover more specific points of detail, and it might be the simplest thing to take them in order.

The noble Baroness welcomed our commitment to review how the levy worked but asked why we said that we would do so a minimum of five years after it had taken place. To commit now to when we will conduct that review would be premature because we need to see how it operates before we can say that. However, I take the point on board; if the levy is not operating correctly, then we will need to review it sooner rather than later.

The noble Baroness asked about the 70:30 revenue split between the police and the local authority. I can confirm that the cost will be removed from the revenue before that split takes place. As to whether there will be any guidelines, or publication around those guidelines, so that a local authority prescribes costs at a reasonable level, we will specify in separate regulations the type of expenses that may be deducted by the licensing authority. There is a power in the regulations for a limit to be placed on the amount that licensing authorities can charge for certain administrative costs under the late-night levy, and this would be used only if it became clear that there was widespread overcharging of expenses by the licensing authorities.

I understand the noble Baroness’s wider point concerning transparency in how the money is spent, and people will want to see that. With regard to the use made by the police of the money they receive, I would expect the local police and crime commissioners, once they are in place and as part of their responsibility to make public how the police budgets are being used, to include some reference to this. However, that will obviously be a matter for them.

The noble Baroness, Lady Smith, asked how many police officers will be employed as a result of the late-night levy. It is not possible for me to be specific on that but I would reiterate a point that I made earlier. While, as I have said and she has acknowledged, the late-night levy is being introduced as a way of contributing to a range of measures to tackle late-night binge-drinking and all its effects, we are not expecting it to cover all policing costs around the late-night economy. It will make a contribution.

The noble Baroness asked about premises which are not currently open between midnight and 6 am, or which may want to take advantage of the window that will be open to them. Some establishments may decide to change their opening hours in order not to be caught by the levy, and there will be an opportunity for them to do so without incurring any costs. However, if there are premises whose licences allow them to open only prior to whatever time period the local authority decides to introduce, they will be able to apply for temporary extension notices for occasional events, as they do now.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

In those circumstances, I assume that they would not have to pay the late-night levy.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

That is correct. The noble Baroness asked who is covered by the exemptions—a point also referred to by my noble friend Lady Hamwee. For the sake of accuracy, it is worth saying that the exemptions and reductions are not covered by these regulations; they are part of another set of regulations. However, the noble Baroness asked whether restaurants in particular would be exempt. A restaurant selling alcohol that was open during the period during which the local authority deemed the late-night levy would apply would be caught by the levy. However, excluded under the exemptions would be a hotel with overnight accommodation whose bar was open only to residents during the period of late-night levy that might be operational in another part of the authority. That hotel would not be caught.

My noble friend asked about exemptions. As I said, those are not strictly covered by these regulations, but I think that one of her points was to question why the exemptions are not by geographic area but by types of establishment—perhaps expressing her disappointment is a better way to define it. That is because it would be very difficult for the licensing authority to introduce the levy in that way. One of the things that we are trying to achieve is to make sure that this is the least burdensome that it can possibly be in terms of administrative cost. If a venue operating in a part of the licensing authority was caught by the levy charges, had opened in that levy’s time and had attracted any kind of policing need, policing costs would be involved by the very nature of the police probably having to leave the town centre to go to that area. However, there are specific exemptions, as my noble friend acknowledged. Venues such as country village pubs would fall under that heading.

The noble Baroness asked about the business improvement districts and how in particular they are caught by the exemptions. These matters are not the subject of the regulations today but we have made provision in separate regulations that business improvement districts with a crime prevention objective will be capable of being exempt from the levy, which addresses her concern on that. She also asked whether the licensing authority would have discretion on community premises. The authority will not have to make a new decision on community premises because they are already defined as a group of premises under the Licensing Act. If somebody’s premises fall under that heading, they are already identified as being premises of that kind.

Before I turn to the detail of my noble friend’s questions, the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, asked how many authorities we expect to introduce the levy. I think I am right in saying that the number she was referring me to was actually for the EMROs. As far as the late-night levy is concerned, we expect about 94 licensing authorities to take advantage of it.

As to the specific questions raised by my noble friend on why the licensing authority has discretion under Regulation 7(3), we believe that licensing authorities should have the discretion to adjust a holder’s liability if the licence is surrendered—for instance, because the licence holder ceases to trade. There is good reason for this. The availability of such discretion reflects the fact that the circumstances in which a licence holder may surrender the licence will vary considerably from case to case. For instance, a licensing authority might choose to exercise this discretion where the surrender is as a result of the licence holder suffering a long-term illness, but not in a case where a licence holder surrendered the licence in anticipation of it being revoked at a review hearing. We believe that it should be open to a licensing authority to decide that holders whose licences are revoked for contravening the licensing objectives should not be eligible for a reduction in their liability to the levy.

My noble friend also asked why premises under construction are to go into band C—a single band regardless of size—in Regulation 4(2). Premises that have a rateable value will be placed in the appropriate band. Regulation 4(2) addresses only those cases where there is no rateable value. Some premises, such as public parks or agricultural land, are exempt from rating. Where this is the reason that there is no rating, the premises are treated as being in the lowest band, band A. Where the premises have no rateable value because they are under construction, the premises are placed in band C.

Finally, my noble friend asked why, when there are two or more hereditaments, the rateable value is not the aggregate. The use of the higher band in Regulation 4(4), as opposed to the aggregate, is intended to reflect the way such a case would be treated under the current fees regulations as a matter of administrative convenience. It should be noted that this is expected to be a rare and temporary circumstance. Where there is identity of occupation, the premises will form a single hereditament.

I think I have covered the points that have been raised today. In conclusion, the levy is a key part of our work to rebalance the Licensing Act in favour of local communities. I am sure the Committee will agree that it is right that those businesses that benefit from selling alcohol late at night should make a reasonable contribution to late-night policing costs.

I am grateful for the support that has been voiced today by noble Lords.

[Baroness Hamwee]

With regard to my point about premises under construction, the Minister’s answer—and I do not blame her as it is all quite complicated—was, “Well, when they’re under construction, they’re in band C”, which is repeating the question rather than being an answer. Will she be able to let me have a note about the underlying thinking about why they will be in band C and why there is any need for a band to be attributed to premises which are not operating because they are still being constructed? I do not want to delay noble Lords now but I will be interested in the detail if the noble Baroness is able to deal with it after today.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I am grateful to my noble friend for her patience and for highlighting that I had not properly responded to her question. I will follow up in writing.

Motion agreed.

Jobseeker’s Allowance (Sanctions) (Amendment) Regulations 2012

Baroness Stowell of Beeston Excerpts

Monday 8th October 2012 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

That the Grand Committee do report to the House that it has considered the Jobseeker’s Allowance (Sanctions) (Amendment) Regulations 2012.

Relevant documents: 6th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, 9th Report from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, this instrument was laid in draft before the House on 9 July this year. It is regarded as being compatible with the European Convention on Human Rights. This instrument provides for a more effective, more proportionate and clearer sanctions system, but it also preserves the important safeguards that are required to ensure a fair and balanced system.

I think that there is a general agreement that it is right to expect claimants who are able to look for or to prepare for work to do so. We provide people with financial support when they are out of work. In return for that financial support, we expect them to do everything they reasonably can to get back into work. We know that active job search and engagement with advisers increases the chances that people find work more quickly than they would otherwise.

Most people who find themselves out of work and in receipt of jobseeker’s allowance are doing everything they can to get back into work and are complying with the conditions associated with this benefit. But not everyone is, and for those people, a more effective sanctions regime is needed. A sanctions regime should be clear and proportionate, and should fully encourage claimants to meet the requirements that will support them back to work.

The current sanctions regime is not achieving those objectives as well as it might. Let me offer a little more detail on the limitations of the current regime and how these new regulations will address those. First, some of the existing sanctions are simply not tough enough, and there is little to deter claimants from repeatedly failing to apply for a job or look for work. For example, if someone fails to meet one of the most important requirements, such as refusing a suitable job offer without good reason, they may be sanctioned for as little as one week. These regulations introduce escalating sanctions periods so that in relation to these most serious failures, the sanction periods will be 13 weeks for the first failure, 26 weeks for a second failure within a year of the previous one, and 156 weeks, or three years, for a third or further failure within a year of a previous failure which resulted in a 26 or 156-week sanction. So sanctions will be tougher for those who repeatedly fail to meet their requirements and repeatedly fail to change their behaviour.

Three-year sanctions will apply only in the most extreme cases where claimants have serially and deliberately breached their most important requirements. For these claimants, previous sanctions of 13 weeks and 26 weeks have unfortunately not provided sufficient deterrent to change their behaviour. We anticipate that very few claimants will be subject to this length of sanction, but we believe that such a sanction is necessary to act as a deterrent and to ensure compliance with the requirements that are critical to helping claimants move back into work.

We cannot expect sanctions to act as a deterrent unless the sanctions themselves are clear. Currently they are not. A sanction for failing to apply for a job could be anything between one and 26 weeks. Under the new regime, claimants will be able to understand upfront exactly how their benefit will be affected. They will know that the first time they refuse a job offer without a good reason they will get a 13-week sanction.

There is also a lack of clarity in relation to sanctions for failure to comply with the requirement designed to improve a claimant’s chances of finding or preparing for work. Currently there is a complex range of sanctions for these types of failure, including one or two-week sanctions for failing to attend an interview at a jobcentre, two and four-week sanctions for other failures such as failing to carry out a direction from an adviser and 26-week sanctions for some claimants in the work programme. Under these regulations, the sanction for not meeting such requirements will be set at a clear and simple period of four weeks for a first failure and 13 weeks for a second or subsequent failure within a year of the previous failure.

Another feature of the current system is that in some circumstances there are only limited consequences for failing to be available for work or failing to actively seek work. Not meeting these basic conditions of entitlement generally leads to disentitlement from jobseeker’s allowance. But currently those who are disentitled for these reasons can reclaim straightaway and in some cases lose only one or two days’ benefit. It is not right that claimants can fail to meet the fundamental requirements of claiming benefit and yet face little consequence. Therefore, those who reapply for benefit following disentitlement for these reasons will be subject to the new sanction of up to four weeks for a first disentitlement and up to 13 weeks for a second or subsequent disentitlement within a year of the latest one.

We want to introduce into the sanction regime some recognition for claimants who do the right thing. Therefore, as a new incentive for claimants to return to sustained work, if they work for six months before they become re-entitled to jobseeker’s allowance, the balance of any outstanding sanction is lifted. Under this regime, some things will not change and important safeguards will remain in place. We will continue to tailor requirements to suit claimant circumstances, for example to allow for caring responsibilities and to take account of mental or physical health conditions. Claimants will have the opportunity to explain why they have not complied with a requirement. Just as now, if they provide a good reason a sanction will not be imposed.

Claimants will still be able to request further information about the sanction decision, request a reconsideration and appeal against the decision. If claimants have concerns about whether the correspondence address they have given us is secure, we will arrange for letters and notifications to go to an alternative address or to be picked up from the jobcentre.

These regulations will broadly align the jobseeker’s allowance sanctions regime with that for universal credit. As well as providing the clarity and proportionate consequences described earlier, this change will ease the transition to universal credit for both claimants and Jobcentre Plus staff.

In conclusion, these changes are intended to better drive the behaviour that maximises a claimant’s chances of finding suitable work. I commend them to the Committee.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for introducing these regulations. I welcome the noble Baroness, Lady Stowell of Beeston, to her first appearance at the Dispatch Box on DWP matters. We hope that there will be many more such appearances and that this is not just an operational response to the absence of the noble Lord, Lord Freud, who drew the short straw and had to go to the party conference.

We cannot support these regulations. That should be clear to the Minister from the debate in the other place. That is not to say that we oppose every aspect of them, nor do we oppose the principle of sanctions. Properly constructed and fairly applied, they have an important place in the benefits system. They encourage compliance with claimant obligations. We also support regulation for a clearer relationship between the length of a sanction and how that relates to the failure to comply with the particular obligations.

What concerns us in particular, however, is the three-year sanction, which we consider to be excessive and, indeed, counterproductive. As was spelt out in the other place, the concern over the three-year sanction is not only that it will inevitably create hardship but that it will create an extended period where there is a weak connection with the labour market. Will the Minister clarify what ongoing obligations an individual has during the period of the sanction and what entitlements the individual has during that period; for example, their access to the Work Programme? Would failure to meet any obligations during a period of sanctions itself be further sanctionable?

In considering these regulations and the JSA regulations, we need to be mindful of what is happening at the moment with all the reassessments, the flawed application of the WCA and the fact that many people were being pushed on to that benefit from ESA and IB. I would be grateful if the Minister would also clarify the circumstances where someone subject to a sanction gets a job and ceases to be eligible for JSA. What precisely is the position on their reclaiming? Paragraph 7.7 of the Explanatory Memorandum suggests that there is a disentitlement of four or 13 weeks where the original disentitlement was related to,

“not being available or actively seeking work”.

However, does this replace any unexpired portion of the original sanction or is it additional to it? What is the position of somebody who is subject to a 26-week sanction for refusing work but who gets a job for two weeks after, say, one month and then reverts to JSA? They would have been without JSA for six weeks. Do they have a further seven weeks of sanctions to go?

I have some more specific questions. Can we have an update relating to the numbers of sanctions and disentitlements? When we debated this during the Welfare Reform Bill it was noted that there was an alarming increase in 2010-11 in comparison with the previous year and a 42% increase between July and September 2010 in comparison with the comparable preceding period. Can we be given the numbers for the subsequent year, please? We have previously been assured that there is no question of the DWP having formal or informal targets for sanctions and that the previous overzealous misinterpretation of instructions has now been corrected. Will the Minister confirm that this is the case? Can we be told what management statistics will be collected on a routine basis and the use to which they will be put? While not being a target, what provision is made as regards the budgets for reductions in benefit arising from the application of sanctions for the current year, and what is the split between pre and post-October 2012 data?

Under the current arrangements, the days of a sanction period count towards any 182-day entitlement to contribution-based JSA. Will that change? Under the existing regime, we have the saving of just cause relating to leaving a job voluntarily and good cause for neglecting to avail oneself of a job opportunity. These terms have been developed in regulations and, it is understood, from time to time in commissioners’ decisions. The Explanatory Memorandum sets out that these concepts are to be subsumed into a new good reason concept, the interpretation of which is left to decision-makers. Does this mean that all existing precedents and guidance are to be disregarded? For example, a person is currently treated as having good cause if they do not accept a job that is vacant because of a trade dispute: that is, they are not required to be a strike breaker. Will this protection still operate under the new sanctions? Currently, if there is no automatic good cause, the decision-maker must nevertheless take certain circumstances into account. These include where a particular job or carrying out of a jobseeker’s direction would be likely to cause excessive physical or mental stress. What will happen to this requirement under the new regime and, similarly, the requirement for decision-makers to take religious and conscientious objections into account? Is there to be any guidance on this issue in the new world of sanctions? How will the consistency of approach to these matters be assured and, indeed, monitored within the department? The proposed penalty regime escalates—13 weeks; 26 weeks; three years—and the escalation is determined by the number of prior failures. At its point of introduction, what account is taken of any sanctionable failures prior to that date? Is the slate wiped clean at that point?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Touhig]

My Lords, I join other noble Lords in welcoming the noble Baroness to her job and I hope she will leave this sitting with the benefit of the wise words of the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope. He made an important point that there is a distinction between fraud and error. When I served on the Public Accounts Committee in the House of Commons, the Department for Work and Pensions never seemed to make that distinction. Error was always considered to be fraud—that was always the general tenor of its evidence. It is important, especially with the changes proposed by the Government, that people are given the benefit of the doubt if there is a genuine error.

I would like to start where the noble Lord, Lord German, ended. At the end of his remarks, he referred to bringing together the sanctions regime for jobseeker’s allowance, the employment and support allowance and universal credit. What concerns me, and perhaps the Minister can answer this, is whether this realignment of the sanctions will involve the major IT project that is being prepared for universal credit. A number of us are concerned about the IT project for universal credit. Will this alignment mean that more people will have to claim their benefit online? Can the noble Baroness also tell us how many people presently claim JSA online?

What changes do the Government expect in the way that people will claim online when universal credit is fully rolled out in October 2013? The present chairman of the Public Accounts Committee, Margaret Hodge, has said that universal credit is,

“a train crash waiting to happen”.

In my experience serving on the Public Accounts Committee in the Commons, every major government IT project in the past 20 years has gone pear-shaped because of the failure of the IT systems. I think that these changes should be resisted but if the Government insist on pushing them forward, the last thing we want is the most vulnerable people having their benefits stopped because of some failure in the Government’s IT programme. The Minister should make it clear how much this will depend on the new IT system for universal credit. In response to my noble friend Lord McKenzie, perhaps she can tell us if the universal credit programme is likely to slip. We are told that the pathfinders will be introduced in April 2013 and the full scheme in October. We need to know this as it will affect the lives of many vulnerable people. Those of us who have sat in the House of Commons or other devolved Administrations in the United Kingdom have constantly had people come to them in their surgeries with problems where the system has let them down.

When I have taken up issues—I am sure this is not uncommon with other noble Lords who have served as elected representatives in the House of Commons and the devolved Administrations—I have been told, “Sorry, X falls through the net”. Who created the net? We created the net and if we are not careful with the way we are changing this net a lot of vulnerable people will be adversely affected. So I hope the Minister can give us answers to these important questions.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I am grateful for the contributions that have been made in the debate today. A number of points of detail have been raised which I will do my best to go through before I conclude my responses. I will try to cover these points in groups rather than going through every individual one systematically, as I feel that it is important to cover some of the general points made by noble Lords that fall under several headings.

I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, for welcoming me warmly to the Dispatch Box, but of course I am disappointed that he does not feel able to support these regulations. I have listened carefully to all the points that have been made today, and most of them have been questions about the regulations and concerns expressed about them. In answering them, however, I can go a long way to addressing them.

The people I think about most when I consider what we are doing today is those who find themselves suddenly out of work through no fault of their own, and who are desperate to get back into work and are doing everything that they possibly can to do so. When they go on to jobseeker’s allowance, or in due course when they are receiving an element of benefits that will apply under the universal credit, people will want to know that while the rest of us are fortunate to be in work at that time, a regime is in place that respects those who are doing everything that they can while penalising clearly and appropriately those who do not. They will want to know that they are entering into a regime that is properly labelled and properly reflects that they are trying their best to do what they can for themselves, and we will not do them any service by putting in place a regime that is not clear.

The noble Baroness, Lady Turner of Camden, used some colourful language that she may have been trying to ascribe to those of us in government regarding what we are doing. I assure her that we are not saying that.

There were concerns about what will happen if people find themselves affected by the sanctions and not in receipt of benefits. Let us not forget that the reason why people are entitled to jobseeker’s allowance is that they are fit and able to look for work. Because they are fit and able to work but are not able to find work at that time, the payment is made to them. If they are not doing what is required of them to entitle them to the benefit, then it is only right that they should be sanctioned; there should be a clear deterrent in order that they should comply with the expectations placed upon them. If they are sanctioned, then what they lose is the jobseeker’s allowance—they do not lose any of the other benefits that they may be entitled to, such as a hardship payment or housing benefit. While this measure may look very severe, it is important to bear it in mind that this is about jobseeker’s allowance; it is not about all benefits over a period of time. I will come back to the politics to which the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, referred, because they are worth addressing, but not until I have dealt with some other matters.

Several noble Lords, including the noble Baroness, asked when a three-year sanction will apply and how it will be communicated. The new system will be explained to claimants. It would apply where a claimant has three times failed to apply for suitable job offers for work which they are capable of doing. The regulations are not designed to leave people in hardship, as I said, but to be a deterrent. Claimants will still be able to claim a hardship payment of up to 80% of JSA for the length of the sanction. They still have access to passported benefits such as housing benefit, free school meals and free prescriptions.

I know that there is a lot of concern about those who may face a three-year sanction. It is important to say that we do not expect many people to end up being sanctioned for three years. If the system is to work properly, the deterrent should be strong enough for us to avoid that. However, during a three-year sanction, a person is still entitled to JSA although it is not paid. They may receive hardship payments, but to do so will still need to meet conditionality, and their adviser will still work with them to help them to find work during the sanction period—a point made by the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood. In response to him, I repeat that we must be clear that JSA is a benefit for people who are deemed to be fit for work and not confuse JSA with other benefits of which they may be in receipt.

The noble Baroness, Lady Turner of Camden, asked: how can people who are sanctioned find work when there are no jobs to be had? I refute that point. At any one time, there are about half a million unfilled vacancies in the economy, but that is only a snapshot that hides the dynamism of the job market in which most vacancies are filled quickly and new ones are coming up for people to move into. It is worth noting that of those who come on to jobseeker’s allowance, about 50% leave within three months and 75% within six months.

Several noble Lords—the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, in particular—asked about the evidence to support the introduction of the sanctions and what research had been done. Evidence from the UK and internationally shows that sanctions motivate claimants to engage with job search and other labour market requirements. For example, the DWP research suggests that more than half of claimants say that they are more likely to look for work because of the threat of sanctions.

Last summer, I spent about three days visiting jobcentres and spending time with advisers who were interviewing claimants as they came in. It was notable to me during those sessions how sanctions were a topic very much discussed and how once they became a possibility, some people who might not otherwise have done so changed their behaviour. Many noble Lords asked whether people under sanction would be supported by the jobcentre. I have already covered that; that is clear.

[Lord McAvoy]

The Minister is dealing with a series of complicated matters, but I seek clarification. In the other place, Mrs Anne McGuire said:

“It is important to remember that a person who is sanctioned will cease to receive their £71 per week in jobseeker’s allowance or the universal credit standard allowance”.

How does that fit in with what the Minister says? It was not contradicted by the Minister in the other place.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

Could the noble Lord repeat the point he is making?

[Lord McAvoy]

I do not see any sign that Ms Baldwin rejected this. My right honourable friend said:

“It is important to remember that a person who is sanctioned will cease to receive their £71 per week in jobseeker’s allowance or the universal credit standard allowance”—[Official Report, Commons, Eight Delegated Legislation Committee, 11/9/12; col. 6.]

Is that the case, or has the situation changed?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

That is the case. That is what I have explained. If you are sanctioned, you are not in receipt of jobseeker’s allowance. There may be other benefits that you are entitled to, such as housing benefit. I think it is the use of the word “entitled” that is confusing matters, and I must apologise if I am confusing the Committee.

If somebody receives a sanction which leads to them not receiving their jobseeker’s allowance, that does not mean that they are not entitled to jobseeker’s allowance; it just means that they are not in receipt of it because they have not done something that is required of them in order to be entitled to receive that allowance. To be disentitled means that you have to stop being—I forget what the precise language is—available and able to carry out work. I think I have used imprecise language, and I apologise.

The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie of Luton—

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

I shall pick up the point the noble Baroness has made. I apologise for interrupting. If somebody has been sanctioned for three years and the local job market is such that the prospects of getting employment for six months look pretty grim yet nevertheless they are still, at least in theory, subject to JSA conditionality, what will encourage them to undertake those obligations? It seems to me that if you have a three-year period when this persists, people will drift from that support. There is nothing that encourages them to engage. If they do not engage, does that mean that they could be further sanctioned during that period?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I think this is a point that the noble Lord raised earlier, and I was coming to it. I repeat that I think the number of people who will be sanctioned for a three-year period will be very small. However, during any sanction period somebody who is in receipt of a sanction will still be required to go into the jobcentre and receive support from the staff to help them get back into work. That aspect of the support that is available to somebody out of work would not be removed.

The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie of Luton, asked what measures we are putting in place to monitor the new sanctions to see whether they have the intended effect. There is a process in place. The department will consider undertaking further analysis once the findings suggest further lines of inquiry. There is a process that will monitor the process.

I think it was the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, who asked about pilots, which may have been in the same ballpark. On that matter, these regulations make changes to the JSA regime for a temporary period. It is the universal credit regime that will be tested in pilot, not these interim changes.

The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, asked whether a sanction would still apply if someone who is sanctioned finds work, so the claim ends, and then reclaims. I am sure that he will clarify this for me if I have misunderstood, but he perhaps meant to go back to my misuse of language around sanction and disentitlement or entitlement. A 13-week sanction would apply only to a new claim after a disentitlement for failure to meet the jobseeking conditions. If someone had a sanction and then found work so that their claim ends, on a reclaim the unexpired portion of the previous sanction would apply, as now.

There were quite a few questions from various noble Lords about the process of decision-making and definitions of “good reason”. The noble Lord, Lord German, asked about this and why examples of good reason have been removed from regulations. Under the revised regime, we want the decision-maker to take into consideration all the facts and evidence presented by the claimant. We think that the regulations were perhaps a little too prescriptive. We would much rather that the decision-maker were in a better place to make that change.

The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, asked why we are replacing “good cause” with “good reason”. This is just a simplification of language; it makes no substantial change. As now, if claimants can show good reason for failing to meet requirements, they will not receive a sanction. The noble Lord asked how well the “good reason” provision will work in practice. Notwithstanding what I said about regulations, examples of possible factors that might count as “good reason” include a sincere religious or conscientious objection, caring responsibilities, emergency duties, and so on, but this is not an exhaustive list.

The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, certainly asked some specific questions about protections and whether trade disputes or a religion would still exist in referring decisions about whether somebody should apply for a job vacancy. Advisers can continue to agree restrictions on the type of job that a person is willing to take. These relate to the type of employment for which that person is available, the terms of employment and the locality. That would include those with religious or conscientious convictions, who may not wish to undertake certain types of work. For example, they may not be willing to work with animal products or for a company associated with live animal exports. No claimant will be expected to take a job that was vacant as a result of a trade dispute.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

I thank the Minister for a lot of the detail that she is providing to us this afternoon. Can she just clarify the position? At the moment we have “just cause” and “good cause”, which have been reflected in some particular regulations and certainly in some guidance. I think that there are some commissioners’ decisions which flesh out the meaning of those terms. Are all of those precedents going to be swept away and not applied, or are they going to stay in being and be used to support the concept of “good reason”?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

Yes, they still apply.

The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, also asked about people with health conditions. These regulations do not change the requirements that are on claimants as of now. Through Jobcentre Plus and the work programme, we will provide claimants with health conditions with the personalised support that they need to overcome their barriers to employment. All requirements will take their health into account to ensure that they are not asked to do something which would be unreasonable.

The noble Baroness, Lady Turner of Camden, asked in her remarks about those disabled people who may be moving from DLA to JSA or a version of that under universal credit. Today, we are obviously concentrating on JSA, which is very different to DLA. However, I take on board the point that she makes about ensuring that people have a clear understanding of what is changing and how they are affected by those changes. That is certainly something which needs to be addressed.

[Baroness Turner of Camden]

I thank the Minister for that response, but what is the situation for appeals generally in relation to this legislation? People will miss out on benefits if they receive a decision stating that sanctions will apply to them? Is there any appeal mechanism here and, if so, what is it?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

There is no change in the appeal measure. I will come on to sanctions in a moment and give more specific information on appeals but the short answer to the question is “no change”. Safeguards were raised by the noble Lords, Lord McKenzie and Lord McAvoy, and the noble Baroness. I do not want to take up the Committee’s time as I clearly spelt out the safeguards in my opening remarks. They will be very much as they are now. That area will not change.

The noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, asked about people with mental health issues. The decision-makers will receive in-depth training to ensure that they are able to make the decisions that are required of them as they affect people with mental health issues. The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, asked whether a jobseeker’s period of sanction counting towards the 182 days contribution-based entitlement will be changed. No, because a person is still entitled to JSA during a sanction period. Therefore, entitlement continues for that 182 days, including any sanction.

I think that I have covered most of the points that have been made. The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, asked whether Jobcentre Plus has any targets for sanction referrals. I can say categorically that it does not. The noble Baroness, Lady Turner, asked about the appeal process, as did other noble Lords. Claimants may appeal any decision to reduce or stop their benefits arising from the First-tier Tribunal within one month of being notified of their sanction or disentitlement. Claimants can also ask Jobcentre Plus to reconsider the decision to sanction or disentitle. Jobcentre Plus will reconsider all decisions before any appeal so that only unresolved disputes have to go to an appeal hearing. Of course, we will ensure that all new claimants receive clear information about the sanctions regime and the appeal process.

I think that the noble Lord, Lord German, asked about ESA and whether the measure aligned JSA with universal credit. That will be introduced by a separate statutory instrument through the negative resolution procedure. It is not part of the measure that we are discussing. I take on board the points he made about the Printed Paper Office. I think that—

[Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope]

I apologise for interrupting the Minister, who is responding well to some difficult technical questions. I have a very important question concerning the universal credit pilots. I am sorry if I have not made this point clearly enough. I know that they are universal credit pilots, not JSA pilots. When those pilots are in being, will the department not just look at the effect of sanctions in terms of taking people off benefit but also carry out work to establish what effect sanctions have in getting people back into sustainable jobs? I think the answer to the question is yes, but will the department look at that when the pilots on universal credit are eventually rolled out in the fullness of time? It is a very important question.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

Yes, I can confirm that and I am pleased to be able to do so.

Before I conclude, I have some other small points to make. The noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, asked about admin costs and additional staff costs. They are of course part of an agreed budget, but I will certainly write to him with further details about that. He also asked whether the private sector would be able to impose sanctions, and the answer is no.

The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, asked how many sanctions were applied each year and was looking for the latest figures. I can tell him that in 2011-12 there were 4.7 million active jobseeker’s allowance claims and, of those, about 495,000 sanctions were imposed and there were about 161,000 disentitlements.

Several noble Lords—and I know that this was reinforced by the noble Lord, Lord Touhig—raised the point about the importance of DWP drawing a clear distinction between fraud and error. That is an important point and I take it on board. He also asked about claiming online. There will be opportunities to discuss universal credit when those regulations are debated, but at the moment this question is not relevant to the regulations before us today. I take on board the point that he is making but I do not have an answer to provide to him today.

[Lord Touhig]

I am grateful to the Minister and I understand that she is trying to cover everyone’s points, but the particular question that I wanted to ask was whether the alignment—the secondary legislation scrutiny committee’s report talks about the alignment of the sanctions with the three benefits, including the new one to come in, universal credit—will involve a requirement for people to claim JSA online. If that is the case, how many people currently claim online, and how many people do the Government expect to claim online when the full changes come in October 2013?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I hope that this answers the noble Lord’s question: you can claim for JSA online but it is not a requirement to do so, whereas the universal credit will be a digitally based process so that will be a different arrangement. So we are not requiring anyone to go online at this time.

I know that I have taken a lot of time to go through everyone’s questions, and forgive me for being perhaps less fluent than my noble friend Lord Freud would have been if he had been here, but I was keen to ensure that I covered the many details that had been raised. I would like to pick up a couple of small points that were made at the beginning of the debate. As I say, from my perspective it is vital that we have a regime that is fair and balanced and properly recognises the efforts that people make when they find themselves in the dreadful and unfortunate position of being out of work. However, we owe it not just to them but to everyone else who is working hard to ensure that there is a regime for those who, sadly, need the threat of a sanction to lead them to co-operate with the requirements of this benefit.

I say to the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, with regard to his comments about the tax regime, that, as my right honourable friend the Chancellor made clear in his speech today somewhere else, in every single year of this Parliament the rich will pay a greater share of our nation’s tax revenues than in every one of the 13 years for which Labour were in office. Forgive me for responding politically but I felt that it was only appropriate to do so, having had that point raised with me. I hope that the Committee feels able to support these regulations, and I commend them to the Committee.

Motion agreed.

Sport

Baroness Stowell of Beeston Excerpts

Monday 8th October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Giddens]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government how they will build on the success of British sport in summer 2012.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, I am sure the whole House will wish to join me in taking this opportunity to congratulate all our athletes who participated and won medals in the Olympic and Paralympic Games this summer, the wonderful volunteers who made the Games so special and everyone who contributed to the organisation of the Olympic and Paralympic Games.

The Government are committed to making sure that both the Olympic and Paralympic Games have a lasting legacy. Elite sport will receive £500 million over the next four years leading up to Rio. Grass-roots sport will benefit from £1 billion of investment to provide facilities and opportunities to take up sport. The UK will host a number of major sporting events and we will build upon the already successful School Games providing competitive sport in schools.

The legacy of the Games goes beyond sport and all parts of the Government will work together so that the UK as a whole takes advantage and reaps the benefit of what we achieved as a nation this summer.

[Lord Giddens]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for that response and echo her sentiments. Does she think that the sense of solidarity and national purpose which was so visible during the Olympics can be sustained or, possibly, extended? If so, how might that be achieved?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I agree with what the noble Lord has outlined as being part of the success of the Games this summer. I was very proud that my noble friend Lord Coe was at the Labour Party conference last week to pay tribute to Dame Tessa Jowell for everything she did as a Minister to ensure that we succeeded in getting the Games. He made the point very clearly that to build on the success of the Games—and as I said in my previous Answer this is not just about sport, although sport is hugely important and we need to build on it—we must continue that bipartisan and cross-party approach to make sure that we take all the available benefits.

[Baroness Grey-Thompson]

My Lords, given the huge number who have been inspired by the extraordinary Olympic and Paralympic Games this summer, could the Minister explain how good access for disabled children to PE in schools and mainstream clubs can be ensured? This is not just about continuing to develop an elite pathway—in which I declare an interest—but about changing the whole culture towards healthier lifestyles.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I would like to pay particular tribute to the noble Baroness for all the vital work she did in commentating on the Paralympics—I know she also did so on the Olympics—and helping to ensure that the rest of us properly understood what was being achieved.

It is not just disabled people who are inspired by what was achieved at the Paralympics: the rest of us were, too. We need to build on the success of the Olympics by ensuring that all stages of the sporting strategy, which has been covered in great detail in a ministerial Statement which is available in the Printed Paper Office today, integrate disabled sport at all levels. I was particularly pleased to learn that when Sport England confirms its next round of investment in national governing bodies in December, it will require, for the first time, delivery of specific targets for participation of disabled people.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Moynihan]

My Lords, I apologise for the earlier false start. In declaring my interest as the outgoing chairman of the British Olympic Association, may I thank noble Lords from all sides of this House for their consistent support for both the Olympic and Paralympic Games since we first debated them some seven years ago?

The challenge is now to turn inspiration into participation. Does the Minister agree that central to this objective is a priority focus on school sport and the establishment of new links between clubs, volunteers, governing bodies, primary, secondary and, indeed, independent schools?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My noble friend, to whom I owe a great deal of gratitude for everything he has done, is absolutely right, and I should make one small point. The Secretary of State for Education met representatives of some of the national governing bodies last week and is building on what is already known about in terms of strategy.

[Baroness Billingham]

I welcome for the first time today the face of the noble Baroness, Lady Stowell, at the Dispatch Box and I look forward to hearing from her frequently. I also pay tribute to her predecessor who worked so well at the Dispatch Box; we enjoyed listening to her. However, since they came to power, the coalition Government have cut the school sport budget by 69%. Now Michael Gove’s curriculum proposals threaten to tear the rest of the heart out of school sport by ignoring the fact that sport and physical education should be part of the core curriculum. We all know that to be good at sports you have to start young. That start, as we have just heard, has to be made in primary schools. How will the Government therefore follow up all the good will that is now engendered by the Olympics by ensuring that the very people we need to make that start in primary schools are given a fair and reasonable chance?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

Sport in schools is a vital part of our ongoing strategy for and commitment to sport, and I should just say to the noble Baroness that PE is a compulsory part of the national curriculum at all key stages of education. That is the only topic, in addition to maths, English and science, that we have made compulsory at this time.

Welfare Reform Bill

Baroness Stowell of Beeston Excerpts

Tuesday 13th September 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, I will limit my remarks to the parts of the Bill relating to the proposed universal credit and the benefits that it replaces. In doing so, I will focus in particular on the long-term unemployed.

I do not think it is an exaggeration to say that our benefits system is broken. Indeed, from the comments made by others today, it seems that many noble Lords agree. As it stands, it establishes dependency, destroys incentives to work and entrenches poverty. That is not good for the people who receive benefits, it is not good for the people who pay for them, and it does not say a lot for the political classes presiding over the system.

The evidence shows that public opinion about our benefits system does not divide along party lines. The simple fact is that too many people who get up every day to go to work see their neighbours and others who are like them in nearly every way except that they do not get up and go out to work because they do not think, apparently, that they have to. Allowing that to happen has had a profound impact on our society in several ways. We have diminished people's willingness to support a benefits system which needs to be there to care for the genuinely vulnerable and those who find themselves suddenly and temporarily out of work. We have provided a breeding ground for hostility towards people who make their way to the UK to take advantage of our broken benefits system. What is really bad about that, let us be clear, is that the people who suffer most from that hostility are those who come to the UK to work hard and want to contribute through their drive and ambition. What is really worrying is that we have also weakened people's belief in the democratic process itself because they look at us and see that we have allowed this to happen and go on for far too long.

When we get to the Committee stage, I hope that we do not lose sight of this bigger picture because the Bill—the new universal credit, the benefit cap, which I support, the work programme and the changes that will make work pay—may finally be the first step on the road to recovery. I say first step because, while I support the Bill, I see it as only a framework for us to build from. I know that some Lords might not agree with me, but I am pleased that much of the detail will be covered by regulations and secondary legislation because I am sure that we will need to experiment and trial different aspects of the Bill over the next few years. This applies particularly to the conditions and sanctions that we set and the way that we categorise claimants.

Some people get a bit windy on the topic of conditions and sanctions, but I genuinely do not understand why. If we accept, as I think we do, that people are only reacting rationally to this current system of welfare—some people are playing the system that we have created because they can, not because they are inherently bad—if we change the incentives so that it pays to work and we apply firm conditions and sanctions to the receipt of benefits so that they are not seen as a soft option, surely people will respond just as rationally. Why would they not? My concern is making sure that the conditions that we set go far enough so that they provoke a radical shift in rational behaviour.

During our scrutiny over the next few months, we will debate anomalies and we will want to mitigate the risk of unintended consequences. During this time, we will also hear of many hard cases. Of course, we must listen and make sure that the benefits system is able to respond to them with compassion and respect. However, let us not forget the old truth that hard cases make bad law. If we build the new system by using the exceptional as the benchmark for the average, the new system will be as broken as the current one and it will not help those it is intended to support.

The Bill gives us the opportunity to show people who have been on benefits for a long time that we want to help them and that we are serious about doing so. It gives us the opportunity to show that helping people means getting them to the point where they can earn their living and other people's respect. Indeed, anyone earning their living, in whatever kind of job, not only earns other people's respect but deserves it. Just as importantly, this Bill allows us, finally, to show those already trying hard to earn a decent living that they are the ones doing the right thing.

We need, of course, to combine welfare reform with economic growth, real jobs and better education for our children. I believe that this Bill is a big step towards correcting our welfare system, which has been broken for far too long. For that reason I support the Bill.