Health and Social Care Bill

Debate between Baroness Wall of New Barnet and Baroness Thornton

Wednesday 9th November 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Wall of New Barnet]

My Lords, I had not intended to participate in the debate because I did not arrive until it had started, but I have been here a long time now and want to share with people how it feels on the ground. What the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, said is absolutely true. I do not envy the noble Earl because I think that the analysis that the noble Lord, Lord Darzi, gave is exactly how it feels. There is that dilemma. The noble Baroness congratulated us on now having a decision from the Secretary of State. We do, but the decision is bound up in another clause, which brings about another kind of action that we must take. It has not removed anything; it has just given us another dilemma and delay in what we must do.

I say to the noble Lord, Lord Mawhinney, that I only wish that everybody in his position did what he did. Though I have five years of experience, I am not medically qualified; I am just somebody who cares about the people that I have responsibility for as the chair. My experience from those years was often of political interference. I ask noble Lords to forgive me for being emotive about this, but it is absolutely true. We had consultation for many years, authorised by the independent review body. The Secretary of State at the time, Alan Johnson, said, “Whatever the review body says, we will go with it”. That was perfect. Then we had a hold-up and a change of government. The new Secretary of State, Andrew Lansley, then came to our trust and said, “This isn’t going to happen. We want people on the ground to be able to say, ‘Yes, if I want this service, I can have it here, and, yes, if I want my baby here, I can have the baby here’”. Both those services were questionable in terms of their clinical reliability. They were not unsafe, because we would not be doing it otherwise, but certainly questionable. And so we started all over again.

A year later, we have gone through not a consultation but the four tests, where the clinical members of the local authority team went through the same process as was involved in the previous consultation—is it clinically safe or is it not? It took a year or so for the Secretary of State to come back with another response to that. That was another stall until, just a matter of weeks ago, we received a letter from the Secretary of State addressed to the local authority—because it had put the case to him—which said, “Yes, I think that the BEH strategy should go ahead, but, actually, I think that you should consider other things as well”. Those things cut right through the BEH strategy.

Local MPs are very open about the fact that they have interceded and expressed their views. They are very proud to say, “I’ve spoken to Andrew about this and I’m not going to have that”. This goes on all the time—I am not sure that this is inappropriate language to use in this House I ask your Lordships to forgive me if I am saying things that I should not; I am just trying to tell noble Lords what it feels like as somebody who is working in the health service on behalf of patients. That is how it feels. I do not know whether political interference by the Secretary of State, as I see it, can be removed by having the national Commissioning Board make the decisions, because my view would be that MPs will always go to whoever can make an intervention in Parliament. That goes for MPs from all parties; it is not about the present Government.

I do not envy the noble Earl in the decisions that he has to make about this, but the view of the noble Lord, Lord Darzi, is very much attuned to what I see in reality. There is a dilemma; there is that interference. But, on the other hand, there are major decisions that have to be made that can be made only by the Secretary of State in the sense of his or her national perspective. I have no words of wisdom, but I have a lot of feelings. Please can we get this right?

[Baroness Thornton]

My Lords, I have added my name to those opposing Clause 4. We have had a very good debate, to which my noble friends Lord Darzi and Lady Wall have brought an element of reality. However, their remarks do not take us from the point of wondering whether this is the right clause in terms of autonomy. They have both succeeded in pointing to the problem that exists, and I am not sure that the Bill solves it.

Autonomy, from the ancient Greek, means,

“one who gives oneself their own law … In medicine, respect for the autonomy of patients is an important goal … though it can conflict with a competing ethical principle, namely beneficence”.

It might be thought that a health and social care Bill would reflect the second part of the above definition—culled, I have to say, from Wikipedia—given the concern for the interests and dignity of patients. However, such is not the case. Clause 4 seeks to insert a new section into the National Health Service Act 2006 under the rubric: “The Secretary of State’s duty as to promoting autonomy”. The clause requires the Secretary of State when exercising functions in relation to the health service, so far they are consistent with the interests of the health service—not, it may be noted, in the interests of patients—to act with a view to securing certain things that the clause then goes on to list.

I had a discussion about this clause with the noble Baroness, Lady Murphy, yesterday or the day before. I say to her that the fact that we both seem to have completely different views of what this clause seeks to do actually tells us something about it and its drafting. We totally disagree about what we think this clause seeks to achieve. That alone should make us think that perhaps we need to go back to look at this clause.

Clause 4 places upon the Secretary of State a duty to promote autonomy, as we have said. We feel that this clause is part of the general shift of the Bill to denude the responsibilities of the Secretary of State, because—viewed alongside of the removal of the Secretary of State’s current powers under Section 8 of the 2006 Act to give directions to PCTs and SHAs—it significantly dilutes the Secretary of State’s powers to influence the provision of health services. Independent legal advice from Stephen Cragg QC, for example, commented on the consequences of Clause 4:

“If the Secretary of State attempts to use his or her powers to impose requirements on commissioning consortia, for example, then there could well be a judicial review challenge from a consortium which opposed the requirements on the basis that they infringed the principle of autonomy in the new Section 1C and could not be justified as necessary or essential. This approach replaces the, more or less, unfettered power that the Secretary of State has to make directions currently to be found in Section 8 of the NHS Act 2006 with a duty not to interfere unless essential to do so”.

The emphasis on autonomy links to the change in the role of the Secretary of State, as was explained wonderfully and adequately by the noble Lord, Lord Marks.

Since the founding of the NHS, the Secretary of State has always had powers of direction and intervention over NHS bodies, which enabled him or her to control the system. While some providers such as foundation trusts could be given earned autonomy—as was referred to by other noble Lords—the Secretary of State retained control through commissioning and the nature of contracts with foundation trusts.

This is a very important clause, and nothing that has been said in this debate makes me think that I was wrong to put my name on behalf of these Benches to the Question relating to clause standing part of the Bill. I appreciate that we will be having a broad discussion of these matters along with Clauses 10 and 1 but, unless the Minister has something very significant to say about how he sees this clause evolving, I absolutely have to agree with the noble Lord, Lord Marks, that this can come out of the Bill because of all the other powers that remain in it, which we will look at in due course.

Finally, I thank the Minister for his letter to me, which was circulated around the House. I thank him and his staff and the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, and her colleagues for the fact that we are finding a way forward to having a discussion which I hope and trust will bear fruit.