Her Late Majesty Queen Elizabeth II

Baroness Watkins of Tavistock Excerpts

Friday 9th September 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Watkins of Tavistock (CB)]

My Lords, it is an honour to contribute to these speeches recognising the value that Her Majesty the Queen gave this country. There are over half a million nurses in the UK and she met many of them. She had been patron of the Royal College of Nursing since 1953 and will be sorely missed. Her interest was great. She met many Florence Nightingale Foundation scholars—I am president of that foundation—and many of those scholars lead our NHS trusts and community services. She worked with the Queen’s Nursing Institute and always had a deep interest in nursing. She met so many nurses from so many different countries, backgrounds and faiths, and they all valued the discussions she had with them.

As I got more senior, I met the Queen on several occasions, but what she wanted senior nurses to do was to introduce her to the people who were working on the floor or in the community—and, obviously, sometimes to patients. At the end of the pandemic, she said she recognised that nurses had played a very important part in our pandemic response. Of course, over the years she visited palliative care centres and children’s centres, and after the Manchester bomb, she spoke to a variety of nurses and patients. She also had quite an interest, as I have, in homelessness and how healthcare was delivered there. That issue has now been taken up by His Royal Highness Prince William. I also remind noble Lords how brilliant she was with people in distress: she coped with somebody breaking into her bedroom and kept them calm. That is quite a challenge.

I join other members of my profession in remembering a role model who took the rough with the smooth. The Queen was interested in all her people’s welfare and was fair and polite to everybody she came into contact with. I will just say that, although she did not know it was me, exactly 49 years ago I was a second-year student at the Westminster Hospital at a time when, on the whole, her staff and friends were admitted to the Westminster Hospital if they were not well. I was working in theatre and, in theatre, if you had been on night duty, you had to go down in the morning and collect the blood from the basement and bring it up to the theatres. You had to do that separately, so you did not muddle blood for different theatres. There were only two lifts: one for emergencies and the other for ordinary behaviour.

We were told at 6 am that nobody was to use the routine lift until 7 am, but I had the blood to collect, so I had several journeys down eight sets of stairs, because theatre was at the top and blood was in the basement. At 7.02 am, I was on my last trip and I thought, “Great, I can get into the lift.” So I pressed for the lift in the basement, it opened and there was our matron, whose name I can remember, with the Queen, who had overrun visiting a member of her staff. I stood with two bags of blood in each hand, curtsied, stood back and out of the lift they got. She just smiled at me—so many noble Lords have mentioned that smile. I spent the next 72 hours expecting to be called for by the matron. That did not happen and I am pretty convinced it was because the Queen probably laughed once she walked away from me.

I join others in sending my condolences to His Majesty King Charles III, his sons and his wife, the Queen Consort, Camilla, who I trust will support and comfort him throughout his reign in the way the Queen was supported by Prince Philip.

Cost of Living: Low Income Families with Children

Baroness Watkins of Tavistock Excerpts

Wednesday 13th July 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stedman-Scott (Con)]

I accept that families are struggling and that some are desperate. We have tried to make the process of giving the money we are giving as simple and unbureaucratic as possible. That is why we are making the payments as we are, starting this week, I think. We hope to have them all done by the end of July.

[Baroness Watkins of Tavistock (CB)]

My Lords, can the Minister be precise about what families will get during the coming summer holidays, given that free school meals cease for most children next Friday?

[Baroness Stedman-Scott (Con)]

On free school meals, children will get what we have already announced. We are not proposing to increase free school meals rates to reflect rising inflation at the moment. They will get their holiday breakfast clubs and the support we have previously announced.

Queen’s Speech

Baroness Watkins of Tavistock Excerpts

Tuesday 17th May 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Watkins of Tavistock (CB)]

My Lords, I am delighted to speak in this debate on the humble Address and draw attention to my interests in the register, particularly those in relation to nursing. I welcome Her Majesty’s Government’s commitments to publishing draft legislation to reform the Mental Health Act. The White Paper sets out proposals to amend criteria for detention under Section 3, excluding people with a learning disability and people with autism unless detention is for treatment of a co-existing mental disorder.

Efforts to reduce detention and so-called warehousing of people with a learning disability have received broad support—understandably so given that, in March 2022, 57% of in-patients with learning disabilities and/or autism had been in hospital for more than two years. However, we need assurance from Her Majesty’s Government that, when the Act is reformed, the rights and needs of patients detained under Section 3 without a diagnosed mental illness will be protected and that, in the absence of safe discharge, continued holding in hospital will not simply be transferred under the frame- work of the Mental Capacity Act.

The Queen’s Speech made fleeting reference to supporting the NHS, and none to supporting social care to manage already pressured services. However, greater investment is absolutely essential. The White Paper proposed a duty on commissioners that requires

“adequate supply of community services”.

Such a legal requirement must be accompanied with sufficient resource to support the mobilisation of service and development of workforce.

The need for improved community support spans different populations, including people living with dementia, which leads me, like others, to ask: when do the Government intend to publish the national dementia strategy? Briefings received from carers’ associations are questioning whether the Government intend to ensure carers’ rights to a minimum of one week’s unpaid care leave. Other noble Lords have spoken on this more eloquently than me. My important point is that supporting carers will reduce unnecessary admissions to hospital and be cost effective.

Leaders in the NHS have made it clear that investment in community services is vital, both to reduce the unsustainable pressures on in-patient services and to provide dignified care in people’s homes. I believe that a minimum wage for social care workers delivering personal care is essential. Do the Government intend to introduce a national minimum wage for personal social care workers and to fund time for travel between their clients’ homes?

Coming, as I do, from a rural village near Tavistock on Dartmoor, it is almost impossible to plan a care worker’s rota without at least 20 minutes of travel between their clients. Central government allocations to local authorities from the levy should have sufficient resources to let contracts that enable payment for travel time.

The new health and social care levy is widely supported by the population. This is in effect a hypothecated tax that the public expect to improve seamless health and social care. Recent reports about standards in some independent care providers where NHS contracts are delivered cause particular concern. Can the Minister advise the House what requirements there will be for ILACS to monitor contracts it lets—for example, in mental health—in addition to CQC monitoring and inspections? It is necessary to take a whole-systems approach that recognises the pressures all areas of care are suffering from and focuses on reducing inequality in delivery. How will the Government ensure a fully funded workforce plan so that we have sufficient competent staff to meet demand for care?

I will speak briefly on the issue that my noble friend Lord Laming wanted to raise. What are the Government’s intentions on tracing the estimated 135,000 “ghost children” who have not returned to school after lockdown? If every child matters equally, there is a child protection issue at stake here. How do the Government intend to ensure the regular attendance in school of all children to promote equitable opportunity for lifelong success?

It is vital that young people going to university who leave with significant debt feel valued in the workplace. We must stop hammering our young. I reiterate a previous request: will the Government consider writing off student fee debt for at least five years for graduates who work in a range of public services where face-to-face contact is essential? These graduates appear to be at significant disadvantage compared with those in the independent sector, where salaries have risen to reflect the cost of regular student loan repayments.

FCDO Nutrition Policy

Baroness Watkins of Tavistock Excerpts

Monday 21st February 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I bow to my noble friend’s expertise in this area and totally concur with him. When one travels the world and sees the challenges of famine—I think the latest UN estimate was that 223 million people will face acute food shortages and insecurity—one sees that global actions on fighting famine and looking at dietary-specific solutions are a vital part of our work.

[Baroness Watkins of Tavistock (CB)]

My Lords, could the Minister say what further investment there will be in women’s secondary education, which is closely linked to preventing an increase in population numbers and improving the nutrition of children who are already alive?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary has put the whole issue of women and girls very much at the heart of our work. The noble Baroness will be aware of our commitments through the Global Education Summit. We currently provide £430 million for girls’ education. There was an earlier question on the World Health Organization; we are working with the WHO on fulfilling its recommendations about breastfeeding within an hour of birth and nutritionally adequate and safe complementary feeding methods. These are part of our quite extensive programmes, working both with international agencies and partners and bilaterally in support of development programmes focused on girls and women around the world.

Cost of Living

Baroness Watkins of Tavistock Excerpts

Tuesday 12th October 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stedman-Scott]

Let me finish. I am not able to say what might happen but the ideas that my noble friend has put forward are in the melting pot. As for in-work progression, a lot is going on and the labour market should make it really possible for people who can work to work more and earn more.

[Baroness Watkins of Tavistock (CB)]

My Lords, will the Minister return to her department and request that, at the very least, free school meals are accounted for over the summer and Easter holidays by additional payments to families in need, so that students who have suffered so badly through Covid can study on a full stomach over their holiday periods?

[Baroness Stedman-Scott (Con)]

The noble Baroness makes a good point. I will take that straight back to the department and do as she requests.

Human Rights Situation in India

Baroness Watkins of Tavistock Excerpts

Thursday 22nd July 2021 Grand Committee

[Lord Harries of Pentregarth (CB) [V]]

My Lords, I have enormous admiration for the people of India, especially for the resilience and sheer joy shown by so many of them even when living in dire poverty. I recognise the early birth of its culture 4,500 years ago in the Indus valley, and note the brilliant contribution of Indians in the fields of mathematics and astronomy over many centuries. I appreciate the long tradition of public debate and intellectual pluralism in India, as illustrated by Amartya Sen in his wonderful book, The Argumentative Indian. I marvel at the way in which a country of 1.4 billion people can hold democratic elections in which nearly 70% of the people vote. I also believe that many aspects of British policy and behaviour during the imperial period are deeply shaming. As Gandhi responded when asked what he thought of western civilisation, “It would be nice”.

So it is with real sadness that I have to bring this Question before the Committee this afternoon, sadness that, over the past few years, India has joined the growing list of countries that have combined an increasingly autocratic rule, an appeal to a narrow nationalism and a denial of fundamental human rights.

Fundamental to human rights and the long tradition of Indian public debate and intellectual pluralism is academic freedom. There are now numerous reports showing how this in increasingly under threat, with academics who hold views that the Indian Government do not like being put under pressure to resign, and with permission from the Government now being required to hold an international webinar if it relates to certain sensitive subjects. A recent headline in an Indian newspaper asked, “Is academic freedom any longer viable?” Another cited what can happen even in a privately funded Ivy League-equivalent university such as Ashoka. When Pratap Bhanu Mehta was pressured to resign, he said:

“After a meeting with founders it has become abundantly clear to me that my association with the University may be considered a political liability. My public writing in support of a politics that tries to honour constitutional values of freedom and equal respect for all citizens, is perceived to carry risks for the university.”


I should also mention journalists. Between 2010 and 2020, 150 were arrested, detained and interrogated, 67 in 2020 alone.

NGOs—in India, they are called civil society organisations—are another group being put under great pressure. Even before Covid, they were finding it difficult to obtain visas. Since Covid, they have been harassed by new laws against protesters, and some have had their bank accounts frozen. So serious is this that Amnesty International, for example, has had to stop its work in India.

A no less serious cause for concern is the position of Muslims. There are some 200 million Muslims in India—about 14% of the population. One recent survey revealed that 35% of Muslims in north-east India said that they had experienced discrimination over the past year and were now adopting a survival strategy in the realisation that an anti-Muslim Hindutva policy was now the dominant narrative.

Christianity in India is not a western import. Christians have been there for 2,000 years, and were certainly well established in Kerala by the sixth century. There are 28 million Christians in India—about 2.3% of the population. They, too, are suffering from the present Hindutva policies. Their stigma is increased not only by the fact that they are not Hindu but because they are sometimes regarded—quite wrongly—as a legacy of western imperialism and because many of them are Dalits who converted to Christianity, as others converted to Buddhism, partly to escape the stigma of being treated as untouchable.

So I come to the Dalits and other marginalised groups, such as the tribal peoples. It must be emphasised that the Indian constitution is in many ways admirable, in particular its emphasis on equality for all India’s diverse peoples. Its architect was the polymath, scholar and jurist Dr Ambedkar, who was recently honoured by having a new portrait unveiled at Gray’s Inn, where he studied. He was born into a family of what were then referred to as untouchables in 1891, and wrote:

“Untouchability is far worse than slavery, for the latter may be abolished by statute. It will take more than a law to remove the stigma from the people of India. Nothing less than the aroused opinion of the world can do it.”


His constitution was a step towards achieving that but, despite that constitution, Dalits continue to suffer disproportionately by every indicator. The policies and practices of the present reveal that the stigma is still there and being reinforced.

When it comes to access to clean water and sanitation, Dalits lag far behind; when it comes to access to education and health, again they are disproportionately failed. The conscience of India can rightly be aroused when a student on a bus in Delhi is abducted, raped and murdered—as happened not long ago—but rapes of young Dalit girls in isolated villages happen frequently and get very little publicity. A high proportion of Dalits are bonded or day labourers—groups who are particularly vulnerable to violence. It is particularly distressing when Dalits try to get justice for some outrage and, again and again, fail to achieve it. A Dalit Christian village might be burned, as has happened, and the perpetrators known, but justice is delayed and delayed.

At the moment, more than 24 Dalit rights activists are in jail on unproven charges, including 80 year-old poet Varavara Rao and, until he died on 5 July, 83 year- old Jesuit priest Father Stan Swamy. Father Swamy spent nine months in jail under the anti-terror law, the Unlawful Activities (Prevention) Act, was denied bail and medical care and was transferred to a hospital only when his condition became critical. At the time of his arrest, Stan Swamy was already suffering from Parkinson’s disease, significant loss of hearing in both ears and other serious underlying health issues. His death in custody and the continued incarceration of other defenders is a tragic indictment of India’s human rights record and the global community’s human rights commitments. India sits on the United Nations Human Rights Council and the United Nations Security Council, which carry specific human rights commitments.

As I said at the beginning, it is a real sadness to note what is happening in India today. I believe that all true friends of India should protest about this and make it clear to the Mr Modi that this is a denial of what is best in Indian culture and is totally unacceptable. I know the Minister very much shares this concern about human rights, and I look forward to hearing from him about the action that Her Majesty’s Government are taking. I beg to move.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Watkins of Tavistock) (CB)]

I call the noble Lord, Lord Parekh. I regret we cannot hear you, Lord Parekh. If you are on mute, could you unmute yourself? I call the noble Lord, Lord Parekh, again. We can hear you now.

Environment Bill

Baroness Watkins of Tavistock Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 14th July 2021 Lords Chamber

I hope I have reassured noble Lords that the Government are committed to making serious progress in relation to the remote electronic monitoring of fishing vessels. I ask the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Watkins of Tavistock) (CB)]

I call the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, who wants to ask a question before proceeding.

[Lord Teverson (LD) [V]]

I thank the Minister for that good reply. I will sum up in just a second but I have a specific question. He said, and I take some encouragement from this, that he wanted to “move at pace”. When will we next hear back from the Government about what they are going to do specifically on REM and, hopefully, how they are going to apply the method of data collection?

--- Later in debate ---

Schedule 16 agreed.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Watkins of Tavistock) (CB)]

We now come to the group beginning with Amendment 266. Anyone wishing to press this or anything else in this group to a Division must make that clear in the debate.

Clause 110: Conservation covenant agreements

Amendment 266

Moved by

Environment Bill

Baroness Watkins of Tavistock Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 12th July 2021 Lords Chamber

I support this amendment very strongly, but may I ask Hansard just to stop reporting for a minute? I have an environmental confession to make. I used to be in the freight industry and I operated a transport depot very near to where my noble friend Lady Bakewell lives at the moment, on the Somerset Levels in a place called Bridgwater—that is Bridgwater in Somerset, where you do not have an “E” in the middle of the word; if you put one in, it is very bad. One thing that I used to transport was cut peat for horticultural purposes out of the Somerset Levels. I apologise to my colleague that I ever did that; it was before such things were even realised. But now we have no excuse for that sort of commercial activity. On that basis, I give complete personal backing to Amendment 283 from the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Watkins of Tavistock) (CB)]

The noble Baroness, Lady Bennett of Manor Castle, has withdrawn from this set of amendments, so I call the noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard.

[Viscount Trenchard (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Kerslake, that decisions on the felling of roadside trees should remain a matter for local determination, and I support Amendment 257E. It is right that the Secretary of State should have to consult extensively with local authorities before he issues guidance on a public consultation, as provided for in Clause 108, which adds a new section to the Highways Act 1980. There is a risk that the new duty will be too bureaucratic, and care should be taken to ensure that any guidance issued does not encourage that.

I also support the noble Lord in his Amendment 257F, which allows local authorities to decide which exemptions there should be to the new duty to consult before felling any roadside trees. Councils should be free to take quick action to protect the public from harm, including against the spread of pests and diseases. Councils do not always get these things right, however, and the Committee may remember the outcry when South Tyneside Council cut down six horse chestnut trees to prevent children gathering conkers in 2004. At the time, my noble friend Lord Callanan was MEP for the north-east, and he described the pruning as

“the nanny state gone mad.”

He said that:

“In years gone by people didn’t try to rule lives in quite the same way as this. I wonder if the council will follow this to its natural conclusion and cut down all the trees in South Tyneside so that children won’t hurt themselves climbing up them.”


I hope that any guidance issued by the Secretary of State with regard to the felling of trees would aim to discourage councils from taking such disproportionate action to prevent the citizen from each and every risk he undertakes when he passes his garden gate.

As for Amendment 258 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Young of Old Scone, I think it may be unnecessary, because ancient woodland sites worthy of protection are already included within the category of sites of special scientific interest. I cannot see any sufficient reason to create a separate category of land— ancient woodland—which, as the amendment is drafted, does not even need to be of special scientific interest to qualify for Natural England’s protection.

I am not sure that I can support Amendment 259, also in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Young. I understand that they think that a policy of diversity and freedom of movement, as far as flora and fauna are concerned, could introduce unwanted tree diseases, but could it not equally prevent the importing of other tree species with genetic resistance to diseases? What would Capability Brown and Humphry Repton have achieved without the exotic cedar of Lebanon or the magnificent Wellingtonia? I confess that I am sceptical about whether the Secretary of State’s adoption of a “biosecurity standard” would actually have a positive impact on the natural environment.

I have some sympathy with the noble Baroness, Lady Young, in her Amendment 260, because the tree strategy is perhaps too modest in its aim to raise England’s woodland cover from 10% to just 12% by 2050. The Conservative Party’s manifesto commitment was to plant 30,000 hectares of trees a year across the UK by 2025. It is therefore impossible to measure the extent to which the tree strategy meets the manifesto commitment, which sadly shows yet another instance where the devolved authorities will not, but should, co-operate together to agree on a single national tree strategy.

Sir William Worsley, chairman of the Forestry Commission, has said that it will work with the devolved Administrations to deliver a UK-wide step change in tree planting and establishment. I am not sure whether the England trees action plan is exactly the same as the proposed “Tree Strategy for England” from the noble Baroness, but given the number of statutory targets proposed in the Bill, the absence of one for trees seems to stand out. I look forward to hearing my noble friend the Minister’s views on this.

I also sympathise with Amendment 260A, in the names of the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, my noble friends Lord Colgrain and Lord Caithness, and the noble Baroness, Lady Young. However, I am not quite sure how the standard would actually work. As the Committee is aware, deer and grey squirrels, among other species, can cause great damage to young trees. I worry that the Animal Welfare (Sentience) Bill, now before your Lordships’ House, may become a medium for increasing restrictions on the control and culling of animals that cause damage to young trees. Does my noble friend the Minister recognise that the entire countryside and farming community would applaud him if he and my noble friend Lord Benyon were to make the sensible decision to withdraw that Bill and use the available parliamentary time to better effect?

Lastly, I will comment on Amendment 283, in the names of the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, and others. First, its heading refers to the burning of peat, but the text of subsection (1) refers to the burning of vegetation on peatland. As has been pointed out, the two are very different. The prohibition of the rotational burning of heather is likely to increase the burning of peat because old, dry heather is very susceptible to uncontrolled wildfires in the summer months, which are much more likely to lead to the burning of peat. My experience of assisting my father in managing moorland in Angus, in the 1960s, 1970s and 1980s, showed that the rotational burning of heather is hugely beneficial to biodiversity. Moorland where this is practised sustains much greater numbers of butterflies, caterpillars, hen harriers, golden plover, black game and short-eared owls, besides the obvious higher numbers of red grouse.

Could the Minister confirm his remark on 18 March, that the Government will

“continue to listen to the science and keep our policy and our minds open”?—[Official Report, 18/3/21; col. 529.]

In any event, I cannot support this amendment, which I think would have an effect that is the reverse of its mover’s intent.

Environment Bill

Baroness Watkins of Tavistock Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 7th July 2021 Lords Chamber

Clause 92 agreed.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Watkins of Tavistock) (CB)]

We now come to the group beginning with Amendment 194B. Anyone wishing to press this or anything else in this group to a Division must make that clear in debate.

Amendment 194B

Moved by

Environment Bill

Baroness Watkins of Tavistock Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 5th July 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Faulkner of Worcester (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I shall speak to my Amendment 279, which is grouped with the amendments in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley. I tabled it with noble Lords from across the Chamber, the noble Lords, Lord Forsyth of Drumlean and Lord Bradshaw, and the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, because we believe that the members of the heritage steam alliance—heritage railways, steam boats and ships, steam road vehicles, engineering museums and historic houses—are entitled to have confirmed the guarantee given by the noble Lord, Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park, in a private meeting on 25 May and repeated by him at Second Reading on 7 June, that they will be permitted to continue to burn coal. That guarantee should be placed in the Bill and enshrined in the Act when it finally passes.

At Second Reading, the noble Lord said:

“The Government are very confident, as am I, that heritage railways will continue to operate, because although our electricity systems will no longer rely on coal, it can still be used by a range of industries that need it”.—[Official Report, 7/6/21; col. 1306.]


In our meeting a fortnight earlier, he said that banning heritage coal use would be a disproportionate response to the clean air and climate change agendas and would damage the great cultural and economic value of the steam sector to our tourism economy. There is no need for me make again my Second Reading speech about the value of the heritage rail sector and other aspects of the heritage steam alliance to tourism and the regional economy in particular. I simply make the point that all Amendment 279 does is to put it beyond any doubt that the assurances Ministers have repeatedly given us that the heritage steam sector will remain in being have the force of law and cannot be reversed without fresh primary legislation.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Watkins of Tavistock) (CB)]

The noble Baroness, Lady Bennett of Manor Castle, has withdrawn, so I call the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

My Lords, like all noble Lords, I support this Bill in the round. Having said that, it contains hints of an ugly intolerance; it sometimes gives the impression that those responsible for it know all the answers. A more open attitude would pay dividends and avoid error. After all, a short while ago, some of the same people were confidently and wrongly demanding that we all switch to diesel engines. The truth is that science evolves and new discoveries are made all the time. Humility in scientific matters is essential.

My concern in this group is with a small matter, economically speaking, where I fear an error could be made. It matters because this Bill could bring about the death of Thomas the Tank Engine and his or her nautical steamboat equivalent. Noble Lords will recall my repeated requests for cost-benefit analyses and my concern about the perverse effects of legislation, however important and well intentioned. I rarely receive a satisfactory answer, but that does not mean the request was not valid.

By making it impossible in practice to use British coal for heritage trains, boats and steam engines, we would, I fear, be consigning them in time to the scrap heap. This is unjustified. It is not in the spirit of reuse and recycle, which some of us supported earlier in Committee. Without a small exemption for the use of coal sourced in the UK, we will be importing coal from elsewhere. This would be worse for climate change, as you would have travel emissions as well as the impact of coal use. Also, as the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, explained to me this morning—we often agree across the political divide—we are talking about small and often impecunious operators who need one or two suppliers to source, pay for and distribute this coal. What supplier would think of taking that risk if it had to be imported from Russia?

Alternatively, of course, we will be consigning these heritage vehicles to a sad death. That would lead to a loss of tourist engagement and income as travellers move elsewhere, often overseas by air. The rotting of the vehicles and railways would create its own waste pile, and the whole dismal process would be a wholly unnecessary and self-inflicted harm and error. As is often said by our Green colleagues—I am sorry that they are not here this evening—we must look in the round at these resource issues. I am very hopeful that my noble friend the Minister will listen to the concerns expressed by me and others and propose a suitable amendment on Report. Like others, I support Amendment 279.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, for his amendments, and I thank other noble Lords who have participated in this debate. Regarding Amendments 157 and 158, I assure the noble Lord that the Government’s intention in Clause 73 is to ensure that polluting vehicles and non-road mobile machinery not meeting environmental standards will be taken off our roads and brought back into compliance. The policy was designed for motor vehicles, their components and non-road mobile machinery, and it was designed in line with the regulatory framework governing their environmental standards.

In response to the concerns of the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, and the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, this is analogous to an equivalent power in relation to safety standards—so, yes, vehicles can be recalled by manufacturers long after they have been on the road if we find that they are not compliant with the relevant environment regulations. Specifically to the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, this power could be used to recall vehicles that do not meet the standard that they should have met when they were originally authorised for sale, not standards that have since come in. However, I shall write on the detail of what we should put in those regulations.

In response to the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, I should say that all recalls will be fully funded by the manufacturer, and there will be provision for the Government to compel the manufacturer to pay compensation to the owner. I am also pleased to confirm that train engines, as outlined in the amendment, could be recalled under the legislation as drafted without these amendments.

The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, and others mentioned the incentive to cheat. Increasing the scope to include aircraft and ships would add significant complexity to this regime. These would also be outside the remit and expertise of the intended enforcement authority, the Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency, and would not be within the scope of the Bill nor necessary to achieve the wider policy aims. I reassure noble Lords that there are already robust systems in place to ensure that aircraft and ships comply with environmental standards. Compliance for marine engines already exists through our enforcement of requirements under the International Convention for the Prevention of Pollution from Ships. Civil aircraft are required to meet the environmental certification standards of the International Civil Aviation Organization before they are allowed to operate. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, that biomass may not be the way forward to fuelling aircraft but, as the noble Lord, Lord Khan, said, we must encourage research into alternative fuels.

The noble Lord, Lord Lucas, brought up something that is really rather out of scope of the Bill—cement. It is indeed a heavy carbon emitter, but I am aware of really innovative and attractive solutions being worked up in the private sector that could in time transform heavily carbon-emitting cement.

I move on to Amendment 159. The legislation specifically enables the Government to recall the engine of non-road mobile machinery if it is found not to comply with environmental standards. Again, I want to be clear for the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, that his amendment would fall within the definition of non-road mobile machinery, termed “machinery that is transportable” in the Bill, and would already be subject to the proposed recall regime. I thank the noble Lord for his contributions, and I agree with him that it is important to ensure that all vehicles are properly regulated, especially in relation to emissions in air quality. I hope that I have provided reassurance that this is the case such that he will not press his amendments.

I turn to Amendment 279 from the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner. The Government understand the important contribution that the heritage sector makes to our national culture, and I appreciate the concerns raised by the noble Lord and others who have participated in this debate. I can confirm for noble Lords that heritage vehicles are not within the scope of the legislation, and that includes trains and boats. As for historic buildings, I confirm that local authorities, when declaring a smoke control area under Section 18 of the Clean Air Act 1993, have the power to exempt specific buildings or classes of buildings under Section 18(2)(c) of that Act. They could exempt specific historic houses or historic houses in general from the requirements applying to the smoke control area. The Bill will not impinge on that ability. We listened to the concerns raised by the heritage bodies during consultation on the measures, as well as engaging with the inquiries of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Heritage Rail. I can confirm that there will be no direct impact on the heritage steam sector as a result of this Bill. The Government do not intend to bring forward policy that would have a direct impact on it.

I reiterate that I understand the concerns raised by the noble Lord. I thank him for the recent discussion that he and others, including my noble friend Lord Forsyth, had with my noble friend the Minister on this issue. The Minister and his officials are happy to continue to engage with him as guidance is developed. I hope that the assurances that I have set out at the Dispatch Box are persuasive and that I am able to reassure noble Lords about the Government’s view about the importance of the heritage sector and that nothing in this Bill will impact on it. I hope that the noble Lord withdraws his amendment.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Watkins of Tavistock) (CB)]

I have had one request to speak after the Minister, so I call the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth of Drumlean.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, I am very grateful to the Minister for her assurances in respect of the amendment concerning steam-powered vehicles. I declare an interest as president of the Steam Boat Association of Great Britain and as the owner of a steamboat. Can the Minister explain why she is not prepared to put in the Bill the exemption for historic vehicles of the kind to which she says the Government are committed?

I was very grateful to my noble friend Lord Goldsmith for agreeing to a meeting with the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, myself and others where he gave that assurance. However, Ministers are here one day and gone the next—indeed, they can be here one afternoon and gone by evening. It is not enough, despite Pepper v Hart, just to have an assurance from the Dispatch Box. We are dealing here with a major industry. I was on a steam train on Friday, the Jacobite Steam Train that runs from Fort William to Mallaig. It was absolutely packed with people—and not all of them were tourists; there were also people from the UK. At every point along that journey where it was possible for people to gather, they did so in order to wave at the steam engine; you could see the smiles on their faces. It is not a lot to ask of the Government to make it absolutely clear that there will be an exemption for these important vehicles.

There are some 400 steamboats in the country that regularly go to events and gatherings. They support an industry and skills that would otherwise die. We are the leading makers of steam engines in the world, with people such as Roger Mallinson and others. The costs of operation are enormous, many of them supported by volunteers for heritage railways and their kind. There are hundreds of thousands of pounds invested in steam traction engines, which we see at every country fair, and in their maintenance. It is important that people have the assurance of primary legislation, especially when we see so much legislation that contains powers for Ministers under Henry VIII clauses, pretty well to do as they like, and which this House can do nothing about by tradition because we do not vote against secondary legislation. Will the Minister say why the Government are resistant to putting a clear commitment in the Bill that heritage vehicles not only are not within the scope of the Bill but are protected from the whims of any Minister?

After all, it was only a few years ago when Michael Gove announced that all coal was going to be banned in households, which has wiped out both coal merchants and the distribution system. It meant that, on Friday, when I asked the driver of the steam engine that I was on where he got his coal from, he said, “We’re having to get our coal from Russia now. That is where we get it from.” I asked, “How much coal does your steam engine burn?” and he said, “Three and a half tonnes a day, and there are two of them and there are many like them.” I find it very difficult to understand how it is protecting the environment to bring coal in on ships and then trying to find a new distribution system to those vehicles. I urge the Minister, as was put so eloquently, to recognise the cultural importance of this and not throw the baby out with the bath water.