Regional Arts Facilities

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall

Wednesday 27th March 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab)]

My Lords—

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

My Lords, we have a bit of an impasse. Could we hear from the Conservative Benches and then the Labour Benches?

Business of the House

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall

Thursday 8th June 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

The noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, shakes her head at literally everything, but this is in the Companion. Unless noble Lords want to change the Companion, it remains there.

I was also accused of detaining the House. The House detained the House, because, on the point of the repetition of argument, it was the Committee’s decision to keep making the same arguments again and again.

On the point about the usual channels, I was planning to speak to the usual channels 23 minutes ago, but I accommodated the Liberal Democrat Chief Whip, and we will speak later.

My noble friend Lord Lexden is a national treasure. He sat here for hours, without complaint, because that is the sort of professional that he is.

On the point raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, about the impact assessment, I will certainly take that back. I will speak to the Minister and we will do what we can.

The most important thing I will take away is about communication with the people who support the running of this House.

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab)]

Although I am sure that the noble Baroness has made some extremely valuable points, could she respond to the question that was put to her by several noble Lords on the subject of what the plans are for similarly late sittings in the future?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

I think that my first point answered that: the Government will get their priority business through.

Civil Servants: Reduction in Numbers

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall

Wednesday 15th June 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

I really do not know the details of those figures, but I can find out for my noble friend.

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister has referred several times to—or implied—an idea of planning the way that Civil Service numbers might be reduced. It is not clear to most of us whether there actually is a plan, but there is a number: 10%. Can she say what the magic of 10% is, and what the significance of 2016 is?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

I think 2016 is when some of those numbers went up. The noble Baroness homes in on the point that planning is vital, and the health of the future workforce and the department’s ability to deliver depends on how we do those reductions. I have been involved in some of that work thus far.

Refugees and Asylum Seekers

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall

Monday 28th February 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

I commend so much what the noble Lord has said. At the heart of any Government with a heart will be those children who are displaced.

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab)]

My Lords, in an earlier answer the Minister asserted, no doubt rightly, that the Government had consulted with the UNHCR, and by implication with other people, before bringing forward the legislation we are to consider later today. Can she give the House any examples of ways in which the Government’s original intentions for this legislation were changed or modified as a result of those consultations?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

Obviously, I will not go into the details of individual conversations, but we consulted with the UNHCR, as would be expected. Clearly, we did not come to the same conclusion as the UNHCR.

Hate Crimes: Misogyny

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall

Monday 6th December 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

The noble and learned Baroness is absolutely right, and we look forward to the Law Commission’s recommendations in this area.

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab)]

My Lords, building on the response that the Minister gave to my noble friend Lady Blower, could she say what actions her colleagues in the Department for Education have taken following the Everyone’s Invited website and the emergence of very powerful evidence of the kind of thing that my noble friend was talking about?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

I am not particularly equipped to talk about Everyone’s Invited, but I will go back to the point that was made, which the noble Baroness is following up on, which is that respect for other people, whether of the same or opposite sex, is incredibly important in a civilised society, and we all need to lead by example.

Domestic Abuse Bill

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall

Report stage
Wednesday 10th March 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Burt, is absolutely right to say that peace has broken out, but I do not think that your Lordships were ever at war. We have all been seeking the same ends. This has been a good and succinct debate—long may that last—and from what several noble Lords have said I know that they will keep a close eye on developments over the next few months.

The noble Baronesses, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb and Lady Primarolo, made specific points about perpetrators being brought to book and that victims should be able to stay in their own home. The importance of community-based services for the victims of domestic abuse and their children is unquestionable. We share noble Lords’ ambitions to see all the victims of this terrible crime being supported.

It might assist the House if I briefly recap the Government’s reasoning on why now is not the appropriate time to legislate on this issue. I shall return to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt. The current landscape is complex. Unlike accommodation-based services, those in the community are funded and commissioned not only by PCCs but by local authorities and clinical commissioning groups. Further, as another noble Lord said, the third sector is prominently involved in this. Introducing an undeveloped statutory duty in the Bill would run the risk of cementing in legislation a complex landscape that we are working hard to simplify. Equally, placing the duty on only one of these public bodies would be to risk legislating for responsibility in the wrong place. This is far too important an issue on which to legislate in a rush.

Several noble Lords, including the noble Lords, Lord Hunt and Lord Russell, the noble Baronesses, Lady Primarolo and Lady Burt of Solihull, and my noble friend Lady McIntosh talked about the funding behind this, which is crucial. In fact, it has gone to the heart of the position taken by the Government. We must understand fully the cost of such a duty before we can implement it. The MHCLG duty has been funded at a cost of £125 million, so any action around community-based services must be funded appropriately. As I have said, significant government funding is already provided for these services, with an additional £17.7 million for them having been announced only last month. The results of this funding will be a further crucial piece of information to help us understand further need. I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb, and others that funding for the commissioner also has to be in place.

The noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, asked about the position in Wales and Amendment 17 placing a duty on the domestic abuse commissioner to prepare and publish a report under Clause 8 on the provision of domestic abuse services in England. As with the provision made in Part 4, we have limited the duty to the provision of these community-based services in England in recognition that generally we are dealing here with devolved matters in Wales. However, the noble Baroness is absolutely right to ask the question. We recognise the concerns raised by noble Lords, which is why we have tabled amendments to demonstrate our commitments in this space.

The statutory duty on the domestic abuse commissioner to publish and lay before Parliament the Clause 8 report on the provision of and need for community-based support services, and the statutory duty on tier 1 local authorities to monitor and report on the safe accommodation duty on the provision of community-based support in their area, will together ensure that the Government have all the information they need to protect and support safe accommodation and services in the community. In addition, I have committed today to consulting this summer on a statutory duty around community-based services in the upcoming victims’ law consultation. This is a commitment to explore precisely the issues that noble Lords have highlighted in this debate. It will give us the time to do them justice. To rush legislation now would, as I have said, risk solidifying into statute the wrong framework and accountability mechanisms, as well as the wrong arrangements for ensuring that responsible public authorities collaborate to ensure that victims receive the services that they need.

We also cannot take a shortcut with a regulation-making power, as suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt. As I said in my opening speech, your Lordships’ House does not like the kind of skeletal powers that would be provided for in Amendment 31. Any new duties in respect of community-based support should be set out in primary legislation, as we have done for accommodation-based support in Part 4. This issue must be given thorough and thoughtful consideration. We will use the consultation to interrogate fully the current landscape of community-based services and to develop effective proposals on how we might ensure that it remains robust and effective in order to give all victims access to these vital services.

My noble friend Lord Polak pointed to the fact that Amendment 85 also seeks to make provision for perpetrator programmes. I agree entirely that more is needed here. The noble Baronesses, Lady Primarolo and Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb, also talked about the issue. I will set out our plans in this area when we come to debate other amendments tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, and the noble Lord, Lord Strasburger. The needs of victims and perpetrators are clearly of a different order, but we recognise that both issues need to be addressed. However, we are not persuaded that they should be conflated in a single provision such as that provided for in Amendment 85.

I turn finally to Amendment 30. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, that for the reasons I have explained, we would not expect local authorities to give priority to accommodation-based support services over community- based services, so the circumstances addressed in the amendment should not arise. In response to his question, once the new duty under Part 4 becomes law the public sector equality duty will apply to local authorities in delivering their functions under it.

In assessing needs, local authorities will consider the differing requirements of all victims. This goes to the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, because that will include those with relevant protected characteristics under the Equality Act 2010, as well as victims who might come in from outside the specific local authority area. As set out in the draft statutory guidance, tier 1 local authorities should make it clear in their strategies how they plan to make support services available that will meet the needs of all victims. The strategy should set out the support needs that have been identified as part of the local needs assessment, along with a clear breakdown of the differing needs of victims’ groups such as, but not limited to, those from BAME backgrounds or who identify as LGBT, and how they will address the barriers faced by victims with relevant protected characteristics and/or multiple or complex needs. I hope that that will answer the point put by the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss.

We want the same outcomes here. I think and hope that the road map that I have set out, underpinned by our amendments, has reassured noble Lords that the Government are committed to taking this issue forward at pace. I therefore ask the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, not to move his amendment. I thank all noble Lords for taking part in what has been an incredibly constructive debate and I hope that these government amendments will be universally supported.

[The Deputy Speaker (Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall) (Lab)]

I have received a request to ask the Minister a short question from the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I want to ask the Minister a couple of quick questions. The first relates to the additional money she mentioned today and in Committee that is going to local authorities to help to implement the legislation. Given what the NAO has said this morning, is she confident that local authorities will actually spend the money in the areas in which the Government wish them to? Secondly, on the question put by the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, about the jeopardy that women-only spaces in refuges are coming under because of local authority commissioning policies, will the Minister remind those authorities of the need to implement fully the Equality Act 2010 and not try to reinterpret it?

Covert Human Intelligence Sources (Criminal Conduct) Bill

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall

Committee stage & Committee: 3rd sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 3rd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Thursday 3rd December 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords who have spoken in this debate.

Amendment 39 seeks clarification on who can be authorised under the Bill. The intention behind the Bill is to provide protection both to the CHIS themselves and to those involved in the authorisation process within the relevant public authority. There are a range of limitations on what can be authorised under the Bill, including the conduct being necessary and proportionate. This means that it would not be possible to grant an authorisation for criminal conduct unless that conduct was by a CHIS for a specific, identified purpose, or involved members of the public authority making, or giving effect to, the CHIS authorisation.

Amendment 53, from the noble Lord, Lord Sikka, seeks to restrict those who can be granted a criminal conduct authorisation to employees of the public authority. The Government cannot support this amendment as it would significantly hamper our public authorities’ efforts to tackle crimes and terrorism. While CHIS are often employees of the public authority, they also can be members of the public. The real value of CHIS who are members of the public is in their connections to the criminal and terrorist groups that we are targeting. This is often the only means by which valuable intelligence can be gathered on the harmful activities which we are seeking to stop. Employees of a public authority will not have the same level of access. I reassure the noble Lord that the authorising officers within the public authority set out clearly the strict parameters of a criminal conduct authorisation. Were a CHIS to engage in criminality beyond their authorisation, that conduct could be considered for prosecution in the usual way.

The noble Lord, Lord Paddick, asked whether the CHIS and their handler could be prosecuted. Obviously, every situation will be different, but if the CHIS acted beyond their authorisation, they would have to answer for that. Equally, if the CHIS handler acted inappropriately or in a way that might endanger the CHIS, they could also be liable for that conduct.

The noble Lord, Lord Sikka, talked about security guards being undercover operatives. The noble Lord will know that we have published the list of bodies that can run undercover operatives. In addition to this, the criminal injuries compensation scheme is not undermined by this Bill, and I understand that anyone can approach the IPT if they feel they are due civil compensation. I think that is right, but I will write to noble Lords if that is wrong.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall) (Lab)]

I have received a request to speak after the Minister, and hand signals suggest it may be the noble Lord, Lord Paddick.

[Lord Paddick (LD)]

I thank the Minister for her explanation. I am not sure I explained myself well enough to her in terms of who is covered by legal immunity. It is not if the CHIS goes beyond the CCA, but if the CHIS remains within the CCA. So, if the CHIS operates exactly in the way the handler has told them to, and the handler tells them only what the authorising officer has authorised them to, but it is not necessary or proportionate, it is corrupt or a mistake, who is covered by the CCA? Who is covered by the immunity, even though the CHIS has not gone beyond what they were asked to do?

Immigration (Leave to Enter and Remain) (Amendment) (EU Exit) Order 2020

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall

Wednesday 18th November 2020 Grand Committee

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

I thank both noble Lords for their points. Indeed, I welcome the positive comments about this statutory instrument made by the noble Lord, Lord Bhatia. The noble Lord, Lord Paddick, asked a number of questions about security and the impact of the ending of free movement and other things, while the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, made a couple of additional points, which I will attempt to answer.

To answer the first point made by the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, when individuals use e-gates, they are not routinely questioned by a Border Force officer. However, I assure the Grand Committee that our e-gates conduct a full range of security checks. The biometric check that they undertake on people’s travel documents means that they are a highly effective method of detecting imposters, people with fake passports, fake facial images, et cetera. The e-gates also allow our allow highly trained Border Force officers to focus their efforts on high-risk cohorts—[Interruption.] I shall stop there.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall) (Lab)]

My Lords, the Division Bell is ringing so the Committee will adjourn for five minutes.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall) (Lab)]

Five minutes has now elapsed so I invite the Minister to continue her remarks.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

My Lords, e-gates are and will continue to be able to identify pre-existing adverse information about travellers and individual subjects. Such information will be seen by a Border Force officer. If officers require information about any person’s previous immigration history, the Home Office has access to data, including advance passenger information and exit check records, to verify the person’s individual history. Those officers will retain the ability to exercise the full range of powers at the border, so they will be able to continue to refuse entry where appropriate to those whom they deem ineligible for entry.

The noble Lords, Lord Paddick and Lord Rosser, asked about UK citizens travelling to the EU. They will know that this is part of the ongoing negotiations, of course. For our part, we have ensured fairness in the system by setting up the EU settlement scheme so that no one from the EU is in any doubt about their rights.

On SIS II and what will replace it, those negotiations are ongoing. However, I agree with both noble Lords that having our full range of law enforcement capabilities is absolutely essential as we go through the transition period. If I may, I will get back to the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, on the impact assessment of the small number of people who will be negatively impacted by e-gates; of course, it is a small number because most people will see a positive impact from them.

The noble Lord, Lord Paddick, asked how this is different from free movement. EEA citizens and their family members will be subject to UK immigration control from 11 pm on 31 December this year on the same basis as non-EEA citizens except where they form part of the citizens’ rights cohort.

In answer to the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, the new border and immigration system will see EEA citizen visitors become subject to the same Immigration Rules, criminality thresholds and travel document requirements as other third-country nationals. However, in contrast to the situation under free movement, EEA citizen visitors passing through e-gates after 31 December who do not have another form of UK status or eligibility to apply to the EU settlement scheme will be granted six months’ leave to enter but will not be permitted to work or access benefits and services. They will also be expected to leave the UK or extend their stay before their leave to enter expires. Any EEA citizens arriving for work or long-term study will need to apply under our new system and obtain prior permission, just like all other non-visa nationals. Without such a permission, they will not be able to demonstrate their entitlement to remain in the UK for anything other than a visit.

The noble Lord, Lord Paddick, was concerned about repeat visits. He talked about refreshing leave to enter every six months by leaving for a short period—a point that he has talked about at length—but it is not possible to do so and obtain the same rights and entitlements as residents. Anyone seeking to abuse the system in this way would find themselves prohibited from working and obtaining benefits. If their intentions were to become known to the Home Office, they could be refused when seeking entry at the border. Further, if they seek to stay longer than six months or breach the conditions of their stay as a visitor, they may also be liable to enforcement action, including removal from the UK. That also answers the point made by the noble Lord about being able to rent.

Returning briefly to the EU treatment of UK citizens, it is not based on the EU providing reciprocal access to its e-gates for British citizens. The UK has always sought to manage its border in the country’s best interest. That is why we did not join the Schengen zone and why, on leaving the EU, we are determined to enhance our ability to manage our border in a way that continues to protect the public and facilitates the passage of legitimate travellers.

Immigration and Social Security Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall

Consideration of Commons amendments & Ping Pong (Hansard) & Ping Pong (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 21st October 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

I thank noble Lords for their comments. The noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, initially challenged me on what the Government have to lose. It is not really about what the Government have to lose; it is a demonstration that, throughout this process, we have constantly articulated just what the Government are doing to ensure that children in care, or other vulnerable people, are able to register for the EU settlement scheme. We have put in quite a lot of resource to ensure that that happens. We have increased the number of organisations helping in this regard from 57 to 72 and we will put significant funding in place to ensure that people eligible to apply do so.

The noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, said that we are acting as though all detainees are offenders, and the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, talked about the number of people detained who are vulnerable. In fact, a snapshot of offenders from the EU detained at the end of March 2020 found that if a 28-day time limit were in place, we would have been required to release into the community 166 foreign national offenders being held under immigration powers to effect their deportation. Of these offenders, 35 had committed very serious crimes, including murder, rape, offences against children and other serious sexual or violent offences. There is no indefinite detention, but it is necessary sometimes to keep people detained, particularly serious offenders and those frustrating their removal.

[The Deputy Speaker (Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall) (Lab)]

My Lords, I have received no requests to speak after the Minister, so I shall put the question.

Immigration and Social Security Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall

Committee stage & Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 9th September 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

My Lords, again, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Green of Deddington, for tabling this amendment and all noble Lords who have spoken to it. As noble Lords have said, this amendment would have the effect of reintroducing a resident labour market test for EEA citizens, otherwise known as the RLMT. The RLMT requires a job to be advertised in the UK for 28 days to establish whether there is anyone suitable in the domestic labour market before the job can be offered to an overseas migrant. Again, on the face of it this is a very sensible measure, but it would add to the burden on businesses and would considerably slow the process of recruiting a skilled migrant.

We want the UK to be a great place to do business and to ensure we do not impose unnecessary obstacles in the path of those who want to operate and contribute, ensuring that the UK’s economy continues to prosper. We also want to create a single, global immigration system, focusing on skills and talents and the contribution that migrants can make to the UK, rather than where they have come from. We should be imposing an RLMT only if we think it would genuinely offer protection to resident workers, and the Government do not think at this stage that that would be so. That is not just the Government’s opinion but is based on the clear economic advice of the MAC: of course, the MAC consults very widely with stakeholders before producing its recommendation.

I shall quote from a report published in September 2018 on the impact of EEA migration. The MAC said it was,

“sceptical about how effective the RLMT is”

in giving settled workers the first opportunity to fill jobs. It went on to say:

“We think it likely the bureaucratic costs of the RLMT outweigh any economic benefit”.


Finally, the MAC said:

“We therefore recommend the abolition of the RLMT”.


Equally pertinent is the MAC’s next paragraph:

“We do think it important to have protection against employers using migrants to under-cut UK-born workers. The best protection is a robust approach to salary thresholds and the Immigration Skills Charge and not the RLMT.”


The Government agree, which is why we are maintaining a firm requirement in the new points-based immigration system for migrants who are coming under the skilled worker route to be paid a salary that does not undercut domestic workers.

As outlined in the Government’s February policy statement, we have accepted the MAC’s recommendations on salary thresholds set out in its 28 January report on salary threshold and points-based systems. Building on this, the Government have set out additional detail on likely salary thresholds in the July Further Details document, so noble Lords can see exactly the approach we are taking and how we are ensuring that migrants cannot come in on the cheap. I remind noble Lords that, again on the MAC’s advice, we are retaining the immigration skills charge, which has to be paid by all employers of skilled migrant workers. The requirement to pay that charge, the proceeds of which contribute directly to the UK skills budget, helps ensure that employers are unlikely to employ a migrant when there is someone suitable to undertake the role within the domestic labour workforce. I hope that, on that basis, the noble Lord will be happy to withdraw his amendment.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall) (Lab)]

My Lords, I have received no requests to speak after the Minister, so I call the noble Lord, Lord Green of Deddington.

European Arrest Warrant, Europol and Eurojust

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall

Monday 2nd March 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I would not say it is inferior, but I agree that it is different. The Norway-Iceland arrangements seem to work perfectly well with those enhanced safeguards.

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab)]

My Lords, back when we were discussing the European withdrawal agreement six months ago, it was frequently said that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed. Can the noble Baroness confirm that the same rules apply as we go forward towards the new agreement that we are now negotiating? If we do not manage to agree everything, what position will we be left in with respect to these aspects of criminal justice?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

We obviously want an agreement across all areas of law enforcement co-operation—I cannot hypothecate what the noble Baroness says—because we want to keep our citizens safe.