Migrants: Channel Crossings

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Baroness Smith of Basildon

Tuesday 8th January 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, the last thing that the Government want is for children to be sent across in order to bring their families across. We do not want children to act as a pull factor for people to make these unsafe journeys. We do not intend to change that principle.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, I listened carefully to the Minister’s answers and she seemed to imply that the Dublin regulation appeared to be the responsibility of those claiming asylum and refugees. Does she not understand that it is in fact burden-sharing between countries, which have an obligation—we have an obligation—to protect those who seek asylum? The House would find it helpful if she could give a more adequate answer than she has so far.

In the Minister’s Statement yesterday, when my noble friend Lord Kennedy of Southwark raised this point with her, she spoke about the various agencies that were working together and co-ordinating, such as Border Force, Immigration Enforcement, the coastguard and the National Crime Agency. How many people smugglers, who bring people into the country and put them in danger, have been prevented from doing so? How many of those criminals have been detained, and how many have been prosecuted?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

On the last question first, I will try to give the noble Baroness details. I am not sure that I will be able to obtain the figures, but I will certainly try. She made a point about the Dublin regulation being an obligation or burden on the person claiming asylum. In fact, as she knows, it is an EU-wide agreement that asylum seekers will claim in the first safe country they reach. To suggest that they should do it any other way is dangerous to the lives of those people.

Asylum Seekers: Removal

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Baroness Smith of Basildon

Monday 17th December 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, that is a gross exaggeration of the fact. The noble Lord conflates two things, which are the Foreign and Commonwealth Office’s advice to people travelling for holidays and other reasons and our obligations under the 1951 convention and the European Convention on Human Rights. He asks about indefinite detention. There is no indefinite detention. Most cases are sorted out within four months. As for people being deported, the FCO does not advise against travel to the whole of the countries the noble Lord mentions—Congo, Somalia and Afghanistan. It only advises against travel to parts of those countries. Also, when we send people back who have no legal right to be here, we do so with the humanitarian considerations that I have outlined in mind.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, perhaps I may press the noble Baroness further on her comment about humanitarian considerations. How is an assessment of individual safety undertaken if someone is being removed to another country? I refer in particular to their political activities, their gender or their sexual orientation. When someone is returned to another country, what follow-up is undertaken to ensure that they are indeed safe?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

As I said to the noble Lord, the UK bases its decisions on two conventions, the 1951 convention and the European Convention on Human Rights. If, for example, an LGBT person was to be sent back to a country or to an area in a country where they would be persecuted for their sexuality, we would not send them back.

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[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

My Lords, I apologise for coming back to the noble Baroness, but this is a point for clarification. I do not have a dictionary to hand, but I think that she has confused the word “indefinite” with “for ever”. All the word “indefinite” means is that there is no time limit. Does that mean that she is now willing to set a time limit so that detention would not be indefinite?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The word “indefinite” means for all time.

Visas: Certificates of Sponsorship

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Baroness Smith of Basildon

Thursday 13th September 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I know that the Government have been engaging with the sector. I shall double-check with the talent unions and if they have not been engaged with I shall make that suggestion.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness says that we are working hard to understand this. She is sure that advice is given to our embassies abroad and that we are looking for a way forward. Does she not understand that, while they are working hard to understand it and looking for a way forward, this is having a devastating effect on the cultural life of the country and an impact on the economics? The organisations that are expected to bring artists over, but at the last minute find they are unable to do so, have an economic deficit in their accounts as well. The noble Baroness sounds a bit complacent. I hope she can move with some urgency to resolve this as soon as possible.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I am not complacent at all. I recognise completely the value that the entertainment industry gives to society and, of course, the economic value. We are working through a solution that will help those people entering through Ireland. It is predominantly an Irish issue.

Brexit: UK Passports

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Baroness Smith of Basildon

Thursday 29th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

It is all relative in your Lordships’ House.

It is not the case that we are going from 28 countries to one country because, of course, we need a passport to go to any country. As to choosing the colour, I have thought about this, and people can have any colour passport that they wish—they just need to buy a passport cover. As for which colour the noble Lord might like, I have looked at different colour passports and there are some rather nice yellow ones. One has a picture of SpongeBob SquarePants, but the noble Lord might prefer the one with the bird on it. Unfortunately, the bird is Tweetie Pie.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, I wonder whether the noble Baroness can help me on the issue of citizenship, as raised by the noble Lord, regarding the onward movement of UK citizens in Europe following Brexit. It is the question that I asked the noble Baroness the Leader of the House on the Prime Minister’s Statement this week. In the withdrawal agreement published in February, Article 32 makes it clear that there will be no onward movement for UK citizens, thus disadvantaging UK citizens post Brexit, but in the more recent update of the same document, Article 32 has completely disappeared. The document goes from Article 31 to Article 33 and makes no reference to the onward movement of UK citizens, so we really do not know where we are. Are the Government still negotiating? Is there a possibility that they will go back to the table, renegotiate and that UK citizens might have the same benefits post Brexit as before? Or have they just conceded the point and did not want to put that in the document?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Baroness might have asked that question in the following Question but I am quite happy to deal with it in this one. I understand that my noble friend the Leader of the House is writing to the noble Baroness on this subject. Of course, such detail is subject to negotiation, but it is in the interest of both the UK and the EU for there to be free movement of UK citizens to other EU states.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

I do not think the noble Baroness has quite got the point I made. The updated document contains issues that are subject to negotiation and issues that have been agreed. What has happened is that that article has disappeared from the document entirely. What does that mean?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

It means that it will be subject to negotiations between this country and the EU. The noble Baroness has asked me about a specific point and, as well as my noble friend the Leader writing to her, I shall follow it up.

Modern Slavery: Indian Supply Chains

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Baroness Smith of Basildon

Monday 5th February 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, part of the pressure is from the public, because the public are more and more concerned that their clothes are produced ethically—or whatever goods and services. The Home Secretary can apply for a court injunction requiring businesses to comply. If they still refuse, they will be liable to an unlimited fine for contempt of court.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, does the Minister realise how weak her answers sound? In response to the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries, she said that it is for NGOs to keep a list; to the noble and learned Baroness she said that the public have to put on pressure. There has to be a little bit more action from the Government. They have this requirement, so they have to get behind it to make sure it happens. We understand, as we heard earlier, that the Government set their face against any statutory regulation in this regard, but will the Minister tell us what action the Government will now take to do their utmost to ensure that these companies register and understand the risk in their supply chain, as has been highlighted by the Corporate Responsibility Coalition, which recognises that many companies just are not looking at this and taking it seriously? The Government have to step up to the plate.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I did not absolve the Government of responsibility by saying that it is up to the NGOs to produce a list. I outlined the difficulties of producing a list, because of filtering by turnover size. The idea of public pressure is a strong one. In addition, I outlined the remedies available to the Home Secretary, which include applying for a court injunction requiring businesses to comply. They are liable to an unlimited fine for contempt of court if they do not.

Police Commissioners

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Baroness Smith of Basildon

Monday 22nd January 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, the reason for a cap is to stop precepts from getting completely out of hand in terms of the amount that local people might be asked to pay. The advice to police is that there are further efficiencies to be made in policing, as acknowledged by HMICFRS. There are investments in technology and things such as shared services that the police can look at across the piece. However, it is up to the local PCC to determine the best level of funding for the area and what type of investments it wishes to make.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, is this not just another example of the Government passing the buck? The police are under enormous financial pressure, and every county in this country will say that they do not see police officers as often as they used to and that numbers are falling. It is hardly surprising that, after seven years of real-term cuts, we have fewer officers per head of the population today than we have had at any time since records began. Instead of saying that it is a matter for the police force or PCCs, will the Government accept responsibility and give the funding required? When the Minister says that these technologies are needed and investment must be made, we have to put the money in first to see the benefit of investment. Will the Government step up to their responsibilities and adequately fund our police force?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, the Government certainly accept their responsibilities. The right honourable Member in the other place, Nick Hurd, visited every police force in England in the run-up to this. The NPCC and the APCC called for £440 million of extra funding in 2018-19, with additional CT funding on top. They called for an extra 5,000 front-line officers for proactive policing by 2020. If all forces delivered the level of productivity benefits of mobile working of the best forces, the average officer could spend an hour a day extra on the front line. That has a potential to create the equivalent of 11,000 extra officers across England and Wales. In addition, the police have reserves of £1.6 billion to invest.

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[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I am not sure whether the noble Baroness means a reasonable figure for reserves.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

Yes.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I thank the Labour Front Bench for answering the noble Baroness’s question. I think that 5% of the revenue budget is deemed a reasonable level of reserves. I cannot stand at the Dispatch Box and work that out quickly.