Crime: Police Numbers

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Cormack

Tuesday 22nd October 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

Pressure on the police is one of the major factors in the announcement by this and the previous Home Secretary on the ambition to recruit 20,000 police officers. The noble Lord is absolutely right that, as crime goes up, different crimes emerge. It is very important that the police have the resources and capabilities at hand to tackle it.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

Does my noble friend accept that there is widespread concern at the number of offences that are not investigated? Will she assure the House that as we build up the numbers of police we will also build up the numbers of crimes that are thoroughly and properly investigated?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The police will prioritise, and it is important that crimes are investigated. Locally, it is up to police to ensure that they are.

Sir Richard Henriques Report

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Cormack

Tuesday 8th October 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, I beg leave to ask a Question of which I have given private notice.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, while this is clearly a concerning case, it is vital that an organisation such as the IOPC operates independently of both the police and the Government. The Government have introduced reforms to improve its efficiency and effectiveness, progress has been made and we expect that trajectory to continue. The Home Secretary has asked HMICFRS to conduct an inspection of the Metropolitan Police Service to ensure that lessons have been learned from the issues highlighted. This will take into consideration the IOPC recommendations.

[Lord Cormack]

My Lords, while I thank my noble friend for her Answer, I must regret that it is nowhere near as robust as the Answer she gave to my noble friend Lord Forsyth. Does she agree that Sir Richard has performed a notable public service by examining rigorously a very shameful episode in our history which tarnished the reputations of some great people? Does she agree that, in contrast, the IOPC, whose duty should surely be to be a rigorous upholder of the highest possible standards, has delivered an abject apology for an appalling failure?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I would most certainly agree with my noble friend that Sir Richard has performed a notable public service. It is also important that we have an independent body that oversees, independently of both the police and the Government, the conduct of the police, so I would disagree with my noble friend on the second point.

Immigration Detention: Victims of Modern Slavery

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Cormack

Thursday 18th July 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Baroness will probably know that, first, we do not detain children —she is absolutely right that children are granted our protection—and all children, no matter what the circumstances of our protection here, are reassessed as they approach their 18th birthday. On sending someone back to face a repeated danger, that would be taken into consideration. We would not send someone back somewhere where they would face harm.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, as a follow-up to the last two questions, in particular the one from my noble friend Lady Manzoor, can my noble friend assure us that there is one unit in the Home Office that deals exclusively with this subject, to make sure that everyone who deals with a victim of slavery knows the ins and outs of modern slavery—or is this part of a more general remit?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

As I said in my Statement, we have what we call the national referral mechanism, which is multiagency and which provides wrap-around support to victims of modern-day slavery.

Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Cormack

Thursday 4th July 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I wholeheartedly agree with the first part of the noble Lord’s question. For too long, those victims have been ignored. On the anonymity to which he refers—we talked yesterday about his Bill—I explained in my Answer to the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, about the presumption of anonymity, save in exceptional circumstances.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble friend accept the seething discontent in your Lordships’ House about the way in which the reputations of Sir Edward Heath, Leon Brittan and Greville Janner have been trashed? Can she not see that this House wants something like a royal commission to be set up on this issue, appointed by the Government and given six or nine months to report?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I of all people am very aware of the anger in your Lordships’ House. Let us get to the heart of what IICSA is about: I am also aware of the historic issues that need to be tested and explored through that inquiry, for all those people for whom some of the historic events have not yet been addressed.

Metal Theft

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Cormack

Wednesday 26th June 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I entirely agree with the noble Lord’s latter point about enforcement. As he said, it is up to local authorities and police forces to do that to deter the theft which we historically saw. His point about cash is also well made, but that was covered by the Act. The task force was never intended to be a long-term group, and was disbanded in 2014, following the successful implementation of the Act. In the specific case of railways, the national crime tasking and co-ordination group brings rail and telecoms together. It is organised by the national crime tasking and co-ordination group. In addition, we have the NPCC-led theft working group, chaired by the national policing lead, ACC Robin Smith.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, I speak as a vice-president of the National Churches Trust. Will my noble friend acknowledge that this is an increasing problem, particularly in rural churches, and will she meet a deputation from the National Churches Trust to discuss it?

Immigration and Asylum Applications

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Cormack

Wednesday 19th June 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble friend have a record of the number of refused asylum seekers who are claiming asylum because they are persecuted Christians?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I do not have the number with me and I am not sure that the reason for persecution because of faith will be available. However, I will certainly have a look for my noble friend.

Independent Child Sexual Abuse Inquiry

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Cormack

Monday 25th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I am very glad the noble Lord has asked that question. Quite often in these situations the victims can be overlooked, and thousands of accounts of sexual abuse have now been shared with the Truth Project, which noble Lords and others will have seen on the television. We must not overlook the victims. We must ensure that all the processes are in place in order that perpetrators will be brought to justice. Victims are, therefore, at the heart of what we do.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, am I correct in inferring from what my noble friend said that the Government will give their support to my noble friend Lord Lexden’s Bill?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I will have to consider it in due course.

Knife Crime

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Cormack

Monday 4th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Lord points out the stark simplicity with which somebody can kill somebody else—by a single blow of a knife. In talking about the public health response to knife crime, the Department for Education has a critical role to play in the lives of these young people, certainly some of those who are excluded from school, and on how to keep them engaged and out of trouble, not only when they are in school but when they are excluded too.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, if anyone had suggested that the visible police presence around this building should be reduced or withdrawn, there would be universal condemnation of the suggestion. The point made by the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, is relevant in this context. If we have, in our towns and cities, a more prevalent, visible presence on the streets, it will surely be the best single thing we can do to combat this appalling scourge of our society.

Returning Jihadists: Treason Act

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Cormack

Thursday 21st February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

It might be the noble Lord because it is difficult to prosecute people in Syria, where we have no consular access. People have been prosecuted when they come back to this country and have been put into programmes such as Channel to try to rehabilitate them. There are a number of different remedies available to the Government and the Home Secretary to bring people to justice.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, is not “a fast-moving Home Office” the ultimate oxymoron?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I do not think so, my Lords.

EU Settlement Scheme

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Cormack

Thursday 14th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble friend not remember that as early as July 2016 your Lordships’ House advised that it would be a good idea to take the moral high ground and give a guarantee to the 3 million-plus EU citizens living in this country? Even arch-Brexiteers such as my noble friend Lord Forsyth spoke up in favour of that approach. Does she not regret that the Government neglected to take your Lordships’ advice?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, the Prime Minister has always been clear that the 3.6 million EU citizens will be welcome here, and, whether it is a deal or no-deal situation, they will be able to establish their status here through the EU settlement scheme.

Brexit: Security

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Cormack

Tuesday 29th January 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

It is certainly the case that the European arrest warrant is a very smooth process. I cannot give the noble Lord an estimate of the exact time relying on the Council of Europe convention because it has not happened yet. I can give estimates of what happened when we relied on the convention, but I cannot give an estimate on what has not happened yet. There is no doubt—I think this goes to the nub of the noble Lord’s point—that the European arrest warrant is a very smooth process.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Cormack]

Can my noble friend assure the House that, although it would be very much a second best, bilateral negotiations are already taking place with all the countries of the European Union, particularly the larger countries—France, Germany, Italy and Spain—to ensure that we have bilateral agreements if we have the very unhappy result of no deal.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My noble friend is absolutely right. With particular reference to Europol, this is pertinent, as we would have to have a series of bilateral co-operation mechanisms. In addition, we would be moving our Europol liaison bureau to The Hague.

Migration: International Students

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Cormack

Monday 7th January 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

Does not my noble friend accept that if we reflected on the wisdom of the question of my noble friend Lord Holmes and the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria, our vital statistics would certainly improve?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I made the point that our vital statistics have improved massively in the past eight to nine years. There is no cap on the number of students who can come to study here and, as the future immigration White Paper showed, have great prospects here.

Immigration

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Cormack

Thursday 25th October 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I absolutely concur with the last point the noble Lord made. We are the representatives of the Government. We are not blaming officials. We are looking at the wider system. Guidance which was wrong was corrected and we are looking to see whether there is other guidance that is wrong and needs to be corrected. I again pay tribute to the staff of the Home Office. This is not a blame game. We are trying to put right something that is clearly wrong. I do not know whether the Home Secretary is planning to issue a personal apology, but he clearly publicly apologised today and I believe that that apology was most sincere.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for the tone of her replies. I shall ask her two things. First, among the Afghans, were there some of those very brave people who were interpreters and their families who have given measureless service to this country in the most difficult circumstances? Secondly, let me also say, following my noble friend Lord Deben and the noble Lord from the Cross Benches, the culture of targets is wrong. That is what we have suffered from for too long. The real target for the Home Office and Ministers should be to exercise the functions of that great department with sensitivity and humanity, remembering that every human being has a dignity that should be respected.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I could not at all disagree with my noble friend about what the real target of the Home Office should be. In fact, I think my right honourable friend the Home Secretary outlined that very clearly when he became Home Secretary. My noble friend is right that the target culture is wrong, and it has been done away with. I join him in paying tribute to the brave Afghan people who helped this country in spite of so much danger in many cases. My noble friend asked about interpreters. I think there may have been interpreters in that number, but I will confirm that. Our investigation so far has shown that no Afghan was refused entry to this country on the basis of DNA. I join my noble friend in paying tribute to those very brave people.

Border Force: Heathrow Airport

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Cormack

Thursday 25th October 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I am sure that the noble Lord will agree that, when passengers come into this country, Border Force ensures that this country maintains its safety and security for all. The arguments around the CTA are well trodden, with the Government not wanting a hard border between Ireland and the UK. Of course, the CTA existed before the EU itself, and will do after we leave.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, in congratulating my noble friend on her impeccable good humour whenever she is answering Questions, may I ask whether we are likely to have a backstop or a stop-back arrangement for EU immigrants from 29 March next year?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I thank my noble friend for that congratulation: it is probably the first I have ever had. All I can say at this point is that, as he knows, negotiations are ongoing and this will be determined in due course.

Brexit: Europol

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Cormack

Tuesday 11th September 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cormack]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether, following recent developments regarding the Salisbury incident, they will seek to ensure that the United Kingdom is able fully to contribute to Europol after 29 March 2019 and during any subsequent transition period.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, the UK will continue to participate in Europol and other EU justice and home affairs agencies during the implementation period, and to make a full contribution to the operational work of the agency.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, I must apologise for the fact that the words “and thereafter” did not appear in my Question, which was entirely my fault. It is truly important that our arrangements with Europol last long beyond next March and any transition period. Does my noble friend not agree that the prime duty of any Government is the security of their people and that we need these arrangements with our European friends and neighbours as a very important ingredient in providing security for our people?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I agree with my noble friend that the words “and beyond” are important. During the implementation period, we will be able to participate in existing EU JHA tools and measures. But, beyond that, we will separately seek to agree ongoing co-operation through future security partnerships. To that end, we have proposed a new coherent and legally binding agreement on internal security that protects mutually beneficial aspects of co-operation in this area and ensures that both the UK and the EU can continue to tackle fast-evolving security threats.

Registration of Marriage Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Cormack

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Friday 29th June 2018 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of St Albans for his continued support in bringing forward changes to the way in which marriages are registered. Under present legislation, the marriage register entry provides space for the name of the father of each of the couple to be recorded but not that of the mother, and that has been the case since 1837.

This situation is outdated and it is widely accepted that changes are required to address this inequality. There has been growing pressure both from within Parliament and from the public for reform. For example, an online petition attracted in excess of 70,000 signatures. However, it should be noted that when deciding how the marriage entry should be updated we will need to ensure that we allow for all the different family circumstances in society today—for example, same-sex parents.

The most efficient and economical way to introduce these changes is to reform the way in which marriages are registered in England and Wales by moving to a “schedule”- based system similar to that in place for marriages and civil partnerships in Scotland and Northern Ireland and for civil partnerships in England and Wales.

The basis of a schedule system is that the couple sign a marriage schedule instead of the marriage register book. Couples will still be able to have that all-important traditional photo taken after the ceremony with their witnesses, but instead of signing the marriage register they will sign the marriage schedule with their witnesses. The schedule will contain all the information to be entered into the electronic marriage register maintained by the Registrar-General.

Those marrying in the Church of England or Church in Wales will still be able to marry by ecclesiastical preliminaries—for example, the publishing of banns or the issue of a common licence. Where ecclesiastical preliminaries are used, the member of the clergy will issue a “marriage document” similar to the schedule issued by the superintendent registrar, which will be returned to—

[Lord Cormack]

Why cannot we use the traditional word, “register”? Why do we have to go in for “schedule”?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I think that it is because we are dealing here with the legality rather than the tradition. I understand my noble friend’s point, but I would hope that such a small but important matter did not derail this important Bill. I am not for a moment suggesting that that is my noble friend’s intention; I understand his point.

Moving from a paper-based system to registration in an electronic register will facilitate the updating of the marriage entry to include both parents of each of the couple without having to replace all register books and it would introduce savings of £33.8 million over 10 years. The changes which the right reverend Prelate seeks are not controversial and have received a lot of cross-party support, hence the support in the Chamber today.

As the Bill contains delegated powers. I advised at Second Reading that the Home Office would produce and publish illustrative regulations prior to Committee to demonstrate to noble Lords how the powers in Clause 1 would be used. I can confirm that the draft regulations were made available in the Library of the House on 17 April.

I must emphasise that the regulations are an early draft and further drafting is required. We would welcome any comments from noble Lords on the content. It is our aim to be transparent during the process of amending the Marriage Act 1949 as we move towards the introduction of the schedule system.

We will continue to work with all key stakeholders, including the Church of England, in developing the policy. I will make further drafts of the regulations available in the Library in due course. I assure noble Lords that the changes to the Marriage Act will be made using the affirmative resolution procedure, ensuring they are debated in both Houses of Parliament and providing parliamentary oversight.

My noble friend Lord Blencathra expressed concern at Second Reading about the use of delegated powers in the Bill. To address those concerns, I can confirm that Home Office officials have been working with the right reverend Prelate to make technical amendments to Clauses 1 and 2 to limit the use of delegated powers to introduce these changes and to provide noble Lords with some reassurance as to how the powers are intended to be used.

The scope of the enabling language in Clause 1 will be narrowed to reflect the policy intent of the Bill to replace the current paper-based system with an electronic schedule-based system. Amendments required to primary legislation will be limited to the Marriage Act 1949. The broad power in Clause 1(2), which gives the Secretary of State the power to amend, repeal or revoke provisions in other Acts of Parliament, will be removed. As the right reverend Prelate has already explained, it is also proposed to include a sunset clause in the Bill limiting the power for the Secretary of State to make regulations which amend primary legislation to a period of three years beginning on the day on which the regulations are first made.

Concern has been raised that the powers in Clause 2 may delegate matters currently provided for in primary legislation. Amendments to Clause 2 will limit the scope to making regulations under Section 74(1) of the Marriage Act. I reassure the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, and the House that these regulations are intended only to supplement the current provisions in the Act.

I know that noble Lords recognise the importance of taking these changes forward to modernise the process of registering marriages, and I hope that the amendments made to the Bill will provide some reassurance to them of the value we place on parliamentary scrutiny throughout the legislative process.

I want finally to answer a question posed by the noble Lord, Lord Rosser. When the Bill was drafted, the policy was not so advanced and the powers in the Bill provided flexibility. We have been working closely with Home Office officials to develop policy further, which has allowed us to make these changes.

Windrush Generation

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Cormack

Tuesday 24th April 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I join the noble Lord in saying that this is a bad period—for successive Governments, actually—but that is not a reason to try to shirk our responsibilities as a Government. In terms of Mr Howard, the task force is aware of his case and we have contacted him previously, and we will be doing so again as part of this exercise. We are taking a proactive stance on cases we know exist.

The noble Lord also asked whether we should be revisiting some of our policy, for example in connection with the hostile environment. This is not a new thing. Successive Labour and Conservative Home Secretaries over the past 30 years have sought to make the UK a hostile environment for people who should not be here. Let us not forget the consequences of people who should not be here. They actually cause some of the worst detriment to people, for example through modern slavery and serious and organised crime. We do not want those people in this country. We do want this country to be a friendly environment for people who are here legally, so we will not back down—as successive Governments have not done—on tackling the pernicious practice of illegal migration to this country.

On independent oversight of what we are doing, the Home Secretary has announced that an independent person will be put in charge of the compensation scheme. I am sure that there will be plenty of time and room for debate in this House, as has already taken place, to scrutinise the effects of some of the measures that the Home Secretary outlined yesterday.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, I am sorry that I am the only one on this side of the House, but I echo the expressions of shame that have already been made on both sides of the Chamber. This is a very sad day, but my noble friend the Minister was right to say that the blame is in fact cumulative and that all of us who have voted on any immigration measures have inadvertently perhaps played a part. I would like to suggest this to my noble friend: I do not like the expression “those people”; we are dealing with fellow British subjects and citizens who have the same rights as anyone in this Chamber, and that must be underlined. I would like my noble friend to discuss with the Home Secretary that a High Court judge be asked to look at all the various Acts and measures to which she referred in the Statement to see where misinterpretation could have arisen and what we can do about it. It may well be sensible for a new Bill to be presented to your Lordships’ House and another place, clarifying and rectifying the measures which have led—however inadvertently—to our treating our people so despicably.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I thank my noble friend for being the one person behind me, and I of course echo his points: this is a shameful episode in our history. The rights of these people are the rights of British citizens. However, I do not think it was the misinterpretation of legislation but rather its unintended consequence that did not—I do not want to say “confer”—confirm the rights of these people. They are not illegal migrants and that is why my right honourable friend the Home Secretary is going to right this wrong as soon as we can. He talks about other people perhaps being victims of a similar thing. That is why the measures we have in place for EU citizens are so important, so that this type of unintended consequence does not happen in the future.

Police: Independent Inquiries

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Cormack

Thursday 19th April 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The Government are not debarred from setting up an inquiry, and there are mechanisms to do so under the Inquiries Act. But as I said to my noble friend, an inquiry of any form should be considered only when other available investigatory mechanisms would not be sufficient. As I explained to him, there are other available mechanisms.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, as my noble friend has just admitted, there is nothing to prevent the Government acting. As the Home Office could do with some good publicity at the moment, could we not have a High Court judge or retired judge appointed to look into the implications of the Edward Heath case, the Brittan case and the Bishop Bell case, because there is profound public unease about all these things?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

As I stated, the PCC is completely within his powers to initiate such an inquiry.

Brexit: Border Control

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Cormack

Thursday 29th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Lord will probably know that in the Spring Statement the Chancellor announced that the Home Office would receive £395 million. Much of this will be spent on the border. The recruitment of additional staff, to which he referred, is under way to bring existing staffing levels in UKVI working on Euro routes to 1,500 by April 2018. As I said, the Chancellor announced that the Home Office would receive £395 million of that funding to fund the EU exit preparations.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

Does my noble friend think that a Minister will ever be able to stand at this Box, or at the Box in another place, and say, “We counted them all in and we counted them all out”?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

That would be ideal, my Lords.

Immigration: International Students

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Cormack

Monday 26th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, the message that is going out appears to be from your Lordships’ House and is not being heard internationally. Much has been made of applications from India. Last year, the numbers granted increased by 28%. I dispute that students are not feeling welcome in this country. They are applying in their droves.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, my noble friend will acknowledge that this House has repeatedly discussed this issue in great detail and with near unanimity. What is the real obstacle to separating the students from those who are coming indefinitely? Doing so would be sensible; it would encourage our universities; and it would give a message that the doors really are open for students throughout the world.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I think I have explained that, given the increases in visa applications and grants that have happened in the last 12 months—in fact, since 2010—students are not deterred from coming to this country to gain a world-class education. I think I have explained, too, that if students were not counted, we may not be able to plan accordingly for some of the vital services that people who live here use.

Russia: Threats to Individuals in the UK

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Cormack

Thursday 8th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

Again, we need to establish the facts of this case. The police have not reached any conclusions; there is an ongoing investigation and clearly any actions against this country by other states will be dealt with in the strongest possible terms.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, my noble friend referred to the death of two people. Was that a slip of the tongue or have these unfortunate individuals now died?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

As far as I know, the individuals have not died. The policeman in question is showing evidence of slight improvement this morning.

Police and Crime Commissioners

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Cormack

Thursday 1st March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, there certainly are PCCs who stand under party-political banners. There are also independent PCCs. I do not think that there are any Lib Dem PCCs, although the Lib Dems are very good at political campaigning. It is for PCCs to hold their chief constables to account. It is also for police and crime panels to scrutinise PCCs, and they do.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords—

Nurseries and Schools: Protection from Terrorism

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Cormack

Thursday 8th February 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

It has been—the noble Lord is right to point that out. DfE is working with the National Counter Terrorism Security Office and has had expert advice from the counterterrorism policing unit. As I said earlier, it is reviewing its guidance on preparedness, security measures and vulnerability to attack.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, might it not be better if the noble Lord, Lord Pearson of Rannoch, concentrated on Brexit and left this delicate issue alone?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I think we concentrate a lot on Brexit these days in your Lordships’ House. The Question is important. Given the threats of the past year, it is important that we are all safe whether in our schools, our homes or our communities.

Crime: Scooter and Moped Gangs

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Cormack

Tuesday 23rd January 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, as I said yesterday, police forces across the country have requested increases in funding and, as I outlined yesterday, that is what they have got, with the potential offered by some of the technologies available to them to release 11,000 police officers to do whatever jobs individual forces feel are appropriate. On the noble Lord’s point about scrambler bikes and in the context of the first part of my answer, I know that this is a particular problem in London and if police forces feel that that is the investment they should make then they should be free to do so.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, is it not terribly disturbing that the police have let it be known that quite a number of crimes are not investigated? Can we have an assurance that this crime always will be and that information will no longer be dripped out to us that burglaries and other crimes can be conducted with impunity because the police will not pursue the criminals?

Deceased Individuals: Allegations

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Cormack

Monday 22nd January 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, what we can certainly do is learn from some of the situations that have arisen in this country. I could not comment at this point on examples from around the world.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, I urge my noble friend to think again on this. It is a deeply shocking case. The reputation of a great man has been traduced, and many of us who are Anglicans are deeply ashamed of the way that the Anglican Church has behaved. This can surely be a spur to the Government to review the law to try to protect the anonymity of people who are accused of something years—decades—after their death with one uncorroborated alleged witness. Please will she take this on board and talk to the Secretary of State about it?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, as I said earlier, there is a presumption of anonymity. The report was a report to the Church of England, and it would not be appropriate for me to comment on it.

Online Hate Speech

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Cormack

Thursday 30th November 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I am delighted to express on behalf of this House, as I am sure noble Lords agree, that not only do Muslims abhor violence—it is part of the teaching of the Koran—but they helped us in wars that we have fought. I have first-hand experience of how they helped in the aftermath of some awful events in this country, not only the terrorist attack in Manchester, when Muslim taxi drivers were on hand giving their service for free, but after the floods in Manchester when the Muslim community helped to provide food and shelter to people who were in need. It brought communities together, and we should remember that.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, could we gently suggest to the President of our greatest ally that if he would make the White House a tweet and Twitter-free zone, he would make an immeasurable contribution to the peace of the world?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I recall the words of the former Prime Minister about “too many tweets”. I shall not repeat what he said but, yes, we must all be careful about what we tweet and the effect that it can have on the wider community. We should tweet with care.

Immigration: International Students

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Cormack

Tuesday 10th October 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I am afraid that I cannot say that. But my parents were immigrants to this country. They went to university in another country but certainly made this country their home. I agree that the bond that the student has with the country where they study often means that they stay here to work and contribute hugely to the economy of this country. In fact, the MAC is conducting a study on the effect of student migration and will report soon.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

Cannot my noble friend accept that there is an overwhelming view in this House that it would be sensible and entirely prudent to treat students separately, particularly at this juncture in our national affairs?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I am neither deaf nor blind to the views of noble Lords on student migration.

Brexit: UK-EU Movement of People (EUC Report)

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Cormack

Monday 17th July 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I will come back to my noble friend with accurate figures, but I shall finish my point on the International Passenger Survey because there are other methods of measurement. My noble friends Lord Forsyth and Lord Kirkhope and the noble Lords, Lord Oates and Lord Kennedy, all talked about the accuracy of the migration statistics. We think it is the best method, but exit checks were mentioned. The noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria, made a very impassioned plea for exit checks. The Government reintroduced exit checks in 2015. They are based on advanced passenger records and passport swipes as people go through airports. Last August we published a report on the methodology issues which they raised. I commend the report to the noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria, and to any other noble Lords who have not yet read it and are interested in it. In due course, the exit checks will add to the statistical picture on migration, so between the two methods we will get a better picture of where we are on migration.

[Lord Cormack]

I do not want to put my noble friend, for whom I have very real regard, on the spot tonight, but will she please try to ensure that a document is produced for when we come back in September that gives the real figures and details, because it is just not acceptable for any Member of your Lordships’ House to be told that the cost is disproportionate? That is just not on.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I think I have already offered to meet the noble Lord, Lord Hain. I have the figures for the International Passenger Survey, which show that 800,000 people were interviewed per year.

My noble friend Lord Kirkhope of Harrogate asked me why British citizens are included in net migration statistics. The statistics cover all those who come to the UK for more than 12 months and all those who leave the UK for more than 12 months. This enables those with responsibility for the provision of services to know the likely demand for those services, and therefore it is right that the ONS includes those statistics.

The committee is right to highlight the need to consider the impact of leaving the EU on our economy and the labour market. Officials across government and the ONS continue to draw together evidence and are undertaking a wide range of data analysis covering the full range of impacts of EU migration. We also intend to commission advice from the Migration Advisory Committee. There have been numerous studies looking into the impact of increased migration in the labour market on wages. The Migration Advisory Committee, to which the noble Lord, Lord Green of Deddington, referred, summarised that:

“Studies estimating the impact of migrants on UK wages have generally found little or no impact on average wages. However, in some studies migrants were found to increase wages at the top of the UK wage distribution and to lower wages at the bottom”.


More recent evidence from the Bank of England also suggests that,

“while immigration appears to have a negative impact on occupational pay, the overall average effect is relatively small”.

One of the co-authors of the research has recently emphasised the small nature of impacts, with,

“the biggest impact of immigration on wages”,

seen,

“within the semi/unskilled services occupational group”.

The Bank’s research also suggests there was no additional impact on aggregate UK wages as a result of migrants arriving specifically from EU countries. However, it is worth noting that average wage effects and the impact on individuals can be, and can seem, very different. Even small adverse effects on average wages can be significant for the individuals and families concerned.

We are looking at the need for all types of workers, and we would not wish to rule out any options at this stage. It is right that we consider low-skilled migration as part of the wider picture. It is likely that migrants working in lower-skilled occupations may make lower income tax and national insurance contributions to the UK Exchequer, as they may be receiving lower salaries than more highly-skilled migrants. So clearly this is one issue of many that we will need to consider, as well as understanding how impacts vary across a range of factors and indicators including businesses, sectors, and regions.

The noble Lord, Lord Kennedy of Southwark, talked about the implementation period. The February White Paper was clear that we will avoid a cliff edge for business and migrants and ensure a smooth transition. That is our clear aim, but it is far too early to say exactly what that might look like. The noble Lord asked about the issue of high-skilled versus low-skilled. Future decisions will be based on advice and evidence, as he says, and no final decisions have yet been taken.

The noble Baroness, Lady Massey of Darwen, asked about the position of children. I share her concern for the welfare of children. I know she will shortly be meeting my noble friend Lady Anelay, as she said. The paper on safeguarding citizens’ rights that was published on 26 June made clear that the fair and serious offer that we have made also covers dependants, including children.

The noble Lord, Lord Trees, talked about the shortage of vets following the UK exit. We have made it clear that both the best and brightest will continue to be welcome to come to the UK, and future policy will be based on the future consideration of the evidence. I am sure the veterinary profession will want to contribute to that evidence picture. The noble Lord gave a number of significant statistics, and they will certainly form part of the consideration. The noble Lord also suggested that vets should be on the shortage occupation list. That list is produced by the independent Migration Advisory Committee, and the Government do not act independently of the MAC in this regard.

The noble Lord, Lord Stunell, talked about horticulture and construction facing a labour shortage. As long as the UK remains in the EU, EU citizens can come to the UK to work. Labour market statistics show that there are 171,000 more EU citizens in the UK labour market than a year ago. The noble Lord also asked me whether the Government would consider that construction was a key industry, and when HMG would reply to the Farmer and Morel reports. We absolutely recognise the importance of construction, which is why the Government have invested in skills and apprenticeships. We also need to encourage house builders to move to modern methods of construction. I will write to the noble Lord about the reports that he referred to.

The noble Lord, Lord Trees, asked what steps the Government were taking to make it clear to EU nationals that they are welcome in the UK. We have made it clear that so long as the UK remains a part of the EU, EU citizens have full rights to come here and remain welcome. We have made this point clearly and repeatedly.

The noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Eames, and the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, make important points about the common travel area between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, particularly for those who live in the border areas of Northern Ireland and southern Ireland. Maintaining that common travel area with the Republic of Ireland and protecting the high level of operational co-operation that underpins it will be an important priority for the UK in the talks ahead. There has been a common travel area between the UK and the Republic of Ireland for many years—in fact, since before the two countries were members of the EU—and that reflects the historical, social, political and economic ties between its members. We will work to deliver as soon as we can a practical solution that allows the maintenance of the CTA within the Republic while protecting the integrity of the UK’s immigration system. I reassure the noble and right reverend Lord that this consideration is not secondary but incredibly important in maintaining that frictionless border.

The noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, asked whether the UK was being flexible in negotiations. Of course the UK adopts a constructive approach to negotiation. We want to secure an agreement that works for both the UK and the EU. However, I do not propose to lay out the UK’s negotiating strategy this evening, as the noble Earl will probably understand.

I am running out of time, but I would like to make this last point. The noble Lords, Lord Judd and Lord Bilimoria, and the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb, made the point that we are not a popular destination for international students. We are the second most popular destination for international students, behind only the USA. There are over 400,000 international students in the UK, and in answer to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Oates, about them being welcome, there is no limit on the number of students coming here and we do not intend to impose one. Visa applications sponsored by universities are 17% higher than they were in 2010, while visa applications to Russell Group universities are 48% higher than in 2010. Around 99% of student entry clearance visas are decided within 15 days, and the number of tier 4 students from China has risen year on year.

I have run out of time. I think this has been an incredibly valuable debate. As I have said, we are in listening mode and we have not made up our minds on many of the issues covered. I am grateful to have heard noble Lords’ views, and I hope I have been able to provide some reassurance about the Government’s approach on this issue.

Terrorist Attacks

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Cormack

Thursday 22nd June 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I say to the noble Baroness that the Prime Minister and the Home Secretary’s Statement on Monday was met with great praise, certainly from the Muslim community in Greater Manchester, because it expressed the same horror with regard to what went on on Monday as to what had gone on in previous terrorist events. I think that might be what the noble Baroness was pointing to.

I cannot go through the criteria for Channel, but broadly speaking it is a voluntary mechanism that is in place for people who are at risk of radicalisation. It does not target people who are at risk of radicalisation; it tries to protect them. That is the most important aspect of the Prevent programme. There have been 1,000 Channel referrals over the last few years, 25% of which, by the way, related to the far right. I am confident that Prevent is working. We have disrupted people from going abroad to fight foreign fighters.

On the noble Baroness’s point about language, I have already said this to my noble friend but I will reiterate it: we have to be careful about the language that we use. I can speak most of all for Manchester because I was there in the aftermath of the attack. The coming together of communities is our strength. There are things that government can do, but communities are very powerful bodies. I stood in Albert Square while we had the vigil and I saw people from all races, creeds and colours. The Sikh community were giving out water to people, and there was a great sense of coming together. Afterwards I stood with Afzal Khan at the British Muslim Heritage Centre in Whalley Range. For me, that immediate response from communities and that coming together are among the most powerful things that have come out of the attacks in Manchester.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, should we not bear in mind that we are pandering to the terrorists the longer we delay the resumption of normal activities after a terrorist outrage? I condemn utterly what was done, but I believe that the suspension of ordinary activities was a little prolonged and gave them a victory.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

As my noble friend knows, terrorists do not like democracy. We certainly had to perform a balancing act in the wake of the terrorist attacks. We wanted to give respect to the dead, which was extremely important. The feeling in Manchester was visceral; these were little children who had been murdered. I thought that after the Manchester attack it was right to give a longer period of respect during the election period. However, we did not want democracy thwarted either, so after the third attack, which was so close to the general election, activity was resumed at a much quicker pace. I think we got the balance right, and I think the cross-party view was that we got the balance right.