Equality Act 2010 (Specific Duties and Public Authorities) Regulations 2017

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Lester of Herne Hill

Tuesday 28th February 2017 Grand Committee

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I thank both noble Lords for their thoughtful contributions. I think there is broad support for what we are bringing forward but I shall answer some of the specific questions the noble Lords asked.

The first question from the noble Baroness, Lady Gale, was about why the number of employees was not lower than 250. We estimate that the obligations for authorities with 250 or more employees will affect more than 3.8 million employees in the public sector, and that means they will be covered by the new gender pay gap reporting requirements. Indeed, the combined coverage of these regulations and the Equality Act 2010 (Gender Pay Gap Information) Regulations 2017 will be over 15 million employees in 9,000 organisations, representing nearly half the total workforce. In addition, public bodies with more than 150 employees are already required to report on the diversity of their workforce and are encouraged to publish gender pay gap information.

We are keen in the first instance to place the same requirements of gender pay reporting across all employers to ensure consistency and comparability, so we have started in the public sector with that 250 threshold, which matches the threshold in Section 78 of the Equality Act. However, we will keep the threshold under review, and I think that review period will be reviewed by the Minister for Women and Equalities five years after commencement. Although this is the formal point for reviewing the new obligations, we will be closely monitoring compliance on a more regular basis to ensure that the measures are effective and working properly. With regard to what the response was to the public consultation about the proposed scope, the majority agreed that gender pay gap obligations should apply to authorities with 250 or more employees.

The noble Baroness asked whether the reporting requirements were too narrow. The regulations do not require mandatory equality objectives connected to gender pay gap data or, indeed, action plans. However, all employers will be strongly encouraged to publish information on how they intend to tackle the gender pay gap in their organisations. Many public bodies have actually indicated that they are keen to publish that narrative alongside their gender pay gap calculations, so that they can provide more context for any gender pay differences and highlight work to reduce any gaps.

Transparency may not be a silver bullet, as the noble Lord said, but it will incentivise employers to analyse the drivers behind their gender pay gap and explore the extent to which their own policies and practices may be contributing to it. The regulations that will apply to the public sector will not include an explicit requirement for a senior official to sign a statement or authenticate an organisation’s gender pay gap, but this is in line with the existing obligations under the specific duties regulations.

The noble Baroness asked what assessment has been made of the effect of tribunal fees for people with protected characteristics. The review of the employment tribunal fees, published on 31 January this year, confirms that the objectives have been broadly met and that the current scheme is generally working effectively and operating lawfully. However, that does not mean there is no room for improvement. In particular, the fall in claims and the evidence that some people have found fees off-putting have persuaded us that some action is necessary, so we launched a consultation on 31 January regarding the proposal to widen the support available to people under the help with fees scheme. This would help people with low incomes and is expected to particularly benefit women, disabled people and people from black and minority ethnic backgrounds, who figure disproportionately among those in low-income groups.

The noble Baroness also asked: will the Government be publishing league tables to name and shame employers? The public will be able to search the government website to check whether employers in scope have complied with the regulations and compare them with other employers in the same sector. We will consider the most effective way to present the published information in discussion with a wide range of stakeholders but, as I am sure the noble Baroness and the noble Lord know, the press soon get hold of such figures, so we can probably rely on them to highlight the success and failure stories.

[Lord Lester of Herne Hill]

I hope that we can also rely on the Equality and Human Rights Commission, which is funded for this purpose. I forgot to mention the issue of access to tribunals. It is my view as a lawyer that it is unlawful and an obstruction of justice to do what has been done to the employment tribunal fees, because they deter people with discrimination cases. I bet that if it goes to the European Court of Human Rights it will declare it to be incompatible, so I am glad that the Government are moving on that.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I thank the noble Lord for that and will come to the EHRC shortly to give a bit more detail.

The noble Baroness also asked why the Government have rejected the recommendation from the Women and Equalities Select Committee to reduce the gender pay gap. We appreciate and recognise the important work that the committee does on this issue, and we carefully considered its recommendations. The report makes a number of recommendations for the Government, several of which have already been actioned. For example, the right to request flexible working already allows those working fewer than full-time hours to request the opportunity to work more. Many of the recommendations made by the Select Committee would involve significant cost to businesses and we are keen not to place too heavy a burden on employers at this time.

We crossed into the equal pay realm. I thought I might make the point at this juncture that pay discrimination and the size of an employer’s gender pay gap are two quite different things, but I am sure that the noble Lord knows that, given his background.

The noble Baroness talked about pregnancy and maternity discrimination. That is unlawful as well as unacceptable and has no place in today’s society. The Government are working with a range of partners, including the EHRC and ACAS to promote opportunities for women, including pregnant women and new mothers. That will ensure that female talent is recognised and rewarded, and make more employers aware of their legal obligations.

I turn to the EHRC’s failure to ensure compliance. The EHRC takes a proportionate approach to enforcement, resolving many matters via pre-enforcement work and using its formal enforcement powers when absolutely necessary. It also takes a strategic approach to enforcement, focusing on those issues where it can have an impact on systemic, persistent and/or pervasive inequalities. Many less strategic cases are resolved through pre-enforcement work, involving discussions with organisations to encourage them to meet their obligations.

The noble Lord, Lord Lester, may draw some comfort from the fact that when the Women and Equalities Select Committee examined the EHRC’s chair and CEO in January, it asked searching questions about why its enforcement and compliance work, potentially involving legal interventions, seemed so limited. The EHRC’s chair, David Isaac, who the noble Lord mentioned, agreed that putting more resource into enforcement and compliance is a priority for him. Let us see what progress it makes in the coming year.

Finally, the noble Lord mentioned the Ruby McGregor-Smith review. It is an industry-led review, so we are going into a slightly different realm, but I shall not split hairs about that. The Government believe that non-legislative solutions are the right approach for now, but we will monitor progress and stand ready to act if sufficient progress is not delivered.

I am sure that noble Lords will remember this time last year, when the number of women on boards was a push for the Government and we tried to do it in a non-legislative way. That yielded very good results, so we always try the non-legislative way first before taking action, but we will always take action if we need to.

I hope that noble Lords are satisfied with those responses and thank them for taking part in this debate.

Policing and Crime Bill

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Lester of Herne Hill

Ping Pong (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 18th January 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lester of Herne Hill (LD)]

When I was young at the Bar there used to be a judge whose concurring judgments were commendably brief—he would simply say, “I agree”. I can say that about the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Pannick—I agree with him—and would add a few words. I declare an interest because I have given evidence in the consultation on why Section 40 is, in my view, arbitrary, discriminatory and contrary to freedom of speech and should not be brought into force. I have not given evidence on the other question in the consultation to which the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, referred, upon which many views have been expressed. I agree with what the noble Lord said about that.

As I have said again and again in debates in this House, Parliament has not shown itself to be fair minded in the way it amended two Bills in order to create a scheme to bully the newspapers into entering a regulatory framework other than the one now being admirably well conducted by Lord Justice Moses—IPSO. Contrary to what the noble Baroness, Lady O’Neill, has said, we now have an effective system of voluntary press regulation and the state and politicians ought to give it breathing space. I wish to make that clear.

When I was young I began believing in the philosophy of John Stuart Mill. That is why I am a Liberal. I remain a Liberal today, and that is why I am sympathetic to the Government’s position.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I shall respond first to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick. He is right to assert that Sir Brian Leveson will be consulted formally in due course in his role as the inquiry chair before any decision is taken. The noble Lord also made a point about the cost and other issues that have already been addressed. Lord Justice Leveson said:

“Before leaving the Ruling, I add one further comment … If the transparent way in which the Inquiry has been conducted, the Report and the response by government and the press (along with a new acceptable regulatory regime) addresses the public concern, at the conclusion of any trial or trials, consideration can be given by everyone to the value to be gained from a further inquiry into Part 2. That inquiry will involve yet more enormous cost (both to the public purse and the participants); it will trawl over material then more years out of date and is likely to take longer than the present Inquiry which has not over focussed on individual conduct”.


On the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady O’Neill, about Parliament voting on part 2 of the inquiry, in fact Parliament did not vote on part 2; the inquiry was established by Ministers under the powers of the 2005 Act. Parliament voted on Section 40, but in this Motion we are talking not about Section 40, but about Leveson 2.

On the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, about the Government already deciding to abandon part 2, as I hope I have explained, we have not made a decision on this; we want to take a view on it as part of the ongoing consultation. It is five years since the inquiry was established and since the scope of part 2 was set. We think a consultation is needed before a decision is made on whether proceeding with part 2 of the inquiry, on either its original or its amended terms of reference, is still in the public interest. In response to the point from the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, as I said, we will consult with Sir Brian Leveson formally in his role as the inquiry chair before any decision is taken.

Policing and Crime Bill

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Lester of Herne Hill

Report: 3rd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 12th December 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I think I addressed that right at the beginning of my speech, when I said that the Government completely acknowledge the pain that some people have gone through in the course of the last few years—and in the course of history—due to being wrongly accused of crimes which they did not commit. I absolutely acknowledge that point. The noble Lord, Lord Pannick, and the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, said that it is an incredibly difficult issue, and I recognise that.

I was going to say something else. The College of Policing is currently developing—

[Lord Lester of Herne Hill]

The Minister acknowledges that there is a problem and that there have been cases of monstrous injustice to individuals. Several of us have asked whether the Government will go forward, not backwards, with some alternative to either of these amendments. Can she tell us precisely what she proposes to do, with revised guidance, codes of practice or anything else, so that we can be satisfied that the Government will solve the problem?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I was just about to say—I do not know whether the noble Lord will be satisfied by it—that the College of Policing is currently developing authorised professional practice on media relations, and its guidance makes it clear that decisions should be made only on a case-by-case basis when it comes to the releasing of names. I am not sure that I have satisfied noble Lords but I have tried to explain how we have tried to achieve balance in the protection of anonymity for persons who are accused pre-charge.

Prevent Strategy

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Lester of Herne Hill

Wednesday 26th October 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lester of Herne Hill]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they intend to set up an independent inquiry to evaluate the operation of their Prevent strategy.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, Prevent is a key part of the UK’s counterterrorism strategy, Contest. Since 2011 we have expanded Prevent to take account of the changing scale and nature of the terrorist threat. Prevent is working; it is safeguarding people from being drawn into terrorism. The statistics on Prevent delivery are reported in the Contest annual report. We have committed to updating Contest in 2016 and Prevent will be included as part of that refresh.

[Lord Lester of Herne Hill (LD)]

My Lords, I think that what the Minister said was no, the Government have no intention of supporting an independent inquiry. Am I right in that? Could I also ask her whether she is aware that my Question is being asked not just by me but by two Independent Reviewers of Terrorism Legislation—my noble friend Lord Carlile of Berriew and David Anderson QC—the Joint Committee on Human Rights and last week by the Open Society Justice Initiative in its report? I should declare an interest as a former board member of that organisation. Is she aware therefore that many more people than I think that it is now urgent to restore mutual trust and confidence by having an independent inquiry?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I was not aware that the noble Lord was speaking on behalf of others because his was the only name attached to the Question—but I take his point. My Answer was not actually “no” in the sense that we review how effective Prevent is being all the time. The previous Home Secretary, now the Prime Minister, commissioned an internal Home Office review of Prevent which concluded that it should be strengthened, not undermined, and made 12 suggestions on how to do so. Those suggestions are being brought forward as part of the Contest strategy review this year.

Caste-based Discrimination

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Lester of Herne Hill

Monday 11th July 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

We probably should not hold up the discussion. The noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries, asked why caste is different and said it was more expensive for claimants to pursue a case in this way. I cannot see how the inclusion of the single word “caste” in the Act would reduce the cost of bringing a discrimination case or make any difference to the tribunal fees or other costs, given the precedent set by the judgment in Tirkey v Chandhok.

The noble Lord, Lord Cashman, said that the EAT judgment makes it clear that domestic law on race must reflect international law and the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination. He asked why the Government did not accept this and bring the Equality Act into line with our international obligations by putting caste into it. The Government’s view is that the UK is already fully compliant with our international obligations in this area. That is borne out by the decision reached in the EAT case.

The noble Lords, Lord Cashman and Lord Lester of Herne Hill, said it was unacceptable for the Government to wait for clarification of the case law. We accept that in Tirkey v Chandhok, Justice Langstaff was clear that his judgment was fact-specific and not a definite statement that all potential caste cases could be covered by the ethnic origins provision. However, he did not identify any aspects of caste that could not be so covered, and so far neither have we.

[Lord Lester of Herne Hill]

My Lords, I took only three minutes for my speech and therefore I feel entitled to ask the Minister unequivocally to reply to my question, which she has not done. Am I right in interpreting what she said as being, “No, we do not intend to legislate”?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I will try to be clear by the time I get to the end what my answer ultimately is. As the noble Lord, Lord Deben, said, we have a new Prime Minister today. He also made the point that the judgment is not binding and could be overturned at the next caste-related case.

Judgments set at the Employment Appeal Tribunal level are binding. The judgment could potentially be overturned by a higher court, but that is the same for all case law decisions, short of the Supreme Court. The precedent set by Tirkey v Chandhok has stood since 2014 and we are not aware of any potential challenge to it. If there were such a challenge, as I have said before, the Government would certainly be prepared to consider intervening to ensure that the judgment was upheld.

I finish with the noble Lord, Lord Deben, in saying that the new Government must stand up and obey the law. I agree that this is an issue which the new Administration, led by the new Prime Minister, who herself was Minister for Women and Equalities from 2010 to 2012, will need to consider afresh, and I am sure that they will. I knew this debate would raise feelings on both sides, and it has. It is a complex issue, which is why the Government have been diligently considering the implications of the judgment.

I thank the noble and right reverend Lord for raising this important issue in the Chamber, and all noble Lords for their valuable contributions. I close by repeating what I said earlier. I believe that we all want the same thing, which is to ensure that there is an appropriate level of protection for everyone against the harm of caste discrimination. I know the whole House supports this aim. The real question is how best to achieve that for the benefit of everyone, which is exactly what this Government are currently considering.

Caste Discrimination

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Lester of Herne Hill

Wednesday 15th July 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, it would not be appropriate for me to speculate on discussions within government. I do not want to comment on or rule out any course of action. As I have said a couple of times now, the Government are considering the present position.

[Lord Lester of Herne Hill (LD)]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Lester of Herne Hill]

Will the Minister explain how her replies are compatible with parliamentary supremacy, given that Parliament decided to insert the duty into the statute? Will she also explain how it is compatible with legal certainty, given that the only way one could do it through case law would be by going to the Supreme Court, at a cost of many hundreds of thousands of pounds, when Parliament has decided that it should be done by us by statute?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I repeat once again that the Government will be actively considering this, and will take their view in due course.

Cities and Local Government Devolution Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Lester of Herne Hill

Monday 13th July 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I will address the noble Lord’s point shortly.

Amendment 4 would insert a new subsection into new Section 107B to allow the Secretary of State to refuse to make an order providing for there to be a mayor if the proposal put forward by the area does not provide sufficient democratic accountability, does not have the support of local authority electors or would risk the proper functioning of local government in the area. Not only is this unnecessary, given that the Secretary of State always has a judgment as to whether to make an order; it does not reflect the context in which the provisions of the Bill will be used: to implement bespoke devolution deals agreed with areas—to be precise, agreed with those democratically elected to represent the area and who are accountable to it through the ballot box. It would be quite wrong to have considerations for devolution deals that in some way sought to have the Secretary of State second-guessing those local democratically elected representatives, or turning discussion of the deal into some sort of tick-box exercise.

[Lord Lester of Herne Hill]

Is the Minister saying, therefore, that the factors in proposed paragraphs (a), (b) and (c) in Amendment 4 would be irrelevant considerations that the Secretary of State would not be entitled to take into account?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I am saying that it will be an agreement between the Secretary of State and local electors that will determine what the deal looks like, if that helps.