Metropolitan Police: Misconduct

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate

Wednesday 19th October 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate (Non-Afl)]

My Lords—

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

My Lords, I think we have a bit of time, so let us hear from my noble friend Lord Hailsham, followed by the noble Lord.

Criminal Trials: Intercept Evidence

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate

Wednesday 9th June 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness for giving me notice of the fact that she was going to raise this issue; it is not really part of this Question, but that never stops her. As I said, we do not use intercept warrants as court evidence. In terms of who would authorise what, the Home Office would authorise its various agencies, the Foreign Office its agencies and the Northern Ireland Office its agencies, so it would be for those Secretaries of State to authorise those warrants.

[Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate (Non-Afl) [V]]

My Lords, the interception of telephone calls or voicemails is normally an egregious breach of personal privacy, and some tabloids have paid the penalty for that. I declare an interest as a victim of hacking. However, that is different from law enforcement using intercept methods, properly regulated by the UK police and security authorities. Does the Minister agree that such techniques are essential to facilitate the gathering of essential evidence, as exemplified, as has been mentioned, by the FBI sting yesterday using the ANOM app, leading to over 800 arrests worldwide, and that, provided that it is used and regulated properly by the law, it is a legitimate tool protecting our citizens from organised and violent criminals?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

That is a very good question to end on. The noble Lord raises the huge benefit of what the NCA has achieved through operations like Venetic. I will read out the figures: 746 individuals arrested and £54 million, 77 firearms and over 2 tonnes of drugs seized. That is an incredible achievement that goes towards keeping our citizens safe.

Police National Computer

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate

Tuesday 19th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate (Non-Afl) [V]]

My Lords, the development of the police national computer, in which I was involved many years ago, was a massive leap in the progress of law enforcement in the UK. As the noble Baroness well knows, the value of real-time data from the PNC is critical to all front-line police officers. DNA and fingerprint evidence is also essential, not only in convicting but in establishing innocence in our courts, in historic and current investigations. For the record, I agree with her that, once taken, DNA should be retained forever. Can she shine any more light on how the error occurred? Can she also give your Lordships any idea of whether it will be possible to recover all or part of the lost data, which is perhaps also held elsewhere?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

I am very happy to give the noble Lord an update: last week the Home Office became aware that, as a result of human error, the software which triggers these automatic deletions contained defective coding and had inadvertently deleted records that it should not have and had not deleted some records which should have been deleted. An estimated 213,000 offence records, 175,000 arrest records and 15,000 person records are now being investigated as potentially having been deleted. It is worth explaining to the House, which I did not do before, that multiple records can obviously be held against the same individual, as the noble Lord will know.

On how we dealt with it, on the same day as the Home Office became aware of it, engineers put a stop to the automated process to ensure that no further deletions took place. All similar automatic processes have also been suspended. Earlier last week, Home Office civil servants and engineers worked very quickly to alert the police and other operational colleagues, and established a bronze, silver and gold command to manage the incident and co-ordinate a rapid response. The noble Lord will have heard me say to two previous speakers just what the process will be over the next few days.

Law Enforcement: Brexit Impacts

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate

Wednesday 6th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

My right honourable friend Theresa May was probably right to give it qualified support. We have not seen how it will work yet. I am confident it will work well and I am sure that this House will scrutinise any deficiencies in the new arrangements. We have a very good package for the safety and security of the citizens of this country.

[Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate (Non-Afl) [V]]

My Lords, real-time access to intelligence is crucial in the fight against serious organised crime and terrorism. Can the Minister assure the House that any reduced capability to access such information in a timely manner will not increase the risk level in the United Kingdom, thereby endangering UK citizens from January 2021?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

My Lords, timely access and cross-border co-operation benefits not only the UK but the EU. The noble Lord talks about serious and organised crime, which knows no borders and is global. It is incumbent on all of us to work together to stem its flow.

Security Co-operation

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate

Wednesday 2nd December 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

We have always said that there would be a mutual loss of capability in the event that the UK no longer had access to SIS II. That is why we have offered to reach an agreement with the EU that delivers a similar capability. The Commission has stated its view that it is not legally possible for a non-Schengen third country to co-operate through SIS II and that a future agreement between the UK and the EU need not provide similar capabilities. We regret this and have maintained our offer to the EU.

[Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate (Non-Afl) [V]]

My Lords, the sharing of intelligence and the importance of close co-operation between the UK and our friends throughout Europe is well proven. I could cite several examples clearly showing that it keeps us all safe and has prevented terrorist attacks throughout the continent. What assurance can the Minister give your Lordships’ House that there will be no lessening of this close partnership after the end of the implementation period on 1 January 2021?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

I assure the noble Lord that the UK will continue to work with our European partners to counter, as he said, the terrorist threats we face in Europe and beyond. We have world-leading expertise on counterterrorism and countering violent extremism, which we will continue to share with EU member states as appropriate.

LGBT Community: Domestic Abuse

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate

Tuesday 24th November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

I do not disagree that the provision of domestic abuse support across the country is patchy. It has been that way for quite some time, hence the duty of care on first-tier local authorities in their provision of services. The domestic abuse commissioner, Nicole Jacobs, is undertaking an assessment of where the gaps might lie and where we can improve them, particularly for community-based services.

[Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate (Non-Afl) [V]]

My Lords, domestic violence of all kinds often remains unreported because of the fear of retribution at the hands of the perpetrator. As the Minister knows, this is particularly acute during periods of lockdown. She will also be aware that a speedy police response can be life-saving in such a case. Is she satisfied that the dangerous, old-fashioned mantra that it is “only a domestic” is being expunged, and that the training of first responders emphasises the requirement for particular vigilance in this regard during the Covid-19 pandemic?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

It is interesting that the noble Lord says that, because that is precisely the debate that we had yesterday. What some years ago might have been described as just a domestic is now being dealt with far more sensitively and properly by the police, including with the use of domestic abuse prevention orders, so that the moment that the victim—he or she, though it is usually a she—reports something to the police, it is immediately dealt with.

UK Terrorism Threat Level

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate

Tuesday 10th November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate (Non-Afl) [V]]

My Lords, in the light of the evidence so far given to the public inquiry into the Manchester Arena bombing, is the Minister satisfied that private security officers on the front line of such events are properly briefed by the police and, perhaps more importantly, that they are professionally trained to a national standard, perhaps approved by the police?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

As a former policeman, the noble Lord will understand that making a running commentary on an ongoing inquiry is something that I really would not want to do. He makes an important point about training and ensuring that those who are on the front line are sufficiently trained in the jobs that they do.

Life in the UK Test

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate

Tuesday 3rd November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

The test costs £50 and the handbook costs £12.99. I have recognised before in your Lordships’ House that the cost of citizenship is high for some individuals. In terms of ESOL, I recognise that all these things are a cost to the individual who undertakes them. There is assistance for people who cannot afford to pay the cost. For example, two or three years ago MHCLG provided free English language teaching for people.

[Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate (Non-Afl) [V]]

My Lords, having seen the Life in the UK test, I have come to the conclusion that many British citizens would be unable to answer many of the questions. Therefore, it is important that the test and supporting learning material should be reviewed regularly to make them topical and relevant. Will the Minister join me in congratulating those people from other countries who work extremely hard to pass the test, resulting in them becoming citizens of the best country in the world?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

My Lords, I certainly join the noble Lord in congratulating everyone who has passed the test. I think the pass rate is between 80% and 90%.

Emergency Services Network

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate

Thursday 24th September 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

My Lords, I will keep away from politics and say that, to meet DCMS’s original requirement relating to 5G RAN only, EE had already anticipated that a proportion of Huawei 4G RAN equipment would need to be replaced with equipment supplied by other vendors, and this would be increased to meet the new requirement for 5G.

[Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate (Non-Afl) [V]]

My Lords, communications are clearly critical within and between the emergency services in dealing with major incidents. Could the Minister tell the House whether there have been essential improvements in comms technology recently, allowing better communications and connections between and within responder services? Have improvements been made? Can she guarantee that improvements are being made in communications in underground locations?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

What I should say to the noble Lord is that the testing of the product is the essential bit in terms of gaining that confidence that noble Lords have talked about that the ESN will get online and will work, as the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, said, underground, above ground and in remote areas.

Covid-19: Domestic Abuse

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate

Monday 29th June 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, funding has been announced for the coming year. The noble Baroness is right that sustainable sources of funding need to be there in order for charities to be able to plan. Since 2016, £100 million has been awarded to VAWG services.

[Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate (Non-Afl) [V]]

My Lords, speaking of a recent report on family courts, the Victims’ Commissioner recently said:

“This panel of experts has dug deep to understand, and address, the serious harm to domestic abuse victims and their children caused over many years by the presumption of”


the right of contact, and that

“victims and children are in need of better protections from abusive perpetrators.”

Does the Minister agree, and do the Government intend to act on this report?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I totally agree with the noble Lord that perpetrators will use the family courts to abuse their victims yet further by putting pressure on them and by appearing in court. The Government are absolutely aware of that, and moves are in place to ensure that perpetrators cannot cross-examine their victims in court.

Public Order

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate

Tuesday 9th June 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I agree absolutely with my noble friend. It is not only best that it is done quickly, but it is what the public expects.

[Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate (Non-Afl) [V]]

My Lords, when watching the violent destruction of the statue in Bristol on Sunday, I was struck by the absence of any police presence. Sir Robert Peel, in founding the police in 1829, stated that the basic mission for which the police exists is to prevent crime and disorder. Does the noble Baroness believe that the Avon and Somerset police force fulfilled that mission?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, the way in which the police organise themselves for various situations is of course a matter for the police. Reflecting on the words of the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, I think that it is quite often the case that, early on, things seem to be quite peaceful and then suddenly they get out of order. However, I am sure that reflections on the events on Sunday will lead to some lessons learned.

Pre-charge Police Bail: Time Limit

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate

Wednesday 26th February 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I had a feeling that there might be an “I told you so” moment today. The noble Lord is absolutely right: he and others did question the length of time. However, I recall that I was quite clear at the time that we would review this and clearly it is time for review, hence the consultation and our intention to do something about it.

[Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, does the noble Baroness agree that this Question is very relevant to the subject of domestic abuse? She will know about the case of Kay Richardson, who was murdered by her estranged husband in Sunderland in 2018 after he had been released under investigation. He had a history of domestic abuse and she had reported him for rape. Under the previous provisions, he would have been bailed with conditions. The difficulty is that there are no conditions attached to releasing under investigation. There should be a power to release suspects under investigation where necessary with enforceable safe -guarding conditions. Does the Minister agree?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I totally recognise the point that the noble Lord makes about domestic abuse. Our proposals will ensure that bail is used in most domestic abuse and sexual offences where necessary and proportionate. The noble Lord makes a perfectly valid point.

Metropolitan Police: Use of Section 14 of the Public Order Act 1986

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate

Wednesday 16th October 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

On the final point, the noble Lord will know that it is an operational matter for the police to make that judgment call; that is what they have done. He said, “Extradition Rebellion” —I think he meant Extinction Rebellion. On whether the police could impose conditions not allowing these people on the roads, the condition was actually on assembling in Trafalgar Square. It has been very difficult to engage with these people. The MPS—the Metropolitan Police Service—still stands ready to engage but, to date, that engagement has been very difficult.

[Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate (Non-Afl)]

My Lords—

Public Spaces Protection Orders

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate

Thursday 11th July 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Lord will recognise that the reasons for rough sleeping are many and complex and the sole fact that someone is homeless is not, in itself, a reason to slap them with a PSPO. On housing, we are investing £9 billion in more affordable homes across the country and have delivered over 400,000 such homes since 2010.

[Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, anti-social behaviour has taken many forms over the years. In my experience, dealing with it can also take several forms. One of the easiest is to have sufficient police officers on the street to nip it in the bud as it occurs. That always proved valuable in my time. The problem at present is that we do not have the front- line officers with time to deal with it courteously and compassionately.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

Policing is only one aspect of dealing with rough sleeping and homelessness, which are different things. The noble Lord is absolutely right that we need police on the streets, hence my right honourable friend the Home Secretary’s ambition to have far more of them. The rough sleeping initiative has allocated £46 million this year to 246 areas. This has funded an estimated additional 750 staff and more than 2,600 bed spaces across England.

Metal Theft

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate

Wednesday 26th June 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Earl raises the general issue of metal theft. In terms of an analysis of which sculptures are vulnerable, they are clearly protected from theft in varying degrees. I will take his point back to the department because I do not have any facts or figures on it in front of me. I do not suppose that sculpture is any less vulnerable to metal theft than other types of metal structures are.

[Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate (Non-Afl)]

Bearing in mind that the theft of metal from railways, as referred to in the Question, can be very serious, is the Minister satisfied that co-operation between the British Transport Police and the local police forces which would probably check the scrapyards is as good and effective as it might be? I do not know whether it already does so, but is there a case for allowing the British Transport Police to check scrapyards in cases where there has been serious theft from railway premises?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

As I said to the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, it is the job of the police and local authorities to enforce the lawfulness of scrap metal exchanges at scrapyards. As the noble Lord, Lord Mackenzie, said, the theft of metal from railway lines can be not only a treacherous undertaking but, in many cases, fatal. The deterrent must come from the point of view of protecting both the people who might take those risks and the scrapyards that might receive stolen goods.

Brexit: Border Controls

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate

Wednesday 19th June 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

As I just said, we have strengthened both our field intelligence capabilities and our search capabilities for smaller ports. As the noble Lord said, a chain is only as strong as its weakest link and, of course, as we strengthen some ports, people will try to find inroads into the smaller ones.

[Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, tackling the smuggling of firearms and drugs clearly requires our services, whether the Border Force or the police, to co-operate with our European partners. Does the Minister think that this will be helped if we crash out of Europe without a deal?

Stalking

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate

Tuesday 14th May 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

On the noble Baroness’s second question, she is absolutely right: the Government were challenged, and I was challenged, by Emma Watson on Friday about the fact that we had not yet ratified the Istanbul convention. She is also right to link it to domestic abuse, because it will be the domestic abuse Bill that will enable us, through the definition, to ratify the convention.

I think I have previously been clear that a series of separate registers could fragment the system that we have. Dangerous and violent stalkers should already be captured on ViSOR and managed through MAPPA if appropriate.

[Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that stalking can be an obsessive crime and is quite often related to mental illness? Of course, it can lead to murder. I dealt with a case recently where the accused was a foreign national. Importantly, he was convicted of the crime and eventually deported. The police need to take the issue seriously and senior officers need to supervise those on the front line who deal with these incidents. Quite often, they deal with them as domestic disputes, which of course they are not.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Lord is absolutely right to point out that stalking is, at its heart, an obsessive undertaking. Often these obsessions are linked to mental conditions and the police need to recognise what stalking looks like. We have, therefore, talked about training, which is the only way to catch perpetrators and, in many cases, to bring them to justice.

Identity Cards

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate

Tuesday 30th April 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Earl is absolutely right, and that was at the heart of our reason, in the coalition years, for resisting the idea of ID cards. He will of course know that I do not remember the war.

[Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that the pass I am wearing is a very useful identity card in a sense but that we rely more on the skills of the doorkeepers and the people who know us, rather than this identity card? Would it not be better to have a card that identified the holder with the card? It would then be a biometric identity card and would clearly identify, at a minute’s notice, people coming into the country and people stopped by the police. It would be far better than what we have at the moment. Passports have biometric information on them and we use them, so how do identity cards differ? Clearly, they would help in the fight against terrorism and serious crime.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I disagree with the noble Lord that it would clearly help in the fight against terrorism. As we have seen in Europe, certainly over the last few years, identity cards are widespread but this has not helped in the fight against terrorism. The noble Lord talks about his pass and he is absolutely right: this pass is a specific thing for a specific purpose and, yes, the doormen are incredibly vigilant in the work they do, for which I have the greatest respect. But he describes why identity cards would probably not be a good thing.

Police: Recruitment Criteria

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate

Tuesday 2nd April 2019 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, this Government’s reforms are designed to make the police workforce more capable, flexible and professional. We established the College of Policing as the first professional body for policing, charged with setting standards, including for police recruitment. The college has implemented a major reform of entry routes through its policing education qualification framework, which will ensure that policing can continue to attract the brightest and best recruits from a wide range of backgrounds.

[Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate (Non-Afl)]

I thank the Minister for her reply. Is she aware of the four pilot schemes—taking place, I believe, at the instigation of the College of Policing—in Nottinghamshire, Derbyshire, Leicestershire and south Wales, which require all recruits to undertake a three-year apprenticeship leading to a university degree? My information is that this training would incur an additional cost of £24,000 per recruit, with failure by the recruit leading presumably to dismissal. I understand that other forces are committed to this route for recruiting by 2020. Does the Minister think this is a wise use of taxpayers’ hard-earned money, when there is a clear public demand for thousands more front-line, well-trained police officers on the ground in communities, with or without degrees, reaping essential intelligence, responding to calls and reassuring the public at a time of unprecedented increase in serious, violent street crime?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

It is important to have a wide range of entry routes for people who wish to join the police, which all conform to very high standards. I cannot comment on the cost that the noble Lord outlined, but it is really important that people should not have to have a degree to enter the police. There is no requirement for that, but the standard is set for degree-level qualification at the end of the training process.

Deportation: Jamaica

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate

Wednesday 6th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I am afraid that I cannot answer the noble Baroness’s exact question, but I will find out what proportion of BAME staff work in the Home Office and let her know that.

[Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, just for clarification, will the Minister explain that, when a foreign national is convicted of a criminal offence and receives a sentence of, I think, more than two years, they then qualify for deportation? It is probably a matter for the judge to make a recommendation and then the Home Office takes over to see whether there are any mitigating circumstances. Is that correct?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

It is actually a sentence of more than 12 months, but certainly Article 8 considerations are taken into consideration before someone is deported. The provision exists under the UK Borders Act to deport people who have been sentenced to 12 months’ or more imprisonment.

Shop Workers: Protection

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate

Wednesday 23rd January 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

As my noble friend said, the call for evidence is open; therefore, we must go through that process. I do not disagree with her about the behaviour that goes on in airports when people are intoxicated. I look forward to the results of the call for evidence.

[Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I recall the outcry from certain parts of the community about the attack on civil liberties when street cameras were introduced a few years ago. Does this Question not prove the value of using modern technology in the prevention and detection of crime?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Lord is absolutely right. As legislators, we must be consistent in protecting the public from the harms of crime and other things that take place on our streets. There is a balance to be struck between civil liberties, and protecting the public and keeping criminals off our streets.

Homophobic Hate Crime

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate

Tuesday 22nd January 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

Like the noble Lord, Lord Scriven, the noble Lord raises an important question. In general, the changes in the charge rates are likely to be the result of improved crime recording by the police, and of forces taking on more complex crimes, such as sexual offences, which of course take longer. We welcome the fact that more victims are coming forward and reporting crimes to the police. However, as I said to the noble Lord, Lord Scriven, the CPS and the police are working together to look at this disparity.

[Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, do the Government have any plans to extend the criminal law to cover people with disabilities, particularly online?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Lord raises another trend of hate crime online—that meted out against people with disabilities—which is particularly cruel. I have met with disability groups, such as Changing Faces, which noble Lords may have seen in the Telegraph campaign over Christmas. All the efforts we are making with regard to the online harms White Paper and the subsequent legislation will address that cohort of people as well.

Children: Gangs

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate

Thursday 10th May 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Lord is absolutely right that any work such as GAV’s is to be commended. We are not only developing some of the existing good practice but expanding our knowledge of the extent to which county lines are affecting our most vulnerable children. The noble Lord is right to point out that drugs market violence may be facilitated and spread by things such as social media—another area on which we need to clamp down.

[Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, is the Minister aware of the work done in Glasgow, where violence was dealt with as a disease? It was one of most violent cities in the world. The first thing to do was to stabilise the patient. Glasgow increased stop and search, and when knives and weapons were found the person carrying them was not simply released on bail but taken straight to the police station, detained and put before the court fairly quickly. The reduction in carrying weapons was quite dramatic. Can we learn something from the work done in Glasgow?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I am sure we can work on some of the initiatives in Glasgow. The noble Lord described it as a disease. These issues are multifactorial and include sociological and psychological factors depending on people’s experiences, particularly their early life experience. Tackling this preventively from a very young age is part of the answer.

Police: Independent Inquiries

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate

Thursday 19th April 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

As I said the other day, an inquiry of any form should be considered only where other available investigatory mechanisms would not be sufficient. I absolutely concur with this demand, which is repeatedly made from your Lordships’ House. My noble friend is correct that the Wiltshire PCC has it in his power to initiate such an inquiry.

[Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, does the new independent office of police misconduct have a role in this type of inquiry? It can of course initiate its own inquiries.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I should clarify that it is the Independent Office for Police Conduct rather than misconduct, as the noble Lord knows. The IOPC can investigate a matter referred to it, but it also has call-in powers to require referral. In terms of investigating a police force, the IOPC is independent of government and the Home Secretary does not have the power to direct it to investigate a force or any of its officers. The key functions of the IOPC include providing independent oversight of the police complaints and discipline system, considering appeals when people believe that a police investigation into a complaint has got it wrong, and carrying out its own investigations into the most serious and sensitive matters relating to police conduct.

Police: Undercover Officers

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate

Wednesday 21st March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I would love to stand at the Dispatch Box and say that certain things could never happen again, but nobody can legislate for the odd rogue undertaking or the malicious intent of people. Therefore, one cannot be absolutely certain that it could never happen again. What one can do is put measures in place to ensure, as far as possible, that it never happens again.

[Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that undercover policing is an essential tool in the fight against terrorism and crime and that, provided it is properly regulated and standards are adhered to, we should not judge the majority of very brave police officers who go undercover by the misdeeds of a few?

Crime: Scooter and Moped Gangs

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate

Tuesday 23rd January 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that question. We cannot be sure of the actual number of lost or stolen motorcycles being used across London to commit these crimes, but the Metropolitan Police Service reported a sharp increase in motorcycle-related offences in the year to June 2017. Recently, it has reported a fall in such crimes but it is too early to say whether that is the start of a sustained downward trend or a seasonal fall. I understand that the various partners and the Home Office had a meeting and will continue to work together to produce an action plan. As for the action that we are taking, we are working with the National Police Chiefs Council’s lead on vehicle crime, and we will be taking that forward as part of a high-level action plan to understand the drivers for such crimes.

[Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that, quite often, crime is driven by fashion and trends? I give as an example the racially motivated crimes of decades ago, the recent acid attacks and many other types of crime that are usually gang-related. As robbery carries a maximum sentence of life imprisonment, is it not really the job—once the perpetrators are arrested, particularly the ringleaders—of the judiciary to exact sentences as an example to others?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Lord is right that these crimes can become in themselves a fashion or a trend. With regard to the options open to the judiciary, clearly precedents can be set in respect of the types of crime committed in terms of future sentences meted out.

Deaths in Police Custody

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate

Monday 30th October 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I declare my interest as a former president of the Police Superintendents’ Association. Does the Minister agree that the police service is often the agency of last resort, and that many people who find themselves in police custody should not be there and should be dealt with by other agencies? That is not the fault of the police, of course, and is often a matter of funding and resources in many other areas. Does she also agree that one of the difficulties is being open and honest with the public? Historically, the police service, like many organisations, has closed ranks. The police service needs to be far more open and honest with the public. I think it is moving this way and I hope that issue is addressed in the report. I like to see senior officers prepared to go on television and make statements. Obviously, they should not disclose everything as we do not want that to affect the judicial system or judicial process. However, it is gratifying to members of the public, particularly grieving families, if the police appear to be open, honest and transparent without, as I say, compromising an investigation. There is a lot to welcome in the report. As has been suggested, I hope that the Government implement its provisions as soon as possible.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I thank the noble Lord for his points about openness and honesty with the public. Quite often, the heartache of bereaved families is made worse by a feeling that perhaps people have not been open and honest with them. A theme runs through the Government’s response—and, indeed, through Dame Elish’s report itself—which talks about transparency in the whole process. Therefore I totally agree, as do the Government, with the noble Lord’s point.

The noble Lord also talked about police services as the agency of last resort. If I learned anything in local government, it was about the multiagency approach of services working together. Whether in the custody arena or in child protection, when agencies work together and place people appropriately, that starts to end this system of people literally being dumped in the first place that people think of. That particularly applies to people with mental health problems, which is why I was so keen all those years ago to see places of safety established, and I am very pleased now to see that wherever possible, no child or adult with a mental health problem will be placed in police custody.

Police: Pension Rights

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate

Tuesday 21st March 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I agree with the noble Lord that, when the facts change, the Government change their mind. That is why in 2016, after decades of widows who remarry not being able to claim the survivor’s pension, the Government did indeed change their mind. The issue of retrospection is something about which no Government have changed their mind.

[Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I declare my interest as a current police pensioner. I have often heard Ministers both in this House and in the other place, and indeed at conferences, committing the Government to giving priority to the victims of crime. Does the Minister agree that in homicide cases the definition of victim by necessity applies to the spouses and partners, in this case of police officers who have died in the line of duty? Is there not therefore a justified need to reflect that in the pension arrangements for those officers?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I certainly recognise the difficulties faced by the families of members of the Armed Forces, the police service and the fire service and how they could be seen as the indirect victims of crime themselves. The noble Lord talks about provisions for death in the line of duty. There most certainly are awards under the police injury benefit arrangements which ensure that higher benefits are payable when an officer is killed in certain circumstances. These are broadly if death resulted while seeking to apprehend a suspect, protecting life, or if the officer was targeted for the reason of being a police officer. I take this opportunity to recognise the incredible public service that police officers, fire officers and our Armed Forces make to public life.

National Identity Cards

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate

Tuesday 14th March 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

One of the reasons why the Conservative Party opposed identity cards was because of the civil liberties issue which the noble Lord outlined. However, he is absolutely right to point out that the Government should also always be mindful of privacy versus the advances in technology that such information can give us.

[Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, given that most terrorists and professional criminals use multiple identities in committing crime, is it not self-evident that a biometric identity card would be an advantage in changing policy?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, the biometric card would not be any more robust than some of the systems which we have in place. In fact, there is evidence that it is just as liable to counterfeiting as other methods.

Police National Database: Facial Images

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate

Thursday 2nd March 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My noble friend talks about privacy. If everybody was required to put their passport photographs towards a national database there might be a real issue with privacy. What the Government are trying to do, and my noble friend alluded to it, is to have images on record of people previously convicted of a crime. The custody image review is attempting to get rid of the facial images of those who are not convicted—and I include myself in that. If you have a passport but have not been convicted, I am not sure what benefit your photograph could be to the police national database.

[Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate (Non-Afl)]

Is this not a matter of balance? Does the Minister agree that the keeping of an innocent person’s image on a database is of far less consequence than being the innocent victim of a violent crime?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Lord is absolutely right: it is a question of balance. It is a balance between enabling the police to do their job and to have a good database of criminals and those who have been convicted but also, as he says, if you are an innocent person, of not having your face on the database.

Passport Applications: Digitisation

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate

Wednesday 18th January 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, a dodgy selfie is one that does not meet the rigorous requirements of a passport photo.

[Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, with the increasing threats of terrorism and of identity theft, does the Minister agree that the Question highlights the need for a proper biometric identity card?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The Government have rejected the idea of an identity card, but noble Lords will notice that when they go through passport gates now their face is compared with the photograph on the passport. The machines that do the face recognition, which is a form of biometrics, are very accurate indeed.

Hate Crime

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate

Tuesday 18th October 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I agree with the noble Lord, as I often do, that religious literacy in all aspects of society—particularly through the media—is incredibly important and something that schools can promote through PSHE. The Government have made a number of funding streams available in order for people to not only discuss what unites them in terms of their religions but celebrate what is different about them. That celebration is a good thing.

[Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that one action the Government could take to possibly reduce hate crime is to make an early announcement that all those who were lawfully living here before Brexit are allowed to remain?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I think the Government have made that quite clear: people who live here are quite welcome in this country and we will abide by our obligations, unless other EU states change their position.