Prisoners: Imprisonment for Public Protection

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Morris of Aberavon

Wednesday 1st March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

My Lords, it is the turn of the Labour Benches.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab)]

My Lords, to simplify the situation and make it abundantly clear: are the numbers rising or lowering in each category?

Information Commissioner’s Office Report

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Morris of Aberavon

Monday 11th July 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

I cannot disagree with the noble Lord that the rape review and the things we are doing for victims now are long overdue, and that there has been a culture along the chain of letting women down. Indeed, we should be making sure, and we are, that both referrals and prosecutions go forward.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab)]

My Lords, concern about non-disclosure of evidence was an issue a long time ago, when I was Attorney-General. The balance has swung the other way, to excessive intrusion. As defence counsel in many rape cases, there is an even more fundamental problem in ensuring that justice is done, as juries are reluctant to convict where the defence is consent. Will the Attorney-General lean on the DPP to publish statistics distinguishing consent cases from stranger-rapes, so that effective prosecutions can succeed in the former?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

I think that is the whole point of the criminal justice system: that evidence that comes forward distinguishes between consent and non-consent.

Mike Veale: Police Conduct Report

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Morris of Aberavon

Monday 7th March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

Certainly the current proceedings are evidence that things are at least being taken forward. I appreciate that many noble Lords will feel very disgruntled about this, but several layers of scrutiny have been afforded to both Operations Conifer and Midland. The whole proceedings have been well scrutinised, but I still appreciate the frustrations of the noble Lord and other noble Lords.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab)]

My Lords, the Library has informed me that the report has not been made publicly available. Why not? Is it not time to finally remove the unproven stain on the character of distinguished servants of the state and for the Prime Minister, with the support of the leader of the Opposition, to grip the situation and instruct the Cabinet Secretary to take every administrative step to achieve this end?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

I think I just answered that question. As regards the IOPC publishing its investigation report, it would not be right to do so while there were ongoing legal proceedings. However, in due course it will be published.

Knife Crime

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Morris of Aberavon

Wednesday 9th February 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab)]

My Lords, the Prime Minister and Home Secretary have been rebuked by the statistics watchdog for using misleading figures, claiming a falling crime rate under their leadership. Who is right: the Government or the statistics authority? Some communities suffer much more than others from knife crime. Could we have a zero-tolerance policy and, in order to tackle the problem, a breakdown of the figures for the age, sex and race of the offenders?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

My Lords, the Home Secretary did state, in her evidence to HASC on 2 February, that while some aspects of crime are going down, not all aspects are. The Home Office press release on 27 January stated that the figure used to show the reduction in crime excludes fraud and computer misuse. Of course, data is crucial when we are thinking about interventions in whatever crime it is.

Sarah Everard: Home Office Inquiry

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Morris of Aberavon

Tuesday 9th November 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

The noble Lord is absolutely right that at the time there was not that duty to co-operate. The various things the noble Lord mentions will all be looked at in the course of the inquiry. He is absolutely right that some of the culture and practices will be interrogated deeply to see whether any changes are needed.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab)]

My Lords, having served on your Lordships’ Select Committee examining public inquiries legislation, I am still baffled as to why the Government are reluctant to announce having a statutory inquiry now. Why the prevarication? Surely when there is great public disquiet, particularly as to the safety of women, the Government’s preference should be for a statutory inquiry. No one, particularly the police at the highest level, should be able to avoid giving evidence on oath if the powers are there to compel the giving of such evidence.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

As I have said, there is the duty to co-operate. That has been in place since last year. I take this opportunity, given that the noble and learned Lord has served under every Prime Minister from Wilson to Blair, to wish him a very happy 90th birthday for last week.

E-scooters

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Morris of Aberavon

Monday 12th July 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con) [V]]

My Lords, several measures can be taken. You can get a penalty fine of £300 and six points on your licence, or ghost licence, for uninsured use of these scooters, a £100 fine and three to six points for no driving licence, and a £50 fine for driving on a pavement.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab)]

My Lords, the reality is that our streets are becoming a nightmare for the young, the old, the blind and the disabled. Will the Home Secretary tell the Mayor of London that, although it is an operational matter, some confiscation of e-scooters is not enough and zero tolerance should be imposed on our pavements for e-scooters and bicycles? When did the Minister last see a police presence on the streets of London outside the precincts of Westminster?

Criminal Trials: Intercept Evidence

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Morris of Aberavon

Wednesday 9th June 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

My Lords, this is quite a complex area. The information was obtained using an equipment interference warrant rather than an intercept warrant, and there are checks and balances within the criminal justice system to ensure that one route is not used in order to facilitate another outcome. We remain of the view that the review undertaken by the noble Lord is still valid.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, since intercept evidence is allowed in virtually every EU and common-law country, will the Government seek the advice of the Intelligence and Security Committee so that Parliament can decide, following the publication of its advice, the weight of the objections of the security services and inconsistencies where such evidence is allowed, in other countries, prisons and bugs?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

We have done several reviews on this issue, including, obviously, that of the noble Lord, Lord Beith, back in 2014. We keep these matters under review, but for the time being we share the noble Lord’s conclusion.

Undercover Policing Inquiry

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Morris of Aberavon

Wednesday 14th April 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab) [V]]

What is the cost of the inquiry to date and what is the target date for its report? It is acquiring the aura of the Saville inquiry. How many immunities have been granted by the Attorney-General? Since it has been said that the legitimacy of the inquiry is bound up with the full co-operation of its participants, is it diminishing?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

The cost to date is £36.2 million. The report to the Home Secretary is due before the end of 2023.

Police: Sarah Everard Vigils

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Morris of Aberavon

Wednesday 17th March 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I will quote directly from the Home Secretary, who said:

“It is right that I have had many discussions with the Metropolitan police and specifically the commissioner on Friday and over the weekend in relation to preparations and planning prior to Saturday evening. My comments are public and on the record regarding what has happened and, quite frankly, the upsetting images of Saturday evening. A review is now being conducted by Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary. It is right that that takes place.”—[Official Report, Commons, 15/3/21; col 29.]


The noble Lord talks about operational independence. It is absolutely right that the police have operational independence, but it is also absolutely right that, first, the Government make the law and, secondly, that conversations take place between the Executive and some of the agencies of government.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, as the day wears on, many protests give rise to excesses all round. My family tells me that, this Sunday afternoon, the police were courteous but firm. Was it the Government’s purpose in their regulations to ban all protests? If so, will they now regulate to preserve the right of protest, so that both police and the public are able to return to normality?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con) [V]]

My Lords, noble Lords will recognise that banning protests was not at the heart of what the Government did; banning protests was part of keeping the public safe in this global pandemic—keeping down the numbers of people who get infected and therefore keeping people out of hospital.

Extradition Arrangements: European Union Member States

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Morris of Aberavon

Wednesday 13th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

The fundamental difference between then and now is the additional safeguards built into the proceedings, which in my view make them a more effective set of arrangements. There is also the notion of proportionality, which is crucial for both accused and victim.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, the Home Secretary claims that Brexit makes us safer. Is the sharp decrease in extradition cases at Westminster Magistrates’ Court, from about 10 cases a day to about one, a direct result of losing fast access to the European crime DNA databases? Does this reflect the position nationally?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

We are on day 14 of the new arrangements so it is probably a bit difficult to give reliable data at this point. The agreement allows UK law enforcement to continue to share DNA and fingerprints so I am slightly confused by the premise of the noble and learned Lord’s question.

Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Morris of Aberavon

Monday 22nd June 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, in answer to the noble Lord’s first question as to whether we have embarked upon a macabre criminal trial of the dead, I think that the House would agree that the inquiry is there to learn the lessons of the past so that no more children have to go through what historically some of those children had to. I agree with him that at some point the inquiry will come to an end. It expects its public hearings to conclude by the end of 2020.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, as a former law officer, I am most anxious to discover the facts of any wrongdoing so that any action can be considered and lessons learned, as we have heard. But has any terminal date been firmly put to this inquiry—a date that cannot be moved—and is there a ceiling on costs, which have shot through the roof?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble and learned Lord is right to say that, at some point, this inquiry will end. I have recently been to see the inquiry chair to understand the progress of the inquiry. As I said to the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, the public hearings are due to conclude by the end of 2020. From there on, the Government will consider the final report and respond in due course.

European Arrest Warrant, Europol and Eurojust

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Morris of Aberavon

Monday 2nd March 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My noble friend makes a very good point about political interference. In fact, that is one of the safeguards within what we are seeking. He is right to make the point that not all EU states are the same.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab)]

My Lords, will the situation after withdrawal be as effective as it is at present?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I would hope it will be enhanced.

Victims of Crime: Mobile Phone Data

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Morris of Aberavon

Wednesday 8th May 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Morris of Aberavon]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what consultation took place before the introduction of a consent form to allow police to access mobile phone content of complainants of offences; and how proportionality will be achieved.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, the National Police Chiefs’ Council and the Crown Prosecution Service consulted a number of stakeholder organisations on the development of a national consent form. The CPS has issued guidance on the examination of mobile devices, making it clear that decisions should be made on a case-by-case basis in the pursuit of reasonable lines of inquiry. A commitment has been made to engage with stakeholders further on the form and guidance.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab)]

My Lords, I am encouraged by the noble Baroness’s reply. The standardisation of consent forms has caused real concern, not least among police and crime commissioners. As a former criminal law practitioner, I know as a fact how difficult it is to get convictions in the probably around 90% of cases where the defence of someone known to the victim is consent, as opposed to an attack by a complete stranger. Will the Attorney-General, who appears to have agreed the new forms, take personal charge of any review to ensure proportionality, and can we hope that disclosure problems will be substantially reduced and that there will be more successful prosecutions?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

First, I commend the noble and learned Lord. Despite his efforts the other day, he was not able to get in when I answered the Urgent Question—or it may have been a Statement. However, he has now asked his Question and I am able to focus on it. He is absolutely right to raise the issue of consent. The JSC does not specifically cover consent but there is a discussion on privacy issues and its recommendation on this issue is, essentially, to have good guidance. The noble and learned Lord mentioned guidance and I will quote from the Select Committee’s report, which said:

“It is important that those who come forward to report serious offences, particularly those of a sexual or otherwise sensitive nature, are treated by investigators with respect and sensitivity. Their personal information should be handled in the same way and in accordance with their rights to privacy, where that is consistent with the interests of justice. The law is clear in that the right to a fair trial is an absolute right which cannot be violated to protect the right to privacy. We heard differing views on whether disclosing certain private information was always necessary to uphold the right to a fair trial, and this emphasises the need for clear guidance on this point”.

Victims of Crime: Mobile Phone Data

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Morris of Aberavon

Monday 29th April 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hogan-Howe (CB)]

My Lords, I am concerned about these proposals for two reasons. First, the major cause of some of the problems is demand. We have had far more reporting of sexual offences over the past few years, there is a greater availability of devices for recording digital data and there is far more social networking. There is a huge amount of information to trawl through and, as the noble Baroness, Lady Chakrabarti, said, it is no good giving even more access to this type of material if the police do not have the skills and resources to act on it. It would have been a good idea to talk about that alongside this proposal. Although resources have been going to the police, they have not been in this particular area.

More fundamentally, I am less relaxed than some noble Lords who have spoken about whether it is okay to trawl, as that is how it will be seen, through someone’s material. It will be seen as an intrusion into the privacy of the victim, even though I am sure it is not intended in that way. We have got to the stage where a person is now entitled to withdraw consent at the point of the sexual offence. It does not matter about sexual history or what happens after the event. Many of the offences where disclosure has been an issue have been about things and communications which have been shared after the event. I wonder, as a point of principle, why it is relevant to search someone’s communications before or after. Surely it is the event and the consent. We are in danger of moving away from that fundamental principle, which has been fought for an awful lot over the past 20 years, and this seems to be a backwards step.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab)]

My Lords—

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I know the noble and learned Lord is desperate to get in, but I shall answer the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Hogan-Howe, first. I totally take his point about demand and the different ways of communicating and therefore the new demands on the police, the training what they have on to do and the resources that they need to do it.

I have talked about the money given to PCCs and the announcement of the quite significant increase in funding to the police going forward. The noble Lord made an important point about withdrawing consent and how we have become so much more attuned to what consent means, but I take his point that the police need to have the resources in place to deal with this as well as training.

Female Genital Mutilation

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Morris of Aberavon

Thursday 7th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I totally agree with my noble friend. Cultural practice is often used interchangeably with religious reasons. In fact, the practice of FGM has nothing to do with religion. If cultural practice is harmful to children—and this practice is terribly harmful to girls, not only when it is done but throughout their whole lives—then we will look to end it.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab)]

My Lords, as a criminal lawyer, I am fully aware of the problems of successful prosecutions, particularly when there are family interests, but the fact that there has been only one successful prosecution must mean that something is deeply flawed in investigating or prosecuting. Will the Minister convey to the Attorney-General my request that he considers inviting the inspectorates of police and CPS for their views?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

What I think the noble and learned Lord is pointing out is that, actually, this is quite a hidden crime. It has various protections, if you like, with family members and doctors not willing to come forward. Although we have had only one prosecution, we have at least had that one and we now need to work from there. We have had a lot of campaigns in local communities to highlight the fact that this is an illegal practice and should not be going on in communities.

Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Morris of Aberavon

Wednesday 28th November 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I totally accept the noble Baroness’s point—I have just made it myself—that nobody wants to see any further delay, certainly given the age of some of these former child migrants. On reporting sexual abuse to external agencies, the noble Baroness is absolutely right: unless there is a proper system of support for these allegations, there is then further opportunity for internal cover-up.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab)]

My Lords, could the Minister comment on an item on the front page of today’s Times, which reports that a child-abuser in prison was able to stake his claim to parental rights to the child of the victim, to her astonishment. Is Rotherham Council part of the problem, or do the guidelines need to be changed?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

That report is extremely distressing for the individuals concerned and for all of us. I know that the relevant government departments here—the DfE and the MoJ—and the local authority will work urgently to understand the facts of this case and to implement any changes needed to the law or procedure. I thank the noble and learned Lord for raising this matter, because it is something on which I think we all agree.

Sexual Offences

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Morris of Aberavon

Monday 22nd October 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab)]

My Lords, I beg leave to ask a Question of which I have given private notice.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, these horrific crimes are sickening and I commend the bravery of victims coming forward and the police for the successful prosecutions so far. The Government have made a commitment to tackle child sexual abuse in all its forms and we have made a significant investment to help transform law enforcement’s response.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Morris of Aberavon]

My Lords, justice delayed is justice denied and this seems to have happened from Huddersfield to Rochdale, from Halifax to Newcastle, and in many other towns. Criminal law practitioners have sought to maintain the rule of law for victims and perpetrators without fear or favour. Have timely investigation and prosecution been sacrificed in favour of social cohesion? Will the Government invite the inspectors of constabulary and the CPS to analyse and report on the timeliness of the investigations and the prosecutions?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I do not think that what has happened here is political correctness; I think that, given the sheer number of people involved in the types of crimes they committed against some very vulnerable girls, it has taken time to bring this case forward—and, of course, the case was delayed for reasons outside the CPS’s control. It is really important, for successful prosecutions to be brought, that full rigour goes into the investigation and subsequent prosecutions.

Rendition of UK Citizens

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Morris of Aberavon

Tuesday 24th July 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I most certainly agree with my noble friend that bringing the perpetrators of such heinous crimes to justice is absolutely paramount. However, I reiterate the Government’s position: we oppose the death penalty in all cases.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab)]

My Lords, hard cases never make good law, however horrific these allegations are. Despite what the Minister has said, has not the principle of not sending anyone abroad to face trial where there is a possibility of a death sentence been abandoned? How will the Government deal with the cases of other British citizens who face the death penalty? How will they ever again be able to make representations on their behalf?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I make it absolutely clear that we have not sent anyone abroad to face the death penalty.

Domestic Violence: Women

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Morris of Aberavon

Thursday 8th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab)]

My Lords, a major difficulty in some of these appalling cases, in which I have been involved judicially, is that there are no witnesses other than the participants. That is one of the problems of proving the cases. Do I presume that the same standard of proof will prevail nevertheless?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble and learned Lord is absolutely right that, quite often, there are no witnesses other than the participants who mete out such abuse on women; quite often, there are no physical signs of abuse where it involves coercive control and, as the Home Secretary mentioned this morning, economic control of women. That is why we are strengthening the law and why we have gone out to consultation: so that such things may be pursued. It is also why the domestic violence protection order is being introduced.

Stalking

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Morris of Aberavon

Monday 27th November 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I am pleased to be able to say to my noble friend that the domestic violence and abuse commissioner will have a significant impact on domestic violence. Certainly the commissioner will stand up for victims and survivors, raise public awareness of the issue, monitor the response of statutory agencies and local authorities and, I hope, drive further improvements in tackling domestic abuse.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab)]

My Lord, aside from the risk of multiplication, what are the difficulties in just expanding the sex offenders register?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

On expanding the sex offenders register, someone has to be violent and a sex offender to go on to it. A stalker might be neither violent nor a sex offender. However, if someone becomes violent and a menace both to society and to their victim, they would be captured on the sex offenders register.

Domestic Violence and Abuse Bill

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Morris of Aberavon

Monday 27th November 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab)]

My Lords, can I assume that the proposed Bill has adequate measures to deal with the acid attacks as raised by the noble Baroness?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

As I said to the noble Baroness, the Government are certainly looking at how we can prevent acid attacks, in a domestic violence setting or otherwise. The consultation will be an opportunity for people to bring forward suggestions about what should be included in the Bill.

Child Sexual Abuse

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Morris of Aberavon

Wednesday 13th September 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab)]

My Lords, while I value the independence of each police force, will the Government consider asking the inspectorate to assess the propriety and cost of some of these investigations?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, the Government will leave it up to the inspectorate to determine the use of funds and whether they are proportionate; they should be.

Terrorism: Domestic Extremism

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Morris of Aberavon

Wednesday 26th April 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, a Jehovah’s Witness may or may not be an extremist depending on their activity. Extremists seek to justify behaviour that contradicts and undermines our shared values. If that is left unchallenged, those values that bind our society together start to fall apart: women’s rights are eroded, intolerance and bigotry become normalised, minorities are targeted and communities become separated from the mainstream. That sort of behaviour cannot go uncontested.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab)]

My Lords, can extremism ever really be legally defined?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

It will be legally defined when it is defined in law.

Policing and Crime Bill

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Morris of Aberavon

Report: 3rd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 12th December 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I was just about to say—I do not know whether the noble Lord will be satisfied by it—that the College of Policing is currently developing authorised professional practice on media relations, and its guidance makes it clear that decisions should be made only on a case-by-case basis when it comes to the releasing of names. I am not sure that I have satisfied noble Lords but I have tried to explain how we have tried to achieve balance in the protection of anonymity for persons who are accused pre-charge.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon]

I wonder whether the Minister is going to deal with this difficult issue with its complicated argument by referring it to the Law Commission so we can have an independent view that may not be forthcoming from the College of Policing.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I think that I have explained that the Government feel that we currently have the balance right and that we should preserve that presumption of anonymity—so I will not be doing what the noble and learned Lord suggests. I hope that my noble friend will withdraw his amendment and that the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, will not press his.

Sexual Abuse: Harassment of Suspects

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Morris of Aberavon

Thursday 8th December 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I hope I can reassure my noble friend that the Metropolitan Police will be consulting on all the review’s recommendations with the National Police Chiefs’ Council, police and crime commissioners, the College of Policing, and the statutory and voluntary partners in the criminal justice system. In addition, police investigations into persons of public prominence and institutions are now nationally co-ordinated under Operation Hydrant.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab)]

My Lords, is there not a short answer to this problem—for the police not to publish names of suspects before charging?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, there is a general presumption of anonymity pre-charge but there are operational reasons why the police might wish to release names. I must say, however, in the context of this week, that if the legislation on pre-charge anonymity recommended in the review was in place today, it would have prevented the UK media reporting the claims that we have heard this week and last of some of those alleged victims where there had been no arrests.

Operation Midland

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Morris of Aberavon

Wednesday 9th November 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I am sure my noble friend will understand if I do not talk about individual cases, but I certainly concur with his point: suffering arises when people have their names released and are guilty of nothing. However, by the same token, victims often do not come forward because they are frightened, but they need to feel that they can in these situations. The report was commissioned by the Metropolitan Police Commissioner, and therefore its publication arrangements and whom he distributes it to are matters for him to decide.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab)]

My Lords, since manifest injustice results from the publication of names before charge, is it not a matter of urgency that the whole law and practice should be reviewed independently at the highest level and should not rely solely on the views of the police?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, it is the view of the Government that there should be a presumption of pre-charge anonymity, unless it is for victims who previously felt unable to come forward to do so. I must stress that victims’ groups are very supportive of some situations where it is right that names are released.

Criminal Justice: Anonymity

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Morris of Aberavon

Tuesday 25th October 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I totally agree with my noble friend that the strength of our legal system is that people are innocent until proved guilty, and I hope that that always stays the case. I also completely sympathise with his point about the terrible suffering that people can go through when their names are made public but they are not in fact guilty of anything. I will not talk about individual cases but he mentioned people against whom the accusations were found to be groundless. It is important to say that there is a very fine and difficult balance to be struck. The voicing of victims’ concerns and the naming of people in the public interest to allow further evidence or further victims to come forward needs to be balanced with the right to privacy and protection of the person who is suspected.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab)]

My Lords, in view of the manifest injustice that can result from the publication of the names of a wide range of suspects, is it not time to have a complete review of the law and practice in this field? Will the Government consider referring the whole issue to the Law Commission?

Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Morris of Aberavon

Monday 17th October 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

That would be a matter for the inquiry to consider. It is an independent inquiry and it is not for us to try to micromanage or dictate what it does. It is independent. But I take the noble Lord’s point and I am sure the inquiry will be mindful of that.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab)]

My Lords, on 13 September, in view of the concerns of Judge Goddard, I asked the Minister that the terms of reference be amended. This was refused point blank. The Home Secretary told the Commons committee that the only reason that she knew of for Judge Goddard’s resignation was her loneliness et cetera. Her Permanent Secretary, sitting beside her, and officials, may have had much longer knowledge of concerns about Judge Goddard. Could this be clarified? Would it not be better for there to be a pause for reflection so that all involved, including the victims, could be satisfied that we are now on the right course—including having the right terms of reference?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, the terms of reference were drawn up by the chair in consultation with the Home Secretary. The chair has made a statement today expressing her satisfaction with the terms of reference. As regards Judge Goddard, I understand that no concerns were raised formally and that my right honourable friend the Home Secretary had both a letter from Judge Goddard and what was presented to the Home Affairs Select Committee. Pausing for reflection is a matter for the independent inquiry. It is for the inquiry to decide whether it wishes to do that; it is not for us to tell it what to do.

Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Morris of Aberavon

Tuesday 13th September 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Morris of Aberavon]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what consideration they have given to amending the terms of reference of the Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, the inquiry is a once-in-a-generation opportunity to get to the truth, to expose what has gone wrong in the past and to learn lessons for the future. The Home Secretary is clear that the original terms of reference were the right ones, and the new chair has confirmed that she has no intention of asking for them to be revised.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab)]

No lessons appear to have been learned from the Chilcot inquiry. One of the problems there was the width of the terms of reference. In her resignation letter, Judge Goddard referred to the,

“inherent problem in the sheer scale and size of the inquiry”.

The Home Secretary has given evidence that she has no expertise of an inquiry of this size. Will the Government think again about the proposal from the committee chaired by the noble Lord, Lord Shutt, that there should be a permanent body of expertise in the Cabinet Office to assist Ministers? In this instance, it could report to Parliament on the progress of this inquiry in 12 months’ time.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, on the terms of reference being too wide, the previous chairman and the new chairman agreed that the terms of reference are right. It was not until she left that the former chairman, Justice Goddard, talked about the terms of reference being too broad. The inquiry will report on a regular basis, including a review in 2018.

Devolution: England

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Morris of Aberavon

Wednesday 2nd December 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, the thought of Manchester having a Conservative mayor is a great one but, having lived there for some years, I am not sure that it is very likely to happen any time soon. Obviously the referendum some years ago on having a mayor was held under totally different principles from those that we have today, and local authorities can engage with their communities and their electors in any way that they see fit.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab)]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My noble friend will not be surprised if I cannot answer that question.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I refer noble Lords back to the process in London. When we first had an elected mayor in London there was scepticism, to say the least, about how effective the London mayor might be and how popular it might be as a concept. Fast-forward some years from that process, and we find that people are fighting to get that nomination and it has become one of the most sought-after positions in the country.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Morris of Aberavon]

My Lords, is it right for a small country such as the United Kingdom to have four nations developing systems of government at different speeds? Do the Government rule out a constitutional convention, rather than allowing piecemeal development?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, a constitutional convention is not on the cards at the moment. However, the Government are clear that they will not impose any sort of identikit model on each area. It is up to each area to decide how it wishes to take forward devolution proposals, and to take those forward with government.

Housing: Private Rented Sector

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Morris of Aberavon

Tuesday 23rd June 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I myself have been a private landlord of a house in multiple occupation and know that, if a landlord refuses to do something, the tenant can inform the council. The council can come out and insist that the landlord does the work. If the house is in such a state that it is not fit for occupancy, the landlord has to make provision for alternative accommodation for those tenants in the interim.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab)]

My Lords, if I heard the term correctly, the Minister used the inappropriate term “welching”. Will she define it, please?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I did not mean it as a derogatory term to the Welsh.