Criminal Finances Bill

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Rooker

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 28th March 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Rooker]

The Minister is missing the point, although I am sure she is not doing so deliberately. No bank has been prosecuted. That is the background to the question I asked. I did not ask about cosy deals with the Financial Conduct Authority—like those reported today with Tesco and the one with Rolls-Royce, which I referred to at Second Reading—to have deferred prosecutions, so that they pay but do not get prosecuted. I asked about banks being prosecuted. The one way to stop or curtail this, as the noble Lord, Lord Deben, said, is to get them where it hurts, not with cosy deals. These fines are not the result of prosecutions. If she is implying that, she is wrong, and is close to misleading the Committee. I am not asking about deals; I am asking about prosecutions which take place in court, not through cosy deals and a fine from the Financial Conduct Authority.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I hope the noble Lord does not think that I have ever tried to mislead the House. I talked about fines, but where a bank was found to have committed a criminal offence, a prosecution could be undertaken. Investigations and prosecutions are a matter for law enforcement agencies and prosecutors. I take the point that he is making, but this is open to law enforcement. Last month, a £163 million fine was issued to Deutsche Bank, and I would suggest that hitting them where it hurts probably involves hitting them in their pockets. It is open to law enforcement to prosecute banks, but I take the noble Lord’s point in that, today, I know of no prosecutions of banks. But the fines regime is in place.

I am very grateful for the amendment but hope that my noble friend has been assured that there is not a gap in existing powers that would justify extending UWOs in the way proposed. I hope he will feel content to withdraw his amendment.

West Midlands Combined Authority Order 2016

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Rooker

Monday 6th June 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Rooker (Lab)]

On the point that the Minister has just made about the other House approving this order, how long did it spend on it?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

Virtually no time at all, I understand. It shows the merit of your Lordships’ House that so many noble Lords are here today and are actually interested in this subject. I thank noble Lords for their presence here today and I am sure that I will be well and truly grilled.

I shall say a few words on devolution deals. The Government committed in our 2015 manifesto to,

“devolve powers and budgets to boost local growth in England”,

and we see combined authorities as a mechanism for doing so. On 17 November 2015 we agreed and concluded a devolution agreement with the seven councils that are constituent councils of this combined authority. This is a major step in our devolution agenda. The footprint created by the three local enterprise partnerships of the West Midlands makes up a major economy with an annual GVA of some £80 billion. The area is also England’s manufacturing heart, home to important manufacturing businesses and leading centres of advanced engineering research.

The region’s leaders are committed to delivering growth, prosperity and well-being for their residents, and they see the devolution agreement that they have concluded with the Government as central to achieving that. The agreement will devolve major powers and budgets, including £36.5 million a year of devolved funding, over the next 30 years; responsibility for a devolved transport budget; control of the 19-plus adult skills funding by 2018-19; strategic planning powers; and a devolved approach to business support. It will also enable the combined authority to create an investment fund of over £1 billion through the 30-year revenue stream and locally raised finance.

In return, the area has agreed appropriate governance for the new powers and budgets, centred on a combined authority and a directly elected mayor, providing the vital, sharp, single point of accountability that is essential if such wide-ranging powers and budgets are to be handed to the area. The combined authority that we are discussing today will be the foundation of that new governance, and we will be bringing forward to Parliament the necessary orders that, with the consent of the councils concerned, will establish the new governance arrangements if Parliament approves them. Today, however, we are considering simply the order that—if this House approves, as the other place already has—will establish a combined authority with transport and economic development functions, and which, as I have said, if those concerned wish this, can be the foundation of the governance needed for us to implement the devolution deal. I commend the order to the House.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I congratulate your Lordships’ House on spending a substantial amount of time discussing this order. I certainly have quite a few questions to respond to but I start with the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, who commended all the constituent councils in the West Midlands for the way they have worked together. I acknowledge that, certainly in Greater Manchester, relationships have been built up over some 30 years and it has been an easier process there. As the noble Lords, Lord Hunt and Lord Rooker, said, the councils in the West Midlands are of a quite different type and variety. I sincerely congratulate them on the work they have done in getting to this place.

On the point of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, about Channel 4, clearly, that is not my department but the BBC managed to uproot itself and place its home in Salford. People thought that that would never happen but it did. MediaCity provides an excellent working environment for both the BBC and ITV. I will not give my view on Channel 4, but it is possible and I hope sense will prevail.

We have strayed into mayoral combined authorities and devolution deals, and we almost cannot help that because they are so interrelated. However, this order is focused purely on the setting up of a combined authority for the West Midlands. I will start with what the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, said about the NAO commentary on the devolution deal. He asked several questions about the devolution deal, including on the NAO report. As I understand it, the NAO simply commented that the devolution deal in the West Midlands sets up more complex and untested arrangements than those for Greater Manchester. At face value, they appear more complex. Of course, as I said to the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, the authorities of Greater Manchester have worked together for many years, but we are confident that the agreed deal can be effective. It would be great if it could be. We are not afraid of innovation in the governance arrangements that will be put in place. The mayor in particular will provide the necessary accountability. Accountability is very important here.

The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, talked about letting local authorities decide for themselves. However, the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, firmly made the point that we should not have informality; there must be some accountability and, I think he said, tightening. Of course, none of this is about the order today but I think we have agreed that. The order implements a proposal for a combined authority made by the councils in October 2015, one month before the deal in front of us was agreed.

The noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, also talked about whether non-constituent members, as well as constituent members, could be part of future deals. Deals are about areas. The area of a combined authority is that of the constituent councils but in the West Midlands the intention is for the combined authority to support the growth of the area across the three local enterprise areas, which includes the area of the non-constituent councils. But the electorate of the non-constituent council areas do not vote for the mayor, nor does the mayor exercise functions in that area.

The noble Lord also commented on the consultation, as did a number of other noble Lords. We hold the view that there are no inadequacies in the consultation, having had regard to the government consultation principles, which were, as I said, published on 14 January this year, and to which the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee referred in its report and which have recently been amended in the light of comments made by the said committee. In short, the consultation’s use of digital measures are wholly consistent with these principles, and as the principles make clear, consultation needs to be considered as,

“part of a process of engagement”.

The engagement in this case has been very substantial and included: writing to a representative sample of 465 stakeholders, comprising key private sector employers, public sector bodies and third sector organisations; the establishment of an online survey which attracted 305 respondents, the results of which were analysed and published; the attendance of the local enterprise partnerships, and the authorities within them, at combined authority meetings; seeking feedback from the public via a “query box”, as I have mentioned; a parliamentary event; and a number of formal and informal briefings with the business and third sector communities. On account of these points, we think that there has been extensive engagement and local input from communities, stakeholders and local people.

A couple of noble Lords commented on combination creep in relation to the West Midlands combined authority. However, the simple fact is that the geography of this combined authority is absolutely clear. The area of the combined authority is the area of the seven metropolitan areas of the West Midlands, which are Birmingham, Coventry, Dudley, Sandwell, Solihull, Walsall and Wolverhampton. The draft order before noble Lords provides that certain named councils outside the area can sit at the table of the combined authority. It is absolutely right and sensible that these neighbouring areas can influence decisions taken in the combined authority area. That is a sensible and progressive way to ensure appropriate governance and decision-making in this area.

The noble Baroness, Lady Burt, made some excellent points about strategic thought around skills, transport and manufacturing. She was not present for the debates on the Cities and Local Government Devolution Bill, but precisely that recurring theme arose throughout the passage of that Bill. That is precisely how local authorities should be thinking, as some are doing very well. She asked about the voting rights for non-constituent members. Any non-constituent council or LEP member of the combined authority shall be non-voting but may be given voting rights by resolution of the constituent members of the combined authority, possibly where there is an issue very relevant to that non-constituent authority. The noble Baroness also asked what part minor parties would play. I do not know whether she has heard this from her colleagues, but that issue was again much discussed during the passage of the Cities and Local Government Devolution Bill, particularly by members of her party. Combined authorities must have one or more overview and scrutiny committees, the majority of members of such a committee must be members of the constituent councils, and the committee must reflect the political balance of the constituent councils of the combined authority.

The noble Baroness also asked who votes for the mayor. Obviously, the political parties will choose their own candidates but the people who vote for the mayor will be the electorate within the constituent councils of the combined authority, so that will be Birmingham, Coventry, Dudley, Sandwell, Solihull, Walsall and Wolverhampton. Obviously, the electorate of the non-constituent councils will not have a vote for the mayor.

The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, talked about an issue which we debated long and hard during the progress of the Cities and Local Government Devolution Bill: health and social care and whether DCLG would be sympathetic to a proposal coming forward. We welcome proposals from local areas. The Government are absolutely clear that devolution is an ongoing process and not limited to one deal: that is the beauty of devolution. It is for local areas to come forward with their proposals for further devolution deals, including health proposals, as Greater Manchester has already done.

The noble Lord, Lord Rooker, talked about the mayoral order already being published. The constituent councils of the West Midlands are in the process of considering a draft mayoral order which will establish the post of mayor from 2017 at full council meetings. Following the establishment of the basic combined authority, subject to approval by this House, the constituent councils and the combined authority will be asked to consent to the making of a mayoral order which will give effect to the devolution deal agreed between the Government and the West Midlands. The noble Lord also asked about the mayor being mayor for only part of the combined authority area. The area of the combined authority is the area of the constituent councils, that is, the area of the seven metropolitan—

[Lord Rooker]

My Lords, I will help the Minister by giving her time to decipher what she has got. When I said “part”, I was naturally referring to the old West Midlands metropolitan council area: in other words, the seven constituent members who will have the 14 votes in the combined authority. I fully accept that that is where the mayor will be, but the combined authority—if it gets going—will be discussed with all the others, including Stratford and Shropshire, as the West Midlands combined authority. Confusion may arise when people talk about the mayor of the West Midlands, but it only refers to the metropolitan district council areas.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

It does indeed; it is only in relation to those areas. Regarding non-constituent councils, the point is simply that certain councils outside the area of the combined authority can be at the table of the combined authority, reflecting the fact that what the combined authority and mayor might do could affect the surrounding areas. However, the non-constituent councils do not have the right to vote on decisions except, as I explained to the noble Baroness, Lady Burt, in certain circumstances where the combined authority agrees.

Finally, the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, made a point about business rates. We are working with the LGA and local councils for a planned summer consultation—which I am sure the noble Lord will be involved in—before introducing the local growth and jobs Bill later in the Session to make the necessary provisions. However, I look forward to early engagement on that, particularly with the noble Lords, Lord Beecham and Lord Kennedy, whom I am sure will be involved.

I think I have addressed most of the points, and I hope noble Lords will be content for me to write to them on those I have not. I beg to move.