Immigration Detention

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Singh of Wimbledon

Wednesday 3rd April 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

As I said, the figure of 92% of people being released from detention, who have been there perhaps for immigration bail or other forms of review, is the result of our not wanting to keep people in detention and doing so only to remove them.

[Lord Singh of Wimbledon (CB)]

My Lords, while the checking of documentation and control of numbers can be justified, does the Minister agree that indefinite detention and a callous, dismissive attitude to would-be immigrants or asylum seekers, including the elderly and infirm, as detailed in the report, can never be justified? This is a Christian country. In Leviticus 19:33-34, the Bible reminds us:

“When a stranger resides with you in your land, you shall not wrong him … you shall love him as yourself”.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I thank the noble Lord for that point. As he made it, thunder was clapping —I do not know whether it was for here or for another place.

The noble Lord is absolutely right that the law does not allow indefinite detention. The purpose of detention is to remove someone, and in as short a time as possible. He raises a good point about vulnerable people. It might help him to know that we are currently piloting a scheme to manage a number of vulnerable women in the community who would otherwise have been detained at Yarl’s Wood. With the input of a medical expert, we are looking to differentiate more strongly between vulnerable cases to ensure that the most complex get the attention that they need.

Prevent Strategy

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Singh of Wimbledon

Wednesday 6th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Lord is absolutely right: we cannot discuss what is happening in this area without talking about the online sphere. I entirely agree with him that the White Paper on internet harms has to include that important element.

[Lord Singh of Wimbledon (CB)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that “prevent” is too weak and negative a word for trying to get different communities to behave responsibly and with respect towards one another? Does she further agree that religious leaders have a particular responsibility to counter bigotry by emphasising that the one God of us all is not interested in our different religious labels but in what we do for one another and wider society?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Lord is indeed right. Our gods, whoever they are, care about how we treat each other and work together. On the question of whether “prevent” is too weak or has become too divisive, what is often forgotten is that many of the referrals—in fact, almost half now—arise from concerns about the far right. I hope that the noble Lord will feed into the review when it comes.

Offensive Weapons Bill

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Singh of Wimbledon

Report: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 4th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, for his amendment. It deals with an issue which we discussed at length in Committee and which was the subject of a very productive round table on 13 February, attended by members of the Sikh community, the noble Lords, Lord Kennedy, Lord Paddick and Lord Singh, and my noble friend Lord Suri. I was also grateful to have a separate discussion with my noble friend Lady Verma. I have provided a fact sheet to noble Lords, setting out the current position under the offensive weapons legislation in relation to kirpans, and I would happily place a copy in the Library of the House.

The amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, seeks to ensure that Sikhs are not prosecuted for possessing a kirpan and to allow the gifting of large kirpans by Sikhs to non-Sikhs. The amendment would therefore exempt kirpans from the offences of possessing a bladed or sharply pointed article in a public place or school and further education premises, and from the offence of possessing an offensive weapon under Section 141A of the Criminal Justice Act 1988. I believe that the intention is also to exempt kirpans from the offence of supplying an offensive weapon under Section 141 of the 1988 Act—albeit the current amendment only references possession. The exemption would apply where the kirpan is possessed for,

“religious, ceremonial, sporting or historical reasons”.

My main issue with the amendment is that it refers to kirpans but does not define them. Kirpans vary considerably in size and shape, the only common factor being their association with the Sikh faith. This is why the existing defences of possession and supply for “religious reasons” work so well—they define by reference to purpose. It would not be workable to have an exemption for kirpans without saying what they are, otherwise everyone caught in possession of a knife or sword could claim that it was a kirpan and that they possessed it for,

“religious, ceremonial, sporting or historical reasons”.

The police and the CPS would have to prove otherwise, in effect having to prove that the item was not a kirpan, the person was not a Sikh, or that the person was not possessing it for sporting, ceremonial or other reasons, rather than the defendant proving or showing that they have a defence for possessing the weapon.

I appreciate that the intent behind the amendment is to deal with the issue of the gifting of kirpans, because there is already a defence for religious reasons under Sections 139, 139A, 141 and 141A of the 1988 Act, and there is already a defence for sporting purposes under Sections 141 and 141A of that Act. The Government are sympathetic to the need to find a solution to the issue of the Sikh cultural practice of gifting a kirpan. Within government, we are continuing to look actively at this issue and to meet the noble Lord, Lord Singh, and others to make sure that we come to the right solution. I am very hopeful that something can be done in this area and that it will be possible to bring forward a suitable government-drafted amendment at Third Reading.

I also note that as drafted, the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, does not render the supply of a kirpan—that is, the act of gifting—lawful; it exempts only possession. This is one issue which we will need to consider further, ahead of the next stage. In the usual way, noble Lords will understand that I cannot give a cast-iron guarantee that the Government will be able to support a more targeted amendment at Third Reading. However, we will make our intentions clear in advance so that, if necessary, the noble Lord can bring back this amendment or some variant of it. But on the basis—

[Lord Singh of Wimbledon]

My Lords—

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

May I just finish before the noble Lord comes in? On the basis that we want to work with noble Lords to find an equitable solution, I hope that the noble Lord will be able to withdraw his amendment at this stage. The answer to the question put by the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, about what other communities came forward, is: none.

[Lord Singh of Wimbledon]

My Lords, much is being made of the definition of a kirpan. It was said in a meeting with Home Office people that a kirpan is simply a Punjabi word for a sword, and that there is no other need for a definition as it is nothing very different. This has been said again and again, yet the definition is being used as a reason for delay and further consideration, which completely confuses me.

Religious Hate Speech

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Singh of Wimbledon

Wednesday 5th December 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I do agree with the noble Lord that the conflation of Islamism and Islamic is widespread. Not only should we understand where the two terms come from—Islamism, of course, comes from the collapse of the Ottoman empire—but that Islam itself is a peaceful religion and Muslims in this country contribute to the variety and diversity of our country.

[Lord Singh of Wimbledon (CB)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that all faiths should be treated equally, and does she deplore the present practice of resources going to those who shout the loudest? There are no comparative statistics on hate crime for different faiths.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I agree with the noble Lord that all religions should be treated equally. The premise of some of our hate crime legislation absolutely underpins that equality in society. No one should feel that hate should be meted out on them because of their religion, the colour of their skin, their sexual orientation or their disability.

Terrorism: Perpetrator Creed

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Singh of Wimbledon

Wednesday 25th October 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I totally agree with the right reverend Prelate, and commend the Church, as I often do, for the work that it does to inspire community cohesion. In my previous role, I was aware of its work on projects such as Near Neighbours. The right reverend Prelate makes the point about the responsibility of the media. Of course, we will absolutely stick up for a free press, but I certainly think that, as he says, the press needs to become more religiously literate in how it reports. I loved the comment that he made about the chap on the tube—I had forgotten that—who said, “You ain’t no Muslim, bro”, because it symbolised what we all think: that we are standing together, Muslim, Jew, Christian, Sikh and Hindu, against the forces of evil in society.

[Lord Singh of Wimbledon (CB)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that, while we should deplore the linking of the evil behaviour of a few people with the whole of that religious community, it is equally important to condemn the behaviour of extremist clerics who use out-of-context religious texts to promote hatred of other communities?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

As always, the noble Lord makes a very good point. It is the responsibility of leaders in our society to lead by example, and some clerical teachings somewhat stray from that at times. As I said, the free press is something that we hold precious, but we all have a responsibility in our own way, whether as the leader of a church, a Sikh gurdwara or a mosque, to promote cohesive messages, not divisive ones.

Terrorist and Extremist Propaganda: Online Sources

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Singh of Wimbledon

Wednesday 28th June 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, my noble friend is right that the move to actual radicalisation can be very quick indeed. I pay tribute to the Counter Terrorism Internet Referral Unit, which since 2010 has helped to secure the removal of 270,000 pieces of material from the internet by social media providers—8,000 a month in 2016 alone. The CTIRU was the first of its kind globally and continues to be world-leading in its operation. My noble friend mentioned encryption, and we support the use of strong encryption. However, we must also ensure that, in tightly prescribed circumstances, our law enforcement and security and intelligence agencies are able to access the communications of criminals, including terrorists.

[Lord Singh of Wimbledon (CB)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that what generally passes for religion is not only ethical guidance for sane living, but a sometimes oppressive culture and a shared history often bent or moulded to dislike or hatred? It is such material that is used to radicalise people. Does the Minister agree that there should be open debate about these things and that this aspect of religion should not be protected by political correctness if we want a truly healthy society?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Lord, as always, makes insightful points. Of course there is a big difference between religion and culture and it is often in the attempt to conflate the two that we come up against such horrible types of terrorist activity. The Prime Minister said the other day that we must be prepared to have difficult conversations and I totally agree. Just because conversations are difficult does not mean that we should not have them, and they may lead to a much smoother way forward.