Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Ben Wallace and Toby Perkins

Monday 13th March 2023 Commons Chamber

[Mr Wallace]

I do not need to do much more to convince the Treasury; the Chancellor and the Prime Minister said at the autumn statement that they recognised that Defence would need more spending. They have crossed that line, and in fact they already knew that: the Prime Minister, when he was Chancellor, gave us the extra £24 billion, and hon. Members will remember that the current Chancellor stood on a platform for a greater percentage of GDP when he stood for the leadership of the Conservative party. The key is now to ensure that we lock that spending in to get a long timeframe, so that we can start the investment and planning that will be required at the next comprehensive spending review and beyond.

[Mr Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab)]

T9. It is great to see you back in your place, Madam Deputy Speaker. To be fair to the Defence Secretary, he has been very candid that 13 years of this Government have, in his words, “hollowed out and underfunded” our armed forces, but why should anyone believe that, in their final gasps, the exhausted Government who underfunded them over 13 years will actually put right the hollowing-out they have put in place in that time?

[Mr Wallace]

Maybe the hon. Gentleman cannot hear: I did not say “13”; I said there had been “30” years of hollowing out, which includes his last Government, a Government I served under as a soldier. His Government spent a lot of money going to war in the middle east, which hollowed us out too, because we were not properly refunded. If he wants to come to this House and start a debate about Defence, I would appreciate it if he did so with a bit of candour about his own Government’s role in it. We have done that—I have had the courage to do that—so maybe he might.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Ben Wallace and Toby Perkins

Monday 30th January 2023 Commons Chamber

[Mr Wallace]

I point my hon. Friend to the national shipbuilding strategy, which puts in place lots of measures, such as the home shipbuilding guarantee scheme and export credits for foreign buyers, as well as a skills plan, a “yards for the future” plan, which is about what a modern yard should look like and whether we can compete with European yards that have already beaten us to too many contracts, and a shipbuilding pipeline. That is an incredibly important indicator to the industry that there is a long-term pipeline to come through. It is also important to recognise that if we are going to be as successful as we are in the aerospace industry, we will need export, and if we are to export to other markets, we have to recognise that international collaboration is also part of the process. Do I think that Australia and Canada would have bought our Type 26s if we had said, “No way, you are only having ‘British’ on it”? No, and all our supply chain would have suffered as a result.

[Mr Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab)]

Notwithstanding what the Secretary of State has said, we know that many aspects of the shipbuilding industry feel that our Government have been less supportive of them than some of our competitor nations around the world. If the Government continue to award contracts under which large proportions of the work are completed abroad, will that not undermine the British shipbuilding industry? Will the Secretary of State say something more about how we can ensure that more of these ships are built by UK shipbuilding firms?

Ukraine: Update

Debate between Ben Wallace and Toby Perkins

Monday 16th January 2023 Commons Chamber

[Mr Wallace]

First, the good thing about the Challenger 3 supply chain is that we are doing the work in Stockport and Telford, and I am delighted that we are also doing the Boxers near there. We are reinvigorating the land systems supply chain. On my hon. Friend’s point about tanks, no one was ever writing that we should get rid of tanks. Hopefully my defence review was a bit better than the defence review that said there was no use for a machine gun after the Japanese-Russian war, or indeed the brave admiral who said that submarines had absolutely no utility in the lead-up to being sunk in the Firth of Forth by a German U-boat. I do not think we have said tanks should be got rid of, but Ukraine has shown that armour is important, and not just for the basic protection from hand grenades dropped by UAVs.

Ukraine also shows that without armour properly protected in a 360° way, forces are incredibly vulnerable to handheld anti-tank weapons. The House may have noticed that the British NLAW and the US Javelin are successfully remodelling hundreds and hundreds of T-72s from very short distance. We have to have proper protection, both electronically but also in the layered defence that we need on the modern battlefield.

[Mr Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab)]

Whatever the manifold differences we have in this place, it is good that people across Ukraine and Russia will have heard once again the resolute message from all parts of the House. We support the Secretary of State’s move to donate the Challenger tanks, and we are resolute in saying that Putin’s aggression must fail. The Secretary of State said in his statement that the Challenger tank donation will help not only to resist the Russians, but to expel them. We have heard Ukrainian officials and the NATO Secretary-General saying that Russia is planning a major offensive this spring. Can the Secretary of State tell us what more the UK can do provide broad support beyond tanks to the Ukrainians to repel that major Russian aggression?

[Mr Wallace]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his comments. I recognise that 14 tanks will not change the course of history, but it is also about trying to be a force multiplier. If we can put the 14 tanks with the 50 Bradleys and deep long-range artillery at divisional level, as well as hopefully unlocking Leopard tanks across Europe, we can raise a significant mass that is important to enable the fire and manoeuvre warfare that will be needed to push Russia out. Of course Russia has planned for an offensive. With Gerasimov being reappointed, effectively, he will be able to make the same mistakes as he did the first time. Nevertheless, Russia is not giving up, but neither are we. I noticed social media in Russia commenting that our decision to send Challenger tanks would change nothing. That is right, it will not change anything; Ukraine will continue to win and Russia will continue to lose.

Ukraine Update

Debate between Ben Wallace and Toby Perkins

Monday 5th September 2022 Commons Chamber

[Mr Wallace]

Obviously, it is for Her Majesty the Queen to appoint the next Prime Minister, but the new leader of the Conservative party has committed to more defence spending. I will absolutely look at how we can populate our armed forces to give us the best readiness and the best availability of equipment, and at how to ensure we can be more persistently present around the world, and that will involve considering force laydown and the required size of our forces. For example, we simply do not have enough long-range artillery, and we do not have any ground-based, long-range, anti-air capability. That will come with more platforms and equipment, and it will come with more people, but not remotely as many people as an infantry battalion would. We should look in the round at what capabilities we need and at what that means for the number of people needed to man them.

[Mr Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab)]

As it becomes accepted that Russia has failed in all its objectives, and as the public accept the success of the Ukrainian defence, the risk is that that will lead to complacency about the dangers facing the Ukrainians and that public interest will start to wane. The Secretary of State spoke powerfully about the counter-offensive in Kherson and about the risk of increasing Ukrainian army casualties. Has our training and support for the Ukrainians had to change as they move from a purely defensive posture into starting to retake land? What further support might we need to give in this next stage of the conflict?

[Mr Wallace]

First, the curriculum has become less defensive and more offensive as we teach the Ukrainians how to assault positions and so on. As for what more we could do, I will give a small but important example. Historically, when a soldier was injured on the battlefield, they were evacuated to a company battalion or company aid post. However, owing to the existence of modern, cheap drones that can drop grenades, the Ukrainians are having to treat their people where they fall for longer before they can move them in, for example, armoured ambulances. That means they need more tourniquets, because securing the blood supply is more important than ever, given that the casualty will not get to an aid post as quickly. Those are the sort of the things that we look for in the training and feedback, and we then immediately try to buy it, source it or seek donations to try to help the Ukrainians on the battlefield. We were there back in 2015 training Ukrainians under Operation Orbital, and we have been there all along with the Canadians, the Swedes and the United States. It pays dividends in our relationship that we know what they need in the here and now.

The hon. Gentleman is also right about Putin’s longer-term strategy, and I think he is counting on two things. The first is the international community getting bored, not sticking around and splitting up, and he may just say, “I thought it would take three months, but it only took six.” Secondly, he is counting on the fact that his brutality is how to win a war, and we must not let that message be successful, because if Putin is successful, all our adversaries and all those around the world who think that brutality and breaking international law are the ways to win will take succour from that.

Ukraine Update

Debate between Ben Wallace and Toby Perkins

Monday 25th April 2022 Commons Chamber

[Mr Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab)]

The Secretary of State is right to salute the bravery of the heroic Ukrainian forces and highlight the failures of the Russians, but that should not in any way allow us to become complacent about the threat that Russia continues to pose. I hear what he said about the Ukrainians deciding where we go from here, but does he agree that there can be no return to normality in our relationship with Russia until it has got out of all the areas that it has invaded in this invasion?

[Mr Wallace]

There can be no return to normality for President Putin and his inner circle. What they have done, despite international warnings from presidents and prime ministers who endlessly asked them not to do it, is build their own cage—and they are living in it. From my point of view, they need to remain in it.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Ben Wallace and Toby Perkins

Monday 24th May 2021 Commons Chamber

[Mr Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab)]

During the 2019 election, The Prime Minister promised that he would not cut the armed service “in any form”, yet the integrated review funds another 10,000 fewer in our armed forces by 2025. We can have an interesting discussion about whether or not force strength is the best use of that money, but does it fundamentally undermine confidence in our democracy when the Government seek election promising to protect the size of our armed forces, knowing full well that they have no intention of doing any such thing?

[Mr Wallace]

The Government always go into elections dealing with the threat as they see it. The threat has changed, and it is incredibly important that we do the right thing in responding to that threat. It is the duty of Government members to ensure that if the facts on the battlefield change, so do we. The hon. Gentleman would, quite rightly, be the first to stand up if we did not equip our people properly and they were put at risk. We all remember what happened last time. It was called the Snatch Land Rover fiasco, and many brave men died defending that ridiculous policy, because of his Government’s choices.

Carrier Strike Group Deployment

Debate between Ben Wallace and Toby Perkins

Monday 26th April 2021 Commons Chamber

[Mr Wallace]

First, on the carrier alliance, I think the bigger lesson to take is for our future combat air system—the future fighter programme. There are so many vested interests in it and it is such a big and broad programme; we should incorporate many of those lessons.

On the fleet solid support ships, I cannot reveal too much because it is so close to us publishing the competition. We would like it to happen as soon as possible. Forgive me for some of the delay; that is entirely my fault. When I took over office, I was keen to ensure that the fleet solid support ship, for which the previous competition had collapsed, was put in a healthy place. I hope we will see some innovative means by which we can get the best out of British and the best value for money for the taxpayer, as well as improve some of our skills base for our workforce, because it is really important that it is not feast or famine when we make our ships.

I give credit where credit is due; I remember sitting in Aberdeenshire listening to the then Chancellor, Gordon Brown, announce this programme in the March 1998 Budget. It is a joint endeavour of the United Kingdom involving Governments who commissioned these aircraft and indeed this carrier. My right hon. Friend the Member for Ludlow (Philip Dunne) makes the real point, which is that the risk—it is always a risk—is that we start on a 20-year endeavour and things change. Threats change, design changes and things become unavailable; I am afraid that that sometimes unavoidably increases the cost of these programmes. That is the simple reality. Very few countries are prepared to lean in and take that risk, but in the end I think the prize is worth it, as we will see when this carrier group sails at the end of May.

[Mr Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab)]

I very much welcome the maiden deployment of the carrier strike group. The Secretary of State is right to say that it was envisaged and laid down under a Labour Government, and set sail under a Conservative Government. Built in shipyards in both England and Scotland, it is an example of why we are stronger in both our security and economic interests when we work closely together across the four nations. He is right to say it is important we work closely with our friends the United States and other countries, but it is also important that we have sovereign capability. Can he confirm whether we currently have the capability for both our aircraft carriers to go to sea at the same time with British support ships and aircraft if we were to choose to do that alone?

[Mr Wallace]

The hon. Gentleman asks a valid question. Strictly speaking we could, but we do not envisage such deployments unless we are in a time of war or significant stress. At the moment, yes, we could strictly speaking, but the way we are working up each aircraft carrier means that we will not be required to do that.

Covid-19 Response: Defence Support

Debate between Ben Wallace and Toby Perkins

Tuesday 12th January 2021 Commons Chamber

[Mr Wallace]

My right hon. Friend should be reassured. I have come from a meeting on exactly that: making sure that as the delivery profile of the vaccines increases there is no gap in delivery. If there is, we are designed, ready and standing by to assist in delivery and, in fact, getting ahead. One of the things about which a number of Members have asked are lessons from the integrated review: anticipation, better planning, longer planning, and making sure that we know what is coming next. Those are some of our strengths, and that is something that we can export to other Government Departments, and on the vaccines we are right at the centre of trying to do that.

[Mr Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab) [V]]

I share the admiration for our armed forces that many hon. Members have highlighted, and I share frustration that the Defence Secretary and other hon. Members have expressed about the fact that many people allocated by his Department are not being utilised by the Government. Can he tell us whether there are other barriers that have prevented Government Departments from taking up this opportunity such as accommodation or other budgetary concerns? He can be assured that in Chesterfield we have many hotels that would be happy to accommodate members of the armed forces if they can help us to speed up the vaccination programme?

[Mr Wallace]

First, I can assure the hon. Gentleman that when we deploy our armed forces we do our best to make sure that we are in the community. Many armed forces are helping in Greater Manchester and have been deployed in many hotels in the area. My experience over almost the past year has been that the driver for demand is often not as straightforward as people think. It is not a question of Secretaries of State picking up the phone and saying, “I want to send thousands of people there.” Demand is often driven from the ground up. It is often driven by local authorities or regional leaders, alongside regional NHS demand. That is what we have to remember. There are plenty of places that have managed within their own resources to deliver, but the trick is to make sure that we anticipate. As I said in an earlier answer, I think three or four months ahead. Historically, I do not think that most civilian Departments do so, and that is what the pandemic has taught us all: to think what is next. As soon as we solve today’s problem we should move on to think about the next one. 

On our response, for example, we said almost immediately to Ty Urch, the general in charge of the response, whom I congratulate on being knighted in the honours list: “You go back to the main job and the deputy will be the main liaison.” That is what we do well. There are no barriers to these requests and no barriers from other Departments either. Demand is being generated either from the ground up or from other Departments. That is when we see less or more, depending on what is required.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Ben Wallace and Toby Perkins

Monday 7th December 2020 Commons Chamber

[Mr Wallace]

Can I be absolutely clear? While we recognise the figures of RDEL, or resource departmental expenditure limits, and CDEL, or capital departmental expenditure limits, over the four years, we absolutely do not recognise the interpretation by the Labour Front Bench of a real-terms cut in RDEL using the inflationary figures and depressors that they have already jumbled up. The simple fact is that this Government have made a record defence spending commitment and we will be investing it in people, their capabilities and their equipment. When it comes to equipment, the first thing is to ensure that we give our men and women the best to keep them alive and safe on a battlefield. I am confident, because Britain makes most of the best equipment in the world, that a large proportion of that will be British made and British secured.

[Mr Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab)]

What support the armed forces are providing during the covid-19 outbreak; and if he will make a statement.

Counter-Daesh Update

Debate between Ben Wallace and Toby Perkins

Wednesday 22nd July 2020 Commons Chamber

[Mr Wallace]

My hon. Friend is right always to talk about the fear of mission creep. I believe the best way to ensure that mission creep does not happen is by Secretaries of State and Ministers making sure that they have strong oversight and that they keep a close eye on the mission, making sure that the parameters are set and communicated. His point is right; the best way to avoid a fight is to avoid a conflict. Our armed forces, sub-threshold, have a very real role to play in preventing conflicts from happening by improving security and training, and in some cases improving infrastructure—for example, in Sudan, the Royal Engineers have helped put in those types of important measures—so that a nation is strong and confident and does not need to resort to conflict.

[Mr Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab)]

I echo the Secretary of State’s tribute to the professionalism and commitment of our armed forces. I also wish to reinforce the point made by the hon. Member for Filton and Bradley Stoke (Jack Lopresti) about our historical allies in the Kurdistan region of Iraq, who not only feel that threat from Daesh, but feel that there is sometimes a difficult relationship with those in Baghdad. Will the Secretary of State tell us more about what we can do and what he can do to amplify the commitment of this House to our friends in Kurdistan, and about the work we can do to make that region not only safe, but prosperous in the future?

[Mr Wallace]

I can give the hon. Gentleman the commitment that we are absolutely determined to help those people who share our values and have a key part to play in the reconstruction of that region. He reminds me that we should not forget in this House the evil nature of the Assad regime, which rules Syria, where some of the Kurds are living. That is the regime that gassed its own people and disappeared people in the night. That has not gone away and it is currently focused on a direction towards Idlib, where the humanitarian catastrophe will only grow for as long as Assad and his regime continue.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Ben Wallace and Toby Perkins

Monday 16th March 2020 Commons Chamber

[Mr Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab)]

T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.

[The Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Ben Wallace)]

The UK Government are working with the devolved Administrations, the World Health Organisation and international partners to keep the UK safe against the outbreak of covid-19. The men and women of our armed forces are deeply professional and always work to tackle threats to our security wherever they may be. This situation is no different. We stand ready to work with other Government Departments, secure in the knowledge that our armed forces bring calmness and resilience to any task. Meanwhile, the delivery of key operations and outputs will continue to be maintained.

[Mr Perkins]

Members across the House take huge pride in the people in their constituency who join our armed forces, but would it not give greater focus to our pride if figures were published regularly to show how many from each constituency join each year? Will the Secretary of State see if such statistics can be provided, so that the people of Chesterfield can take pride in the number of people from there who join our armed forces each year?

[Mr Wallace]

I would be delighted to try to get that important data to hon. Members. I would also like to try to get the data on how many people are leaving our armed forces and going back into our constituencies. As president of an association, I know how hard it is to get in touch with soldiers from my regiment to make sure that they get the assistance they deserve. I take the hon. Gentleman’s suggestion, which I worked on for years but which was always blocked by data protection. Now I am the Secretary of State for Defence, I would be delighted to try to deliver it for him.