AUKUS Security Partnership

Debate between Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton and Lord Dobbs

Tuesday 13th February 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

The noble Lord makes a good point, which is that, ultimately, Britain and France should co-operate as closely as we can, because we are similar-sized powers with similar-sized militaries and global ambitions. That is what the Lancaster House agreement that he did so much to bring about was all about. What I would say to French partners now looking at this is that what AUKUS does for UK capacity is make sure that we replace the Astute submarines, which are incredibly high-tech and successful, with a new-generation AUKUS submarine—so the funding and the capacity are in place for that. We are assuring our future, and that is good for France because we can then talk with it about how it will secure the future of its submarine programme.

[Lord Dobbs (Con)]

My Lords, nobody has yet mentioned China, so allow me to do so. Will my noble friend agree that it is important that we continue to talk with China and find as many areas, and expand on as many areas, of agreement as possible? But, in all this discussion, is it not possible to focus too narrowly on the threat of China? Should we not do more to embrace the democracies in Asia, such as Japan, India, Malaysia and South Korea? They are already more populous than China, are growing economically much faster than China and, in a few years’ time, will be far more economically powerful than China.

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

I very much agree with my noble friend. You can do both those things. It is important that we have a relationship with China. We have many disagreements, and it is an “epoch-defining challenge”, as the integrated review puts it, but, where we can find areas to progress discussions, we should. However, my noble friend is completely right to focus on the emerging democracies of the Far East, which is why I note not just AUKUS but the Hiroshima accord, the ASEAN relationship and the ministerial connections we have in Indonesia, Malaysia and Vietnam. I think I was the first ever serving Prime Minister to visit Vietnam, and I hope to go back soon.

UK-EU Relationship

Debate between Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton and Lord Dobbs

Tuesday 5th December 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

I thank the noble Earl for his question. These structured dialogues seem to work. Only yesterday, the one on citizenship met—I think for the 14th time—and made some important progress. I think there is a role for them, but also for using all the connections, structures and other meetings we have to try to push forward British interests. For instance, in my meeting with Commissioner Šefčovič, there is the whole issue of having an energy partnership. I think that is an excellent idea, but we have to get to grips quickly with electricity trading. It makes sense: we have these interconnectors, so let us trade the electricity and try to have lower prices here and lower prices there. That is an obvious example of win-win co-operation, but we should have a more structured dialogue at the same time, of course, and I will certainly read the report to which the noble Earl refers, which I have not yet seen.

[Lord Dobbs (Con)]

My Lords, I am delighted that my noble friend decided to come to this place—a decision that is probably much wiser than the one he made when he sent me here. May I ask him about relations with Greece? I declare my interest in the register as a member of the Parthenon Project, whose objective is to create a privately funded foundation to encourage exchanges of teachers, professors and students between our two countries, and also to share our priceless cultural objects and artefacts, which include the Elgin marbles—yes, it is not just the loony left. In our really crappy world, is it not right that we should reach out and use as much soft power as we can to reforge and strengthen our relations with our old friends?

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for his question. I well remember sending him here, because a week later we lost a vote by one, and he was the responsible noble Lord. I remember having some words with him after that—although, clearly, it had absolutely no effect. I do not agree with what he says about the Elgin marbles. The Government have a very clear position on that, which has been set out. I met the Greek Foreign Minister while I was at the NATO conference, and we had a great discussion about all the other aspects of our relationship, where we are strong friends, allies and partners.