Digital Economy Bill

Debate between Lord Ashton of Hyde and Baroness Jones of Whitchurch

Report: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 20th March 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for introducing his amendments today. I am also grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, for bringing some clarity to what has been quite a complicated and emotional debate this afternoon. I urge noble Lords to look at Amendment 25YW in this group, which is in my name, because I believe that would take us some way through some of the dilemmas that we face this afternoon.

As has been said, these amendments arise from a dialogue we have been having over the last few weeks about the definition of “prohibited material” and “extreme pornography”. That arose as a result of late additions to the enforcement measures in the Commons, which meant that the Bill did not receive the scrutiny it deserved at that stage. Hence we have been scrambling to understand and to consider the new requirement for internet service providers not only to block sites that do not have age verification filters in place for children but also to block access to other illegal pornographic material. I agree with other noble Lords that it is very unfortunate that this has come at such a late stage and that we are trying to deal with this important issue so late in the process. We are all at a loss and have lacked something because of it.

Since then, several variations of wording have been taken from Acts that already exist and put forward as the best way of defining the new obligation. We find ourselves having to take a significant decision on which of these various options would best benefit the law going forward. All of them would benefit from further debate.

In this context, and given the sensitivities involved, we welcome the Government’s attempt to strike the right balance on this issue. Government Amendment 25YV is crucial in this regard. It is a short amendment that says:

“Nothing in this Part affects any prohibition or restriction in relation to pornographic material or extreme pornographic material, or powers in relation to such material, under another enactment or a rule of law”.


In other words, if pornographic material is illegal offline, it would also be illegal online. The amendment underlines that point. This is the parity between offline and online that many people have sought, and it echoes the position that the Minister spelled out when we met him recently. We support this approach because we believe that any definition of illegal material transposed into the Bill at this late stage should be based on current statutory definitions.

We also recognise the added challenge that the current legal definitions are not being applied consistently, and that the Crown Prosecution Service guidelines need to be updated—which is another issue that we have been debating this afternoon. Only then will we achieve that true parity in removing offline and online material. But we are firmly of the view that this disparity should be addressed separately, and thoroughly, in conjunction with the Home Office. We are also firmly of the view that today we should focus on the intent of this Bill, which is to introduce age verification processes to stop children under 18 from accessing pornography. The debate this afternoon has muddied the water, because that is very clearly the intent of this part of the Bill, and the way that the government amendments are set out achieves that very important aim.

This is a huge step forward and a key policy prize. It is something that not just the Government but all the main political parties have been committed to. There is no doubt that if it is implemented successfully—although that is a huge ask—there will not be the opportunities for children to access the illegal material that is concerning noble Lords today. I accept of course the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Browne, that this cannot be 100% watertight—none of these things can be. We are on a journey. I think it was one of the right reverend Prelates who said that children are very tech-savvy and we have to keep up with them. Of course we do, so this will not be 100%. But it is a massive step on a journey that will stop an awful lot of casual viewing by children of internet pornography.

That is why we believe that we should retain our focus on children—to prevent all damage to their relationships, self-esteem and mental health, and all the issues which, we understand, result from underage viewing of pornography, which we have debated repeatedly during the course of the Bill.

Of course, that is not to say that there are not other huge social issues about adults viewing violent or degrading pornography—and we all have our views on the level of acceptability of that. I resent the fact that some people think that I am in favour of a free for all, because that is certainly not my position. Some of the issues have been raised by noble Lords today, and of course it is right that they are debated and resolved in the public realm. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Alton, that there needs to be a public debate. It has been lacking until this debate today, which I believe is the beginning rather than the end of a debate which should take place.

We welcome that debate, but we do not feel that amendments to change the definition of illegal pornographic material which adults can access online is appropriate for a part of a Bill that is intended for another purpose. We believe that this should be part of a wider debate which factors in such matters as our traditional tolerance towards consenting adults and the potential consequence of more online material being driven out of reach on to the unregulated dark web if we do not get the regulation right. In this context, we appreciate the opportunity which the Minister has proposed for a wider round-table debate on internet safety and will happily work with colleagues away from the Bill on how we can best deliver solutions to some of the wider concerns that have been expressed today.

In the meantime, we recognise that the definition of extreme pornography now proposed by the Government is not ideal. It may be only a backstop pending a fuller review of more appropriate wording. That is why our Amendment 25YW would require consultation on the definitions used in this part of the Bill and a report from the Secretary of State back to Parliament within 18 months. We think that that would be a real step forward.

Although we have sympathy with the amendment in the name of the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, we are concerned about the more prescriptive end of her review. We agree that there should be a review, but the very fact that she has already spelled out what the outcome should be causes us concern.

Our view remains that we should be looking for an updated definition based on something deliverable online and offline with equal strength. A number of definitions are out there—not just the definition of extreme pornography that we have been debating today. In other pieces of legislation there are other definitions. We need to do a job of work which is more than we can do today to consider all those definitions, consider what the Crown Prosecution Service can deliver in terms of taking action against people, and work on that basis.

I really hope that we can work together on this, because this has felt like a very divided debate. It is not; there is an enormous amount that we agree on. It is the tactics of how we go forward that we are struggling with.

In conclusion, we support the government amendments, as far as they go, but I hope that the Minister will be able to commit to a wider review with a deadline for reform—in conjunction with his Home Office colleagues, because we recognise that this goes wider than his department’s remit. I hope that noble Lords will look at our amendment and support it. I look forward to the Minister’s response.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

My Lords, this has been a wide-ranging debate and I find myself in a slightly uncomfortable position: I am taking issue with several of my noble friends but I very much agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, and the noble Lord, Lord Paddick. If I may, I shall start with the amendments tabled by the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, and the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, and then move on to our amendments and reply to some of the points that noble Lords have made.

Obviously, Amendment 25YD, in the name of the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, is dependent on the preceding government amendments being passed. It provides that, three years after the Act passes, the definition of “extreme pornographic material” will cease to have effect and will be replaced by a definition of material which would not be classified—in effect, the current definition of “prohibited material”.

The debate on this has been strong on both sides, and it is an interesting idea that we have considered. However, our aim with this Bill, as has been said by several noble Lords, is to protect children from accessing pornographic material. We are creating parity between the offline and the online worlds in protecting children from being able to access pornographic material. These are different and incomparable places, and this is the closest we can get on parity of content through the age verification regime. Subject to the Bill shortly gaining Royal Assent, to specify that this should happen in spring 2020 unless a review finds otherwise by spring 2019 is in our view unnecessarily restrictive. It presents a binary choice that predetermines the outcome of any review. We know this is a fast-moving environment, and we do not know what the landscape will look like in two years’ time. Forcing the legislation into doing something which restricts the response to how children are protected online could have unintended consequences.

What we are doing now is: through the guidance to the regulator, we are providing for the regulator to report annually on the effectiveness of the regime. This will provide the opportunity to review the regime and take any necessary action. This is a big step forward without precedent, and to focus on this one issue, which is undoubtedly important, risks being able to ensure that the regime as a whole is as effective as possible in the future at preventing children from accessing pornography online.

The amendment in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, seeks to introduce that the Secretary of State must produce a report on the impact and effectiveness of the regulatory framework provided for in this part and must consult on the definitions used within this part. The report must be laid 12 to 18 months after the powers come into force. We must aim to lay the groundwork for success before the powers are introduced, and the regulatory framework we are providing will do that. However, this will be a bold new regime with many challenges and it is right that the effectiveness of the regime is reviewed. That is why, as I have just said, through the guidance to the regulator we are providing for the regulator to report annually to the Secretary of State on the impact and effectiveness of the regime. Placing a formal requirement on the Secretary of State to do this is, in our opinion, unnecessary.

The Bill is neither the end nor the extent of our interest in child internet safety. The implementation of age verification will be watched closely from day one. We have consistently recognised the need to be flexible in our approach and this will remain the case in addressing any issues that may arise. This work forms part of our wider response to online safety, and the work that has begun in the internet safety strategy demonstrates our clear commitment to ensuring that people in the UK have a positive experience online. I shall come to that a bit later. With that explanation I hope noble Lords will not press their amendments in due course.

I turn now to replies to some of the points noble Lords made about the government amendments. I echo very much the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Paddick. For those who have not participated before in this Bill’s process, it would be helpful to repeat some of the things he said about how we got here. In some ways it is a mischaracterisation—not malicious, I hasten to add, and maybe “misunderstanding” is a better word—that we are watering down the controls, as my noble friend Lord Farmer said, or that we slipped this in at the last minute.

As the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, said, the position we are in is because we have accepted amendments through the course of the Bill. It is a bit unfair of the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, to criticise the fact that this debate is happening so late in the day when the only reason we are having it is because we accepted the amendment in the House of Commons. The issues about where we go on what is effectively internet censorship were raised in Committee in this House. So we are discussing these things because noble Lords and Members of Parliament have changed the Bill as we went on. The one thing on which we all agree—and this has been confirmed all around the House—is that we want to address child online safety. One of the big advantages from this Bill is that, by getting effective age verification in place, we have made a huge step forward.

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[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for explaining the thinking behind these many amendments. I have read them and think that I understand them but I am sure that he will correct me if my interpretation is wrong. They underline the considerable amount of additional work that is still to be done if we are to get a comprehensive age verification scheme properly up and running.

The Minister will know that the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee was of the view that many of the details should be spelled out on the face of the Bill. For example, it expected details such as the definition of “commercial basis” and the identity of the regulator or regulators to be specified at this stage. However, the provision of this information, like many other details, has been put off by the Government to a later date, to be included in the guidelines to which the noble Lord has referred and to be discussed in further debates that will be taken under their auspices.

The DPRRC also requested that guidelines on how the financial penalties should operate should be brought before this House as an affirmative resolution. I remind the House of a particularly stark criticism that it wrote at the time. It said:

“We consider it objectionable as a matter of principle that a regulator, who is to be clothed with extensive powers to impose fines and take other enforcement action, should itself be able to specify how key concepts used in clause 15(1) are to be interpreted”.


I would be grateful if the Minister could justify why what seems to be a rather straightforward piece of advice from that committee has once again been rejected. As I understand the noble Lord’s amendment, it is the offer of a negative procedure that is now being put before us, which of course does not carry the same weight.

The amendments deal also with the provision for appeals, which again were debated at length in Committee. The Minister will know that the DPRRC recommended that a statutory right of appeal should be placed in the Bill. Again this advice seems to have been rejected by the Government and, instead, they are relying on a new formulation of words specifying that those hearing any appeal should be “sufficiently independent” of the age verification regulator. As we have heard, the detail of this “sufficiently independent” regime is spelled out in the draft guidance.

I have to say that we share the view of the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, that this really is not good enough. The guidelines specify that the independent appeals panel will effectively be appointed and funded by the regulator. However, we have tabled a separate amendment—Amendment 25P, which will come up in a later group—that specifies our belief that the appeals process should indeed be fully independent of the regulator. We believe that our amendment is more appropriate than that of the noble Lord, Lord Paddick. It would be helpful if the Minister could explain why the DPRRC’s advice on this matter has been rejected.

I return now to the overall package of government amendments in the group. As I have said, they seem to flag up a great deal of further work that will need to carry on outside the Bill. As it is worded, the Secretary of State will issue guidance to the regulator and the regulator will, in turn, issue guidance for approval to the Secretary of State. That seems a rather cosy arrangement of swapping guidelines back and forth, but it is not quite clear to me at what point Parliament will have the final say in all these matters.

Some of the outcomes will come before the House in the form of affirmative regulations but others will not. We do not yet know who the regulators will be, how the age verification regime will work, how the privacy checks will work, what the definition of “commercial activities” will be, how ancillary services will be defined and, crucially, we do not know how the internet service blocking system will work or what kind of fines will be imposed on those who fail to comply. Without wishing to overlay this, it all feels like a rather unsatisfactory piece of legislation. The amendments before us today and the guidelines that have recently been issued do little to reassure us that the Government really have got the detail of this in hand.

Regrettably, we feel that the Government are in danger of delegating far too many powers to the as yet unspecified regulator. This is an issue that we will return to in the next group of amendments. In the meantime, I look forward to hearing the Minister’s response on the points I have raised.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

My Lords, Amendment 25N in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, seeks to remove the word “sufficiently” from the appeals guidance. I will explain why we do not think that that is necessary.

The draft guidance to the regulator specifies that an appointments board engaged by the regulator must appoint an independent appeals board—independent of the regulator, government and the industries that are most likely to submit an appeal. The draft guidance explains that the members of the independent appeals board, appointed by the appointments board, should be appointed on terms and conditions that ensure their independence. Members should represent a broad spectrum of opinion and experience and be respected in their field. They should also be able to demonstrate a commitment to the standards of conduct set out in the Committee on Standards in Public Life’s The 7 Principles of Public Life. We agree that it is important that there is an independent, open, fair and transparent appeals process. Our amendment to the designation and guidance achieves this. It will deliver an appeals process that gives those affected recourse to an independent appeals panel which is not part of the regulatory body, and where the regulator has no say on who is a member and has no role in making the appeal decision.

Further parliamentary scrutiny at the time of designation will provide an opportunity to ensure that the arrangements are right. As part of the designation process, government Amendment 25Q requires the Secretary of State to lay before Parliament a statement of the reasons why she is satisfied that, for example, any person hearing an appeal will be sufficiently independent. Parliament will then have an opportunity to scrutinise this. In this case, “sufficiently independent” is an adequate description of a most robust appeals process. On that basis, I invite the noble Lord not to move his amendment.

I was somewhat taken aback by the noble Baroness’s criticism of our response to the DPRRC. We thought we had addressed—

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

I am sorry, that has rather thrown me. I was saying that I was surprised by the noble Baroness. We think that we have agreed to the spirit of nearly all of the DPRRC amendments. We have not done everything to the letter but we have agreed to the spirit of its amendments. However, we have written back to the DPRRC about the classification of a regulator—which we will come to later—but that is purely because we are following other legislation.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch]

I specifically asked about the ability to impose fines and so on. That appears to be under a negative resolution in the government amendments.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

We have not designated the financial regulator. We will have to do that. I will check if it is under a negative resolution and undertake to write to the noble Baroness and talk to her about it. I cannot remember what it is, to be quite honest.

The point about the financial regulator—we will come to this in a later amendment—is that we have a disagreement about the extent to which the BBFC should carry out functions. The one thing that we are agreed on is that it should not carry out financial enforcement. We will talk later about what exactly it should and should not do. We have not yet designated who the financial enforcement regulator is—we will do that later—but we want to get the regime up and running before we decide.

The government amendments have addressed many of the points raised today and by other noble Lords during the passage of the Bill. They provide for greater parliamentary scrutiny, include affirmative procedures where there were none and provide greater clarity and direction to the regulator. The direction to the regulator will be laid before Parliament and we have invited noble Lords to contribute to that draft guidance. In all, that will give greater confidence that the measures will be in the best place possible to be successful. I beg to move.

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[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch]

My Lords, I echo many of the concerns raised by the noble Lord, Lord Paddick. We added our name to a similar amendment in Committee and there was a broad degree of support for the principles that were expressed. The amendment returns to the essential need to protect the identity of those who are over 18 and legitimately want to access pornographic sites without having their personal details compromised in the age verification process.

The noble Earl, Lord Erroll, has been very helpful in explaining how the privacy systems would work, using a two-stage process to prove someone’s age and then giving them an encrypted token to use on adult sites. We agree with this model and would like to see it widely adopted. It assumes that age verification would be carried out by a separate age verification provider who has the specific technical skills to carry out these checks securely. However, we also agree that technology is moving on apace and that it would be a mistake to be too prescriptive. We believe that a code of practice, as set out in the amendment, would deliver the protections while allowing that to happen.

That brings us to the draft guidance on the regulator, which the Government published last week and which addresses the issue of privacy. We believe that of all the parts of the draft guidance, the section on privacy is indeed a step forward. It puts the onus on the regulator to work with the Information Commissioner’s Office to ensure that systems are in place to check a user’s privacy while having regard to the Data Protection Act. While we welcome that, we would also like it to address the need for users to have a choice of provider. Again, that is something that we debated at an earlier stage.

In addition, we have a continuing concern that the only provision for data protection breaches is for the ICO to be informed, rather than necessarily for it to act. I hope that the Minister will be able to reassure us that, if there are such breaches, they will indeed be followed up by action.

I hope that the Minister will be able to reassure us on these points. However, we feel that progress is being made on this subject. Depending on what the Minister is able to say in response, it may well be that we will ask the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, not to press the issue at this time.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, and the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, and I thank the noble Earl, Lord Erroll, for his expertise in this area—age verification, I am talking about.

I have some sympathy with the noble Lord and the noble Baroness on this because we, too, have absolute desire for anonymity in these matters. So the Government have sympathy for the intention behind the amendments, but we feel that they go too far and that this amendment is therefore unnecessary. We have already made provisions to cover these concerns under government Amendment 25YQ, which provides that the Secretary of State may issue guidance to the regulator. I assure noble Lords that we approach this issue with the utmost seriousness. We have set out the draft guidance, which noble Lords have mentioned. It is of course draft guidance and, as we say at the beginning of it, we welcome comments—so perhaps some of the comments from today’s debate can be incorporated.

A person making pornographic material available on a commercial basis to persons in the United Kingdom must have an effective process in place to verify that a user is over 18. This age verification already takes place online, from the gambling industry to mobile phone content to purchasing age-protected goods. There are various ways to age-verify online, as the noble Earl explained, and, as the industry is developing rapidly, it is expected that new age verification technologies will develop over time.

Providers are innovating and providing choice to customers. We agree that the process of age verifying for adults should rightly be focused on the need to establish that the user is aged 18 or above, rather than seeking to identify the user. As I have said, age verification controls are already in place without the approval of the age verification providers. For example, licensed gambling sites are required to have age verification controls that are not subject to pre-approval by the regulator but must take account of data protection laws.

We recognise that pornography provides a unique challenge in this space, which is why we are ensuring that the measures in place are stronger than currently exist. As such, the draft guidance to the regulator—I am pleased that in this area at least the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, gave her qualified approval—sets out the detail of how this should be done. Rather than setting out a closed list of age verification arrangements, the regulator’s guidance should specify how it will assess in any given case that the requirements have been met.

The draft guidance, which was published last week, is clear that the process of age verifying for adults should be concerned only with the need to establish that the user is aged 18 or above, rather than seeking to identify the user. The privacy of adult users of pornographic sites must be maintained. We do not want the regulator to duplicate the role of the Information Commissioner’s Office, the UK’s independent body set up to uphold information rights. The draft guidance states:

“The process of age verifying for adults should be concerned only with the need to establish that the user is aged 18 or above, rather than seeking to identify the user. The privacy of adult users of pornographic sites should be maintained and the potential for fraud or misuse of personal data should be safeguarded … The role of the Regulator should be to focus on the ability of arrangements to verify whether someone is over 18 and should be assured that age verification arrangements will protect a user’s privacy”.


That is pretty clear, I think.

As also set out in our draft guidance, the age verification regulator should work with the ICO. The regulator should be clear in its guidance on the requirements that age verification services and online pornography providers will have regard to under data protection legislation and, furthermore, that a privacy-by-design approach should be taken, as recommended by the ICO.

It is right that we do not seek here to duplicate the existing legislative and regulatory framework, but we must ensure that they are built into the age verification process in a meaningful way. We have always been clear that adults should be able to access legal pornographic content and individuals should rightly be protected from unintended consequences when doing so. As I said, we have produced a draft of the Secretary of State’s guidance and are certainly happy to have further discussions ahead of the final version being laid.

Digital Economy Bill

Debate between Lord Ashton of Hyde and Baroness Jones of Whitchurch

Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Thursday 2nd February 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, we all share a common purpose in wanting the new age verification process in Part 3 to be robust, trusted and effective. It is of course vital that we put in place powers to protect children from viewing inappropriate pornographic material, and we have rehearsed the arguments as to why it is important many times before in the House. We therefore believe that there should be an overriding duty of care on internet service providers and ancillary service providers to keep children and young people safe when using these sites.

The details of how this duty should be applied need to be subject to further consultation, which is what our Amendment 54B seeks to achieve. However, more substantially, we are concerned about the scale and the scope of the regulatory functions in the Bill, which to our mind have not been thought through and were not given sufficient scrutiny in the Commons. This was not helped by the fact that substantial new clauses were added to the Bill late on in the process which considerably extend the powers of the age verification regulator. The result is that Part 3 feels very much like a work in progress, with many of the usual checks and balances unresolved.

This was identified by the Constitution Committee and the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee which, as we know, raised a number of specific concerns that we will address in later amendments. By way of example, the Constitution Committee stated:

“We question whether the House can effectively scrutinise the Bill when its scrutiny is impeded by the absence from the face of the Bill of any detail about the operation of the proposed age-verification regime”.


We agree with that point and we have concerns about the whole regulatory structure as it is currently set out in Part 3. That is what Amendment 54D seeks to address.

The amendment in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, specifies that the regulator should be the British Board of Film Classification, and it has been widely assumed that it would take on a similar classification role for online to that which it already carries out for offline. But the new, expanded role set out in Part 3 has much more extensive powers to follow up those who fail to apply age verification filters with fines and ultimately with the blocking of their sites by internet service providers. We believe that these functions are separate and should be carried out by a separate regulator. Indeed, when we recently met the Minister, Matt Hancock, he said that Ofcom was in a better position than the BBFC to handle the financial penalties proposed.

In addition, there is a need to specify who will carry out appeals and to ensure that this is a separate, independent organisation and not one that is appointed by the regulator. This point was raised by the Delegated Powers Committee and again we have tabled separate amendments on it that will come up later. Finally, we would argue that there needs to be effective oversight and supervision of the new regime to ensure proper governance and value for money. Arguably, Ofcom rather than the Secretary of State should have a role in holding both the classification and the enforcement agencies to account, as well as reporting to Parliament from time to time on progress. But of course Ofcom cannot do everything, which is an additional reason why we believe that we need to take time to allocate the different layers of responsibilities correctly.

No doubt other noble Lords, like ourselves, have received over the past few weeks representations from many bodies providing internet service provision, payment and ancillary services. They have raised concerns about the new powers in the Bill and how they will work in practice. Indeed, one of the ISPs went as far as to say that it was so concerned that it was going to redraft the whole of Part 3—so there is a major concern about how the powers are to be allocated. This is why we believe that it is important to get this right by taking more time to consult on the role and functions of the regulator or regulators and to bring a clearer set of proposals back to both Houses. Amendment 54D would achieve this objective.

We believe that we need to take extra time to get this right. It should not be left to the Secretary of State and the eventual system for protecting children, which is something we all agree with, will be much more robust as a result. I beg to move.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Lord Ashton of Hyde) (Con)]

My Lords, with the permission of the Committee, it may be helpful if I say a few words before other noble Lords make their contributions in order to help the rest of our debate on this part of the Bill and to put on record the Government’s position on a key issue that we will be debating today.

The BBFC is going to be given powers in the Bill to give notice to payment service providers and ancillary service providers under Clause 22 and to ISPs under Clause 23 of websites that have inadequate age verification as well as prohibited material. Many noble Lords have raised concerns with me about the scope of what amounts to “prohibited material”, so let me put on record what I have been telling those noble Lords in the many meetings we have had. The Government disagree that “prohibited material” should be excluded from the regulator’s powers. We must not unintentionally legitimise all types of pornographic content as long as age verification controls are in place. Extreme pornography can involve dangerous content. The current definition of “prohibited material” in the Bill would bring parity with the offline world—material that would not be classified by the BBFC, including material that is in breach of criminal law.

The Government’s intention is to protect children from harmful content. We have listened to the arguments that in doing so, the drafting of the Bill may have unintentionally extended the powers of the regulator too far. We all share a common goal of keeping children safe and the Government will ensure that, in achieving this aim, we have a proportionate and fair impact on others who enjoy the freedoms and equalities that are important to everyone. So I can commit that we will give this further consideration in order to reach a conclusion that this House agrees is a satisfactory way of meeting our aims of protecting children from harmful pornographic content. I will be very happy to discuss this with interested Peers before Report.

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[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his opening statement and for his comments now, but I do not really feel that he addressed our concerns about the overarching architecture of the regulatory structure: where the power should lie, the detail of which regulator has which functions and so on, and whether there is a need for someone to oversee the whole regime.

I also thank the Minister for his offer of further discussions about this, but as a number of noble Lords have said, it is rather frustrating that the information and debate that we ought to be having here in Committee is being shifted backwards so that we will have it in correspondence or perhaps offline before Report. Normally, we would expect the government proposals to be in front of us here, so that we can debate them in detail. As the noble Baroness, Lady Byford, said, once again we find that the debates that we should be having in Committee are happening on Report, which makes it very frustrating for everybody involved. That also applies to the reports from the Delegated Powers Committee and the Constitution Committee. With respect, the Government have had those documents for several weeks now, and I would have thought it would have been possible to have given us a response as to how the Government intend to react to them before today’s debate. I find this whole process for considering Part 3 very frustrating. Notwithstanding that, I know that the Minister means well and I am sure we will all want to take up his offer of further discussions, if that is possible.

The noble Baroness, Lady Howe, made a very good point about who the other regulator will be, and I was not sure that the Minister really answered it. Again, if we are going to get down to putting in the Bill that the BBFC will have part of that function, it is right that we should also say who will have the other part of it; otherwise, the Bill is not going to make sense. So I have an ongoing sense of frustration. Some of the issues that a number of noble Lords have raised will spill into some of the discussions that we will have on other amendments and will no doubt come up several times, regrettably, although maybe that is just because of the way that we have structured some of the amendments.

I agree absolutely with the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, that we need a much clearer definition of ancillary service providers. To the outside world, that is a non-phrase really, but it means either so much or so little, and we just need some clearer definition of what it means in terms of the responsibilities of social media providers. It may well be, as I think the noble Lord was suggesting, that some of them have different responsibilities from others, but we need that debate. It is a really important debate, since, as the noble Baroness was saying, children are accessing this material and there do not seem to be any real proposals in front of us for how we are going to get a grip on that. That is perhaps something that we can return to later as we debate other provisions in Part 3.

Finally, I think the Minister strayed into the whole issue of what is prohibited material. Again, we have amendments on that later and will return to it when those are discussed, but I thought that we had made more progress on that than the Minister is now suggesting. I know that a number of noble Lords had a meeting with Matt Hancock, the Minister, a couple of weeks ago, and I thought that we were edging towards a new form of words, but it does not seem that this is before us from what the Minister has said. So again, we have a level of frustration about this.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

Let me confirm that I hope we are edging towards some agreement; it is just that, as the noble Baroness will be aware, there are times when one can announce these things and there are times when one cannot. I agree with her that it is somewhat frustrating—in the same way that it is frustrating when, though we have had the Explanatory Memorandum since the Summer Recess, amendments appear at the last minute. It is a frustrating process.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch]

Well, this is because the discussion has gone on over the summer, with the Government and with other people. We have been seeking clarification, which we have not had, which is why we finally put down amendments. Anyway, this debate is going to continue, I think, through the course of Part 3. In the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

My Lords, this has been an important and interesting debate—I can tell that by the number of Peers who are arriving to hear my response. I also appreciate very much the offer of help given by the noble Baroness, Lady Jones. I have listened carefully to the arguments and again I acknowledge that we are not able to give our answer on the DPRRC’s report, but as the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, said, it is very important to get it right and we will produce the response soon.

The age verification regime was designed to provide a proportionate and practical response to the very real problem of the easy availability of internet pornography to children, and we need to bear that in mind when considering this issue. Amendments 55A, 69 and 229B are concerned with appeals. The BBFC has a strong track record in running the system of classification, including a two-stage appeals process which includes an appeal to an independent authority. We understand the desire to specify in detail in the Bill what an appeals process must look like for what is undoubtedly a serious matter, but we are satisfied that the BBFC is in a strong position to develop and administer a fit-for-purpose appeals process. Clause 17 specifies that the Secretary of State may not designate the regulator until satisfied that arrangements will be maintained by the regulator for appeals by the key persons involved in the regulatory framework, as set out in Clause 17(4)(a) to (e). As the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, said, the DPRRC has made some well-considered recommendations on appeals that we are considering and will be responding to before Report.

Amendments 54C, 56A and 62A provide that the Secretary of State must, in regulations made by statutory instrument, lay guidelines before each House of Parliament on different areas of the regulatory framework. The internet, as we all know, is a fast-changing area and the legislation has been drafted with the necessary flexibility to create a proportionate regulatory framework. For example, it will be for the regulator to publish guidance about ancillary service providers. I have also noted the recommendation of the DPRRC on these matters and I can assure noble Lords that we are considering it carefully before responding.

On the issue of ISP blocking, government Amendment 67 ensures that the regulator must not direct an ISP to block a non-compliant site should that be detrimental to national security, the prevention or detection of serious crime, or an offence listed in Schedule 3 to the Sexual Offences Act 2003. We believe that it is right that the actions of the regulator in seeking to protect children from pornographic content should not have unintended consequences for the work of law enforcement and the security and intelligence agencies in combating serious crime and protecting national security. I am confident that the industry will take a responsible position and therefore envisage that the regulator will need to use this power only sparingly. However, where it does need to be used, I would suggest that the regulator would never wish to be in a position where it might have an unintended impact on efforts to ensure public safety.

The provision provides an important safeguard for circumstances in which a site might form part of an investigation. The Government and the regulator will agree arrangements for how the deconfliction process will take place. This is an important step towards ensuring that the regulatory regime functions in a successful way and giving the regulator a framework in which to succeed.

Amendment 66 tabled in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, and other noble Lords brings forward blocking by court order. We recognise that providing the regulator with the power to direct internet service providers to block content is a serious step, but the conflicting views of noble Lords in the debate show that this is a difficult area to get right. We have always been clear that we want to build an effective regime. This is fundamentally different content to regimes where court orders are used. As I have said, and the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, agreed, we envisage that the regulator will need to use this power only sparingly. However, the cost and process of the court order procedure would place an undue burden on the system We know that the court order process for copyright, for example, is not without issues, and unlike copyright where the individual is seeking a court order, in this case there is a regulator with expertise in classification.

It is important to note that our regime is about encouraging compliance by the industry. Giving the regulator the power to direct internet service providers is the proportionate and right approach to ensuring that children are not inadvertently exposed to harmful pornographic material. With that explanation, I hope that the noble Baroness will withdraw her amendment.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have contributed to this discussion. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Morrow, that we are all trying to balance child protection and civil liberties; that is the issue we are trying to resolve. Indeed, there is no black-and-white answer and it may well be that we will need to have further discussions. But I remind noble Lords that the Delegated Powers Committee said that it considered it objectionable for an unspecified regulator—people have talked about it being the BBFC but I do not think it necessarily will be—to have so much power to impose fines and take other enforcement action. We need to look again at how we can ensure some other oversight of those powers. Amendment 66 would provide a legal structure for all that, and we still feel it would provide the certainty that does not exist under Clause 23. Further, it would provide a degree of independent oversight, which Clause 23 as it stands does not.

I say again that the ISPs caught in the middle of all of this are very concerned about the way Clause 23 is worded. They feel that they will be caught in the middle of legal battles, and it may well be that whatever we decide, these matters will end up in court anyway. Given that, the more legal clarity and specification we can put in the Bill, the better, because that will help everyone to understand their rights. Some noble Lords have also queried the appeals process, but it is important to spell out not only what that process should be, but that it should be independent. Again, our amendments seek to achieve that.

I know that the noble Lord has said that he wants to come back to this when the more detailed response to the Delegated Powers Committee’s report has been produced. I hope that our amendments have been helpful and that they may provide a working copy from which he can put his ideas together. In the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Digital Economy Bill

Debate between Lord Ashton of Hyde and Baroness Jones of Whitchurch

Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Thursday 2nd February 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

My Lords, this is an important debate, dealing not just with age verification but whether prohibited material should be included. I do not want to stand here and defend opposition amendments or put words into the mouth of the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, who can correct me if I am wrong, but I do not think that the object of the exercise was to completely get rid of prohibited material; it was to raise the extent to which the definitions may have exceeded what was originally intended. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Browne, and others that the point is that the current definition of prohibited material in the Bill allows the BBFC to consider content based on its existing hard-copy guidelines. We recognise that some think this goes too far and therefore we are continuing to listen to views on that. On the other hand, asking the regulator to consider only classifiable pornographic content creates the real risk that more extreme content will proliferate further.

I realise that it would have been easier if we had had a definition in front of us today. I know that we have discussed this with various noble Lords. The noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, is obviously teasing me because he knows that it takes time. As a lawyer, he will know that these issues are complex, and we have to make sure that all parts of government are happy with the wording. I shall repeat, for the benefit of the noble Baroness, Lady Benjamin, and other noble Lords, the important bits of what I said this morning. It is our intention to protect children from harmful content. Therefore, we have listened to the arguments that, in so doing, the drafting of the Bill may have unintentionally extended the powers of the regulator too far.

I committed this morning—and do so again—to giving this further consideration in order to reach a conclusion that this House agrees is a satisfactory way of meeting our aims of protecting children from harmful pornographic content. I repeat my offer to discuss this with interested Peers. I think that the noble Lord, Lord Browne, and the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, can be temporarily satisfied that we do not intend to get rid of prohibited material entirely. There is not much more to say at the moment, but we will come back to this on Report. In the meantime, I would be grateful if the noble Baroness would withdraw her amendment.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch]

I am grateful to the Minister. He is absolutely right and I am sorry if I did not make that clear. When we were proposing to take those words out, we were rather hoping that somebody would come up with a definition that would replace them—it was not just an attempt to take them out finally and for ever. It rather highlights the fact that we do not have another form of words to be working with today.

I do not envy the Minister in trying to balance all these different desires to get the wording right. We agree with the principle that offline and online should be dealt with on the same basis, but the problem is that in practice, what happens with offline material is not what is necessarily captured in the current legislation. That is the difficulty we are trying to grapple with. Our aim is to maintain the status quo. We do not want to ruffle any feathers or change anything. We want to make sure that what people can access online has the same checks and balances as offline has at the moment. The problem is the lack of a current substantial legal definition. As I said, there is a grey area, so we have to work our way through it. That is the difficulty.

As I said, I do not think that we should start redefining anything massively without a public consultation. People have talked about that and I agree. We are simply trying to protect the status quo so that adults who currently look at material can carry on looking at it—and this has nothing to do with child protection and children’s access to pornography. We need to understand what we are aiming for, but it is a question of getting the wording right. I am sure that the noble Lord will come up with something with which we can all agree in the medium term. In the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch]

I support the comments that have been made by a number of noble Lords. I think we all understand the need for particular care to protect the identity of those who are over 18 and legitimately want to access pornographic sites. Apart from anything else, as has been said, we must protect those individuals from blackmail threats.

In this respect, the age verification process has to be more rigorous in providing anonymity than other regulations where proof of credit card details may have sufficed, but may also have made identification of the individual all too easy. The noble Baroness, Lady Howe, is not in her place, but I understand that the site that does the gambling checks does it on the basis of credit card details. Clearly, that would not be appropriate in the context of the issues we are grappling with here.

Thankfully, as we have heard, the technology is catching up with the need and there are now new age verification provider sites that can carry out the age checks. I am grateful to the noble Earl, Lord Erroll, for explaining in some detail how that works; it is all very reassuring. I do not think I have anything else to add: we have a consensus that some such measure needs to be built into the legislation, and I hope the Minister will agree with us.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords again, particularly the noble Earl, Lord Erroll, for the teach-in.

Amendment 68 calls for the regulator to approve age verification providers and to publish a code of practice with which those providers must comply. This was similar or identical to the amendment that was rejected in the other place in Committee and on Report. I am afraid that the Government do not consider this clause necessary. However, I can assure noble Lords that we approach this issue with the utmost seriousness.

Clause 15(3) already requires the regulator to publish guidance about the types of arrangements it will treat as being in compliance. As the noble Earl explained, the technology is with us and the providers of age verification controls will be subject to data protection laws. The BBFC is already in discussion with the Information Commissioner’s Office to ensure that best practice is observed. It has indicated that it will give the highest priority to ensuring that the guidance it issues reflects data protection standards. The Government and the BBFC are also in discussion with the Information Commissioner’s Office on privacy and data requirements to ensure that the appropriate guidance is issued, as they are experts in this field.

The Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee has additionally made a recommendation on the approach to the types of arrangements for making pornographic material available that the regulator will treat as complying with Clause 15(1). We are considering whether we can address those concerns and, as I said, will respond as soon as possible.

As the noble Earl explained, innovative age verification solutions are coming to market, and we want to ensure that the regulator is enabled to make a determination as to the sufficiency of different and new controls. As noble Lords know, there are existing privacy and data security protections provided by the Data Protection Act 1998, administered by the Information Commissioner’s Office. The Act established a framework for the protection of personal data, balancing the privacy rights of individuals with the legitimate needs of organisations to make use of such data. It ensures respect for individuals’ rights to privacy and keeps their personal information secure from abuse. The Act ensures that data are handled safely and securely. It is right therefore that we do not seek here to duplicate this legislative and regulatory framework. However, we agree that we must ensure that it is built into the age verification process in a meaningful way and, as I have said, we will provide a response to the DPRRC recommendation on this matter. In the meantime, I hope the noble Lord will withdraw the amendment.

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[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

My Lords, the Government take the harm caused by online abuse and harassment very seriously, and we will continue to invest in law enforcement capabilities to ensure that all online crime is dealt with properly.

Amendment 70 would require the Government to carry out a review of online abuse and lay a report before Parliament within six months of Royal Assent. We do not believe that it is necessary to include provision for a review in primary legislation. As part of the ending violence against women and girls strategy, we have established an official government working group to map out the current issues, prevalence, initiatives and barriers to addressing gendered online abuse and to produce an action plan.

We are absolutely clear that abusive and threatening behaviour is totally unacceptable in any form, either offline or online. As the Committee will be aware, any action that is illegal when committed offline is also illegal if committed online. Current legislation, some of which was passed before the digital age, has shown itself to be flexible and capable of catching and punishing offenders, whether their crimes were committed by digital means or otherwise. The Protection from Harassment Act 1997 was amended to introduce two new stalking offences to cover conduct that takes place online as well as offline. In addition, the Government will be introducing a new civil stalking protection order to protect victims further.

We will continue to take action where we find gaps in the legislation, just as we did with cyberstalking, harassment and the perpetrators of grossly offensive, obscene or menacing behaviour, and of course we introduced a new law making the fast-growing incidence of revenge porn a specific criminal offence.

The Law Commission recently consulted on including a review of the law covering online abuse as part of its 13th programme of law reform, which will launch later this year. It is expected to confirm with Ministers shortly which projects it proposes should be included.

We are also working to tackle online abuse in schools and have invested £1.6 million to fund a number of anti-bullying organisations.

In addition, we are working to improve the enforcement response to online abuse and harassment so that it can respond to changing technologies. The Home Office has also allocated £4.6 million for a digital transformation programme to equip forces with the tools to police the digital age effectively and to protect the victims of digital crime, including online abuse and harassment. Police and prosecutors evidence offences carried out digitally, non-digitally or both. The CPS Guidelines on Prosecuting Cases Involving Communications Sent via Social Media makes clear the range of criminal law which can be brought to bear on offences committed through social media. Moreover, from April 2015, police forces have been recording online instances of crimes, including stalking and harassment.

I shall talk about the next three amendments together, as they all cover the duties of social media sites. Amendment 71AA seeks to make it a requirement for all social media sites to carry out a safety impact assessment. Amendment 71AB seeks to require Ministers to issue a code of practice to ensure that commercial social media platform providers make a consistent and robust response to online abuse on their sites by identifying and assessing online abuse. Amendment 233A seeks to impose a duty on social media services to respond to reports posted on their sites of material which passes the criminal test—that is, that the content would, if published by other means or communicated in person, cause a criminal offence to be committed.

The Government expect social media and interactive services to have robust processes in place that can quickly address inappropriate content and abusive behaviour on their sites. On the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady O’Neill, it is incumbent on all social media companies to provide an effective means for users to report content and perform the actions that they say they will take to deal with this. We believe a statutory code of practice is unworkable because there is no one-size-fits-all solution. Dealing properly with inappropriate content and abuse will vary by service and incident. Technological considerations might differ by platform and as innovation develops. Users will benefit most if companies develop their own bespoke approach for reporting tools and in-house processes.

Social media companies take down content that is violent or incites violence if it breaches their terms and conditions. We expect them to inform the police where they identify significant threats or illegal activity happening on their sites. It is, however, extremely difficult to identify where the threat has come from and whether it is serious. We work closely with companies to flag terrorist-related content and have so far secured the voluntary removal of over 250,000 pieces of content since 2010.

I can assure the Committee that we share the sentiments expressed in these amendments. At the moment, though, they are not practical or necessary, so I hope on that basis noble Lords will not press their amendments.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch]

My Lords, first, I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Janke, for stressing her point on enforcement. That is at the heart of the debate that we are having today. A lot of fine words are being said, but they are lacking the guts and enforcement to make any real change.

I am also grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady O’Neill, who quite rightly made the point that material does not consistently get taken down. That very much chimes with evidence that we have received as well. Luciana Berger MP has made the point that, even when a case of anti-Semitism was taken to court and the perpetrator was taken to jail, the site that they had created stayed up on social media and was still there for anyone to access—that cannot be right. It raises questions about the responsibility of social media sites and whether they are acting with enough responsibility and consistency.

I was really saddened by the Minister’s response this afternoon, because I felt there was a degree of complacency in what he said. I do not know how much more evidence he needs to realise that the current arrangements are not working. As we have been saying, children and adults are suffering. There does not seem to be a mechanism where, if you feel that you are being abused, threatened, or having vile things said about you on sites, you can get any consistent recourse to have the matter dealt with. People say, time and again, that social media sites and the police are not working together consistently. On some occasions social media sites take action, but then the police do not follow it up. Sometimes it is vice versa: the police get involved, but then the social media sites do not carry out their responsibilities. This needs another look at—whatever the level or structure for which that is appropriate.

I will not press my amendments today, but I will not give up on this issue. I say to the noble Lord—and it may be that we can have further discussions on this—that a more robust response is needed from the Government than we have had so far, so I hope we can carry on this discussion. I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Brexit: Creative Industries

Debate between Lord Ashton of Hyde and Baroness Jones of Whitchurch

Monday 30th January 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

It would of course be much diminished if people were not allowed to move in connection with the arts, but I do not think that is what the Government are trying to achieve. We want free movement of all people connected with the arts. We want to make that a priority of the negotiations with the EU.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister will know that the creative industries employ hundreds of thousands of EU nationals here in the UK, in everything from basic grades in the hospitality sector to highly specialist choreographers, visual effects designers and so on. All those individuals now face huge uncertainty about their future here, which affects their work, family and relationships. Why will the Government not act now to end that uncertainty and guarantee their right to stay, rather than use them as pawns in some future negotiations over which they have no control and no say?

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

The fact that the Prime Minister made this one of her 12 negotiating objectives shows that we absolutely take it seriously. All we are asking for is that, when we guarantee rights for EU citizens living in this county, EU countries guarantee rights for UK citizens living abroad.