Statutory Sick Pay Percentage Threshold (Revocations, Transitional and Saving Provisions) (Great Britain and Northern Ireland) Order 2014
Lord Bates Excerpts(10 years, 3 months ago)
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Lord Bates
That the Grand Committee do consider the Statutory Sick Pay Percentage Threshold (Revocations, Transitional and Saving Provisions) (Great Britain and Northern Ireland) Order 2014.
Relevant document: 19th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments.
Lord Bates (Con)
My Lords, in my view the Statutory Sick Pay Percentage Threshold (Revocations, Transitional and Saving Provisions) (Great Britain and Northern Ireland) Order 2014 is compatible with the European Convention on Human Rights.
I am aware that there are minor typographical errors in the draft order before the Committe. These do not affect the meaning of the order and they will be put right if Parliament approves the order and it is signed and reprinted.
By way of background, every year, more than 130 million working days are lost to sickness absence with huge associated costs to employers, employees and the wider economy. For example, sickness absences cost the economy around £15 billion a year, predominantly in lost output. Employers face an annual bill of around £9 billion for sick pay and associated costs, and individuals miss out on £4 billion a year through lost earnings. In addition to this, around 300,000 people a year fall out of work and into the welfare system because of health-related issues.
The state spends around £12 billion a year on health-related benefits and £2 billion a year on healthcare, sick pay reimbursement and forgone taxes. The levels of sickness absence and the effect on individuals, business and the economy are clearly a cause for concern and the Government must do what they can to address these issues. We know that, in general, being in work improves well-being. There is a strong correlation between remaining in work and positive health and well-being outcomes. This is why, back in 2010, the Government commissioned an independent review of sickness absence to investigate the current system. The aim of the review was to find ways to minimise the loss of work through ill health and to reduce the burden on and costs to employers, individuals and the state.
As noble Lords will be aware, the review was published in 2011. It made a number of observations and recommendations to improve the effectiveness of restoring people to work including: the abolition of the statutory sick pay percentage threshold scheme, which offers limited reimbursement to some employers for statutory sick pay costs; the creation of an independent, state-funded health and advice service available to employees, employers and general practitioners; and tax incentives to encourage active sickness absence management.
By way of background, employers have a responsibility to pay statutory sick pay to qualifying employees who are absent from work due to ill health. The weekly rate of statutory sick pay is currently £86.70 and it is payable for up to 28 weeks. The percentage threshold scheme allows employers to claim reimbursement of statutory sick pay costs when they reach above a set percentage—in this case, 13%—of their monthly national insurance liability.
Returning to the review, the Government agreed with the reviewers, Dame Carol Black and David Frost CBE, that the percentage threshold scheme can be seen to financially reward employers where sickness absence is highest and provides no incentive to manage sickness absence in the workforce. This was not the intention of the scheme when it was introduced in 1995. Therefore, the Government have accepted the recommendation to abolish the statutory sick pay percentage threshold scheme. This is part of a wider programme of measures to encourage a more proactive approach to managing sickness absence in the workplace by both employers and employees. The abolition of the scheme gives us the means to invest into establishing the recommended state health and work assessment and advisory service. To be known as the health and work service, it will be implemented in Great Britain in 2014 and will ensure that public funds are used to tackle sickness absence in a more effective and targeted way than the percentage threshold scheme.
The proposed new service has been broadly welcomed by business. For the first time many smaller businesses will have access to work-focused occupational health assessment and advice, which will support an earlier return to work for their employees. To further help employers, the Government are planning a tax exemption for any health-related interventions funded by employers for their employees, as was recommended by the independent review.
In conclusion, I am sure that your Lordships will agree that the money currently spent each year on the percentage threshold scheme will be more effective when reinvested into the new health and work service. We expect a reduction in lost working days and an earlier return to work for many employees. In return, this will bring benefits to business, employees and the wider economy. I commend the order to the Committee.
Baroness Sherlock (Lab)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for that explanation. I woke yesterday morning to hear on the radio an announcement about a wonderful new scheme the Government are planning to introduce called the health and work service, which would cover England, Wales and Scotland. I wonder what happens in Northern Ireland. I am not sure I caught that. This scheme would offer voluntary medical assessments and treatment plans for employees. There was nothing in that bulletin to inform the listener that this would be paid for by scrapping the percentage threshold scheme, or PTS, which enables employers to reclaim some of the costs of statutory sick pay, or SSP, from the state. I will be charitable and assume that this is because Parliament has not yet approved this order. I know that Ministers are loath to let anything slip out to the media before Parliament has had the opportunity to scrutinise it in great detail—although I confess that, somehow, the BBC had got hold of that side of the story on its website a little later.
These regulations abolish the percentage threshold scheme, and we are assured that stakeholders welcomed the change, apart from one employer representative group which was concerned about the impact on small employers of removing the remaining element of SSP reimbursement. We were told that the average amount claimed under the scheme in 2009-10 was £500 per year, per claimant—that is, per employer claiming. That may not sound a lot, but the impact assessment also tells us that micro-employers, those with fewer than 10 workers, receive 70% of the recovery, and £500 can be a lot of money to a micro-employer.
I know of a church in Durham, where I live, the sole employee of which is a rather wonderful youth worker; the vicar, of course, is paid by the diocese. Sadly, the youth worker has been off sick for some months. It was a big decision for the church to hire her, but it decided to dip into its reserves to hire a youth worker to work not just with the children in the church but children in the local community. Unfortunately, she has developed a condition which means that she has been off sick for some months. She is brilliant and the church does not want to lose her, but money is tight. Thanks to the PTS, it has been able to get some of the SSP back, so it can afford to pay a locum to do at least some of the work. At the moment, a locum youth worker is running a wonderful club for a few weeks for year 6 children in the neighbourhood to help them prepare for moving up to secondary school. However, my point is that £500 to that church is a lot of money. Can the Minister tell the Committee whether the Government have talked to micro-employers about the likely impact of this change on their operations? According to the Black review of sickness absence, micro-employers represent 82% of employers; obviously, they represent a smaller percentage of employees, but that is a lot of employers.
The argument made in the Black review is that PTS compensates mainly small employers for “higher-than-average sickness absence” but fails to promote attendance management; I think that was the point the Minister was making. That seems to me to fail to distinguish between two things that were rammed home to me in business school in assessing sickness absence in an organisation: the number of periods of sickness and the number of days of sickness. If you have a lot of periods of sickness, a lot of employees off for a small number of days, that can tell you something about whether people are taking sick leave a lot and it can tell you something about morale. The total number of days can be completely skewed in a small organisation by one person having a very serious illness. I did not see that distinction made. A good example would be this church, which would look as though it had a terrible sickness record but that is because one youth worker happened to develop a condition.
I am trying to draw this out, because I wonder if the Minister could help me to understand. The assumption is that those who get most of the money are small organisations with higher than average sickness absences, which therefore fail to promote attendance management. I wonder whether the evidence backs that up. Can the Minister help me to understand that rationale? The impact assessment says that the abolition of the PTS removes a transfer of some £50 million from the Exchequer to businesses and that the new health and work advisory service will generate a net value of around £70 million for employers—£120 million in benefits minus £50 million in intervention costs, I gather. There will also be a presumed benefit to the state.
The Minister can correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding is that that means that all the current spend on the PTS of £50 million is being recycled into the new scheme. Can the Minister confirm that? The assumption is therefore that businesses are not losing out. However, if that is true, what calculations have been made as to how evenly the gains and losses will be distributed? After all, if 70% of the benefit of the PTS goes to micro-employers, is it assumed that 70% of the benefits of the new service will be enjoyed by micro-employers? The impact assessment says that smaller employers are expected to benefit disproportionately, as they are less likely to have their own rehabilitation and occupational health services, but it did not quantify that. Can the Minister tell the Committee if any assessment was made? If so, what is the distinction? Within smaller employers is a large group: micro-employers are those who have fewer than 10 workers. Was any distinction made between those two categories?
A crucial question is whether the fact that in future employers will bear the full cost of SSP is likely to have any effect on their willingness to hire or retain staff whom they may judge likely to need it. In other words, will they discriminate against staff who have a potential health issue or have had a health record in the past that gives them cause for concern? The impact analysis does not address that directly, but under the heading “Key Assumptions/Sensitivities/Risks” it includes the following assumption:
“The removal of the PTS doesn’t precipitate (illegal) discrimination by employers against employees with poor sickness absence records”.
Can the Minister tell the Committee what evidence underpins that assumption? I am not saying that that will happen but I would be glad to know why the noble Lord, Lord Freud, felt sufficiently confident that it would not to sign off the impact assessment without that assumption spelt out in it.
My other question about these regulations relates to whether there is any risk that employees will be less likely to receive SSP under the new system. In consequence of the abolition of the PTS, the Government have also produced a set of regulations which have not yet taken effect, which propose to abolish the requirement on employers to maintain records for each employee relating to sickness absence and the payment of SSP for three years after the end of the tax year where SSP was paid. I refer to the Statutory Sick Pay (Maintenance of Records) (Revocation) Regulations 2014.
Can the Minister tell us what risk assessment the Government have undertaken as to the likelihood of employers not paying SSP correctly or at all once the record-keeping requirement is abolished alongside the order we are discussing today? The Explanatory Note which covers both orders tells us that HMRC will retain the power to require an employer to produce records to show them that SSP has been paid appropriately. What discussions has the department had with HMRC to satisfy itself that there will not be an unintended consequence of some employees not getting the money to which they are entitled? The Explanatory Note also says:
“Stakeholder engagement found that employers maintain records of sickness absence for payroll, tax and other staff management reasons”.
Can the Minister confirm that those stakeholders include individuals from or representing micro-enterprises?
Finally, the 2011 Black review on sickness absence recommended that the Government should carry out further research into the reasons behind the significant number of people claiming ill health benefits who come straight from work, especially from smaller employers. That is the earlier Black review. It recommended that the Government carry out further research into the reason why significant numbers of people claiming ill health benefits who come straight from work appear not to have been paid sick pay by their employer beforehand. Has that been done?
My very final question is that the impact assessment notes that HMRC periodically visits businesses to see if their payroll is running smoothly and it reviews payroll documentation including SSP and sickness absence records. Can the Minister clarify whether on those visits HMRC will still routinely review SSP records? I look forward to the Minister’s reply.
Lord Bates
I thank the noble Baroness for her questions and for the case study she gave us from the diocese of Durham, which of course I have a strong affinity with and want to see everything possible done to help. In considering that, the best thing that could happen to any small employer in that situation is that the employee returns to the workplace. The question is whether, through this reallocation of the resource from the threshold scheme to the health and work service, it is more likely that the person concerned will find a pathway back to the employer and the workplace, which is the best solution all round. Our view is that it will and that it is a better use of the resource.
The noble Baroness asked how the £50 million that is currently paid under the threshold scheme will be allocated. It will be used to fund the health and work scheme and the tax exemption for interventions which was announced in the Autumn Statement. Where interventions are recommended to get somebody back to work which incur a cost—for example, the provision of physiotherapy or a particular piece of equipment or a change in working practices—the employer will be able to offset that cost. Many large national or multinational companies have sophisticated HR departments which seek to address all these issues to get employees back into the workplace as soon as possible. However, micro-employers do not have that facility. They will be able to take advantage of the new scheme and make some savings as a result of it. That is one of the reasons why it is widely welcomed by them. Micro-employers will benefit more than larger employers for the reasons I have outlined.
Less than 10% of micro-employers make claims under the percentage threshold scheme, which raises another point that the scheme is so complicated and complex that many micro-employers who could benefit from it do not take advantage of it at present because they do not appreciate that it is there. We hope that with the publicity surrounding the new way of working through GPs and employers and employees, more will take advantage of the service, and that will be to the benefit of all. Micro-employers currently receive around 70% of the money paid out under the scheme. The average claim under the scheme is less than £500 a year, but this masks considerable variation. For example, around 25% of micro-employers claimed less than £200 in 2008-09.
The noble Baroness asked about a particular church employee. The health and work service will support the employee and the employer in the diocese to try to find a plan to enable the person concerned to return to work under the new scheme. She also asked why the scheme will not apply to Northern Ireland. However, this is a fully devolved matter for Northern Ireland and therefore it will make its own decisions on how the scheme will operate. The health and work scheme will apply just to England and Wales.
The noble Baroness asked about the abolition of associated SSP record-keeping. Employers will still need to maintain SSP records for pay-as-you-earn and tax purposes. There is no evidence to suggest that employers will not meet their SSP obligations as a result of record-keeping abolition. The HMRC statutory payments disputes process will continue to ensure that employers meet their obligations. There will be ongoing monitoring of disputes and the actions which are taken.
I think that that covers many of the points which were made. However, the noble Baroness may be about to tell me—
Baroness Sherlock
I would hate to disappoint the Minister and I thank him for going through so many of my questions.
I have a couple of specific points. His answer to my concerns about the record-keeping point was that the Government assume that since employers keep records anyway, there is no reason to assume they will cease to keep them. They say that in its routine visits HMRC currently inspects payroll records, including SSP records. Is it the intention of the Government that it will continue to inspect SSP records on these visits, even though companies are not specifically required to keep them in the form that is described here? The suspense is killing me—I look forward to hearing that answer.
Can the Minister explain again the position of micro-employers? My understanding was that 70% of the benefit was going to micro-employers, but I think he said it would be only 10% of the claims. Perhaps he could help me to understand that. The point I was trying to draw him out on, about the fact that the new service will more than compensate for the loss of the PTS, was that I can see that across populations that is true but if, as a micro-employer, you have only one or two employees and they cannot be got back to work because of the nature of their conditions, they will lose out. Was any thought given to whether they might be protected from that in some way?
Lord Bates
The noble Baroness asked about the HMRC visits. I am delighted to give her the answer, which is yes. She also asked for clarification on the 10% figure. I said that less than 10% of micro-employers make claims under the percentage threshold scheme, which I think was the point she was asking for clarification on.
I hope that noble Lords will agree that the abolition of the percentage threshold scheme is important so that savings can be reinvested in the new health and work service, which will benefit both employers and employees in reducing lost working days and increasing economic output. I commend the order to the Committee.
Automatic Enrolment (Earnings Trigger and Qualifying Earnings Band) Order 2014
Lord Bates Excerpts(10 years, 3 months ago)
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Lord Bates
That the Grand Committee do consider the Automatic Enrolment (Earnings Trigger and Qualifying Earnings Band) Order 2014.
Relevant document: 19th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments.
Lord Bates (Con)
My Lords, I am pleased to introduce this instrument, which was laid before the House on 15 January. I am satisfied that it is compatible with the European Convention on Human Rights.
Our task today is to consider the automatic enrolment figures that will set minimum savings levels from this April. The automatic enrolment earnings trigger sets the automatic entry point to determine who saves in a workplace pension. The qualifying earnings band then determines how much people save and sets employer minimum contribution levels.
This debate is now an annual fixture on our calendar—automatic enrolment is business as usual in so many respects. There is much on which we agree and we share common ground on the principles of automatic enrolment. The aim of automatic enrolment is to broaden access to workplace pensions and increase savings levels. In the end everybody should be able to say, “I’m in”, because saving is the norm. We can see from early opt-out figures that the trend is to stay in. That is enormously encouraging.
First and foremost, automatic enrolment needs to target those workers who are not saving but should be. To do this, it needs to exclude those very low earners for whom saving on top of the pension that they will get from the state may not make economic sense, especially while they have other priorities. It also needs to provide low earners with access to pension saving—with an employer contribution—if saving is the right decision for them.
This year there is a new element in the mix. This will be the significant year when automatic enrolment moves to the SME—small and medium-sized enterprise—sector. We will bring companies employing between 250 and 50 people on board. Some of these employers will be putting a pension scheme in place for the first time. Many of their workers will be new to pension saving. We need to be realistic about automatic enrolment costs. Although some workers will have personal pensions, many will not have had access to an employer’s scheme and will see a new deduction from their pay for the first time. Affordability is very important.
Parliament has already made some arrangements to address this issue. Minimum contribution levels are being phased in to get non-savers and employers who are new to pension schemes starting slowly. The absolute minimum is 1% from both workers and employers for the first five years. Some schemes will require more, but the 1% matched is the absolute minimum. This soft landing will help to mainstream automatic enrolment.
However, we still have a balancing act when it comes to the annual thresholds. Automatic enrolment is a tailored policy. It does not force pension saving on to everyone regardless of earnings. Our overall aim in setting the figures in this instrument is to maximise the number of people saving who can afford it, while excluding those who cannot. It also needs to cap minimum employer contributions for higher-paid staff and let existing arrangements cater for this market.
Baroness Sherlock (Lab)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his explanation of this order, and I apologise for missing the first few seconds of it. Like my noble friend, I was caught out by the omission of this order from today’s lists, and I apologise to the Committee. I also thank my noble friend Lady Drake for her very detailed and extraordinarily learned analysis of the impact of this order and the ones that have preceded it. I hope very much that the Minister will be able to give it the answer it deserves, and I look forward to hearing that.
A helpful note on this subject from the House of Commons Library dated 17 December 2013 reminds us that the original idea proposed by the Pensions Commission chaired by the noble Lord, Lord Turner, of which my noble friend Lady Drake was such a distinguished member, was that the qualifying earnings band should start at the primary threshold for national insurance purposes and should finish at the NI upper earnings limit. The previous Government said in their 2006 pensions White Paper that they would adopt broadly this approach, so the lower and upper limits of the qualifying earnings band were set at £5,035 and £33,540 respectively, and provision was made for both limits to be increased in line with earnings.
The real jump came with the Government’s Pensions Act 2011, which introduced an earnings trigger for auto-enrolment set at a level higher than the lower limit of the qualifying earnings band, on which contributions are paid. As we have heard, for 2011-12 the trigger was set at £7,475 rather than the planned threshold of £5,035 in 2006-07 terms, and the effect of that was to exclude 600,000 individuals, 75% of them women. My noble friend went through some of these figures but I think it is worth rehearsing them because the Minister will have to give us an answer about the effect of these changes.
Since then, the exclusions have mounted up. In 2012-13, the trigger rose to £8,105, excluding 100,000 people, 82% of them women. In 2013-14, it rose to £9,440, excluding some 420,000 people, of whom 300,000—72%—were women. Now, as we have heard, by going up again from £9,440 to £10,000, the Government will exclude another 170,000 people, of whom 120,000—69%—are women. I would be very interested to know if the Government agree with the figure offered by my noble friend Lady Drake about the cumulative number of people who have been excluded from auto-enrolment by these changes.
The DWP paper titled Review of the Automatic Enrolment Earnings Trigger and Qualifying Earnings Band for 2014/15: Supporting Analysis—I commend the officials on its title—issued in December 2013, offers the defence that the reason that so many women are affected is that women are more likely to work part-time and to earn less than men, so they will be disproportionately represented in the group excluded from auto-enrolment. Well, yes, of course. That is not a defence, it is a reason, but that still leaves the problem. Now another 170,000 are to be excluded from the benefits of auto-enrolment into pension saving.
Of course, not only are women more likely to work part-time but there are those who work in more than one mini-job, neither of which takes them above the trigger point for being brought into this. Those women could, in fact, be earning significant sums of money on which contributions would be payable but because neither job takes them above the trigger they will not be auto-enrolled in either job. I would be interested if the Minister could comment on that.
As so much has been said already, I will ask just a small number of questions of the Minister. The DWP document I mentioned noted—and the Minister reinforced a version of this in his speech—that the Government used three principles in reviewing the automatic enrolment thresholds. The first of these is whether the right people are being brought into pension saving. Can the Minister tell the Committee how the Government reached the conclusion that excluding another 170,000 low-paid workers from the benefits of auto-enrolment met the condition that the right people are being brought into pension saving?
Secondly, with a trigger of £9,440, the target population for auto-enrolment is around 10 million individuals, of which only 37% are women; going up to £10,000, that falls slightly to 36%. When the Minister considers that figure, which came from the DWP’s excitingly named document, and the high proportion of those excluded who are women, is he satisfied that the Government’s approach to auto-enrolment is serving women workers well?
Finally, the paper argues that workers paid below the earnings trigger are likely to be able to achieve their target replacement rates through the single-tier pension if they remain low earners, and it may therefore not be beneficial to direct income from working life into workplace pension savings. If an individual earning £9,999 a year has an option to contribute to a DC scheme, should she take it?
Lord Bates
My Lords, first, both the noble Baronesses referred to the speed with which we have gone through the Order Paper. In fact, that caught all sides on the hop, and apologies are due all round. The responsibility, of course, lies in the preceding orders going too speedily. However, I am grateful to both noble Baronesses, who, in the exchanges we have had over many sittings on the Pensions Bill, have demonstrated their incredible grasp and knowledge of these complex areas, and have spoken passionately about the impact upon women in particular. I will come to these points, and respond to them as best I can.
One of the key things I said in the concluding remarks of my speech was that we recognise that setting these thresholds is a balancing act and that there is no right or wrong answer. It is therefore right that there should be a debate and that it has become an annual debate. It is an affirmative instrument and therefore any changes that are made annually have to come before your Lordships’ House for consideration. That is the right way to do it.
The other point of context we need to acknowledge, which the noble Baroness, Lady Drake, was good enough to make, is that the figures for auto-enrolment, which I accept came out of the Turner commission, which in turn came out of the Pensions Act 2008 under the previous Government, have been impressive. Significant progress has been made in encouraging the right people to save for their retirement. In pursuing that, we are absolutely on common ground.
It might be helpful if I went through some of the figures that we have for the number of people affected. Raising the 2014-15 value of the automatic enrolment trigger from £9,440 to £10,000 will exclude around 170,000 individuals, of whom around 120,000—69%—are women. Raising the 2013-14 value of the automatic enrolment trigger from £8,105 to £9,440 excluded around 420,000 individuals, of whom 300,000—72%—are women. I am going back through these numbers because it is a rough way of getting back to the calculation made by the noble Baroness, Lady Drake, which the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, asked me whether I agreed with. Raising the 2013 value of the automatic enrolment trigger from £7,475 to £8,105 excluded around 100,000 people, 82% of whom were women. Finally, raising the 2011-12 value of the automatic enrolment trigger from £5,035—in 2006-07 terms—to £7,475 excluded 600,000 individuals, 78% of whom were women. If one calculates those figures, one begins to recognise the numbers that the noble Baroness, Lady Drake, presented to us.
However, it is not so simple as to say that 70,000 women would be in automatic enrolment if their part-time earnings were brought together. I realise that there is a big education job to be done here, because many women who are underneath the threshold need to realise that if they are above £5,772 in terms of the lower earnings limit, they can opt in and therefore get the benefits that would accrue from that.
Baroness Drake
Does the Minister agree that we do not ask the rest of the population to opt in to get the benefits of pension saving and an employer contribution? Why should we ask women to opt in to get the benefit, when all the evidence is that most people will not opt in? Why do we discriminate against lower earners in that way? We do not expect a £40,000-earning male to overcome his own inertia. Why do we expect a £9,000-earning woman to overcome her own inertia?
Lord Bates
I take the point, but the threshold needs to be drawn somewhere. That is the discussion that we are having. There has to be a threshold somewhere because, below a certain level, the benefits of saving will not be as acute for the retirement pension. The question that we are debating is where that threshold should be set. We are not saying that this is a gender issue; we are saying that it is a threshold and income issue.
The noble Baroness is perhaps being a little harsh on this Government’s record on auto-enrolment, but it is worth pointing out that we have also taken a very large number of people, mostly female, out of tax altogether. The rises in the personal allowance since 2010 have taken 2.7 million people out of paying tax. The majority of those people will be female. That is a very positive thing, but I accept that more needs to be done to encourage people to save for their retirement. The benefits of the 3% employer contribution, which the noble Baroness, Lady Drake, pointed to, will come when the scheme is fully implemented in 2018 and the thresholds and contribution levels increase. At the moment it is 1%, but it is very important that people engage at that 1% level so that their savings can rise as the employer contribution increases.
Of course, in addition to the employer contribution increasing, the employee contribution will rise, and many people who do not make pension savings point to the fact that affordability is the key issue that they are wrestling with.
Lord Bates
I do not think we disagree with that. I accept that you need to enrol in—to opt in to—the scheme. We are saying that you can opt in and get tax relief from the lower earnings limit of £5,772, and that your employer will have to do that from £10,000. Therefore, we agree on that. Persistent low earners tend to find that the state pension alone provides them with a retirement income similar to that which they would have had during their working life.
Baroness Drake
The noble Lord is arguing that if someone is poor all their life they can make do on the single tier and we are not obliged to give them the opportunity to build up a little capital—is that the policy of the coalition Government?
Lord Bates
The noble Baroness knows that is not our argument. We are encouraging people to save, as far as possible, but we recognise that savings, and how people spend their disposable income, is a choice. At what point does it become an automatic responsibility of the employer to enrol an employee in the scheme? That is what we are debating, not whether people are being encouraged to save. I hope that there is genuine cross-party agreement on this, coming out of the Turner commission, of which the noble Baroness was a distinguished member.
Of course, the whole objective is to increase savings across society. Thirteen million people are not saving enough for their retirement and we want that figure to improve. We want to ensure that as many people as possible are automatically enrolled. The Government believe that the decision on lower earnings is a decision for each person to take, and I hope they will take advantage of it.
Baroness Drake
The noble Lord is defending arguments that are untrue. Auto-enrolment does not work on the basis of it being a decision for individuals. They are put in, they have to come out. They have the choice to come out, but they are put in in the first place. These women are not getting the advantages of auto-enrolment. The point of inertia is that it is not based on informed choice; it is based on the assumption that the individual does this because it is in their best interest.
Lord Bates
We accept that. However, basically we are talking about the same issue: whether people have to opt out when they are put in an auto-enrolled scheme. They have the opportunity to decide to opt out. If they are above £5,772 they have the opportunity to opt in. I take the point that the threshold has to be set somewhere. Having looked at all the evidence, this is where the Government have come down—for this year. As the scheme gathers pace, more information will be available to us and we will be able to make that information available to your Lordships and have it influence decisions.
Baroness Drake
I do not want to be too difficult. However, the Secretary of State has stated clearly that this is driven by his view that people should not be auto-enrolled into pensions until they start paying tax. That is not doing a balancing act; that has been the Government’s consistent position since 2010. The Hansard record shows that I keep asking the question, “Are you going to keep tracking the tax threshold, because if you keep doing that you will exclude more and more women?”. That is not a balancing act. If you did a balancing act, you would say, “What is the balance between that approach and the number of women excluded?”.
The Government have locked themselves in, both by the Secretary of State’s statement and by their behaviour since 2010, when they said that people who do not pay tax should not have the advantage of auto-enrolment. The benefit of releasing them from a certain level of tax is reduced by the fact that they lose the employer’s contribution, and we are now getting to a point where the gain from the increase in the tax threshold is less than the loss of the 3% of the employer’s contribution. So over their lifetime, the low-paid person is actually worse off.
Baroness Sherlock
My Lords, before the Minister answers that, I asked him whether he felt that the way in which the Government have designed the service served women well. His defence appeared to be that there has to be a line somewhere. The point I was trying to put to him is that the Government have designed this scheme in such a way that only a third of its target population are women; in other words, they have designed a scheme that will benefit two men for every woman. Does he feel that the way the Government have chosen to design the scheme benefits women?
Lord Bates
No more or less than raising the personal tax allowance thresholds is a policy that is designed to disproportionately benefit women compared to men. When the tax threshold goes up from £7,475 to £10,000, that is a massive benefit to women, particularly in lower income positions. That is money coming into their households, so they can decide what to do with it. Anyone with earnings over £5,772 will retain the right to opt in, as I have already said, with employer contributions.
The Pensions Act requires the Secretary of State to review the thresholds each tax year. That is a discussion which takes place. There is a strong argument that says there is synergy there between personal tax allowances at the £10,000 level, helping employers and employees to understand where that mark falls, but in no way does that guarantee what the policy will be going forward. It will be for the policy to be announced and the review to take place and the instruments to come forward next year.
I am trying to work my way through the many questions that the noble Baronesses have put to me. I am not sure whether I have answered all the points.
Baroness Sherlock
I will let the Minister off the first two, if only on the grounds that I am unlikely to elicit an answer that I will find helpful. But my last question was very specific: if an individual earning just less than £10,000 a year had an opportunity to contribute to a DC scheme, does the Minister think that she should take it?
Lord Bates
The view is that this will be a personal choice for the individual faced with that challenge. It is a specific point. I know that the noble Baroness feels very strongly about this.
Baroness Sherlock
I am not asking this question because I feel strongly about it; I am trying to test the Government’s argument that the reason low earners should not be auto-enrolled is that it is not worth saving small sums of money. Do the Government assume that same stricture should apply to private pensions as well as to auto-enrolment?
Lord Bates
Each individual’s situation will be different. In some cases, they will have partners who will be earning more and therefore they will take a household decision to take advantage of the same scheme. For some people, that will not be the case and therefore they will not. We are saying that we want there to be a scheme. We want it to be as simple and straightforward as possible so that as many employers and employees as possible can get full benefit from it, and so that people can get into the habit of saving. It will be up for annual review. There needs to be much more education to ensure that all people who earn below that threshold realise that they can opt in should they wish to and should their personal circumstances make that the right choice for them.
I have tried to address as many as possible of the questions that have been put forward by the noble Baronesses, for which I thank them.
Health: Neglected Tropical Diseases
Lord Bates Excerpts(10 years, 3 months ago)
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Lord Bates (Con)
My Lords, I am pleased to have the opportunity to respond to this debate, which has been fascinating, and led so movingly and passionately by the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, who comes to this area with great expertise as a trustee in the Sabin Vaccine Institute and the Global Network for Neglected Tropical Diseases. Putting this on the map annually is a way of ensuring that it keeps the heels of Her Majesty’s Government and others to the fire. It ensures that progress continues to be made.
The noble Baroness welcomed me to her world, which is a fascinating one. She outlined some of the creatures that inhabited it. I was going to make a quick aside about being no stranger to this world because it sounded rather familiar as a member of the Government Whips Office, but it would be inappropriate to do so. I am pleased to answer the question because every year neglected tropical diseases adversely affect the lives of more than a billion people, causing disability, disfigurement, stigma and an estimated half a million deaths, mainly in the poorest countries. By helping countries to tackle them we alleviate unnecessary suffering and help to reduce poverty. That point was made by many noble Lords, including the noble Lords, Lord Collins and Lord Alton, who quoted the former President of Ghana, John Kufuor, in talking about the silver bullet and the bang for the buck, which I think the noble Lord, Lord Crisp, mentioned, in terms of public health and its effect on alleviating poverty.
The noble Lord, Lord Collins, asked me to update your Lordships on progress made since the London declaration. Since that meeting the UK has launched a trachoma programme that completes the mapping of the disease. The noble Lord, Lord Crisp, referred to that in his association with Sightsavers. It is an incredible programme that will be immensely beneficial as part of the general research effort. We are delighted to be part of it. New programmes will be developed to tackle NTDs in an integrated fashion in Nigeria and South Sudan. I will come back to the point about South Sudan, which the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, referred to, later in my remarks. We have helped World Health Organisation to strengthen its NTD capacity, and approved a programme to help deal with kala azar in south Asia and east Africa, which I am sure that my noble friend Lord Sheikh will be pleased to note given the personal experiences that he brought to the debate.
We have maintained UK support for the Carter Center’s Guinea worm eradication programme, and I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Chidgey for raising that example. As someone who was clearly coming to this from a non-expert position, to be frank, it was heartening to hear that a disease that in 1986 had 3.5 million people suffering with Guinea worm in 20 countries could be reduced to 154 in four countries, through concerted effort and focus and investment in research. Within a lifetime, that is a remarkable case study. He was also absolutely right to remind us that we cannot be complacent, because of the example of TB, which he highlighted.
The noble Lord, Lord Stone, spoke about support on river blindness and bilharzia. We have extended our support for that, including the elephantiasis programme. We have invested in more research on how best to deliver the NTD programme in a cost-effective and sustainable way. The point about research, raised effectively by the noble Baroness, Lady Warwick, was important. I will come back to that if I can, because research is at the heart of this. It was heartening to have so many contributions, including those from the noble Lords, Lord Patel, Lord Alton and Lord Crisp, referring to the excellence in research. Those were the words of the noble Baroness, Lady Warwick: the UK is a hub of research excellence. The noble Lord, Lord Stone, spoke about exciting initiatives with Imperial College combining with the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine to provide further research in that area. I would be delighted to arrange a meeting with the appropriate Ministers and officials in the Department for International Development to see how we can support that work going forward.
There are also product development partnerships, including the Foundation for Innovative New Diagnostics and the Drugs for Neglected Diseases initiative—FIND and DNDi—which we are supporting. We also support operational research through a number of channels, including our existing commitments to the World Health Organisation’s tropical disease research programme and wider health-related research programme consortia.
Underpinning the results lies a collaborative network. We continue to work closely with donor colleagues, particularly the US Agency for International Development, the World Bank, the World Health Organisation and, of course, the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation, to improve the way in which we tackle these diseases. National Governments are key partners too, particularly in the delivery of mass drug administration through schools and communities. An important point was made on that by, I think, the noble Lord, Lord Crisp, about this being about not just national Governments—that because these are diseases of the rural poor we should have people down at a village level engaged in tackling them.
Several of your Lordships mentioned the need for better integration between different NTD initiatives, as well as closer working with other disease programmes and with sectors such as water and sanitation, which are all part of the same issue. The noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, mentioned that, and the noble Lords, Lord Alton and Lord Crisp, and of course the noble Lord, Lord Collins, all referred to the vital way at which we should get better at integrating how we tackle these diseases—not just with medicines, but with water, sanitation and research. These challenges would be much tougher without the major contribution that the pharmaceutical industry makes through sustained and highly effective drug donation programmes. Combining their donations and our support to improve delivery is at the heart of the public and private sector. Several noble Lords referred specifically to the work of Merck in that capacity, and the great generosity that it has shown.
The noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, asked for an update on the closure of AstraZeneca, and the noble Lord, Lord Chidgey, also referred to that. It has announced that it is closing a major factory in India that was producing NTD medicines. Her Majesty’s Government believe that the pharmaceutical industry has an important contribution to make in enhancing access for the poor to essential medicines. The AstraZeneca decision appears to be part of a wider restructuring programme. Other pharmaceutical companies remain active in this precise area, including Merck, Johnson & Johnson and GlaxoSmithKline, and they donate free drugs to certain neglected diseases. The French drug maker Sanofi is also working on a vaccine for dengue fever. That is part of the update there.
The noble Lord, Lord Crisp, asked me to consider what DfID could be doing for those living with disabilities. More than 1 billion people, 15% of the global population, live with disability. Many of the programmes tackling NTDs prevent disability, so as well as prevention DfID is also pressing for disability to be included in the post-2015 framework under the principle, outlined in the high-level panel report, of “no one left behind”. That is a very important principle that I hope offers some reassurance to the noble Lord, who rightly raises those concerns.
In 2012 we substantially increased our commitment in terms of donations. Several noble Lords referred to the amount of funding that goes into this area and the funding gap that is still there. We acknowledge that, but it is worth putting on record that if you look back to 2008 you see that the average budget going into NTDs from the UK Government for research, medicines and so on was about £1 million. As a result of the London declaration conference that went up to £10 million per annum, and now it stands on average at about £40 million per annum.
The noble Lords, Lord Patel and Lord Alton, spoke about how it was important to encourage other countries to step up to the plate and make their contributions in this area. Her Majesty’s Government are continuing to do that. It is also the place of international organisations to do that much more effectively, such as the World Health Organisation.
I turn to the millennium development goals. This of course brings us right back, as the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman commented, not to repeating the same Motion before your Lordships’ House as last year but, this year, emphasising the importance of the millennium development goals. The high-level panel, which was co-chaired by my right honourable friend the Prime Minister, included in its recommendations that NTDs should not just be listed as “other diseases” under MDG 6, as they are in the present MDGs, but actually ought to be specified and listed—at least seven of them, and perhaps 10. That was the recommendation that it made, which her Majesty’s Government absolutely support. That programme is now under review. There are some 30 groups that the UN Secretary-General has established to take forward the recommendations by the high-level panel, and they will be put before the General Assembly when it meets in September. The period of time between now and September to re-emphasise the importance of having those diseases specified is therefore very important.
This has been a very important debate in raising this issue in a timely and effective way. Again, I pay tribute to the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, for mentioning it. The words of the Secretary-General of the United Nations, Ban Ki-moon, when he said that:
“Poverty reduction and the elimination of NTDs go hand-in-hand”,
was quite precise and to the point. That is why Her Majesty’s Government are supporting that, not only with our efforts behind the millennium development goals but with the money that we are putting into research and medicines.
Pensions Bill
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Lord McKenzie of Luton (Lab)
My Lords, I support my noble friend’s amendment. Auto-enrolment has, initially, clearly been a success and the Government deserve credit for implementing the policy. But we should recognise that we are just at the beginning: although it has been up and running for 18 months, we are just approaching the point in April this year when smaller and medium-sized employers, those whose largest PAYE scheme covers between 50 and 249 employees, have to commence their duty.
There have already been a range of changes to the process, implemented by regulations, resulting from a review of early live running. Those changes mostly came into force last November, although some are due this coming April. The consultation on the draft regulations also canvassed views on other changes, including the proposition of excluding a certain category of worker from auto-enrolment. It sought more information on three situations, identified that it had a substantive response to the use of an exception, and committed to publish the results, with government proposals and a further consultation. When will the results be published? Will it be before Report? At the very least, can the Minister provide us with a list of the circumstances being considered, if those extend beyond the three identified in the briefing note, which states:
“The initial evidence suggested that there is a case to re-examine the appropriateness of the employer duty in some, very carefully specified, circumstances”?
However, as my noble friend has clearly set out in the amendment, the power taken in Clause 37 is a very wide one.
The circumstances covering someone handing in their notice, where the notice spans the automatic enrolment date, and where an active scheme member gives notice of retirement and stops making contributions could, it is suggested, be the subject of specific amendment. As for those individuals with fixed or enhanced protection for their lifetime allowances, the Minister might tell us how an exclusion might be framed so that the employer could operate without input from the worker. That those circumstances need to be addressed to avoid detriment to workers is clear, but at present the encouragement from HMRC is to do so by opting out. If the system for exemption depends on the worker lodging the existence of enhanced or fixed protection, perhaps with some validation from HMRC, I am not sure that that is a more effective route than the worker simply opting out.
If the rationale for Clause 37 is based on just those three circumstances, I am bound to say that it is not overly convincing. If we are to understand that a range of other circumstances have been identified which justify the clause, we must be entitled to know what they are. The Government must be aware of them from representations that they have already seen. The briefing note sets down some core policy principles against which suggested exclusions are to be tested. One of these is:
“Are the individuals unlikely to benefit from pension saving?”.
This has echoes of some of the challenges to auto-enrolment when the policy was first originated and being developed, particularly around older women just approaching retirement.
It is entirely reasonable that there will be changes to the operation of auto-enrolment arising from practical experience, but we should be cautious of wide powers to remove the employer duty of enrolment. That is the cornerstone of the policy. Of course, we are mindful that the duty has already in practice been narrowed by aligning the starting point with the level of the income tax personal threshold, thereby removing thousands of the low-paid from its benefits. We are also mindful that there is a subtext to the overall Bill about generating savings for the Treasury, so my noble friend is right to be cautious about this clause.
Lord Bates (Con)
My Lords, it is now two years since the rollout of automatic enrolment began and we are seeing how it works in practice. Automatic enrolment is a blunt instrument, since everybody who meets the relevant tests is automatically enrolled. There is emerging evidence that we should consider refining and targeting, but it is impractical to make refinements by amending primary legislation every single time. A degree of flexibility is an integral part of future-proofing the policy. This clause provides that flexibility, with a power to exclude prescribed types of workers from the scope of automatic enrolment.
I should respond to the points made by the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, and the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie. The inclusion of all employers, whatever their size, is part of the broad consensus that continues to underpin support for automatic enrolment. That is Her Majesty’s Government’s position. I will come back to the specific points, which have rightly been raised, at some point.
We need to take the oddities out of the system and this clause enables us to do just that. Automatic enrolment is not always appropriate. Indeed, in extreme cases, pension saving could lead to an individual incurring a financial penalty. Until now we have relied on opt-out as a solution: an individual can opt out of automatic enrolment if pension saving is not right for them. However, a problem remains: inappropriate enrolments, opt-outs and refunds still cause work for employers and frustration for the individual. We need to consider how we can remove, or at least reduce, the administrative burden in cases where automatic enrolment serves no purpose.
The Government’s consultation on technical changes to automatic enrolment last year shows significant support from employers, pension providers and financial advisers for limited, carefully crafted exclusions which help individuals where automatic enrolment has no benefit or makes no sense. We are currently looking at the evidence from that consultation with a view to publishing proposals when a power is on the statute book. So far, the evidence suggests some clear examples. One straightforward example is that people with enhanced or fixed tax protection status could face a tax surcharge if they make any further contributions into a pension. As well as this, automatic enrolment may be illogical for leavers, since it may make no sense to force an employer to enrol a worker into a company pension scheme if they are serving out their notice.
Any exclusion is likely to be sensible and uncontroversial, which is why the Government suggest that a negative resolution in these circumstances is an appropriate use of Parliament’s time. In terms of the breadth of this power, we have been clear from the outset that the intention of this clause is not to exclude entire employment sectors from automatic enrolment or to carve out a particular size of employer; that is a specific statement in relation to this.
We know that undersaving is most prevalent among low-to-moderate earners, those who work for employers who have not provided an accessible pension scheme or those who do not pay into one. These are the core policy objectives on which the consensus was built and to which we are still committed. We are not considering exclusions to the automatic enrolment duty simply because some employers tell us automatic enrolment is an inconvenience. This is about exceptional situations where it makes sense to take a person outside the scope of the Bill, hence the exemption. Although I can understand the aim of the amendment, it is trying to stop the Government from doing something that we have no intention of doing. As noble Lords will know, it would not ultimately constrain future Governments in any event.
The noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, mentioned Beecroft. We have already firmly rejected proposals to cut micro-employers out of auto-enrolment. Workers in those firms have as much right to save for their retirement as anyone else; we have been quite clear about that. Measures have been introduced, such as the timetabling for the introduction of auto-enrolment meaning that smaller businesses, with fewer than 50 workers, are not affected by the reforms during the lifetime of this Parliament. This provides an additional breathing space. That is how we are seeking to tackle this and intend to make allowance.
On the words “in some other way” in the clause, which have been the focus of remarks by noble Lords, the power is there to exclude people for whom pension savings make no sense. We want to be sure that we can deal with future situations in which exclusion is clearly justified. The drafting of this power enables us to react to unforeseen circumstances. That is critical, particularly as we are dealing with such a complex and technical area. On what happens next with the power to make exemptions, the Government’s intention is to publish draft regulations for consultation later this year.
The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, asked whether this was about saving tax, or tax relief. We are looking at the use of this power. Saving money for the Treasury will not be one of the factors we consider. Although, of course, general consideration of the management of fiscal balances is sensible, the primary purpose here is to ensure that employers of all sizes, and employees, take the opportunity to engage with pensions and save for their retirement. Ultimately, in the long-term, that is in the best interests of the Treasury, the Department for Work and Pensions—indeed for all of government—and, chiefly, the people themselves.
I understand the thrust behind the amendment and that it is important to get those remarks on the record, but with those reassurances, I ask the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, to consider withdrawing it.
Baroness Sherlock
I have a question to add to that. I am grateful for the Minister’s explanation as to why the Government feel they need to have some flexibility to deal with circumstances as yet unknown, but I do not think that the Minister addressed what the problem is with the specific amendment I moved. After all, the amendment does not seek to prevent the Government from having those powers; it simply says that the Government may not make regulations in such a way as to exclude categories of business such as small and medium-sized businesses from auto-enrolment. What is the Government’s particular problem with this amendment?
Lord Bates
I will come to the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, in the first instance. We have said that there are three categories, which he rightly referred to: tax protection, leavers and retirees. Those are the issues that we have identified. We are, of course, having a consultation. One of the challenges we invariably have is that we phrase a piece of legislation and make certain statements on the record in terms of the progress of that legislation through the House. We give certain assurances and then put something in to say, “This is to cover for unforeseen circumstances”, to which the legitimate question is: “What are those circumstances?”. The legitimate response to that has to be that they are unforeseen at present.
Responses to the consultation are currently being processed. They will be dealt with and published later this year and could reveal examples that we have not actually identified at present. This is a new policy and a new area and we therefore need to look at this. As I made my remarks about unforeseen circumstances, I gave examples of areas where it would be unacceptable to exclude people from the terms. We have rejected these exemptions and certainly would not want to introduce them. We have identified casual staff and teachers with second jobs, for instance, as being examples of people for whom we would not want this provision to apply. However, there will be further consultation on this issue and I ask noble Lords, if not quite to trust the Government, at least to accept that sufficient assurances have been put on the record. We recognise that there is broad consensus, but this needs to apply to everybody. However, this is a young policy in general terms and therefore flexibility is still required.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
I do not want to labour this for too long but it is important that it is clear. As regards the range of circumstances under consideration—in addition to the three of which we have already had notification—will we get any details, or at least the headlines of those circumstances, before we get to Report? On the three that have been identified, does the Minister accept that you could deal with those—particularly two of them—through specific legislation rather than giving a power to the Secretary of State? I come back to my point about the enhanced and fixed protection provisions for the lifetime allowance. Do the Government have it in mind to craft an exclusion for those circumstances? How does the Minister see that working?
Lord Bates
The short answer is that it is not easy. As the noble Lord will well know, given his experience as a distinguished Minister in the previous Government, it is not easy precisely to craft provision in those areas. We will seek to produce further examples by Report, following the responses received to the consultation. However, I can certainly assure the noble Lord that none of the responses has suggested that small employers should be excluded from the scheme. I know that is at the heart of the concern and, I hope, is at the heart of the reassurances which I have sought to give.
Baroness Sherlock
My Lords, I thank the Minister for that response, but confess that I am still a little uncertain about what the Government’s position is. I understood him to say that it is the Government’s policy that all categories of employer should be included and that the Government are still consulting and categories of person may emerge who they do not yet know about who they may wish to exclude in the future, and therefore they need to keep this open. So the question I am left with is: are the Government open to the possibility that somebody may make a compelling case for excluding a category of employer by size? If they are not, there is no reason for them not to accept this amendment. If they are, then, frankly, their assurances are not worth the time that they have been given today. I am disappointed that the Minister has failed to address the specific amendment. However, as we are in the Moses Room, and I do not have the option to do anything other than withdraw the amendment, I beg leave to withdraw it.
Lord Bates
“Alternative quality requirements for UK defined benefits schemes
(1) The Pensions Act 2008 is amended as follows.
(2) After section 23 insert—
“23A Alternative quality requirements for UK defined benefits schemes
(1) The Secretary of State may by regulations provide that a defined benefits scheme that has its main administration in the United Kingdom satisfies the quality requirement in relation to a jobholder if any one or more of the following is satisfied—
(a) the scheme is of a prescribed description and satisfies the quality requirement under section 20 in relation to that jobholder;(b) the cost of providing the benefits accruing for or in respect of the relevant members over a relevant period would require contributions to be made of a total amount equal to at least a prescribed percentage of the members’ total relevant earnings over that period; (c) in the case of each of at least 90% of the relevant members, the cost of providing the benefits accruing for or in respect of the member over a relevant period would require contributions to be made of a total amount equal to at least a prescribed percentage of the member’s total relevant earnings over that period.(2) For this purpose—
“contributions” means contributions to the scheme by, or on behalf or in respect of, a relevant member;
“relevant earnings” means earnings of a prescribed description;
“relevant members” means members of the scheme of a prescribed description;
“relevant period” means a period specified in or determined in accordance with the regulations.
(3) A percentage prescribed under subsection (1)(b) or (c) must be at least 8%.
(4) Regulations under subsection (1)(b) or (c) may make provision—
(a) about how to calculate whether the requirement is satisfied, including provision requiring the calculation to be made in accordance with prescribed methods or assumptions;(b) requiring benefits of a prescribed description to be disregarded in determining whether the requirement is satisfied;(c) that a scheme only satisfies the requirement if the scheme actuary certifies that it does; and for this purpose “scheme actuary” has the prescribed meaning.(5) Section 13(3) (meaning of “earnings”) applies for the purposes of this section as it applies for the purposes of that section.
(6) The Secretary of State must from time to time review any regulations in force under subsection (1).
(7) A review must be carried out—
(a) during 2017, and(b) after that, no more than three years after the completion of the previous review.”(3) In section 24 (quality requirement: UK hybrid schemes), in subsection (1)(b), for “23” substitute “23A”.
(4) In section 28 (certification that quality requirement or alternative requirement is satisfied)—
(a) after subsection (3A) insert—“(3B) This section also applies to a defined benefits scheme that has its main administration in the United Kingdom and is of a description prescribed under section 23A(1)(a).”;
(b) in subsection (4), after paragraph (d) insert—“(e) for a scheme within subsection (3B), means the quality requirement under section 23A(1)(a).”(5) In section 29 (transitional periods for money purchase and personal pension schemes), in subsections (1) and (3) omit “for money purchase and personal pension schemes”.
(6) Section 30 (transitional period for defined benefits and hybrid schemes) is amended as follows.
(7) In subsection (3), at the end of the substituted subsection (2) insert—
“A reference in this subsection to a scheme does not include a scheme to which section 30(11)(a) or (b) applies.”(8) In subsection (5), in the substituted subsection (2)—
(a) in paragraph (a), after “defined benefits scheme” insert “other than a scheme to which section 30(11)(a) applies”; (b) in paragraph (aa) (inserted by section 38 of this Act), after “a hybrid scheme” insert “other than a scheme to which section 30(11)(b) applies”; after paragraph (c) (inserted by section 38 of this Act), insert—“(d) becomes an active member, with effect from the automatic enrolment date, of an automatic enrolment scheme which is a defined benefits scheme to which section 30(11)(a) applies, or(e) becomes a defined benefits member , with effect from the automatic enrolment date, of an automatic enrolment scheme which is a hybrid scheme to which section 30(11)(b) applies.”(9) After subsection (10) (inserted by section 38 of this Act) insert—
“(11) In subsection (2) references to a scheme do not include—
(a) a defined benefits scheme that satisfies the quality requirement in relation to the jobholder by reason only of section 23A(1)(a), or(b) a hybrid scheme if—(i) the appropriate paragraph of section 24(1) for any provisions of the scheme is paragraph (b) (those provisions are referred to below as “the defined benefits section”),(ii) the defined benefits section satisfies section 23A(1)(a) as applied by section 24(1)(b), and(iii) the defined benefits section does not satisfy any of the other requirements mentioned in section 24(1)(b).””
Lord Bates
My Lords, this introduces alternative quality requirements for defined benefits schemes being used for automatic enrolment. It will simplify the task of determining whether a defined benefits scheme is good enough to provide both increased flexibility for employers and protection for members’ benefits.
By way of context, I should first explain that currently, if an employer wishes to use a defined benefits scheme for automatic enrolment, the scheme must either be contracted-out, and provide benefits broadly equivalent to the state second pension, or provide benefits broadly equivalent to, or better than, a hypothetical “test scheme”. There is a separate test for money-purchase schemes based on minimum contributions, set at 8% of qualifying earnings.
These amendments add to these arrangements in two ways. First, they make it possible for certain schemes that are defined benefit in legal terms, but actually have a defined contribution structure, to be assessed against the money-purchase scheme requirement.
The Government will define the schemes to which this could apply in regulations but an example might be one where contributions are set out in the scheme rules—as with a money-purchase scheme—but there is a guarantee over investment performance that means it does not meet the strict legal definition of a money-purchase scheme. Such a scheme might well meet the money-purchase quality requirements but it would be difficult to show how it satisfies the test scheme standard. That is because the benefits are not defined in a way that is comparable with the test scheme benefits.
These amendments also—
Lord Bates
My Lords, these amendments allow for two simpler alternative tests for a scheme to demonstrate that it is of sufficient quality. These were developed following last year’s consultation on technical changes to automatic enrolment, asking for views on whether there is a simpler way to determine whether a defined benefit scheme is good enough for automatic enrolment.
As well as calling for a general simplification in these rules, responses to the consultation highlighted that once the contracting-out period ends in April 2016, all those schemes that are currently contracted out, and so considered good enough, must satisfy the test scheme standard. This is considered unnecessarily complex and burdensome, particularly as, until the end of the contracting-out period, the schemes will have satisfied the higher standard of the reference scheme test. The alternative tests provide for a scheme to be used for automatic enrolment if the cost to the scheme of the future accrual of benefits for active members would require contributions that are at least equivalent to one of two prescribed percentages of relevant earnings. The first will apply at the aggregate level, looking at the scheme as a whole, and the second will apply at the individual level and must be satisfied for at least 90% of relevant members. Moreover, in order to provide assurances about the quality of schemes satisfying this alternative test, the amendment ensures that the prescribed amounts will not be lower than 8% of relevant earnings, in line with the minimum level for total contributions into a qualifying money-purchase scheme.
We are mindful of the need to strike the right balance between increasing simplicity and flexibility and ensuring adequate member benefits across all qualifying schemes. This balance will be one of the key issues to explore as we consult stakeholders on the detail of the alternative tests, and will also be reviewed in 2017 to ensure that the legislation is working as intended. I beg to move.
Baroness Sherlock
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his explanation of these amendments. I have two questions. He may have answered them but, although I listened hard, it is hard to be sure. First, will he confirm whether the Bill, with these amendments, will qualify the existing accrued rights protections in any way? Secondly, will he assure us that, given the variations in definitions of pensionable pay, the new defined benefit scheme qualifying tests will be of no lesser standard than the certification alternative requirements used at the moment for employers using money-purchase schemes but using an alternative definition?
Lord Bates
I certainly give the noble Baroness the assurance that she rightly seeks with her second question: there will be that minimum standard. In answer to her question as to whether the amendments will qualify in any way the existing accrued rights protections, nothing that we are doing in this clause or in the regulations that we plan to make under it will have any impact on accrued rights.
Baroness Donaghy (Lab)
I just want to say a few words about the culture within the financial services companies and how difficult it is, given that culture, to have any compliance rules that staff will obey if their jobs depend on selling products. I think it was the whistleblower Dave Penny, who worked for Lloyds TSB, who gave a long list of tricks of the trade that he had tried to warn against. We all know the fines that that company had to pay for using those tricks in both PPI and bond selling. Mr Penny said:
“A supposedly strict compliance regime is meaningless if the management style is putting immense pressure on staff to sell, sell, sell. To keep their jobs, staff will always find ways around compliance”.
That has not gone away just because of the massive fines and compensation that these companies have paid. Only a couple of months ago, a woman in her 60s received a cheque from her son for £35,000. She planned to put that into a stock market investment. That same day that the money arrived in her current account, she was called by a Lloyds employee, who told her that the money could be at risk—an extraordinary claim to make about funds left in the care of a clearing bank. The Lloyds customer said, “The woman at the other end of the line said that my money might not be safe in my current account over the weekend and recommended that I transfer it to a savings account where it would be less easy to steal. I was naturally very worried about this and the bank did not really explain why my money would not be safe in my current account. The whole thing caused me a great deal of distress and eventually my husband intervened, and called the bank to say I did not want to transfer my money to a savings account and went ahead with my original investment plans”.
Of course, there is a financial incentive to place money in an investment account in a bank, no matter how low the interest rates compared with a current account, which is the sole reason why that employee made the effort to contact that person. I realise that that is not of direct relevance to these amendments, except to say that compliance will not work unless you deal with the issue of the culture in these companies. We will see all these tricks of the trade happening again, particularly as the Government are going on the pot-follows-member formula. This will give many more opportunities for companies to salami-slice their charges as each of these small pots is transferred.
Lord Bates
My Lords, this has been a useful debate with lots of high-quality and thoughtful interventions. I will try to follow that standard by putting some remarks on the noble Lord’s amendments on the record, and also on my noble friend Lord Freud’s Amendment 70.
As your Lordships will be aware, we launched our recent consultation on charging in October 2013, following on from the Office of Fair Trading’s September 2013 market study into defined contribution workplace pensions. That study raised concerns, which the Government share, about the weakness in the buyer side of the market—a point made powerfully by the noble Baroness, Lady Donaghy, in recounting those examples—the complexity of the product and a lack of transparency, which hinders consumers’ abilities to compare schemes. My noble friend Lord Lawson, a distinguished economist, mentioned the principal agent problem, which has at its heart, in an economic context, asymmetry of information. Transparency must therefore be part of the play which somehow levels the playing field between one side and the other.
Our consultation sought views on how the total cost of scheme membership, including transaction costs, might be captured, reported and managed. My noble friend Lord German rightly said that perhaps it was not an “either/or” solution, but more of an “and” solution. That was reflected in the consultation’s remit, which presented not just one idea but alternative measures to improve the transparency and disclosure charges, as referred to by my noble friend Lord Lawson with regard to his proposed new schedule: a cap on charges on default funds of defined contribution workplace pension schemes, a point made powerfully by the noble Lord, Lord Browne; a ban on active-member discounts and commission; and an extension of the ban on consultancy charges to all schemes used for automatic enrolment. Quite a wide-ranging consultation was launched.
By November last year we had 160 written responses from the evidence received. We will be publishing our response to this consultation shortly. In fact, Steve Webb, the Minister for Pensions, will be updating the other place on his response to the issue of a cap on charges on Thursday this week. I know how the machinery of government works; that does not quite deliver what we want before us in Grand Committee as we consider the amendment. But that information will be in the public domain, and I am sure will be a source of debate for others to draw upon on Report. I will offer some reassurances in the interim.
Lord Browne of Ladyton
Before the Minister moves off that point, I am conscious that if the FT report of Friday 17 January was based on information that should not have been in the public domain, the Minister will be constrained in what he can say. Those of us who have been in that position understand that. However, does the expected update from the Pensions Minister, Steve Webb, relate to the very consultation that has been reported in the FT as being postponed—I think it says shelved for at least a year—potentially indefinitely? Is the Minister prepared to address the specific piece of evidence which suggests that officials briefed members of the industry that that was the case—last week, it is said, which presumably was the week before last?
Lord Bates
The noble Lord was a very experienced Minister and a much more senior one than I will ever be.
Lord Bates
The noble Lord will therefore know that our position is that we do not comment on speculation in the press, even when it is in the Financial Times, and that the Minister’s announcement, which will be given to the House later this week, will be delivered first to the other place, and therefore we will have to respond to it.
Lord Lawson of Blaby
I am glad to hear that Steve Webb will make a statement in another place on this range of issues. Will my noble friend go further and say that the statement will accept the problem of the principal agent position as it affects pension funds, as was outlined in the contributions made by the noble Lord, Lord Browne, and myself, in this debate, and that it will put forward a remedy?
Lord Bates
After making deferential remarks to the noble Lord, Lord Browne, I have to make even more deferential ones to the noble Lord, Lord Lawson. The direct response is that I am not privy to the content of that statement, confirmation of which has been received only recently. However, addressing the principal agent problem which he so eloquently outlined for us was at the heart of the consultation process which was launched back in October, and was at the heart of what the OFT was driving at in its review. Therefore, in responding to that consultation, I reassure my noble friend that he will find—I hope—that this offers the reassurances he seeks. If not, he is at liberty to bring this matter back on Report, should he choose not to press his amendment at this stage.
On the definition of charges and transaction costs, Schedule 17 gives the Secretary of State the power to restrict administration charges by regulation. In the consultation we proposed specifying a broad definition of charges to encompass any expense that does not result in the provision of pension benefits for a member. We also asked for views on whether transaction costs should be included within a charge cap. Any charges that are restricted—even those under a possible cap—will have to be defined in regulations. These regulations will, of course, be subject to public consultation and we have accepted the DPRRC’s recommendation that these regulations be subject to the affirmative procedure on first use. Government Amendment 70 will achieve this.
With regard to the noble Baroness’s Amendment 62H on the Henry VIII power in Schedule 17, we have noted the comments and recommendations put forward by the DPRRC. However, we believe that it is vital that the Government’s ability to regulate effectively in this area is not inadvertently undermined by future legislation that could not have been foreseen. We are back to an earlier point.
Lord Bates
My Lords, ensuring that schemes deliver good value for, and are run in the best interests of, their members is a primary concern for this Government, so we welcome this discussion, which was set out with great insight and clarity by the noble Baroness, Lady Drake. We agree that the issues highlighted by these amendments—scale, fiduciary duties and conflicts of interest—are important ones to consider. However, we do not agree that simply encouraging the creation of large, trust-based schemes is the right approach to ensuring good value for members.
We are interested in testing how far scale can help schemes to deliver better quality and lower charges for members. Last year we published a call for evidence on defined contribution quality standards, in which we sought evidence about how a scheme’s size can influence outcomes for members. As noble Lords are no doubt aware, the issue of scale is not straightforward, and most responses to our call for evidence saw benefits to members in both large and small schemes. We are currently considering the responses to the call for evidence alongside the recommendations of the Office of Fair Trading, and will respond in due course.
We would have concerns about compelling schemes to merge in the way that this amendment suggests. Determining what is in all members’ best interests would be extremely challenging for the Pensions Regulator, which simply would not have the capacity or information needed to scrutinise every small scheme and consider whether it should close or merge. There could also be European Court of Human Rights issues in relation to property rights because to force a scheme merger could lead to some members losing out.
Turning to the idea that all schemes should be trust-based, in our call for evidence we set out the importance of ensuring that schemes are governed in members’ interests; of course, we recognise the vital role that trustees play in achieving this. However, we disagree that simply imposing a trust-based structure on all schemes is the way forward. Neither the presence of trustees nor fiduciary duties are a panacea for poor governance. This is shown in the findings of the OFT, which identified governance weaknesses in trust-based schemes of different sizes. The Law Commission’s current consultation on fiduciary duties notes that legal duties are,
“insufficient to ensure good outcomes for members”.
In addition, the amendment suggests that in scheme governance, trustees’ decisions should take precedence over an employer’s decisions in any circumstances. This does not provide any opportunity to balance interests, and would apply even if the trustees’ decisions are unreasonable. Such a broad requirement could lead to significant financial difficulties for employers, which would not be in anyone’s interests.
The amendment moved by the noble Baroness, Lady Drake, highlights the importance of identifying and avoiding conflicts of interest. The Government agree that this is an important area; in our call for evidence we suggested that all schemes should have a governance body that must be able to act freely in members’ interests. The noble Baroness referred to the Australian scheme, as did the noble Lord, Lord Browne. She was very dutiful in reading it over Christmas. I suggest that she would find the Australian pension code less onerous to read if she was reading it in Australia, but she was probably shivering here with the rest of us.
The Australian regulator’s new power is interesting but it is not translatable to the UK pension system. Following the Cooper review, which has been referred to, the Australian pensions regulator—APRA—has been given new powers to drive schemes to merge.
We are interested in this approach and will monitor how it is used and how effective it is, but it should be remembered that the Australian pensions landscape is significantly different from our own. It is our understanding that the APRA does not intend to use the power to target all small schemes but to focus, for example, on cases where there is a link between underperformance and an absence of scale.
The noble Lord, Lord Browne, argued that you need to drive up scale in order to increase consolidation, which has an effect on charges and therefore brings a benefit to members. Scale is not necessarily a determinant of value: bigger schemes are not always better. Consolidation is already happening. For example, in 2012 around half the active members of private occupational defined contribution schemes were in schemes with 10,000 or more members; in 2000 this figure was one in eight. The number of active members in small and medium-sized private occupational defined contribution schemes decreased from 0.3 million to 0.1 million between 2000 and 2012—a reflection of the greater regulatory requirements and burdens that are placed upon scheme managers, as well as the challenge of finding trustees who will undertake the work.
Finally, turning to the comment made by the noble Baroness, Lady Drake, about independent governance committees and whether they would have a fiduciary duty to members, the OFT has recommended a model of independent governance committees to address a number of problems that stem from weaknesses in the buyer side of the market. As part of the consultation on fiduciary duties, the Law Commission has asked about the duties that should apply to members of independent governance committees. Its tentative view is that members should be subject to legal duties to act in the interests of members. We are working with regulators and stakeholders on requirements for independent governance committees, and will respond in due course.
This has been a helpful discussion but I hope that my responses will enable the noble Baroness, Lady Drake, to consider withdrawing her amendment.
Lord Browne of Ladyton
Perhaps I might engage with the Minister on the issue of whether or not larger pension schemes provide better returns to their members. I do not intend to delay the Committee long on this issue but I have before me a page and a half of significant research that challenges the assertion made by the Minister. I will say only this: recent NAPF research shows that a person in a larger scheme will get a 28% larger pension pot than a person in a smaller scheme. Indeed, research from Australia supports the assertion that fund size has a positive impact on the performance of not-for-profit superannuation funds there. I shall arrange for the Minister to have access to this research but I could not let that assertion remain unchallenged.
Baroness Drake
I thank my noble friend Lord Browne for his supporting contributions in this debate. I thank the Minister for his response but he has not actually answered my question—I did listen; perhaps I missed it but I do not think so—which was: can the Minister confirm that this Bill will give the Secretary of State the power to retrospectively change the terms of existing pension contracts to embrace any new quality or governance requirement? It is a pretty key point because it goes to the heart of what the Government can or cannot do unless they take those powers to themselves. A lot of people are quite interested in whether the Government are taking those powers so that when they decide what the quality and governance requirements are, they have the power to retrospectively apply them to existing pension contracts.
Lord Bates
Perhaps I can seek some clarification from the noble Baroness on the nature of her question; I apologise for not responding to it directly. The whole point of what we are introducing is that we are seeking to tackle the issue of the quality of schemes. Therefore it would stand to reason that if one is seeking to improve the quality of schemes, it would be wrong to disbar those who were in previous schemes from getting the benefits of those improved quality standards. That provision is therefore there: it will be necessary to enhance the quality of schemes. I might be missing something; I am sorry if I am.
Baroness Drake
The Minister has got the sentiment of my point. I was looking for firm clarification that the Bill gives the Secretary of State the power to put in place those quality and governance standards, once they are decided, to existing pension contracts, because they are contracts.
Lord Bates
The noble Baroness has a high degree of expertise in this area, which is respected on all sides of the Committee. I wonder if I could write to her on the specific point on which she is pressing me, with a response on the record. If she wishes to press it further, she can of course come back to the issue on Report.
Baroness Drake
I thank the noble Lord for his offer to write to me on the matter. Maybe having it in writing will be better, because the efficiency or ability of any requirements under the Bill will be heavily influenced by the extent to which they can retrospectively apply to existing pension contacts. However, if the noble Lord is going to write to me on that point, I will also deal with other matters.
We need to get a sense of perspective on this. Auto-enrolment potentially affects 20 million people in this country. The whole of the private sector workforce, when it is engaged in employment above a certain income level, is a huge community of people; it is a great statement of trust between the working population and the Government. People are saying that they accept the argument that the people must take responsibility for providing for our income in old age, but they have the right of a reciprocal entitlement to know that the Government are doing what is necessary to ensure that those who have discretion over their savings and are managing them do so in a way which is in their interests and to high standards of governance.
I am afraid that I do not buy “balance of interests” at all on this issue. If you come into the market to provide a pension product under auto-enrolment, you cannot sell or manage a product that does not meet the needs of the savers. You would not say, “Well, I will leave the brakes off a car in the interests of not making the employees redundant”. You have to sell a product that meets the interests of the members and is designed and managed with the interests of the saver at heart.
The independent governance bodies, or committees, are very weak as they are proposed. There are lots of people commentating to that effect. As proposed, they have fewer new powers—or no powers—for resources, for information, or for appointment of members to the board. It is in the gift of the companies themselves. As currently advised, they have no powers or capacity to address conflicts of interest. I know that this issue of governance is a work in progress. The Government are considering the matter and are due to report further. The OFT says that it has more work to do on its recommendations. The Law Commission is looking into this.
What cannot be dodged at all, in my view, is that any governance structure, requirements or arrangements for a private pension system that does not put the identification and resolution of conflicts of interests in the interests of the saver at its heart will be flawed. Successive Governments will keep picking up the consequences of that. There must be some—cross-party or whatever—biting on the principle that if you give the market a huge demand side that it could never have created itself under a voluntary system, that carries with it the requirement for a high standard of governance. The Government must say that those who enter the market under auto-enrolment to provide pension products must operate on the basis that any conflicts of interest are resolved in favour of the beneficiary or saver.
Baroness Sherlock
My Lords, as my noble friend Lord Whitty has explained, the purpose of this amendment is to ensure that the objectives of the Pensions Regulator, as set out in the Pensions Act 2004 and as to be amended by Clause 45 of this Bill, can be applied appropriately to charities.
We on these Benches are sympathetic to the aims of Clause 45 and recognise that there is a balance to be struck between the requirement on the Pensions Regulator to ensure that there is enough money in pension funds to meet their liabilities and the need to ensure that burdens are not placed on employers, with requirements so tough that they are effectively forced out of business and thus rendered unable to make any future contributions to said pension funds. However, as my noble friend pointed out, there are real concerns among those responsible for managing the finances of charities and other non-profit organisations over whether the clause, as drafted, is fit for purpose.
Charities have charitable objects that effectively circumscribe their purpose and activities. I declare an interest as the chair of some charities now and having been formerly chief executive of three different charities. I also remind noble Lords of the interest I declared previously as a non-executive director of the Financial Ombudsman Service.
As my noble friend has pointed out, charities do not necessarily aspire to grow as companies do. They may happen to grow, if demand is there and money is available to fund their activities. They may aspire to grow, to increase the number of people that they work with in line with their charitable objectives. However, they may not. In my time, I have presided over charities that grew but I have also taken decisions that effectively reduced charities by refocusing them on core objectives and ensuring that they were sustainable. While charities generally do grow, they also need to be sustainable, and that is what my noble friend is addressing here.
This is not a negligible issue. Registered charities employ around 850,000 people. The voluntary sector, according to the Charity Finance Group, contributes £11.6 billion to UK gross value added, compared, for example, to the contribution made by agriculture, which is just £8.3 billion. As my noble friend pointed out, there is a significant issue with charity pension funds. The Charity Finance Group estimates that the top 50 charities are carrying almost £5 billion in liabilities. I am advised that those liabilities, and the actions that have been required to flow from them, are driving a significant number of charity mergers. This is having an effect on the architecture of the sector, not just on the individual charities and their employees. Those charities are understandably nervous about any shift in direction or emphasis that is not appropriate to their circumstances.
I have personal experience of the fact that charities have often suffered at the hands of legislation or public policy that was based on the assumption that most organisations were either public or private and did not take into account the often quite different structure and funding arrangements of charities. The noble Lord has had significant involvement with charities and will understand that point.
If the Government are not minded to accept this amendment, can the Minister tell the Committee how the Government envisage “sustainable growth” being applied by the regulator to charities? What reassurance can he give to worried finance directors of charities? Can the Minister remind the Committee of what relationship, if any, there is between his department and the regulator when it comes to deciding how best to interpret their objectives as set out in statute?
Lord Bates
My Lords, this amendment relates to the proposed new objective for the Pensions Regulator. The Pensions Regulator oversees the scheme funding regime for defined benefit pension schemes. This regime requires, among other things, the regular evaluation of a scheme’s funding position and a formal recovery plan to plug any deficit identified.
In undertaking this evaluation, the Pensions Regulator is guided by a number of objectives set out in the Pensions Act. It is therefore important, in reference to the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, and the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, that when we talk about this new requirement, it is placed in the context of the six or seven different measures that the Pensions Regulator will take into account in determining the funding rate that is necessary for the scheme to make up any deficit. While some consideration of sponsoring employers is implicit in these objectives, the new objective will make it explicit that the regulator must consider them, alongside members and the Pension Protection Fund, in deciding upon the suitability of deficit recovery plans and other decisions related to scheme funding.
The new objective responds to concerns expressed by sponsoring employers which felt that they needed to be recognised in the regulator’s statutory objectives, given their importance to defined benefit schemes. The current wording of the objective refers to sustainable growth, as the Government believe that the best protection for scheme members is a strong, healthy employer standing behind its scheme now and in the future. Whether that is a charitable organisation or a commercial organisation, its health must be the first objective in order to keep a sustainable body behind the scheme. Sustainable growth can benefit both the organisation and pension scheme members via a potentially stronger employer covenant underpinning the pension promises made.
Lord Bates
“Pension Protection Fund: compensation cap to apply separately to certain benefits
(1) Paragraph 26 of Schedule 7 to the Pensions Act 2004 (Pension Protection Fund: compensation cap) is amended as follows.
(2) In sub-paragraph (1)(b), for “sub-paragraph (2)(a) or (b)” substitute “sub-paragraph (2)(a), (b) or (c)”.
(3) In sub-paragraph (2)(a)(ii), for “paragraph (b)(i) does not apply” substitute “neither of paragraphs (b) and (c) applies”.
(4) In sub-paragraph (2)(b)—
(a) before paragraph (i) insert—“(zi) benefit A is attributable to the person’s pensionable service,”;(b) in paragraph (i), after “one or more other benefits” insert “that are attributable to his pensionable service”.(5) In sub-paragraph (2), after paragraph (b) insert “, and
(c) this paragraph applies if—(i) benefit A is attributable to a pension credit from a transferor,(ii) at the same time as the person becomes entitled to relevant compensation in respect of benefit A he also becomes entitled to relevant compensation in respect of one or more other benefits that are—(iia) under the scheme or a connected occupational pension scheme, and(iib) attributable to a pension credit from the same transferor,(“benefit or benefits B”), and(iii) the aggregate of the annual values of benefit A and benefit or benefits B exceeds the compensation cap.” (6) In sub-paragraph (5), after “sub-paragraph (2)(b)” insert “or (c)”.
(7) The amendments made by this section are to be treated as always having had effect.”
Lord Bates
My Lords, the four amendments I will speak to fall into two groups of two. The first two, Amendments 64A and 72A, relate to the application of the PPF compensation cap to individuals who have entitlement to both an occupational pension and a pension credit arising from a divorce or civil partnership dissolution settlement. It has come to light during the drafting of the Bill that the way in which the PPF currently applies the compensation cap to this group, while in line with the policy intent, does not comply with legislation. When compensation is calculated, these two entitlements are kept separate. It was the intention that the compensation cap would also be applied separately and this is what the PPF is currently doing. However, the legislation, as currently worded, requires the two amounts to be added together and the total capped, leading to a significantly lower payment. These amendments simply bring the existing legislation into line with the policy intent and the actual practice of applying the cap separately. They also allow the change to be applied retrospectively to cover past calculations and for them to come into effect from Royal Assent to reduce the period in which the practice and the legislation are out of alignment.
The second set of amendments—Amendments 67A and 67B—relates to the provisions in the Bill that establish a long-service compensation cap in the PPF. Those provisions in Clause 47 already make provision for how the long-service cap will apply in the calculation of PPF compensation for individuals in the PPF when the long-service cap legislation is commenced. The amendments deal with how the long-service cap should be applied when a scheme is either undergoing assessment by the PPF or winding up when the long-service cap is introduced. When the legislation commences, a scheme could be in the PPF assessment period—that is, being considered for entry to the PPF, or the scheme could be in wind-up.
Members of schemes in the assessment period will see their payments increased to reflect the long-service cap. However, any valuation of the scheme’s liabilities as part of the assessment period will continue to be based on the current cap structure. Any scheme that winds up outside the PPF, after being in assessment or not, will allocate its assets against the current cap structure. I hope that is absolutely clear. I beg to move.
Baroness Sherlock
My Lords, I thank the Minister for that very helpful explanation of these amendments. He may have answered the question that I am about to ask in his final sentence but I did not quite catch it, and I apologise for asking him to repeat it. In relation to the cap, for schemes currently in assessment, do the current PPF rules and levels of benefits or the more generous rules apply?
Lord Bates
The answer is that the current provision applies if a scheme is wound up outside the PPF. Schemes will increase payments where appropriate to reflect a long-service cap. However, the scheme’s liabilities will continue to be measured against the old cap. This is to prevent the actuary having to recalculate the scheme valuation, leading to delays and extra costs. I hope that that is helpful to the noble Baroness and thank her for raising the point.
Lord Bates
“Public service pension schemes: transitional arrangements
(1) Section 18 of the Public Service Pensions Act 2013 (restriction of existing pension schemes) is amended as follows.
(2) After subsection (5) insert—
“(5A) Scheme regulations may also provide for exceptions to subsection (1) in the case of—
(a) persons who were members of a public body pension scheme specified in the regulations, or who were eligible to be members of such a scheme, immediately before 1 April 2012, and(b) such other persons as the regulations may specify, being persons who before that date had ceased to be members of a scheme referred to in paragraph (a) or to be eligible for membership of such a scheme.”(3) In each of subsections (6) and (8), after “(5)” insert “or (5A)”.”
Lord Bates
My Lords, this group of amendments makes a small change to the Public Service Pensions Act 2013 and a number of consequential amendments to this Bill so that members of public body pension schemes can benefit from the transitional protection provided for by the 2013 Act as it was intended, but in a way that delivers much greater administrative savings.
The Public Service Pensions Act delivers the commitments made in another place by the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, Danny Alexander, that those members of the larger public service pension schemes who are less than 10 years from their normal retirement age in April 2012 should not be impacted by the Government’s reform programme. He was clear that this transitional protection should also extend to members of the smaller public body pension schemes; for example, those administered by the UK Atomic Energy Authority, the various research councils, or the Homes and Communities Agency. The larger schemes are those that cover the major public sector workforces: the Civil Service, judiciary, local government, teachers, the NHS, firefighters, the police and the Armed Forces.
As part of the Government’s reform programme, the intention is for the smaller schemes to be consolidated into the larger schemes wherever possible to allow for savings to be made from reduced administration and management costs, without affecting the value of members’ benefits. However, the current phrasing of the Public Service Pensions Act limits those eligible for transitional protection in the larger schemes to,
“persons who were members of an existing scheme, or who were eligible to be members of such a scheme, immediately before 1 April 2012”.
This means that moving transitionally protected individuals who do not meet this criterion from smaller schemes into the larger schemes would cause them to lose their protection, and the Act currently provides for them to remain in these smaller schemes.
This amendment removes the necessity to leave the smaller schemes in place to provide for transitionally protected members who do not meet this criterion, leading to unnecessary administration and management costs. It will have no impact on the value of members’ benefits and they will continue to receive the transitional protection as set out in the Public Service Pensions Act. Amendments 71, 72 and 73 are consequential amendments to allow the Treasury to commence the provision by order. I beg to move.
Lord Bates
My Lords, we have discussed protected persons status previously in relation to the statutory override provisions, but it might be helpful in the context of this debate briefly to restate the position.
The status of “protected persons” was created when rail and other public sector industries were privatised, and new pension schemes were created to ensure that ongoing pension provision was made. Protected persons status gave members of certain schemes protection against their new employers providing pension benefits that were less favourable than those offered prior to privatisation.
However, there was never any intention by the Government for protected persons status to protect pension benefits already accrued in the event of a future employer insolvency. The amendment would oblige the Government to provide the full pension of those members of the railway pension scheme who have “protected persons” status in the event of their employer becoming insolvent. This would also apply to benefits accrued after privatisation.
There is, of course, a need to protect members of schemes where the sponsoring employer is insolvent. Since the Railways Act 1993, successive Governments have created a stronger pension-protection regime. This regime crucially includes measures that increase the security of members when their occupational scheme is underfunded and the sponsoring employer of the scheme becomes insolvent. It is that regime which is intended to provide protection to members of defined-benefit schemes. The status given to protected persons, on the other hand, was focused on ensuring that their pension benefits after privatisation were at least as favourable as those before. When it comes to protection in the case of employer insolvency, it is right that members of the railways pension scheme are treated the same as other members of occupational schemes in a similar position.
The railways pension scheme is a multi-employer sectionalised scheme. The different sections of the scheme are covered by the full provisions of the pension protection regime. The sections have to meet the funding requirements, debt requirements and compensation arrangements. They are covered by the Pension Protection Fund and pay the pension protection levy. This means that the scheme has been making specific payments to provide its members with protection in the event of any of the sponsoring employers becoming insolvent.
I am aware of the situation of the members of the Jarvis sections in the scheme. Of course, we have enormous sympathy for them and for any individual who is placed in the stressful and depressing situation not only of losing their job but of potentially seeing a limitation on their benefit entitlements. It is right that the full range of protection requirement rules should apply to the sponsoring employers of the railways pension scheme.
If this amendment were made, the Government would be responsible for covering a scheme’s liabilities if the employer became insolvent. Sponsoring employers would therefore not have to worry about the liabilities of certain members. The noble Lord, Lord Dubs, rightly referred to moral sensibilities, which of course we have, but there is also the danger of moral hazard if the Government were to stand in that way. Finally, the amendment is retrospective, which would mean that insolvencies that have already occurred would have to be unpicked and arrangements that had already been made would have to be revisited.
This seems like a fairly negative response but of course legislation has been passed in the intervening period. I pay tribute to the then Government for introducing the statutory system of protection for scheme members and the levy, which Jarvis contributed to prior to its insolvency. In that sense, Jarvis members enjoy a higher level of protection even now as a result of the Pension Protection Fund. I understand the sensitivity of the issue and I do not underestimate the distress that has been felt by those members and their families, but this is not something that the Government feel able to accept and I ask the noble Lord to consider withdrawing his amendment.
Lord Bates
My Lords, this Government recognise the importance of supporting individuals in making decisions about their retirement income choices. These choices can be bewildering and the implications of choosing an unsuitable product can be devastating, as the noble Lord has very clearly set out for us in moving this amendment. That is why the Government continue to lead on and to support a whole range of initiatives aimed at driving up standards among providers, providing guidance to trustees and education to members. As well as the ABI code of conduct, we welcome the new Pensions Regulator guidance setting out expectations for what trustees should provide for their members. In addition, the Money Advice Service is further developing its support for those approaching retirement to help them engage with how their personal situation relates to products and services which might be appropriate to their needs.
However, we need to understand whether this activity is making a significant difference in terms of value to the consumer. The Government will therefore be assessing the ABI evaluation of the code of conduct planned for later this year, and the Pensions Regulator will be assessing the impact of the new guidance this summer. We will also be looking at other indicators to assess the extent of change in the market.
Wider regulatory activity includes the Financial Conduct Authority’s thematic review of annuities and consideration of a market study. The review will assess the extent of detriment to consumers of not shopping around—the numbers presented this afternoon have been quite startling and stark—and will consider other indicators of risk, such as insurers’ retention rates and whether profits in the market are high or unreasonably high. The FCA will report later this quarter. In addition, Her Majesty’s Treasury and the Department for Work and Pensions are currently reviewing the broad range of available research and statistics on decumulation to explore the impacts and interactions between market and consumer behaviour and government policy.
Our concern about the noble Lord’s amendment is that, while rightly highlighting a key issue, it would increase the risks for consumers and place additional burdens on employers. I will deal first with the risk for consumers. By sending all members to an annuity broker, we would effectively be pushing them away from regulated advice routes, as brokers, unless they are also FCA-regulated advisers, are not required to ensure that the product is suitable for the consumer. At this point, it is worth saying that the range of options available to somebody facing retirement are bewildering but are also many: there is not just the open market option but whether they should be retiring at all or whether they should be using the flexibility that is available, whether they should be drawing down on a pension pot rather than actually purchasing a new version of it, and what type of annuity—
Baroness Hollis of Heigham (Lab)
That is very helpful from the Minister but, if he is going to do that, he is going to have to look at the artificially high base of alternative income—the £20,000 a year you have to have before you are allowed to enter into these arrangements, which was based on not being a charge to public funds but which is unreasonably high. I fully support the Minister’s argument but it follows that he must actually look at his minimum alternative income requirement.
Lord Bates
Those points about alternative income requirement are correct but there are a number of reasons, not just those, as to why annuity rates are historically low, to do with interest rate levels.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham
The Minister may not have understood my point. He was, quite sensibly, making the point—I entirely agree with it—that people should be able to consider alternatives to annuity arrangements, such as draw-down and the like. All I am saying is that to do that, and not to have to cash in, you have to have, under Treasury rules, a minimum of £20,000 in alternative regular income. That is on the grounds that you need to protect people against falling into a charge on public funds if they exhaust their private savings. That figure seems to be artificially high and the Minister will need to look at that again.
Lord Bates
Okay, I have the right answer now: £20,000 is needed for flexible draw-down but not for capped draw-down or trivial commutation of benefits. There are different elements of it. My point, from which I have probably strayed into a trap—I should have stuck to the script—was that there is a range of choices, not simply the annuity rate which people face. That is why it is vital that all members engage early. That is the reason for the wake-up programme which is now being organised, to encourage people to engage with what they should be considering later on.
Also, making brokers the first port of call for all would create a captive market for one part of the industry, without effectively adding to consumer protections. Another risk to consumers is that they could fail to engage with options other than annuities that are more appropriate to them.
The noble Lord’s amendment suggests that a brokerage service would have to provide information on alternative at-retirement services, but it has to be recognised that brokers are not impartial. They make their money if the member buys an annuity, but not if they choose to draw down or defer, or to commute. While it is right that schemes should play a central role in informing consumers of their options, we would be wary of making this part of the qualifying criteria for automatic enrolment. The duty to enrol into a qualifying scheme does, of course, fall on the employer, and so to require them to take this step would be an unwelcome, additional burden.
I make it clear that we are committed to ensuring that consumers have the information they need to make good choices and that the annuities market works effectively for consumers and so, in this respect, we welcome the debate. The noble Lord, Lord Browne, has perhaps chided my honourable friend Steve Webb for raising this matter on annuities but, in many ways, he was doing just what the noble Lord is doing: saying that this is an area which needs to be discussed and debated. In many ways, this debate enables us to do that, but so do the reviews which are taking place and to which I have alluded in my response. I trust that, as part of that, the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment.
The Lord Bishop of Chester
My Lords, briefly, I listened to the Minister with great interest. I regard the amendment as important because, in a sense, the proof of the pudding is in the eating; it is when you are taking the benefits of the saving.
The Minister’s reply, it seems to me, says that in addition to all the complexities which the noble Lord, Lord Browne, set out, there is actually a whole load of other complexities about whether you should be having an annuity at all. My question is simply as follows. Until now, when we have often had final-salary schemes around, these decisions have been largely managed. However, we are increasingly moving into a position where most people will be on money-purchase schemes, and this will become normal; we will have to engage with these issues. Given the complexities which the Minister has so helpfully set out, is the Government’s view that the obligation to work this out is on the consumer—the person taking the pension—with some information provided somewhere, or is the obligation on the pension provider to provide information which covers all these options? Where does the responsibility primarily lie to advise the person at the point of retirement? I thought it was not quite clear enough as to where that lies in what the Minister said.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham
I will ask another question associated directly with that. To what extent does the Minister expect the Money Advice Service to take on some of this responsibility, given the slightly bumpy ride it has had so far? Or do the Government—and here I declare an interest—expect an organisation like the Pensions Advisory Service to take on some of this responsibility? It has to be free, independent, impartial and professional. Those are the only two organisations of which I am aware which might fit that role at the moment.
Lord Bates
I am grateful for the interventions of the right reverend Prelate and the noble Baroness. The Money Advice Service and the Pensions Advisory Service are, of course, important. However, the argument we are having at present is about saying that individuals need to focus on this issue. It is their responsibility. It is vital to them. That is what the debates about transfers and auto-enrolment are trying to do.
However, we are wary of putting the responsibility for providing information to members solely in the hands of annuity brokers. It is better to drive up standards by ensuring that all the players in the annuity market—providers, schemes, trustees and consumers—are engaged. That is why the Government have led in support of a number of different initiatives to address this important issue and will continue to challenge the industry if there is no significant improvement.
Baroness Sherlock
My Lords, the amendment in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Browne would require the Government to lift the restrictions on the National Employment Savings Trust, or NEST, on transfers made before 30 August 2014, and to notify the European Commission that they wish to lift the ban on the transfers and the contribution cap. Following this, and within 14 days of the notification, the Government would be required to make a Statement to Parliament.
The Government’s decision to legislate now but not to lift the restrictions on NEST until 2017, and to refuse to lift the ban on transfers in and out until pot follows member commences, is cause for real concern. Crucially, it cannot be in the public interest for the Government to proceed in such a way. Incidentally, I am sure that the Minister has noted the recommendation from the Work and Pensions Select Committee that the restrictions be lifted without delay.
I agree that there was a good case for having restrictions before it was clear how the market would progress, but these restrictions are no longer justified. The auto-enrolment market is now well under way and NEST has not taken all the business, which had once been a concern among some. Indeed, the restrictions have meant that NEST has been able to get less of that low and medium-earning segment than it otherwise would have done, which will contribute to the increase in the number of small dormant pots.
While the contribution limit will be lifted from 2017 by legislation, the restriction on individual transfers in and out of NEST will be left to coincide with the beginning of pot follows member. Whether the income cap is such a problem up to 2017, the continuing ban on transfers in and out will be. The DWP’s own research found that more than 80% of employers want one provider. However, the ban means that any employer who is thinking about using NEST but currently has a pension scheme of any type will be discouraged from using NEST because they cannot transfer in the pension assets in their current scheme. The Government are encouraging employers to use NEST but, by refusing to lift the ban on transfers in and out right away, they are discouraging those employers who currently have a scheme elsewhere. In this way, NEST is being disadvantaged against many of its market competitors.
Our amendment would enable employers who currently have an existing pension scheme to take their employees with their existing savings into NEST. While there remains a ban on transfers in and out, those employers cannot use NEST, or can use it only by leaving any existing pension pots in a stranded place, with a different scheme. Has the Minister considered that aspect of the Government’s decision?
It appears that what the Government are actually doing is ensuring that the restrictions on NEST remain until every employer has staged. By the time the NEST restrictions are lifted, auto-enrolment will be complete. There are a number of significant problems with the Government’s position. First, as the pensions industry acknowledges, NEST provides best-practice standards, which has obliged the insurance companies to improve their standards. Yet NEST is disadvantaged in competing for many of the low and medium-earning savers for whom it is designed. That may well result in customer detriment for many of those workers. Secondly, the Government’s proposals fail the public interest test. If large numbers of low and medium-earning employees cannot use NEST, it is thereby being prevented from delivering its public interest obligation. Thirdly, restricting NEST impacts on its financial position and makes it harder to pay back the state aid earlier and thereby allow it to reduce its charges even further. This again undermines NEST’s public interest obligation and its mission to deliver a low-charge, high-governance pension proposition. Finally, the rest of the industry is reported in the pensions press as increasingly not having the capacity or, possibly, desire to cope with all the employers who are still to stage in. Having had, it is said, the advantage of the NEST restrictions in place while larger employers move in, the rest of the industry is perhaps less interested in the smaller end of the market.
I trust that the Minister will be able to explain why the Government have so far refused to lift the restrictions. However, whatever has been said in the past, I urge the Minister to accept this amendment; but if he cannot do so today, I hope that he will take it away and reconsider before Report the strong case for these restrictions to be lifted—not in a few years’ time but now, before auto- enrolment is complete. I beg to move.
Lord Bates
My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, for giving me the opportunity to update the Committee on all things NEST.
As noble Lords know, the National Employment Savings Trust was established to support automatic enrolment, providing access to a quality, low-cost scheme for a target market of low-to-moderate earners and smaller employers. We are now just over one year into automatic enrolment and NEST has around 800,000 members and 2,500 participating employers. Opt-out rates are low, with only 8% of individuals enrolled into NEST choosing not to save for their retirement. NEST is already very successfully doing what it is there for—supporting automatic enrolment.
However, we are approaching a peak in the staging profile. Between April and July this year, 27,000 medium-sized employers will start to enrol their workers, and from April 2015 more than 1 million small employers will do the same. We anticipate around 65% of these small and medium employers will use NEST. By the end of staging we expect NEST to have admitted around 750,000 employers and to be providing a pension saving vehicle for between 2 million and 4 million members.
This implementation challenge is what we need NEST to focus on. We need to ensure that the millions of people currently not saving sufficiently for retirement are provided with an opportunity to do so, and that NEST plays its part in starting to make pension saving the norm rather than the exception. For this reason, during the implementation of automatic enrolment, it is critical that NEST focuses on the key task of getting employers and workers on board without distraction. That is why we announced that we will be lifting the annual contribution limit and transfer restrictions currently placed on NEST by April 2017, when implementation for all existing employers is complete.
I am pleased to advise the Committee that, following an invitation from the European Commission, the Government submitted a formal notification earlier this month of their plans to lift these two constraints. The Commission will provide its response in due course. Once this has been received, the Government intend to consult on draft regulations and bring forward secondary legislation later this year to lift the constraints in 2017.
These regulations will provide certainty that beyond 2017 NEST will be on a similar footing to other providers and its members in the wider pensions market. It will enable NEST to support the successful implementation of automatic enrolment but will send a clear message to employers that these constraints will not have any bearing on them in the longer term, helping them to make an informed decision about automatic enrolment scheme choice for their members.
The Government are committed to ensuring that the introduction of automatic enrolment is a success. Effective implementation is important for building and maintaining consumer confidence in the reforms. Removing the annual contribution limit and transfer restrictions by April 2017 is the right approach.
The noble Baroness asked if the ban on transfers stopped employers from choosing NEST. NEST already has 800,000 members and 2,500 participating employers. Given that the overwhelming majority of employers that have staged so far are large employers, the evidence suggests that the constraints have not unduly deterred employers from choosing NEST.
This is an operational capacity issue for NEST. The restrictions on transfers in and out of NEST were designed to enable NEST to focus on its primary objective of supporting the introduction of automatic enrolment. Between April and July this year, an anticipated 10,000 to 15,000 medium-sized employers will start to use NEST to meet their automatic enrolment duty. It will not stop there, with more than 1 million small employers starting to enrol their workers from 2015.
I hope that those comments and updates, and the responses to the questions that the noble Baroness rightly raised, will enable the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
My Lords, I was not going to intervene in this debate but I must challenge something the Minister said. It is as though the ban on transfers and the contribution cap were originally put in place because otherwise there would be a distraction from the fundamental purpose of NEST. That was absolutely not the position. There was a lot of detailed discussion. My noble friend Lady Drake would have been involved in that.
When the legislation was introduced, the imperative was to try to get a consensus of employers, trade unions and the providers, to make them feel comfortable with auto-enrolment. That certainly means that the Government of the day conceded things to get that consensus, so that the thing could move forward. However, those restrictions were not put in place because NEST would be distracted from the very important task that it was given without them.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham
I support my noble friend, as that is precisely my recollection too. During a series of meetings with the organisations, the temporary cap came up because of the fear among pension providers that they would lose significant sums of money they had under management and the associated fees. The sole reason for doing it at the time was to get consensus to get it off the ground. Distraction was not a word that was ever uttered, and I must have been in about three years’ worth of those negotiations.
Lord Bates
These recollections will be there. I take it that it was in the mind of the Government that NEST had a huge task to focus on in actually attracting people who had never saved for their retirement before to start saving. That was a major responsibility, and issues were debated around that time relating to the effect that NEST’s creation would have on the market. Certain things were considered. It would be wrong to say that it was the only thing that was considered in terms of restrictions and the need to focus, but it was certainly one of the things which should have been focused on.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham
Does the Minister have any evidence that NEST—its chair, chief executive or board members—wanted this limit?
Lord Bates
I do not have any information to hand on that. However, we have got the point that I was perhaps overegging this by saying it was the only thing, and I need to recognise that other factors were perhaps considered when it came to putting this restriction in place. There was no sinister purpose, it was simply to say that there was a huge task to be undertaken and to ensure that NEST’s systems and operations could actually handle this. We do not want to put excessive burdens on NEST so that it fails when so many are dependent on its success.
Baroness Drake
Will the Minister also accept that volumes are critical to the success of NEST and to its charges, and that there is a fine balance between accommodating the concerns of other operators in the industry and not maintaining constraints so long that it undermines the efficiency of the NEST project as a whole?
Lord Bates
The noble Baroness makes a important point in relation to this and I would not dissent from it. NEST has a vital role to play and we want it to be a success. However, it is new, and a new system is coming online, so this ought to be done through learning from experience in a gradual and incremental way rather than as a big bang, of the sort which has had its problems in the past.
Baroness Sherlock
My Lords, I thank all my noble friends who have contributed to the debate and am grateful to the Minister for his graciousness in revising his position. It is quite possible that my noble friends are in a better position to decide what the Labour Government intended by these measures than he perhaps is, despite his knowledge and his current position, since they were involved in shaping it.
Lord Bates
Lord Bates
“(a) regulations under section 3, 17, 18(3) or (5), 19, 20, 29, 31 or 33,”
Lord Bates
My Lords, in moving Amendment 68, I will also speak to the other amendments in this group. Government Amendments 68 and 69 respond to recommendations of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee. They provide that regulations made under certain powers in the Bill would be subject to the affirmative resolution procedure. I am grateful to the Committee for its consideration of the powers in the Bill and subsequent report.
As I do not wish to detain noble Lords for too long, I thought it would be helpful to briefly outline the regulation-making powers affected by the government amendments. They would provide that the regulations made under the following clauses would be affirmative: Clause 17, which provides for regulations to prescribe the rate at which deferral increments will be calculated for the single-tier pension; Clause 18(3), which provides for regulations to modify the amount of state pension to be used when calculating the deferral increase due where a person has been resident overseas during their period of deferral; Clauses 19 and 31, which provide that regulations may be made to disqualify a prisoner from being paid a single-tier pension or bereavement support payment; Clause 20, which provides for regulations to exclude people who are not ordinarily resident in Great Britain or a specified territory from entitlement to the annual uprates of the single-tier pension; and Clause 33, which provides for regulations to prohibit the offering of incentives with the intention of inducing a member of a defined benefit pension scheme to agree to a transfer of their rights to another pension scheme or arrangement.
Turning now to the other amendments in this group, Amendment 68ZA would make regulations under Clause 17(5) affirmative. As I have already said, Amendment 68 provides for regulations under Clause 17 to be affirmative so this amendment is not necessary. Amendment 68B would make regulations under Clause 42 affirmative. Clause 42 provides for regulations to be made to enable the recovery of Pension Protection Fund levies for past periods. This is a technical area relating to ensuring compliance with EU law on state aid, following a decision by the European Commission and a subsequent ruling of the General Court in respect of the BT pension scheme. This found that partial exemption from the PPF levies due to the existence of a Crown guarantee constituted unlawful state aid. The Government understand that BT has appealed the ruling of the General Court to the European Court of Justice.
Regulations were made in 2010, following the Commission’s decision, to ensure payment of the levies going forward. Clause 42 simply provides for regulations to allow recovery of outstanding levies relating to the period from 2005-06 until 2010, when the regulations took effect. In agreement with the Commission, an escrow account was set up pending the final legal outcome and already holds the maximum amount of risk-based pension protection levy that could be due, plus applicable recovery interest. The Government are not aware of any other scheme in the same position as BT, so any regulations would have limited application.
Given the limited scope of this power and the opportunity to scrutinise the Government’s intentions during the passage of the Bill, we consider the negative procedure appropriate in this instance. Any regulations made under this power would simply ensure that the prompt payment to the PPF of the levies for past periods is possible should BT’s final legal challenge not succeed. This will ensure that the UK is in compliance with state aid law and so avoid possible fines. I therefore ask noble Lords not to press their amendments. I beg to move.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Harris of Richmond) (LD)
My Lords, if Amendment 68 is agreed to, I cannot call Amendment 68ZA by reason of pre-emption.
Lord Browne of Ladyton
My Lords, I speak to government Amendments 68 and 69, and to Amendment 68ZA, for what that is now worth, and Amendment 68ZB in the name of my noble friend Lady Sherlock and myself. As the Minister pointed out, Amendment 68ZA is now unnecessary in the light of government Amendment 68.
We welcome the government amendments in this group. As the Minister explained, they have been tabled in response to some of the recommendations made by the DPRRC. I am pleased to see that the Government have come to accept the DPRRC’s recommendation that Clause 17 powers relating to the effect of pensioners postponing or suspending state pensions should be affirmative; that was the purpose of our Amendment 68ZA.
Amendment 68ZB is purely a probing amendment, and has been remarkably successful in drawing from the Minister an extensive explanation of the regulation-making power under Clause 42, and why the Government felt that it was appropriate that it should proceed by the negative resolution procedure. I am extremely grateful to the Minister for that detailed explanation and, in the light of his full explanation, which is now on the record, I will not press that amendment.
Lord Bates
Lord Bates
25th Anniversary of the World Wide Web
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Lord Bates (Con)
On that last point from the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, we all look across at the Whips, who, above all, enjoy the human-to-human contact in the Division Lobbies as Members come in.
For this debate, I read Twitter this morning and saw some entries by the noble Baroness, Lady Lane-Fox, expressing some apprehension about addressing your Lordships’ House. I think we can agree that it was a truly inspiring and insightful speech, and masterful in how she set out the debate’s context and some of the issues that we need to address. I join the noble Lord, Lord Giddens, and many others in saying that she is an outstanding addition to your Lordships’ House. I do not know whether my noble friend Lord Kirkwood has yet secured the noble Baroness’s membership on his Information Committee, but if not I am sure that an invitation will be on its way.
I also thank the noble Baroness, Lady Lane-Fox, for her time as the Government’s digital champion and the tremendous work that she did to narrow the digital divide, and extend and set the framework for government policy on broadening access. Many people have talked about how the world wide web has transformed the way in which we do business, and how our society and the economy operate. A number of Members talked about how it is transforming this place. The idea of regular debates, whether annual or virtual and ongoing, seems appropriate. The cross-party nature of this discussion shows that the world wide web is a bigger phenomenon than any narrow political party or country can control. That is a point to which I will return.
I pay tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Soley, for creating that entity, the Lords of the Blog. This morning I noticed that my noble friend Lord Norton of Louth had posted interesting data there about the number of hard-copy letters that were received by your Lordships’ House. In 2005, the figure was 4.7 million. In 2013, that had fallen to 2.4 million. This again reflects the changing way in which we interact with those whose interests we seek to represent.
Many Members have articulated in this debate that no technological change has advanced our world as much as the world wide web. It is hard to believe that it was only 25 years ago that Sir Tim Berners-Lee wrote the first protocols that created the web. The principles of inclusion, freedom, transparency and openness that he included, and that have been referred to by many Members, are still at the heart of the Government’s view of how the world wide web should operate.
When my noble friend Lord Clement-Jones referred to the opening ceremony for the 2012 London Olympic and Paralympic Games, I recalled the scrolling message going around the stadium, “This is for everyone”. The fact that this was viewed live by an audience of around a billion and has been viewed by many more online is an important thing, and we must keeping coming back to it. Many noble Lords spoke about the potential that this vast creation has for enabling two-way traffic, not just to push but bring in the thoughts of people. The noble Lord, Lord Rees, spoke of research that is taking place online. My noble friend Lady Wheatcroft spoke of the British Museum and its online exhibits. I think that we were all moved this week to see the 1.5 million pages of World War One diaries that were placed online—an example of how, when we go online, we are invited not just to view but to participate in archiving and contributing to material, and certainly to engage with it.
The noble Lords, Lord Mitchell and Lord Stone, were among many who referred to the UK being at the forefront of connectivity and consumers engaging with online enthusiasm, and the implications of that for the high street. The noble Lord, Lord Mitchell, made the point powerfully that many people see that as a threat to the high street but actually it is something that ought to be celebrated and, for those on the high street who embrace it, it can have a dynamic effect on their businesses.
My noble friend Lord Black referred to the impact the internet is having in a very similar context on the media, creating global brands. Of course, I was particularly pleased to hear, in addition to the Daily Telegraph online, his reference to the Northern Echo being at the forefront of this activity, which was very welcome indeed.
Seventy-two per cent of business premises have subscribed to broadband and 14% of premises now have a superfast broadband service. This last figure is higher than any of the other five major EU countries, which is something we can be pleased about. Last year, AT Kearney estimated that the internet economy ecosystem was worth £82 billion a year in the UK, which is 5.7% of GDP. This is because the web enhances speed, efficiency and productivity.
The noble Baroness, Lady Lane-Fox, referred to the development of this technology as “warp speed”, which appealed enormously to me, as a Trekkie, but this does not come without its challenges. The noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, among others, referred to the importance of intellectual property rights, which I will come back to.
According to the Digital Efficiency Report of 2011, the cost of an online transaction is 20 times lower than a phone one, 30 times lower than a postal one and 50 times lower than face to face, although I accept the point made by several Members that human interaction is key, a point that the noble Earl, Lord Erroll, made so powerfully. During this Parliament, the Government will save £1.2 billion by going digital and £1.8 billion year-on-year from making government services digital by default, which I know was an aspiration of the noble Baroness.
As well as the economic issues, we have also had outlined for us the philosophical, almost theological issues, most notably by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Derby, the noble Viscount, Lord Colville, and the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, who spoke of the information overload—the scope of what we have. The picture of holding the world in the palm of your hand was very powerful. I was able to scroll up on my—I do not think I am allowed to say the brand—personal internet device and find that line from TS Eliot, when he bewails in “The Rock”:
“Where is the wisdom we have lost in knowledge?”.
Placing things in context, understanding wisdom, is something that we all have to be aware of, not least the Government.
Using the web may be second nature to many but for some there are still considerable challenges to going online, despite the optimistic anecdote that my noble friend Lord Chadlington told of his friend with whom he is now connected on LinkedIn. Many figures have been quoted today but recent BBC survey data show that some 11 million people—18% of the population—are not online. Given the progress and the importance of it, that is a very worrying figure. I will outline some of the things that Her Majesty’s Government are doing to try to address the issue.
One challenge is making the necessary improvements to the underlying infrastructure. That is well under way, with £1 billion of government investment by 2015 or very soon after. I am delighted that the noble Lord, Lord Purvis of Tweed, was able to report that superfast broadband had arrived in his part of the country.
By 2015, or very soon after, virtually all premises will have a good standard of broadband, with 90% of businesses being able to access superfast broadband. Broadband and superfast broadband, and indeed the world wide web, bring not only purely economic benefits but other benefits. We heard powerfully and insightfully from the noble Lord, Lord Crisp, on healthcare and how the future might take shape with people increasingly accessing their health services via the internet. I was intrigued and looked up the programme Beating the Blues, initially a little worried that this might be a partisan point, but I now recognise that it is a helpful programme. I am sure that we will avail ourselves of this many times in your Lordships’ House.
My noble friend Lord Holmes, as well as giving his own side a good plug, spoke very well about how having a presence on the internet is just part of normal human life. It is important that we increase the access of as many people as possible, which is why I am delighted to report that yesterday, my right honourable friend the Culture Secretary, Maria Miller, announced a £10 million fund for alternative technology providers with innovative ideas about how to help superfast broadband reach Britain’s most remote communities. That is something that will be very important.
The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, spoke of the importance of the internet, which may not yet be able to make the weather but can certainly forecast it, and how that not only has a curiosity interest but can, in very real terms, save lives and save property.
I turn to some of the specific points that were raised in relation to the governance of the web. The noble Viscount, Lord Colville, mentioned this, and asked what the position of Her Majesty’s Government was in relation to control of the internet. It is very clear that this Government favour a self-regulatory approach to the internet, engaging with all relevant stakeholders. We champion a process and model whereby Governments work with industry, civil society and technical communities on an equal footing to ensure the internet is managed effectively. This point was communicated by the Minister responsible for this, Ed Vaizey, at the international global forum on the internet in Bali last year.
Digital inclusion, of course, is wider than just access. Inclusion is about encouraging and supporting individuals, small businesses and charities that are not online, to develop their digital skills and build the confidence to go online independently. I realise that many charitable organisations are doing this. I also pay tribute, in this context, to Go On UK, which is the charity that the noble Baroness, Lady Lane-Fox, chairs. It does a tremendous amount. I know this from my home town of Gateshead, where there has been some great work going on, as there has in Liverpool with Race Online, where some really innovative initiatives are happening within the charitable sector to engage people and get them equipped with the skills necessary to go online.
The noble Lord, Lord Taylor of Warwick, raised an interesting point, which I do not dismiss, although of course it raises challenges. He talked about extending internet access to those in prison. That is something which I will certainly relay back. It seems to me that, at a minimum, where there are many good charities that are working with ex-offenders as they immediately come out, equipping people with internet and digital skills ought to be very much at the heart of that, helping to narrow the digital divide.
In that context, my noble friend Lady Wheatcroft raised the innovative idea of moving from subsidising TV licences to subsidising broadband. I can inform my noble friend that the Government continue to work with the internet service providers on low-cost tariffs. The digital deals sponsored by the Department for Communities and Local Government and the Department for Work and Pensions, and supported by the charity of the noble Lord, Lord Knight, the Tinder Foundation, are a prime example of how the Government are helping to provide low-cost broadband, but again we accept that much more needs to be done.
The noble Lord, Lord Soley, asked what steps Her Majesty’s Government are taking to mark the tremendous achievement of Sir Tim Berners-Lee in creating this innovation that we are celebrating and marking today. I am pleased to say, not in any small way due to the timeliness of this debate, that the Department for Culture, Media and Sport has been in contact with Sir Tim Berners-Lee’s office about discussing a fitting way to mark this remarkable anniversary. The Minister responsible, Ed Vaizey, has specifically asked for an opportunity to meet the noble Baroness, Lady Lane-Fox, to discuss ideas that she may have. I know that they are both following our debate today very closely.
Many noble Lords mentioned the value of the internet to education. The noble Lord, Lord Giddens, referred to MOOCs and online communities, and my noble friend Lord Black referred to the master classes that are available online. Education is obviously a key area that will benefit from this, but I suspect that, as the noble Lord, Lord Giddens, said, we should not anticipate too much of a change. There will be elements of back to the future about it where the interaction between student and tutor will be central.
The likes of Tech City, as well as the plethora of tech hubs around the country, have been essential in fostering the right environment to build momentum. We are reducing red tape to help entrepreneurs, a point which the noble Lord, Lord St John, raised, and ensure that we have many more UK success stories such as lastminute.com. We believe we have the right foundations in place to bring that about.
In order for that to happen—I am conscious of time—we are aware that the issue of intellectual property, which was raised by the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, my noble friends Lord Clement-Jones and Lord Lucas, and others, is important. There are 1.68 million people employed in the creative industries and the technology sector. In 2012, it contributed £71.4 billion to the economy, a growth of 10%, so I totally take the point about people taking things off the shelves without paying for them, as my noble friend Lord Lucas described it. The Government are fully behind industry efforts to introduce a voluntary copyright alert programme which should be quicker, more flexible and cheaper than the Digital Economy Act, which the noble Lord, Lord Soley, rightly identified as probably being out of date before it came on to the statute book, presenting some of the challenges we have.
The noble Baronesses, Lady O’Neill and Lady Kidron, spoke very movingly about the challenges, particularly for young people. I draw noble Lords’ attention to the speech made by my right honourable friend the Prime Minister last year on internet child safety. It is an issue that we are taking very seriously indeed. It is important to make children aware of the risks they face. That is why, as well as placing restrictions on internet providers, we need to make sure that children and young people are educated about the dangers so that when they go into this community they do so safely. There are some specific issues that the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, raised in this context about privacy and the archiving of e-mails by government. I will come back to the noble Lord, if I may, on that. The noble Lord, Lord Young, also spoke about issues of child internet safety. The noble Lord, Lord Birt, reminded us of that with the good phrase that the internet—the world wide web—provides us with worries and wonders. I am sure that every parent would echo that view, but the potential and the benefits vastly outweigh the disadvantages, as so many people have said. Many examples were given. The noble Lord, Lord Puttnam, mentioned a million teachers going online to share lesson plans. That is innovative and very welcome indeed.
We must get the framework right. It is right that all stakeholders—Governments, civil society, the private sector and the technical community—are involved in how best to ensure the internet operates effectively and efficiently. We believe that this current multi-stakeholder approach is the right one. It will ensure that we have the right data protection framework in place and the right intellectual property.
In conclusion, I fully support the noble Baroness’s Motion and urge the House to take note of the tremendous impact that the world wide web has had in its 25 short years. It was British ingenuity and innovation that brought it about. The web shows that Britain is great—open, innovative and creative—and we should all take inspiration from Sir Tim Berners-Lee’s invention. We should rightly be proud of this, celebrate it and build on it. There are many issues and it is traditional for Members responding from the government side to say that they will write to noble Lords and place a copy in the Library. It is probably appropriate that I e-mail noble Lords and place a copy on the web.
Pensions Bill
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Baroness Turner of Camden (Lab)
My Lords, I have not spoken on this item hitherto except briefly at Second Reading. In my opinion, it is one of the most important issues before the Committee. That is because it is quite obvious that the Government want people to save. Everything they have been telling us about pensions indicates that they want people to save. What happens if people do save, but then they transfer jobs? Nowadays, of course, people do not stay in the same job for their lifetime. They may have several or even many changes of job in the course of a career. What happens to the pension pots that they accumulate? If there is no safety in those pension pots, the whole thing will be a disaster. I support strongly what my noble friends have said. It is clear that this is something that requires a great deal of attention.
Is the regulator to have more powers to deal with this? It is obvious that you cannot have a situation in which pension pots are put at risk because there is no way of handling the market or for dealing with people who will be forced to make choices for which they do not have the necessary skills or experience. They cannot make the right kind of choices and they may end up with a bit of a disaster instead of a reasonable pension, or even a reasonable lump sum to place with another pension provider. Again, I hope that the Government will take seriously what has been said in this debate. It is a very important issue.
Lord Bates (Con)
My Lords, I can certainly assure the noble Baroness, Lady Turner, that we will take very seriously what has been said this afternoon because it comes from such authoritative sources. We have had a high-quality discussion, as is typical of this entire Committee. In fact, at one point I think that we had a Turner commission quorum. This is a very important discussion. We are agreed about the urgent need to tackle small pots and to keep people engaged as regards the value of their savings with a view to their increasing them and being able to purchase a bigger pension when they retire. The savings culture to which the noble Baroness, Lady Turner, has just referred is at the heart of this amendment and the proposals we have put forward.
First, I wish to put some general remarks on the record and, in so doing, speak to government Amendments 62A and 62B, standing in the name of my noble friend Lord Freud. I will then turn to the issues and questions raised and, I hope, give noble Lords some comfort on them.
I think it is worth starting on a note of consensus. Clearly, there is a strong sense that the issue of the proliferation of small pots is one that needs to be addressed. There is some disagreement about how we get there—an issue on which we have consulted extensively since 2011. We announced our preference for the pot-follows-member-model in 2012 and reiterated it in the Command Paper published last year. A full and proper policy-making process has been followed in coming to this conclusion. These amendments seek fundamentally to change our proposals to a type of aggregator model, where pension pots will be moved to a separate nominated transfer scheme. We consulted on the option of an aggregator and there was no clear consensus for a particular type of aggregator. We received views on single, multiple and virtual aggregator models and only 19% of respondents preferred a multiple aggregator which these amendments seek to introduce. Therefore, these provisions, while providing a broad framework, legislate specifically for the pot-follows-member model, providing a clear direction to drive development of the detailed transfer process and to enable the industry to plan for the future.
I will take some time to set out why this Government believe it is right to take this approach. The rationale behind automatic transfers has always been to ensure that individuals have better retirement outcomes and we believe that pot follows member will help to achieve this because it brings greater pension pot consolidation. The proportion of people reaching retirement with five or more dormant pots could fall from one in four without reform to nearly one in 30. We estimate that pot follows member will halve the number of dormant pots and make net administrative savings of £6.4 billion by 2050. That is a key point because the administrative costs of pensions are at the heart of what we are talking about in terms of charges, so therefore reductions in costs mean a bonus for the savers.
In contrast, by their very nature, aggregator models mean less consolidation than pot follows member. Individuals will have at least two pots in a single aggregator model and they could have many more in a multiple aggregator model. Our research shows that a single aggregator scheme would achieve only around half the net present value of a pot-follows-member system to the new employer’s scheme. Given that people are more likely to engage with pension saving as they see their pot grow, coupled with the fact that most annuity providers require a minimum of at least £5,000 or £10,000 in a pension pot to achieve the market option to which the noble Baroness, Lady Drake, referred, consolidation is a key objective to achieve greater results and economies from the purchase of annuities.
Baroness Drake
Will the Minister accept that, whereas getting every automatic enrolment qualifying scheme up to a minimum standard is an excellent aspiration, getting everyone up to a minimum standard is not the same as setting a very high set of standards for a scheme that you are using to default people’s pensions into?
Lord Bates
The Government are not averse to excellent aspirations in a whole range of policy areas but in that particular area we need to look at the issue of the quality. In many ways, this goes back to the introduction of auto-enrolment, when perhaps it should have been the case that scheme quality was dealt with at that time. That would have made an awful lot of sense.
Baroness Drake
I do not want to get into that political debate because there might be some merit in what the noble Lord said. One of the core issues is that a default pension scheme was not chosen but I do not want to drift there. However, it does not matter who should have dealt with the minimum standards for qualifying schemes and when. If the Government are going to take to themselves the power to say, on behalf of millions of people in this country, “We will automatically transfer”, then the governance standards required in the scheme receiving the pots transferred under those terms have to be pretty high, do they not?
Lord Bates
Yes, and our hope and belief is that there will be higher standards. That cannot be issued by diktat and has not been covered. We are simply giving the powers and setting out the framework as to how we will go about that, but that discussion has to be had with the pensions industry. The conversation is ongoing and we will certainly be reporting on that progress.
I turn to some of the specific points that have been raised. The noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, talked about the level of support and seemed to be fairly sceptical about whether there was any.
Lord Bates
The noble Baroness always asks an honest and genuine question, and I am trying to give an honest and genuine response, which is to say that we are not necessarily comparing like with like here. Although people understand how the pot-follows-member scheme might work—in other words, they will have just one pot, and everything will be transferred into it—they do not necessarily understand what the noble Baroness is proposing in terms of alternatives, whether they are single, multiple or virtual aggregators. Therefore, to give a clear-cut position on that is somewhat difficult.
It was drawn to my attention today that Adrian Boulding of Legal and General, one of the largest pension providers, in today’s Pensions Expert, formerly Pensions Week, says:
“the concept of your pension pot following automatically to a new employer is now not far off. The long-term benefits of people having ‘one big fat pension pot’, as the minister likes to call it”—
I think the Minister he is referring to is my right honourable friend Steven Webb—
“will be greater consumer engagement, more informed decisions, greater buying power and better pension outcomes. All well worth striving for”.
Lord Bates
He might say that but he is one of the providers and I therefore think that that is certainly well worth listening to. Another reason why we have come to this conclusion is because there is a great deal of uncertainty about what is happening out there. Auto-enrolment in pension schemes has been a huge success and the previous Government deserve credit for introducing it in the 2007 and 2008 Acts, based on the recommendations of the Turner commission. The price of the success of auto-enrolment is that it is creating a larger number of smaller pension pots as people move on. Figures have been quoted of there already being 370,000, and the noble Baroness, Lady Drake, has talked about a future figure of 600,000. That means that the need to make a decision is more urgent than ever. The noble Baroness was asking, “What does the industry think? What are people actually thinking?”. Pensions Expert, in its comment and analysis section said:
“If last year was about policy, then this year it is going to be all about making things work. Government have now clearly set the direction of travel. The success of auto-enrolment—in terms of low opt-out rates—means even more small pots are going to be created than were expected. Previous estimates that auto-enrolment would create around 370,000 new pots of less than £2,000 each year now look woefully low”.
They are very clear in what they are saying: they want direction. That does not mean to say that that direction cannot be changed by a future Government—just that they are getting clear direction. We consulted about it in 2011; in 2012 we issued a response; in 2013 we actually said what we were going to do. It seems as if finally, the industry—and, we hope, members—are getting their heads around the fact that this is the preferred option and the route that we are going down to ensure that we actually make it work.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham
They may be getting their heads around the Government’s position, but that does not mean that they agree with it.
Lord Bates
The noble Baroness says they do not agree with it, but when the ABI actually carried out a survey and asked people which one they preferred, 58% of consumers said they preferred pot follow member.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
Did the noble Lord not say a moment ago that perhaps the aggregator model was initially slightly more difficult to understand than the pot-follows-member model? It is not surprising, therefore, that initially, some of these surveys may have shown less support for that model.
Lord Bates
The noble Lord makes my point: it is more difficult to understand. What are we trying to do? We are trying to make it simpler. We are trying to get people to be able to understand it. That is one of the reasons why it appeals to people. They will only ever have one pension pot; under the other scheme they may have several; they will be able to keep track of that and follow it through. Anyway, we can discuss and debate that, but in all of the consultation that was undertaken, it was clear that there was a strong view in favour—not only from the respondents of the consultation, but also in the opinion polls that followed from the industry.
The noble Lord, Lord Turner, raised the important issue that pot follows member fails to deal with high charges. We strongly agree that driving up scheme quality is of paramount importance. This is an issue wider than just a scheme used for transfers in the aggregator model, but actually should be something that applies to all, to set minimum standards across a broader range of schemes. Therefore, in doing so, it would benefit not just those affected by these pension pot transfers, but also the existing members of those schemes.
The noble Lord, Lord Turner, said he did not accept the pot size comparisons that were being put forward. He spoke about the £2,000 limit: why was it £2,000? We actually consulted not just on £10,000: we consulted on £20,000, £10,000, £5,000, all the way down to £2,000 and even £1,000, which is similar to the amount that is currently used in the Australian model, which is often cited in this context. In all of those different levels, pot follows member came out ahead of the aggregator in terms of individual responses.
Baroness Drake
I would not presume to speak for the noble Lord, Lord Turner—I learn from him, not the other way around—but the point he was making was that one of the Government’s arguments against aggregator was that they would have to limit the pot size, which would introduce inefficiencies, because if they did not do so, it would distort the market. He was saying, I think, that he did not necessarily accept that that was a compelling argument against aggregator.
Lord Bates
It is a shame that the noble Lord, Lord Turner, is not here to respond to that himself or to clarify the point, but I take the clarification from the noble Baroness about where he was going. On the issue of how to drive down costs, the noble Lord referred to the potential and mentioned some horrendous numbers—25% or 30% of accrued pension disappearing in charges and how low it was possible to get that. There are some very interesting findings, which we are consulting on at present, about how technology would be a key ally in this. The noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, asked about this too, wondering whether we preferred a paper-based system or an electronic system. Our preference, based on the current evidence, is invariably towards electronic, because there are associated costs every time you push a bit of paper around. I was interested to read in various articles that you might be able to get the figure for the entire transaction of a transfer down to £105 for both transmitting and receiving the amount if you do it electronically. There needs to be an electronic element to this and that probably points in the direction of a database. We are still consulting on that. We are open to advice, but that is probably something on which the industry will have to offer views.
Baroness Sherlock
I thank the Minister for that response and am also very grateful to all noble Lords who have contributed to this discussion. The noble Lord joked at the beginning that the Turner commission had been quorate. I think when he reads Hansard he may find that slightly less funny than it seemed on the face of it. If I was sitting where he was sitting and two-thirds of the members of the pensions commission told me that I had got this wrong—auto-enrolment and all that flowed from it was based on their recommendations—I would be thinking very hard indeed at this point.
I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Turner, for what seemed to me a pretty damning indictment of the fact that, although we may share an objective, the way the Government are going about trying to achieve this will not tackle the very grave consequences of market failure in the pensions market for savers who are depending on the results of those investments for their retirement income. As my noble friend Lady Turner pointed out, that is one of the most significant issues facing not just the Government but, frankly, this Committee.
I am sorry. I have a great deal of respect for the Minister but I am afraid that he was unable to answer the major questions that came up today. I do not blame him for that. He did not invent the policy: it was invented in another place and he is doing a good job of defending it. But the fundamental questions are out there unanswered. The noble Lord, Lord Turner, pushed home the consequences of that market failure on high costs and charges and what that does to savers’ incomes, and the fact that, despite the Government's best intentions, pot follows member simply does not contain within it the means for addressing that.
The noble Lord also pointed out the consequence of what happens to savers’ incomes in retirement of not getting that right now. Those effects will run for a long time. I was very grateful for the intervention of the noble Lord, Lord Stoneham. Given the origins of this Bill, I thought it was a brave and helpful intervention. But the questions that he posed about how pot follows member can deal with old pots and multiple moves are still sitting on the table. It will be interesting to hear whether there is some small movement on auto enrolment pots, but we will still have the issue of significant numbers of dormant small pots.
We still do not have an answer, as my noble friend Lady Drake pointed out, to the problem of people who are leaving the labour market altogether either to become self-employed or simply to leave the labour market. What happens to those pots?
We did not really get an answer as to why, when so much of the Bill is remarkably loose, the Government suddenly get very prescriptive in this area and solely specify PFM on the face of the Bill. As my noble friend Lady Drake pointed out very powerfully, there are some major difficulties of implementation. The Minister is calling for speed and action now. He must know that the barriers to implementation described by my noble friend Lady Drake are such that he is not in a position to press that button now. If he is, he might want to respond to the questions that she posed about the IT challenges, the standardisation challenges, the huge issues of implementation and the need to build consensus across the industry to prioritise savers’ interests. If he feels that the Government have all those cracked, I encourage him to stand up and intervene and tell me now. Otherwise, there is a lot more work to be done. All this amendment is trying to do is to make sure that that work does not abandon the alternative option—which may in the end be the saving of our shared objective—when there is no need to do so at this stage.
I am also concerned about some of the points that the Minister raised in response to there being no single model. I would be very happy to work with the Government to see if we can build consensus around a single model of an aggregator. If that is what the Minister offers, let us work together to try to do that.
The Minister said that there would be more consolidation in pot follows member. Leaving aside for one moment the serious concerns about the judgment made in the impact assessment raised by my noble friend Lady Drake and the noble Lord, Lord Turner, if pot follows member does not tackle the full range of risks that have been described, then that simply does not answer the question. The Minister again gave an argument that most annuity providers would require a minimum level of pot and the point of decumulation, but again he did not take on the point made by my noble friend Lady Drake, which is that being able to buy in bulk in the market, which an aggregator could do at the point of decumulation, actually opens up whole opportunities in that area.
He made the point about good and bad schemes and that there should not be any bad schemes. I completely agree with him, but there are 200,000 pension schemes in this country. The chances of getting all those up to an optimum level before this is introduced are frankly unrealistic. Given that, the point made by my noble friend Lady Drake stands even more strongly. Even if the Government could guarantee to get all those schemes up to what they would regard as an acceptable minimum standard in the context of the criticism of market failure made by the noble Lord, Lord Turner, and even if they could do that fast, there will still be a significant difference between the best and worst returns. For reasons I will explain in a moment, that seems to be very difficult in the context of auto enrolment.
I was pleased that the Minister managed to find some backing for his scheme from a survey. Did he say that the survey was conducted by the ABI?
Baroness Sherlock
That is marvellous. So the ABI backs a scheme and the survey conducted by the ABI backs the scheme. That is excellent. I think it still leaves out some possibility that there may be other people out there who do not back the scheme. Perhaps it was the other way round. Either way, I think it is the same point made differently. None the less, I take the point and thank him for sharing that with us.
The Minister also made the point that there will be real attractions—and he quoted someone from Legal & General saying that it was clear that the direction of travel from the Government was for pot follows member. There are—but, of course, this is a Bill, not an Act. It is open to Parliament to make a decision if it does not agree with what the Government are proposing, and so far this Committee clearly does not agree with what the Government are proposing. Not one person who has spoken backed the Government’s plan; all backed the alternative. So we still have an opportunity. He also went on to say that many advantages have been mentioned of people having one big, fat pension pot. Of course, there is no reason why that big, fat pension pot could not be sitting in a well performing, well regulated, successful aggregator.
That takes us to the fact that we have two significant public policy dilemmas or issues. The challenge that we have here is made all the more significant by the fact that it comes on the back of auto-enrolment. This is not an individual employee making a choice to go to a pension fund, place their money in it and take their risks in the market. This is somebody who is not choosing, but is simply choosing a job, and by doing so will be forced by default, if they make no other choice, automatically, without their express consent, their pension pot will be moved from their previous employers to their new employers. That is in the context whereby already the state has auto-enrolled them. So step one, without any active consent, we have auto-enrolled them in a pension scheme. Step two, when they move jobs, without any active consent we default moving it with them to the new employer. Doing that in a context where the level of return that they might have expected to gain with the old employer could, potentially, be significantly higher than that which might be enjoyed with the new employer, creates the possibility that the state is creating consumer detriment on a significant scale. That is a very serious challenge, and in that context I suggest that the Government’s proposal of pot follows member has a very high bar to pass.
Finally, the other public policy point is that, if one of the consequences of this is that significant numbers of savers end up with lower retirement incomes than they might otherwise do, that is bad for them, but it is also bad for us as a country. I think that my noble friend Lady Drake quoted from the impact assessment, which suggested that the gains and losses would balance out across the piece. Even if that is true, and I do not know the impact assessment well enough to be sure—I do not have enough confidence in it yet to be confident of that—that does not help us individually. On average, the life expectancy may be X, but if mine is significantly below and yours is significantly higher, the difference matters quite a lot to me, because although on average we may both die at 84, if I die at 60 and you die at 100, that does not make me happy. So the consequences for individuals are really quite significant.
Given all that, there is also the fact that the distribution will mean that, if savers do not go into retirement with the kind of incomes that the Government expect them to have, the whole strategy for retirement on which this is predicated begins to be called into question. So this whole Bill is predicated on an assumption that future generations of savers will have higher retirement incomes because of all these actions taken. It is, therefore, absolutely incumbent on all of us to make sure that the Government get this right. All this amendment does is to put the aggregator option into the Bill. I urge the Minister to accept it and to work with us in doing that. We will definitely return to this matter at a later stage but, since this is the Moses Room, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
First World War: Personnel from the Indian Subcontinent
Lord Bates Excerpts(10 years, 5 months ago)
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Lord Bates (Con)
My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, for generously curtailing his speech to allow me more time to respond. On behalf of all who have spoken in this debate, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Sheikh, for giving us the opportunity to discuss how we commemorate the role of soldiers from the Indian subcontinent in the First World War. As the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, said, the emphasis on commemoration, not celebration, is absolutely central to everything that we will do. I pay tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Sheikh, for what he has done not only in initiating this debate but in ensuring that we are reminded of, acknowledge and recognise the contribution made by people from the Indian subcontinent to business and our culture in general.
The noble Baroness, Lady Flather, spoke of her personal story and experience at the war memorial in Maidenhead, and of people’s ignorance of the enormous contribution made by forces personnel from the Indian subcontinent. The noble Lord, Lord Shipley, spoke very powerfully about the need to ensure that that contribution is not forgotten in any way. That is one of the reasons why I reassure noble Lords that the commemorations will have education and the curriculum at their centre.
The noble Lord, Lord Morgan, who is a distinguished historian, will recognise that this is not about the Government handing down a sterile statement or version of history that people must discover. What we want to do—this is the purpose of all the Government’s action in this area—is simply to encourage people to pause, think and take note of the scale of the suffering, and the reasons for it, and to engage with it in a very personal way and draw their own conclusions about what happened.
The most powerful contributions in this debate came from noble Lords who brought their personal experiences to it, such as the noble Viscount, Lord Slim. We appreciate their comments very much. The noble Viscount, Lord Slim, said that the Indian Army was an entirely voluntary army. The fact that it raised so many volunteers to fight in a different continent should be humbling for all of us who cherish our freedom won through their efforts, energies and sacrifice. That is another reason why we want to ensure that that is not forgotten.
I want to mention a couple of things that the Government plan to do. The British High Commission in New Delhi is working with the Indians on a number of projects to mark the centenary. These include a guidebook about the Indian Army’s role in France and Flanders, the digitisation of the Indian Army’s war diaries and the production of a number of books about India’s contribution and experiences. My noble friend Lord Lexden spoke about the voices that we can hear down the generations emanating from moving letters, and how those will be central to the Imperial War Museum’s new galleries’ commemoration of the contribution which India made.
The Government plan to recognise the outstanding contribution of Victoria Cross recipients. The Indian corps won 13,000 medals for gallantry, including 12 Victoria Crosses. We will create lasting memorials to all those who served with courage and valour. The noble Lord, Lord Shipley, asked how these people might be commemorated in their own country. There are plans for paving stones to be inscribed with the names of the recipients of the VC in the cities, towns and villages from where they came, but Her Majesty’s Government cannot dictate how other countries commemorate these people but we are coming together as a Commonwealth to recognise them.
A number of noble Lords referred to the importance of the Commonwealth. Indeed, the commemoration process will begin at the end of the Commonwealth Games in Glasgow next year. The first service will be a Commonwealth service with the entire Commonwealth coming together to commemorate the First World War and recognise its effects. That service will be held in Glasgow cathedral. More countries were involved in the war than not—from the vast Indian subcontinent to the small island of Nevis. All should be remembered for the part they played, and I assure noble Lords that that is central to the commemoration plans.
The noble Lords, Lord Morgan and Lord Parekh, and the noble Baroness, Lady Flather, referred to the role of Gandhi. I know that the noble Lord, Lord Parekh, has written extensively on the life of Gandhi. It is absolutely appropriate that his life, example and story should also be part of the commemoration process. Indeed, my noble friend Lady Warsi has initiated a series of lectures with the Curzon Institute to explore the stories of the individuals involved. The noble Lord, Lord Sheikh, referred to soldiers such as Sepoy Khudadad Khan, the first soldier from the Indian subcontinent to be awarded the Victoria Cross. I would mention also Walter Tull, the first Black British officer and George Blackman of Barbados, the last survivor who served in the war from the West Indies, who passed away in 2003 at the age of 106. We will come back to these personal stories time and again as we realise that they are the most powerful way of communicating the horrors which affected the world at that time, and that they shaped a generation.
My right honourable and noble friend Lady Warsi has visited Grootebeek military cemetery and the First World War graves of soldiers from her parents’ home village in Pakistan—another personal story. The noble Lord, Lord Shipley, asked whether there would be commemorations at Neuve-Chapelle. Those preparations are being discussed and I think that my noble friend Lady Warsi will find the contributions to this debate very helpful.
I am afraid that because of the time constraints I have not been able to cover this matter in as much depth as I would like. Nevertheless, this has been a very important debate. There is no doubt that we could not have prevailed in the First World War without the support and sacrifice of our Commonwealth partners. As we came together then, so the centenary gives us an opportunity to come together now, not just people in this country but also people in the subcontinent, as noble Lords said, with the different faith traditions and nationalities which make up that subcontinent. We should come together to reaffirm our shared values, forged through experiences that will not be forgotten, and that bind us together inseparably.
Recognition of the important role that those from the Indian subcontinent played is an integral part of the Government’s plans for an inclusive commemoration —the inclusive commemoration that the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, implored us to establish. This commemoration will not airbrush the horror of the war nor shy away from the concept of victory. We approach the centenary in a spirit of reconciliation, acknowledging that the loss and suffering recognised no national boundaries and that those who were once our adversaries are now our partners in building a better world.
Social Mobility: Public Schools
Lord Bates Excerpts(10 years, 5 months ago)
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Lord Lea of Crondall
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the degree to which those educated at public school disproportionately occupy senior positions in both public and private sectors in the United Kingdom; and whether they have plans to reduce any imbalance.
Lord Bates (Con)
My Lords, improving social mobility is the principal goal of this Government’s social policy. The Social Mobility and Child Poverty Commission was established to monitor the progress of government employers, the professions and universities in improving social mobility. Current evidence shows that, while improvements are being made in some areas, there is still much work to be done.
Lord Lea of Crondall (Lab)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply, which I think means no. I have two supplementary questions. First, would he not agree with the recent and widely reported observation by Sir John Major to the South Norfolk Conservative Association on 8 November:
“In every sphere of British influence the upper echelons of power in 2013 are held overwhelmingly by the privately educated or the affluent middle class. To me from my background I find that truly shocking”?
Secondly, would he accept that to give tax relief to public schools as charities is also truly shocking? Charities are supposed to be about assistance from the rich to the poor, not from the poor to the rich.
Lord Bates
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his question. He quotes Sir John Major; let me offer him a quote from Alan Milburn in November. In responding to criticism about why the previous Government had not done more to advance social mobility under their 13 years in office, he said that it is,
“wrong … to argue this is the consequence of the actions of any one government. Deep-rooted … and flatlining mobility have been decades in the making”.
That is why this Government have introduced the pupil premium, which is targeted at disadvantaged pupils; free childcare; and an increasing number of apprenticeships. As for the noble Lord’s point about charity status, that is for the Charity Commission. Of course, it has to demonstrate that there is a public benefit to that status, and I know that many independent schools take that very seriously and forge many partnerships with schools in the state sector as well.
Baroness Trumpington (Con)
My Lords, I ask the Minister whether he agrees that this particular Question is a damned silly one.
Lord Bates
My Lords, the brief says that there are no damn silly questions in your Lordships’ House.
Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)
My Lords, the Minister and, indeed, the House and the whole country know that public schools are not charities. Their existence and treatment as charities brings charity law into disrepute. Why do we not end that arrangement, and if we need to subsidise private education—many might well want that; I do not know—transfer responsibility for subsidy from charity law to the Finance Act? Then we can have a full debate in Parliament, in the House of Commons when it is dealing with Finance Act issues, on what that level of subsidy should be.
Lord Bates
The noble Lord raises an interesting point which begs the question of why, if that was the key issue to be addressed, his Government did not tackle that over their 13 years. The point is that this is intergenerational; it stretches over a long time and the solutions will take a long time coming. The problems have been a long time coming, too, and this Government are focusing particularly on the work of people such as Graham Allen on early intervention in specialising and targeting the help at the poorer families to redress that balance.
Baroness Hussein-Ece
Does the Minister agree that until we tackle growing inequalities, we cannot hope to tackle social inequality? When you have a situation in which more than 60% of young black men in this country are unemployed, how on earth are we going to achieve social mobility?
Lord Bates
My noble friend raises a very important point, which is that the route back into social mobility comes through the place of work. That is why we are opening up 1.5 million apprenticeships and why bearing down on unemployment—it is a fact that we are now in the 17th month of falling unemployment among the young—is so critical to raising the prospects of the young people, as we so want to do.
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town
My Lords, I apologise to the noble Baroness, Lady Hussein-Ece.
Even where two similarly qualified graduates attended the same university, what happens afterwards is that the privately schooled graduate is 8% more likely to get a top job than someone from the state schools—even at that stage. What are the Government doing with their own recruitment policies to make sure that that sort of unfairness does not appear within the Civil Service?
Lord Bates
That is a very good question and I know that many people in government—principally the Deputy Prime Minister—are focusing on how to make that more accessible through the internship programme, through ensuring broader and fairer access and through the business compact programme, where more employers are encouraged to sign up and have fairer and more inclusive recruitment policies. It has to be said that it is not just the Government having this problem. It runs right across society and is in the media, in corporations, in medicine and in the judiciary, all of which need to act to make sure that their access policies are as fair as possible to all.
Lord Elton (Con)
My Lords, if, as has been conclusively demonstrated, the private education system is better than the public one and provides a portal into all sorts of social and economic advantages, surely we should be trying to get more and more private education, and more and more people drawn into it from those classes which are at present excluded. The way to do that is not to cut off the funding but to increase it.
Lord Bates
My noble friend has great knowledge and insight in this area—and so do I. In my experience the greatest difference between our leading independent schools and the inner-city comprehensives, one of which I attended, is the level of expectations not only among the teachers or parents but, chiefly, among the pupils themselves as to what they can actually achieve. That is what we need to improve.
Lord Davies of Coity (Lab)
My Lords, in 1999 the previous Government made sure that more than 700 hereditary Lords could no longer sit in this House. Now then, can the Minister tell me how many Peers on the Conservative Benches came from Eton?
Lord Bates
In this debate, which is about raising the opportunities of the poorest in our society, it does not help to have a vindictive or negative view of people who have had the privilege of great education in this country. We want to ensure that that quality of education and that level of ambition and expectation are spread to all, irrespective of school attended.
Violence Against Women
Lord Bates Excerpts(10 years, 5 months ago)
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Lord Bates (Con)
My Lords, I join all noble Lords in paying tribute to the noble Baroness, Lady Gould, for securing this debate and for the way in which she introduced it. I will preface my remarks by making two points. The first is to pay tribute to her and other Members who have spoken today, particularly the noble Baroness, Lady Kinnock, and my noble friend Lady Hodgson, for the tremendous work that they have done in this field to bring light to a subject that has often been swept under the carpet. The declaration, now on the international agenda, that violence against women and girls is no longer acceptable is surely something that we want to hear.
Secondly, contributions to the debate have been helpful in crystallising matters. We heard the noble Baroness, Lady Coussins, refer to Colombia and Latin America and the noble Lord, Lord Hussain, talk about India and Kashmir. We heard my noble friend Lady Hodgson and the noble Baroness, Lady Kinnock, talk about Africa and the Middle East. The noble Lord, Lord Collins, spoke about Bosnia. This reminds us that this is not something that is restricted to a particular place or geography. It is endemic in warfare and needs to be tackled with the utmost severity. In response, finally, to the noble Baroness, Lady Kinnock, who understands well the briefings that one might receive ahead of debates like this, I can say that there will be no complacency. Of course we will seek to inform Members about what the Government are doing, but in no way are we saying that it is enough: it is simply the start of taking action in this important area.
The Government have put women and girls at the heart of their international development work. Our vision is set out in our strategy on delaying first pregnancy, support for safe childbirth and preventing violence against women and girls. We recognise that such violence is widespread, highly prevalent and has devastating consequences. It has been hidden and accepted for far too long. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for International Development has made it clear that tackling violence against women and girls is a central part of the UK’s development policy. My honourable friend Lynne Featherstone continues her active efforts to be a champion for combating violence against women. My right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary, as a number of noble Lords and noble Baronesses have mentioned, has made prevention of sexual violence in conflict-affected countries a priority.
Violence affects about one-third of women and girls in the course of their lifetime. Preventing violence against women is a development goal in its own right and is a key to achieving other development outcomes, including educational attainment, maternal health and economic activity. The impact of violence and rape does so much to erode and destroy those in the human lives concerned. Evidence shows that in emergency situations, including times of conflict, the risk of violence to women and girls is exacerbated. Existing social structures and networks that can protect women are often weakened or destroyed. Inadequate facilities and limited resources reduce women’s options and increase the risk of economic and sexual exploitation. The violence perpetrated is not always sexual violence—evidence shows that in times of conflict, the incidence of domestic violence also increases. The use of sexual violence against women and girls in wartime is well documented. It is used for many reasons: to inflict injury, to degrade, to intimidate and to force a population to flee. Estimates of the scale of violence against women and girls during conflicts in the 1990s demonstrate large-scale targeted abuses, which have been placed on record here this afternoon.
The consequences of violence against women and girls in conflict situations are stark. Sexual violence causes physical and psychological damage to thousands of women and girls, and in the worst cases results in the loss of life. Some survivors will be faced with an unwanted pregnancy, and the choices they face are often limited and harsh. They risk death from an unsafe abortion or face social exclusion and destitution. Every year, 47,000 women and girls die as a result of unsafe abortions and millions more are permanently injured. Improving access to safe abortion is challenging, and I am proud that the UK is one of only a handful of donors willing to take on the challenge. Given the scale of the problem, it is important that the international community works to ensure that the needs of women and girls are prioritised and that action is taken to protect and support women and girls affected by violence in conflict zones.
I am pleased to reassure noble Lords that the Government have been leading the international community in addressing the challenges of violence against women and girls in conflict situations. Just last month, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for International Development hosted Keep Her Safe, a high-level event attended by senior representatives from the Government, the UN, NGOs and civil society. The point has been made from across the humanitarian system, and that will continue in future meetings. They agreed a fundamental new approach to protecting girls and women in emergency situations. They recognised the need for comprehensive services for sexual reproductive health, psychological health and mental health for women and girls affected by crisis. The event secured £40 million in pledges from the international community to support this work in emergencies. We will track the progress of these commitments, working very closely with the US, which takes the lead on this initiative in 2014.
In another major step, the Foreign Secretary launched the preventing sexual violence initiative in May 2012. It aims to address the culture of impunity by increasing the number of perpetrators brought to justice both internationally and nationally, strengthening international efforts and co-operation, and supporting states to build their national capacity to deliver justice and services. In April this year, G8 Foreign Ministers adopted a historic declaration on preventing sexual violence which committed countries to use all measures—political, practical and legal—to ensure that there are no safe havens for the perpetrators of sexual violence in conflict. Last week, the Foreign Secretary announced that he would co-chair an international summit in the UK which would aim to take further the commitments already made.
In the remaining time, I will address as many of the questions raised as possible. The noble Baroness, Lady Gould, asked what actions were being taken following the UNGA ministerial meeting in 2013, when the Foreign Secretary launched the Declaration of Commitment to End Sexual Violence in Conflict. I will refer to some specific elements. The first is eroding impunity, to which the noble Baroness, Lady Coussins, referred. The 137 endorsing countries have agreed that no peace agreements should give amnesty to people who have ordered or carried out rape. The second is protecting civilians. Every UN peacekeeping mission should now automatically include provisions for the protection of civilians from sexual violence in conflict. The third is eradicating safe havens for the perpetrators of sexual violence in armed conflict. Suspects wanted for war-zone rape can now be arrested in any of the countries that have signed up—a number that is growing. We need to see an increase in the number of prosecutions, something referred to by my noble friend Lady Hodgson and the noble Baroness, Lady Kinnock. Only that will really underscore the determination of the international community to stamp out this wicked and heinous crime.
A new international protocol will be launched next year which will improve global standards for documenting and investigating conflict-zone sexual violence and improve accountability. There will be new global efforts to ensure support and justice for survivors of rape. A number of speakers referred to the shame and stigma felt by people who have been victims and the need to ensure that that is squarely put on the shoulders of the perpetrators.
The noble Baroness, Lady Gould, was concerned about some attitudes towards abortion among the donor community. DfID welcomed recent UN Security Council Resolution 2122, which said that women ought to have,
“access to the full range of sexual and reproductive health services, including regarding pregnancies resulting from rape, without discrimination”.
That is a very clear statement and something that this Government support and acknowledge. We will uphold that and encourage other donors to equally respect and uphold it.
The noble Lord, Lord Hussain, referred to events in India. Priorities for DfID’s work in India include tackling violence and investing in girls’ education. As for his specific point about whether we would raise this directly with the Government of India, I shall take that back and report to my right honourable friend the Secretary of State and see what action we might take to ensure that the horrific cases that he brought to our attention are acted upon.
The noble Baroness, Lady Kinnock, asked for examples of perpetrators being brought to justice. As I have mentioned, that was a key element of the G8 and UN General Assembly declarations on the subject. One additional element is that we will not hesitate to arrest and transfer fugitives required to appear before these courts who come to the UK. That is an important addition that should go without saying. It is something that all agencies and departments are signed up to.
I am running out of time so will just refer to some closing remarks in my brief. I will write to those noble Lords and noble Baronesses whose questions I have not addressed and give them the best possible answers that I can to the points that they have raised. I conclude by saying that this is something that the Government take with the utmost seriousness. We believe that progress is being made on it in the international community. We acknowledge that it has been referred to as “history’s greatest silence”. Along with the actions that are taking place, this debate today is giving a voice to the victims. We can all be proud of that, but there is a lot more to do.
Categories of Gaming Machine (Amendment) Regulations 2014
Lord Bates Excerpts(10 years, 6 months ago)
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Lord Bates
That the draft regulations laid before the House on 15 October be approved.
Relevant document: 10th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, considered in Grand Committee on 12 November.