Children: Sport

Lord Bates Excerpts

Tuesday 12th November 2013 Grand Committee

[Lord Bates (Con)]

My Lords, this has been a very well informed debate and I will do my very best to convince the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, about the Government’s policy on sport. It has been a very high quality debate and I was thinking, as we were going through it, that there is probably sufficient talent within this very Room to start a House of Lords ladies cricket team, which would be quite a strong team at that.

There was immense expertise and knowledge, which was particularly evident in the way that the noble Baroness, Lady Massey, introduced the debate. There was great passion and concern for the subject of sport in school, to which I think people on all sides of this Committee are totally signed up. What we are arguing about is purely the best way of achieving the ends that we are all agreed on, and those ends are focused on ensuring that people engage in sport beyond their school age. That is the objective which we are aiming for. We know that the earlier people start, the more likely they are to do that.

The movement towards competitive sport is not a thought or a passion based on ideology: it is simply that our sporting clubs in the United Kingdom are primarily competitive sporting clubs, as the noble Lord, Lord Addington, said, and, therefore, if we want people to take part in sport in later life, then probably it will be through competitive sport.

There are two elements to this: the first is to go younger and younger to reach people and inspire them to take part in sporting activity from a young age; and then, secondly, to introduce them to competitive sport, which will enable them to link up with sporting clubs and continue that activity into later life.

With those remarks, I shall try to respond to as many as possible of the points made during the debate. I applaud the discipline shown by all Members of the Committee in constraining their remarks.

I turn, first, to the noble Baroness, Lady Massey of Darwen, who introduced the debate and referred to school sports partnerships. The Government recognise that these were introduced with the objective of increasing participation and that in a number of areas there were some successful partnerships. However, the wider view was taken that they were too bureaucratic, too top down and too expensive and were not delivering the results we all sought. Therefore we decided to distribute that additional funding at school level—and to focus it particularly on primary schools through the primary school premium—so that each school will receive £8,000.

It was often felt that some school sports partnerships were too large. Some of them worked but, where you were talking about eight secondary schools and 40 primary schools linking up with an FE college, sometimes it was difficult to get a sense of where things were tailored to a particular school. The argument we put forward is that focusing on individual schools—not only by writing a cheque but by ensuring that the money is ring-fenced specifically for sport and by ensuring that Ofsted has a responsibility from September 2013 to assess how schools are doing in spending that money—is an important part.

The noble Baroness, Lady Massey, referred to the need for a strategy. I understand her argument and where she is coming from but, as so many different organisations are involved in this, the fear is that people are getting lost in the gaps. I commend to her the Sport England youth and community sports strategy which seeks to bring together the sporting clubs and schools. This is not only backed by a strategy but by £1 billion, which can make a real difference.

I took the point of my noble friend Lord Moynihan—who of course has immense expertise and knowledge in this area, particularly in protecting the legacy of the Olympics—when he rightly said that no school is an island. However, the school sports partnerships were not abolished and it is still possible for individual schools to come together if that is how they choose to spend their money.

My noble friend mentioned the Get Set and Plan Your Legacy schemes. Get Set was a great way of involving more than 22,000 schools in the Olympics and Plan Your Legacy is a key part of ensuring that the progress that was made and the inspirational performances that we saw in both the Olympics and Paralympics are not lost.

The noble Lord, Lord Addington, spoke about competitive sports, and this is, like rugby, something about which he knows a great deal. We both participated in the winning team—a rare winning team—in the House of Lords versus House of Commons tug-of-war match on the only time the House of Lords has actually won. He reminded us about competitive sports. So this is not an ideological obsession, it is simply trying to link together the satellite clubs—the sporting clubs—with what is going on in schools.

Sainsbury’s School Games have transformed competitive sport in schools. More than 60% of schools are taking part in the School Games, offering every pupil, regardless of ability or disability, more chances to compete in sport, not only intra-school but also between schools and at county festivals. More than 100,000 young people took part, 10,000 of whom were children with disabilities. The national finals were held in Sheffield, and next year they will be in Manchester. That is an example of what we are doing in this area.

The noble Baroness, Lady Billingham, spoke with immense passion and knowledge. I know that as a distinguished spokesperson on this issue, and with her involvement in various tennis organisations, she is frustrated about school sports partnerships. I want to reassure her, however, that this is not lost; it is part of a wider strategy. The money is still going into schools. It is going in at a younger age and it is being monitored. There are moves to bring in more sports clubs to link with schools. Another concern she has is over the quality of physical education teaching, particularly in primary schools. Secondary schools have that, and that is why we are now funding extra places for teachers to train in physical education particularly for primary schools.

The noble Lord, Lord Krebs, spoke about the health benefits of sport. I think we are all broadly agreed on that. I noticed a survey by the Young Foundation which identified the health risks to the nation. It found that while 20% of people were vulnerable to smoking, 61% to 70% were vulnerable to inactivity, so it is a very substantial concern.

I know that there was some disagreement between the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, and my noble friend Lady Hanham over the figures. There was a slight decrease in overall activity from the 2008-09 baseline, from 91% to 88%, but there was a significant increase in some sports, notably cricket, dodgeball and rounders. We are committed to doing more to promote this through the School Games.

The noble Baroness, Lady Heyhoe Flint, reminisced interestingly about her cricket career against the noble Baroness, Lady Massey, and talked very positively about what is being done in schools. The Government believe in the value of sport, and £500,000 has been put in place to continue the legacy of the Olympic Games. Furthermore, physical education remains an essential part of the national curriculum.

The noble Baroness talked about particular schemes, and I was particularly struck by many of the contributions, including that of my noble friend Lady Hanham, who referred to the role of parents and volunteers in delivering much of our sport around the country. It is important that they continue to do so.

My noble friend Lady Hanham referred to the competition between competitive sport and computer games. Let me pay tribute to her. During her time as Minister she did something substantial, which was to block the pathway to the selling off of playing fields. I do not wish to make any party-political points on this but under the previous Government playing fields were sold off at a rate of 28 per year, and the rate has fallen to 16 per year. Now, because an application goes directly to the Secretary of State for Education, the only way that you can sell a playing field is if you can show that all the proceeds of that sale are going to go into new sporting facilities with other schools. That has been done, and it is welcome.

I shall comment briefly on what the noble Baroness, Lady Uddin, said. I was fascinated by her example of the London Tigers and I certainly want to learn more about them. She talked about the importance of encouraging girls into sport. There has been a growth in the number of girls-only sporting clubs. One hundred of these clubs have started up and an extra £1.7 million is going into them to promote more opportunities for females. The noble Baroness is absolutely right to say that we need to address that issue in particular and I am grateful to her for raising it.

My noble friend Lord Selborne referred to behaviour change. This is a critical area where we need to look more at how we change behaviour without legislating for it. We have enough legislation and regulation on the books already. As he said, it is critical that we inspire parents. Again, that speaks to the importance of getting sport into primary schools to do that.

I particularly enjoyed the contribution of the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne. It was brief, succinct and to the point and reminded us that, in an age of pessimism, we have to focus on the positives. Certainly the optimistic nature of sport teaches us always to think about the future with optimism. That is something that I have had to learn through nearly 50 years of following Newcastle United Football Club. I am still struggling with it although we did slightly better last weekend.

Finally, I come to the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch. She spoke, of course, very passionately. She is concerned that we get this right. She talked particularly about the two hours minimum of physical education. It is important to recognise that it was never enforced or mandatory; it was always aspirational. It will now be covered by Ofsted and primary school teachers will be encouraged to provide quality as well as quantity of sport, and to enhance that through the school sport premium and the youth and community sport initiatives.

I have run over time. I trust that the Committee will forgive me for that. This has been a fascinating debate and a great opportunity to raise these important issues, the aims of which we are all agreed on. It is also important to monitor progress along the way, and I hope that I have provided some reassurance in that regard.

Committee adjourned at 2.43 pm.

Categories of Gaming Machine (Amendment) Regulations 2014

Lord Bates Excerpts

Tuesday 12th November 2013 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Lord Bates]

That the Grand Committee do report to the House that it has considered the Categories of Gaming Machine (Amendment) Regulations 2014.

Relevant document: 10th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments.

[Lord Bates (Con)]

My Lords, these regulations are intended to increase existing stake and prize limits for some, but not all, categories of gaming machine. Gaming machines are an important source of revenue for many sectors of the gambling and leisure industries, and these measures will provide support for businesses which continue to experience difficult trading conditions.

The challenges faced by individual sectors, including family entertainment centres, bingo clubs and pubs, have had a marked effect on gaming machine manufacturing and supply businesses. According to the Gambling Commission, the total number of machines in the regulated industry fell by around 10% between 2010 and 2012. The Government consulted earlier this year on proposals to increase stake and prize limits for some categories of gaming machine. The Government received many representations in support of their proposals and remain confident that increases will not risk the licensing objectives in the Gambling Act, which rightly include the protection of children and vulnerable adults from being harmed or exploited by gambling. In fact, the Government have secured commitments from the gambling industry to develop, trial and implement strengthened player protection measures to help to build and maintain the public confidence necessary to accommodate the increased stake and prize limits. Such measures are particularly relevant to the casino industry, where gaming machines offer significantly higher prizes than other sectors of the industry.

Increases to stake and prize limits vary depending on the category of machine and the premises in which they are located. The level of increase is highest in casinos, which represent an appropriate venue for high stake and prize gambling given the stringent regulatory controls they are required to uphold. The new limits provide greater consistency with the level of gambling that is expected to take place in a casino and will stimulate capital investment in the industry, allowing it to compete more effectively internationally.

For machines found in clubs and pubs, the level of increase is lower. The Government are persuaded that these increases will provide support to businesses while remaining consistent with the licensing objectives. The Government propose to maintain stake and prize limits for all types of machine found in seaside arcades and travelling fairs, with the exception of penny-fall machines, where a small increase is proposed. This will minimise any potential risk to public protection from gaming machines accessible to children.

These regulations have been considered by the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee, and I am grateful for its contribution. The committee quite rightly identified the importance of minimising problem gambling, particularly in the context of young people, and requested the Government to keep this issue under close review alongside their efforts to help the gambling industry.

I assure noble Lords that the Government closely monitor the problem of gambling and welcome the contribution of the Responsible Gambling Strategy Board and the Responsible Gambling Trust, working with the industry to strengthen existing mechanisms to monitor the impact of gaming machines, stake and prize limits both economically and socially.

Overall, although it is an important growth measure for many struggling businesses, I believe that this package of measures strikes the necessary balance between creating the conditions for industry growth and maintaining the licensing objectives which underpin the Gambling Act 2005, and I commend the regulations to the Committee.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for his explanation of the changes. I am also extremely grateful to the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee, which has taken such an interest in these proposals and raised many of the questions that I might otherwise have asked.

First, I make clear that I welcome the decision to have a triennial review. It is obviously useful to keep stakes and prizes under review in a structured and timely manner, so that is a useful development.

Secondly, however, I share the concern of many who responded to the consultation, as well as the Scrutiny Committee, that the research evidence on the effects of those forms of gambling on poverty and addiction is so sparse. Given that we are dealing with important aspects of social policy, it is not good enough to argue that because something is unproven, we should carry on as before. Surely, the onus should be on the industry to prove that there is no causal link between the use of gambling machines and addiction before asking us to increase the stakes, and therefore their profits. Is the Minister happy that sufficient research is taking place? If not, what further steps do the Government have in mind to deliver substantive and compelling evidence on these issues? Thirdly, I believe that it is important to have a wider cost-benefit analysis on the impact of those changes than simply measuring the economic advantages of jobs in the sector.

In answer to a question by the Scrutiny Committee on the potential public sector impact on young and vulnerable people who are harmed by gambling, the Government replied that public protection will be secured if the industry delivers on its social responsibility and player protection commitments. However, it is not clear what mechanisms the Government have in place to secure those commitments from the sector. Surely, the evidence so far is of an industry reluctant to act against its own interests in maximising player participation and therefore potential profits. What levers do the Government intend to use to hold the industry to account on social responsibility and player protection?

Turning to the specific proposals in the regulations, I first ask the Minister about the increased stakes proposed for category D coin-pusher or penny-fall machines. I accept that the increase is small and that the impact may be minimal, but what justification is there for encouraging children and young people to gamble at an early age, given the acknowledged link between early gambling and problem gambling later? In reply to the Scrutiny Committee, the Government say that coin-pushers are generally played for amusement and are provided in a family environment. Although that may be true, is it not also true that those machines are usually sited next to other gambling machines that children might then also be tempted to play? A renewed attraction to those relatively small-scale machines cannot be seen in isolation if it is encouraging a more general gambling habit. Why is it necessary to take an added risk when there is a known connection between early gambling and problem gambling?

Finally, I would like to discuss the major concerns over B2 fixed-odds betting terminals. The Minister will know that there is increasing evidence of the harm that those machines are having on individuals and local communities through the proliferation of high-street betting shops, which are increasingly reliant on the profit from those machines. These machines are the source of some of the worst examples of gambling addiction. It is possible to lose up to £100 every 20 seconds, which is £18,000 an hour. The speed of play is faster than a roulette table, and it can happen without any staff contact or intervention. Meanwhile bookmakers containing these machines are being clustered in some of the poorest high streets in Britain, and local authorities have limited control over their expansion as in planning law they are classified in the same class as banks and building societies.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Moynihan (Con)]

My Lords, I welcome this order and echo many of the concerns mentioned by the noble Baroness with regard to the social protections we need to have in place for young and vulnerable people. But this is a regulated sector in which job losses, business closures and competition with jurisdiction overseas are to be found on virtually every page of the Explanatory Memorandum. Two hundred and ninety arcades have closed since 2009-10, with 900 jobs lost. These arcades are part of the character of so many of our traditional seaside resorts, and we should do everything we can to keep them competitive.

My principal reason for intervening on this order is because of the importance of consultation with sports clubs, which are mentioned in this document. I hope that sports clubs have welcomed this order, and I will be interested to hear what the Minister has to say on that subject. Sports clubs’ major task is to retain members and increase participation. Substantial investment is needed in sports clubs so that they stay competitive and attractive, whether by floodlighting their premises, segregating their changing rooms or upgrading their facilities—three items on which the noble Baroness, Lady Billingham, has always been eloquent and occasionally vociferous. Today, I am sure she will agree with me that licensed gaming machines, properly controlled, are an important source of income for some of our sports clubs, and we need to provide interest in those machines and demand for them from the membership. For that reason, it is important for sports club to view this order, see the changes that are being made and, I hope, welcome them. As I understand it, sports club machines come in category B4, or possibly B3A—the Minister will correct me if I am wrong. The proposal is to increase the minimum stake from £1 to £2 for those machines, and potentially the prize money from £250 to a maximum £400, to make it more attractive to players and, in turn, to generate more income for the sports clubs.

The noble Baroness rightly mentioned, and I echo her comments, due social protections should be put in place, with proper regulation in the clubs and protection of young and vulnerable people. With that, it would be right to support the order and recognise that both sport and sports clubs will benefit, in a difficult economic environment. Ultimately, I hope that we will see the goals that many of us who will participate in the next debate, albeit briefly, will want to see on the record—namely, an increase in participation in sport in this country, which can best be delivered by the clubs, which are there in the interests of their membership.

[Lord Bates]

My Lords, I am grateful to noble Lords who have spoken, who have in many ways captured the extent of the debate—the economic problems being faced by many sports clubs and other commercial enterprises around the country and, at the same time, a natural and right concern, which the Government share, about protecting vulnerable adults from exploitation.

The noble Baroness, Lady Jones, asked a number of specific questions, and I want to give them an appropriate response as best as I am able. But to respond quickly to my noble friend Lord Moynihan, who talked about the importance of gaming machines as a revenue stream for sports clubs and other private members’ clubs, that is correct. In the category of machines that will be found there are the B4 machines to which he referred, as well as the B3A and C machines. The clubs observe the Gambling Commission’s guidance and codes of practice to ensure effective social responsibility arrangements are in place.

The noble Baroness asked about research into the effects of gambling. I reassure her that work is already under way to advance our understanding about gaming machines and their impact. The Responsible Gambling Strategy Board, an independent expert advisory body, is working to develop a strategy which will review the impact of regulatory change and any associated changes in gambling behaviour, while the Responsible Gambling Trust is carrying out research which aims to better understand how people behave when playing gaming machines and what will help people to play responsibly. Again, in the context of this, it is important to realise that one reason for the decline is the growth of online gambling, which has no regulation or supervision at all. So drawing people to enjoying this form of leisure in a reasonable way in regulated areas would seem to help towards that. The work being carried out will further our understanding of the social impact of regulatory change and allow for the wider cost-benefit analysis on the impact of these changes to which the noble Baroness refers.

The noble Baroness asked about the justification for intervention and said that there should be an onus on the industry to justify proposals for stake and prize increases. The Government agree with that approach and are satisfied that sufficient evidence has been put forward by the industry to justify the stake and prize limits that the regulation proposes.

On strengthening player protections, the Government have consulted extensively and invited representations about research as part of the review. I should say to my noble friend Lord Moynihan that there were many representations and responses to the consultation received from sports clubs to this, and they were broadly in favour of the measures being put forward for the reasons that he has outlined. The Government have received advice from the Gambling Commission and the Responsible Gambling Strategy Board, and there is scope to increase the stake and prize limits for some categories of gaming machine, provided that the industry makes progress in strengthening player protection. It has twin sides; as the industry gets better at providing protection, it may be possible to consider further changes to the limits. That is the right way in which to proceed.

The noble Baroness, Lady Jones, referred to the risks to children, particularly from the increases in stake and prize limits to penny falls and coin pushers. The Government share the view that a cautious approach should be taken to products accessible by children. It is for these reasons that the Government have rejected the proposals from the industry to increase the stake and prize limits for reel-based gaming machines accessible to children and all other category D machines, with the exception of coin pushers.

The noble Baroness also referred to fixed-odds betting terminals, the so-called category B2 gaming machines. As part of the review, the Government sought quantifiable evidence on the impact of a reduction in stake and prize limits for these machines. However, the evidence received was inconclusive and the Government have been advised by the Gambling Commission and the Responsible Gambling Strategy Board that a precautionary reduction in stake and prize limits is currently unsupported by the available evidence. Despite this, the Government remain concerned about these machines and their potential association with an elevated risk of gambling-related harm. The Government have therefore made it clear that they will consider the future of the B2 machine to be unresolved. As the noble Baroness noted, the Prime Minister confirmed the Government’s commitment to monitor these machines to ensure a fair and decent approach that prevents problem gambling, and that is exactly the course of action that the Government are taking here.

As to the £18,000 per hour loss rate sometimes cited for B2 machines, this is astronomically improbable, one might say. It is an extreme calculation. However, the Government have acknowledged that it is quite possible to lose or win several thousand pounds within an hour within a normal range of behaviour on a machine. It is for these reasons that the measures I have outlined are so important and why the Government consider the future of these machines to be unresolved.

On betting-shop clustering on high streets, to which the noble Baroness referred, the Department for Culture, Media and Sport is in regular discussion with DCLG Ministers about the issue. I can certainly reassure noble Lords that these discussions will continue and that evidence will be monitored.

The Government are satisfied that the measures that we are debating today will bring benefits to businesses and sports clubs through much needed revenue and will allow consumers to enjoy a broader range of products in a responsible way. On the basis that the industry has committed to enhance its social responsibility measures and that work is under way to allow for proper assessment of the impact of these regulations, I am confident that the risk to problem gamblers and vulnerable people is minimal.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch]

Perhaps I may briefly prompt the Minister on the B2 issue, an area in which there is an agreed level of concern. He said that the Government’s view was unresolved and that the issue would continue to be under review. It would be helpful if the Minister could give a little more detail of how a resolution will be reached. What timetable and mechanism do the Government have in mind for digging into this issue, analysing it and bringing forward a new resolution?

The only other point I wish to make is that if you rely on the industry to come forward with evidence to show that there is not any harm, you will wait a long time. Somehow such evidence has to be found from other sources.

[Lord Bates]

That is correct. The noble Baroness has put her finger on a key point. However, it is an incentive for the industry. If it wants to see prize and stake limits increased in the future, it will have to collate such evidence and come forward with it. On her specific point, work is under way to rapidly improve our understanding of these machines. The Responsible Gambling Strategy Board is due to produce a report in autumn 2014, which will be before the next triennial review. I hope that that reassures the noble Baroness.

Motion agreed.

Millennium Development Goals

Lord Bates Excerpts

Thursday 7th November 2013 Grand Committee

[Lord Bates (Con)]

I thank all noble Lords for taking part in this debate. I particularly pay tribute to my noble friend Lord Loomba for introducing this debate so effectively and comprehensively. He has great authority from his work over many decades in this area of levelling the playing field to help women and girls around the world. He was also quite right to refer to the fact that my noble friend Lady Northover, the lead Minister for DfID in the House of Lords, particularly wanted to be here, but due to a close family bereavement she is unable to be. I am sure that the whole Committee will want to send our condolences to my noble friend.

As the 2015 deadline for the millennium development goals approaches, it is right that we come together today to explore the core issues around the progress of education for girls and women. Progress on MDGs 2 and 3 has been made. Globally, more girls go to school; in sub-Saharan Africa, the net enrolment rate for girls rose from 47% to 75% between 1990 and 2011. Gender parity in primary enrolment has improved significantly in regions that started the decade with the greatest gender gaps. Literacy rates are on the rise, and gender gaps are narrowing.

However, under Millennium Development Goal 3, the target of gender parity in primary and secondary education has been achieved by only two out of 130 countries. Gender gaps in access to education have narrowed, but girls are still disproportionately absent from the classroom; 31 million girls are still out of school, and 70% of these are from the most disadvantaged communities in the world. In 10 countries, at least half of poor, rural girls have never been to school. Girls suffer double discrimination; first because they are poor and secondly because they are female.

I now turn to the points raised in the debate to give them maximum time because there were some excellent points and pertinent questions.

The noble Lord, Lord Loomba, asked a specific question about allocations of the gender fund which has been established. He mentioned his disappointment with the information from the website which showed that perhaps not much of it had been drawn down. Of course, the updating of websites is an essential part of communication; I looked into that and found that the figure was from April. As of now, £225 million has been allocated, and £25 million has been spent. This is an innovative process where people are bidding for funds and therefore to ensure that there are the correct checks and balances, the period during which those funds get distributed is longer than normal.

By 2015 the UK will have supported 11 million children in education in primary and secondary schools and 190,000 teachers. There are some very innovative examples taking place in the Punjab region, which will be of particular interest to the noble Lord. Stipends have been introduced for children to encourage them to take part in school. This means actually sending them the books and the pens and giving them some resource to enable them to attend school. That applies to 400,000 children in the Punjab area, which I think is a positive initiative.

I remember serving in the other place with my noble friend Lady Chalker when she was Minister for Overseas Development, before it was so fashionable. She served in that role with great distinction for eight years and it is thanks to her that much of the legacy continues. She mentioned Rwanda and Ethiopia and I listened carefully to her points, particularly about the importance of having supportive governance in place at a provincial level to encourage education and make it a priority. It reminds us that educating girls is only the first step towards empowering them to take greater control of their whole lives, and to then move on to becoming more economically active, to have a greater base and then to move into government, governance and institutions. It was well pointed out that as well as being educated, women are also educators; if you have an educated parent then you will have an educated child.

The noble Lord, Lord Browne, asked a specific question about disability. There is some progress there. The noble Lord highlighted—and with astute knowledge because of his experience—where the canards are in this particular debate, because the absence of reliable data is one of the things that the high-level panel noted needed a great deal more work. One of the new millennium development goals was a data revolution, and how you disaggregate that data to show gender differences and then disaggregate that further to show differences between disability. I would just mention two points to the noble Lord. First, DfID has a strong commitment to the education of people with disabilities and it seeks to ensure all new educational construction directly funded by DfID is accessible to people with disabilities. Secondly, it is also working with other organisations, including the World Bank and NGOs, to improve and get better data so that they can tackle this issue. One of the pieces of data which quite shocked me does not relate to a specific area, but says that the limited statistics that are available indicate that only 3% of adults with disabilities are literate in the poorest countries of the world, and only 1% of women with disabilities. The data issue is a key part and that is something which DfID is looking at.

The noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, spoke powerfully about Syria in particular, and she used the words “the lost generation”, which is a great tragedy with so many refugees who are coming. On a recent visit, the Secretary of State established the lost generation fund of £30 million for children in Syria and the surrounding areas to ensure that they have better access to education. Therefore, we hope that the diplomatic efforts will be gathering pace, although that might take time. Of course, these are critical years for these children, some of whom I have seen myself in schools in the Bekaa area. She also mentioned access to good-quality education, which is important.

The noble Lord, Lord Crisp, mentioned completing education as well as making a point on data. He referred to his work with Sightsavers, which I know makes a huge difference around the world. Some 10 million children drop out from primary school education every year. The Girls’ Education Challenge will ensure that barriers preventing girls from benefiting from education are tackled at root by collecting data in a systematic way, by trying to track progress through the secondary school system and by asking those who qualify for the fund to collate data on the proportion of women marrying by the age of 15, attitudes towards age of marriage and choice of marriage partners. That data will help inform further work and further allocations.

My noble friend Lord Moynihan spoke about Olympic values, which of course have equality at their heart. As an Olympian of note, he has done a huge amount in this area. Last year, he rightly was awarded the Olympic Order of Merit for his work not just on the London Olympic Games but over many years on the international side and the development side. He works as a trustee of International Inspiration as well. He mentioned the Hunger Summit and the Hunger Challenge which came out of 2012. Before I came to the Moses Room, I read the new IOC president’s speech to the General Assembly of the United Nations yesterday to mark the Olympic Truce, which he and I worked on last year. He will have been heartened by that. It referred to the millennium development goals and the hunger pledges that were made, particularly towards Rio, which reminds us that education is body, mind and soul.

The noble Baroness, Lady Kinnock, served in the Foreign Office as a Minister and knows this area well. She spoke about the importance of ensuring funds to help and support Afghanistan in particular. The point is that women and girls are up front and central in all DfID’s considerations. The funding of £47 million over three years which DfID has allocated to the Ministry of Education is being supervised with that very much in mind. Just yesterday, my noble friend Lady Warsi met with officials from Afghanistan on that very point.

The noble Lord, Lord Bhatia, raised a specific point on the experience of migrants in education in the UK. Perhaps I may write to him on that. I would be very happy to meet on the margins of this debate to take better note of that issue. The noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, spoke about reproductive rights, which of course is a key part of giving women control over their own lives and bodies. It is a critical area that we need to look at. She also recognised the work of Gordon Brown as the UN Secretary-General’s envoy, particularly on global education. All who saw the incredibly moving speech by Malala in the margins of the General Assembly really brought hope to us about the importance of education. The more that her voice is heard, the better.

It is right therefore that the Government place women and girls at the centre of their approach. All UK education programmes in developing countries prioritise the education of girls and, where needed, have specific interventions to address gender-specific barriers to educational opportunities. UK aid has so far supported 6.4 million children at primary and secondary level, of which 3.1 million were girls. Looking beyond 2015, the UK, through the Prime Minister and his co-chairmanship of the high-level panel, has been at the forefront of building momentum around the standalone goal for women and girls in the new development framework. However, this battle is far from won. We will continue to work with others to push this important agenda forward over the next two years.

To conclude, it is important that we focus on keeping NGOs, charities and the private sector engaged in developing projects that will expand education opportunities for women and girls. The noble Lord, Lord Loomba, began our debate by reminding us that education is the best gift you can give any child. Much has been done but more needs to be done.

Committee adjourned at 5.56 pm.

Syria

Lord Bates Excerpts

Wednesday 30th October 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bates (Con)]

My Lords, I am pleased to answer this Question for Short Debate, and would like to thank the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Coventry for raising this very important issue and giving the House a timely opportunity to view what is currently being done and what needs to be done. In his introduction he used the term “catastrophe”, which pretty well sums up our view of what is happening there.

If noble Lords will bear with me I should like to update the House briefly on what Her Majesty’s Government are doing on the ground and then devote the vast majority of time to responding to as many of the questions as possible that have been raised by noble Lords. The Government are gravely concerned about the situation in Syria and across the region, and the UK has rightly been at the forefront of the humanitarian response. I would like to highlight three aspects in particular: our comprehensive funding approach, our efforts to improve the effectiveness of the international response, and our ground-breaking work to help avert a lost generation of Syrian children.

The UK’s total funding to Syria and the region is now half a billion pounds. Our support has reached hundreds of thousands of people across all 14 governorates of Syria, as well as Jordan, Lebanon, Iraq and Turkey. It is providing food for almost 320,000 people, improved water and sanitation services to more than 1.2 million people, and medical consultations to more than 315,000 people. We are working with partners to ensure that our own and the international response addresses the immediate and longer-term development needs of Syrians and host communities. The UK has taken a leading role on the international stage. Following UK lobbying at the G20 and the UN General Assembly, $1 billion in new funding has been pledged by the international community. The UK also spearheaded efforts to improve the leadership and co-ordination of the humanitarian response and to improve humanitarian access into Syria. It is unacceptable that humanitarian organisations are deliberately prevented from reaching those in need.

The UK also lobbied strongly for the recent UN Security Council presidential statement which aims to secure safe, unhindered access inside Syria. We will continue to work with the UN and others to implement the actions set out in the presidential statement.

The UK has recognised the disproportionate impact that the conflict has had and continues to have on Syria’s children, to which many noble Lords referred. More than 3 million Syrian children have been affected by the fighting and 1 million Syrian children are now refugees. The UK will not stand by while a whole generation is lost to the conflict, which has now been going on for more than two years. That is why we have put in place a new £30 million lost generation initiative to provide education, protection and trauma care to children affected by the crisis. We are working with UNICEF and others on a comprehensive strategy to meet the needs of children in Syria and the region.

I turn to the remarks initially made by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Coventry. He raised a number of specific issues and I shall try to respond to as many of them as I can. He referred to the importance of ensuring that people honour the commitments made at the G20 and the UN General Assembly. It is imperative that that happens, but what pressure can we put on them other than leading by example? Many noble Lords referred to the commitment of this Government of $784 million in aid, which is the second largest donation. Several noble Lords asked what other countries were doing in this regard. It may be of interest to the noble Lord, Lord Empey, who mentioned Russia, that it has provided $32.8 million. My noble friend Lady Berridge referred to France, which has provided $69 million. We will come back to the point that much more needs to be done, as the noble Lord, Lord Collins, said. Although vast sums are being poured in, the need is far greater, and only 40% of the pledged total has been reached so far.

[Lord Empey]

I am sorry to interrupt, but we should perhaps have mentioned the Chinese. I would be very interested to know what they are doing, as they are making plenty of money out of us and everybody else at the moment.

[Lord Bates]

I thank the noble Lord for his comment. The noble Baroness, Lady Symons, referred to the importance of Asian countries doing much more in this area. That is absolutely right—not just with aid but in the UN Security Council. The point is well made.

The right reverend Prelate talked about the impact on neighbouring countries. Several noble Lords referred to that and to the special pressure that it puts on those countries. Host Governments and communities have generously welcomed refugees. This has produced huge strains in neighbouring countries on services such as water supplies and education as well as on labour and rental markets. The UK is providing £167 million to meet the needs of refugees and host communities. We are working closely with the UN to support the development of an integrated approach to ensure that neighbouring countries continue to get the support that they need.

The right reverend Prelate and my noble friend Lady Berridge referred to the impact of refugees and asked whether Her Majesty’s Government would consider hosting refugees. The UK currently has no plans to resettle or offer temporary protection to Syrians at this time. The UK believes that the immediate priority should be to provide humanitarian assistance to displaced people in partnership with neighbouring countries and the UNHCR. With more than 2 million people now having been displaced from Syria, regional protection is the only realistic means by which the rights of the vast majority of displaced persons can be safeguarded. Accordingly, that should be our focus.

The right reverend Prelate also talked about the bureaucratic complexity faced on the ground. That is a big challenge. On the one hand, there is a sense of urgency—one wants the aid to get where it is needed as fast as possible—but it is also important to ensure that there is accountability for the funds that are being spent, and that there are robust systems. That is a very difficult balance to maintain but it is one that is certainly being pursued.

Noble Lords asked what percentage of the UK effort is directed to meeting emergency needs. All the UK’s humanitarian assistance at the moment is directed towards alleviating the emergency humanitarian crisis.

The right reverend Prelate asked about the recent comments of the noble Baroness, Lady Amos. We fully support the UN Under-Secretary-General’s call for reinvigorated efforts to find an end to the conflict and all that she is doing to seek to provide safe access. It is right for the House to pay tribute to one of our own—I think we can still say—who is doing such an immensely important job on the world stage at present.

My noble friend Lady Jenkin, who makes a significant contribution in her role as a trustee of UNICEF UK, raised the issue of sexual and gender-based violence. The UK is supporting survivors of sexual and gender-based violence, for example by providing clinical care and case management for 12,000 Syrian refugees in Jordan. We are also providing support to affected households and strengthening confidential support networks for survivors of sexual and gender-based violence. We work to ensure that the needs of women and girls are specifically factored into humanitarian programmes and urge others to do so. When we make great policy statements of this nature, my noble friend Lady Jenkin, as she so often does, reduces the macro down to the micro. Her recounting of the story of Alma brought home the horror of this type of violence.

It is important that in the refugee camps there is greater resourcing and training, particularly for the Jordanian police, to enable them to take a greater role in the camps. There are also some fairly simple solutions, such as ensuring that we have proper lighting in the latrine areas and on routes and pathways.

As a distinguished former Minister, the noble Baroness, Lady Symons of Vernham Dean, has a great deal of understanding in these areas. She specifically mentioned Archbishop Yohanna. I know that my honourable friend Alistair Burt, the former Minister, did a lot of work in this area and was in contact regularly. Officials are in contact with the office of the Greek Orthodox Patriarch, seeking to negotiate the safe release of Archbishop Yohanna and other clerics, who are now routinely being taken hostage.

The noble Earl, Lord Sandwich, referred to Iran. He asked whether NGOs would be able to attend the Geneva II negotiations. I am afraid that there are no plans for that at the moment. But if the work of Geneva II is to be sustained on the ground, it is vital that it is a partnership.

The noble Lord, Lord Empey, said that the West does not do the Middle East well—to which we might all answer that nobody does the Middle East well. If there is to be a lasting, peaceful solution, it will be for the people of the Middle East, who understand the Middle East, to find it.

My noble friend Lady Berridge mentioned child protection. We are supporting the regional protection programme but UNICEF is in the lead on these matters. Reconciliation seems a long way off at the moment but it is right to keep the focus on it. Before there can be reconciliation, there needs to be truth, as well as justice for those who have perpetrated these crimes against humanity.

The noble Lord, Lord Judd, referred to hospitality and asked whether enough was being done. The answer is no, enough is not being done. Much more needs to be done.

The noble Lord, Lord Williams, who has immense expertise in this area, talked about the problems that are being faced. I note his endorsement of Special Envoy Brahimi and his potential to offer a breakthrough at the Geneva II negotiations next year.

Finally, the noble Lord, Lord Collins, gave a moving speech. When he recounted how Justin Forsyth, the head of Save the Children, who must have seen so many horrors around the world, found himself shocked, that brought home to all of us the catastrophe in the region.

In conclusion, the British Government are committed to continuing to support the needs of those affected by the humanitarian crisis in Syria and the region. However, in a country where more people are now displaced than any other, where it costs $30 million a week to meet the food needs of those affected, and in a crisis where the appeals remain chronically underfunded, the international community needs to do much more. That is the message of this debate, which is wholeheartedly echoed by Her Majesty’s Government.

House adjourned at 9.59 pm.

Arab Spring

Lord Bates Excerpts

Tuesday 29th October 2013 Grand Committee

[Lord Anderson of Swansea (Lab)]

My Lords, I congratulate the right reverend Prelate on his initiative and I propose to go even further back than the noble Lord, Lord Selkirk, to a time before Franklin Delano Roosevelt—indeed, back to the year 313. This year we celebrate the anniversary of the Edict of Milan—the so-called Edict of Toleration—which stressed freedom of religion. It states:

“When I, Constantine Augustus, as well as I, Licinius Augustus, fortunately met near Mediolanum (Milan), and were considering everything that pertained to the public welfare and security, we thought … we might grant to the Christians and others full authority to observe that religion which each preferred; whence any Divinity whatsoever in the seat of the heavens may be propitious and kindly disposed to us and all who are placed under our rule”.

That was 1,700 years ago. Now that is echoed both in the international instrument mentioned by the noble Lord, Article 9 of the European convention, and of course, most of all, in Article 18 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. I recall that that post-war universal declaration has been signed by all the key countries in the Middle East, and the words are crystal clear with no ambiguity: freedom to manifest religion and freedom to change one’s religion. However much one tries to modify this—it is fair to say that there has recently been some helpful movement by the OIC on blasphemy—overall, the position has worsened.

A key phrase in the Edict of Milan is significant, which is,

“considering everything that pertained to the public welfare and security”.

There are echoes here of our prayer at the beginning of the Session, about seeking the tranquillity of the realm; that is, tolerance is designed to promote stability. In the Middle East today, the persecution of minority religions arises in part from instability and is itself a cause of instability. To quote the general secretary of the Fellowship of Middle East Evangelical Churches talking to the Barnabas Fund:

“The majority have been displaced from their homes with hardly anything to subsist on; most are jobless, homeless, and in danger of abduction and assaults by radical militants”.

The excellent FCO report Human Rights and Democracy 2012, published in April, says:

“It is deeply regrettable in particular that religious minorities in the Middle East and North Africa have in a large number of cases suffered as a result of instability linked to the Arab Spring”.

How much we welcomed that Arab spring; bliss was in the dawn. Alas, like many revolutions, many sons and daughters of that spring have been killed.

Of course, there is discrimination to varying degrees against many other minorities. One thinks of the peace-loving Baha’i in Iran and the Shia in Bahrain. Overall, however, the chief victims are Christians in the Middle East—as, indeed, in the world as a whole, as the Pew Forum has shown. Of the 49 Muslim states, 17 do not tolerate any other religion; one thinks of Saudi Arabia. It is clear that, after the Arab spring, the position of Christian minorities has worsened in the Middle East, where, of course, Christianity had its origins.

Even in the year before the Arab spring, there were many challenges to Christianity, which some saw as a foreign religion: the religion of the western imperialists, those who invaded Iraq and Afghanistan. Even Algeria, after a relatively tolerant period, brought in new, discriminatory laws in 2006. This tempo is increasing. Yes, Christians joined with Muslims in Tahrir Square in Cairo but former President Morsi increasingly followed the agenda of the Muslim Brotherhood and the Salafists. The Salafists have increased the pressure in Tunisia.

The real dilemma for Christians in many countries today is in recognising that they had a substantial degree of protection from absolute rulers such as Saddam Hussein and Mubarak. Now, despite rejoicing at the liberation of the Arab spring, they find themselves impelled to shelter behind the army or dictators who offer them a far better life. A day or two ago I spoke to a Conservative colleague who was asked by a leading Christian in Syria, “Do you think we shall be here in 50 years’ time?”. He said no, whereupon his Syrian friend replied, “Nor do I”. That is the extent of the pressure on Christians in their own homeland.

What is the nature of the current persecution? The first observation, obviously, is that in this new secularism, western Governments are curiously reluctant to intervene on behalf of Christians and minorities. Christian churches are burnt down, suicide bombers launch attacks on church leaders, while some, such as the Syrian Archbishop of Aleppo, are abducted. Christian families are forced to flee. It is said that over 50% of Egyptians in London are Coptic Christians. In Iran it was hoped that there would be an improvement under President Rouhani, but the latest reports say that no, there has not been.

How should we respond to this? We should do so, first, by seeking to have a blameless record ourselves. We cannot be taken seriously—

[Lord Bates (Con)]

My Lords, I hesitate to intervene on the noble Lord, but I am conscious of the six-minute time limit on speeches.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

I shall end in a moment. Let us have a perfect record by avoiding Islamophobia. We must recognise that Muslims are under pressure in countries such as Sri Lanka and Burma. Let us also urge those states that do persecute to mend their ways and accord with the international instruments of which they are members. Most of all, in so far as the Arab spring has soured almost everywhere, we should use every weapon at our disposal, including the sensitive ones, because we must go beyond ritual condemnation. We should use all our tools of soft power, including—I stress this—conditionality because it would be absurd if we continued to bankroll those countries which persecute their minorities, including Christian minorities.

Millennium Development Goals

Lord Bates Excerpts

Wednesday 23rd October 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bates (Con)]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this debate. It has been an incredibly disciplined performance, which has allowed me more time to respond than I had anticipated. I will therefore try to respond to as many questions as possible.

I join noble Lords in paying tribute to the noble Baroness, Lady Jenkin, for the way in which she introduced this debate and for her consistent support for this issue as the co-chair of Conservatives for International Development. The noble Baroness talked about my charity endeavours, but I seem to be for ever receiving e-mails from the noble Baroness about her charity endeavours, and I know that many other noble Lords have incredible track records as well. The noble Baroness spoke powerfully and knowledgeably about the issues and in particular highlighted what had happened already through the millennium development goals. Sometimes there is a certain cynicism about goals and targets. However, the fact that since 2000 we have seen the level of extreme poverty reduced by half and that 3 million fewer children under the age of five die each year is quite an extraordinary progression. Much has been done, but as the noble Baroness reminded us, much still needs to be done.

I also thank noble Lords for their warm welcome to me in this position. I was just reminded that exactly five years ago, when I came to this House, I made my maiden speech in a debate on the UN millennium development goals, and here I am making my maiden speech from the Government Front Bench on this same subject. I appreciate that, because when you look at those statistics—and remember that behind each of those statistics, as we were reminded, there are human beings—I can think of no more important issue before your Lordships’ House than this one.

The Government strongly welcome the report of the High Level Panel on Post-2015 Development Agenda. The members of the panel, including, of course, the Prime Minister, came with the very bold target of trying to eradicate poverty by 2030. The noble Baroness, Lady Jenkin, talked about the need to tackle the root causes, as well as the symptoms, of poverty. Noble Lords will know that there is no record of a single conflict-affected country that has achieved one of these millennium development goals. We should therefore remember, as the noble Lord, Lord McConnell, said so passionately, that there can be no development without peace—and there can probably be no sustained peace without development. It is very important to us to see those recognised in these millennium development goals.

The noble Lord, Lord McConnell, also referred to the importance of including women and girls, in particular, in the development targets, as they are critical to a whole range of cross-cutting measures to the reaching of wider goals. The noble Lord, Lord Dholakia, referred to gender parity. Again, we see that that is included in the proposed targets, and the goals to back them up. Specifically and rightly, it is focused on the need to have a target for reducing violence against women and girls. The noble Earl, Lord Sandwich, made a very good point about the number of goals that are increasing, although the proposed targets beneath them are being reduced. This is, of course, a report to the UN General Assembly, so there will be a process through which they will be prioritised and sharpened. However, it was very important to get the maximum amount of consensus around what the targets needed to be. The noble Lord also pointed out that contributions and aid from EU member states had fallen because of the recession. What can the Government do about this? They can use persuasion; and in many areas of life the best way to lead is by example. Her Majesty’s Government, in being the first of the G8 to reach the 0.7% goal set out some 30 years ago, is leading in the right way.

The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Ripon and Leeds asked two very specific questions on climate change. Of course, on climate change we have in goal 7 the aim to secure sustainable energy, while goal 8 is to create jobs, sustainable livelihoods and equitable growth. The report highlighted some very important issues. One of the most staggering figures was that the bottom billion, to which we referred, consume 1% of the world’s resources, while the top billion consume 72%. It is therefore axiomatic that it is unsustainable. You can argue that you want wealth and prosperity to increase—and we do—but if it happened at that rate, there would be major problems. It is right, therefore, that there is a sustainable dimension to this. That a parallel track is going on here with the Rio+20 initiative is the big contribution. Linking them both together, I think, gives the right balance between development and the environment.

My noble friend Lord Patten spoke with great experience about the importance of businesses in this regard. I would say two things. First, the high-level panel took the approach of trying to include voices from business; 250 representations were received from businesses. This had to be part of a global partnership between NGOs, between businesses and between Governments. My noble friend will be aware that one of the key recommendations to come out of it was the golden thread argument that it all is dependent on economic growth, development and trade. I thought it was a very important point.

The noble Lord, Lord Boateng, spoke from his immense experience in this area about Africa and agriculture and again referred to areas of innovation and technology. There is some good news here in the goals and specific targets, about how technology can be used to deliver the progress that we all seek and the contribution to the Global Fund. Of course, the global partnership will also help move towards this, as will higher education and science. The developed world can do this by attracting and inviting more students and making it possible for more students to benefit from world-class higher education.

Everywhere you look in this Chamber you see people who have been at the forefront of pursuing this agenda over many years. The noble Lord, Lord Jay, talked about the importance of climate change and development. I thought that he spoke very astutely, as a distinguished former Permanent Secretary, of ensuring that the two sides are actually joined up in their thinking as they move forward with their recommendations.

The noble Baroness, Lady Prosser, talked about the cross-cutting issues and in particular about empowerment for girls and women. Again, we see that set out in the second of the goals with a number of new proposals and targets, which I think will make progress in the area that we want.

The noble Lord, Lord Crisp, talked about disabled people and about the data collected. Data are one of the key elements in this. I was reading the excellent contribution from the noble Lord, Lord McConnell, on Lords of the Blog about the quality of data in development. It is a very big issue. That is why there needs to be a partnership. It cannot just be down to the Governments to collect those data. There is a role for NGOs and civil society to provide data that can help us in measuring that.

The noble Lord, Lord Judd, has immense experience in this area from his time with Oxfam, which he mentioned. He talked about a number of things, probably the most important being that we need more time to discuss this. As a business manager as well as a Minister on this occasion, I cannot dodge that. I assure the noble Lord that I will take up that issue and perhaps through the usual channels come back with more time for us to debate this.

The noble Lord, Lord St John of Bletso, talked about the importance of internet connectivity. This is absolutely critical. Mobile telephony has transformed prospects in the developed world through banking and communication. The same could be done through the extension of smart grids, efficient transport, storm-water management, energy-efficient buildings and particularly broadband and internet connection. That is a point very well made.

My noble friend Lady Tonge referred to the importance of population. Of course, when the original millennium development Goals were set out, there were 1 billion fewer people on the planet. If those goals are to be achieved, they will have to be achieved at a time when there will be another 1 billion, by 2030. That is why the provisions on access to sexual and reproductive health measures in the report are so important and why the Government are committed to try to see them through to reality. The noble Viscount, Lord Craigavon, made the same point about population. This is absolutely at the core of what we are talking about.

The noble Lord, Lord Collins—I thank him for welcoming me to the Dispatch Box—talked about the importance of us leading by example in appointing more women candidates and having a greater role for women in this country. I totally agree that that is very important. Probably the best thing that I can say in the Government Benches’ favour is to point to my noble friend Lady Jenkin, who secured this Question for Short Debate; not only has she worked in international development, she has done so much to get more women engaged at the highest level of government.

This has been a very important debate. There have been some immensely strong contributions and, going forward, we can reflect on what has been done, which is substantial in real lives and real progress. We can also be excited by those striving goals of seeking to eradicate poverty within this generation; that will be historic, and we will all have played our part.

Children: Contact with Fathers

Lord Bates Excerpts

Thursday 13th June 2013 Lords Chamber

Asked By

[Lord Bates]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the finding by the Centre for Social Justice that around one million children in Britain grow up with no contact with their fathers.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud)]

My Lords, the Government’s commitment to supporting strong and stable families was most recently set out in our Social Justice: transforming lives—One year on report. Families are the bedrock of our society and the Government’s commitment to parental involvement in their children’s lives where this is practicable and safe is clear. This Government are rightly taking action, both to help families stay together and to support an ongoing relationship between parents and their children where breakdown is unavoidable.

[Lord Bates]

I am grateful to my noble friend for that Answer. Does he accept that this report confirms that the absence of a father figure in a child’s life results in a child being statistically less likely to achieve higher educational outcomes, more likely to encounter the criminal justice system, more likely to have health and emotional problems, to have a higher chance of teenage pregnancy and to be more likely to suffer from severe economic disadvantage? As we approach Father’s Day this weekend, will my noble friend reaffirm the vital role that fathers have to play alongside mothers in raising their children? Should he be in search of an appropriate gift for Father’s Day, I point him in the direction of the manifesto commitment to introduce a married couples’ tax allowance.

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, I congratulate my noble friend on the alacrity with which he has asked this Question, because I do not think that the CSJ has yet published the report, so I cannot respond in detail on what is in it. Clearly, however, the coalition agreement contained the transferable tax allowance. That remains the Government’s intention.

Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Bill

Lord Bates Excerpts

Tuesday 4th June 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bates]

My Lords, it is in the nature of taking part in debates in your Lordships’ House that the longer the debate goes on, the less one feels like taking part and the more one feels like taking notes. The past two days have been an example of that.

I want to focus on one aspect. I am concerned that politicians and religious communities have spent far too much time making the case for what we believe marriage is not, and insufficient time in making the case for what it is, what it could be and what it should be.

Marriage and the family are the basic building blocks of our society. It is more than the ultimate B&B, taxi service and ATM. At its best it is a school, a hospital, a welfare system, a justice system, a library, a bank, a care system, and a playground. It is the place where we learn our values and how to interact with each other. Marriage is irreplaceable and those who doubt its value to society need only look at the alternative when the state is forced to take children into care. Those who have the privilege of growing up in a stable home of that nature have higher health and wealth outcomes than their unmarried counterparts.

Marriages fail—more than one-third fail before their 20th anniversary—but businesses fail too, yet we have not found a better way of creating wealth and opportunity, although we have tried. If the parameters for marriage are expanded through this legislation, will it lessen or devalue my own marriage? The answer can only be that it will not. That can only be a matter for my wife and I—how we choose to honour the vows we made and the love we expressed for each other and how we do that each and every day. I do not make my marriage “more” by claiming that other relationships are “less”.

However, there is another concern which is real, and it is this. Could this legislation be portrayed or interpreted by some as an attack on the institution of marriage itself? I received a total of 164 communications on this matter, including 116 letters and 48 e-mails. Of the letters, 107 were against and only eight were in favour of the Bill. Of the e-mails, 24 were against and 24 were for the Bill. It would be difficult to pick up a common theme running through the letters and communications that I received but, if I were to do so, it would probably be people writing to say, “Marriage is sacred and special, and we’re worried that this Bill may damage it in some way”. I acknowledge that that impression is plausible, given how this measure has been presented, and that is why bringing forward a measure that was not in the manifesto should have been accompanied by the bringing forward of measures that were—for example, recognising the importance of marriage in the tax and benefits systems. Investment in marriage probably has the best multiplier effect on the health and wealth of society, yet so often we take it for granted.

However, there is also a responsibility on religious organisations, which, rather than lamenting that the end is nigh for marriage, should be celebrating more what marriage does and acknowledging the work of organisations such as Relate, founded by a clergyman, Herbert Gray, 70 years ago, or Care for the Family, founded by Rob and Di Parsons 25 years ago, which provide practical help to people to keep going through tough times. Marriage will survive and adapt in the future, as it has in the past, not because of any legislation that says so but because it manifestly works better than all the other systems that have been tried.

With that, I come to my closing remarks, which relate to the nature of the amendment. I have thought very carefully about the way that the amendment was put forward and about its appropriateness. Some of the arguments here have focused on the need to give this legislation more consideration. We need to check that the balances and safeguards that have been presented are adequate, and what better place to do that than in your Lordships’ House? That therefore suggests that the Bill should be allowed to proceed to Committee and Report, where we would be able to revise it.

The second point that I want to mention was made, I think, by the noble Lord, Lord Dear, who referred to the perhaps supine nature of some of our colleagues in the other place when they considered this matter. It was suggested that they were conscious of their own careers and were informally whipped into the Lobbies. I wish that, for example, the government Chief Whip in the other place were here to give evidence about how uncontrollable the government Benches, in particular, are there, even with a three-line Whip, never mind a free vote. Therefore, claiming that this was anything other than a sincerely intended and deliberate statement of intent and desire would, I think, be wrong.

My final reason for not supporting the amendment—I speak as someone who has served as a member of the Whips’ Office at both ends—is that I think it is a tactical mistake. Some people, including me, have some very serious reservations about the Bill as it currently stands, and we would like to see those tested by Members of this House, through amendments tabled and reasoned, before we give our consent to the Bill at Third Reading. However, we are being put in the position of having to decide on a constitutional issue—namely, whether we should try, at Second Reading, to close off a Bill which has come to us from the other place with a majority of 225 on a free vote. Personally, I should like to see the Bill proceed to Committee and Report, and then to be able to offer my view at Third Reading, rather than have that debate and your Lordships’ scrutiny pre-empted.

Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill

Lord Bates Excerpts

Tuesday 19th March 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bach]

My Lords, I very much support what my noble friend has said in moving the amendment. The House seems very quiet this evening, following the shenanigans of this afternoon when it looked very much to some of us as though there was an organised group on the other side—many of whose members are no longer present, of course, it being after dinner time—who found a huge interest in this Bill in order to keep the Report stage going. Be that as it may, those times are obviously past.

If I read correctly, the Minister—to whom I attach no blame at all for what has been going on, of course—said in reply to my noble friend in Committee that the cost in the last of the three years of allowing this amendment would be around £50 million. Let me tell her one way, at least, that that £50 million could be found five times over. The communities department has £250 million to spend, and has done for some time, in order to make rubbish collections weekly rather than fortnightly. No doubt that is a priority for some, and no doubt it has a validity of its own. However, compared to the wrong which is being done by this Bill—and by others too—and in particular the wrong addressed by my noble friend in her amendment, could the Government not get some proper sense of priority as to what does and does not matter, even at this late stage? That is £50 million, compared with £250 million that is sorted away. This was not mentioned, of course, by the noble Lords who were this afternoon defending the Government’s position with such vigour, because it is an inconvenient truth that in government there is spend which could be much better spent on protecting those who are going to be hammered by this legislation. I ask the noble Baroness to answer my question: what is wrong with spending part of that £250 million, and agreeing to my noble friend’s amendment?

[Lord Bates]

My Lords, I was not intending to speak on this amendment, but I rise at the prodding of the noble Lord, Lord Bach, who seemed to suggest that some kind of operation was going on in the conduct of our discussion. If there was any operation, the strangest thing about it was that there was not a single speech from the Back Benches of Her Majesty’s Opposition. It is amazing. We are talking here about what we recognise as being critical issues. On each amendment, there were probably three speeches from the Back Benches here, but not one single speech from the Back Bench of the Official Opposition. If the noble Lord wants to come back on that, I shall be more than happy to give way.

[Baroness Hollis of Heigham]

I overheard one of the government Whips encouraging those who sit on the Privy Council Bench to speak and speak and to string out it out to delay the votes. I heard that myself. Those Members made their own decisions and I do not in any sense criticise the quality of their speeches. I also saw briefing being passed from the Minister and so on. Perhaps the noble Lord could not see from where he was sitting in the same way as we who have a front-stalls view of what is going on might have done, but, certainly, there was active encouragement of three privy counsellors, none of whom has been known to display any interest in social security hitherto—unlike the noble Lord. All credit to the noble Lord: he has stayed with us; he works on these matters; and he tries to take a balanced approach. I make no criticism of him, but, as to today’s proceedings, there was not a shadow of doubt. Perhaps the noble Lord was sitting in the wrong place, in more ways than one.

[Lord Bates]

That is a wonderful way of expressing it. The noble Baroness has been complimentary to me; let me reciprocate by stating a fact. She knows more about this subject than anybody else in this Chamber and everybody would immediately acknowledge that. Our previous discussions in Committee and at Second Reading were enhanced immeasurably by her thought-provoking contributions. Now, what is more unusual: that a few Members on Her Majesty’s Government’s side should rise to speak in support of the amendments or that the noble Baroness did not make one speech during their consideration?

[Baroness Hollis of Heigham]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for letting me come back on this. Today, we started with a key debate on whether it was right to tie future Secretaries of State’s decisions on the rate of uprating of benefits. My noble friend Lord McKenzie moved the relevant amendment and we had an extensive discussion. We then had a hugely important debate on children, a hugely important debate on disabled people and then an important debate led by the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood. The noble Lord, Lord Bates, will know as well as I do that, as we had only effectively half a day—because people are not here after dinner—to discuss four key issues, either we had to postpone key debates to a period of time when no one would be here, including his Privy Council colleagues, to listen and take part, or we acted in a way that was self-disciplined in order that the arguments at least in their basic form could be heard, so that those who wished to—and there were not very many on his side—could come in and listen to those points being made to see whether they affected their vote. We were trying to act responsibly. Had we had two days on Report, we could have paced it differently and I for one would have been delighted to have spoken at least three times on each amendment and made a dozen speeches.

[Lord Bates]

I take the noble Baroness’s point and shall not pursue it further. I had not intended to make that point, but it is important. Perhaps I may say one other thing. Since I have trodden on a few toes, let me tread on truly sacred ground.

[Lord Bach]

I wonder whether the noble Lord is going to deal with the amendment in what he has to say.

[Lord Bates]

I am going to deal with it. I want to come back to the point that I was going to make previously, because I think it is relevant. For the first six weeks of the 39 weeks of statutory maternity pay, 90% of the benefit that is payable is linked to earnings. The point that I was going to make is that, while benefits have increased in line with inflation by 20% in the past five years, as we have heard many times, average earnings have increased by only 10%. In fact, according to the Centre for Social Justice, that increase for some of the lowest earners, particularly females, has been 7.8%. I wanted to make the point that in terms of helping with maternity pay at that particular point, the best we can do is see a growth in salaries. If salaries grow, it is axiomatic that the statutory maternity benefit in that first six weeks will be enhanced. The problem is that salaries have been suppressed.

The OBR report relating to the Bill that we are debating shows some quite encouraging signs. For the first quarter of 2014, we have a forecast of increases in the order of 4.5% per year, growing to 4.6% during the period of this Bill. Surely increases of that nature, when linked to the statutory maternity pay of which we are talking, must have some effect. In the same way, I inquired of the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, who introduced this amendment, whether the stark numbers that she presented to us contained any element that reflected the suppression of wages that we have seen over the past five years. This has been seen particularly in the private sector, although it has been in the public sector as well, where wage increases are subject to a 1% cap. That is the point that I ask the noble Baroness to clarify when she responds.

Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill

Lord Bates Excerpts

Tuesday 5th March 2013 Lords Chamber

Given that leading poverty researchers and statisticians are endorsing the indicators enshrined in the Child Poverty Act and reproduced in this amendment, the Government should think very hard before changing the measure of child poverty. That is not to say that there is not scope for complementing it with indicators of risk factors and consequences, which is what many of the indicators suggested in the consultation are and which the previous Government published. I hope that in responding the Minister will not take refuge in a measurement consultation, which would appear to have received a pretty resounding thumbs-down, but will address the substantive question of the impact of this nasty Bill on the numbers of children living in poverty and the implications of that for their obligations under the Child Poverty Act 2010.

[Lord Bates]

My Lords, I rise with trepidation following the noble Baroness, who has immense expertise in this area. Even if I had not intended to speak on the technical aspects of this amendment, the claim by the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, whose approach is always sharp and pointed in proposing such matters, that this Government is not serious about tackling child poverty would demand a response. Not only is it there for us to read repeatedly in government statements that this Government, as with their predecessor, are committed to the eradication of child poverty, but when we are tempted to get a little too high and mighty about that, one might look at the targets which the previous Government set in respect of halving child poverty by 2010 and how they performed against that measure—they did not tackle it. The commitment is real and is what is driving the whole argument towards universal credit, the raising of tax thresholds, the freeing up of the economy to create 1 million new jobs—which is a pathway out of poverty—the troubled families programme and the pupil premium. This is an immense drive across all departments within government to tackle what we accept is a shame on a country which is still the seventh-richest nation on earth—that 2.3 million children should be in poverty. I just make that point initially.

[Baroness Hollis of Heigham]

Given the Minister’s very welcome and obviously understandable sympathies and sensitivities towards the issue of child poverty, does that mean that we can expect the noble Lord to table an amendment at Report stage to protect child benefits, including the child benefits within tax credits, from this Bill altogether?

[Lord Bates]

I will come to that point in a minute because it is an interesting one about the effectiveness of the cash measure alone in eradicating child poverty. The previous Government failed to meet their target of reducing child poverty by the level they set themselves, despite spending £171 billion between 2003 and 2010. Here, in a sense, is something that almost makes the case for the Opposition, were they to take it. Those of us on the government Benches could stand here and point to the fact that, in 2010-11, 300,000 children were taken out of relative poverty. We could say that, but of course we realise that that is not actually happening on the ground. We recognise that those immense pressures are there. I do not dispute the quotes that the noble Baroness has used in introducing this but the Institute for Fiscal Studies, in its helpful analysis, points to the fact that all that happened with that 300,000 was that you had private sector incomes—predominantly—being repressed or flat-lining. I am trying to follow the gestures of the noble Baroness but being a man I can do only one thing at a time. Private sector incomes increased by 10% over the years 2007 to 2012 while benefit levels increased by 20%. That is one of the arguments that is put. Because it is pitched at median income, you then find that, as the Institute for Fiscal Studies shows in its graph, the measure comes down, the benefits go up and effectively you say, almost like a card trick, “We have reduced child poverty by 300,000”. In fact, you have done nothing of the sort. All that has happened is that, during a recession, private sector incomes have fallen and therefore, as the IFS says:

“If earnings fall relative to benefit levels, then being in work becomes less financially attractive”.

Those are the IFS’s words, not mine.

[Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton]

My Lords, I apologise to the Committee. I was unable to be present for the beginning and I have obviously missed the explanation of a phrase that I cannot understand. The noble Lord has just repeated that the answer to child poverty is not money. I do not know the explanation for the Government’s view that you do not eradicate child poverty by providing money. I wonder whether the noble Lord could refresh my memory.

Secondly, the noble Lord comes from a different northern region from mine. The biggest problem that people face is poverty when they are struggling to go to work. They are struggling to get extra hours, which the Government are insisting that people have to try to do, when their employers will not give them extra hours; when the only extra hours they can get may be two hours further away from their home and the cost of travel there is impossible. I think that noble Lords opposite are not living in the same world as I am. My only reassurance is that the right reverend Prelate appears to be living in my world.

[Baroness Hollis of Heigham]

My Lords, perhaps I may add to my noble friend’s comments. The noble Lord perfectly accurately described what was happening to the 300,000 children who were lifted out of poverty because the median income line fell by virtue of the recession and the downward pressure on incomes. Of course, he is completely right, but the other way of stating that was that as a result of what the previous Government did, the incomes of those children—the poorest of the poor—were protected against the effects of the recession, for which most of us are grateful and appreciative, including the noble Lord, I am sure.

[Lord Bates]

I accept that point. On the first point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Farrington, of course I am not saying that child poverty has got nothing to do with money. It is vastly to do with money, but is that the only thing that impacts on child poverty? If we want to impact on child poverty, do not the quality of housing, the quality of education and the opportunity to work have some bearing on the fact? Does the fact that the parents are in debt or are drug-dependent or alcohol-dependent have any bearing on it? Does living in a one-parent family or with two parents make any difference to the life chances of the child in poverty? One would probably have to say: yes, to a degree. I am simply saying that there is more to this.

That fact is borne out by international comparisons. I found a report card of child well-being, which was produced while the previous Government were in power. It was undertaken by UNICEF and it is an international comparison. Yes, it looks at cash, although interestingly it looks at 50% of the median, not 60%; it also looks at health and safety, educational opportunities, work opportunities, family and peer relationships, behaviours and risks, and subjective well-being—a broad range of indicators in a basket of trying to assess international child well-being. By the way, if the party opposite is interested, it actually came last: 18.2 was that Government’s average ranking position out of the most advanced countries in the world, but that is not my point.

My point is that we must come back to the median income. The median income is worth looking at in itself because that is the test that we are using to measure all benefits. It relates to a level of income—not an average income but a median income, the most frequent across the distribution. The latest figures I could find on the ONS website showed that median incomes vary quite substantially across the United Kingdom—nothing unusual there; you would expect that to happen. For example, in London the median gross wage is £651.80 per week, but in the north-east the figure is £451.80 per week. These are the latest figures; I accept that there might be a shift slightly in one direction—well, upwards only.

There is a difference of 44% across the range. Therefore, when we are applying a national target of 60% of the median, we need to examine whether that is giving us an accurate reflection of child poverty levels in all parts of the country. It might be that we are understating it in parts of the north, Wales and the south-west; it may be that we are overstating it in London—I do not know. None the less, using that as the sole measure to test median income across a national rating by which we actually assess those in child poverty is worth taking a more careful look at.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

Does the noble Lord accept that the Child Poverty Act was not looking at just the metrics of the targets? Section 9(2)(b) talks about ensuring that,

“as far as possible that children in the United Kingdom do not experience socio-economic disadvantage”.

We had big debates about that. The Act requires strategies for,

“the promotion and facilitation of the employment of parents or of the development of the skills of parents … the provision of financial support for children and parents … the provision of information, advice and assistance to parents and the promotion of parenting skills … physical and mental health, education, childcare and social services, and … housing, the built or natural environment”.

It was not looking at just those targets; there is a whole range of strategies that this Government should be adopting if they are signing up to this Act.

[Lord Bates]

That is a more reflective point; it is just not exactly what the amendment before us today actually refers to. It refers to the financial measures of “absolute low income”. Is that the one that is based on 1998-99 and uprated for inflation in a direct line?

My point is that there is an absolute crying need, of which we are all absolutely aware. There is child poverty out there and we need to strain every sinew to ensure that we tackle it. Also, we have no doubt that on the current measure there is no question that it is going to increase. The Office for Budget Responsibility’s figures forecast that as the recovery gets under way, private sector earnings will increase by 4.6% per annum. It does not take a great mathematical mind—which is fortunate for me—to figure out that with what we are dealing with today, as well as the likely increase in private sector incomes, we are going to see the gap rising and almost an inversion of what has happened over the past few years happening in the future. But there are more indicators that need to be examined to give us a holistic picture and to ensure that we target scarce resources where they are needed most.

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, this proposed new clause would require the Secretary of State to lay a report in each of the years in question, assessing the impact of that year’s uprating order on child poverty based on the different measures contained in the Child Poverty Act. I absolutely understand noble Lords’ concern to ensure that we are tracking progress and impacts on child poverty. However, I do not believe that this new clause is necessary to do that.

The Government already publish child poverty figures every year using the households below average income series, which is usually published in May or June and includes details on the areas listed in the amendment: namely, the number of children,

“living in relative low income … combined low income and material deprivation … absolute low income … persistent poverty”.

Moreover, later this year, we will see the first of what will become an annual report from the Social Mobility and Child Poverty Commission, chaired by Alan Milburn. It will report on the Government’s progress towards reducing child poverty, in particular meeting the targets in the Act and implementing the most recent UK strategy.

The noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, asked a number of questions about that commission. He asked where it had got to and what it was going to say. The answer is that the Government do not know what it is going to say because it is an independent commission. We await its report eagerly, but we are not attempting to pull it up by the roots to find out what it is going say as it is in the process of undertaking its work. I can reassure my noble friend that there is no drift in the work of the commission. It is a very substantive piece of work and it is therefore not surprising that it cannot do it very quickly. We expect that its report will be available in the late summer. It will report to Parliament and I am sure that we will give considerable scrutiny to it in your Lordships’ House when the time comes—we are already looking forward to it on these Benches, I can tell you.

I strongly believe that it is only through such comprehensive reporting, looking at poverty issues in the round, that we can have a meaningful debate about child poverty. As noble Lords have mentioned, we published in response to a Parliamentary Question in another place the expected impacts on child poverty of the uprating measures that we have announced. An additional 200,000 children will be in that category by the end of the period covered by the Bill as a result of the measures in it.

The noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, asked whether we would publish other impacts of the measure. We do not think that it is possible to derive estimates of all the measures in the Bill. For example, impacts cannot be modelled for the persistent low income poverty measure because impact assessments are based on cross-sectional data rather than longitudinal data. In addition, measures based on an estimate of material deprivation are technically complex to model because material deprivation relies on more factors than just income, so impacts have not been modelled for these measures. The noble Baroness asked also about the absolute poverty figure. If she will forgive me, I shall write to her on that separately.

As we have said previously, we believe that we need to be cautious about setting too much store by such individual assessments of impact. These are not predictions of how the child poverty figures will change in the future, as they do not take into account all the other variables which exist. For example, our estimates will change as forecasts of economic growth and average earnings change, and they do not take account of policies which cause child poverty figures to move in the other direction such as universal credit. Universal credit, which has not played much of a part in our debate today, is of course expected to lift up to 250,000 children out of poverty depending on the effect of the minimum income floor. I believe that we can have a meaningful debate about poverty, as we have started to do in the latter part of this debate, only when we accept that poverty goes wider than the measures contained within the Child Poverty Act.

The noble Baroness, Lady Lister, asked a number of questions about the work that we are doing on defining poverty and on the consultation. The consultation is finished. She is quite right that a number of people have been very critical of what the Government are proposing and we are now considering how we respond to those criticisms. It is not the case that the Government have made up their mind about the outcome and are going to ignore everything that has been said—that would be ridiculous. I can give the noble Baroness an assurance that we are analysing all the submissions, of which there have been a number, and we will produce our response to the consultation in the summer.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Sherlock]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have spoken in this debate, which may be an interesting precursor to the kind of debate we may have when the commission finally reports. I am particularly and genuinely pleased to hear the Minister say two things—first, that the Government remain committed to eradicating child poverty and, secondly, that income matters. They are both important statements, and I welcome them and am very pleased to have them on the record. I thank the Minister for making them so clearly.

The noble Lord, Lord Bates, with whom it is always a pleasure to do battle, took me to task for saying that I did not somehow accept that the Government made clear their commitment to eradicating child poverty. What I was challenging was not that commitment but whether or not the actions were being taken that would make it a reality. That was the point that I was trying to make, and I apologise if that was not clear. My question was really about what one does to make a difference.

A lot has been said about the nature of the measure. I have never thought that the well-being of children was about only money. However, the reason why this amendment is about money is because the Bill is about money; the amendment is about the impact of the Bill, and the Bill is solely about what happens to the tax credits and benefits that go out to people—in this case, children. So it makes no sense for it to be any broader than that.

The second thing that is worth saying is that I made it clear that the relative income measure was, deliberately, only one of four income measures in the Child Poverty Act, and that was for a reason. The Government of the day recognised that we had to take a 3D approach to understanding what poverty was, and no single measure alone would be able to give us all we needed. However, those four points of perspective between them give a pretty good idea of what is happening to incomes across the UK. That is something that we need to understand.

The noble Lord, Lord Bates, commented on the regional variation of median income. That is true, but the cost of living also varies. As he and I both know, the cost of living in Durham is significantly different from the cost of living in London. So although wages may be different, so too is income—and the measure relates to median incomes.

It is also worth reminding ourselves that the Child Poverty Act does not—

[Lord Bates]

That is quite an interesting point, if the noble Baroness is prepared to expand on it on the record. I think that she accepts that it is true in Durham, a city that we both love greatly, that median incomes—or, rather, average incomes—are significantly lower, by 44% according to my figures, and that the cost of living is different and lower. So in those circumstances —putting the two together by using a national measure and putting 60% of median income—you would perhaps overstate the level of child poverty in Durham. Does she accept that?

[Baroness Sherlock]

It might be worth the noble Lord and me sitting down together with the Child Poverty Act. He might find that many answers to his questions are in there. As well as giving the Secretary of State a specific duty to address income measures, because tax and benefits are in the gift of central not local government, with the exception—reprehensible in my view—of the recent move to localising council tax support, the strategy places a duty on local authorities and other players to engage in issues around child poverty, specifically because they have competence in those areas. So if the noble Lord goes back to read it, he will find that there is an awful lot more in it than he perhaps remembers. We may have to come back to that.

It is also worth coming back to the idea that it is not just about money—but it is also not not about money, a point made very clearly by my noble friend Lady Farrington. The noble Lord, Lord Bates, said that the fact that the Labour Government did not meet their target for child poverty reduction means that the measure does not work. I do not think that it means that at all. I pick up again a point that the Minister made. I fully accept that no forecast is a precise measure and no measure is precise, but one reason for keeping a long-term target of 2020 is that what really matters is direction of travel. Over time, how does the income of the poorest relate to the income of the country as a whole? On that, I am proud that our Government lifted 1.1 million children out of poverty. If I had to stand up and say that we had pushed 1 million children into poverty, I would be ashamed of that, and I am very glad that I am not in that position.

If the Government come forward with other measures, we will happily debate them. I am always open to any conversation that focuses the attention of this House and the nation on the well-being of the poorest families, and I am very happy to have the conversation when the commission reports about what that means and what the best means is to assess the impact of policies on that. However, at the moment, the Child Poverty Act is law, and it puts an obligation on the Government—a statutory duty—to address child poverty in all these areas. Unless they measure that, I simply do not see how it is possible to satisfy themselves that they have done it.

The Government’s defence has also partly been that the measure is meaningless. It may be worth reminding ourselves even of the relative income measure. The Child Poverty Action Group reminds us that a relative low-income poverty line is, typically, around £12 per family member per day for all spending needs after housing costs. It notes that many families in poverty will be far below that—because that is where the line is, and many families are way below the line. The point of having four measures is to try to understand the impact of policies such as this on all those measures. I accept that other measures are going on. I accept the point that the noble Lord, Lord Bates, made—and he has engaged with the arguments from this side of the Committee most comprehensibly—that other measures are happening and that there are time lags. However, it is impossible to ignore the fact that a Bill that sets out deliberately to cut in real terms the incomes of poor and middle-income families will do anything other than increase child poverty in real terms. That is a real increase—it is not a statistical anomaly.

I do not want to delay the Committee much more, but I remind noble Lords that the amendment simply invites the Government to report before they enact this Bill on what the impact will be on child poverty, using measures already in statute to reflect a duty that the Government already have in statute. That is all that it does; it could hardly be less radical. However, as I am interested in returning to this at a later stage, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.