Refugees: Eritrea

Lord Bates Excerpts

Tuesday 12th January 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Kinnock of Holyhead]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their assessment of the recent UN Special Rapporteur’s report on the plight of unaccompanied minors who are refugees from Eritrea.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Bates) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government recognise the plight of unaccompanied children and have carefully studied the special rapporteur’s report. Country information and guidance is based on an objective assessment of the situation in Eritrea using evidence from a range of sources, including that of the Commission of Inquiry on Human Rights in Eritrea.

[Baroness Kinnock of Holyhead (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for his response. As he has said, the UN special rapporteur’s report highlights the appalling situation of unaccompanied children from Eritrea who travel into and across Europe seeking sanctuary. The UK has a long history of supporting young victims of persecution, such as during the Second World War, so will the Government now respond to last week’s recommendation from the International Development Select Committee and agree to take at least 3,000 of the most vulnerable refugee children already in Europe, many of whom are from Eritrea?

[Lord Bates]

As my noble friend Lady Anelay has made clear, we took very seriously the UN special rapporteur’s report on the situation in Eritrea. In fact, it was the basis of the ongoing Article 8 dialogue with the EU as part of the Khartoum process. It seems that the Eritrean Government have given an undertaking to limit national service, which was the principal driver of a lot of the migration flows. On the noble Baroness’s second point, we have had an opportunity to look at the Select Committee’s report, which was published on 5 January and is very thorough. We will be responding to it in due course but it raises a number of very important issues.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, will the Minister confirm that the June 2015 report of the UN commission of inquiry said that probable crimes against humanity are being committed in Eritrea? That is why there has been such a haemorrhaging of the population, with 10% of the people—some 350,000—having fled thus far. If we do not come to terms with the root causes, will not those massive numbers of migrants continue to rise? What are we doing to pursue the recommendations in that report? Furthermore, does the Minister not recognise that when those migrants leave Eritrea, the story is not over, as the beheadings in Libya by ISIS only go to prove?

[Lord Bates]

That is absolutely right. It was a horrific report and it is not something on which the British Government are standing idly by. It is an issue on which we have engaged with the Eritrean Government through our embassy in Asmara. There was a meeting between the Foreign Minister and James Brokenshire at the margins of the EU and African Union conference in Rome in November, and that was followed up by a visit by Foreign Office and Home Office officials to assess the situation there. We continue to put great pressure on the Eritrean Government to live up to the commitments that they have made. It is only by tackling the cause of the problem, whether in Eritrea or Syria, that we can hope to stem the flow that results in the consequences that the noble Lord has highlighted.

[The Lord Bishop of St Albans]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for highlighting what is causing the problem. The UN special rapporteur has identified in this report quite a number of reasons that are driving this terrible situation and, in particular, highlighted human rights issues. A number of people have been arrested, such as the politician Mr Ali Omaro, journalists and the G15 group. Can the Minister update us on the situation of those high-profile people who have been arrested and detained?

[Lord Bates]

In response to the noble Baroness, Lady Kinnock, there was, on 15 July last year, a response from the Government, by my noble friend Lady Anelay, to that specific report. One of the problems with that report was that the rapporteur, disgracefully in our opinion, was not given access to Asmara and could not go to Eritrea to engage and find out for herself. That is why the dialogues that have been undertaken by Foreign Office officials and James Brokenshire are so important in establishing what is happening on the ground and in holding the Eritrean Government to account on the commitments that they have given.

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)]

My Lords, can I go back to the Question of my noble friend Lady Kinnock? The proposal to resettle 3,000 unaccompanied refugee children is not a new one. On 2 September, the Prime Minister said that the Government would discuss it further. On 2 December, he said that they would think about it some more. Yet here we are, a further month on. I plead with the Minister to inject some urgency into these discussions. Every day that a positive decision is not taken, more children are left vulnerable to trafficking, to the cold, to disease or even death.

[Lord Bates]

When we hear about this situation, as when the Prime Minister heard about it, the immediate instinct is to think that there are, somewhere, 3,000 unaccompanied children waiting to find placement. Of course, 3,000 is an estimate of the total number, and where they are in the system is clearly a matter to be defined. We think that the way to do that is through the Dublin regulations and by making sure that they are properly recorded when they arrive in the UK. It is worth noting that the conclusion to that report said:

“We strongly commend DFID for setting an exemplary standard in its commitment to funding humanitarian assistance to address the Syrian crisis”.

That is part of the solution, but there is more to be done, and the Prime Minister will make an announcement on his review when he has examined all the facts.

[Baroness Hamwee (LD)]

My Lords, do the Government recognise that some of the factors identified in the special rapporteur’s report—fear of forced conscription; fear of facing the same ordeal as their parents, including imprisonment on the basis of religious affiliation; hopelessness, and so on—are push factors, which are different from the pull factors that are often talked about by the Home Secretary? Will he accept that if the Government recognised some of the push factors at play, tragedies might be avoided, such as that which happened a few days ago, when a young boy died trying to cross the channel to join his sister in the UK, even though I am advised that he would have been entitled to have his case considered here under Dublin III?

[Lord Bates]

It is right to point to that. We have seen an increase from 2012, when 80 unaccompanied asylum-seeking children from Eritrea came to the UK, to last year, when 460 came. The noble Baroness rightly identifies that the point behind that is the arbitrary nature of national service. The Government have given a commitment that that will now be limited to 18 months. The second factor which we weighed in their favour was the fact that they required an exit visa that required them to have completed national service before they could leave the country. That is why we continue to take very seriously applications for asylum from that country, particularly from unaccompanied asylum-seeking children.

Immigration Bill

Lord Bates Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd December 2015 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Bates]

That the Bill be now read a second time.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Bates) (Con)]

My Lords, our country is diverse, democratic, peaceful and economically successful. We are all rightly proud of it. We want to protect it but it is also no surprise that we are a country experiencing positive net migration, attracting the brightest and the best, those seeking refuge and those in search of a better life. As more people seek to come here and as the global landscape continues to change, we must ensure that the UK remains a country with fair and safe workplaces, access to adequate housing, quality public services and security against changing threats.

Today, we start to debate the Immigration Bill. Immigration legislation is always a contentious subject and I know that we will take great care exploring the detail. However, this Bill has the interests of the country as a whole at its heart. Tackling illegal immigration builds social cohesion, takes pressure off public services and creates the space, politically, socially and economically to help those migrants in need, as we are now doing with refugees from Syria.

One of the principal aims of this Bill is to implement a manifesto pledge to crack down on those individuals who exploit workers in our country and to support working people. The national living wage, welfare reforms and economic growth are just part of our commitment to support workers. In the last quarter, 73.7% of people aged 16 to 64 were in work, the highest employment rate since comparable records began in 1971. However, in the shadows of our economy there are some abuses and exploitation that we must tackle. Some of the victims are migrants, but the criminals exploiting the vulnerable have no regard for their immigration status. We have laws to tackle these abuses and we have agencies to enforce these laws, but we all agree that we could do better. There are multiple enforcement bodies for employment legislation, each with a good reputation and each working well, but they are fragmented, have different lines of accountability and do not always share intelligence. Organised criminals find it too easy to get away with deliberate exploitation of workers. That is why the first thing the Immigration Bill will do is to bring tougher and better co-ordination of enforcement in this field.

Some have said that the Bill will deter victims of labour market abuses from stepping forward and exposing criminals. We believe that nothing could be further from the truth. Illegal workers and the victims of exploitation are not necessarily the same people. Illegal workers, in most cases, have come to the UK for personal economic gain, circumventing our existing immigration laws. The current offences of entering the UK illegally and breaching immigration conditions date from 1971, but equivalent offences predate even that. Where there are victims, the system is loaded with safeguards. The Modern Slavery Act provides a statutory defence for victims of exploitation. The Crown Prosecution Service and the courts will provide the necessary oversight and support for the enforcement agencies, which will always seek a fair and proportionate outcome.

The Immigration Act 2014 broke new ground on regulating migrant access to services. This House gave it careful scrutiny to ensure that the vulnerable were protected, but also to ensure that the UK remained an attractive destination for international students and investors. We agreed to the creation of the immigration health charge, and to controls on access to bank accounts, driving licences and housing. The right to rent scheme drew considerable debate but was ultimately accepted with additional safeguards and a commitment to a careful, phased implementation. The Government recently published our evaluation of the first phase of that implementation, which I am sure we will debate in detail, but I am confident that the fears of two years ago have not materialised. We worried that international students would not able to secure a home, that the vulnerable would be rendered homeless and that landlords would not understand the documentation; we worried about discrimination. These concerns have been, and continue to be, taken seriously and remain the focus of our efforts to ensure that problems of this nature do not arise as we roll the scheme out across England and then the rest of the UK.

The new reforms to bank accounts and driving licences will further ensure that those who are here unlawfully cannot take advantage of our generous services. We want to stop illegal migrants driving on our roads and to deny them the use of bank accounts. Illegal immigration has a detrimental impact on multiple parts of society, from businesses who are undercut by unscrupulous employers paying low wages to illegal workers, to the threat that can be posed to social cohesion within local communities. Although immigration officers already have existing powers to deal with illegal immigration, we can and must go further. That is why we are providing a basis for public authorities to share documents they hold that may assist the Government in controlling immigration. In doing so, we are simultaneously supporting a collaborative approach to tackling illegal immigration: a vital part of the Government’s objectives. Existing partnerships between immigration enforcement and the police have led to over 3,600 people being removed from the UK, so the benefit of collaborative working is clear. This must be strengthened, which is why we will also ensure that our immigration enforcement warrants are aligned with those of the police. Through this Bill, we will also fulfil the Government’s manifesto commitment to satellite-tag foreign national offenders when they are released on immigration bail, so that we know their whereabouts and can improve public protection.

Another method of combating illegal immigration is to accelerate the removal of those who no longer have the right to be in the UK. Under the 2014 Act, the introduction of the “deport now, appeal later” scheme has had a beneficial operational effect, allowing us to deport hundreds of foreign criminals before they appeal. This is why, in our manifesto, the Government committed to extending this to cover all human rights cases, except asylum claims. I reassure the House that this measure will only be used when requiring someone to appeal from overseas will not cause serious or irreversible harm, or otherwise breach their human rights. The best interests of any children affected will remain a primary consideration for the Home Office before making a decision to exercise this power. We are therefore confident that the extension of this scheme is a proportionate response to maintaining effective immigration control, a position supported by the Court of Appeal’s recent ruling that the Government are generally entitled to proceed on the basis that out-of-country appeals are a fair and effective remedy.

This House will agree that supporting asylum seekers, and ensuring we offer protection to the most vulnerable, is a cornerstone of our democratic and humanitarian society, particularly given recent events. However, the Government believe that it is right to demonstrate our commitment to those who are in search of humanitarian assistance by delivering on our obligation to spend the targeted 0.7% on international aid. We are the only major economy to do that. We are also committed to supporting those affected by the crisis in Syria by delivering £1.1 billion to that region: several multiples of the required share. However, it is not justifiable—or it is difficult to justify—that we spend millions of pounds supporting failed asylum seekers; individuals who have had their claims refused and exhausted their appeal rights, and who should leave the UK where there is no obstacle preventing them. That is why this Government are taking firm action to restrict such support to failed asylum seekers who are destitute and face genuine obstacles to leaving this country.

I can assure your Lordships that there will continue to be safeguards to protect children. In addition to the continued Home Office support that I have just referred to, local authorities will remain able to support families without immigration status who would otherwise be destitute. Some have voiced their concerns that this will simply result in the burdens being transferred to local authorities and the third sector. This is not the intention or the reality. Local authorities do not have a general obligation to accommodate illegal migrants who intentionally make themselves destitute by refusing to leave the UK. Instead, those who do not qualify for Home Office support can, and should, leave the UK and we will work closely with local authorities to encourage and enable them to do so.

This Government have also taken positive steps to relieve some of the burdens which local authorities face to ensure that their finite resources are used effectively. Currently, the framework under which local authorities can support migrants without immigration status is complex and burdensome to administer. This is inefficient and a waste of taxpayers’ money, so the Bill will simplify this process while ensuring that those genuinely in need of support continue to receive it. I appreciate that many in your Lordships’ House will again be concerned about the impact on children, but I assure the House that local authorities will continue to support children and their families to safeguard and promote the child’s welfare.

A further significant burden that local authorities face is the requirement to pay international tuition fees for adult migrant care leavers, which generally range from £12,000 to £15,000 per year but can be as much as £30,000 per year. This Government are not trying to deny these adult migrants access to a university education but the current position is unfair to other migrants and British citizens, who must qualify under regulations for student loans. So to ensure greater consistency and fairness, the Bill will relieve local authorities of the obligation to pay these fees. Finally, we must make sure that we avoid a repeat of the situation that occurred this summer, where a small number of local authorities incurred substantial financial pressure to care for an unexpected number of unaccompanied asylum-seeking children. We are therefore taking steps to encourage other local authorities to voluntarily accept responsibility for such children while simultaneously making sure that we have the required powers, through the Bill, to transfer responsibility for unaccompanied asylum-seeking children between local authorities.

While illegal immigration poses a significant problem for the UK, it is not the only area which requires greater control. We must ensure that we know who is coming into and leaving the UK, irrespective of whether they are lawfully here or not. A lack of control over our borders poses a significant risk to our national security—a risk we cannot afford to take. So the Bill contains measures to ensure that airlines always present passengers to immigration control, and that the Government automatically apply UN and EU travel bans to stop dangerous individuals coming to our country.

Our manifesto committed to requiring all public sector workers in customer-facing roles to speak fluent English. Some have questioned whether there is a need for this measure. First, it is important to stress that many professions within the public sector already require standards of spoken English and that this measure simply brings the rest into line with the forerunners. I am sure we can all agree that it is essential that all members of the public who need to access public services can understand the information provided to them and be confident of their needs being understood. Not only is the provision important for that purpose but it contributes helpfully to another manifesto commitment, to promote British values within society, and will simultaneously increase the efficiency and effectiveness of public services funded by the taxpayer.

Finally, many businesses in the UK are now choosing to hire overseas workers. This has the knock-on effect of denying our resident workforce the opportunity to secure employment and develop its skills to fill existing shortages. The Government have taken positive steps to reduce unemployment in the UK. For example, in the last quarter, youth unemployment stood at 653,000, down 83,000 from the previous year. But more is needed. That is why the Bill introduces a charge for employers recruiting from outside the European Economic Area, with the money raised helping to train resident workers and fund apprenticeships in the UK.

There are many speakers down for this debate with immense personal experience in this area, and as always I assure them that the Government will listen very carefully to their contributions and concerns today and of course, as the Bill progresses, to their suggestions for improvements. I am sure we all want to see the continued prosperity of our great nation. We must ensure we continue to welcome the brightest and the best migrants to the UK while also continuing to provide humanitarian relief to those who need it most. However, an inevitable requirement for that continued prosperity is to ensure that the generous and invaluable services the UK provides are safeguarded for those who have a right to be here, as well as for the most vulnerable in our society and those requiring our international humanitarian protection. That is the balance the Bill achieves and I commend it to the House.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Bates]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who participated in this debate. It has been a passionate debate, enhanced by the level of first-hand experience and knowledge that noble Lords have in dealing with these very difficult issues.

I will start with an issue that came up quite a few times. The noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, and a number of other noble Lords mentioned the process by which we have got here, so I will deal with that before I go on to policy. The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Southwark also touched on this. The question was asked: on what basis of evidence are we acting here? What is the basis on which we are legislating? Of course, we have the evidence from the Immigration Act 2014, which the coalition Government took through the House. A lot of the proposals in this Immigration Bill are an extension of areas covered in that Act. We have had the opportunity to see how that has worked in practice over the past couple of years.

We have also, in the process of putting this together, outlined in the briefing pack the draft codes of practice. We have issued the Bill’s European Convention on Human Rights and Delegated Powers memoranda, along with policy equality statements. We talked technically about pre-legislative scrutiny, and there were two days of evidence-gathering in the other place before Committee formally started. Some 48 representations were made to the Public Bill Committee on the legislation in another place, which were taken into account during Committee, which lasted for five and a half days. There were some 35 Divisions. I am not saying that it is always a contentious issue or that we anticipate that it will be, but there was a level of rigour in the scrutiny in the other place that should give us some confidence as we approach this.

We have also seen, in the time since we started the process, the Court of Appeal’s ruling on out-of-country appeals, and the Government’s evaluation of the right to rent scheme, which was published in October—I thank the noble Lord, Lord Best, for contributing to this. The Ewins report on domestic workers, which I know the noble Lords, Lord Hylton and Lord Alton, will want to discuss further, was published just before Christmas. The report of the Independent Chief Inspector of Borders and Immigration on illegal working and immigration removals has just been published. The Shaw report on immigration and detention, which I know is of significant concern, will be published in early January—certainly by the time we reach Committee.

There will also be a Migration Advisory Committee report on the operation of tier 2, in addition to the Home Affairs Select Committee report. Extensive consultations have taken place, including the government consultation on tackling exploitation in the labour market, which we have yet to respond to but which is there in the briefing pack. The Government’s response to the consultation on reforming support for failed asylum seekers and other illegal migrants is another basis for our legislation. There is also the government consultation on draft language requirements for the public sector workers’ code of practice. On the specific point about signing, there is no question that signing would not be covered under this but there is a consultation on that. I go to that length to show that process is very important. It was important, too, for the Modern Slavery Act. I want to put on record that there has been a significant amount of evidence gathering to build the case for the actions we propose here.

Turning to the policy, one thing we tend to be in general agreement about is that there is an issue with illegal immigration into the country. Lots of noble Lords prefaced their remarks by recognising that. Indeed, my noble friends Lord Horam, Lord Sherbourne, Lord Hamilton and Lord Balfe, and the noble Lord, Lord Green, all pointed to the fact that this was an issue of significant public concern. Certainly, my noble friends Lord Horam, Lord Balfe and Lord Hamilton also mentioned that this was something central to the Conservative Party manifesto—and the government manifesto, in that we announced our intention to legislate on it in the Queen’s Speech. In fact, a number of the areas we are dealing with in this Immigration Bill were also subjects in the Labour and Liberal Democrat manifestos. There is an agreement at a high level that there is a problem.

We have categories of people here. We have people who come here through the right of free movement in the European Union. We have issues with that which are being taken on and discussed with our European colleagues at present. We also have the plight of many people suffering around the world. I was very moved by the words of the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, and others who spoke of the plight of those refugees. None of us, at this time in particular when we remember another refugee in a foreign land fleeing persecution, should be immune to acknowledging the tremendous pain and anguish that many people face in these countries. The noble Earl said “there but for the grace of God go I”, and that should challenge us with a sense of humility but also the deep desire to ensure that we treat people with the dignity and humanity that my noble friend Lord Sherbourne invited us to put on the record. People who come to this country in search of help enter our asylum system. All Governments —coalition and Labour—have a proud track record of offering sanctuary to those people fleeing in fear of persecution.

Then there are those people who circumvent the immigration procedures and are found not to be genuine asylum seekers when their claim is tested through the appeals process and tribunal service. The question then is: what do we do? Therein comes a debate. I am very conscious of the hour and the fact that officials have been very busy in providing answers to 64 questions. It may be better if I put some of the substantive answers to those questions in writing to colleagues, ensuring that they have them before the beginning of our first week back on 11 January. All the answers are here. Of course, 11 January is also the date when the Government must table the amendments they intend to bring forward for consideration on 18 January.

I was grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, for mentioning the timing. We listened very carefully, as we always do, when we attended the Cross-Bench Peers to talk about this issue; there was concern, and we have reacted to that. My noble friend Lord Taylor has responded to that from the Government Whips’ Office and has been able to secure for us additional time, which I think will be appreciated by all, so that people can reflect upon this Second Reading debate as well.

I shall deal with some of the particular points that were raised. The noble Lords, Lord Rosser and Lord Alton, asked about the impact of the Bill. We have published six separate financial impact assessments on various parts of the Bill, as well as a range of equality assessments. The recent report by the Chief Inspector of Borders and Immigration commented on the Government’s success in our aim of year-on-year increases in confirmed voluntary departures every year since 2012-13.

On border security, the noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Saltaire, asked a specific question about private helipads. The Counter-Terrorism and Security Act 2015 included stronger legislative provisions and protection for notification in advance of people arriving on private airstrips, and we would certainly expect an equality of scrutiny for all people coming into this country.

The issue of appeals was raised by the noble Lords, Lord Dubs and Lord Roberts, the noble Baronesses, Lady Ludford, Lady Kennedy of The Shaws and Lady Lister, among others. Appealing from outside the UK does not mean that appeals are less likely to succeed. Internal Home Office statistics for the past five years to July 2015 show that 38% of entry clearance appeals succeeded. Some 42% of appeals succeeded in 2015 in the comparable in-country category of managed migration appeals. Both these categories of appeal could involve human rights claims.

On the point about family reunion, which was raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, and the noble Lords, Lord Hylton and Lord Dubs, we recognise that families may become fragmented because of the nature of conflict and persecution, and the speed and manner in which those seeking asylum often flee their country of origin. Our policy allows the immediate family members of a person granted refugee leave or humanitarian protection in the UK, their spouse or partner and children under the age of 18 who formed part of the family unit before the sponsor fled the country, to reunite with them. We have granted over 21,000 family reunion visas over the past five years, 2010-14. Numbers are likely to increase over the next five years in line with the number of applications that are received.

With regard to the points raised about landlords by the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, the noble Baronesses, Lady Kennedy, Lady Lister, Lady Sheehan and Lady Janke, I have acknowledged the work done by the noble Lord, Lord Best. The Government gave careful consideration to concerns about potential race discrimination when establishing the right to rent scheme. These concerns are understandable, and the right to rent checks were carefully crafted in consultation with bodies representing landlords, agents, local authorities and housing charities before the scheme was rolled out. A wide range of documents can be provided to give evidence of the right to rent. The Government recognise the need to be flexible so as not to disadvantage, for example, the minority of British citizens who do not hold a passport.

On detention, I have given an undertaking that Stephen Shaw’s review, which I know is eagerly awaited, will be published before we reach the relevant stage in Committee, while our response will be published before the clause on immigration bail is debated. While there is no fixed time limit to immigration detention—in fact, that is a matter that was discussed in previous legislation—there are well-established principles set out in case law, known as the Hardial Singh principles, which state that for detention under immigration powers to be lawful there must be,

“a realistic prospect of removal within a reasonable timescale … Detention must be used sparingly, and for the shortest period necessary”.

An arbitrary time limit would potentially allow criminals and non-compliant individuals to play the system, as it were, which was a point raised by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Brown of Eaton-under-Heywood.

At that point, I shall draw my remarks to a conclusion.

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom]

I know that everybody wants to get off for Christmas, but I would be very grateful if the Minister would write to me on EU citizens claiming national insurance and how that relates to net immigration figures.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Bates]

I am very happy to do that. A number of noble Lords asked me to write to them on various technical aspects and I will do that. That letter will be sent out on 11 January, a week ahead of Committee stage.

My noble friend has raised one of the elements which is a problem. It is that we do not fully understand the scale of the problem. We deal with estimates. Even when the ONS undertakes forecasts, they are based on estimates. With effect from April, there will be exit checks and therefore we will know who is coming into the country and who is leaving the country and will be able to deduce by fact how many overstayers or illegal migrants there are.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool]

I realise that we are coming to a conclusion, but I think the Minister would agree that the theme that has run through the debate in your Lordships’ House today has been about destitution, deliberately making people destitute and the way that links into the landmark legislation last year on modern-day slavery and human trafficking. Before he concludes, will the Minister say a word about that? I do not think it should be left to a letter.

[Lord Bates]

The Bill does not represent a threat of destitution. We are simply making it clear that failed asylum-seeker families and other illegal migrants cannot expect automatically to be in receipt of Home Office and local authority support in circumstances where they could and should leave the UK. We need a better basis of incentives and possible sanctions on which, together with local authorities, to engage with these families in a process that secures more returns. We believe that the Immigration Bill will deliver that. I do not expect that to satisfy the noble Lord because I know he takes a great interest in this area, rightly so, and speaks up for those in need. We are not unmoved by that. As with previous Bills, in Committee we will work together constructively, with the general recognition that there is a problem and that the Government have received a mandate from the electorate to do something about it, to ensure that that mandate is delivered in a way which gets to the people we want to tackle and protects those who are in need of our protection. That is the challenge of the Bill. It has been eloquently set out by contributions to this Second Reading debate and I am sure it will be returned to in the new year as we go through the Bill methodically in Committee.

Bill read a second time and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 (Temporary Class Drug) (No. 3) Order 2015

Lord Bates Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd December 2015 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Bates]

That the order laid before the House on 25 November be approved.

Relevant document: 12th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Bates) (Con)]

My Lords, the order came into force on 27 November, two days after it was laid before Parliament.

I put on record our thanks to the Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs for its advice, which has informed the order we are considering today. Its numerous risk assessments over the last six years or so on a range of new psychoactive substances, so misleadingly referred to as “legal highs”, has been the cornerstone of our work to date to ban 500 of the most harmful of these substances under the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971.

Subject to Parliament’s will, the Psychoactive Substances Bill will be enacted in the new year. As I informed the House when we debated the Bill before the Summer Recess, the Misuse of Drugs Act will continue to sit at the apex of the UK’s drug legislation, ensuring we have the most robust controls in place for the most harmful drugs, whether or not they are categorised as new psychoactive substances.

The order relates to methiopropamine, commonly known as MPA—I shall refer to it as MPA for the remainder of this address—as well as its simple derivatives. The effect of the order is to make these drugs subject to temporary control under Section 2A of the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971, thereby making it an offence to produce, import, export, supply or offer to supply these drugs. As with all previous TCDOs, personal possession will not be criminalised. The controls will last up to 12 months while the ACMD considers whether these drugs should be made subject to a permanent ban. The order is already having the desired effect. We are aware that since it came into force, websites marketing MPA have withdrawn it from sale.

It may assist if I now set out the evidence put forward by the ACMD surrounding MPA. The council reports that MPA has recently emerged as a replacement drug for the methylphenidate-based compounds also currently subject to temporary control. While MPA has been monitored by the ACMD, hard evidence of it being injected has only recently surfaced.

MPA is a stimulant psychoactive substance which is similar in structure to other drugs in that class and has effects such as stimulation, alertness and an increase of energy and focus. Side effects reported include abnormally fast heart rates, anxiety, panic attacks, perspiration, headaches, nausea, difficulty breathing and vomiting. As with all injecting drugs, there is also a potential high risk of bacterial infection and local tissue damage.

The National Programme on Substance Abuse Deaths reported 30 cases where MPA was found in post-mortem toxicology between 2012 and 2015. In 22 of these, MPA was implicated in the cause of death. As such, on 18 November the ACMD recommended that urgent action should be taken due to the proliferation in use and an increasing number of associated deaths and harms related to MPA.

For all these reasons, my honourable friend the Policing, Crime and Criminal Justice and Victims Minister accepted the advisory council’s advice that MPA and its simple derivatives should be subject to the order that has been in force across the UK since 27 November. It enables UK law enforcement to take action against traffickers and suppliers of the new temporary class drugs. The order has given enforcement agencies the requisite powers to disrupt the sale of MPA both online and in local head shops. The order has also sent out a clear message to the public, especially to young people, that these drugs and the brand names associated with them carry serious health risks.

We know that the law change cannot on its own deter all those inclined to use or experiment with these drugs. However, we expect the order to continue to have a notable impact on their availability and, in turn, on demand for these drugs, as we saw with other banned substances.

Parliament’s approval of the order will ensure that it remains in force to reduce the threat to the public posed by these temporary class drugs, for up to 12 months. Together with the Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs, we will consider the case for placing MPA under permanent control under the 1971 Act. I commend the order to the House and beg to move.

[Baroness Hamwee (LD)]

My Lords, the House will be grateful to the Minister for managing, just about, to get through that presentation. I have one question and one request for him. My question is about the progress of the Psychoactive Substances Bill. He mentioned that it would be enacted in the new year but it seems to have become a bit stranded in the House of Commons, and I wonder whether he has any more detail than that.

My request relates to a completely different matter. It comes from a conversation with colleagues just outside the Chamber during the previous debate. Next time the Minister does one of his amazing walks for charity, can he tell us, as we would like to support him? I do not know whether he is going to the North Pole or the South Pole over Christmas. I prefer to think of him sitting by a fire with a big box of chocolates but I do not think that is quite his style. However, we are so impressed by what he does during recesses, when most of us slob about, that we would at least like to support him in that way.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab)]

My Lords, I support the order before the House. As the noble Lord, Lord Bates, said, it would be in effect for a maximum of 12 months, by which time a decision would be made on whether MPA should be subject to a permanent ban. I shall not attempt to pronounce the name in full but will stick with the abbreviation. I am sure that the noble Lord will come back on the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Colwyn.

I echo the comments of the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, in respect of the work, and the walks, that the noble Lord does in the recesses. I will leave it there.

[Lord Bates]

I am very grateful. I should perhaps explain to the House that the reason for my slight struggle was that I was not only trying to pronounce those words but, at the same time, was feeling the symptoms that I was reading out of an abnormally fast heart rate, anxiety, a panic attack, perspiration, headaches and nausea. My inability to pronounce the medical terms was due to my having to pause slightly to compose myself. I am grateful for the patience of the House.

I shall deal with where we are with the Psychoactive Substances Bill. We expect the Bill to reach its Commons Report stage and Third Reading early in the new year, and I hope noble Lords’ consideration of Commons amendments will follow shortly after that. Explanatory notes on the Commons amendments will be published in the usual way once the Bill leaves the Commons. The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, and the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, among others, will have seen letters from the Policing Minister detailing the government amendments made at the Commons Committee stage.

Schedule 1 to the Bill lists substances exempted from the scope of the Bill. Medicinal products as defined by the Human Medicines Regulations 2012 are included in that list. The definition of medical products, as in regulation, includes herbal medicines. Therefore, herbal medicines covered by the regulations are excluded from the scope of that Bill. I hope that offers some reassurance to my noble friend Lord Colwyn and clarifies the communication that I had with the noble Lord, Lord Hunt.

The Chief Whip is here, so I need to be on my best behaviour, but let me just say that I have no plans to engage in further walks over the Christmas period. I will be back on duty for the Immigration Bill on 11 January as required. However, I am very grateful for the kind words that have been said. We heard about the tremendous work being done by many charitable bodies this Christmas. I was thinking in particular of the Red Cross walk this year, which managed to raise more than £90,000 for its work in China and the UK. It is a tremendous privilege for us all, I know, to do anything that we can to support the many people who at times such as this are helping and caring for those in greatest need in our country and on our planet.

Finally, the Bill will go through Report and Third Reading early in the new year. That completes the business before us and I commend the order to the House. I join others in wishing noble Lords on all sides of the House a very merry Christmas.

Motion agreed.

Syrian Refugees

Lord Bates Excerpts

Thursday 17th December 2015 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Bates) (Con)]

My Lords, we have committed to resettling 20,000 refugees during this Parliament. As part of this, the Prime Minister gave a further commitment in September to resettle 1,000 Syrian refugees by Christmas. With the arrival of two further charter flights yesterday, into Belfast and Stanstead, this target has now been met and exceeded.

[Lord Roberts of Llandudno (LD)]

I thank the Minister for his reply. However, we have been shocked this morning to hear of the situation in Sudan and Nigeria, and of the hundreds of thousands of children who are in need there. Is not there something we can do, perhaps by responding to Save the Children’s request and admitting 3,000 unaccompanied refugee children and giving them some hope? I ask the Minister to seriously consider how we could respond positively to this. We cannot respond to the situation in Sudan and Nigeria, but we can respond to the situation on our doorstep.

[Lord Bates]

The programme we are talking about is the Syrian vulnerable person relocation scheme. Of course, there are other schemes, such as Mandate and Gateway, which are not country specific and therefore people would be eligible to apply through that route. The noble Lord has been consistent in drawing attention to this. Under the previous Government, he would chide us that the Syrian vulnerable person scheme was too little, dealing with only 160 people in the first year. But in the past three months we have added another 1,000 to that. That is something to be proud of, as is our committing to a further 20,000 by the end of the Parliament, and the fact that we are the second largest cash donor. There is always more that can be done, but I think that we can hold our heads up high, particularly at this time of year.

[The Earl of Sandwich (CB)]

My Lords, many local councils have made generous offers to receive Syrian refugees. Has the Home Office considered publishing the figures so that councils can encourage one another to welcome and receive these refugees? It seems to me that there is a lack of information between the councils, and this should be put right.

[Lord Bates]

Richard Harrington, my colleague in the Home Office, is responsible for that and is working with the more than 50 councils that have come forward. Because these are sensitive issues, councils have asked that they choose whether to disclose this information themselves; we do not disclose it on their behalf. On looking into this, there is one issue that has come up. The basis on which people come into this country is that they are given five years leave to remain on international humanitarian assistance. A lot of the accommodation that is provided is short term. The idea is, of course, that we want the people coming in to find work and their children to find schools and, because they are in high need, to have access to medical support. That is one reason why it is slightly more difficult to ensure that the right accommodation comes forward. However, the evidence of the past few months, with over 1,000 refugees arriving here, shows that that is beginning to work.

[Baroness Warsi (Con)]

Are there any specific criteria that the Government use, over and above the recognition of these individuals as refugees, in the selection of the people arriving in the United Kingdom? While I am always cautious of trying to prioritise one set of refugees over others, would the Government consider, in the light of the United Kingdom’s expertise in preventing sexual violence in conflict, whether there is any way we could take in men and women who were subjected to sexual violence before they fled Syria?

[Lord Bates]

When we set up this scheme we chose, unlike some other countries, to work through the UNHCR. We set certain criteria as to the type of people we regarded as most vulnerable, including those in acute need of medical attention that they could not get locally, women and girls who were vulnerable, and victims of torture or abuse. The UNHCR identifies those people and brings them in. That is one of the great strengths of our scheme—it meets the very issue that my noble friend is right to raise.

[The Lord Bishop of St Albans]

My Lords, I congratulate the Government on the first 1,000 refugees being brought in. I hope that this will continue apace. On the Question of the noble Lord, Lord Roberts, which draws on the experience of Canada, since 1979 the Canada private sponsorship programme has enabled 200,000 refugees to be settled in that country. Privately sponsored refugees are likely to make up around 40% of those coming in over the forthcoming months. It is a good example of big society, whereby churches and community groups are given responsibility for working with resettlement programmes. Have Her Majesty’s Government looked into the experience of Canada, and are they considering developing similar programmes in the UK based on that good experience?

[Lord Bates]

We have looked at that programme, which is impressive but unlike ours is not focused on those in greatest need. We are having discussions at present: the Home Secretary is meeting with NGOs and we are talking to them and to church groups and faith groups about setting up a similar community sponsorship scheme, but perhaps not for people in urgent need of attention. That might not be appropriate, as it could not give the care they need. However, going forward, as the scheme expands, we would want to follow that up.

[Baroness Hamwee (LD)]

The Minister will be aware that there are many people in this country of Syrian and Iraqi origin, who are settled and pay tax here, who are desperate—I do not think that is putting it too highly—to bring in their own family members from the affected countries and care for them. Are the Government considering relaxing the restrictive rules on family visas to allow these people to play their part in helping their own families and the whole situation?

[Lord Bates]

We are not looking at that particular point—we are quite strict on that. Visas are restricted to spouses and dependent children under the age of 18; we will look sympathetically at exceptional cases involving dependent relatives. One of the reasons why the Syrian vulnerable persons scheme is so appropriate is that the UNHCR looks at trying to bring the whole family group to the UK, rather than just one member of it. Therefore, the chances of the situation mentioned by the noble Baroness arising will hopefully be less in the future.

European Union: Schengen Agreement

Lord Bates Excerpts

Tuesday 15th December 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they will encourage the European Union to suspend the Schengen arrangements and reinstate border controls between member states.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Bates) (Con)]

My Lords, the reintroduction of border controls within the Schengen area is ultimately a decision for the Schengen states themselves. However, given the possible security threats, the Government have a strong interest in ensuring that Schengen states effectively combat illegal transit into and across their borders.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful for that Answer. Does my noble friend agree that a Government’s first duty is to protect the security and well-being of their people? Given that the European Union has failed to police both its external and internal borders, is it not the duty of the Prime Minister to regain control of Britain’s borders?

[Lord Bates]

Of course, my noble friend is absolutely right, and we have control of those borders because, in the Maastricht treaty, as he and I know, Sir John Major managed to negotiate an opt-out from the Schengen area. We retain strong control over our borders, which is quite essential. We look at the situation happening in Europe at present and we are not dispassionate, because the issues and security concerns that we have about Europe ultimately come towards us—so we need to work with our EU partners. We believe that the type of discussion that they are now having about strengthening the external border to the EU is absolutely right and timely.

[Baroness Ludford (LD)]

Does the Minister agree that any crowing over Schengen difficulties is misplaced and shooting ourselves in the foot, given the huge benefits to UK citizens and businesses that Schengen confers in the ease of travel and trade? What are the Government doing to help to maintain the integrity and security of Schengen through full participation in the Schengen Information System and helping to reinforce its external borders?

[Lord Bates]

The noble Baroness is absolutely right, and there is absolutely no crowing whatever. What we want is the security of those internal and external borders. We are joining the Schengen Information System II, which is very important for sharing information. We are providing support to FRONTEX and also providing support to the European asylum support officers, who operate in hotspots around Italy, Greece and Bulgaria. So we are not passive or crowing—we are actively working with our EU partners to ensure that this problem is addressed.

[Lord Hain (Lab)]

My Lords, I apologise for my premature enthusiasm earlier—bad habits brought from down the Corridor. If Schengen were suspended, why would the French feel any obligation to maintain our border in Calais?

[Lord Bates]

That is a good question. I wish the noble Lord had continued a little further in his first intervention and then I might have heard it before. The important point is that the juxtaposed controls which we have with Belgium at Coquelles and also at Calais are essential partnerships. It is very important that they are maintained. We do not believe that Schengen is in danger of suspension at present. There may be members of it, such as Greece, which are causing concern and certain members which are exercising their rights under Article 23 to suspend the operation of those borders for a time. However, it would have implications for us, and that is why we are following it very closely and will offer every support we can to our EU partners.

[Lord Hylton (CB)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that fences and border controls provide no solutions? Surely men, women and children already in Europe deserve decent treatment. While camps may sometimes be necessary for purposes of assessment, will the Government ensure that the aim is always settlement or return home so that people do not rot in bad conditions?

[Lord Bates]

That is a very important point. One of the things that we have done in supporting Greece is to provide DfID aid to ensure that the centres where people’s applications are processed have the type of decent humanitarian care which Europe and this country have a proud record in delivering.

[Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab)]

My Lords, to get to the crux of the matter, is it not obvious to everyone, including government Ministers, that, given what happened in Paris, the arrests in Belgium, Switzerland and elsewhere and the influx of refugees through the borders of Europe, the ability to move through 26 European countries with no scrutiny at the border is a boon to terrorists? Notwithstanding the fact that we are not in Schengen, the fact that if you come inside the borders of Greece you can travel right across Europe to the coast of Belgium and northern France puts immense pressure on our borders. Should the Government not be doing something to have those borders restored for our own sake, if not for the European Union’s sake?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Bates]

They need to come forward with some answers. The European Commission has today produced some proposals on strengthening the borders. The noble Lord is right to say that this is not something we can walk away from but is something that impacts on us. It is also the reason why we need to tackle the situation at the border, strengthen our EU borders and, given that we know what the cause of this is, take action in Syria with the international community to ensure that this situation is resolved and the cause of this influx is somehow altered.

[Lord Lawson of Blaby (Con)]

My Lords, would my noble friend, whom I greatly respect, like to correct his Answer to my noble friend Lord Forsyth—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Lawson of Blaby]

Would my noble friend, whom I greatly respect, like to correct his Answer to my noble friend Lord Forsyth? In answering, he said that we had control of our borders. So far as the European Union is concerned, we do not. Even though we are not in Schengen, we do not have control of our borders.

[Lord Bates]

I was making the point that our borders are controlled in the sense that the ability to travel freely across borders in the European Union by the production of an ID card does not apply to us. In Schengen, we retain our full checks on people who are coming into this country and, since April this year, on people leaving this country as well. I believe that that means we have control of our borders.

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

My Lords, given that Schengen and the euro have proved such painful failures, what do Her Majesty’s Government see as the point of the European Union itself? Would we miss it if it collapsed and we went back to friendly collaboration and free trade between the democracies of Europe? Has the EU not become just a very expensive emperor without clothes?

[Lord Bates]

The benefits to this country will be determined by the people in a referendum in due course, but in this respect they are self-evident: we cannot deal with the migrant crisis that is coming into our country without working very closely with our EU partners and, given that seven out of 10 of our principal trading partners are within the EU, we need to be able to exchange goods and services in an efficient way. With regard to the type of model that the noble Lord is perhaps advocating, he should perhaps be aware that while we are not in the Schengen area, Norway, Switzerland, Lichtenstein and Iceland, in the European Economic Area, are part of Schengen, and therefore there is free movement.

Higher Education: Overseas Students

Lord Bates Excerpts

Thursday 10th December 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Clement-Jones]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what recent assessment they have made of the impact on higher education institutions of their policy on visas for overseas students, particularly in respect of the visa refusal thresholds set for them.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Bates) (Con)]

My Lords, we have an excellent offer for international students who wish to study at our world-leading institutions and there remains no limit on the number who can do so. The visa refusal threshold incentivises institutions to conduct checks to ensure that they are offering places to genuine students.

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, the new and very subjective credibility test, combined with the lowering to 10% of the refusal threshold, has caused huge difficulties for universities—I hope the Minister is aware of that—and has led to it becoming virtually impossible for them to offer places to students from Nigeria and Pakistan, to name but two countries. Is the Home Office aware of these difficulties caused to universities? It appears like racial discrimination to many of these students. Can he confirm that there is absolutely no intention of lowering the threshold to 5%?

[Lord Bates]

We changed the threshold from 20% down to 10% because it mirrors the national scheme, whereby we grant 90% of visas and 10% are refused. Most universities have way below 10%. They have 1%, 2%, 3%—under 5%—and therefore when somebody triggers that threshold of 10% we think it is right to ask some questions about the rigour and robustness of their application procedures. The reality is that for most universities we see increasing numbers of students—up 31% for the Russell group, up 17% for all universities—so that seems to suggest that it is not quite the issue that the noble Lord has presented.

[Lord Howell of Guildford (Con)]

Would my noble friend agree that as most Commonwealth countries let our students in free, it might be time to reintroduce for students the Commonwealth youth visa, the post-study work visa and flexible, reciprocal arrangements with Australia, New Zealand and Canada, which these countries would clearly welcome?

[Lord Bates]

The noble Lord makes an interesting suggestion about our relations with the Commonwealth. Of course, Australia and Canada also have an attractive offer to international students and, therefore, it would be good to look at forming greater relationships between us. However, the bottom line is that there is no limit on genuine students studying at genuine universities in the UK, nor will there ever be one.

[Lord Hylton (CB)]

My Lords, is the Minister aware of the difficulties faced by Palestinian students, who first have to go to Jordan to get their visas, which involves passing through many Israeli checkpoints on the way, before paying a large fee? Do the Government already have discretion to waive fees for poor students, particularly for those coming for short visits to take part in a conference or a performance in this country, for example?

[Lord Bates]

Any plans to change the system on the fees depends on the relationship with the university in the UK. Presumably a relationship can be negotiated on the financial assistance which might be given to such students. Of course it would be entirely open to the universities to make such offers as they wish. However, it is an important part of the verification process to introduce television or visual interviews with students, because that has made a significant improvement in the quality and calibre of the students coming to our institutions.

[Baroness Rebuck (Lab)]

Although the Government rightly want to grow our economy by welcoming students from outside the EU, that pipeline is dwindling. Why? I am afraid that it is because the Home Office sends them back as soon as they graduate. Would the Minister consider the Australian model and ring-fence visas for those graduating with specialist skills; and—I declare an interest here—consider reintroducing automatic visas for postgraduates whose skills we need for our growing economy?

[Lord Bates]

In terms of numbers, the UK remains the second most attractive country in the world for students to come to. After they have studied, if they apply for a graduate-level skilled job—which certainly someone graduating in the sciences would be able to do—they would be welcome to transfer from the tier 4 visa to the tier 2 visa; if they want to stay on for an internship they can apply for a tier 5 visa; and if they want to set up a business they can stay on under the tier 1 visa. There are lots of opportunities for the brightest and best people to stay on, and we want that to continue.

[Viscount Hanworth (Lab)]

Some institutions surely take in rather few overseas students. Has it not occurred to the Government that a percentage threshold of visa refusals is entirely inappropriate in such cases? Might they not think of an alternative threshold in such cases?

[Lord Bates]

The threshold is there to trigger whether there is a potential abuse of the system. When we came into power in 2010 we inherited the old points-based system. This was poorly run and not robust and we wanted to strengthen it with tests. That is why we closed down 900 bogus colleges. At the same time as the clamp-down on the bogus aspects of it, we have seen an increase in the quality of students who are choosing to make their investment in education in the UK. That shows that the system is working.

[Lord Rosser (Lab)]

Reference has been made to the 125,000 credibility interviews a year carried out by the Home Office through UKVI in respect of overseas students offered places at accredited HE institutions with a refusal rate of over 10%. There is no right of appeal to an independent adjudicator nor any consultation with the HE institution concerned, yet a refusal rate of greater than 10% of places offered impacts on the future ability of the higher education institution concerned to recruit, since its allocation of places will be cut. In view of the concerns expressed, will the Minister offer to at least meet a delegation of vice-chancellors from the accredited HE institutions most affected, since I understand that they would much appreciate such a meeting to discuss the issues more fully with the Home Office Minister?

[Lord Bates]

As far as I am aware, possibly one or two of our major universities have had a problem with that threshold. Most do not come anywhere near it. There is an opportunity for someone who is turned down to appeal and have the decision looked at again by an independent manager. I have had a number of meetings with the noble Lord’s colleagues on this issue and am open to more. James Brokenshire continues to meet regularly with the Russell group and Universities UK to discuss their concerns because this is such an important part of our export offering and our cultural soft power.

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, net migration into this country was 336,000 last year. What percentage was students who, having completed their courses, went into the employment market?

[Lord Bates]

That is precisely one of the points that we want to get to from better information. The ONS, which is the independent provider, provides an estimate of the net number of people who came to study in the UK and did not leave. That estimate is 93,000. However, we do not know what proportion of that 93,000 has transferred from tier 4 to tier 2 or to another legitimate means of remaining. Because we now have exit checks we should be able to get that information, which we shall be able to use to provide some comfort in the future.

Prüm: UK Opt-in

Lord Bates Excerpts

Wednesday 9th December 2015 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Bates]

To move that this House supports Her Majesty’s Government’s decision to opt in to the Prüm decisions and the related safeguards put in place in respect of access to data by other States.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Bates) (Con)]

My Lords, we are here tonight to debate the Prüm decisions, an EU agreement named after a small German town in which the original Prüm treaty was signed. Prüm is about the sharing, in strictly controlled circumstances, of DNA profiles, fingerprints and vehicle registration data with other countries in order to prevent and investigate crime.

Before I discuss Prüm in more detail, I wish to address concerns raised by the Home Affairs Sub-Committee of the European Union Committee about the Government’s engagement on this matter. I apologise sincerely if we have left an impression of falling short of, or have actually fallen short of, what is expected of us. That certainly was not the Government’s intention and we sought to make that position clear to the noble Lord, Lord Boswell, and to the noble Baroness, Lady Prashar. The Command Paper we have produced is a document of great detail—it is some 250 pages in length—and quality, and I hope that noble Lords have had a chance to look at it properly. None the less, I apologise for those shortcomings and will endeavour to ensure that this does not happen again.

Let me now turn to the decisions contained in Prüm. It is important to be clear what Prüm is and what it is not. It is not—and this is an important point to remember—a centralised EU database. It is, instead, a system by which the front end of an existing manual process is automated so that more information can be made available for checking. This means that it would be quicker and easier for our police to check the national DNA, fingerprint and vehicle registration databases of 27 other member states, hugely increasing the reach of UK law enforcement. It is a system by which member states can find out whether a DNA crime scene profile is known to other countries, not after filling out manual forms, but automatically. It is a system by which the police, when arresting an individual, can ask other countries whether he or she is known to them by checking fingerprints. It is a system by which, in 10 seconds—rather than the months it can take at the moment—the police can find out details about a vehicle that is suspected of involvement in people trafficking. For DNA and fingerprints, Prüm responses are by way of a hit/no-hit system. Personal data are not exchanged as part of this process.

By way of example, for DNA, a crime scene profile is sent from one country to another, where it is automatically searched against the profiles held in that country’s database. If there is a match, the requesting country receives a “hit” report back. At that stage, no information is exchanged that would allow a person to be identified. Prior to any personal details being released, all hits must be verified scientifically. In broad terms, this is the same system for fingerprints, too. Hits are reported within 15 minutes for DNA and within 24 hours for fingerprints. With Interpol, the same manual process means the average time to report a hit is more than four months.

The House will be interested to know that we have run a small-scale DNA pilot to test the effectiveness of the Prüm decisions. I am delighted to say that that saw an impressive 118 hits, generating investigative leads for our police. That is nearly double the number of profiles our police sent abroad for checking in the whole of 2014. Crucially for the police, this is leading to the arrest of foreign nationals, which would not otherwise have taken place. They include an Eastern European arrested on suspicion of attempted rape as a direct result of the pilot; he is now in custody. Other cases have seen extradition papers requested.

However, noble Lords will be pleased to hear that the Government have listened carefully to the civil liberties concerns expressed by some and will ensure that stringent safeguards are in place. The Government will ensure that other member states can search against UK-held DNA profiles and fingerprints only for those who have actually been convicted of a recordable offence, thus avoiding innocent British citizens becoming caught up in overseas investigations. We will also legislate to ensure that we provide demographic details only if the hit is of a scientific standard equivalent to that which is required to report a hit to the police domestically, meaning that the chances of a hit being wrong are lower than one in a billion, so almost eliminating the risk of false positives. We will provide demographic details relating to minors only if a formal mutual legal assistance request has been made. Finally, we will establish an oversight board that includes both the information and biometrics commissioners in order to ensure that Prüm operates in a just and effective manner.

We know Prüm to be an effective crime-fighting tool, and I have just outlined how we will make sure that it operates in a proportionate manner. It is for these reasons that I support us signing up to Prüm, and I commend the Motion to the House.

[Baroness Prashar (CB)]

My Lords, I speak as the chairman of the European Union Home Affairs Sub-Committee which prepared the report to which the Motion in my name refers. For reasons that I shall describe later, the report has been prepared at great speed, and I thank all the members of the sub-committee and the staff both of the sub-committee and of the European Union Committee for their assistance. I also thank the Minister for his helpful introduction to the debate, and of course I accept his apologies. It is important that it should be recognised that there have been difficulties in terms of the scrutiny process.

The European Union Committee has scrutinised the UK Government’s position in relation to Prüm decisions since at least 2007. We subsequently considered the decisions in the context of the UK opt-out decision taken in 2013 and again in 2014. We said that failing to rejoin the Prüm decisions would mean that UK law enforcement agencies would no longer have automatic access to relevant databases in other member states, thus hindering investigations and prosecutions. The Home Secretary committed the Government to revisiting the question of whether the UK should rejoin Prüm before the end of this year, and said that it would be a decision for Parliament.

On 18 November 2015, the Immigration Minister, James Brokenshire, stated that he did not have a specific date for the publication of the Command Paper or for the vote, but he also suggested that it would be helpful if the committee could report on the issues to help inform the two Houses. We took him on that suggestion. But having set us on this path, just a week later the Home Secretary laid the Command Paper and subsequently announced that a debate would be held in the Commons on 8 December and today in this House. The result was that we had barely 10 days in which to scrutinise a lengthy and technical Command Paper and to prepare our report, which was published on Monday this week. Having said that, I make it clear that we support the Government’s recommendation that the UK should rejoin Prüm, and I am delighted to note that last night the House of Commons supported the Government’s position by an overwhelming majority of 503 to 26. It should also be noted that senior law enforcement officers support rejoining Prüm.

As the Minister has just said, Prüm allows member states to search each member state’s fingerprint and DNA databases through an automated system, and to have direct access to vehicle registration databases. In the case of DNA and fingerprint searches, while the initial search will be automated, no personal data are exchanged unless the member state conducting the search makes a follow-up request.

The benefits of Prüm both in terms of public protection and operational matters are clear. Currently, law enforcement agencies may make requests for sharing fingerprint, DNA and vehicle registration data through Interpol. The current Interpol processes do not require a timed response and a simple request may take months to process. Last night, the Home Secretary made reference to a case in which West Yorkshire Police undertook an investigation through Interpol where it took two and a half months for a match to be reported. In the mean time, the investigation ran up costs of £250,000. By contrast, the automated processes under Prüm set out mandatory times for responding to searches: 15 minutes in respect of DNA, 24 hours in respect of fingerprints, and just 10 seconds in the case of vehicle data. This speed allows law enforcement agencies to target their follow-up requests for personal data, and these requests are more likely to be accepted. Because of the increase in speed, the UK will also be able to make many more requests than it would be able to do currently. The automatic exchange of data relating to criminal investigations could therefore assist in the identification of serious offenders who might not otherwise be detected. It will speed up the process of investigation by eliminating lines of investigation or establishing the identity of an individual much earlier. This will save on the length and cost of such investigations and could lead to earlier arrests, thus preventing further crimes.

Prüm would also increase the intelligence capacity of law enforcement agencies. The regular flow of data is likely to shine new light on otherwise unsolved crimes. At present, there is no effective alternative mechanism for investigating volume crime; that is, cases where one individual commits a number of crimes. Only through Prüm can the bulk exchanges of data be made which help to facilitate the investigation of such crimes. Evidence also suggests that Prüm can help law enforcement agencies to identify patterns of crime or criminal associations that would not otherwise be apparent. Moreover, in the wake of the dire attacks on Paris last month, we are particularly conscious of the need to fight terrorism. Those attacks have been a reminder that terrorists operate across borders; therefore an increased capacity to identify individuals as early as possible, to conduct investigations and to detect patterns of international crime is essential in this fight.

However, Prüm is not without risks. We are particularly concerned that UK citizens may be identified as suspects of crime in other member states on the basis of false matches. The implementation of Prüm is likely to result in massive changes in how law enforcement bodies process data. While this will greatly help the police, the volume of data exchanged must come with safeguards. We must ensure that there is a balance between law enforcement and the protection of civil liberties. We therefore support the Government’s plan to implement safeguards.

We welcome the safeguard which would limit searches by other member states of fingerprints and DNA samples to those who have been convicted in the UK. The UK has the largest database of DNA samples in the EU. We believe that it is right that this and other biometric data should not be available for inspection by other member states in the case of UK citizens who have not been found guilty of a crime. The Government’s proposal to adopt higher standards on the accuracy of DNA matches than the minimum stipulated in the Prüm decisions is also welcome. This will reduce the probability of false positives. We also support the additional safeguard requiring other member states to prove that they are investigating a crime of sufficient seriousness before the personal data of minors are shared. However, I ask the Minister for confirmation that the additional safeguards that the Government propose to implement will be consistent with Prüm, and will not lead to any infringement proceedings by the Commission against the UK in the European Court of Justice.

Finally, we recognise that the increase in the volume of data requests will have an impact on police resources and that there will be other costs. However, we believe that the additional burden will be outweighed by the benefits to law enforcement of rejoining Prüm. It would be helpful if the noble Lord could confirm that the cost of implementation is likely to be less than was originally anticipated.

The committee agrees with the Government’s assessment, which is consistent with the views we have expressed over a number of years, that rejoining Prüm would be in the national interest. We therefore urge noble Lords to support the Government’s Motion.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Bates]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this debate. I particularly thank the noble Baroness, Lady Prashar, for moving her Motion alongside the one which I moved commending the decision, and for presenting the report of the sub-committee on home affairs. I also pay tribute to the work done by that committee in an incredibly short time, but with great thoroughness. That work is extremely helpful as we move forward.

I shall deal with the points raised by the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, under the broad heading of how we can improve the way in which the Home Office works with your Lordships’ House and interacts with it in these matters. We have dealt with this issue before. The noble Lord, Lord Boswell, has been very patient with us and we have had a number of meetings with the clerks. We are conscious of existing commitments and the scrutiny of European decisions—matters contained in the Companion. We want to respect those, so those issues are improving at an official level. However, often this is a fast-moving situation, or it can be. For example, decisions on the speed of adopting the measure and on moving ahead at a quicker rate resulted from meetings of the Justice and Home Affairs Council which took place in November. Therefore, these are fast-moving areas but we want to improve our performance. One of the ways in which I believe we can do that is to have more meetings with the noble Baroness and the committee she chairs to discuss projects in the pipeline that are coming upstream. However, we are conscious that we need to improve our performance.

[Lord Boswell of Aynho]

That is a very helpful suggestion. I know from experience that where we have had informal discussions with the Minister’s department that has been useful and has not led to any form of “producer capture” or any other potential moral hazard. It is important to realise that it is not simply a matter of fast-taken decisions at the end of the process; this is often preceded by a period of stasis where nothing has happened. As the Minister acknowledged, it would be very much better if we could have a reasonably easy flow of work and some advance heads-up as to things that are coming through, perhaps on an informal basis, so that we could plan our response and get the whole thing considered in a better timetable instead of this stop and start which has given rise to these difficulties in the past.

[Lord Bates]

I agree. I undertake that we will work hard on that. I realise that we will be held to account for our performance in these areas and it is right that that should be the case. As regards the point made by the noble Lords, Lord Paddick and Lord Blair, on why we did not do this a long time ago, we should also remember that what we are implementing now is perhaps a better approach, as set out in the Command Paper, because we have had the benefit of that year and of the business case implementation trial. As a result, we were able to come forward with a number of stronger safeguards. The noble Baroness referred to the one on DNA requiring 10 loci matches rather than six or eight, and that was accepted. There is also the provision of an oversight board and the particular way in which we are working.

There is a great piece set out in the Command Paper, which I urge noble Lords to consider, all about how the technical side of this actually works. One reason why the cost has fallen for an IT project is that the Government have not been idle since indicating that they wanted to join. They have been building the biometrics gateway, which means that now all we have to do is add on the additional element to connect with the different countries. That trial process of connecting with France, Spain and Germany enhanced that process significantly as well.

The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, asked who would actually look at the transfer of personal data. The answer is the National Crime Agency. In terms of the timing, we expect it to be operational by late 2017. In terms of legislation, affirmative resolutions will come before your Lordships’ House. We have set out in the Command Paper what that draft resolution will be. But again, that is something that will be under review and will be brought forward, normally about six months before the point of implementation.

Another safeguard is the fact that we have the Biometrics Commissioner and the Information Commissioner, so people in this country will have the opportunity to appeal. If they feel that information is being released wrongly, they will have the opportunity to respond to that and seek redress. We have received funding from the European Commission of some €10 million towards the cost of implementing this.

The noble Lord, Lord Blair, asked why we were joining now. The answer is that we are opting in at this stage. If we had opted in last year with the rest of the justice and home affairs package, our systems would not have been ready and there was a real risk that we would have been subject to infraction proceedings for being unable to meet the performance criteria that are set out, which would have cost a great deal of money as well. That was another reason why that happened.

[Lord Rosser]

The Government gave their reasons for the Prüm decisions not being among the 35 as time and money. Is the Minister really saying that the cost was such that it prevented the Government opting back in to the Prüm decisions earlier? Is he really saying that a Government who were determined to opt in and stay in as far as the Prüm decisions were concerned could not have done so in less than five and a half years—or what actually is now going to be seven years—during which this Government have been in office?

[Lord Bates]

These are not easy issues. As the noble Lord will know, the Labour Government signed up to this in 2007 and did not even put pen to paper between 2007 and 2010 on the Prüm decisions. This is not straightforward. It is not as if we have not been doing anything. We have the ECRIS criminal records information-sharing scheme with our European counterparts. We have Eurodac, which is about border security. Of course, we have also signed up to the Schengen information-sharing system, Schengen II. These are all elements which further build the case, I am happy to say to the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, for how a key part of our security comes from working closely with our European colleagues. Sharing information of this nature will make us all a great deal safer. The fact is that we can do that in a European context, whereas when it comes to Interpol there are 189 members. The prospect of perhaps exchanging DNA-sharing databases with the Russians or one other member might be a little more difficult for us to propose in your Lordships’ House. The reality is that there are safeguards there and we are working with our European colleagues. We believe that the system being proposed—

[Lord Blair of Boughton]

I am immensely in favour of the decision that the Government have taken, but is it reasonable to say that it will take another two years? I really do not understand that decision. If the Minister was able to do so, I would like him to write to me and to others to say why it will take two years from now. He was talking about late 2017. We have seen the events in Europe. Why cannot the Government now advance this at speed? Two years is simply an unsupportable position.

[Lord Bates]

I hear what the noble Lord says. I would be very happy to set up a meeting with officials from the Home Office technology team who are working on this to explain the complexities. They are in part technological but are also to do with how we interact on devolved matters with other parts of the United Kingdom, where there are some particular sensitivities and agreements to be reached, for example with the Police Service of Northern Ireland and the Police Service of Scotland. That is one reason why both those parties will be present on the oversight board. Rather than going into it here, it might be helpful to all concerned if that meeting were to be arranged. We could then hear and understand a bit more about the complexity of the task, which I am in no doubt is significantly complex.

We have set out in the Command Paper some of the processes that need to be gone through from a technical point of view but I am happy to set up a meeting so that we can assure ourselves that everything is being done, once the decision has been taken to implement this as quickly as possible. The European Commission also needs to undertake inspection visits to ensure that we are capable of meeting those stringent criteria so that that can happen. With all that, I am grateful none the less for the home affairs sub-committee’s support. I am grateful for the contributions of Members of your Lordships’ House and very happy to continue a dialogue on this, as we move forward to something which we all agree will improve the safety of the people of the United Kingdom and of Europe.

Motion agreed.

Equipment Interference (Code of Practice) Order 2015

Lord Bates Excerpts

Wednesday 9th December 2015 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Bates]

That the draft orders laid before the House on 4 and 9 November be approved.

Relevant documents: 14th Report from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee, 9th and 11th Reports from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments (Special attention drawn to the instruments). Considered in Grand Committee on 7 December.

Motions agreed.

Regulation of Investigatory Powers (Interception of Communications: Code of Practice) Order 2015

Lord Bates Excerpts

Monday 7th December 2015 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Lord Bates]

That the Grand Committee do consider the Regulation of Investigatory Powers (Interception of Communications: Code of Practice) Order 2015.

Relevant documents: 14th Report from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee, 11th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments (Special attention drawn to the instrument)

Motion agreed.

Equipment Interference (Code of Practice) Order 2015

Lord Bates Excerpts

Monday 7th December 2015 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Lord Bates]

That the Grand Committee do consider the Equipment Interference (Code of Practice) Order 2015.

Relevant documents: 14th Report from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee, 11th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments (Special attention drawn to the instrument)

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Bates) (Con)]

My Lords, with the leave of the Committee I will also speak to the Regulation of Investigatory Powers (Interception of Communications: Code of Practice) Order 2015.

Members will know that on 4 November 2015 the Government published draft legislation relating to the security, intelligence and law enforcement agencies’ use of investigatory powers for pre-legislative scrutiny by a Joint Committee of Parliament. The intention is for the Bill to be introduced early in 2016 and enacted before the sunset provision in the Data Retention and Investigatory Powers Act 2014 takes effect on 31 December 2016. In the mean time, the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 and the codes of practice made under it provide the legal basis for the essential investigatory techniques necessary to acquire the communications of those who mean us harm. Today we debate two codes of practice made under the existing legislation: an update of the existing code of practice on the interception of communications and a new code on equipment interference.

Interception is a vital tool that helps law enforcement and intelligence agencies to prevent and detect serious or organised crime and protect national security. It is also among the most intrusive powers available to law enforcement and the security agencies. For that reason, it is subject to strict safeguards in the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 and the code made under it. Interception warrants are issued and renewed by the Secretary of State for a small number of agencies and for a strictly limited range of purposes. RIPA also provides for independent oversight by the Interception of Communications Commissioner and an impartial route of redress through the Investigatory Powers Tribunal.

The interception of communications code of practice first came into force in 2002 and needs updating. There is now far more that can be said about the safeguards that apply to security and law enforcement agencies’ exercise of interception powers and the revised version of the code includes that extra detail. On what is new in the code of practice, the safeguards described in these codes are not new in themselves. In respect of the interception code, the law enforcement and intelligence agencies have always had robust internal arrangements, overseen by the Interception of Communications Commissioner. The draft code provides more detail about those arrangements.

First, it provides additional information on the safeguards that exist for the interception and handling of external communications under Section 8(4) of RIPA—that is, the ability to undertake bulk interception. Secondly, it sets out further information on the protections afforded to legally privileged material and other confidential material. To give an example, the code requires the Secretary of State personally to consider the likelihood that privileged material will be intercepted when determining whether it is necessary and proportionate to grant a warrant. It also requires additional internal safeguards to be applied in cases where legally privileged material is intercepted, including that where such material is retained it must be reported to the independent Interception of Communications Commissioner. Thirdly, it includes minor changes to reflect developments in law and practice since the code first came into force in 2002. For example, it reflects regulations introduced in 2011 which amended RIPA to create the power for the interception commissioner to impose a fine for certain kinds of unlawful interception. Much of the new material on the safeguards that apply to the exercise of interception powers reflects information disclosed during legal proceedings in the Investigatory Powers Tribunal, and it is right that this information is included in codes of practice so that it easy for members of the public to access it.

The equipment interference code of practice is new. Equipment interference is a set of techniques used to obtain a variety of data from equipment. This includes traditional computers or computer-like devices such as tablets, smartphones, cables, wires and static storage devices. Equipment interference can be carried out either remotely or by physically interacting with equipment. It allows the security and intelligence agencies in particular to keep pace with terrorists and serious criminals, who increasingly use sophisticated techniques to communicate covertly and evade detection. Equipment interference has been instrumental in disrupting credible threats to life, including those against UK citizens. MI5 has relied on this capability in the overwhelming majority of high-priority investigations it has undertaken over the past 12 months.

The Security Service Act 1989 and the Intelligence Services Act 1994 provide the legislative basis for the security and intelligence agencies to interfere with computers and communications devices. Warrants may be issued by the Secretary of State only when he or she considers the activities to be authorised are necessary and proportionate. The use of the powers is subject to independent oversight by the Intelligence Services Commissioner. Prior to the draft code, which we are debating today, equipment interference powers have not had their own bespoke code of practice.

The code does not confer new powers, but simply makes public the robust internal safeguards that the intelligence agencies already apply. It brings greater transparency to the robust processes that the agencies adhere to when interfering with computer equipment to prevent terrorism, disrupt serious crime and identify and stop others who seek to harm us and our country. For the first time, this code of practice publicly sets out the stringent safeguards that the intelligence agencies apply to their use of equipment interference. This includes strict rules on how data acquired through equipment interference must be handled, how they must be securely and safely stored, and how they must be destroyed when it is no longer necessary or proportionate to hold them. The code also explains the consideration of necessity and proportionality that the Secretary of State must take before authorising any use of equipment interference. That ensures that this vital capability may be used only when the scope of the interference has been carefully considered and compared to the potential benefits of the operation. Furthermore, the code explains that equipment interference should not be considered a proportionate power if other less intrusive methods of acquiring the same data are possible.

Akin to the interception code of practice, this document also provides reassurance that the acquisition of legally privileged and confidential information is subject to even greater oversight and safeguards. The code sets out a series of tests that must be applied before any authorisation is granted and then the subsequent handling arrangements, should confidential material be acquired.

Finally, the code also provides information regarding the use of equipment interference targeted at equipment outside the British Isles. This section ensures that the public have a comprehensive guide to the use of equipment interference powers by the intelligence agencies and the range of safeguards and oversight that applies to such important activity.

The codes of practice contain no new powers; instead, they reflect the current safeguards applied by the relevant agencies. The purpose of the codes is to make more information publicly available about the stringent safeguards that the agencies apply in their use of investigatory powers. They ensure that the powers can be used only when it is necessary and proportionate and when it will help keep us safe from harm. I commend the orders to the House.

[Lord Paddick (LD)]

My Lords, I must first say that I am not an expert in this area. Our expert on this matter is on the Joint scrutiny Committee, which is about to sit. That is why he is not here. For this to come up when the people considering the draft investigatory powers Bill are elsewhere and engaged in that business is rather an unfortunate clash of tabling.

We are very concerned about interception, but that is and has been a widely known and accepted practice over the years, although the nature of that interception has obviously changed as means of communication have changed. It tends to be specific and targeted at particular individuals who, as the Minister said, intend to cause us harm or who are involved in serious crime. The code of practice on interception, which, as the Minister said, is an updated code of practice rather than a completely new one, is not the major area of concern for us.

We are very concerned about the use of equipment interference and the fact that very little—if any—debate has taken place, in Parliament or outside, about the use of these powers. While the Minister points to legislation that the security services rely on to carry out equipment interference, explicitly setting out what that means was not part of the discussion when those pieces of legislation were presented to Parliament. While what interception of communications involves is reasonably straightforward, equipment interference potentially means gaining complete access to a computer, for example. Speaking for myself, my life is on my computer. Therefore, if there were intrusion through equipment interference on to my computer, practically everything about me would be learnt by the security services, including websites I had visited and passwords that would give access to, for example, online banking. It is a much more intrusive power for the police and the security services than interception.

Hacking into computers and mobile phones was made an offence in the Computer Misuse Act 1990. My understanding is that a clause introduced in the then Serious Crime Bill 2015 exempted the police and the security services from that provision. Does the Minister accept that engagement in equipment interference by the police and the security services between 1990 and 2015 must therefore have been illegal because it was an offence under the Computer Misuse Act 1990, the exemption not coming in until 2015?

As far as I can see, the equipment interference code of practice relates only to the security services. There is no mention of equipment interference being used by the police. Again, I am not an expert on this, but it would appear that the police have to rely on legislation that allows them to interfere with property. That was intended for planting bugs in homes or offices—that sort of thing—rather than interfering with computers. Will the Minister say what the code of practice is for police use of equipment interference, as opposed to that of the security services?

There is also serious concern about general warrants being issued for equipment interference, rather than for named individuals. Indeed, the Intelligence Services Commissioner’s latest report expressed concern that GCHQ was using thematic warrants for equipment interference. How many thematic warrants have been issued?

I have another question for the Minister: why are the Government bringing forward these orders now, when the primary legislation on which they are based is currently being completely reviewed? As he said, the Joint Committee on the Draft Investigatory Powers Bill is currently looking at the primary legislation, so why now?

Among other things, the Government have produced HM Government Transparency Report 2015: Disruptive and Investigatory Powers. I cannot find any reference in it to equipment interference. As the Government are being transparent about these things, can the Minister assist me with where we can learn how much equipment interference has been going on?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab)]

My Lords, the orders before us today are important. They are tools to obtain evidence of suspected wrongdoing. I can tell the noble Lord that the Opposition support both orders, although we have some concerns. There has to be a balance between the scope of the powers exercised by the state and the rights of individuals who are subject to the exercise of those powers.

The noble Lord will, I am sure, be aware of the concerns raised by the Bar Council in relation to legal privilege. It would be helpful if he could say something about the safeguards against interference with privileged communications and, in particular, how the equipment interference order could result in the acquisition of matters subject to legal privilege, as well as what steps are being taken to mitigate such a risk. What I am looking for today from the noble Lord, Lord Bates, is more reassurance that the balance has been properly fixed. Clearly, technology is moving very fast and I am supportive of the Government ensuring, on the one hand, that the powers are appropriate and up to date and, on the other, that the procedures are properly codified and people’s rights are respected. I also understand that the orders are likely to be in force for only a short time, as of course we will be having the new Bill, which has to be on the statute book by the end of next year.

It would be helpful if the noble Lord could explain to the Committee a bit more about the safeguards that are in place, particularly in relation to the interception of communications code. Can he also say a bit more about the equipment interference code? As he said, it confers no new powers but simply sets out those powers and the safeguards that are in place. The noble Lord, Lord Paddick, suggests that new powers are being conferred, so the comments of the two noble Lords contrast somewhat. Therefore, we need to be clear about whether there are new powers in this code. If the noble Lord says that there are not, can he set out for the Committee why he believes that he is correct and the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, is wrong in that respect? Having said that, the Opposition support the orders.

[Lord Bates]

First, scheduling business is a matter entirely in the inscrutable hands of the Whips’ Office and usual channels. The Home Office has no influence on that. I take it that the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, was referring to the noble Lord, Lord Strasburger, who plays a very important role in the pre-legislative scrutiny of the investigatory powers Bill at present. Of course, we appreciate his expertise in this area. I am sure he will bring that fully to bear when the Bill comes before your Lordships’ House later. Let me try to deal with some of the points that the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, raised.

One was: why choose to do this now when we have legislation going through? I alluded to part of the reason in my opening speech, relating to current or recent cases that have gone through the Investigatory Powers Tribunal service. There is always a balance to be struck there. The legislation proposed is just that: it is proposed—it is not on the statute book. We need to make sure that the powers are in place appropriately and that the code is kept up to date for the purposes of activities that happen in the interim.

That is an important element as well, which I would convey through the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, back to the noble Lord, Lord Strasburger. Given the noble Lord’s strong interest in these areas, I assume he would welcome these codes of practice being kept up to date in the light of case law going through the tribunal and, in particular, in relation to equipment interference. Effectively, there are now 18 pages of guidance that were previously not in the public domain. Those can now be scrutinised and reviewed. They are there to be reviewed by the committee currently sitting, should it so wish. All the way through this process with investigatory powers legislation, we are trying to make sure, at the same time, that the security services have the tools they need to do their job and that we keep the public on our side in feeling that the powers exercised—which are intrusive in certain cases—are necessary and proportionate.

I pay tribute to the work of the noble Lord, Lord Jones, on the Intelligence and Security Committee in the other place. He knows all too well about the work going on. In that context, he will be aware that the powers we are talking about are not notional or academic. Elements of investigatory powers are deployed in response to the majority of serious and organised crime, such as the seven terrorist acts over the past year prevented by the security services. I certainly join the noble Lord in paying tribute to the work those services do to keep us safe.

I shall deal with some of the other issues raised. I will come back to the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, that in a sense our argument is that there is nothing new here and, at the same time, we are introducing some new measures. I will be able to tell him what is new in this.

The noble Lord, Lord Paddick, asked if, before now, it was an offence under the Computer Misuse Act to interfere with equipment. The answer is no. The powers to undertake equipment interference are contained in the Intelligence Services Act 1994 and the Police Act 1997, so we do not believe that at any point the police or security services have operated outside their powers. The noble Lord asked about the number of thematic equipment interference warrants that have been requested. That information is not collected centrally at present. Of course, we also have as part of the investigatory powers a quite sophisticated system of commissioners who oversee these processes, to whom those who feel that their rights have been trespassed on wrongly can go to seek redress—either directly through the commissioner or through the tribunal. Of course, that happens.